Just when I though I was out...

[stone jaguar]

...Kit pulls me back in ;^)))

Greetings!

Kinda suspected it might come to this. As we say in Spanish, "El que
mucho abarca, poco aprieta". Would have been nice to have just let it
run free for a while and see whether "...they will come."

Since this is Spec's actual forum name...can we purloin/salvage the
discarded old name, "The Underground Jungle"? I mean, this is not
really WJ, right? I feel rather a trespasser without his blessing. And
frankly, I always loved the old name.

Just returned from a spell in Panamá...quite nice...will make up some
credible-sounding lies and photoshop some polaroids of my garden and
post them when convenient.

Happy Trails,

Jay

[SheKong]

Jay, glad to see ya! Anyone know where Grenada John is? I feel like
I'm in an after hours lounge with all the hardcores. Ann

[stone jaguar]

¡¡¡LOL!!!

Gotta whip Doña Kirsten to use her feminine wiles to get everyone else
back in.

BTW - was up at and around the Heliconia bella type locality and, IMO,
there is NO possibility that it is extinct there. Nothing flowering,
but found many things that are more commercially valuable by many
times multiples to be quite abundant. Most of the mid-elevation forest
in that area is in great shape and it is within the boundaries of an
NP. Given that I saw it in less gracious areas just down the road
about 18 mos ago makes me conclude that it's undoubtably still up
there.

Red herring for would-be poachers, perhaps?

J

> > Jay- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[llam...@bellsouth.net]

Well, looks like my feminine wiles (meaning my email address book)
snaired a couple ganders - as well as a gaggle of geese.. John is
still playing hard to get but he is hanging around. Sent me a gorgeous
white frangipani he went all the way to Texas to get. I asked him to
post it.

I am not much of a tavern wench, Ann, but your ref to the hardcore
late-nighters is right on ;-)

As topics come in that relate to experts I know I will ask them to
come in to comment. This site makes that easy.

Jay, we do have permission to use the WJ name. I posted that in one of
Chris' threads. We all like the Underground but it just was not a
good name for web crawlers to bring in the plant crowd as I understand
it. Guess the web does limit creativity.

Anyway, Chris sprang this on me too but I am certainly glad you all
came in just for the asking. I do not have access to the WJ address
book so can only rely on the grape vine to get the word out. Any
tropical plant freaks anybody else wants to bring in are welcome.
Don't see why this has to be restricted to old members.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[thegreenman]

I always intended this as a temporary place to hang out until Greg's masterpiece can be unveiled. I never intended to steal his thunder or name. Like I have said in the past, I come to the Jungle as much for the personalities as the plant info. I don't think the Jungle can survive without him and his larger than life personality. I'm just trying to help out (even though he never asked :-P).

C

[SheKong]

I know that they are notoriously difficult in cultivation, making it
imperative that they are left in the wild. A friend sent some photos
of when he was there a few months ago. It was so wet it looked like
Bella was growing in puddles. Of course that only feeds my fantasy
that Bella would like it here with me! Ann

[llam...@bellsouth.net]

Only place I have seen this is in Berry's book. He says it has
distinctive reticulated leaves. Hope you have a photo Jay.

The book also makes note that it is/was grown in cultivation in Costa
Rica as well as Hawaii - so seems like a chance it might grow in
tropical areas of Aussiland. Is it possible to get seed from one of
those places where it is in cultivation? Too expensive?

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[SheKong]

Kirsten, It's really, really, really picky and beautiful, which make
it highly sought after by collectors. I think if it were really ugly
it would have a better chance of in situ conservation. Here's a link
to a photo. Ann

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x154/anncains/BellawithBruce.jpg

[stone jaguar]

Ann:

Once again I ephasize that the region where it occurs (straddling the
lower parts of Continental Divide between eastern Veraguas and western
Coclé) has a LOT of primary forest cover and is lightly disturbed in
many areas. There are two NPs in this region, one that is pretty tough
to get in and out of during the wets. Much of the terrain is difficult
enough to dissuade fatso looky-lookies...you are not really going to
get to see a decent colony without a fair amount of mud & aching leg
muscles. Assume that people in the heliconia crowd have "a" site they
visit that's been outed on the Caribbean versant of Veraguas, but
there are undoubtably others that people like me have no interest in
sharing. Doubt that it is in any real danger in situ...not many (any?)
microendemic heliconias...makes for a good story, though.

Jay

[ariscott]

Stunning heliconia, for sure. Why won't it do well there, Ann? The
elevation?

Regards, Ari :)

[SheKong]

Jay, I'm not sure if I agree with you on that one. There is orchid
poaching going on in that area. I've had email discussions with Carla
Black who is the most passionate Panamanian Heliconia Conservationist
I know (actually the only one I know LOL) on what 5 dollars buys in
the black market plant world. I know when Carla took Anders Lindstrom
to a privately owned farm to check out some clumps of another rare
Heli they had been poached. "Safe numbers" in the wild is a relative
term, especially with a heliconia that is picky in cultivation. I love
your articles, think you're a brilliant plant guy but if Carla tells
me Bella is in danger, I believe
her. Ann
Here's a link to a little Bella story.
http://home.coqui.net/tciendre/hunting%20heliconia%20%20bella.htm

ps Ari, I think it is picky about elevation, soil type, rainfall,
humidity, etc.

