Product formats

[Michelle Allen]

Hi Everyone,

Dan and I have been playing around with the idea of having different
product formats.

Depending on the type of product you would like to create would then
determine what meta boxes are displayed on the add / edit product
page for the user to edit.

This should hopefully make it a bit more clear to store owners what is
required and not required for each product type that they are
creating.

Different product types we can think of and have included so far:

Simple: The most basic of the product types, you will still be able to
set up shipping options, price, stock, product categories and tags.
However you will not be able to create variations, an off site product
link, adjust the tax settings (your default tax will still be set), or
add an additional description. This product is probably suitable if
you don't need to create a downloadable or variation product.

Advanced: The advanced product will allow you to set all product
options for your product you will not be able to apply variations or
downloadable files to your product.

Variation: Use this product type for creating products with
variations. (eg Size, Colour)

Downloadable: Use this product type for creating downloadable products
with files associated to them.
There are a few problems up front that I can think of, the first one
is what if the user wants to create a downloadable product with
variations (does this just become another product type?)

Really just testing the water here to see if this could make it easier
for people adding products, so we would love some feedback, perhaps
there is a cleaver way to go? Maybe we still display all meta boxes
but the have a *required message in them for the options that are
required to created that type of product.

Better yet if we know what type of product they are creating (eg
downloadable) then do we automatically set options that we know are
required for this type of product? (eg disable shipping for this
product , set the weight to n/a)

At the end of the day its all about making it easier for people and
been as cleaver as we can be with our settings and error messaging.

so there you have it, if anyone has any ideas (similar or completely
different) then we would love to hear them.

Michelle

[Michelle]

Ops see screen shots attached!

[James Collins]

Hi Michelle,

I think we need to step back and clarify what the purpose of these product "formats" is.

WordPress' Post Formats are used to present/display posts differently when viewing the website. 

However in this case it sounds like Product Formats would be used to display the backend edit product interface differently?

I'm wondering if this would cause extra confusion for people, because post formats are for frontend, and product formats would be for backend?

When upgrading to WordPress 3.1, some of the post/page edit metaboxes were hidden by default. The aim of this was to simplify the edit post/page interface by hiding metaboxes that aren't used by a majority of website owners.

For more advanced website owners, they can then use the "Screen Options" to display more advanced metaboxes that are hidden by default.

Perhaps the hiding advanced metaboxes by default is a better approach?

Currently we have the following metaboxes available on the edit product screen. 

I have bolded the ones that I think should be enabled by default. 

The remaining ones could be hidden by default for new WPEC installations (and manually enabled using screen options for users that need to use them):

• Product Tags
• Product Categories 
• Price Control 
• Stock Control
• Taxes
• Slug
• Variations
• Off Site Product link 
• Additional Description 
• Product Download 
• Product Images
• Shipping 
• Advanced Settings 

We could also be clever and always hide the Tax metabox unless taxes are enabled. Similarly for Shipping.

What do you think?

James

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[Agus MU]

Hi Michele,

Product Formats remind me to Post Formats. So, if we really want to
have product formats for WP E-Commerce, I think we can use Posts
Formats admin UI from Alex King, check this,
http://alexking.org/blog/2011/10/25/wordpress-post-formats-admin-ui
So, it will be very easy for our buyers to choose the product format
when creating a product... I think it is better than adding product
formats metabox in the "side" part.

By the way, are these product formats inspired by WPEC competitors,
JigoShop/WooCommerce? If yes, I think it is okay to review their
product formats (or they call them product types). So, we can make
better&complete decision for us from their experiences... no need to
reinvent the wheel, right?

==== JIGOSHOP ====

Simple : General product format
Virtual : nothing is shipped, nothing is downloaded (ex: service)
Downloadable : digital product, nothing is shipped
Variable/configurable : support product with variations
Grouped: a product collection, containing multiple simple products

==== WOOCOMMERCE (v1.2+) ====

Simple: general product format, there are options to make it virtual
and downloadable
Variable/configurable: support product with variations, there are
options to make every variations to be virtual and downloadable
External: support external product link (offsite product in WP E-
Commerce)
Grouped: a product collection, containing multiple simple products

When reading your post, i think there is confusion between your simple
& advanced product formats... What options that will be available only
for advanced product formats?

Best Regards,
Agus

>  productoformat2.png
> 48KViewDownload
>
>  productoformat1.png
> 135KViewDownload

[Tracey Kemp]

Hi Michelle,

I've been thinking about this for some time as I have been building band/music related sites and currently sell a combination of tickets and physical products on one site (with downloadables to be added soon). 

I think variations should be kept completely out of the mix if you're thinking about product types. Any product type is likely to have variations and that will differ for every user.

