Re: Most requested stuff on Google Moderator
John Huss
Le 2012-03-28 à 08:44, Q a écrit :
Did the community grow by simply supporting each other (and I won't say that people support each other, and I'm not aware of any community where everyone give and take)? How a shrinking community is going to get better? Especially after that most experts left it or can't contribute? Did we have new leaders who risen up in the last two years? Do we have new sponsors like mDimension or Apple were? How can we find sponsors when most of the community are small (one or two guys) shops?
>
> On 28/03/2012, at 9:38 AM, Pascal Robert wrote:
>
>>
>> Le 2012-03-27 à 19:30, Mike Schrag a écrit :
>>
>>>>>> "I think we should use the funds to pay people to fix issues that the majority of users are having. The issues will be voted by the community and the most voted issues will become the highest priorities."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is not how Wonder was created and now how I expect that it will continue. If you have a problem, learn how to fix it. Then put it in Wonder.
>>>>
>>>> In the past, we had Apple sponsorship and most of the big additions to Wonder between 2007 and 2010 came from Apple… We don't have that sponsorship anymore, and personally I don't think we will survive if we don't pay people for major stuff. I don't think we will survive anyway, but that's another story…
>>> Apple funded a VERY small percentage of the contributions to Wonder. Almost all of the contributions I made came from mDimension donating their time, bandwidth, and hardware for the good of the community. Frankly, if Apple hadn't funded the things they did, I would have done them anyway, because I just enjoyed making things.
>>>
>>> This approach of paying for fixes seems like you're just going to end up with a collection of bounty hunters instead of a community. On top of that, there's no way you're going to be able to afford to pay the market cost for this work. mDimension easily donated a couple hundred thousand dollars of time if you applied their real hourly rate to the work. So on top of encouraging people to only give if they get paid, they're going to be paid crap, so why would anyone even bother?
>>>
>>> I really don't think things are stagnant because of the lack of money. They're stagnant because the remaining people in the community don't care enough to contribute. I don't buy any of the "I don't know how to do X" or "I don't have time to do X." You have to want it. I didn't know how to write nearly any of what was in WOLips before I started working on WOLips, and likewise with Wonder. I learned WebObjects working on Wonder. I'm would wager that everyone who worked on Wonder was in the same category. Contribution is also positive reinforcement. The coolest times in Wonder for me were always when one person contributing got someone else energized to contribute and amazing things were made.
>>>
>>> The real question is: Who is currently NOT contributing because they're just waiting for a payday to do so? If you're perfectly happy enjoying the fruits of the community while not giving back to the community, look in the mirror for the reason it's dying. Either give a shit, or don't be sad that it dies.
>>
>
> I agree with mike's statement, and can relate. I have worked on many different parts of WOLips, Wonder and numerous other projects, and more often than not I had no idea where to start, all I knew was what I wanted to achieve. You just have to know what you want to do, and don't give up until you succeed or know that it can't be done. Some of the code I have contributed took me over a year to get right (arguably some of it still isn't), and there are other things I have been working on sporadically (because it's not something I need yet) for close to 4 years now that could be great, or may never be finished, I still don't know which. I won't even mention the number of experiments I have abandoned because they couldn't be made to work the way I had hoped. Nobody could justify paying for that time, particularly to someone who had no idea how to do it in the first place, and with possibly nothing to show for it at the end.
>
> For me it has never been about getting payment, recognition, or privilege. The sole reason I have spent thousands of hours of my own time working on code for the sole purpose of giving it away is one of moral duty and respect for the people who did it before me and still do it today. They have spent innumerable hours they could have used to do paid work, donated resources and sacrificed time with their families and friends, so that we could benefit from their generosity. People like David Terán who gave more of his life to this community than you would think possible. I do it, because they did it before me, it's my payment for using their work.
>
> My advice for the community is to stop getting hung up thinking up ways to better market and grow the community. Instead simply remember what made it what it is, good people, supporting each other and donating their time and effort to make it better than it was yesterday. Step up, do something, make a difference, do it now, no matter how small, in whatever way you can.
Anyway, I'm giving up (no, WOWODC 2012 won't be cancelled).
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/johnthuss%40gmail.com
This email sent to john...@gmail.com
Denis Frolov
developers, community will just slowly shrink and eventually die. And
I think it will die anyway even if we all start contributing new cool
stuff. Cool tech is not enough to start getting traction. Arguably, we
already have good enough tech (otherwise we would have switched
already) and so getting traction with what we already have is a
highest priority. And key thing here is feedback from potential
switchers.
