[WE Council] Voting active ...

1 view
Skip to first unread message

Wayne Mackintosh

unread,
May 7, 2010, 4:31:40 PM5/7/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Hi Everyone,

We're making progress and thank you for your patience. Almost there.

Voting is now active on the motion relating to advice and recommendations on WikiEducator's privacy policy. See:

http://tinyurl.com/26b5sxc

Please take a look and  cast your votes.

Cheers
Wayne


--
Wayne Mackintosh, Ph.D.
Director,
International Centre for Open Education,
Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand.
Board of Directors, OER Foundation.
Founder and Community Council Member, Wikieducator, www.wikieducator.org
Mobile +64 21 2436 380
User Page: http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg
Skype: WGMNZ1
Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WikiEducator Community Council" group.
To post to this group, send email to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to wikieducator-communit...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator-community-council?hl=en.

Leigh Blackall

unread,
May 7, 2010, 5:58:43 PM5/7/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Wayne, I've requested a point of order from you regarding the discussion between Kim and I on the motion for the 3rd Party Media.
--
--
Leigh Blackall
+61(0)404561009
skype - leigh_blackall
leighb...@gmail.com
http://leighblackall.blogspot.com

Wayne Mackintosh

unread,
May 7, 2010, 6:20:54 PM5/7/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Hi Leigh (and Council)

I'm just off to watch Anthony's (my son's) soccer match) -- and will respond to your point of order when I get back. Valid point which needs to be addressed.

BTW -  on another point of order  --  I assume your resignation date to be the official adjournment of the meeting (rather than the specified date.)  You have every right to vote as full council member as adjournment may not be sorted by 7 May 2010.

It would be great if you, Kim and Council members could try and nut out workable straw Dog 3 -- perhaps the solution is an incremental one? Do a bit now, working towards the bigger goal.

To be fair, this is a complex issue on both sides of the fence.  I  worry about the "community" taking responsibility and ownership for file conversions -- we have something like 24K plus images without licensing data, and the community isn't fixing this yet  :-(.

Anyways, must run now -- I'll post a response to your query after the match.

Cheers
Wayne






Cheers

Wayne Mackintosh

unread,
May 7, 2010, 11:49:35 PM5/7/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Hi Leigh,

Was a good match (our team won :-)) -- It's a pleasure to watch seniors play soccer -- you get to see the ball because 20 players are not swarming around the ball!

Leigh, thank you for raising a significant point of order. I agree that the use of encumbered file formats (like MP3 and FLV) does draw Wikieducator's current status into question. Clearly, this is a transgression of our policy to adhere to free cultural works licensing.

You are right that installing the MP3 and FLV player extensions was my decision. I've explained the background in the wiki --

http://wikieducator.org/Community_Council/Meetings/Third/Guidelines_for_embedding_links_to_third_party_media#Point_of_order

However, I must offer a public apology to the WikiEducator community for not ensuring that a free file format of these resource would be available in addition to the encumbered formats on the site. I take full responsibility for this error, and I will personally work at converting each MP3 and FLV file on the wiki so that we have also have an free file format equivalent available. (I hope that I'll get a little help otherwise I'm going to be pretty busy these coming weekends ;-))

I trust that the Council and community will accept my apology for transgressing our community policy.

Cheers
Wayne







On 8 May 2010 09:58, Leigh Blackall <leighb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Leigh Blackall

unread,
May 8, 2010, 2:42:34 AM5/8/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Oh dear.. apology NOT accepted - because one is not needed! Enabling MP3 and FLV was the right decision. It seems to me that the dogged adherence to free and open file formats, when (let's be honest) free and open multi media formats leave us VERY short is just a rediculous reason to avoid using media now. The MP3 and FLV were enabled for a very good reason. To helped make those WE Help pages as good as they are! And without those Help pages, Wikieducator wouldn't be where it is today, and thousands of people would be clueless about MediaWiki.

I can't believe I let myself get dragged into this age old debate again. If only the rest of the Council was vocal on this obvious practical step forward! Keep MP3 and FLV in WE. Work to getting the free and open alternatives in there too (evidently though, the demand has been low over all these years, but still..), enable the embedding of 3rd party media now, get a working party onto finding the tool that will assist people creating those free and open format derivatives.

Alternatively, delay the vote long enough to see Leigh's resignation through.. then avoid using media further with a Working Party who will discover we should have done it years ago, and that we will have to support proprietary right along side free if we really care about inclusion and usability.