To add to Agus' comparison of other shopping carts, I quite like the way Shopp handle product types. They have Shipped (default - physical product), Virtual (tickets etc), Download (file download) and Donation. Shipped allows shipping options but the others offer a handling fee to cover any extra charges. This product type is actually set on the Variations level which is quite handy, say if you had a product like software or mp3s and you wanted to offer 2 options - to download or to be sent a disc. You would be able to to assign different formats to each variation. I think this is a common scenario these days so is very useful.

I'm inclined to agree with James about the showing/hiding of certain options by default, to remove the clutter.

I do like the idea of a Grouped product type though. I can definitely see where that would be awesome to have.

Cheers,

Tracey

Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg

web design & development | print design & finished art

PORTFOLIO: http://dogshindleg.com

ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT: http://zombiedogentertainment.com

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[dan.milward]

At this stage folks 'nothing' is set in stone. We just spent an
afternoon playing with a concept.
We want to gather feedback from you guys and do it right. The goal
being to make running you shop quicker and easier.
Tracey can you elaborate on product grouping for me. My understanding
is that you want to be able to create a product, give it a price, then
essentially attach other products to that product, either that or the
new product price is the combined price of all the attached products
in the group.
Which is better? Maybe the option for both?
Best,Dan

On Nov 21, 3:40 pm, Tracey Kemp <tra...@dogshindleg.com> wrote:
> Hi Michelle,
>
> I've been thinking about this for some time as I have been building
> band/music related sites and currently sell a combination of tickets and
> physical products on one site (with downloadables to be added soon).
>
> I think variations should be kept completely out of the mix if you're
> thinking about product types. Any product type is likely to have variations
> and that will differ for every user.
>
> To add to Agus' comparison of other shopping carts, I quite like the way

> Shopp handle product types. They have *Shipped* (default - physical
> product), *Virtual* (tickets etc), *Download* (file download) and *Donation*.

> Shipped allows shipping options but the others offer a handling fee to
> cover any extra charges. This product type is actually set on the
> Variations level which is quite handy, say if you had a product like
> software or mp3s and you wanted to offer 2 options - to download or to be
> sent a disc. You would be able to to assign different formats to each
> variation. I think this is a common scenario these days so is very useful.
>
> I'm inclined to agree with James about the showing/hiding of certain
> options by default, to remove the clutter.
>

> I do like the idea of a *Grouped* product type though. I can definitely see

> where that would be awesome to have.
>
> Cheers,
> Tracey
>
> Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
> skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg
> web design & development | print design & finished art
> PORTFOLIO:http://dogshindleg.com
> <http://dogshindleg.com>ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT:http://zombiedogentertainment.com
>

[Tracey Kemp]

I've actually never thought about it, Dan. I just noticed Agus mentioned it in relation to JigoShop and WooCommerce and I think it sounds like a cool idea. I haven't checked those out to see how they're being used, though.

Off the top of my head, I'd probably say you'd probably use it in the following situations: 

Scenario 1

Product A = $10

Product B = $10

Product C = $10

Product Group 1 = Products A + B + C possibly for a discounted total 

So in this scenario you'd want the group price to be able to override the total of the single products by either setting a fixed price eg $25 or like you can with variations, setting -5% or -$5 whatever your discount is.

Having said that, it would be possible to do this discount pretty easily with the Promotions system I outlined the other day but displaying it as a product in itself is another matter and that's where this would come in handy. It's pretty much another way of doing deals and combos.

Scenario 2

What I reckon would be really cool, and it's not really the same thing but I guess it's related somewhat, is to be able to have single products act almost like variations. Say you sell framed posters and you have single frames but you want to offer the option of having 3 posters in 1 frame. It would be great to have a product group where you could allow customers to select 3 out of the relevant single poster products that you've added to the group. I have ideas on how this could work UX-wise. If you're keen I'd be happy to mock them up.

I'm sure there's plenty more you could do with groups but it's late and my brain power is fading! Hope that helps in any case.

Cheers,

Tracey

Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg

web design & development | print design & finished art

PORTFOLIO: http://dogshindleg.com

ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT: http://zombiedogentertainment.com

[Agus MU]

Dan and Tracey,

More information, in JigoShop / WooCommerce, you can go to Products > Add New, and choose "Grouped" product type. This product type doesn't have any product options (no price, etc). Then you can create/edit some simple products and choose a grouped product for this product parent... So, there is a big limitation here, a simple product can be attached only to a grouped product...

So, Tracey's scenarios below are great to follow. I think it is good idea to add "product collection" feature to WPEC.

Regards,
Agus

[Ben Huson]

I agree that "Product Formats" would be confusing and "Product Types"
would be a better label.

I like the idea of initially hiding the less frequently used meta
boxes and being able to then add them via screen options.

Grouped product is also a good idea - a good way to package a
collection of products at a lower price.

