Earthfiles: Alan Hicks Interview
David A. Riggs
(link forwarded to GVKS list by Kevin Flannagan). Original URL:
http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1392&category=Environment
Alan Hicks, M. S., Mammal Specialist, Endangered Species Program, New
York Department of Environmental Conservation, Albany, New York: "On
March 14, 2007, we went to one of our Indiana bat sites that's not too
far from where the original report came from. Our staff went in there
and a couple hours later, they called me and said there were dead bats
all over the place in there. So, it was really March 14, 2007, that it
became abundantly clear that something bad was going on. By the end of
2007, we found dead bats in a total of four caves within about a 7
mile radius of each other – in a very small area just west of Albany.
THAT'S THE NUMBERS OF 8,000 TO 11,000 BATS DIED?
Right. We don't know exactly how many died. But we had about 15,000
bats in that particular cave site and the count was down to about
6,000 by the time we surveyed it in March 2007.
So, we immediately began requesting surrounding states in the area and
our own staff started going out to other important bat sites in New
York to look for problems. We didn't find dead bats at most other
locations, but we found two more caves in close proximity to the
original first two caves that had similar levels of mortalities –
large numbers of bats being found dead.
That was the end by then at the end of March, beginning of April, when
bats would be leaving the caves and mines in New York state. So, there
was not much more we could do last year. But we contacted everybody
and said, 'OK, be on the look out for this stuff in the coming winter
(of 2008). On January 5, 2008, we had our first report of this problem
by a caver in the Albany area and it has continued to expand from
there.
We now have it in all sites we have checked within 80 miles of Albany,
New York, now. All the caves and mines we have surveyed have this bat
death problem.
THAT INCLUDES SOUTHWEST VERMONT AND WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS?
Right. And we have another site that's 130 miles beyond the original
four bat death caves that is now affected.
White Fungus Ring Around Bat Noses
IN BOTH WINTERS OF 2007 AND 2008, HAVE YOU ALL NOTICED THE RING OF
WHITE FUNGUS AROUND THE NOSES OF ALL THE DEAD BATS?
Oh, no. We call it the 'white-nose syndrome' because when researchers
went into the original cave, Haile's Cave just outside of Albany last
year, and discovered all the dead bats, of the bats that were still
alive, half of them had this white fungus around the nose. It's very
prominent and obvious. The staff came back to me and reported that
about half the bats they saw had this white fungus on them. And now we
have the same thing in winter 2008, but in a lot more caves.
Sick Bats Moving from Normal Roosts
to Front of Caves
But there are a couple of other characteristics of this problem that
were pretty evident. One is that the bats tend to shift towards the
entrance of the caves, or toward the colder parts of the caves.
Generally, it's toward the front entrance of the caves. Bats have a
very specific range of temperatures and humidities that they are
looking for when they are hibernating. Bats are very reliable about
returning to the same cave or mine every year. They are also very
reliable about going to the same roost. We have one site in New York
we always reference in this regard. I could go there and set up a
camera in July and have it focused on this particular rock and then
have the camera fire in the middle of February and every Indiana bat
in that part of the state of New York would be in that photograph.
Year after year, the bats are so reliable that they actually stain the
wall from years and years of use in the same roost sites. So, when the
bats move from the roosts, abandon the roosts, something is up.
Bats Leaving Hibernation to Fly in Daylight
So, the bats moving to the front of the caves is one anomalous
characteristic that we saw. Another was the bats being seen flying
around over the landscape in daylight. The affected bats – almost
without exception – have greatly depleted fat reserves. The carcasses
we've picked up were so depleted, they might have fallen from their
roost into the cave water and drowned. The affected bats have greatly
reduced fat reserves. In mid-February, you should have the fat
reserves you'd have in April to May when you come out of hibernation.
So, if you are a bat and you hibernate, your life depends on going
into the fall with enough fat supplies to carry you through to the
spring. Your life depends on your conserving your fat reserves so
you'll have enough energy to carry through until spring. For reasons
that we do not understand, the fat reserves in the sick bats are
depleted so much that the bats are starving to death.
Sick Bats Not Responding to Human Presence
The fungus – when I went back to the original site this year – there
were about 1500 bats. I did not see the fungus on any of the bats. But
they were all crowded forward at the entrance of the cave and the bats
did not respond to my presence, which is another indication of the
problem.
Typically, we only do these surveys every couple of years because when
you go into the caves, a large percentage of the bats when you're done
will be awake and flying around and chattering and making all kinds of
noise. This burns up fat reserves more quickly than you would want it
to happen. So, you don't do this very often.
When I went in this January on the same route we normally do for our
surveys, I got back to the entrance and had not heard a single bat on
the entire trip and I only saw one individual flying. So, these guys
are doing everything they can to not burn up their fat reserves – to
the point of ignoring what they would normally consider a threat, that
being us humans walking through.
