New Burn Basket Design

[james paget]

I Purchased my Wiseway 1949 Stove in February and after three days of burning had my burn basket failed.  A weld had failed I contacted USSC  customer service and they sent me a another burn basket.  when I received it  also was poorly made.  So I decided to design my own burn basket.  I have tested my burn baskets for a little over 40 bags of 100% Douglas Fir Pellets.  So I thought I would share my experience with others.  My basket now fits in the firebox, I used 3/8 thick steel x 2 inches wide and 4 inches long.  I tack welded the ends of the side together.  I  measured my spacing for the rods at 5/16  then drilled through both pieces of the sides, when drilling was complete I used 3O4 stainless rod inserted into the sides and welded the rods on the outside.  So my conclusion is that with solid sides heat stays in the burn basket better.  I now have a more efficient burn it stays very stable.  low is 500°high 700 plus.  I have increased my burned consumption from 22 hours with the original burn basket to 28 hours of Burn time with my burn basket.  My test was done using one bag of Douglas fir pellets running the stove on low.  I also have noticed a whole lot less carbon buildup and a lot cleaner stove.  This basket cycles very good,  the pellets collapse when burnt,  No more messing with the basket, the spacing stays the same do not have to adjust it every few days like the original.  So I will share some pictures of the basket.  I can only speak from my experience with my setup I am at 4300 feet and I am using six inch stovepipe.  I am not a welder so don't judge me on my welding skills first time welder.  If you have some spare time and the ability tried one of these burn baskets it may work for you also.  I have made several of these baskets and they all work equally well.  Spacing is very important I have made one with 1/4 inch of spacing for warmer time of the year works very well  400°on the low 600°on high. the 5/16 spacing 500°on low 700°plus on high.  So far they have held up very well we will see how long it takes for one to burn out.

[Flyer 304]

Good Afternoon James,

Thank you for sharing your burn basket designs and burn observations.

 Once you have decided on which one you will stay with (or one for the dead of winter and one for the shoulder months), will you make them up using 330 Stainless?

I used 316L stainless when I made up the beveled side plates for the bottom of the feed tube (where there is a slight  ledge on each side that holds pellets) above the burn basket.

From what I read the 316L has better corrosion properties over the 304 series stainless.

 I believe, if memory still serves me right, Gary went  beyond 316 and used 330 stainless for the burn baskets after the initial reports in the field of the baskets burning in out. This was a few years ago I believe.

 

Not sure what other changes were done by USSC when they acquired the rights for the GW1949 and started manufacturing and marketing. They did add latches to the Pellet hopper and feed hopper lids

With less volume to fill in your burn basket design (the side plates), I can see how consumption (burn rate) would be slightly lower.

With the difference in the gap spacing you mentioned, that would explain the temp changes you have between the 2 different spacings.

I gather that the basket with the 1/4" spacing was the one that yeilded you the 28 hours of burn.

Did the wider spacing  basket give you what the OEM basket was (22hours) for burn time, or did you also gain slightly with the higher heat unit as well?

I may have to give it a try and use this basket layout in conjunction with the plates I fitted  in the feed tube of my GW2014. These were shown in the topic titled "GW2014 Steam Punk edition"

Looks like I have an excuse to get a small drill press. Now I just need someone with a welder.

Thanks again for sharing.

Sterling

[james paget]

Hello flyer 304  at this time I will not be making the burn baskets out of 330 stainless steel.  I am going to use the baskets this upcoming winter and see how long they will hold up.   I would guess that it should hold up through five tons of pellets with no problem.  Now that I do not have to cut six cords of firewood, split in stack for the winter I have more time on my hands to make some burn baskets.  I sure love the way this wiseway GW 1949 works, heats my 1400 square foot house very easily.  Here in Central Oregon I am still using my stove 4 hour burn in the morning and 4 hour burned in the evening.

During my testing of the New Burn basket I would go back and use the original burn basket that came with the stove for comparisons I did this six different times and the results were the same.  the original burn basket after burning four a few hours would slowly lose heat in the basket area you then have to poke at the basket to bring the heat up again.

