Blackfire Pass question

[Steve of the Red Fez]

Hey, folks. I had a question about Blackfire Pass since I do not own the product. Specifically, how do runes work?

Let me back up. I am beginning to run a WFRP3E game in my local store. I've come up with the demo characters (which I posted here), but I also came up with rules for players who wish to join my game. The rules are here.

The short-end of it is this: players will get special in-game benefits for buying the products. This is meant to encourage sales of the game and, in turn, to expand the player base. The reason I want to know about runes is because, although I don't own the product (hence my misgivings), I made the reward for buying Blackfire pass as follows:

      SUMMARY OF SWAG

          • When creating a dwarf character, you may simply choose any career that is exclusive for dwarves
          • When creating a dwarf character, you may begin the game with an heirloom rune weapon or armor

The first line is not a big deal obviously. The second line is what i'm worried about. To clarify, I am NOT afraid of extra power. In this system there are lots of equalizers. What I am afraid of is 1) if I am giving away something that CANNOT be possessed by a character (i.e. it goes totally against the rules), or 2) if this is an outright broken mechanic. Oh, and 3) is there anything about "heirloom" items in the game? I don't think so. I put it in for a little bit of character, but I'd hate to get bit by that word.

Now I've looked at the Fantasy Grounds WFRP3E ruleset and I can see the rune cards there. I don't know what the mechanics are for using them, but am I to understand that a character can get a weapon or armor that has a rune carved on it (i.e. a rune card)? Do they have the choice of ANY of those runes? Are there levels to them or grades? Any restrictions? Any pitfalls I should know about? Some runes definitely seem more powerful than others.

Any info you can give me about this would be immensely helpful. Also, any thoughts you have about my reward system would be appreciated. If you guys have better reward ideas then let me know.

P.S. If a player buys EVERYTHING for this game, they still can't get out of their first career. This is intentional. The highest they should be able to get it 8 advances and lots of little side bonuses if I recall correctly.

Thanks, guys. You're all always ready to help out when I need it most!

Sincerely,

     --Steve--

[Arnaud van der Gaarden]

Hi, I am playing a dwarfen runesmith.myself and as a suggestion to SWAG point 2 : don't give weapons or armor, but instead give them the Ancestor Badge item card. It works as a talisman on which you can attach a rune. (for me) tomorrow I'll look up some more rules and info for you.

Cheers,
Arnaud
(aka 'Lokgrund Branazal, Runesmith of the mighty Karak Azul')

Op 10 mrt. 2013 01:28 schreef "Steve of the Red Fez" <sjpau...@gmail.com> het volgende:

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[Philippe Boujon]

There are 3 rules to Runes:

- The Rule of 3: No item can bear more than 3 runes. Apprentice tunesmiths can only strike 1 rune. Experienced tunesmiths can strike 2. Master runesmiths (extremely rare) can strike 3.

- The Rule of Form: A rune trait defines where the rune can be striken.

- The Rule of Pride: A combination of rune can be made once by a runesmith. Each rune is unique. Rune can only be applied to superior items. 

The only exception to the Rule of Pride is the rune of stone. It can be applied to as many items as needed. It is basically the rune that apprentice runesmiths use to practice. So there are many runic items with that rune. Those items must still be superior.

That's pretty much it. There are Master runes but they are not included in BFP supplement. Yepesnopes however created a fan supplement. Master runes are extremely rare. BFP runes can be found on any item baring the rules above.

So, while it may be weird to end up with a party of Dwarf all having runic items... it can be explained with fluff, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. Keep in mind however that you are indeed giving everyone an item that is probably worth more than 5g, that is magical, thus nearly indestructible, and that from there, it's hard for them to hope for more. Meaning the expectation has already been raised very high.

You don't have to have an heirloom item being runic. It could be a superior item. After all, superior items in WFRP3 are somewhat the magical items of D&D.


As far as feedback on other stuff:

- If I was doing what you were doing (and I totally applaud you for it), I would focus more on players buying the Player's Guide than the Player's Vault. Why? Because with the guide they actually buy a complete playable system (Lite, ok but still) that they can then disperse to other players. The Player Vault is useless but when playing at your game table, and it doesn't even have any fluff in it, so it would teach them anything about the WFRP world.

- Because the Player's Guide include the Player's Vault item, those who would have it and SIgn of Faith or Winds of Magic, could play a Divine or Arcane magic. So again, the Player's Guide is a better choice for the money.

- Ok, I see you are on the side of the Ironbreaker is broken... yet you plan to give runic items? It is a very iconic career, and players may feel cheated that they can take a Wardancer but not an Ironbreaker? I don't think personally the Ironbreaker is broken. It is made to do what it is made to do, and it sucks at other things. It is a very specialized career.

- Omens of War: Wow, pair of pistol or warhorse? These are 10g items. You may want to decrease than to a pistol or a trusty horse. 