But best this conversation continue on the wiki, although I've obviously said my piece!

Valerie Taylor

unread,
May 8, 2010, 9:32:41 AM5/8/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Leigh

That is what some of us HAVE been trying to say! Some (even not free
and open) media is way better than NO media.

Getting to ubiquitous open media is an aspirational goal, and should
be included and worked towards. It is a really big job with lots of
road blocks. It is going to be a long up-hill effort from many
dedicated volunteers in the open community. I believe it will happen,
but not any time soon.

However, doing everything possible to support and encourage innovative
teaching and learning is WikiEducator's primary mission. Today, that
means facilitating the inclusion of the now-current media types.
Educators are doing amazing things with the media available. Let's
ensure that WE is the place where they explore these ideas and
showcase their work.

WE need to be open and inclusive! WE need to champion innovation now
and in the future.

..Valerie

Wayne Mackintosh

unread,
May 8, 2010, 7:52:12 PM5/8/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Hi Valerie,

You're absolutely right concerning Wikieducator's forward looking disposition and searching for innovation. It's one of our core values. Our real opportunity is to find creative ways to balance innovation with another core value -- freedom. Its not an easy balance to strike.

A request and a thought:

Please post copies of these messages in the wiki -- ideally we should keep all discussions in the wiki in the same place. I agree with your sentiments that "WE need to be open and inclusive" so lets keep this in mind as we move forward in striking the right balance.

It is far better to have 25 Council members talking on the same page than splitting the group into two factions. This is why its important for us to collectively work on the Straw Dog three alternative -- one page for us to find a solution which is open and inclusive for all users. Not easy -- but WE will get this right.

See you in the wiki.

Cheers
Wayne

Valerie Taylor

unread,
May 9, 2010, 9:31:52 AM5/9/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
I'm lost - this discussion in the wiki only works up to a point and we
are way past that.

This reminds me of the corporate America tactic known as the "hidden
agenda" - the meeting organizers have a specific outcome planned, but
the other attendees don't know that and probably wouldn't approve. So
the meeting proceeds with the organizers "directing" the conversation
until the attendees come to the "right answer" and the meeting minutes
"show" that it was group decision.

Just tell us what you want, and we can vote up or down.

..Valerie


On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Wayne Mackintosh
<mackinto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Valerie,
>
> You're absolutely right concerning Wikieducator's forward looking
> disposition and searching for innovation. It's one of our core values. Our
> real opportunity is to find creative ways to balance innovation with another
> core value -- freedom. Its not an easy balance to strike.
>
> A request and a thought:
>
> Please post copies of these messages in the wiki -- ideally we should keep
> all discussions in the wiki in the same place. I agree with your sentiments
> that "WE need to be open and inclusive" so lets keep this in mind as we move
> forward in striking the right balance.
>
> It is far better to have 25 Council members talking on the same page than
> splitting the group into two factions. This is why its important for us to
> collectively work on the Straw Dog three alternative -- one page for us to
> find a solution which is open and inclusive for all users. Not easy -- but
> WE will get this right.
>
> See you in the wiki.
>
> Cheers
> Wayne
>
>

Vincent Kizza

unread,
May 9, 2010, 4:15:07 PM5/9/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Hi Valerie,
              It is very hard for me to see how this kind of argument adds value. In fact, to me, it is  a double edged sword which could be applied to your argument as well. Besides the points Wayne espouses for keeping the disussions in one place, it saves many of us from having to read and respond to what we would otherwise not.
This cycle of uwarranted suspicion must end.
Vincent
             

--- On Sun, 9/5/10, Valerie Taylor <vta...@gmail.com> wrote:
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to wikieducator-community-council+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

Valerie Taylor

unread,
May 9, 2010, 6:00:56 PM5/9/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Thanks you Vincent for your thoughtful observation even if it wasn't in the wiki as you suggest is necessary for meaningful discussion. :o)

Please see
http://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Community_Council/Meetings/Third/Action_items

..Valerie

Wayne Mackintosh

unread,
May 9, 2010, 6:03:51 PM5/9/10
to wikieducator-co...@googlegroups.com
Hi Valerie,

I agree, the wiki discussions can get confusing when dealing with motions containing multiple facets, especially when conducted over multiple time zones over a short period of time. The technology is not ideal for complex and multi-faced debates -- but has the advantage of recording every edit with a date and time stamp which makes facilitates procedural rulings.

