How to use the Damaged condition from the adventurer toolkit?

[Ceodryn]

Alright, so because my group has a Dwarf Engineer, I want to make the character skill useful, and I have toyed with the idea of using the Damaged condition. I'd like to create some guidelines as to when the Damaged condition will be received, and I'd like feedback or ideas.

The Damaged condition says: Applies only to equipment. Weapons have their DR reduced by 2. Armor has its Defense rating reduced by 2. All other items add 2 misfortunes to any skill check in which they are used, until the damage is repaired.

First of all, who has ever heard of an armor with a Defense rating of 2? There are none... so I would assume this is a typo, and FFG is meaning 1. 

For weapons, I would give the Damaged condition on a Chaos Star that remains unused from the action card itself, or the player creativity. That means it would be a rare condition, but could happen if I feel like it in the story at this point of time.

For armors, I'd like more strict guidelines. My first thought was: If an armor receives 2+ criticals in an encounter, it would be Damaged. If it is Damaged twice, it is destroyed. However, this isn't right as a Full Plate should be able to hold better than a Chainmail. So, I thought: armors with a soak of 1-2 can receive the condition once before to be destroyed (i.e. they are destroyed when it receives it a second time), armors with a soak of 3-4 can receive it twice before to be destroyed, armors with a soak of 5+ can receive it three times (that's 6 criticals!!!).

Any feedback, or ideas to modify, or brand new suggestions on when to use the Damaged condition.

Cheers

Philippe

PS: I fully expect some howling by my players, but hey don't you want Yorri to enjoy using his hammer? ;)

[Josiah Leis]

Actually I am quite content to have the Engineering skill be useless :-P. If you are wanting to do that I suppose that all looks fair enough. Perhaps FFG meant Soak instead of Defence on the damaged card? Maybe have the soak be -1 per damaged condition, if it goes below 0 then the armour is destroyed? Just throwing out ideas.

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[Philippe Boujon]

No, I really want you to use that hammer ;). 

Ah true, I didn't even realize reading it that it didn't deal with soak. It makes no sense to reduce Defense since it is more about not seeing wher critical body parts are under all that armor. FFG probably meant soak indeed. In which case, receiving the Damaged condition is pretty harsh, and cannot be given more than once.

Doing -1 soak may be the easiest at first, but then you end up with a Full Plate no better than a leather armor, which even Damaged shouldnt be the case.

So, back to my drawing board:

I'd like an armor basically to only get the Damaged condition once, then the 2nd time it is destroyed. That way it's easier to track. 

Now, when to receive that Damaged condition should be different based on either the Defense or the Soak value of an armor... and that's where I am drawing a blank. 

[DevoutBadger]

What does Dwarf Engineering have to do with fixing weapons and armor? Also, it seems like it has clear use in getting Inventions working and maintained.

[Philippe Boujon]

I never mentionned the skill, just the career, which has access to both Dwarf Engineering and Tradecraft. Here is what the definition of Tradecraft vs. Dwarf Engineering is. However, both are clearly interlinked. Under Dwarf Engineering it mentions "repair", but under Tradecraft it mentions "engineering", and probably one of the spe could be "blacksmithing" or "weapon smithing".

However, I believe a Dwarf Engineer would be better at repairing thing that someone who just know the trade (level of skill being equal obviously), so while Tradecraft may be used to repair common item, I'll give fortune for havign Dwarf Engineering.

Tradecraft (Varies) Advanced skill. Unlike most skills that are fairly narrow in focus or apply to a specific set of related aptitudes, Tradecraft is a collection of skills related to professional dedication and learning of an applied trade. General training covers evaluation and understanding of the basics of trade as a business and component of Empire life. Specialisation introduces focus on one particular type of trade or livelihood. Tradecraft covers both hands-on, practical applications of trades and handicrafts and the commerce and business acumen necessary to earn a living. The characteristic used depends on the demands of the trade, as determined by the GM.

Specialisation options: smithing, carpentry, jewellery making, brew- ing, engineering, performance 

Dwarf Engineering (Int) Advanced skill. Dwarf Engineering encompasses the comprehension, design, modification, utilisation, and improvement of sophisticated dwarf technology and archi- tecture. Acquiring the skill is required to read plans (sometimes called “blueprints” due to a custom of writing the plans in blue
ink, and revisions and criticisms written in red ink). Use this skill to understand another engineer’s invention, to salvage or repair a piece of technology, to accurately target dwarf artillery, or to design your own inventions. The Tradecraft skill is generally used to build new items that have been designed through the use of Dwarf Engineering. 

On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:21 PM, DevoutBadger <ronin....@gmail.com> wrote:

What does Dwarf Engineering have to do with fixing weapons and armor? Also, it seems like it has clear use in getting Inventions working and maintained.

[DevoutBadger]

Fair Enough.

Though I think if you put this into place you should keep in mind you're probably going to be draining more resources from the group (money and/or time). 