Sorry for repeating myself, but here are the steps that could work in
my opinion:
1. Build a simple landing page with a few screencasts demoing an
initial set of specific features of our choice (guess) unique to WO
(component actions? D2W?). Make it as easy as possible to install the
tools and create something in a way that is easier/cooler than that of
direct competitors. The page/screencasts/installer need not be perfect
- it's just it would be harder to get decent conversion rate needed
for Step 3 w/o them.
2. Get some target audience of early adopters on this page by posting
links on forums, etc. Alternatively, we can get some traffic via
AdWords.
3. Gather feedback from early adopters by running a
http://www.kissinsights.com/ survey on landing page or asking users
for email and contacting them directly with questions. Alternatively,
we can try getting feedback on places where we'll post links to
landing page. The key question to ask is "Will you continue using WO?
If not, why?"
4. Iterate based on feedback. E.g. if users are stopped by complexity
of "getting started" step, we need to make it more simple. If the
problem is that WO is not open source, we might try masking this fact
(WO is just a base, Wonder is OS, etc). If the problem is that there
is no book, we need to write one. If there is no show stopper for
getting started, we need to understand what stops users from switching
on the next steps. If it's poor documentation, we can improve the
wiki. If current features are not interesting enough, we can try
adding some new ones (integration between WO and iOS/Android, etc) and
test with those. But IMO we can't and shouldn't iterate at all without
getting feedback from switchers (not us) first. The chances are too
high that we'll be solving "wrong" problems.
We are extremely busy here with our own product (Songsterr) but we'll
try to contribute as much as we can. Especially, if community decides
to take the route suggested above. At the very least we can contribute
some graphics and UX designer time to build the landing page (w/o
screencasts). And we are open to discuss monetary sponsorship of
things that are needed for steps above (including new cool stuff if
it's need would be apparent from feedback).
Denis
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Pascal Robert <pro...@macti.ca> wrote:
>
> Le 2012-03-28 à 08:44, Q a écrit :
>
>>
>> On 28/03/2012, at 9:38 AM, Pascal Robert wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Le 2012-03-27 à 19:30, Mike Schrag a écrit :
>>>
>>>>>>> "I think we should use the funds to pay people to fix issues that the majority of users are having. The issues will be voted by the community and the most voted issues will become the highest priorities."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is not how Wonder was created and now how I expect that it will continue. If you have a problem, learn how to fix it. Then put it in Wonder.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the past, we had Apple sponsorship and most of the big additions to Wonder between 2007 and 2010 came from Apple… We don't have that sponsorship anymore, and personally I don't think we will survive if we don't pay people for major stuff. I don't think we will survive anyway, but that's another story…
>>>> Apple funded a VERY small percentage of the contributions to Wonder. Almost all of the contributions I made came from mDimension donating their time, bandwidth, and hardware for the good of the community. Frankly, if Apple hadn't funded the things they did, I would have done them anyway, because I just enjoyed making things.
>>>>
>>>> This approach of paying for fixes seems like you're just going to end up with a collection of bounty hunters instead of a community. On top of that, there's no way you're going to be able to afford to pay the market cost for this work. mDimension easily donated a couple hundred thousand dollars of time if you applied their real hourly rate to the work. So on top of encouraging people to only give if they get paid, they're going to be paid crap, so why would anyone even bother?
>>>>
>>>> I really don't think things are stagnant because of the lack of money. They're stagnant because the remaining people in the community don't care enough to contribute. I don't buy any of the "I don't know how to do X" or "I don't have time to do X." You have to want it. I didn't know how to write nearly any of what was in WOLips before I started working on WOLips, and likewise with Wonder. I learned WebObjects working on Wonder. I'm would wager that everyone who worked on Wonder was in the same category. Contribution is also positive reinforcement. The coolest times in Wonder for me were always when one person contributing got someone else energized to contribute and amazing things were made.
>>>>
>>>> The real question is: Who is currently NOT contributing because they're just waiting for a payday to do so? If you're perfectly happy enjoying the fruits of the community while not giving back to the community, look in the mirror for the reason it's dying. Either give a shit, or don't be sad that it dies.