[SheKong]

PS I just checked the Official Endangered Heliconia List and sure
enough, Bella is on it. Ann

On Nov 10, 11:02 am, SheKong <a...@nqheliconias.com> wrote:
> Jay, I'm not sure if I agree with you on that one. There is orchid
> poaching going on in that area. I've had email discussions with Carla
> Black who is the most passionate Panamanian Heliconia Conservationist
> I know (actually the only one I know LOL) on what 5 dollars buys in
> the black market plant world. I know when Carla took Anders Lindstrom
> to a privately owned farm to check out some clumps of another rare
> Heli they had been poached. "Safe numbers" in the wild is a relative
> term, especially with a heliconia that is picky in cultivation. I love
> your articles, think you're a brilliant plant guy but if Carla tells
> me Bella is in danger, I believe
> her. Ann

> Here's a link to a little Bella story.http://home.coqui.net/tciendre/hunting%20heliconia%20%20bella.htm

[llam...@bellsouth.net]

Random thoughts: Niche plants can be very plentiful in their native
area but readily accessible fringes may support a limited number of a
species which may become more or less poached. The actual number of
flowering plants therefore can be limited even though the population
is not particularly reduced by poaching in the less accessible native
areas. Differing outlooks may develop when a species is endemic to a
limited area and may be considered endangered simply because all wild
areas are vulnerable to destruction - even parks. Hurricanes, pests,
droughts or fires can easily ravage the habitats of niche species -
let alone poachers.

Sometimes the "rare" or 'endangered" designation means that a native
habitat needs protecting more than actual reduction on the number of a
species left. Thus was the case in the infamous spotted owl in the
Pacific Northwest of this country. The owl was held up as an
endangered species to help focus the environmental effort to save the
first growth forests. Unfortunately the environmentalists did not take
the human needs into account. It really backfired on them when it was
shown that the owl can be found throughout much of the mountain states
and is not endangered in its greater range.

But as poaching goes - if Jay can get in there, there are surely
other brawny people who can do the same - especially for money.

I am glad there are so many beautiful and unusual flowers that are not
endangered and difficult to cultivate and Cheap! . :-))

> > > Regards, Ari :)- Hide quoted text -

[SheKong]

Kirsten,
You've made some very good points. Maybe there is a
sense of pessimism in some conservationists. That if something is in
limited numbers and in danger of being poached it'll end up gone. It's
such a complex matter. But I'm glad there are healthy populations out
there.

Go figure why a self professed heliconia unenthusiast gets to see
them all the time! Don't you get a little twinge of admiration when
you see them Jay? Can Bella lure you away from the aroids, climbing
yams and other space oddities to the dark side of Zingerberales?

Ann

[stone jaguar]

Ann:

I'm sure that Carla Black has forgotten more about Heliconia bella
than I will ever know, but the point that I'm making is that when you
have fairly large amounts of suitable habitat that is tough to access
these things become hard to find WAAAAAAAY before they become locally
extinct. Having said that, I am in no way implying that they're still
common or not locally threatened by unscrupulous collectors. But I
don't think I have to tell you that the local demand for orchids is
significantly higher than that for helicones. I have seen several
(licenced and not) roadside orchid sellers in western Panamá and none
of them had helicones for sale...mind-blowing bromeliads, Costus and
Calathea spp., "yes", Heliconia, "no". As an aside, I have been in the
field with some big name conservation people on a number of occasions
and am constantly amazed at the allure that some orchids
have...perfectly reasonable people who know better will not hesitate,
as if possessed by some weird power, to grab one off a branch...

Just so you know, I come at this hobby after working for real with
tropical vertebrates for decades...plants are *dead easy* after you've
chased endangered birds, small mammals or cryptic amphibia around the
world's cloud forests. After all, they don't move! I really have
little time for people who cry wolf...without knowing her I am quite
sure that this is not the case with Ms. Black, but Kirsten's very well-
made point about the particular vulnerability of fringe populations
should be emphasized again.

A really, really rare Panamanian plant? Anthurium kamemotoanum, a very
showy narrow microendemic from the southeastern slopes of the summit
region of Cerro Jefe/Chagres NP. After careful examination of their
known range (which will leave you, BTW, bruised and bleeding from
encounters with walls of razor grass and hidden sinkholes) over the
course of the past 6 years, I estimate that there are a whole lot less
than 100 flowering-sized plants in the world. As far as I know, there
are less than 10 in cultivation, worldwide...and probably none in the
mainland U.S. Univ. of Hawaii used it as a parent in a lot of the new
complex, tulip-type hybrids popular now but I'm not sure whether they
have kept the founding stock there.

And Kit, LOTS of "beefy" field botanists have looked for it up there
with zero luck.

Like I said - *dead easy* plants don't move...

Brgds,

J

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[SheKong]

Jay,
Your points are well taken.
Perhaps we can agree on the fact that since I've never been there and
have no background in serious conservation, that anything else I have
to say on the subject would be talking out of my ass! Still it's been
an interesting thread. Cheers, Ann