So, in summary, I would be you, I would swap the Player's Guide and the Vault, and I would decrease the stuff given with Omens of War. 

Again, I very much applaud you for doing what you are doing! Please let us know whether you generated any sales of WFRP3 components at your store. I am really curious how it goes.

Cheers

Philippe

[Steve of the Red Fez]

Excellent info so far. Thanks and keep it coming!

So, this Talisman... does it have any special rules or is it effectively the same as putting a rune on armor or weapons? What's the difference?

As for the other rune stuff: so they can choose any rune from the list I see in fantasy grounds? Also, by saying "heirloom item" I figured I would be giving them a superior item just so things made sense (I didn't know runes HAD to be on superior items). Is there such a thing as an "heirloom item" that I might come in conflict with rules-wise?

As to the money issue, I don't fret over that. Money is fairly liquid in my games, but availability of items is another issue. For example, a pair of pistols seems pretty awesome, but pistols simply aren't that good (rules-wise). I find players get annoyed having to pay for the "coolness factor" of pistols only to learn that it doesn't really translate to being very awesome. Giving them away for free to someone who actually bought a $50 boxed set is a nice reward that has no real affect on the balance of the game. If they don't want pistols, they can then take a superior weapon. Again, the extra fortune has very little affect upon the game in the long run but the players love it. And the horse? Unless the issue is purely about money, no one is really breaking the game with a warhorse since almost everything tends to happen indoors.

By the way, the "Trusty Horse" was my first choice but it says it is exclusive to the Outrider. I thought the player would feel cheated if they got "someone else's" stuff. Then again, maybe it'd be fine. Like I said, it was my first choice. Sometimes you've got to go with your first choice because it's the right choice. I might change this.

I suppose my entire philosophy about gaming is about empowering the players to feel like they're living up to what they wish there character could be. A good sample of this is in character generation. When making a new character I NEVER have players simply "acquire" an advanced skill. They always get it trained. After character generation is over it's a different story, but never DURING character generation.

The reason for this is as follows: if I'm making a burgher and saw it gave me the Education and Tradecraft skills I would think, "yes, that makes sense". After all, I should be able to read and write very well and i should certainly be skilled in the trade on which I base my living. When I learned this was NOT the case and that he was not skilled at these things but was merely FAMILIAR (i.e. aquired but not trained) with them I felt like the system had really let me down. The character was incapable of fulfilling the promise of that career.

When I thought about it I realized that FFG made the same mistake that most RPG writers do. They looked at these skills with an eye towards reality, not playability. The fact of the matter is that no one is going to hurt the fabric of your game with his awesome Tradecraft skill. No one is ever going to say, "Come on, Johann! Show these chumps how the Brash Young Fools handle an education-related problem!" Meanwhile, training in the "basic" Weapon Skill will have a major impact upon vast sections of potential gameplay yet has little limitations. This is fine, because it's fun. Why do we have to cut down on the fun of these "advanced" skills?

As a result, during character generation you TRAIN all skills you choose to take. During actual game play I can see some sense in doing the "acquired-but-not-trained" idea. Even then I'm not too keen on it, but at least I get it.

Anyway, that might give you some sense of where I'm coming from.

To the other points...

I completely agree with you about the Player's Guide. The reason I set it up the way I did is because I'm playing with components. If they don't buy the vault they effectively can't play. The fact is, if I loan out my cards they'll NEVER buy the vault. Even if they have the guide they still can't play since they lack the components. Meanwhile, I can always teach them the rules.

My hope is they'll want to know more once they're into the game (and they'll want the 2 advances for buying the book) so they'll end up buying the book soon afterwards. Besides, I think the vault makes an awesome first impression. Talk about getting your money's worth!

Finally, ive never played with the Ironbreaker and just made that decision based on the massive controversy I had read. Logically, it seems odd to start the game with the rarest armour in the world. It'd be like playing a brand new scout marine in Warhammer 40,000 and getting Terminator armor. What exists to balance this character? Is he as much of a nightmare as people say? Wouldn't every dwarf fighter want to take this guy as a default? What is his downside?

Anyway, I loved reading these points you guys made. Give me more feedback! It'll really help me out!

[DevoutBadger]

You're missing that Runes can only be put on Superior items. So the item is already worth 10x value (and gives a fortune die), before any Rune effect. So a great hammer with a Rune would be worth at LEAST 20g, probably much more, like 50g. A hand weapon starts at 2.5g and probably more like 13g.

[DevoutBadger]

Runes come in 3 flavors: Weapon, Armor or Talisman. Each is a specific category.

Ironbreakers are strong, but their disadvantage is that their ability is an item. So they can't always wear it and so on.

[Philippe Boujon]

Alright, you have some very good point Steve. It's your WFRP world after all :). I am more of the side that WFRP characters needs to start low before to rise up.