I agree with Tracey about variations. All product types could
essentially use variations and potentially your variations might be
different types (eg download and physical product) so that would need
some thinking through

- Ben

[Amanda Blum]

Well, Jigo/Woo didn't come upw ith those options, its clearly pulled
from Magento. That said, the options in Magento never work well, say
on "configurable" and are confusing. So what I'd love to here here are
perhaps better examples of what you're selling. Clearly, there are
physical and virtual products. I'd argue that a virtual product is the
same as a download.

Virtual
Donation
Simple product (no options. 1 item, 1 size/color, 1 price)
Complicated Product (has options. Sizes, colors, etc)

what else though. does this accurately reflect what you're selling?

[Zao Web Design, LLC]

Indeed, I'd argue the only difference between virtual and downloadable is the Product Files box, as you wouldn't necessarily have a file to download every time for a Virtual Product (could be a service, deposit, whatever).

Thanks,

M. Justin Sainton
Zao Web Design, LLC
Principal / Project Manager
http://www.zaowebdesign.com
(c) 971.222.6330
(f) 1.413.723.0396

[Ben Huson]

I'm still a bit confused about how this might work...

For instance a "donation" product might still have variations and a
Virtual Product might also be a donation.

What is the main goal....?
To improve the ease of creating products for the user?

Are we possibly just talking about hiding more advanced panels that
the user can then opt to show if required?

I know other systems sometimes have a "product type" approach but is
that the best solution?

- Ben

[Dan Milward]

I'm hearing you Ben.

I think we're talking about customizing / improving the WP e-Commerce Plugin experience by tailoring it to the shop owners usage.

This is really just an opportunity to discuss whether this is a good idea, and if it is, what is the best implementation. I too think that the words Product Types are better then Product Formats.

Best,
Dan

[Dan Milward]

Thanks for the ideas Tracey. Does anybody want to have a crack at making this into a Plugin?

Best,
Dan

[Amanda Blum]

Look. There are 800 different ecomm possibilities, and they all do
products differently. Lets think less about how we do things, how Jigo/
woo does them, Shopp, etc. Lets just boil it down to "what are we
selling". Lets start there.

I think we can solve the "this actual product or virtual product is
paid for by a donation" by instead having an option "set your own
price". Donations, when they have variations are no longer donations.
its a product. A donation is a very simple thing.

We have to decide... how do we define product types... by how you get
them? how you pay for them?

So I ask again.. what are we really selling?

A

On Nov 21, 3:56 pm, Dan Milward <d...@instinct.co.nz> wrote:
> Thanks for the ideas Tracey. Does anybody want to have a crack at making this into a Plugin?
>
> Best,
> Dan
>
> On 22/11/11 12:42 AM, Agus MU wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dan and Tracey,
>
> > More information, in JigoShop / WooCommerce, you can go to Products > Add New, and choose "Grouped" product type. This product type doesn't have any product options (no price, etc). Then you can create/edit some simple products and choose a grouped product for this product parent... So, there is a big limitation here, a simple product can be attached only to a grouped product...
>
> > So, Tracey's scenarios below are great to follow. I think it is good idea to add "product collection" feature to WPEC.
>
> > Regards,
> > Agus
>

> > On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Tracey Kemp <tra...@dogshindleg.com <mailto:tra...@dogshindleg.com>> wrote:
>
> >     I've actually never thought about it, Dan. I just noticed Agus mentioned it in relation to JigoShop and WooCommerce and I think it sounds like a cool idea. I haven't checked those out to see how they're being used, though.
>
> >     Off the top of my head, I'd probably say you'd probably use it in the following situations:
>

> >     *Scenario 1*

> >     Product A = $10
> >     Product B = $10
> >     Product C = $10
> >     Product Group 1 = Products A + B + C possibly for a discounted total
> >     So in this scenario you'd want the group price to be able to override the total of the single products by either setting a fixed price eg $25 or like you can with variations, setting -5% or -$5 whatever your discount is.
> >     Having said that, it would be possible to do this discount pretty easily with the Promotions system I outlined the other day but displaying it as a product in itself is another matter and that's where this would come in handy. It's pretty much another way of doing deals and combos.
>

> >     *Scenario 2*

> >     What I reckon would be really cool, and it's not really the same thing but I guess it's related somewhat, is to be able to have single products act almost like variations. Say you sell framed posters and you have single frames but you want to offer the option of having 3 posters in 1 frame. It would be great to have a product group where you could allow customers to select 3 out of the relevant single poster products that you've added to the group. I have ideas on how this could work UX-wise. If you're keen I'd be happy to mock them up.
>
> >     I'm sure there's plenty more you could do with groups but it's late and my brain power is fading! Hope that helps in any case.
>
> >     Cheers,
> >     Tracey
>