Yip, you're right the discussions can be confusing in the wiki and your point is well made given that you are a very experienced wiki user. I find the history tab very useful and adding the meeting pages to your watchlist helps me keep up to date with whats going on.  (For members who are not sure about these features, you can find out more with our tutorials -- http://tinyurl.com/2bh3m3m and http://tinyurl.com/2fmcj64 ).

From the Chair, speaking procedurally I shall deal with your email and references to hidden agendas plus a request for an indication of the vote as a point of information.

As you know, I cannot direct what "I" want (in a personal capacity) from the Chair and therefore I must refrain from responding to your request. Regarding meeting procedure, speaking from the Chair, I would like the meeting to consider all the possible amendments to the current motion on the table (by listing these on the same page) and to achieve reasonable consensus on the wording of the motion the meeting would like to vote on. Further details and clarifications below.  

For purposes of clarity (with apology for the long post):
  • The agenda is the one approved by majority vote of Council linked from the home paqe of our meeting (http://wikieducator.org/Community_Council/Meetings/Third/Approval_of_agenda).
  • Meeting procedure requires that the assembly debates the motion on the table to achieve the best consensus possible before calling the vote. As Chair my role is to ensure that the meeting focuses the debate on the issue tabled in one place in the wiki.  I recommend that our Council should should work together in deciding the best way forward by formulating / agreeing an amendment which may be tabled -- the detail of the amendment is determined by the meeting. There are any number motions the meeting can consider, eg amending the motion, withdrawing the motion, deferring the motion etc. Currently the motion is on hold -- and the meeting can consider any of these alternatives on the page for Straw Dog 3 ( http://tinyurl.com/25ea8kl). The purpose of Straw Dog 3 is for the meeting to list any and all of the motions it thinks appropriate (including Leigh's out-of-order proposal). Then to debate and achieve consensus on the best way forward. Once the meeting has achieved some form of consensus on the item they wish to table, I will remove the hold on the current motion. Speaking personally -- I would like the meeting to assume a healthy dose of good faith.
  • Point of clarity: Free cultural works licensing is a policy of WikiEducator. Freedom is a core value of the WIkiEducator project and the foundation on which this OER project is built. In the interests of transparency:  freedom and our commitment to free cultural works licensing is a defining feature of our project and we will NOT be voting on these core values. I accept that there are many educators and members of our community who choose to use non-free systems and we respect that. We are not here to mess people around -- the Internet is a big place and every user is free to host their OER projects on any site of their choice. (Try blogger, wikispaces, or IT4ALL etc - - to the best of my knowledge, these projects don't have issues with closed file formats). Projects are also free to install their own Mediawiki sites and are free to install any extensions that will accept closed file formats - - forking is not unusual in the open source world.) 
  • Users are free to make a copy of WikiEducator's content resources (its freely available in open file formats) and this is our  gift to society. -- They are free to copy our content, adapt and modify it for their own purposes, and if they like, they can convert the content to proprietary closed file formats. Everyone is free to do this as long as they attribute the creators. (Incidentally there is no requirement to ask WikiEducator's permission or any legal requirement to attribute WE in this regard). This is also a very transparent agenda since the project was founded -- to be clear, free cultural works licensing is not negotiable.

In terms of moving the meeting forward there are a few options for the meeting to consider (and I'm sure there are others I may not have thought about):

  • Consider a motion of confidence with regard to the Chair - - this will gauge opinion among Council on whether or not I'm conducting the meeting fairly in accordance with meeting procedure. This should address any concerns you or others may have about hidden agendas. At any point the meeting may request a point of information or a point of order as has been done during the course of the meeting.
  • Agree the amendment to the current motion on the table during this session.
  • Other options may include a deferral to the next meeting or referral to a Workgroup to consider the formulation of a motion to be considered by special resolution at any specified time or the next meeting. (Note that every member of Council, including WikiEducators are free to participate in a Workgroup.)
Where the meeting goes is the decision of the meeting.

I'll post copies of these emails in the wiki.
--
Wayne Mackintosh, Ph.D.
Director,
International Centre for Open Education,
Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand.
Board of Directors, OER Foundation.
Founder and Community Council Member, Wikieducator, www.wikieducator.org
Mobile +64 21 2436 380
User Page: http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg
Skype: WGMNZ1
Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages