Re: Attacking the German WW" Transmission system using hydogen balloons trailing wires - which appeared to be extremely effective

[dave andrews]

Mark...yes I agree, mass imports from North Africa Desertec style seem to me to be hopelessly optimistic for the reasons you cite.

But I think the Czisch grid, which is a dispersed web as you put it seems much more plausible.

Dave

On 13 January 2012 17:36, Frank Holland <frankh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Mark,

This is just like a HazOp study we do in the chemical industry....what
happens if?

And was ever such a study done for our nukes, French nukes (relying on
hot river water in summer for cooling), US nukes?

And why a Mondeo, why not a Passat?

Frank

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 16:14 +0000, Barrett, Mark wrote:
>
>
> Of course you need redundancy depending on how much you want to reduce
> Loss of Load Probability, and failure could be due weather, technical
> failure as well as attack at transmission or indeed the CSP plant
> themselves. [And CSP plants will be say 10-100x size of wind turbine,
> so a lot more devastation per bang per buck,; in fact perhaps the more
> obvious target]
>
>
>
> But redundancy and protection costs money: e.g. 2 lines would cost 2 x
> 1 – 2 p/kWh Africa->UK = ~ 3-4 p/kWh; at least part of coal stations
> would be generally redundant because the point of the supergrid is to
> reduce dispatchable capacity.
>
>
>
> But terrorists will try to maximise disruption, so they’d target lines
> A, B and C simultaneously. And doubtless leave some nasties behind to
> deter repairers.
>
>
>
> It seems clear to me that pure import from Africa along a few high
> capacity lines is less secure than a web of exchange with embedded
> generators E-W across Europe.
>
> But I haven’t attempted any calcs.
>
>
>
> How desperately depressing a thread!
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Dr Mark Barrett, Senior lecturer
>
> UCL Energy Institute, Central House , 14 Upper Woburn Place
>
> London WC1H 0NN
>
> Location map:
> http://www.ucl.ac.uk/energy/contact-us/UCL_Energy-Institute_Map
>
> Web site: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/energy/
>
>
>
> Email:Mark.B...@ucl.ac.uk
>
> Personal site :www.bartlett.ucl.ac.uk/markbarrett/Index.html
>
> Tel UCL: +44 (0)20 3108 5983
> Tel Mobile: +44 (0)7837 338297
> Skype: MarkAlexBarrett (Mark Barrett)
>
>
>
> From: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of dave
> andrews
> Sent: 13 January 2012 15:56
> To: energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Attacking the German WW" Transmission system using
> hydogen balloons trailing wires - which appeared to be extremely
> effective
>
>
>
> yeah but we would just start up our coal stations on the months stocks
> of coal.
>
>
>
>
>
> Also Czisch lines were doubled, so if one went down, there was a
> second one a few miles away.  If both lines went down, then because
> his grid  is a gigantic ring main, it would feed around two alternate
> routes.
>
>
>
>
>
> Pylons in deserts  are I would have thought easy to guard because you
> would stand out somewhat amongst all the barrenness.
>
>
>
>
>
> Much easier to hop out of your ford mondeo on the M6 and run into a
> field to blow up the UK grid.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> On 13 January 2012 16:51, Barrett, Mark <mark.b...@ucl.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hit  pylons along 1000’s km, each with 5 GW HVDC? Across , say,
> Morocco, Spain, France to UK.
>
> Sounds hard to guard to me, and apparently a few kg will do it.
>
> http://www.dawn.com/2011/04/02/power-pylons-destroyed-in-blasts.html
>
>
> “Officials said that due to the destruction of 132KV power pylons,
> electricity was suspended to Mianwali and Dera Ismail Khan. According
> to the bomb disposal squad, the militants had planted 2kg explosives
> to each of the supporting pillar, which was detonated simultaneously
> with a huge noise bringing down both the pylons.”
>
> http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/detailed_news.asp?date1=1/29/2006&id=3
>
> Power pylon destroyed in Balochistan
>
> Maybe rather that than this:
>
> http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/nuclear/sizewell-b-terrorism-and-risks
>
>
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Dr Mark Barrett, Senior lecturer
>
> UCL Energy Institute, Central House , 14 Upper Woburn Place
>
> London WC1H 0NN
>
> Location map:
> http://www.ucl.ac.uk/energy/contact-us/UCL_Energy-Institute_Map
>
> Web site: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/energy/
>
>
>
> Email:Mark.B...@ucl.ac.uk
>
> Personal site :www.bartlett.ucl.ac.uk/markbarrett/Index.html
>
> Tel UCL: +44 (0)20 3108 5983
> Tel Mobile: +44 (0)7837 338297
> Skype: MarkAlexBarrett (Mark Barrett)
>
>
>
>
> From:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:energy-disc...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
> star...@yahoo.com
> Sent: 12 January 2012 23:08
> To: dave andrews; da...@davidhirst.com; Claverton AB MAIN GROUP;
> Claverton Supergrid group
> Subject: Re: Attacking the German WW" Transmission system using
> hydogen balloons trailing wires - which appeared to be extremely
> effective
>
>
>
>
> Dear All
>
>
>
>
>
> I am surprised that this "weopons system" which requires contstrction,
> launching, good weather prediction before the balloons even reach
> their target......I just wonder how susceptable Desertec and other
> proposals relying on HVDC would stand up this type of attack.
>
>
>
>
>
> Fred
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dave andrews <tynin...@gmail.com>
> To: da...@davidhirst.com; Claverton AB MAIN GROUP
> <energy-disc...@googlegroups.com>; Claverton Supergrid group
> <grid-supergrid-in...@googlegroups.com>; Starrfred
> <star...@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, 12 January 2012, 14:56
> Subject: Attacking the German WW" Transmission system using hydogen
> balloons trailing wires - which appeared to be extremely effective
>
>
>
>
> Daviid, this is too good not to share.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave A
>
>
> On 11 January 2012 22:55, David Hirst <da...@davidhirst.com> wrote:
>
> I think you will enjoy this.
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> David Hirst
>
>
> !-!?!-Hirst Solutions Limited
>
>
> Mobile:  +44 7831 405443
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dave Andrews
>
>
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