> >     Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493 <tel:%2B61%20418%20483%20493>

> >     skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg
> >     web design & development | print design & finished art
> >     PORTFOLIO:http://dogshindleg.com
> >     ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT:http://zombiedogentertainment.com
>

> >     On 21 November 2011 21:19, dan.milward <dan.milw...@gmail.com <mailto:dan.milw...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >         At this stage folks 'nothing' is set in stone. We just spent an
> >         afternoon playing with a concept.
> >         We want to gather feedback from you guys and do it right. The goal
> >         being to make running you shop quicker and easier.
> >         Tracey can you elaborate on product grouping for me. My understanding
> >         is that you want to be able to create a product, give it a price, then
> >         essentially attach other products to that product, either that or the
> >         new product price is the combined price of all the attached products
> >         in the group.
> >         Which is better? Maybe the option for both?
> >         Best,Dan

> >         On Nov 21, 3:40 pm, Tracey Kemp <tra...@dogshindleg.com <mailto:tra...@dogshindleg.com>> wrote:
> >         > Hi Michelle,
>
> >         > I've been thinking about this for some time as I have been building
> >         > band/music related sites and currently sell a combination of tickets and
> >         > physical products on one site (with downloadables to be added soon).
>
> >         > I think variations should be kept completely out of the mix if you're
> >         > thinking about product types. Any product type is likely to have variations
> >         > and that will differ for every user.
>
> >         > To add to Agus' comparison of other shopping carts, I quite like the way
> >         > Shopp handle product types. They have *Shipped* (default - physical
> >         > product), *Virtual* (tickets etc), *Download* (file download) and *Donation*.
> >         > Shipped allows shipping options but the others offer a handling fee to
> >         > cover any extra charges. This product type is actually set on the
> >         > Variations level which is quite handy, say if you had a product like
> >         > software or mp3s and you wanted to offer 2 options - to download or to be
> >         > sent a disc. You would be able to to assign different formats to each
> >         > variation. I think this is a common scenario these days so is very useful.
>
> >         > I'm inclined to agree with James about the showing/hiding of certain
> >         > options by default, to remove the clutter.
>
> >         > I do like the idea of a *Grouped* product type though. I can definitely see
> >         > where that would be awesome to have.
>
> >         > Cheers,
> >         > Tracey
>

> >         > Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493 <tel:%2B61%20418%20483%20493>

> >         > skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg
> >         > web design & development | print design & finished art
> >         > PORTFOLIO:http://dogshindleg.com
> >         > <http://dogshindleg.com>ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT:http://zombiedogentertainment.com
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Michelle]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the feedback here its exactly what we were after. Excuse my reply if its a bit jumbled - I started writing it last night as everyones feedback was coming in, since then I have rethought a few things and read through more replies... but anyway..

The main idea is to improve user experience and reduce errors. We thought that by having a product type (I agree product type makes more sense) that we could display the meta boxes tailored to the product they want to create. The idea here is its meant to make it easier and force the user to fill out everything they require for the product to function. eg if its a downloadable product type then it must have a file associated with it. If we had a list of required information (required as in wp-e-commerce requires the product has that setting for it to function correctly right through to checkout) for each product type then error checking could be alot quicker. The user could be notified when they create their product that they are missing some key information required for this product wont work at checkout.

So my next question is - could we use the product type to show hide the meta boxes we know wont conflict (ie downloadable product must display file upload and no shipping) but also use it more as a way to validate that the user has filled in all the required information for their product type. If they have filled in extra options then thats ok to but at least we can gather an idea about the type of product they are trying to create and give them some feedback on things that could cause issues.

I think we could be move cleaver, If people upload a file to their product - then its a downloadable product so we don't need to have shipping options, and "don't use shipping should be selected"  Im sure there are other options like this that can be set.

"We could also be clever and always hide the Tax metabox unless taxes are

enabled. Similarly for Shipping." - This is a good idea James and we should really do this.

We currently do have screen options, the problem I have with hiding meta boxes be default (Although I agree the bolded ones are the important ones to show) is that some users just don't know to look there. So if one of two don't know then it causes problems. In this case I guess leave the screen options how they are and just let the advanced users hide what they need to? Unless there is a way we can draw new shop owners attention to the screen options.

For group options and pricing - I think Justin made a category pricing plugin for this its on the getshopped community plugins page, this could be a good place to start.

Im kind of unsure what would be the advantage of grouped products over just different product categories. I think coupon conditions could be worked on to allow greater control over categories and individual products.  The coupons could also be expanded to include things like group discounts - where a coupon is not required you can just set a group of conditions for the product category - eg if 5 or more products from category a are bought then they are $2.00 each (or perhaps we can extends this to branch over multiple categories)

Either way I think that a discount interface as apposed to just coupons could be a better way to tackle product groups, this would provide more flexibility for coupons and running in store promotions that don't require coupons. - Tracys Scenario's could be achieved with a store promotion interface, are there any other reason why we would have a product group apart from to apply discounts or set up multi buys for?