Regarding your question: Talisman are simply an item, such as a weapon, or armor, that can receive a rune. No difference. Yes, they can choose any rune from the list. There are no such thing as an heirloom item, the closest would be the Ancestor Badge, which is a talisman.

Regarding black powder weapons, and just to give you some ideas, while they are not overly powerful (thanks god!), they do represent status in the WFRP world. Someone with a pistol means he/she is wealthy enough to afford it. Someone with two is extremely wealthy, and may be perceived as silver or even gold tier.

So, my point being that if a character acquire a handgun or pistol, you may actually want to raise their social tier among the populace. That will already give them some benefits.

Then, blackpowder weapons are mostly unknown in country side. In a village, discharging them will create as much fear as a wizard spell. Actually probably more, because at least there are rumors about wizards. Ditto against opponents such as beast men, greenskins, etc... If it is reasonable to think they have never encountered one, a fear 1 check or more may be in order. 

Finally, you could always raise the pierce value of a blackpowder weapon if you feel they are underpowered. 

As for the gromril armor, as Kevin pointed out, it's just an item. I am of the camp that it can be stealed, even damaged or broken - very rare but possible - whatever FFG may say... the Ironbreaker must take care of it (it's expensive to do so). It is also a status symbol, so the Ironbreaker must abide by that status, especially among dwarves. It will be the envy of bandits, greenskins, etc... meaning more random encounters and danger. 

From a gameplay standpoint, an Ironbreaker is a defensive career. They are good at attacking, but their strength is really in defending. Yes, you problably will rarely down an Ironbreaker, nor even give him any criticals. Plus, since he is a dwarf, he can better resist diseases, and his corruption threshold is very high. However, the ironbreaker is going to have to invest heavily in ST, TO and WP. Socially, he is inapt. And, put him against a horde of snotlings or zombies, he will still suffer (always 1 wound per hit!). Basically, it is no more a powerful career than a war dancer or a way watcher.

Cheers

Philippe

[Steve of the Red Fez]

Excellent points about the social status of pistols. I might inform the player their character needs to go for certain wealth levels to get the items. Maybe 1 or 2 points in wealth to get the superior weapon, and 3 or 4 points for pistols.

The Gromril armor is a tricky one. The points you make are good, but I am also aware that people must have some basis for their complaints. If I put it in my game then I'm stuck with it and have to deal with the headache. I figure there are plenty of careers in the game. I'll just let it count as an intermediate or advanced career. At least then the armour will have been earned.

As for the rune item, I'm a little disappointed they basically made runes work like a video game--you've got three "slots" in which to place a rune (weapon, armor, talisman) but I guess it makes it simple. How is the balance on the runes? Are there any that are unbalancing in your opinion?

[Philippe Boujon]

Hmmm, your char doesn't have 3 slots. Each item has 3 slots. A talisman can also be anything really, as long as its superior. Although, dwarfs probably won't put any runes on organic matters... Elves however...

None of the runes in BFP are overpowered because all are basic runes.

Sent from my iPhone

[Steve of the Red Fez]

So I'm safe as far as potential unbalancing effects on the game?

By the way, I remember way back in first edition when there were bane weapons (man bane, orc bane, dwarf bane, etc) that just killed any member of a species outright. Wasn't that awesome? I never saw them in play, but I loved that they were out there.

[DevoutBadger]

Define "unbalancing". Someone with a rune weapon is better off than someone with a superior weapon who is better off than someone with a normal weapon.

[Steve of the Red Fez]

By "unbalancing" I mean will this create a problem in my game. Will encounters become a joke unless I amp up the difficulty to a severe degree and thereby alienate the other players? Will a rune weapon make others feel like they are useless by comparison?

[Philippe Boujon]

Well, Steve, if one player has high-end blackpowder weapons (thus able to use some special actions that fire twice in a round), one has a warhorse (thus enabling mounted combat with a powerful beast), and most have superior weapons, a runic weapon doesn't in-balance much more honestly. I think that's what Kevin was confused about.

You will indeed need to amp-up the difficulty of all encounters with such a group, but they will be more heroic. Basically, this isn't a group of start-up characters, it is a group of heroes(albeit still rank 1), with mighty weapons, thus NPCs either need to be numerous or more powerful.

However, in the light of what you are trying to accomplish (i.e. sell WFRP3 and its system) giving them heroic characters makes totally sense. It's the pathfinder model after all.

So, don't worry too much about runic weapons.

Cheers

Philippe

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Steve of the Red Fez <sjpau...@gmail.com> wrote:

By "unbalancing" I mean will this create a problem in my game. Will encounters become a joke unless I amp up the difficulty to a severe degree and thereby alienate the other players? Will a rune weapon make others feel like they are useless by comparison?

[Steve of the Red Fez]

Great, thanks. I'll keep everyone posted on how this all works out. It's an experiment after all, but one that I hope goes well.