Unprecedented Bat Death Syndrome
HAVE YOU RECEIVED LAB RESULTS BACK FROM CORNELL, MADISON, COLUMBIA, OR
ANYBODY YET ON ANYTHING THAT'S PRELIMINARY?
Basically there is no smoking gun yet from any of the labs. Whatever
the problem is, it is not obvious to the labs. It's clearly a problem
that is spreading. Last year it was more localized and now it's much
more widespread this year.
NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN THIS SYNDROME BEFORE?
To my knowledge - and information about this syndrome has gone out to
most bat researchers in North America – I know of no records of
sustained and expanding mortality from one site to another as we're
seeing here.
FROM ONE WINTER TO THE NEXT.
Not only one winter to the next, but being in one cave and then two
caves and then ten caves and expanding out from there.
HOW MANY CAVES ARE AFFECTED RIGHT NOW AT THE END OF FEBRUARY 2008?
I'm not really sure because as I glance at my emails right now, the
bottom of the list is another affected site in Vermont. I've been out
in the field getting samples the past couple of days. But it's got to
be close to 20 sites.
IS THAT CLOSE TO HALF A MILLION BATS?
Yes, very close to half a million bats.
THE MORTALITY RATE IS AVERAGING 50% IN EACH CAVE?
I wish it were 50%!
HOW MUCH IS IT?
Of the four sites affected last year and we've re-visited this year,
we've re-visited two of them and are going to go into the other two in
the next couple of days. But of the two we've revisited, we've had a
90% and 97% decline in their numbers since the last survey prior to
the syndrome being discovered in January 2007.
SO, NEARLY 100% OF THE BATS ARE DYING IN THE AFFECTED CAVES!
Yeah.
NOW, YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR THE NEW YORK CONSERVATION AGENCY FOR 30
YEARS. DO YOU HAVE ANY GUT FEELING ABOUT WHAT COULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR
ALL THE BAT DIE-OFF?
I have yet to meet a bat biologist anywhere in North America who does
not say, 'Oh, wow! This is the worst thing I've ever seen.'
WHY SHOULD THE CAUSE OF SO MUCH MORTALITY BE SO DIFFICULT TO FIND?
That is a very good question. It's very odd. I want to make sure that
folks understand that the fungus associated with the nose is not
necessarily the cause of death. It could be a symptom of another
problem.
HAVE THE LABS BEEN ABLE TO IDENTIFY THAT WHITE FUNGUS?
They are working on it.
SO, EVEN THE FUNGUS IDENTITY IS NOT KNOWN?
Not the last email exchange I had, it was not confirmed, no.
SO, THE WHITE FUNGUS IS A MYSTERY AS WELL AS CAUSE OF DEATH?
Right.
WHEN YOU HAVE LOOKED AT THE BAT BODIES YOU HAVE COLLECTED TO SEND TO
THE LABS, WHAT IS ESPECIALLY UNUSUAL?
The bats are thin. The bodies are all thin. The presence of the white
fungus on some individuals - I had never seen this before in my career
and neither had any of the other research folks. A few scientists have
seen it on a few bats in a stressful situation, but nothing on the
level of deaths here. Scientists think the white fungus is a response
to some other stress, which allows the fungus to take hold. [ See
Thermal Camera Research below.]
Are Bats Starving to Death?
OF THE BATS THAT HAVE DIED, WHAT IS THEIR LARGEST FOOD SOURCE?
They eat flying insects. They are rather opportunistic. Generally, the
Myotis group – the little brown bats, Indiana bats and things of that
sort – they feed on small moths, midges, mosquitoes if they are
available. Those bats go out and take whatever they can find that's in
the size range of what they typically eat.
WE KNOW THAT THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES HAD A MEETING WITHIN THE
PAST YEAR AND A HALF ABOUT THE SERIOUS DECLINE IN ALL POLLINATORS,
WHICH WOULD INCLUDE MOTHS. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THE BATS ARE SHOWING US
THERE HAS BEEN SUCH A DECLINE IN INSECTS THAT THEY ARE NOT GETTING
ENOUGH FOOD?
Well, folks have suggested that numerous times. I'm a little skeptical
of that, though, because the problem was so localized in the first
year – just four caves. And our bats do not spend the summer in these
caves. They just winter in there. Some of them go from 50 to 100 miles
or so from where they spend the winter to where they spend the summer.
The summer colonies that they form are made up of bats from multiple
hibernating groups of a number of species. So, it seems that if it
were a food-related issue on the summer range, then it would have to
affect many more hibernating bats at the same time because bats from
the same summer locations are going to multiple places to hibernate.
So, it would not be just one little site in New York. And if it were a
food-related problem, then it was a food-related problem that was very
focused in the Albany area and has now expanded out in all directions
in just one year.
WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD MAKE THE BATS FLY OUT OF THE CAVE IN THE DEAD
OF THE WINTER?
They are starving. They are hanging on the walls saying to themselves,
'I can hang here and die,' which many of them do. Or, I can fly out of
here and hope there is food out there. And they do and they die (not
enough food reserves in their bodies to fly around.) But what exactly
has caused their fat to disappear? That's what we don't know.
It's unsettling, this whole thing, how quickly it's occurred and how
it's expanded."
Thermal Infrared Camera Research
Many top-notch scientists and laboratories have joined the search to
find what is killing all the bats. One of those researchers is Thomas
Kunz, Ph.D., Prof. of Biology and Director of the Center for Ecology
and Conservation Biology at Boston University. Dr. Kunz is also an
expert in bats. He told me what is happening to the northeastern bats
is unprecedented. He explained that normal, healthy bats in
hibernation can be waked up without much problem within 40 minutes to
an hour. During that slow waking process, the hibernating bat's body
temperature will rise from about 2 degrees Celsius to about 39 degrees
– depending upon the ambient winter time temperature outside.
He took thermal infrared cameras into one of the New York caves
affected by the white-nose-fungus syndrome to study the bat body
temperatures and to see how long it took for the bats suffering the
white-nose syndrome to arouse. Prof. Kunz's research confirmed that
after four hours, the white-nose bats were still not moving. He told
me, "That suggests to us that those bats don't have any fat left to
fuel even flying outdoors to look for food, let alone move their
bodies in the cave roost. Some of the white-nose bats have flown
outside, apparently to look for food. But that is very unprecedented
for bats to be flying around in mid-winter when there is snow on the
ground and the temperatures are cold."
Prof. Kunz hopes to have more data by the end of March and Alan Hicks
hopes that other laboratories such as Cornell, Columbia and Madison,
Wisconsin, might have more clues by then – maybe even an answer.
But Mr. Hicks told me, "I think global warming is throwing Nature so
far out of balance that we're going to see more and more Earth
creatures unable to cope with all the rapid changes. More and more
extinctions are going to occur – and only then will humans see for
themselves what happens when the coral reefs are dead, most amphibians
are gone and maybe even bats aren't around to help control insects."
--
David A. Riggs <david....@gmail.com>
Aaron Bird
It unfortunately reminds me of the decline of honey bees. When I was a kid, my friends and I had to take great pains to avoid the bees while running through our neighborhood yards in summertime. Now seeing more than one or two honey bees at a time is cause for celebration.
The implications of what Alan Hicks is discussing in this interview with nearly 100% mortality (or relocation) for each cave looks just like more sad and sobering commentary on the outcomes of a rapidly changing planet... However, hopefully this will turn out to be a localized poisoning or sickness event, which while very tragic in its own right, would be so much more preferable than a widespread bat pandemic.
John Tudek
Disregarding the copious use of the exclamation point and the SHOUTING, it still falls into the same problems that every other bat-article has.
-it overestimates the first year's bat deaths.
-it suggests that in every cave affected, the mortality rate is 97%.
-it keeps calling WNS a 'disease' when no pathogen has been found.
-it states that the fungus is 'unknown'. when, in fact, the genus is well known.
It also brings up the global warming issue, which again has no fundamental relevance to the discussion. (if you want to discuss that with me, buy me a beer and I'll talk all night about it- or until the beer runs out lol)
That's just from a casual reading of the article. Looking at the site in general, they're not what you would call 'professional journalists'. A quick scan of the front page has EMF stories and about 1/3 to half the articles are UFO stories. I believe the site to be pretty much about as credible as the 'National Enquirer'.
John Tudek
Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game.
David A. Riggs
>
> > On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 10:53 AM, David A. Riggs <david....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > This is an excellent interview with NYDEC bat specialist Alan Hicks
> > > (link forwarded to GVKS list by Kevin Flannagan). Original URL:
> > >
> > > http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1392&category=Environment
> > >
>
> still falls into the same problems that every other bat-article has.
John, did you even follow the link and read this?
It is an interview with Al Hicks; the SHOUTING is to delineate what is
said by the interviewer and the interviewee. The exclamation points
were because the interviewer was shocked by many of the extreme
(factual) statements that were made. I agree, the website isn't
pretty, but this is first-hand information from one of the primary WNS
researchers.
> -it overestimates the first year's bat deaths.
Read the first question in the interview. Hicks is asked about an
estimate, and he replies "We don't know exactly how many died. But we
had about 15,000 bats in that particular cave site and the count was
down to about 6,000 by the time we surveyed it in March 2007."
> -it suggests that in every cave affected, the mortality rate is 97%.
No, the summary suggests 97% mortality rate in multiple caves. In the
actual interview, Hicks quotes actual numbers (90% and 97% in two
caves).