With my new burn basket with enclosed sides the temperature stays more consistent in the basket and there is no need to poke  the basket at all.  You still have to shake the secondary every 6 to 7 hours nothing has changed their.  with my stove setup this new basket makes a huge improvement in ease of running.  Good luck in making the baskets well worth the effort.  I'd just don't know why the manufacturer would not explore a better burn basket to me it is like having a 69 muscle car with a two barrels carburetor just doesn't work very well.

james

[Flyer 304]

Good Afternoon James,

What diameter stainless steel rod did you use?

You mentioned that the plates were 2" x 4" and that it was 3/8", should this have read 3/16" for the plates thickness?

Looking at the one photo with the basket in the burn chamber, your plates look close in thickness to that of the inboard body of the burn chamber.

Just wanted to make sure before I try ordering some metal stock.

Also with your mentioning of the side plates gives me thought of doing fill plates for the sides of an OEM burn basket.

Just a thought for an experiment.

Sterling 

[james paget]

Sorry about that I guess the coffee hadn't kicked in yet yes you are right 3/16 for the plate thickness and the rods are 1/4 inch ,,not much on running these computers very well.

james

[Flyer 304]

Good evening,

Coffee is our friend!

Especially when 4:45am alarm sounds during work week.

Thanx for verifying plates as 3/16" thickness. 

So will use (0.1875" thick  x 2"wide)  for plate dimensions to order the bar stock. One online place only $11.59 for 12" in length and $1.46 for the 1/4" steel rod by 12" length. Both 316L Stainless

Only issue is shipping is as much as the pieces order.

[Gary Wisener]

Hi I'm Gary the original inventor of the Wise Way I've experimented with a lot of baskets over the years one of the obstacles for the manufacturer to incorporate a new basket design is the stove has to be completely retested which requires many thousands of dollars that's one deterrent another is the manufacturing process of the burn baskets I have made baskets in the past that are similar to yours your design requires many more manufacturing processes you building a few and selling them out of your garage you don't have to take that into consideration but to manufacture thousands of them you do. labor is expensive they'res been a lot of times that I have manufactured 40 or 50 baskets in a couple of hours.  the WiseWay standard basket has 1/4 round we started using 316 stainless  when we  first started Manufacturing as we got more and more out we found 316 didn't last we started using 330 stainless. Very expensive  Your Design is good and probably works good but on large scale Manufacturing you would have to charge well over $100 for material and labor cost to be covered I have developed a new basket I've been testing in my stove and it works well can build one in probably 15 minutes very little labor but it requires a $20,000 CNC plasma cutter to make them it's great having people like you experimenting on the WiseWay enjoy your experimenting

Gary

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[Flyer 304]

Good Morning Gary,

Thank you for your feedback about Jame's basket designs.

With the rods fixed in the plates, there would be less fluctuation of the gaps between the rods. Have been running my OEM basket at a gap of about .315 to .316. This can change is handled to firmly while doing a detail cleaning. 

Also, your input with what becomes involved when things get scaled up for mass producing, shows the cost of things and where you sometimes have to make a decision at what price point you want to be at when bringing a product to market versus enhancements that bring additional function but at a greater cost. Difficult to find a balance, given the diversity of consumers in the marketplace.

Don't know if you had viewed post  "GW2014 Steam Punk Edition" or images I showed in reply to Jame's posts, where I showed the bevel plates I made for the lower area of the feed tube, that essentially cover over the ledges on each side of the opening where the burn chamber with burn basket are in position. 

I think with these plates and a different basket such as James' has shown , should further improve the stoves efficientcy in terms of burn rate, but I believe, as James has seen with his baskets and I have seen with the bevel plates, the operation is cleaner. Use the Douglas fir pellets is still the best basis for the stove, using the DF and these enhancements, the stove flat out runs.

