Refinishing Stairs
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Tim Inman
Feb 11, 2011, 12:06:28 PM2/11/11
to WoodFinishing & Furniture Restorer's Guide
Title: refinishing stairs
Post by: BethB on February 04, 2011, 11:09:27 AM
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I have agreed to give an estimate for refinishing a stairway. This
will include only the stairs, risers, and landing. The rail and
spindles are painted and for now the customer wants to leave it that
way. There are 10 stairs, the landing, and 8 more stairs. There is
only a trace here and there of the old finish. My questions are - 1.
Do I figure this out per stair, per hour, or just take a big stab in
the dark about time and materials and go from there? 2. Having never
done this for anyone else before, are there things to look out for
that maybe I haven't thought of? 3. Any thoughts on the best
method(s) for getting the job done well and in a timely manner?
Thanks for your thoughts!
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 04, 2011, 02:50:55 PM
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Carefully consider what you think it should cost, then triple it. You
won't be too far short.
Actually, I'll give you a better answer next week when I have the
time. I've done this kind of work many times. It is NOT cheap - for
the client or for you.
I would strongly suggest an hourly rate on this. You'll be surprised
how much time it takes, and how many times the client changes their
mind - or worse - offers their input, before the job is done.
Marry in haste, repent at leisure, as the old saying goes. Do not
plunge into this job without a lot of consideration!
Happy weekend,
Tim Inman
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: BethB on February 04, 2011, 04:26:15 PM
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Thanks Tim. I had thought I would give her an idea by Sunday, but
I'll hold off and think it thru some more. I tend to underestimate my
time anyway. I'm always afraid of seeing their eyes roll in the back
of their head when I tell them what it will cost me. Thanks for any
and all help you give!
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 04, 2011, 04:41:10 PM
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I know what you mean, Beth. But I'd rather have the owner's eyeballs
rolling in the back of their heads than yours!
There are so many 'levels' of expectation and quality. Maybe I could
suggest that if you're going to see your potential customer Sunday,
you might use the opportunity to ask a few questions. 1. "Do you have
a budget in mind for this project?" Be direct. This is a fair
question. I did a staircase, which I will discuss next week, which
amounted to tens of thousands of dollars invested by the owner. It is
the centerpiece of a grand restoration project. It is a grand
staircase. The cost of my work will be returned to the owners many
times over when they sell the house. I will not get a commission on
the sale!
2. "Do you want the staircase to look like a perfect new one?"
Perfect is the enemy of good. If they want it perfect, perfect costs
more money.
3. "How do you want to handle the issue of cost over-runs?" Hidden
damage, unplanned events, the ever dreaded 'change orders' all add to
the project. If the owner says, 'No cost over runs!' then you must
MUST inform them there can be no change orders or variables once the
project starts.
Don't allow yourself to be timid now, and cause yourself to be angry
later on. Voice of Experience.
Tim Inman
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 05, 2011, 06:24:32 AM
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Dave’s quote;
Two employees for a total of 120 to 160 hours using spray application
on both removal and finishing. One day set-up and masking, two days
stripping, two days prep and clean-up, one day staining, two days
finishing, and one day touch-up and removal from site. Hopefully, one
day to spare.
Your turn Tim:)
Dave White
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: jafo on February 05, 2011, 09:04:24 AM
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I like Dave's quote. I have done this too. What a pain, but
profitable. It will take you 3 times as long! I usually did an
hourly rate, but figured how many days it will take. Plus I allowed
enough time for the "oh @^%%$". If it is an older staircase, there
will be surprises. If they are small, I would just deal with it, but
if there are a lot of the "smaller ones", or a few bigger surprises,
then the customer needs to be brought in and explained to them.
Masking, stripping, prep are the hard part. It has to be done right,
or the fun part, staining and finishing won't come out as you or the
customer wanted it. If they want "perfect" like Tim said, you need to
be paid for it, probably add another day or two to that. Perfect
takes time, and you need to be compensated for it. Good Luck!