> -it keeps calling WNS a 'disease' when no pathogen has been found.
The word 'disease' is found exactly one time on the entire page, and
it does not refer to WNS.
> It also brings up the global warming issue, which again has no fundamental
> relevance to the discussion.
Maybe *you* think it has no relevance to the discussion, but that is a
quote from Alan Hicks. I don't personally agree with it either, but
he's a bit more qualified than you or I are to make that statement.
> That's just from a casual reading of the article.
Perhaps you should have given it more than a casual reading before
commenting so harshly?
> That's just from a casual reading of the article. Looking at the site in general,
> they're not what you would call 'professional journalists'. A quick scan of the
> front page has EMF stories and about 1/3 to half the articles are UFO stories.
> I believe the site to be pretty much about as credible as the 'National Enquirer'.
Alan Hicks needs no introduction. You may read the interviewer's
credentials here and decide whether you consider her a journalist or
not. She writes about UFO's, but she also has a Master's from
Stanford.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Moulton_Howe
- DR
John Tudek
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 5:26 PM, John Tudek <hewho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 10:53 AM, David A. Riggs <david....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > This is an excellent interview with NYDEC bat specialist Alan Hicks
> > > (link forwarded to GVKS list by Kevin Flannagan). Original URL:
> > >
> > > http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1392&category=Environment
> > >
>
> Disregarding the copious use of the exclamation point and the SHOUTING, itJohn, did you even follow the link and read this?
> still falls into the same problems that every other bat-article has.
No Dave, I just happened to guess exactly at what was being said. Its a gift.
It is an interview with Al Hicks; the SHOUTING is to delineate what is
said by the interviewer and the interviewee. The exclamation points
were because the interviewer was shocked by many of the extreme
(factual) statements that were made. I agree, the website isn't
pretty, but this is first-hand information from one of the primary WNS
researchers.
Regardless, its bad form and suggests a lack of professionalism on the website. And if the reporter can't keep her composure about something like this, what is she going to do when a real story comes out - like a war? Seriously, it's amateur. The accepted way would be to use the newspaper's name (or the website's name) and Al Hicks' name with colons after them, thusly.
Website: blather blather blather blather blather
Mr. Hicks: blather blather blather blather blather
Read the first question in the interview. Hicks is asked about an
> -it overestimates the first year's bat deaths.
estimate, and he replies "We don't know exactly how many died. But we
had about 15,000 bats in that particular cave site and the count was
down to about 6,000 by the time we surveyed it in March 2007."
> -it suggests that in every cave affected, the mortality rate is 97%.No, the summary suggests 97% mortality rate in multiple caves. In the
actual interview, Hicks quotes actual numbers (90% and 97% in two
caves).
"But until now, no bat researcher had ever heard of 97% mortality in bats hibernating in two or four or ten or twenty different caves"
This is a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts associated with the story. More bad journalism :(
And I did not state that Al Hicks said 97%, i said the ARTICLE said 97%. Perhaps YOU should read more carefully.
The word 'disease' is found exactly one time on the entire page, and
> -it keeps calling WNS a 'disease' when no pathogen has been found.
it does not refer to WNS.
The use of the term rinforces a subconscious link between the idea of disease and WNS. Its the same shoddy journalism that tries to label O'Bama as a terrorist by continuing to use the term Muslim.
Maybe *you* think it has no relevance to the discussion, but that is a
> It also brings up the global warming issue, which again has no fundamental
> relevance to the discussion.
quote from Alan Hicks. I don't personally agree with it either, but
he's a bit more qualified than you or I are to make that statement.
How is a person with a PhD in biology more qualified than an MS Student in Geology when discussing Climatology, which is a subset of Meterology? Both climatology and meterology are subdisciplines of the atmospheric sciences? Did you even read and see what he had a PhD in? Or did you just read PhD and stop?
Perhaps you should have given it more than a casual reading before
> That's just from a casual reading of the article.
commenting so harshly?
Perhaps you should have read the article more carefully before proclaiming it so wondrous?
Alan Hicks needs no introduction. You may read the interviewer's
> That's just from a casual reading of the article. Looking at the site in general,
> they're not what you would call 'professional journalists'. A quick scan of the
> front page has EMF stories and about 1/3 to half the articles are UFO stories.
> I believe the site to be pretty much about as credible as the 'National Enquirer'.
credentials here and decide whether you consider her a journalist or
not. She writes about UFO's, but she also has a Master's from
Stanford.
Again, my gripe was about the professionalism in the article as a person with a BA in english and who spent a semester working for a real newspaper. I have also given several newspaper interviews, so I have some small knowledge of the industry.
And quite frankly the fact that she has an MS from Stanford and CAN'T get a newspaper job sends up more warning signs than anything else.
And I apologize if my reply sounds strong. You set that tone.