This is seen at longer burn durations. Mentioned earlier in thread, with the plates, I saw only a 50 degree drop in an overnight burn and once I clean out the non glowing build up at the front of the burn basket (closest to the daisy wheel), stove regained in under a minute.

James mentioned about there being more heat held in place with the basket designs, which may be true.

But, I see that there is less fuel present for the air passing through the given volume of fuel. I believe this changes the Air to fuel ratio and with the 5/15" gap James had set, allows for temps seen with the OEM basket running DF, but with less fuel. So it gets it closer to an ideal stoichiometric mixture (ratio) for the particular fuel that is present.

One observation I saw after installing the bevel plates, was when I made changes in how much I opened the Daisy wheel on the GW2014. There seemed to be more sensitivity/ adjustability that was within seconds and not minutes as is seen when you work the draft slide.

Seeing this, after clearing the secondary plate and emptying the ash box, I used the daisy wheel to do my final temp setting for the overnight burn before going to bed. Small movements showed changes in 25 degree increments. Was nice to "fine tune" before going to bed by simply adjusting the daisy wheel.

So I'm game for trying a basket, like James presented, as it looks like the combination of his basket and my plates should enhance a great stove, so that there is even less clean up and  potentially see longer burn times on the same amount of fuel.

Being on the East Coast and the Douglas fir prices being what they are here (expensive!!!), these additions will help offset this.

Have to say when I first installed my stove, there was a learning curve about the stove and the fuel used, I was bummed a few times.

But now with experience (only 3 months) and the feedback & experiences of others on this forum, the stove does what it should and I understand the relationship of certain items that make the stove run.

I may have a bit more draft than I need, but I have never had the stove smoke on shut downs and with getting some 100% DF, see a difference in the stoves' operation.

 Adding the bevel plates produced cleaner feed tube with less build up and no more sticking pellets on the little ledges at the opening above the burn chamber & basket area. Cleaner in & around this same area.

 Trying the burn basket like James has presented seems to be the other component to enhance (refine) how long the stove can run and a further reduce what cleaning is done after shut down as there is less build up in the feed tube and the burn tube areas. 

Glad I did purchase the Wiseway (did the GW2014 instead of the GW1949 because of the insulated 6" stainless chinmey system I have, didn't want to do a reline).

Advantage of a wood stove, but running on pellet fuel.  Best of all, still doesn't require electricity and I don't have to process firewood anymore. Saves my 61 year old back. 

Thanks for the design! 

Gary, also another thank you for being active with the forum, checking in and giving input, updates, and observations.

One question, is there a web link to get energy efficiency certificate for the GW2014?

Looking to have that, so I can submit the the Federal alternate energy rebate if it becomes available for 2017 (year I purchased the GW2014) as it has for previous years.

Respectfully,

Sterling 

  

      

 

[james paget]

Hello Gary my intent of showing my basket design was too encourage others to give it a try.  You are going to need what I would call some redneck skills of working with your hands and have a garage full of tools.  This design has made my stove so much easier to operate and run cleaner and more efficient.  But will it work for others.  There are a lot of factors involved altitude quality of pellets and where you live in the country.

as I said I am at 4300 feet and have access to premium Dougfir pellets.  Let me make this clear I have no intent of making baskets and selling them out of my garage.  I am retired and have better things to do there are fish to catch and if I get lucky I might be able to talk and Elk to come home and fill my freezer. 

I agree with you on the manufacturing you would need a very expensive water jet machine to produce the sides and I'm sure you know how expensive those are.  The only reason I made my own was the one that came with my stove failed in four days and I'm sure you know what happens when a large amount of pellets dropped onto the secondary burn plate things get very hot.

USSC sent me a replacement basket I will include pictures of it and as you can see poorly made I don't know who's welding up these baskets but there definitely needs to be some quality control at USSC in my opinion the replacement basket would fail also.  So I design my own I will sleep a lot better at night with the stove running.

Let me remind you all you have to do is read all the comments about the stoves there clearly is a need for a quality burn basket and also if you are going to sell replacement parts there is a need for a daisy wheel for the GW 1949.