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 05, 2011, 09:31:13 AM
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I think Dave has the time pretty close, but I'd add on another 40
hours if the client is actually living in the home you'll be working
in. Here's why:
You will probably not be able to put in a full 8 hour day. They won't
want you showing up too early, or they will want you out before they
get home, especially if they have little kids. You'll burn up 6 hours,
and the rest of the day is pretty much unbillable. They have to pay
for the whole day anyway.
On-site work means you really need to have everything cleaned up and
put away at the end of each day. This takes time. People will
tolerate a mess for a day or two, then they get sick of it fast.
Once you've started, you'll get little sticky notes each morning you
show up pointing out things they think you should do, or redo, or not
do, or do differently. Been there, done this!!!
It always takes longer than you think.
So, I'm at about 200 hours. If your shop rate is $65 (our current
rate) then you're looking at about $13,000, if my math is right.
Materials are billed out separately, so your client should be ready to
spend in the neighborhood of $15,000 for this job. If they're in the
$500 zone, run, don't walk, away as fast as you can.
Be sure you get paid. On a small job like this, I'd get 1/2 before
you start, and the rest on the Monday after you've finished. I don't
mean to sound harsh, but I've just been through so many of these
deals, I can predict what's coming. Let us help you predict a happy
ending!
Tim Inman
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 05, 2011, 01:32:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surprises are not in the quote! And, you need to make sure the
customer understands that. That’s just part of restoration.
We did a walnut stairway a few years ago that had a carpet runner on
the treads. No problem. But, under the carpet was linoleum and it was
adhered to the wood with a black tar like adhesive. Stripping this
stuff added two more days to the job. But, we ended up with more work
and the customer paid. We quoted stripping paints and finishes, not
adhesives and they understood.
Dave White
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: BethB on February 07, 2011, 05:38:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks so much for all the wisdom from experience. The client wasn't
able to meet yesterday, so that gives me time to really think this
thing through. I will definitely be asking the questions you
suggested and try to cover all the bases.
The clients do live in the house with 2 small kids and a dog. So,
Tim, you're right - a 6 hour day is probably all I will get in. Also
- how do you figure your shop rate? I'm sure I'm too low. I think I
may need a new mind set on what my time is really worth.
Dave you mentioned spraying. I don't currently have that equipment.
With this big project in mind, is it a good time to invest in that?
Beth Beckerman
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 07, 2011, 05:53:02 AM
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Brushing will take four or more times as long.
Dave White
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 07, 2011, 08:53:42 AM
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There are basically two ways to figure your shop rate: Cost plus
profit, and Marketplace.
Cost plus profit is the traditional accounting tool where you figure
all your costs, like rent, utilities, insurance, taxes, employer
retirement contributions, interest, advertising, accounting services,
WAGES!, and anything else you pay for on a regular basis. This is
called 'fixed' overhead or costs. 'Variable' overhead would include
the things you use up or only occassionally purchase for specific
tasks. Once you have your overhead costs figured out, then you need
to figure out how many hours you can actually bill out or charge for
in the same time period. Usually, these things are worked out on a
monthly basis. Then, you divide your monthly overhead costs by your
estimated monthly billable time, and you arrive at a number which
should represent your hourly fees needed to cover your costs and wages
- your expenses to do business.
When you estimate your chargeable hours, you can't assume 40 hours per
week. That is impossible. I usually figure 20 hours per week
billable time. I actually spend lots more time in the shop, but I
can't bill it out. If you think you can bill 30 hours, then use that
number. I'm closer, though!
Marketplace is easier, and what I use mostly. This is simply the
price the local market will allow. I use the hourly rates my local GM
dealer (we still have one!) charges for mechanics to fix my car. I
figure our tooling costs are similar, The workshop space is similar,
and it is easier to find a mechanic than it is to find a good antique
restorer or finisher. So really, that's where I get my number. It is
easy to tell customers we charge about the same as the local garage.
They 'get' that.