>>>
>>
>> I agree with mike's statement, and can relate. I have worked on many different parts of WOLips, Wonder and numerous other projects, and more often than not I had no idea where to start, all I knew was what I wanted to achieve. You just have to know what you want to do, and don't give up until you succeed or know that it can't be done. Some of the code I have contributed took me over a year to get right (arguably some of it still isn't), and there are other things I have been working on sporadically (because it's not something I need yet) for close to 4 years now that could be great, or may never be finished, I still don't know which. I won't even mention the number of experiments I have abandoned because they couldn't be made to work the way I had hoped. Nobody could justify paying for that time, particularly to someone who had no idea how to do it in the first place, and with possibly nothing to show for it at the end.
>>
>> For me it has never been about getting payment, recognition, or privilege. The sole reason I have spent thousands of hours of my own time working on code for the sole purpose of giving it away is one of moral duty and respect for the people who did it before me and still do it today. They have spent innumerable hours they could have used to do paid work, donated resources and sacrificed time with their families and friends, so that we could benefit from their generosity. People like David Terán who gave more of his life to this community than you would think possible. I do it, because they did it before me, it's my payment for using their work.
>>
>> My advice for the community is to stop getting hung up thinking up ways to better market and grow the community. Instead simply remember what made it what it is, good people, supporting each other and donating their time and effort to make it better than it was yesterday. Step up, do something, make a difference, do it now, no matter how small, in whatever way you can.
>
> Did the community grow by simply supporting each other (and I won't say that people support each other, and I'm not aware of any community where everyone give and take)? How a shrinking community is going to get better? Especially after that most experts left it or can't contribute? Did we have new leaders who risen up in the last two years? Do we have new sponsors like mDimension or Apple were? How can we find sponsors when most of the community are small (one or two guys) shops?
>
> Anyway, I'm giving up (no, WOWODC 2012 won't be cancelled).
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/dfrolov%40demax.ru
>
> This email sent to dfr...@demax.ru
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
This email sent to webobjects-dev...@googlegroups.com
Pascal Robert
Le 2012-03-28 à 11:09, Denis Frolov a écrit :
> I think Pascal is right. If we don't make WO attractive to new
> developers, community will just slowly shrink and eventually die. And
> I think it will die anyway even if we all start contributing new cool
> stuff. Cool tech is not enough to start getting traction. Arguably, we
> already have good enough tech (otherwise we would have switched
> already) and so getting traction with what we already have is a
> highest priority. And key thing here is feedback from potential
> switchers.
>
> Sorry for repeating myself, but here are the steps that could work in
> my opinion:
>
> 1. Build a simple landing page with a few screencasts demoing an
> initial set of specific features of our choice (guess) unique to WO
> (component actions? D2W?). Make it as easy as possible to install the
> tools and create something in a way that is easier/cooler than that of
> direct competitors. The page/screencasts/installer need not be perfect
> - it's just it would be harder to get decent conversion rate needed
> for Step 3 w/o them.
>
> 2. Get some target audience of early adopters on this page by posting
> links on forums, etc. Alternatively, we can get some traffic via
> AdWords.
Or just talking it on places like java.net. But nobody done it in the past, so I doubt anybody will do it now… After a couple of years, I came to the conclusion that the community doesn't want to get new people on board.
>
> 3. Gather feedback from early adopters by running a
> http://www.kissinsights.com/ survey on landing page or asking users
> for email and contacting them directly with questions. Alternatively,
> we can try getting feedback on places where we'll post links to
> landing page. The key question to ask is "Will you continue using WO?
> If not, why?"
>
> 4. Iterate based on feedback. E.g. if users are stopped by complexity
> of "getting started" step, we need to make it more simple. If the
> problem is that WO is not open source, we might try masking this fact
> (WO is just a base, Wonder is OS, etc). If the problem is that there
> is no book, we need to write one. If there is no show stopper for
> getting started, we need to understand what stops users from switching
> on the next steps. If it's poor documentation, we can improve the
> wiki. If current features are not interesting enough, we can try
> adding some new ones (integration between WO and iOS/Android, etc) and
> test with those. But IMO we can't and shouldn't iterate at all without
> getting feedback from switchers (not us) first. The chances are too
> high that we'll be solving "wrong" problems.
That was the whole point of the wiki cleanup and wocommunity.org. How can we get new people when even WO people get confused about Ant vs internal Eclipse build? I get people every week who ask me for help because of that, so just imagine how it is for people who are just getting started.
Like I said numerous times, according to the stats of wocommunity.org, there is some interest in learning more about WO, but the current situation (tools and documentation) make it so that we won't get much people.
Pascal Robert
Le 2012-03-28 à 11:02, John Huss a écrit :
> Technologies come and go; there is a lifecycle for everything. That is a fundamental attribute of software development. The fact that WebObjects has endured for so long as a relevant and useful piece of technology is amazing. But like all technologies, it can't last forever. The sun is setting (or has set) on WO. It's time to move on; that's what programmers do - our toolset evolves over time - usually it changes dramatically every 5-10 years. This is just another evolution whose time has come.
>
> It is sort of sweet and heart-warming to see the outpouring of affection for WO, but the reality is that it's time to move on. The best thing you can do for WO now is to gain experience with other technologies and then help people migrate to them. Cayenne should be at the top of this list. On the HTML side, I'd love have someone find out how hard it is to migrate WO components to Tapestry.
>
> The reality is that WO is LEGACY technology. It should be treated as such. That means you continue to maintain your apps that use WO, you find a new technology, and you write your new apps in something else.
That was the whole idea of making Wonder as a layer on top of WO, to ease the transition to Cayenne and something else for the presentation layer. It's crazy to see people getting to work on GNUWebStep when they should work on Wonder instead, but some just want to use ObjC even if that means they don't get ERRest and other useful bits. But making that transition will take time (and probably money)...
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca
>
> This email sent to pro...@macti.ca
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Denis Frolov
I don't think we need a major cleanup to get initial feedback. There
are good chances that new people are stopped by problems that have
nothing to do with non-beginner issues like "And vs. internal Eclipse
build". Cleanup should be the highest priority only after we
understand that users are happy to try the thing out and are somewhat
excited about it, BUT are eventually stopped by mess in wiki. And if
mess in wiki is not the biggest problem, we should spend our time on
things that are.
Chuck Hill
Chuck
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net
>
> This email sent to ch...@global-village.net
--
Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development
Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems.
http://www.global-village.net/gvc/practical_webobjects
Chuck Hill
>
> For me it has never been about getting payment, recognition, or privilege. The sole reason I have spent thousands of hours of my own time working on code for the sole purpose of giving it away is one of moral duty and respect for the people who did it before me and still do it today. They have spent innumerable hours they could have used to do paid work, donated resources and sacrificed time with their families and friends, so that we could benefit from their generosity. People like David Terán who gave more of his life to this community than you would think possible. I do it, because they did it before me, it's my payment for using their work.
Yes!
> My advice for the community is to stop getting hung up thinking up ways to better market and grow the community. Instead simply remember what made it what it is, good people, supporting each other and donating their time and effort to make it better than it was yesterday. Step up, do something, make a difference, do it now, no matter how small, in whatever way you can.
My opinion is that this is the only way that changes will happen. We have a lot of people spending a lot to time discussion a lot of options, but what really gets done in the end? We need people doing something before they need leadership.
Chuck
David LeBer
--
David LeBer
Codeferous Software
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/dleber_wodev%40codeferous.com
>
> This email sent to dleber...@codeferous.com
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Karl
WO+D2W+WONDER is fscking unbelievable. Nothing compares. I have enterprise level apps from 2003 that run today just as they ran 9 years ago.
So its all about the next transition. We are smart. We know so much more about the web that some script kiddy.
Karl
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kgretton%40mac.com
>
> This email sent to kgre...@mac.com
James Cicenia
OMG What an amazing suite of tools! Especially with the REST work to support my iOS apps. And now back to my beast... granted
i probably didn't do things right, but with wonder and d2w, I have ripped out thousands of lines of code! And am getting incredible
features too for my clients that is amazing them and my productivity has skyrocketed.
And since Wonder keeps improving, it sure doesn't feel legacy to me.
James
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/james%40jimijon.com
>
> This email sent to ja...@jimijon.com
Kieran Kelleher
On Mar 28, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Chuck Hill wrote:
> The sun set on WO a long time ago (well, assuming you think that it ever really shined on WO). For new projects, WebObjects and Wonder is still my choice until I find something _better_ not just newer. I am not moving to something newer and worse because WO is old (though I might move to something newer and worse if using WO is an impediment to getting new work). When I find something better, I am gone. I've been looking since 1999 or so... I look on WebObjects more as a completed library, not an EOL product with no future. Wonder is the source of new features. Granted, that means no bug fixes that can't be done in Wonder, but what software do you use that does NOT have bugs?
