Anyone who votes for republicans and democrats in the US elections are stupid.
LoreAlmighty
Yaoi Huntress Earth
Obama and Kucinich on their side.
LoreAlmighty
what's the deal?
The Rat
America needs is a strong, viable third party, something to keep the
others honest. I don't really care what political stripe it is, but a
left-leaning one would be best, and it doesn't need to be a serious
threat to take power, it just needs to have enough support that it
could shift the balance, and make the two big boys realise that they
have a lot more people to please. Right now the Democrats and
Republicans don't care about pleasing each others supporters so much
just hoping that there are fewer of them.
Anyone who thinks that The New Democratic Party has had little
influence on Canadian politics needs to have their brain fixed. They
have held power in some provinces, have never come close federally, but
they are always a force to be reckoned with by each party that does
hold the reins.
I also think that there is another fundamental difference that makes
the Canadian system waaaaaaaay better - our Prime Minister does not win
an election and then hole himself up in an office for the next 4 years.
He has to attend Parliament each day, where he personally has to face
the opposition and defend the Government's policies. A backbencher with
just a few minute's experience under his belt can stand in the House
and ask the PM pointed questions, which must be replied to immediately.
Can anyone imagine Dubya undergoing that sort of grilling? Daily?!
Every few minutes?!?!?! He would fall apart like a cheap watch, and I
would pay good money to see it! I think perhaps the last President who
might have handled himself well in such situation would have been JFK,
or possibly Clinton.
Yaoi Huntress Earth
AntiMarxistFanboy
though i'm a huge fan of George W. Bush) I think we should go for the
Nazi Green Party, The american nazi party, or the KKK knights party. Or
an alliance of all three.
Psycho Dave
Yeah, membership in those parties practically guarantees one a win in
election season. Well... It did until around 1922.
Psycho Dave
LoreAlmighty wrote:
> Yeah, there is no difference between the parties or it's members, so
> what's the deal?
There is a HUGE difference between the two parties, and the differences
are so profound that making such as statement that "There is no
difference between them" is really just plain dumb.
The Republican party is run by the EXTREME far right, as opposed to the
moderates who used to run it. These extremists are religious and
economic fascists who don't care about the constitution at all, and who
care for profit over the protection of your rights. They are the
architects of the increasingly closed, secretive, and "loyalty to the
president at all costs" goverment that the Bush administration has
created. Republicans try to court the Jewish and Black votes, but
virtually never let blacks or Jews get anywhere in their party. Case
and point -- there are only a few black republicans, none of whom are
elected officials, and only 2 Jewish senators who are republicans. The
Republican party represents the part of America, South of the
mason-dixon line, who wish the South won the civil war, and who are
antisemitic and racist, as well as sexist.
The Democrats are not, and never have been run by the extreme far left,
and in that sense, are not the same. The Democrats are run by
moderates, many of whom are former republicans that jumped ship in
disgust over the direction of the republican party. The Democrats
actually care about the constitution, and have always voted against
measures that would infringe upon the bill of rights. they represent
the more educated parts of America, and unlike Republicans, are not
always trying to destroy the public school system. The Democrats are
for open government -- they are the ones who came up with the Freedom
of Information Act, which gives Americans the right to see classified
documents. Unlike the republicans, the Democrats are all about creating
a just and equitable society, free of racism and sexism. the vast
majority of Jewish and Black politicians in the country are in the
democratic party, as well as Latinos.
The Republican party is a party that bases many of it's core values in
mythology. Some of the myths that republicans live by are:
(1) Democrats are big spenders, and always raise taxes, making
everyone's life more difficult. [The reality is that republicans are
big spenders, out-spending democratic administrations by a factor of 10
to 1, on average. They raise taxes, and always create loopholes for
their rich friends and corporations, making the little guy pay it all.
Case and point, Reagan ran for president promising to eliminate the
Carter 1 trillion dollar deficit. He got elected and left office with a
3 trillion dollar deficit. George H.W. Bush said No New Taxes, then
promptly raised them several times. Clinton eliminated the deficit,
creating a surplus, and streamlined the budget, eliminating billions in
wasteful spending. George W. Bush is expected to leave office with an 8
trillion dollar deficit, and the largest budget in history. ]
(2) Immigrants and minorities are lazy people who come to steal your
jobs, and get on welfare to get free income without contributing back
into society. [The reality is that most immigrants come here, get
honest work for crappy wages, work harder than native-born citizens,
and eventually become citizens themselves through hard work]
(3) Public schools are shitty, and need to be privatized, because
everyone knows that private schools do a better job at educating kids.
[The reality is that Private schools do no better than public schools.
The Bush administration's own people conducted a study that concluded
this, and they tried to hide it from the public! Private schools are
more expensive. Public schools give just as good an education as
private schools, and since their budgets have been cut time and time
again by republicans, they have been doing as good as private schools
with less and less money over the last 30 years].