We almost never discuss hourly rates with clients, though. We don't
want to go there. We just give them an estimated price range (which
we work out estimating time and that hourly rate number) and they
decide whether they want to spend the money or not. How we charge and
how much time we take is our business, not theirs. You wouldn't want
to pay your dentist by the hour, and we furniture professionals
shouldn't do it any differently, either.
Tim Inman
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: BethB on February 08, 2011, 03:15:16 PM
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Thanks so much for all the help. I have lots to think about! I'm
definitely rethinking the estimate as well as my shop rate. I may
have more questions as we go along. Thanks again!
Beth Beckerman
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 10, 2011, 12:19:17 PM
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Hum, I’m just the opposite. I post my rate, I’m proud of it, and I
price everything by the hour and with the customer present. That way
if cost restraints are an issue I have the document in hand along with
the customer to discuss where they would like me to reduce my
services. I have found that when I itemize the work and assign the
estimated time customers never challenge my estimate, especially those
that have tried to do the work themselves. If they can’t afford the
job then this gives us both something to work with.
I wasn’t always this way. I was like Tim! But, one day I came back to
our refinishing shop and the manager had posted our hourly rate.
Petrified, I ripped the sign down and proceeded to chastise my
manager. The manager, a young gal, respectfully listened to my
protest and agreed to keep our rate a secret. But, she then asked if I
would listen to her position. She stated I should be proud of our
hourly rate. That a lot of our customers were professionals or worked
for professionals and our hourly rate was a bargain. She rightfully
told me that every service person knows the rate that their company
charges. So why the fear, she asked? Secondly, she liked to price the
job by time. This not only gave her the opportunity to work with the
customer on a “project plan” for the job, also allowed her to sell
herself to the customer. She thought estimating was kind of cold and
secretive.
I never asked where she came up with this. But, I told her I thought
it sounded fantastic and I personally re-hung the hourly rate sign. We
stopped giving estimates and started “project planning.” It worked,
done it for years and, if you’ve attended a Dave White training
school, it’s part of lesson #1.
Dave White
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 10, 2011, 01:34:42 PM
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It all depends on your customers....
Dave is right, and makes good points. I'm right, too. How can that
be? Different clientele.
Dave says most of his target customers were professional people or
folks who worked with professionals and understood the hourly rates.
That being the case, a known hourly rate would not be a problem.
I work in an area where almost nobody works 'by the hour.' Thus, they
can not comprehend high hourly fees. Most of the people I work with
are farmers or ranchers - land owners. They make their money on the
produce of the earth. They don't keep track of their time picking and
planting, and they don't pay much more than minimum wage to hire
people to feed their livestock. Rent and return is figured 'per
acre.' They are very wealthy, by and large, and they make a ton of
money (especially with corn prices over $7.00 on yesterday's futures
markets in Chicago!) There are exceptions, of course.
Another aspect of my goofy world is that, contrary to most of the rest
of the free world, 'conspicuous consumption' is frowned upon. NOBODY
out here wants anyone else to think they either have any extra money -
or God forbid! - would spend any of it on luxury non-necessities like
having furnitre refinished. We never speak a client's name, nor do we
tag anything with a name or ID that would reveal the owner to the
public. Many folks have their furniture in our shop while they are in
California or Texas or Florida for the winter. Nobody is the wiser.
So, the REAL message is to figure out a way to present yourself to
your clients in a way that will make them glad to hire you, and
willing to pay you a FAIR price to do the work they want done. Each
of us must fine tune that campaign for ourselves.
Tim Inman
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: BethB on February 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
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Interesting discussion. Have to agree about knowing the clientele.
We live about an hour from Dave in a rural farming community. The
small town in our county has 2 large employers - the school district
and the hospital. We have many who are used to the hourly concept and
many who work 9 months and get paid over 12. Then there's the rest of
us!
My husband and I both grew up in families with farmers hours. We then
owned and operated restaurants for 18 years. We're used to getting
the job done no matter how long it takes. That's probably one reason
I have trouble coming up with an hourly figure that feels right.