Michelle

[Zao Web Design, LLC]

The idea, overall, has quite a bit of merit (we should definitely implement some iteration of this), it just needs to be conceptually divorced from the Post Format concept.  Very different purposes.  

That said, I do really like the UI from Alex King's post format plugin, so if we borrowed from that for UI, I don't think that would be a bad thing.  As far as building this into a plugin goes - we should define what this is before anyone starts building.  

If all we're talking about is A) defining sub-sets of metaboxes that should be displayed and B) a UI to display those - then all we have to do is decide which boxes belong in which subset.  If we borrow from Alex King's UI, "B" is taken care of, as far as "A" goes, here's my thoughts -

1. Hide Advanced metaboxes by default
1. I think probably the best way to go about this is to have James' list (which is spot on) for new installs, and for upgrades, we should never hide boxes that already have user-entered data in them.
2. Product Types
1. Physical / Standard - This is would be the standard layout we currently have, nothing hidden.
2. Virtual / Downloadable -  Would show all of James' default list, +Variations, Product Download, conditionally Taxes, if enabled in Settings.
3. Grouped / Colleciton - To me, this would require a separate metabox.  I don't think we'd need to limit it to only allowing standard products.  I'd envision a UI similar to the internal linking UI in WordPress.  Search for a product, select it (and as many others as you want).  We could perhaps show the actual total price of those and then allow the admin to select an alternate price . That price could be a flat rate or a variable (-10%, -$50.00, etc.).  A simple, but powerful UI here would be key - with that, I think this could be a great feature.
4. Offsite / Affiliate - Basically hide everything except the Offsite Product Link box.  A discussion needs to be had with this model regarding drop-shipping (add it to core or build it as a plugin, because people ask for this all the time) - but that's a separate conversation.

As far as Ben's questions re: donations go, that would be irrelevant, as Donations are part of the pricing structure (therefore part of the Price metabox), always visible and an option.

Thanks,

M. Justin Sainton
Zao Web Design, LLC
Principal / Project Manager
http://www.zaowebdesign.com
(c) 971.222.6330
(f) 1.413.723.0396

[Lee Willis]

My 2p is that the Jigo/Woo type approach of choosing a "product type" always just confuses me, and gets in the way of what I'm actually trying to do. My guess is that most people have stores that consist of 90% of the same "product type", ie they're mostly all downloads, or not,or they're mostly physical products, or not etc.

So - my vote, would be rather than ask people to choose a product type/format on each product, have a simple wizard when people first activate the plugin that asks them a series of simple yes/no questions, like:

For most of your products:

- Do you need to charge tax : ( ) Yes   ( ) No

- Do you need to charge shipping : ( ) Yes   ( ) No

- Do the products have variations (E.g. size, colour, format etc.) : ( ) Yes   ( ) No

- Do the products have downloadable files : ( ) Yes   ( ) No

Then use this information to set the default "Screen Options" on the edit post screen.

Just a thought ...

Lee

[Zao Web Design, LLC]

A lot of stores (I'm thinking furniture, wedding industry, event planning) will have items in groups, not necessarily for discounts, but for customer convenience.  They can just order the whole "Premium Wedding Package" on the front-end, on the back-end, the admin knows they've sold catering, photography, event coordination, etc.  No discount necessarily, just a better UX.

Thanks,

M. Justin Sainton
Zao Web Design, LLC
Principal / Project Manager
http://www.zaowebdesign.com
(c) 971.222.6330
(f) 1.413.723.0396

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[Zao Web Design, LLC]

Definitely with you, Lee, on the way Jigo/Woo/Magento does them being confusing.  But for me, it's not the concept that's flawed, it's the execution (UX/UI) - I think conceptually, it could be a really helpful tool.  

I guess what you're getting at is deciding whether it's a local or a global decision (one-time wizard or every-time on product)...that's a hard question to answer, because we're making the assumption that most users have a generally similar product profile...and I don't know if that's a safe assumption or not.

Thanks,

M. Justin Sainton
Zao Web Design, LLC
Principal / Project Manager
http://www.zaowebdesign.com
(c) 971.222.6330
(f) 1.413.723.0396

--

[Michelle]

Ok then thats a perfect use for a group over a category. I still think
that discounts and promotions should be handled from a coupons and
instore promotions interface. but the product group can also be included
as a condition. I assume they would display like a category kind of -
where you have on your products page your main group eg Wedding package
then open that up to see all the products that are in that group (do
they have their own buy now buttons or is it just a group pricing or an
option for both??)