>
>
> Chuck
>
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
ISHIMOTO Ken
I am now and in the future will use WO fro all my Projects. I am tired to learn new stuff.
I can make and fix with WO & Wonder everything I need, and that's OK.
Ken
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ken%40ksroom.com
>
> This email sent to k...@ksroom.com
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Matteo Centro
Andrew Lindesay
> I am not moving to something newer and worse because WO is old...
...
> ...That means you continue to maintain your apps that use WO, you
> find a new technology, and you write your new apps in something else.
You may be interested to take a look at;
http://www.silvereye.co.nz/lestuff.html
Regards;
--
Andrew Lindesay
www.silvereye.co.nz
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Johnny Miller
David Holt
David
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/programmingosx%40mac.com
>
> This email sent to program...@mac.com
Travis Britt
> On Mar 27, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Mike Schrag wrote:
>> I really don't think things are stagnant because of the lack of money. They're stagnant because the remaining people in the community don't care enough to contribute. I don't buy any of the "I don't know how to do X" or "I don't have time to do X." You have to want it.
>
Yes, this is very important.
Adding: lack of bug fixes and new features (if that's a problem) will not be solved by more organization. Like any other tool WO is better suited to some problems than others. I will use it until I find something better for that class of problems. I am dispassionate about this. For several months I just haven't needed anything that wasn't already present and working in WO, and experiments are on no timetable but my own, or others willing to pitch in. (Yay git.)
I would not expect the WO community to grow much. And that's OK. All technology has a finite lifespan. Even if WO's first-run experience was better (of course it could be better, and making it better is a noble goal) I wouldn't expect a lot of growth primarily because WO's core is frozen in time. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that WO's core is flexible and well designed, and Wonder has been able to assert itself into nooks and crannies that wouldn't be possible with traditional Java frameworks. But there are things that can't be done in Wonder. The fact that the core is closed and will never be updated certainly influences the lifespan.
[Yeah, yeah I'm wrapping up.]
The community is lovely and populated with talented engineers (and hackers.) The quality of the conferences -- attendees and content -- is proof of this. And, for many purposes, WO continues outshines other solutions. I have no plans to stop using it. I reserve the right to dump it like a sack of moldy tangerines as soon as something better or more interesting emerges from the primordial ooze. :)
tb
Emmanuel Tote Dominguez Torres
Pascal Robert
Le 2012-03-28 à 17:24, Emmanuel Tote Dominguez Torres a écrit :
> about the book topic, wouldn't it be easier to "upgrade" the old books with Xcode and wobuilder examples to actual examples with wonder, most of the topics are still valid starting points but when you are a begginer it's frustrating to be reading the books and lack to ability to do the examples because you are not able to grasp how to do all that in eclipse.
> I suppouse it would take less work.
We would need to rewrite everything, to not have Apple Legal team on your back, saying that we don't respect their copyright.
> and about the "frozen core" conversation, wouldnt it be interesting trying to do an open version little by little ? or would we be getting sued by apple just by thinking about it?
Open version based on the current code (decompiled by Jad)? Bad idea.
> I am a begginer myself but I think this is a very amazing tool wit lots of capabilities and it is still easier to keep enhancing it than finding something that gets close to it.
>
> Emmanuel~
> _______________________________________________
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca
>
> This email sent to pro...@macti.ca
Lachlan Deck
> Hello John, Chuck, Pascal and Others;
>
> > I am not moving to something newer and worse because WO is old...
> ...
>> ...That means you continue to maintain your apps that use WO, you
>> find a new technology, and you write your new apps in something else.
>
> You may be interested to take a look at;
>
> http://www.silvereye.co.nz/lestuff.html
Very cool!
Lachlan Deck
lachla...@gmail.com
Kieran Kelleher
http://songster.mowgligames.com/landing.php
Regards Kieran
___________________________
Sent from my iPad.
On Mar 28, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Denis Frolov <dfr...@demax.ru> wrote:
> We are extremely busy here with our own product (Songsterr)
Chuck Hill
Impressive site.
On 2012-03-28, at 9:14 PM, Kieran Kelleher wrote:
> Songsterr? Are you talking about this?
>
> http://songster.mowgligames.com/landing.php
>
> Regards Kieran
> ___________________________
> Sent from my iPad.