Also let me remind you this is the USA quality over quantity wins every time.

James

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[Flyer 304]

Second on catching fish, just a few years short to  be retired though.

 Will probably make up a basket, but won't be trying any burns until the fall now.

94 today here in Connecticut, so working the A/Cs rather than the stove.

As James has mentioned of himself, there is no intent on my part either, to manufacturer, but look to improve upon how my stove is presently operating.

The burn basket is the next logical item to look at for that improvement.

 Plates installed worked to where there was a visible difference in operation and I see the use of a different basket as an addition to see gains in operational performance & maintenance. 

Beyond the burn basket, if quality fuel is being used, and draft is proper, there really isn't anything else that is needed. Operation is that basic.     

Gary already mentioned about the need and costs associated for testing an item to retain already certified approvals, for the item to be incorporated into commercial production.

Time and monies, with the latter being the largest impact and investment.  

James, are these pictures of the replacement basket you were sent from USSC?

Seems to look like a rejected part from one of the earlier designs Matt had mentioned they tried.

Didn't know this style went into production. 

Don't know if they (USSC) acquired all inventory when sale was made and if perhaps T&E stuff got mixed with other items, but then got put into spare part bins in error.

Sterling

[james paget]

Hello Sterling yes the burn basket in the photo is a replacement for the original That failed both of these baskets were built the same the photo is actually the better one the first one was terrible and fell apart in four days.  Don't know what happened to quality control  the welded very poorly.  I agree on the manufacturing process that to make a quality burn basket would be expensive to the consumer but if you have the choice of replacing one every six months to one that would last several years I think consumers would prefer a better quality one

Sterling when you get ready to make your sides of your burn basket you lay out the dimensions and center punch where you want to drill.    first drill a 1/8 hole for all of your rods, than drill your 1/4 holes this way the drill does not wander and you're holds will be precise I did take notice to the pieces that you made for the sides I get time I may try to make some myself

james

[Flyer 304]

Good Evening James,

I hear ya about using pilot holes, particularly when doing the 5/16" spacing. Better a little less gap than more.

Was the spacing the same for the two rods on each end of the basket?

When you go to do the plates and have them hand fitted, the next step is to drill the holes in the stove for the mounting bolts. Do the front one first and make sure you're above  where the ledge is in the feed tube. run a straight edge along the top edge of the burn tube, this should indicate where the burn tube & feed tube meet and staing above that plane keeps you above the ledge. I then used the built in level of the cordless drill to keep the drill bit level to drill the rear hole, using the front hole as the intial guide and watching the level. 

Another thing to note is, depending on which side the seam for the tube is that makes up the feed tube,  you may have to file a groove on the back of one of the plates to clear this seam and allow the plate to sit flat against the tube. Plates were made with 316L bar stock 0.375" thick x 1.250" in width. Luckily, co worker has a class mate that owns a machine shop and he milled the groove in the back of the bar stock and cut the  initial angle, I then hand filed to profile for the bevel. Pellets can't sit on the ledge and have to roll/fall into the burn basket. 

The basic dimensions are attached and I believe he said he used a standard end for the groove. Holes drilled in stove are 1/4"  and mounting bolts used were 1/4-28 x 3/4". I ended up drilling all the way through the plates, but had initially tried doing them as blind holes. Did not like what little thread engagement there was with this set up, so went with through holes. Bolts do not protrude and plates are removable for cleaning if needed. I do not overtighten,      (just barely snug) as I allow for expansion with the heating & cooling. Don't like snapped bolts.

Your mileage may vary and you may want to wait till your warranty expires. 

I have the GW2014, USSC doesn't make that model and as such GW2014 does not have a warranty even though was purchased new in the box in April. 

It's all metal, not too much to go wrong.

Time to wrap it up, 4:45am comes too early.

Kuerig all set up waiting to brew.

Sterling

  

[Flyer 304]

Good Morning,

Saw I had a broken sentence in original post. Mentioned about basic dimensions being attached and then rolled on about machine shop owner used a standard end.