(4) The welfare system sucks up too much tax dollars, and there are
"welfare queens" who get multiple welfare accounts, and live like rich
people off of taxpayers dollars! [The Reality is that the "welfare
queen" concept has never existed in Reality. It was used in a speech by
Reagan, and people have believed it ever since. The Welfare system
costs LESS than the Federal Highway system to operate, and is barely 1%
of the entire federal budget. The Biggest money -waster in the federal
budget is the military budget, which is nearly half of the budget. A
large part of that is called "the black budget", which is secret
military spending on projects that nobody is accountable for. Many
military contractors regularly rip off the government, costing us even
more tax money, and they don't get punished for it]
(5) Gay people are trying to have sex with your kids, and make everyone
gay. [yeah, sure]
Now I know someone cam possibly come up with similar myths that the
democratic party bases it's values on, but I'm also willing to bet that
if accurate, these myths will not be as ridiculously the opposite of
what reality is, and may actually reflect a spirit of generosity,
rather than the fear-mongering hateful message of republicans.
If you think that republicans are no different democrats, then you have
to conclude that racist, anti-semitic, xenophobic, Jesus freaks are no
different than college-educated, racially-diverse, jew-friendly,
internationalist, people who are tolerant of other people's religions.
Really.
Dictators. Nazis. Klansmen, anti-semites, Jesus freaks, Survivalists,
and Gun nuts...Those are the people in the republican party.
LoreAlmighty
the two parties are polarized that the line has been blurred. Anyone
who votes for any of the parties is a moron, plain and simple, because
you're feeding a corrupt, two-party system. Many people I talk to in
America who voted don't like the current political system in America or
the two-party system, but instead of getting people to support a partry
THEY LIKE, they uh, vote for democrats. Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton,
Bush 2 may not be the same but they are no saints and were no good
politicans, and you supported any of them, you were a moron, plain and
simple.
LoreAlmighty
have the option to vote for a third party. The only reason why third
parties don't win in Ameirca, is 'cause people DO NOT VOTE FOR THEM IN
AMERICA! If people actually got off their asses and educated people in
America about politics and the political spectrum, the republicans and
democrats would drop like a rock.
LoreAlmighty
like with a lot of democrats and republicans, is the war issue.
Although many democrats supported the war at first, they now don't, and
that's really what is now making them different. As if ONE issue in
politics is supposed to make a party better and different? If one
only cares about the war issue, then they really are a moron. Very few
democrats ever push for Universal Healthcare, barely try to destroy
religion in government or the public schools, and do a bad job
defending the constititution. Kerry, Bush, Gore, Clinton, Reagan, get
them away from me, they came from a halloween party!
Psycho Dave
Actually, the reason that people tend not to vote for the 3rd party
candidates is that most of them tend to be fruitcakes, or only have one
issue to bring forward.
Case and point -- Ralph Nader. He only seems to have one issue to go
by, and his party is a retard fruitcake Green Party that doesn't seem
to have any leadership that can press their points effectively. it has
nothing to do with money and being drowned out by the other two
parties. It has everything to do with retard spokespersons.
Case and Point -- Ross Perot. What a fucking retard! (yeah I know he's
old history)
Case and Point -- The Green Rainbow Party. We had a gubernatorial
candidate in Massachusetts, and the Green Rainbow candidate was so
earthy-crunchy, new-agey, and just plain retarded that nobody could
figure out what she was offering. Even in the debate (all candidates
got to debate together) she couldn't make any points at all.
Don't blame the reps and the dems for the lack of independant
candidates getting elected. It is the independant candidates themselves
who are to blame, or their parties.
Hey, A fucking former Pro Wrestler, Jesse Ventura, got elected.
Connecticutt elected an independant to replace that fucking Lieberman.
Vermont has a long history of electing Independants.
The vast majority of indies simply don't do a good job of campaigning.
LoreAlmighty
candidates is that most of them tend to be fruitcakes, or only have one
issue to bring forward. "
Okay, I can admit when I'm wrong on something, but I would like to know
if there is any creditable third party in the US? The NDP is the major
third party in Canada, and while no PM has yet to be a NDP, it has
major power in many provinces. Is there not a similar party in the US
someone like me could lean to?
"Case and point -- Ralph Nader. He only seems to have one issue to go
by, and his party is a retard fruitcake Green Party that doesn't seem
to have any leadership that can press their points effectively. it has
nothing to do with money and being drowned out by the other two
parties. It has everything to do with retard spokespersons. "
Yeah, Nader was a fool. But tell me more about the green party. I
don't really know anything about them.
"Case and Point -- Ross Perot. What a fucking retard! (yeah I know he's
old history) "
Tell me more about him too. All I know about Ross Perot was that
Maddox voted for him once.
"Don't blame the reps and the dems for the lack of independant
candidates getting elected. It is the independant candidates themselves
who are to blame, or their parties. "
Well what about the Libertarian and Independant parties in the US? How
come no one leans to them?
Psycho Dave
LoreAlmighty wrote:
> Maybe I should have rephrased the statement. I really should have said
> the two parties are polarized that the line has been blurred.
Hardly. The Democrats actually are moderates who trully represent the
diversity of the country. The Republicans are extremists who represent
19th century White neanderthals.
> Anyone
> who votes for any of the parties is a moron, plain and simple, because
> you're feeding a corrupt, two-party system.
Never vote just for a party -- always know the individuals you vote
for... Course that's hard when you have better things to do than
research them all.
> Many people I talk to in
> America who voted don't like the current political system in America or
> the two-party system, but instead of getting people to support a partry
> THEY LIKE, they uh, vote for democrats.
We do not have a two-party system. We have a media that distorts
reality, and presents it as a two party system. Media often interview
only republicans or democrats, and regularly ignore independants. Even
if an independant is a fruitcake, I think the media should be compelled
by law to let them be present for all debates and discussions of
issues.
> Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton,
> Bush 2 may not be the same but they are no saints and were no good
> politicans, and you supported any of them, you were a moron, plain and
> simple.
Carter and Clinton were fucking saints compared to Reagan and the Bush
twits. Carter and Clinton worked with the international community to
resolve issues, and trully believed in making the govenrment work for
the people. Reagan and the Bushes were happy to just bomb international
problems into submission, and made the govenrment secretive and
spy-crazy.
Carter was a true peacemaker, and a world-class leader. Clinton
seriously streamlined the budget and eliminated waste. Putting them
into the same boat as Reagan and the Bushes is just plain dumb.
LoreAlmighty
libertarian propaganda that lead me to hate Michael Moore, but still, I
would like you to elaborate more on the US political system.
The Rat
Psycho Dave wrote:
> The Republicans are extremists who represent
> 19th century White neanderthals.
The sad thing about that is that in the real 19th century they were
much more progressive. The two principal founders of the party, Abraham
Lincoln and Robert Ingersoll, believed in civil liberties, they were
pro-labour, and they were for the absolute separation of church and
state. Ingersoll was so much against religion that he refused a request
to run for governor of Illinois when the party asked him to remain
silent about his his anti-church views.
Ingersoll quote "Good-by, gentlemen! I am not asking to be Governor of
Illinois ... I have in my composition that which I have declared to the
world as my views upon religion. My position I would not, under any
circumstances, not even for my life, seem to renounce. I would rather
refuse to be President of the United States than to do so. My religious
belief is my own. It belongs to me, not to the State of Illinois. I
would not smother one sentiment of my heart to be the Emperor of the
round world."
Lincoln quote "My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian
scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become
clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for
thinking I shall ever change them."
The reason I find the current Republican party so repugnant is because
of the ways they have betrayed their founders and allowed themselves to
be usurped, co-opted, and ass-fucked by big business and the religous
fundie fuckwads.
And the fact that every time he opens his yap dubya makes Dan Quayle
look like a statesman.
Psycho Dave
Sorry to hear that.
My opinion of Libertarians is that they are nothing more than economic
conservatives (Privatize all government services, end public schools,
screw the poor) who are simply not religious fuck-tards. They can be
anywhere from mainstream christian to atheist, but the only thing they
have in connom is tha tthey do not want to pay any taxes for anything,
and they would rather have the government just cater to business.
A typical libertarian is someone who doesn't care about religious or
moral issues, but who wants to eliminate public schools, because
education is "not a right under the constitution", and who wants to
eliminate all government regulations on business, because "businesses
can just police themselves"
In other words, they are amoral sociopaths who don't give a fuck about
humanity, or about using government to build a fair, just, equitable
society that serves all the people equally.
I bought into the whole libertarian thing a while back, but when it
came down to regulations, I realized they had a serious disconnect.
Most of the libertarian literature I've seen, and most of the
libertarians I've talked to believe in "business self-regulation" like
a religion. They seem to think that businesses always have the best
interests of the people in mind, and that we don't need minimum wages,
zoning regulations, safety regulations, or any regulations, because
"the market must be free to go in whatever direction it goes in", "let
workers decide which businesses have the best policies by not working
for bad companies", and "taxes only inhibit growth and prosperity".
It's all total bullshit. Everyone knows that self regulation is
bullshit -- it ALWAYS has resulted in corporate aliances that
deliberately screw customers. Just look how the self-regulation of the
stock brokers and auditors, and energy companies ended up -- MCI, Tyco,
Enron, Anderson-Little, and others. If a company has an opportunity to
get away with screwing it's customers without accountability, THEY
WILL. If a company is allowed to operate a facility with dangerous
practices that endanger workers or the surrounding community, IT WILL.
Regulations were invented for very good reasons -- to protect workers,
to protect communities, and to make people and companies accounatable
when things go horribly wrong. Libertarians want us to forget our past
run-ins with monopolies and industry self-regulation.
BUt please, if you want me to elaborate more on American politics, pick
a topic. There's a lot of ground to cover on any given topic.
LoreAlmighty
have more than two creditable parties.
TiradeFaction
LoreAlmighty wrote:
> Well, mainly on the US third parties. Europe and Canada for example
> have more than two creditable parties.
Didn't Dave already talk about them on this topic? No offense Lore, but
maybe you should be more specific. Like "Tell me more about Ross Perot"
Or "Tell me more about the american communist party" etc.
LoreAlmighty
they are fruity.
TiradeFaction
LoreAlmighty
candidates. I'm still not convinced there's not a legitimate third
party in the U.S people could lean too....