Most people I have dealt with have never had furniture refinished
before and have no idea what to expect. They just want to know what
the number will be on the check. I've been fortunate to have several
clients who are willing to pay whatever it costs to get it done. They
tell their friends and so on. Those folks don't work for hourly wages
either.
Thanks for a place to talk this out. You guys are great!
Beth B
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 11, 2011, 06:00:18 AM
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Come on! No matter where you are, country or city, a service business
sells time. Tracking time is critical since this is the major expense
when performing the service and the key for quoting and estimating
work. Shops that have the same equipment and perform the same tasks
will normally spend the same amount of time for the task. There’s
nothing mystical about how much time it takes to do this work and
tracking time allows you to take control of your business. What you
charge for your time is up to you.
Dave White
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 11, 2011, 09:49:47 AM
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Somehow this discussion on staircases has turned into a discussion on
rates. Maybe the two really are the same issue.......
One other thing occurred to me last night while ruminating. Charging
'by the hour' is OK, but very few professionals actually do it. They
can make so much more money by charging other ways. Architects and
Interior Designers frequently charge by the square foot. Engineers
sometimes take a percentage of the total budget. Medical doctors and
Dentists use 'procedure fee schedules.' (And if you guys keep
pressing me on this, I'll be forced to re-tell my Dreaded Old Dentist
Joke again....) This whole discussion is really about finding a way to
get paid that you can 'sell' to yourself and your clients - and make
the most money you can on a given job.
Lawyers, a group I'm too familiar with, for example, claim an 'hourly'
rate, but they don't actually work by the hour. They use a rate book,
very similar to an auto mechanic's rate book. If the rate book says
it takes 'three hours' to do a contract, then that's the billing -
even if the lawyer actually only took 20 minutes to find the pre-
written contract in the form books, and instructed his secretary where
to make the needed changes and insertions. Or, they take a percentage
of the estate or the judgement award.
Another lawyer friend (yes, I have some) keeps track of the time he
takes to do everything. When someone needs a contract he's previously
written, or a negotiation he's previously done, he consults his books,
and determines the fee based on how long it took him to originally do
the job. In other words, he sells his work over and over again,
charging the same hours each time.
Lawyers frequently bill out many more hours in a week than there are
hours in a week. One of the few professions that can do this.
The real reason I'm always prone to recommending we find other ways
than 'by the hour' to bill for our work is this: Hourly charges can
lead innocent beginners to penalize themselves for increasing their
skills and speed. If you can do a job in 1 hour today that took you 4
hours three years ago, you shouldn't make less because you got
better! Dave's way or mine, makes no difference - as long as you're
being well paid for what you do, and you're busy with happy repeat
customers.
Have a great weekend!
Tim Inman
Post by: BethB on February 04, 2011, 11:09:27 AM
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I have agreed to give an estimate for refinishing a stairway. This
will include only the stairs, risers, and landing. The rail and
spindles are painted and for now the customer wants to leave it that
way. There are 10 stairs, the landing, and 8 more stairs. There is
only a trace here and there of the old finish. My questions are - 1.
Do I figure this out per stair, per hour, or just take a big stab in
the dark about time and materials and go from there? 2. Having never
done this for anyone else before, are there things to look out for
that maybe I haven't thought of? 3. Any thoughts on the best
method(s) for getting the job done well and in a timely manner?
Thanks for your thoughts!
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 04, 2011, 02:50:55 PM
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Carefully consider what you think it should cost, then triple it. You
won't be too far short.
Actually, I'll give you a better answer next week when I have the
time. I've done this kind of work many times. It is NOT cheap - for
the client or for you.
I would strongly suggest an hourly rate on this. You'll be surprised
how much time it takes, and how many times the client changes their
mind - or worse - offers their input, before the job is done.
Marry in haste, repent at leisure, as the old saying goes. Do not
plunge into this job without a lot of consideration!