>
>
> On Mar 28, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Denis Frolov <dfr...@demax.ru> wrote:
>
>> We are extremely busy here with our own product (Songsterr)
> _______________________________________________
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Johan Henselmans
On Mar 28, 2012, at 1:38 AM, Pascal Robert wrote:
>
> Le 2012-03-27 à 19:30, Mike Schrag a écrit :
>
>>>>> "I think we should use the funds to pay people to fix issues that the majority of users are having. The issues will be voted by the community and the most voted issues will become the highest priorities."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is not how Wonder was created and now how I expect that it will continue. If you have a problem, learn how to fix it. Then put it in Wonder.
>>>
>>> In the past, we had Apple sponsorship and most of the big additions to Wonder between 2007 and 2010 came from Apple… We don't have that sponsorship anymore, and personally I don't think we will survive if we don't pay people for major stuff. I don't think we will survive anyway, but that's another story…
>> Apple funded a VERY small percentage of the contributions to Wonder. Almost all of the contributions I made came from mDimension donating their time, bandwidth, and hardware for the good of the community. Frankly, if Apple hadn't funded the things they did, I would have done them anyway, because I just enjoyed making things.
>>
>> This approach of paying for fixes seems like you're just going to end up with a collection of bounty hunters instead of a community. On top of that, there's no way you're going to be able to afford to pay the market cost for this work. mDimension easily donated a couple hundred thousand dollars of time if you applied their real hourly rate to the work. So on top of encouraging people to only give if they get paid, they're going to be paid crap, so why would anyone even bother?
>>
>> I really don't think things are stagnant because of the lack of money. They're stagnant because the remaining people in the community don't care enough to contribute. I don't buy any of the "I don't know how to do X" or "I don't have time to do X." You have to want it. I didn't know how to write nearly any of what was in WOLips before I started working on WOLips, and likewise with Wonder. I learned WebObjects working on Wonder. I'm would wager that everyone who worked on Wonder was in the same category. Contribution is also positive reinforcement. The coolest times in Wonder for me were always when one person contributing got someone else energized to contribute and amazing things were made.
>>
>> The real question is: Who is currently NOT contributing because they're just waiting for a payday to do so? If you're perfectly happy enjoying the fruits of the community while not giving back to the community, look in the mirror for the reason it's dying. Either give a shit, or don't be sad that it dies.
>
> I think reasons don't contribute are:
>
> 1) Some just don't care and are leachers. Yes, people you can blame me to saying that. But anyway, any community are like that, no community have everyone contributing, it's just plain impossible.
>
> 2) People are afraid of contributing. That's one of the reasons of why I added the "integration" branch in Wonder, and doing a "Contributing to the community" talk at WOWODC.
>
> 3) People don't have time. That's the answer I got from many WO experts. And I can't do anything about that.
>
> So I really don't know how we can improve the situation…
>
>
There are two extra reasons that people do not contribute: the scale of the project is immense. It is really intimidating to have a look at the project and see what is available. This is not a place where people beginning to learn a framework would be happy with.
Which leads me to another reason people do not contribute: people get stuck in a problem and there is no infrastructure to work together properly.
I have started to build several things I would have liked to contribute to Wonder (some localized date-time D2W component and a print as pdf/excel D2W component) that i am sure with the help of some people would be fixed in half a day. Problem is that from where I am working, the nearest approachable WO-developer would be located in Germany, a few hundred miles away.
I think an IRC channel, that once was setup, but never practically used, or some other 'live' channel that would be available at a specific time would get me a lot more productive in contributing stuff.
On the other hand, I am a Casual WebObjects Developer, I spend a few hours/days a month tinkering with WebObjects projects, and sometime (like now) actually building some new stuff. That might also lead to my pitiful contributing situation. Sniff.
Anyway, I think it might be a nice idea to have a place where one can find requests to improve Wonder, so that if there is interest, people can pool together to get something fixed or build. I think working side to side from experienced and less experienced people might lead to more contributions.
For instance:
I would like to have/use/build a localized time/date component,
a GoogleMaps/OpenStreetMap component
and a proper introduction in how to use OpenId version 2 with Wonder.
If anybody is interested in working with me (some experience, bot not into the deepest bowls of the frameworks), please let me know.
Something like that.
(Did I just start something?)