I will do a bit of research as to how some of the other shopping cart
plugins deal with groups, what you can do and what you can't I like Lees
wizard idea as well. - perhaps this wizard relates to the product type
of "my default product type".
It could also run everytime a product is created but give you the same
option to select "same as last time" and then it just closes?

[Tracey Kemp]

What if these defaults can be set per category but overridden, if necessary, per product? 

So, within the category editor you can set the default product type, whether shipping is required, taxes required, which variations are activated automatically, even default meta fields.

People will always have exceptions so these would need to be able to be edited as usual within each product. It would just make things easier by pre-populating the default setup.

The problem I have with turning options on and off is that people always have situations you haven't dreamed up yet and all of a sudden they can't do it because the option is gone.

The wizard idea would suit many beginners I think and help people set up a simple shop quickly. But if you have a complicated setup, the wizard could make a mess that you'd just have to undo later and that would frustrate many. It would have to be optional I think.

Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg

web design & development | print design & finished art

PORTFOLIO: http://dogshindleg.com

ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT: http://zombiedogentertainment.com

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[Zao Web Design, LLC]

Tracey,

I don't think anyone is talking about removing options from the table completely, simply hiding them.  Whether we go the global or local route, users can always show the metaboxes again with the Screen Options - which would be a great thing to let them know as part of the UX.

Simple is hard, turns out :)

Thanks,

M. Justin Sainton
Zao Web Design, LLC
Principal / Project Manager
http://www.zaowebdesign.com
(c) 971.222.6330
(f) 1.413.723.0396

To post to this group, send email to wordpress-e-c...@googlegroups.com.
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[Tracey Kemp]

Also, Virtual and Downloadable can certainly be very different. For me Virtual is Tickets - no physical product, no file to download at all. Their receipt is their product.

Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg

web design & development | print design & finished art

PORTFOLIO: http://dogshindleg.com

ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT: http://zombiedogentertainment.com

[Zao Web Design, LLC]

Definitely agree on that point, but I don't think the difference is so vast that it requires it's own type.  The only discernible difference is a file to download.

Thanks,

M. Justin Sainton
Zao Web Design, LLC
Principal / Project Manager
http://www.zaowebdesign.com
(c) 971.222.6330
(f) 1.413.723.0396

[Tracey Kemp]

Question: Were you thinking that these product types would be able to be used to conditionally adjust the output via the templates?  

eg. If product type = downloadable, do something.

If you added it as a taxonomy it could be useful in the same way.

Just a thought.

Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg

web design & development | print design & finished art

PORTFOLIO: http://dogshindleg.com

ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT: http://zombiedogentertainment.com

[Zao Web Design, LLC]

Not necessarily, that gets back into the custom post format conversation, which I'm not sure is a great idea, and if it is, definitely a different conversation.

Thanks,

M. Justin Sainton
Zao Web Design, LLC
Principal / Project Manager
http://www.zaowebdesign.com
(c) 971.222.6330
(f) 1.413.723.0396

[Dan Milward]

I was thinking about this over lunch (in between debating the state of the world economy - we didnt get anywhere if you were wondering).

So with the WordPress 'Post Formats' you always start with everything right. And then you narrow down what you want to do - by say choosing the Gallery option.

Why wouldn't we start with everything and then simply narrow down the choices to speed up the process of populating your shop?

A separate thing entirely might be the wizard that lets you customize what is "default" for you each time you add a product.

Over to you guys to bash me over the head with that one now :)

d

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[Gary Cao]

Hi everyone,

Coincidentally I was thinking about this a couple of weeks ago, but the thoughts didn't go anywhere so I didn't tell anyone. There are a few problems with product type (or product format):

- It's rigid. I would love to keep WPEC open to all sort of possibilities and allow users to choose whatever combination of product options they see fit. A problem with the validation that Michelle mentioned (things like requiring a downloadable product to have a downloadable file) can backfire if it's limiting the users from what they want to do. We can always make the UI better so that the "Downloadable" metabox is more visible to the user, but if we add another layer of complexity (product type / format), it could always introduce some kind of other user errors as well. Also, the Simple / Advanced / Variable / Downloadable categorization would be a debated topic. I look at how Woo and Jigo categorize those product types and personally I think it wouldn't make the users life any easier.

- Hiding metaboxes is one way to make the UI less cluttered. Another way is to categorize them into group and display them as tabs inside metaboxes (like Woo and Jigo is currently doing). That eliminates the need to hide metaboxes.

- Select product type would add another step to the "add product" process. Could be annoying for sites with lots of products.

A solution for this would be to allow users to use "product templates" instead. What this does is letting users pre-populate fields that are common to their products, and they will just have to Duplicate these templates with ease. Product Duplication is already a feature in core, we just need to make it clearer to people that they can use that to speed up product creation by creating a separate UI that handles product templates.