Also:

How does being Superior impact becoming damaged/repaired?

Magic?

[Josiah Leis]

The other thing to consider is that there was no such thing as Dwarf Engineering at the time the description for Tradecraft was written. In hero's call it mentions that if you don't have Black Fire Pass Zhufbar Dwarves get Tradecraft for free instead of Dwarf Engineering.

Personally I am still confused as to what the heck Tradecraft is or does. Why exactly would I want it?

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[DevoutBadger]

The GM is just trying to screw you into needing more Advanced skills man, fight the machine! He isn't satisfied leeching dozens of advances from Hagen and Meinolf he wants to do it to you too! Don't let him!

(I think Tradecraft would make swords and armor and wagons and ladders and more boring stuff. Dwarf Engineering is really only for more complex stuff like steamtanks and gyrocopters and Astartes Power Armor. Blackpowder could go in both either. That would be my guess)

[Josiah Leis]

Hah! Forget being an Engineer. I'll just max Agility and Ballistic Skill and try to frustrate his carefully planned combat encounters :-P.

On Mar 6, 2013 3:36 PM, "DevoutBadger" <ronin....@gmail.com> wrote:

The GM is just trying to screw you into needing more Advanced skills man, fight the machine! He isn't satisfied leeching dozens of advances from Hagen and Meinolf he wants to do it to you too! Don't let him!

(I think Tradecraft would make swords and armor and wagons and ladders and more boring stuff. Dwarf Engineering is really only for more complex stuff like steamtanks and gyrocopters and Astartes Power Armor. Blackpowder could go in both either. That would be my guess)

[Philippe Boujon]

Well, as I said, I need ideas! 

Right now I am not satisfied with "when would armors be damaged". Superior is a good example as well. It shouldn't be damaged as easily. So, I need to think more about it, and/or I need suggestions/ideas :). Hey, for ex, it could be actually based on the severity lvl...

Ah, new idea: If your crits severity are greater than your armor soak + defense value, the armor receives the Damaged condition. So, for a leather armor, 3+ severity is enough to get the Damaged condition. For a plate armor, it would need to be 7+ severity. 

For a superior item, how about doubling the vale of soak + defense. That would actually make a superior item leather armor really attractive (5+ severity to be Damaged). Right now, why would someone want a superior armor? It doesn't provide any advantages!

As for Magic items, ditto, doubled. If it's magic and superior, tripled, so basically impossible to be damaged.

You're right though, it would be draining more resources (time being mostly irrelevant since it's a campaign), which is actually also on purpose Kevin. Keep in mind that the group resources won't be much drained by seeing Barber Surgeons or Physicians with you and Mienolf in the group. 

You think that right now the group is low on resources. True, because you're just starting, but really, I think if you're careful you'll come out of TGS with quite a bunch of silvers. I am not much concerned about your resources.

Although, if I am wrong, then I'll make sure the group has potential to get resources. It's a matter of balance. I don't want the group too poor, and I don't mind you to be rich, as long as creativity is applied to become rich, not just follow along. 

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[Philippe Boujon]

Tradecraft: Doing business, deals, repairing items, creating items.

Dwarf Engineering: Designing items, modifying inventions, supporting your tradecraft creating of items.

[Josiah Leis]

So is Tradecraft used for haggling instead of Guile or Charm?

[John Condon]

Day to day trade with customers and the like would still be guile or charm.
Business deals with suppliers, long term contracts, warehousing.. etc. I think that'd be covered by Tradecraft.

[DevoutBadger]

I guess I'm not opposed to stuff getting broken as much as "this sounds like a horrible pain in the ass level of complexity to be tracking rather than be playing the game", if that makes sense.

I feel I have enough to keep track of without worrying about my armors "hit points" as well as my wounds, criticals  favor, talents, recharge, actions and so on.

If I eat like 5 crits from one fight and survive somehow and you want to say my armor is damaged, great. But are we going to start tracking from session to session how many crits my armor has taken?

This becomes an issue. My mighty newbie leather armor already took a crit. So now we have to pay to repair it or I have to carry a spare lest I get crit again in the swamp and end up without armor. Or what happens in the first fight I take two small crits that doesn't really slow us down, but my armor is now damaged and useless. Isn't think game deadly enough without losing armor mid-fight or mid-adventure.

[Josiah Leis]

I am honestly wondering if the best system for this might just be GM fiat. If we take a brutal hit from a Wargor that has multiple successes and boons Philippe might just hand wave it and say "Your armor is now damaged, another hit like that and it will be ruined."

Similarly if in a long fight after sustaining multiple hits from all sides "Your armor is beat up and in need of repair (Damaged), further stress may ruin it."

This might seem arbitrary, but we'd just go more with Phillipe's "feeling" than anything else.