> _______________________________________________
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/johan%40netsense.nl
>
> This email sent to jo...@netsense.nl
Vriendelijke Groeten,
Johan Henselmans
jo...@netsense.nl
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Alexis Tual
The sun set on WO a long time ago (well, assuming you think that it ever really shined on WO). For new projects, WebObjects and Wonder is still my choice until I find something _better_ not just newer. I am not moving to something newer and worse because WO is old (though I might move to something newer and worse if using WO is an impediment to getting new work). When I find something better, I am gone. I've been looking since 1999 or so... I look on WebObjects more as a completed library, not an EOL product with no future. Wonder is the source of new features. Granted, that means no bug fixes that can't be done in Wonder, but what software do you use that does NOT have bugs?
Chuck
That said, there are non-technical considerations (number of jobs, number of developers available, documentation, training, support, licensing...) where WO can't compete...
As for contributions to WOnder, I think when some WO experienced dev has a technical need, he should ask the list if someone has already done it and is willing to donate it to WOnder. If yes, the WO dev takes the code and adapts it to WOnder, if no he starts from scratch in his WOnder clone to facilitate future sharing. I think git opens new perspectives to contributing to WOnder.
ISHIMOTO Ken
------------------------------------------------------------
For Comitter:
Create Framework, changes everything in other Frameworks that have to , commit, done, Hero Mode.
------------------------------------------------------------
For Non-Comitter:
Create Framework, changes everything that has to be changed test it. Use it. Would like to share
make first Patch to other Frameworks : wait , wait, wait, Fine
make next Patch : wait....
make next Patch but somebody says we don't need that....
Hmm now the Commit can't be done.
------------------------------------------------------------
That's the big difference, and I really think it wan't get better.
Also Johan,
if we find a way to work together on your D2W Components I would love to. I also have about 30 Custom Components.
Ken
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ken%40ksroom.com
>
> This email sent to k...@ksroom.com
_______________________________________________
David Holt
Love to help with D2W components where possible. I have several of my own now that ought to be added.
David
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/programmingosx%40mac.com
>
> This email sent to program...@mac.com
Kieran Kelleher
For a new framework, an example app that showcases the new features will make it more likely to get eyeballs - otherwise how can peers quickly and easily see the benefits.
All anyone has to do is add your fork's remote, fetch the remote, checkout the feature branch (3 simple commands) and play with the feature or examine it. Any peer can easily do diff between your tree and master or integration to see what has changed too.
The point here is that git/github (again) has taken away the barriers for passive peer collaboration. We must stop looking for excuses not to take action on something we want or need to do .... "what if this" and "what if that".
If you stuff is good enough, it will be obvious and/or voted up by people on the list or whatever...... and it will be pulled into Wonder upstream, if not it won't. Either way, you should just try..... and don't take it personally if someone does not want one contribution - you can always keep it for yourself :-)
> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/kelleherk%40gmail.com
>
> This email sent to kell...@gmail.com
Lachlan Deck
Wonder, itself is a set of frameworks built ontop of other frameworks/jars. There is no need for 'everything' to live inside Wonder.
<sarcasm>
There's this neat little feature of java called a classpath that you could 'extend' :)
</sarcasm>
If you've got your own concentrated and reusable stuff that you want to share, do it: make a framework/jar available, post each version to WOCommunity's maven repo. Write your howto/docs on your project's github page, make it known. Simple. If people like it they'll use it, fork it, contribute back to it.
cheers,
Lachlan Deck
lachla...@gmail.com
ISHIMOTO Ken
It seems a core concept of smaller building blocks is being overlooked in favour of the monolithic all-or-nothing-one-stop-shop.
Wonder, itself is a set of frameworks built ontop of other frameworks/jars. There is no need for 'everything' to live inside Wonder.
<sarcasm>
There's this neat little feature of java called a classpath that you could 'extend' :)
</sarcasm>
If you've got your own concentrated and reusable stuff that you want to share, do it: make a framework/jar available, post each version to WOCommunity's maven repo. Write your howto/docs on your project's github page, make it known. Simple. If people like it they'll use it, fork it, contribute back to it.
cheers,
Lachlan Deck
lachla...@gmail.com
_______________________________________________
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobje...@lists.apple.com)
Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Kieran Kelleher
There are two kind of new Contributor1. Real wonder or plain WebObjects User, the make some changes and it's done.No way that is no big problem and I hope a lot of People will contribute in the Future.And of course make a Fork, make chances, push done... HAPPYBut I am not one of this group. That's my Problem.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------2. The good question what is my Problem?To make it a bit easier, here is a picture.
<WodkaFlow.png>