Happy weekend,
Tim Inman
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: BethB on February 04, 2011, 04:26:15 PM
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Thanks Tim. I had thought I would give her an idea by Sunday, but
I'll hold off and think it thru some more. I tend to underestimate my
time anyway. I'm always afraid of seeing their eyes roll in the back
of their head when I tell them what it will cost me. Thanks for any
and all help you give!
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 04, 2011, 04:41:10 PM
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I know what you mean, Beth. But I'd rather have the owner's eyeballs
rolling in the back of their heads than yours!
There are so many 'levels' of expectation and quality. Maybe I could
suggest that if you're going to see your potential customer Sunday,
you might use the opportunity to ask a few questions. 1. "Do you have
a budget in mind for this project?" Be direct. This is a fair
question. I did a staircase, which I will discuss next week, which
amounted to tens of thousands of dollars invested by the owner. It is
the centerpiece of a grand restoration project. It is a grand
staircase. The cost of my work will be returned to the owners many
times over when they sell the house. I will not get a commission on
the sale!
2. "Do you want the staircase to look like a perfect new one?"
Perfect is the enemy of good. If they want it perfect, perfect costs
more money.
3. "How do you want to handle the issue of cost over-runs?" Hidden
damage, unplanned events, the ever dreaded 'change orders' all add to
the project. If the owner says, 'No cost over runs!' then you must
MUST inform them there can be no change orders or variables once the
project starts.
Don't allow yourself to be timid now, and cause yourself to be angry
later on. Voice of Experience.
Tim Inman
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 05, 2011, 06:24:32 AM
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Dave’s quote;
Two employees for a total of 120 to 160 hours using spray application
on both removal and finishing. One day set-up and masking, two days
stripping, two days prep and clean-up, one day staining, two days
finishing, and one day touch-up and removal from site. Hopefully, one
day to spare.
Your turn Tim:)
Dave White
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: jafo on February 05, 2011, 09:04:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like Dave's quote. I have done this too. What a pain, but
profitable. It will take you 3 times as long! I usually did an
hourly rate, but figured how many days it will take. Plus I allowed
enough time for the "oh @^%%$". If it is an older staircase, there
will be surprises. If they are small, I would just deal with it, but
if there are a lot of the "smaller ones", or a few bigger surprises,
then the customer needs to be brought in and explained to them.
Masking, stripping, prep are the hard part. It has to be done right,
or the fun part, staining and finishing won't come out as you or the
customer wanted it. If they want "perfect" like Tim said, you need to
be paid for it, probably add another day or two to that. Perfect
takes time, and you need to be compensated for it. Good Luck!
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 05, 2011, 09:31:13 AM
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I think Dave has the time pretty close, but I'd add on another 40
hours if the client is actually living in the home you'll be working
in. Here's why:
You will probably not be able to put in a full 8 hour day. They won't
want you showing up too early, or they will want you out before they
get home, especially if they have little kids. You'll burn up 6 hours,
and the rest of the day is pretty much unbillable. They have to pay
for the whole day anyway.
On-site work means you really need to have everything cleaned up and
put away at the end of each day. This takes time. People will
tolerate a mess for a day or two, then they get sick of it fast.
Once you've started, you'll get little sticky notes each morning you
show up pointing out things they think you should do, or redo, or not
do, or do differently. Been there, done this!!!
It always takes longer than you think.
So, I'm at about 200 hours. If your shop rate is $65 (our current
rate) then you're looking at about $13,000, if my math is right.
Materials are billed out separately, so your client should be ready to
spend in the neighborhood of $15,000 for this job. If they're in the
$500 zone, run, don't walk, away as fast as you can.
Be sure you get paid. On a small job like this, I'd get 1/2 before
you start, and the rest on the Monday after you've finished. I don't
mean to sound harsh, but I've just been through so many of these
deals, I can predict what's coming. Let us help you predict a happy
ending!
Tim Inman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 05, 2011, 01:32:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surprises are not in the quote! And, you need to make sure the
customer understands that. That’s just part of restoration.
We did a walnut stairway a few years ago that had a carpet runner on
the treads. No problem. But, under the carpet was linoleum and it was
adhered to the wood with a black tar like adhesive. Stripping this
stuff added two more days to the job. But, we ended up with more work
and the customer paid. We quoted stripping paints and finishes, not
adhesives and they understood.
Dave White
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: BethB on February 07, 2011, 05:38:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks so much for all the wisdom from experience. The client wasn't
able to meet yesterday, so that gives me time to really think this
thing through. I will definitely be asking the questions you
suggested and try to cover all the bases.
The clients do live in the house with 2 small kids and a dog. So,
Tim, you're right - a 6 hour day is probably all I will get in. Also
- how do you figure your shop rate? I'm sure I'm too low. I think I
may need a new mind set on what my time is really worth.
Dave you mentioned spraying. I don't currently have that equipment.
With this big project in mind, is it a good time to invest in that?
Beth Beckerman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 07, 2011, 05:53:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brushing will take four or more times as long.
Dave White
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 07, 2011, 08:53:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are basically two ways to figure your shop rate: Cost plus
profit, and Marketplace.
Cost plus profit is the traditional accounting tool where you figure
all your costs, like rent, utilities, insurance, taxes, employer
retirement contributions, interest, advertising, accounting services,
WAGES!, and anything else you pay for on a regular basis. This is
called 'fixed' overhead or costs. 'Variable' overhead would include
the things you use up or only occassionally purchase for specific
tasks. Once you have your overhead costs figured out, then you need
to figure out how many hours you can actually bill out or charge for
in the same time period. Usually, these things are worked out on a
monthly basis. Then, you divide your monthly overhead costs by your
estimated monthly billable time, and you arrive at a number which
should represent your hourly fees needed to cover your costs and wages
- your expenses to do business.
When you estimate your chargeable hours, you can't assume 40 hours per
week. That is impossible. I usually figure 20 hours per week
billable time. I actually spend lots more time in the shop, but I
can't bill it out. If you think you can bill 30 hours, then use that
number. I'm closer, though!
Marketplace is easier, and what I use mostly. This is simply the
price the local market will allow. I use the hourly rates my local GM
dealer (we still have one!) charges for mechanics to fix my car. I
figure our tooling costs are similar, The workshop space is similar,
and it is easier to find a mechanic than it is to find a good antique
restorer or finisher. So really, that's where I get my number. It is
easy to tell customers we charge about the same as the local garage.
They 'get' that.
We almost never discuss hourly rates with clients, though. We don't
want to go there. We just give them an estimated price range (which
we work out estimating time and that hourly rate number) and they
decide whether they want to spend the money or not. How we charge and
how much time we take is our business, not theirs. You wouldn't want
to pay your dentist by the hour, and we furniture professionals
shouldn't do it any differently, either.
Tim Inman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: BethB on February 08, 2011, 03:15:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks so much for all the help. I have lots to think about! I'm
definitely rethinking the estimate as well as my shop rate. I may
have more questions as we go along. Thanks again!
Beth Beckerman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 10, 2011, 12:19:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hum, I’m just the opposite. I post my rate, I’m proud of it, and I
price everything by the hour and with the customer present. That way
if cost restraints are an issue I have the document in hand along with
the customer to discuss where they would like me to reduce my
services. I have found that when I itemize the work and assign the
estimated time customers never challenge my estimate, especially those
that have tried to do the work themselves. If they can’t afford the
job then this gives us both something to work with.
I wasn’t always this way. I was like Tim! But, one day I came back to
our refinishing shop and the manager had posted our hourly rate.
Petrified, I ripped the sign down and proceeded to chastise my
manager. The manager, a young gal, respectfully listened to my
protest and agreed to keep our rate a secret. But, she then asked if I
would listen to her position. She stated I should be proud of our
hourly rate. That a lot of our customers were professionals or worked
for professionals and our hourly rate was a bargain. She rightfully
told me that every service person knows the rate that their company
charges. So why the fear, she asked? Secondly, she liked to price the
job by time. This not only gave her the opportunity to work with the
customer on a “project plan” for the job, also allowed her to sell
herself to the customer. She thought estimating was kind of cold and
secretive.