Crits are very common in this game Phillipe. Are you as a GM wanting this to be a constant thing (i.e. You got in battle and now need to heal up and repair your items), or a more special occurence (like the brutal hit described above). Crits are much more common than unspent Chaos Stars for weapons and if we base it off of them I think we will be repairing things a whole lot (which is fine if that is what you want).

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[Ron Heath]

Ok here is my take on damaged armour

1. Give armour a life span of so much time  say a year for arguments sake and any crits that are taken shortens that time by so many days

2. Then when an armour set has taken 50% of its age it halves its defence

3. When it has lost 100% of its age it looses its defence but I would say it would keep its soak

4. So when your in town you will have to get your armour repaired or risk it

Rob

Sent My iPhone

[David Russell II]

 My 2 cents...   Just looking at cost of item qualities, my opinion is this...  Poor quality = easily damageable,  normal quality= hard to damage but not impossible,  superior quality =should not be damageable at all  or if so very very hard to do so.

Paying 10x the amount for an item to have it get damaged or broken would make me think superior quality is not worth the risk otherwise.  Plus it would make superior actually desirable if it was near indestructible. 

Dave R--

Sent from my iPad mini

[Philippe Boujon]

All of those are good ideas! That's why I started this thread.

I agree with Kevin that I don't want it to become too much of a pain of tracking, but I do want some general guidelines. As Dave said too, using Damaged condition more often but making Superior and Magic items nearly indestructible would actually make Superior attractive.

Right now, the rules are basically GM decision. If I got a Sigmar comet or you get a Chaos Star, or I just decided the blow that dealt 20 dmg is Damaging your armor, I can use that to give the Damaged condition. That's fine, and that's how we are currently playing. I'll keep it that way until I have thought better. 

Another idea that is super simple: If you get down to 0 wounds and pass out after that, your armor is Damaged. You got beaten senseless and thus it would make sense your armor suffered. I use the same for NPC. If they get beaten senseless, their armor is usually dead except if it's superior armor. Superior and Magical armors wouldnt get damaged, except if I decide it.

Oh, and and all of this isnt for today! I just am getting ideas :)

[Philippe Boujon]

Sim? I dont know that word. What did you mean?

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Kilsern <kils...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would keep it as sim

[Kilsern]

I would keep it rare and simple. I agree that it shouldn't come into play unless the target has had the tar beaten out of them (0 Wounds, Critd either numerous or with high severity, or some special circumstance, for instance set on fire). In that case, I would deal out the Damaged Card and rule that it reduces the quality of the item. Superior becomes Standard, Standard becomes Poor, Poor is destroyed. I wouldn't enforce the debilitating effects of the card on Superior. I would rule that if it is not repaired before it receives a second damaged card, it still functions normally, but resale value is reduced to Standard. A second Damaged condition to the same armor without being repaired would invite the effects of the card to be enforced and a third would reduce it to Poor quality. A Fourth would destroy a Superior item. The math would work the same for a standard item, but I would apply the cards condition until it was repaired.

I'm making more use of the condition cards when Chaos Stars are rolled, as my players are tiring of constantly falling prone. So now I inflict a suitable condition card with a Brief effect, but in most cases I make the duration "until the end of your next round" vs the standard Brief CC being introduced with three markers, effectively making their effects three round duration.

I'm also

[Kilsern]

Sorry, fat fingered the post button.

I'm also introducing Paizo's Plot Twist Cards to resolve Comets and Stars and possibly their Critical Fumbles deck as well. I'm still working the bugs out of it, as they are a product for Pathfinder, but most of the effects can easily be converted on the fly (for instance a result of 20 could be interpreted as +1 Critical). I think they work well for my face to face games, but they would need some serious tweaking for a VTT game.

[Philippe Boujon]

Well, if you happen to work them out in a VTT context, let me know. If you get basically a list of them with WFRP3 effects, they could actually be coded, I think, as condition cards or as a table.

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Kilsern <kils...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry, fat fingered the post button.

I'm also introducing Paizo's Plot Twist Cards to resolve Comets and Stars and possibly their Critical Fumbles deck as well.  I'm still working the bugs out of it, as they are a product for Pathfinder, but most of the effects can easily be converted on the fly (for instance a result of 20 could be interpreted as +1 Critical). I think they work well for my face to face games, but they would need some serious tweaking for a VTT game.

[Rob Heath]

found this , and looks entertaining

http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/SwashCards.pdf

Rob

[Philippe Boujon]

I have the feel that I am going to settle on:

- If you're down to 0 wounds AND you have received at least 2 criticals, your armor gets the Damaged condition. The Damaged condition then apply.

- If your armor is a Superior item, then it is downgraded to being a Normal item, but the Damaged condition doesn't apply (it's there as tracking, but that's all)

- If your armor is Magical, it cannot be Damaged except rare events that are at GM discretion.

That should make the Damaged condition actually rather rare, but still provide me guidelines. Obviously, it could still be awarded at the discretion of theGM any other time, but rarely.