We can also create a few default product templates for Physical Products, Digital Products etc. and allow users to modify those as well.

I'm not saying that "Product type" is a bad idea. I just think we can improve the idea, innovate and do a better job than Woo and Jigo. If you look at the ecommerce market for WordPress now, Woo and Jigo are essentially twins. They're solving problems the same way (at least for now), so to be fair WooCommerce is not adding much values to the market; they're probably just better at themes and extensions for e-commerce. MarketPress copied a lot of things from us, and they have little creativity (if at all). If we are to compete with these guys, we need to "differentiate" from them rather than following their trails. Think how Apple differentiate themselves from Microsoft, Dell, HP etc. WPEC needs to provide something that those other solutions don't have, or solve problems in a different better way.

We're actually at an advantage now. WooCommerce is pretty much stuck with whatever features JigoShop originally had. We can learn from their mistakes and do things better.

[Tracey Kemp]

Agreed. I think we're at an advantage too.

I love the idea of product templates. It's kinda what I was getting at with setting defaults for categories but you've taken it a step further. 

Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg

web design & development | print design & finished art

PORTFOLIO: http://dogshindleg.com

ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT: http://zombiedogentertainment.com

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[Dan Milward]

I like your thinking. Allowing the shop owner to tailor their experience is a really good idea. But if we did this it'd have to be super easy to use and not make things more confusing. Actually I think that is why Post Formats start of with nothing checked (at least I think that is the case).

To be honest I don't enjoy the tabs in the meta boxes in Jigo. It reeks of mystery meat (an old school term we used in web design school for unnecessarily hiding UIX from the users). And we don't see this anywhere in the WordPress UI.

Best,
Dan

[Dan Milward]

I don't think templates is the right word... but yeah... we're about empowering the shop owner and letting them tailor their experience (so long as its unbelievably easy to use - right?).

d

[Tracey Kemp]

Easy to use and customisable = awesome.

Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg

web design & development | print design & finished art

PORTFOLIO: http://dogshindleg.com

ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT: http://zombiedogentertainment.com

[Gary Cao]

But if we did this it'd have to be super easy to use and not make things more confusing.

And that's where we need a UX person to solve that for us :) 

To be honest I don't enjoy the tabs in the meta boxes in Jigo. It reeks of mystery meat (an old school term we used in web design school for unnecessarily hiding UIX from the users). And we don't see this anywhere in the WordPress UI.

There's actually one place, it's the Post Category box where there are tabs. But I agree it might not apply to our metaboxes.

It would be awesome to have WP core UI guidance about these kind of things. Is there any sort of official UI / UX guideline for WordPress plugin development (like those human interface guidelines that Apple has for iOS developers)?

[Zao Web Design, LLC]

Maybe something like this?

http://dotorgstyleguide.wordpress.com/ 

Far from complete, but the best I could find.

Thanks,

M. Justin Sainton
Zao Web Design, LLC
Principal / Project Manager
http://www.zaowebdesign.com
(c) 971.222.6330
(f) 1.413.723.0396

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[Screaming Code Monkey]

hi gang, long time since Ive piped in here. Hope everyone is doing well :)

 

Justin thats a cool find! Bookmarked for future reference! 

Gary totally agree I too am not a fan of the tabs in their metaboxes, its well,,, confusing to know what options you have, IMO best thing to do is to hide advanced metaboxes from new installs,, 

I like the idea of hiding the tax box if tax is not turned on. 

Let just not add more confusion by hiding them on old installs as I can see a few forum threads already:

OH MY GOd MY PRODUCT OPTIONS HAVE DISSAPEARED!

I think if you are looking at streamlining the UI then  :

1. follow the WordPress guidelines Justin mentioned,, just make sure all metaboxes are tight.

2. hide the more advanced metaboxes

3. Perhaps have an option (UGH I personally hate adding more options) to hide / show advanced options... this should in theory be a user based option

Thats my 2 cents. 

best

jeff

less screaming more coding

www.screamingcodemonkey.com

[Amanda Blum]

consider that we'll spin off tickets as a plugin that ties into the
"virtual" product type. Really, a ticket is merely a receipt with some
variable data. For that matter, isn't a donation merely a virtual
product?

Lets talk about ACTUAL physical shippable products. what are we
selling?

simple items. 1 price, 1 size. no variables.

now lets talk about variables. currently, we can have endless variable
sets on WPEC. can we establish, what is a REASONABLE limit on those
variable levels. 3? 4? We should find one.