I never asked where she came up with this. But, I told her I thought
it sounded fantastic and I personally re-hung the hourly rate sign. We
stopped giving estimates and started “project planning.” It worked,
done it for years and, if you’ve attended a Dave White training
school, it’s part of lesson #1.
Dave White
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 10, 2011, 01:34:42 PM
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It all depends on your customers....
Dave is right, and makes good points. I'm right, too. How can that
be? Different clientele.
Dave says most of his target customers were professional people or
folks who worked with professionals and understood the hourly rates.
That being the case, a known hourly rate would not be a problem.
I work in an area where almost nobody works 'by the hour.' Thus, they
can not comprehend high hourly fees. Most of the people I work with
are farmers or ranchers - land owners. They make their money on the
produce of the earth. They don't keep track of their time picking and
planting, and they don't pay much more than minimum wage to hire
people to feed their livestock. Rent and return is figured 'per
acre.' They are very wealthy, by and large, and they make a ton of
money (especially with corn prices over $7.00 on yesterday's futures
markets in Chicago!) There are exceptions, of course.
Another aspect of my goofy world is that, contrary to most of the rest
of the free world, 'conspicuous consumption' is frowned upon. NOBODY
out here wants anyone else to think they either have any extra money -
or God forbid! - would spend any of it on luxury non-necessities like
having furnitre refinished. We never speak a client's name, nor do we
tag anything with a name or ID that would reveal the owner to the
public. Many folks have their furniture in our shop while they are in
California or Texas or Florida for the winter. Nobody is the wiser.
So, the REAL message is to figure out a way to present yourself to
your clients in a way that will make them glad to hire you, and
willing to pay you a FAIR price to do the work they want done. Each
of us must fine tune that campaign for ourselves.
Tim Inman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: BethB on February 10, 2011, 05:32:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting discussion. Have to agree about knowing the clientele.
We live about an hour from Dave in a rural farming community. The
small town in our county has 2 large employers - the school district
and the hospital. We have many who are used to the hourly concept and
many who work 9 months and get paid over 12. Then there's the rest of
us!
My husband and I both grew up in families with farmers hours. We then
owned and operated restaurants for 18 years. We're used to getting
the job done no matter how long it takes. That's probably one reason
I have trouble coming up with an hourly figure that feels right.
Most people I have dealt with have never had furniture refinished
before and have no idea what to expect. They just want to know what
the number will be on the check. I've been fortunate to have several
clients who are willing to pay whatever it costs to get it done. They
tell their friends and so on. Those folks don't work for hourly wages
either.
Thanks for a place to talk this out. You guys are great!
Beth B
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: Dave on February 11, 2011, 06:00:18 AM
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Come on! No matter where you are, country or city, a service business
sells time. Tracking time is critical since this is the major expense
when performing the service and the key for quoting and estimating
work. Shops that have the same equipment and perform the same tasks
will normally spend the same amount of time for the task. There’s
nothing mystical about how much time it takes to do this work and
tracking time allows you to take control of your business. What you
charge for your time is up to you.
Dave White
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Title: Re: refinishing stairs
Post by: TIM INMAN on February 11, 2011, 09:49:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Somehow this discussion on staircases has turned into a discussion on
rates. Maybe the two really are the same issue.......
One other thing occurred to me last night while ruminating. Charging
'by the hour' is OK, but very few professionals actually do it. They
can make so much more money by charging other ways. Architects and
Interior Designers frequently charge by the square foot. Engineers
sometimes take a percentage of the total budget. Medical doctors and
Dentists use 'procedure fee schedules.' (And if you guys keep
pressing me on this, I'll be forced to re-tell my Dreaded Old Dentist
Joke again....) This whole discussion is really about finding a way to
get paid that you can 'sell' to yourself and your clients - and make
the most money you can on a given job.