So much for how I cut & paste. Should have read that the shop owner indicated the width of the cut for the groove could be done with a standard size end mill. 

One other note for when plates are installed:

 You will need to dress down the outer edges of the cross bars of the burn basket that sit atop the burn chamber.

The plates are .375 below the ledge area of the feed tube, as such it brings them in close proxcimity to the burn chamber /and burn basket.

The burn chamber needs to be lifted (tilted up) at the end to remove it from the burn tube. Without dresssing the ends of the burn basket cross pieces, there is less room and chamber may bind against the bottom of the plates.

Earlier photo shows the chamfer I did to give more clearence to allow the burn chamber to be removed in the normal fashion.

In attached photo, you can see the end of the left side of the burn basket support rod and how it was filed and dressed to provide clearence so chamber doesn't bind on removal or install.

Pretty much I shaped them so the ends were matching the radius of the corners of the burn chamber plus a little extra just to have enough wiggle room. 

Off to work.

 

[Gary Wisener]

I agree with you one hundred percent don't get the wrong idea I'm glad you're doing what you're doing you had just made the comment why didn't us stove come out with a better basket and I was just trying to explain what could be the reason why. I have made a much better basket but when I sold to us stove there's a five-year no compete clause in it so I can't put that basket out for sale or do anything to improve the stove without being in jeopardy it's not because I don't want to but I legally can't my last paragraph to you said glad you're experimenting I know there is a need I also have very big concerns about the quality of the stove produced I know for a fact it has been conveyed to us stove there's really not much I can do under the circumstances I wouldn't mind at all if you did make your baskets if it helped  the people that have  a WiseWay stove . the quality of the WiseWay has improved in the last 6 months

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[james paget]

Hello Gary I did understand what you were saying about manufacturing of a New basket design that USSC would have to spend thousands of dollars to test the new basket to make sure that It passed EPA certification.  I was just thinking that a big stove company could afford to design and Test a better basket.  I also would like to see a daisy wheel that would fit the GW 1949

I'm glad to hear you have designed a better basket there definitely is a need for one,  what is being produced now it is very substandard welding is terrible.  And I do understand your five year non compete  contract.

The  baskets that I received when I bought my stove left me no choice but to design my own out of necessity, I live in an area with heavy snowfall and very cold temperatures during the winter.  this is my main heat source.  I never thought that the basket design would work so well.

I was just trying to share my design with others that may be having the same problems with the substandard baskets falling apart.

But I am not interested in selling any baskets,   I would not want the liability that could be involved with that.

I was in the manufacturing business at one time making high End archery bows, I designed and manufactured them to thousands of an inch, they had to be able to withstand high pressures, extreme vibration without  de laminating and coming apart in a customer's face and injuring someone,  I very much understand the liability of producing products.

I love the design of the wiseway it works fantastic for me and my wife keeps our house  very warm much easier  then cutting, splitting stacking firewood.  I'm glad to hear that the stove is being improved.  All of my neighbors have seen my stove and are very interested.

I am surprised I did not see one of your stoves when you were producing them at a sportsman show.   I really think that would have been a good place to sell them

James

[Claudio Guillard]

Hello dear friend. My name is Claudio Guillard and I live in Chile, I am a lover of building systems of handmade heating, I have looked at this stove on the internet but in Chile they do not arrive besides asking for it on the internet, it would make its value rise by the clouds only in the transport. And for that reason it occurred to me to make one for me, for my house, but some things of her are complex to find them on the Internet. I have built everything but I can not understand the system of the primary combustion chamber, which has an air intake and also between chamber 2 and 3 a diagonal structure with a cut. It would be great to kindly ask him to take some pictures for me. I would be eternally grateful. I do not know where else to turn. Thank you very much. My email is cgui...@hotmail.com

[Flyer 304]

Good Evening James,

 

Have a little over 3 tons already stacked in the basement for the upcoming season.