On Nov 21, 6:22 pm, "Zao Web Design, LLC" <off...@zaowebdesign.com>
wrote:

> Definitely agree on that point, but I don't think the difference is so vast
> that it requires it's own type.  The only discernible difference is a file
> to download.
>
> Thanks,
>

> *M. Justin Sainton

> Zao Web Design, LLC
> Principal / Project Managerhttp://www.zaowebdesign.com
> (c) 971.222.6330

> (f) 1.413.723.0396*

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Tracey Kemp <tra...@dogshindleg.com> wrote:
> > Also, Virtual and Downloadable can certainly be very different. For me
> > Virtual is Tickets - no physical product, no file to download at all. Their
> > receipt is their product.
>
> > Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
> > skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg
> > web design & development | print design & finished art
> >  PORTFOLIO:http://dogshindleg.com
> > <http://dogshindleg.com>ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT:
> >http://zombiedogentertainment.com
>
> > On 22 November 2011 10:17, Zao Web Design, LLC <off...@zaowebdesign.com>wrote:
>
> >> Tracey,
>
> >> I don't think anyone is talking about removing options from the table
> >> completely, simply hiding them.  Whether we go the global or local route,
> >> users can always show the metaboxes again with the Screen Options - which
> >> would be a great thing to let them know as part of the UX.
>
> >> Simple is hard, turns out :)
>
> >> Thanks,
>

> >> *M. Justin Sainton

> >> Zao Web Design, LLC
> >> Principal / Project Manager
> >>http://www.zaowebdesign.com
> >> (c) 971.222.6330

> >> (f) 1.413.723.0396*

>
> >> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Tracey Kemp <tra...@dogshindleg.com>wrote:
>
> >>> What if these defaults can be set per category but overridden, if
> >>> necessary, per product?
>
> >>> So, within the category editor you can set the default product type,
> >>> whether shipping is required, taxes required, which variations are
> >>> activated automatically, even default meta fields.
>
> >>> People will always have exceptions so these would need to be able to be
> >>> edited as usual within each product. It would just make things easier by
> >>> pre-populating the default setup.
>
> >>> The problem I have with turning options on and off is that people always
> >>> have situations you haven't dreamed up yet and all of a sudden they can't
> >>> do it because the option is gone.
>
> >>> The wizard idea would suit many beginners I think and help people set up
> >>> a simple shop quickly. But if you have a complicated setup, the wizard
> >>> could make a mess that you'd just have to undo later and that would
> >>> frustrate many. It would have to be optional I think.
>
> >>> Tracey Kemp | +61 418 483 493
> >>> skype:dogshindleg | twitter:@dogshindleg
> >>> web design & development | print design & finished art
> >>> PORTFOLIO:http://dogshindleg.com
> >>>  <http://dogshindleg.com>ZOMBIE DOG ENTERTAINMENT:
> >>>http://zombiedogentertainment.com
>

> >>> On 22 November 2011 09:16, Michelle <miche...@instinct.co.nz> wrote:
>
> >>>> Ok then thats a perfect use for a group over a category. I still think
> >>>> that discounts and promotions should be handled from a coupons and instore
> >>>> promotions interface. but the product group can also be included as a
> >>>> condition. I assume they would display like a category kind of - where you
> >>>> have on your products page your main group eg Wedding package then open
> >>>> that up to see all the products that are in that group (do they have their
> >>>> own buy now buttons or is it just a group pricing or an option for both??)
>
> >>>> I will do a bit of research as to how some of the other shopping cart
> >>>> plugins deal with groups, what you can do and what you can't I like Lees
> >>>> wizard idea as well. - perhaps this wizard relates to the product type of
> >>>> "my default product type".
> >>>> It could also run everytime a product is created but give you the same
> >>>> option to select "same as last time" and then it just closes?
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>> Groups "WordPress e-Commerce Plugin Development" group.

> >>>> To post to this group, send email to wordpress-e-commerce-plugin@**
> >>>> googlegroups.com <wordpress-e-c...@googlegroups.com>.

> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >>>> wordpress-e-commerce-plugin+**unsub...@googlegroups.com<wordpress-e-comm erce-plugin%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>> .
> >>>> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/**
> >>>> group/wordpress-e-commerce-**plugin?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/wordpress-e-commerce-plugin?hl=en>

[Zao Web Design, LLC]

I think I'm a bit confused by the question 'What are we selling?' - the people that use WPEC are selling anything, everything.  When you're referring to variables and variable sets, I assume you're referring to variations.  While it's a system than can be abused (for customers and admins alike, it's a horrible idea to set up a dozen variation sets), that doesn't mean we should limit thee amount that people can do.  First, because there are people whose shops already depend on doing more than 3 or 4 variation sets.  We can't break that.  Second, it's a hierarchical taxonomy, it would be akin to saying you can only put a post in 4 categories.  Variations are an area we need to continue to innovate in, not an area to be introducing inherent limitations.

Thanks,

M. Justin Sainton
Zao Web Design, LLC
Principal / Project Manager
http://www.zaowebdesign.com
(c) 971.222.6330
(f) 1.413.723.0396