Lawyers, a group I'm too familiar with, for example, claim an 'hourly'
rate, but they don't actually work by the hour. They use a rate book,
very similar to an auto mechanic's rate book. If the rate book says
it takes 'three hours' to do a contract, then that's the billing -
even if the lawyer actually only took 20 minutes to find the pre-
written contract in the form books, and instructed his secretary where
to make the needed changes and insertions. Or, they take a percentage
of the estate or the judgement award.
Another lawyer friend (yes, I have some) keeps track of the time he
takes to do everything. When someone needs a contract he's previously
written, or a negotiation he's previously done, he consults his books,
and determines the fee based on how long it took him to originally do
the job. In other words, he sells his work over and over again,
charging the same hours each time.
Lawyers frequently bill out many more hours in a week than there are
hours in a week. One of the few professions that can do this.
The real reason I'm always prone to recommending we find other ways
than 'by the hour' to bill for our work is this: Hourly charges can
lead innocent beginners to penalize themselves for increasing their
skills and speed. If you can do a job in 1 hour today that took you 4
hours three years ago, you shouldn't make less because you got
better! Dave's way or mine, makes no difference - as long as you're
being well paid for what you do, and you're busy with happy repeat
customers.
Have a great weekend!
Tim Inman
Gregory Doublestein
Feb 11, 2011, 1:20:03 PM2/11/11
to woodfinis...@googlegroups.com
Fantastic discussion which goes to the heart of probably the single greatest struggle we have being in business. Like, Tim, I'll add more later. But a couple initial thoughts here.
1) It is very tempting in these tight times to take every job presented. I specialize in architectural wood stripping and refinishing (historic and high end doors in particular) as opposed to furniture. Staircases are an absolute night mare on several counts. For example, just because you tape off sections of the staircase does not mean that you can pretend that they won't be impacted by the work you do. Dave is absolutely right...add 4x to your price for a brushed out finish as opposed to a sprayed finish...plan for hours of rub out. Have the customer find out how much it costs to replace the staircase and see if it makes sense to restore it.
2) I'm reminded by things Tim has said in the past that we are professionals, not "hired labor"..."hired labor" gets paid by the hour for time spent actually working. We know that our costs are way beyond "time actually spent on the job". [That doesn't mean that we don't use "estimated time" and an hourly rate to help us price a project. I'm trying real hard to stay clear of the "hired labor" perception (which, by the way, is why most people coming to us expect to pay little for the work we do). Remember that the intangible of our expertise is worth ALOT. Can your customer do what we do? I deliver a multi-colored, multi-layered finish, furniture grade door to my customers that must stand up to a hostile climate, be very low maintenance, and maintain its beauty over a period of years. What painters know how to do that? When you learn to deliver a product that very few people know how to deliver, there is an intangible value to that that you have a right to be compensated for. Does an artist get paid for his art by the time spent...of course not. I'm not saying that it is an easy sell, but I am increasingly determining what jobs I take by whether or not I am assured the customer is willing to pay for what I believe it takes for a successful job.
3) In our line of work it is very difficult to establish "CONTEXT" for pricing. That is my challenge, and it is tough. We know what it costs to get carpets cleaned, or have the car worked on...we may not like it, but we pay it because "that is what it costs". No offense, but it doesn't help when newbees to the business undercut my pricing, not realizing how much it really costs to do the work. I just priced a replacement fiberglass door for a customer...nice one, but typical Arts and Crafts styling... my cost $1,900...unfinished, unhung. And people scream when I tell them that it will cost them $2,000 to $2,500 (at least depending on the complexity of the project) to restore their 125 year old door to its original condition with a beautiful, long lasting finish.... Gotta provide "CONTEXT"!
More later...... THIS is the discussion that we need to have..."doing the business" is what we enjoy (especially the finishing part); "running the business" is hxxl (usually)!
Greg Doublestein
Vintage Door and Window Restorations
Indianapolis
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