Finally got around to ordering some 316L Stainless flat bar that is 3/16” thick and 2” by 12” in length and also some 316L ¼” dia. rod to make up the bars for a couple baskets.

I have configured the (2) to have ¼” spacing on the sides (vertical) and created patterns for

¼” and 5/16” gap spacing for the bottom rows of  he bars that make up the bottom of the burn basket where the burning pellets drop through.

 

To further aid in centering for setting the center punch markings, rather than directly trying to mark on the bar stock, I created paper pattern templates. Simply spray the bar stock with a low tack contact adhesive, like those used in various crafts, and set the pattern on the bar stock.

Intersecting lines are there to position the center punch and off you go.

Have these saved in a word document after I had made them using Excel. When the baskets wear out, just get some new material and print out the patterns and make a few more.

Below is a screen snap shot of the pattern drawings and I have also attached the doc that has these to scale. If you go to use them, make sure that the printer setting is at 100%. If printed correctly, the measured length of the paper patterns should be 4” and the height at 2”.

Don’t know if you did something similar when you constructed yours.  Easier for me to line up a 4” x 2” paper over a 4” x 2” piece of flat stock and just slap it on with the spray adhesive. Clamp the plates together and drill away. Given that the burn basket sits in the burn chamber, I gave thought that only the rods in each corner would need to be tack welded to the flat stock. The others can float, so to speak as the walls of the burn chamber prevents them from walking.

 The only other welding will be the crossbars atop the burn basket that rest on the top of the burn chamber.

Hope to get these done in a week or so.

Did you have to heat up the stainless before starting the weld? Did you use MIG or TIG?

Was thinking about one of those smaller units at Harbor Freight that use the rosin core feed wire rather than having to get into the expense of those systems where you need to run the bottle for the atmosphere. DO have a welder of my own, so was looking at from that angle.  

 

Have a good one.

 

Sterling 

 

[Flyer 304]

"DO have a welder..." should have read:  "Do not have a welder..."

[Flyer 304]

Looks like image didn't display, maybe due to size. trying it a different way.

These may not be to scale and are just a visual. The Word doc that was downloadable in 1st post should be used.

Just verify the printed templates measure 4" x 2"

[Flyer 304]

See that did work so tried it a different way.

Success.

As the samples show, with the 1/4" gap spacing used for the side and bottom, there are (14) bars used with (8) making up the basket bottom.

When using 5/15" gap spacing for the bottom, there are now (13) bars used with (7) making up the basket bottom, much like the basket you showed.

[james paget]

Good morning Sterling it is getting very cold here in Central Oregon in the low twenties.  I also have my pellets stalked up for the winter 4 tons of premium Doug fir pellets.  The welder I have been using is from harbor freight and is item number 61749 80 Amp inverter arc welder. it seems to work for stainless steel very well it is what you would call a stick welder.  I'm sure there are better welders some of the wire welders would probably do a better job.  My New Burn basket designed are working very well and I am very happy how clean they burn .  For layout of the basket I have been using a fine tip felt pen to mark the location to drill.  I do like your idea  better probably would make it a lot easier.  Good idea on the quarter inch spacing on the side that should help keep the pellets from falling through.    You will find that you will need to weld rods on ends to hold it together doesn't take very long. 

What i did was to use quarter inch threaded rod with nuts on all four quarters after drilling to hold it together why I welded in the quarter inch stainless rods.

Please let me know how you like the performance of the basket.

James

[ken woodbury]

James and Gary(Flyer 304),

I've followed this thread and want to make up these new basket designs. I have a good shop here in Western Maine that will do them for now(no welder). I posted a while ago about how I went through a basket and had problems with the new one...anyway...I'm curious, if, after a winter's burn you are just as satisfied with them now as you were at the outset of your project(s). How is the 316SS holding up? My guy has 304SS in stock and wondering if I could get away with that. Any thoughts for me on my project?

This will be my 5th winter heating my ski house with the 2014 stove...

ken

"the optimist fell 10 stories and

at each window bar he said

All right so far"