Web2py is not too designer friendly?

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Pystar

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Jun 28, 2009, 3:26:53 PM6/28/09
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I have been using web2py now since 2007 and i have found the framework
to be exceptional. My only grouse with it is that it is not too
designer friendly. I come from a web designer back ground and i always
like to design the interface first but with web2py, it seems that
Massimo who is an exceptional programmer allowed his programming bent
to influence how users of the framework design their web
applications.
I find using custom forms not too intuitive and free flowing and would
have liked to have web2py support you designing your web interface
first using whatever tool (i.e. dreamweaver, photoshop) before doing
the backend.
I might be wrong in my summation but i stand to be corrected
Thanks
Pystar

mdipierro

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Jun 28, 2009, 3:55:51 PM6/28/09
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I do not know if you are right or wrong since I never used dreamweaver
of photoshop to design forms.
Can you provide an example of what "gets in the way" and perhaps we
can find a better way.

massimo

Hans Donner

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Jun 28, 2009, 4:16:41 PM6/28/09
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the only framework/templating I found very html-designer friendly is
tapestry (a java one), now an apache project.

mdipierro

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Jun 28, 2009, 4:52:36 PM6/28/09
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I am not sure I understand what you mean by "designer friendly" could
you explain?

On Jun 28, 3:16 pm, Hans Donner <hans.don...@pobox.com> wrote:
> the only framework/templating I found very html-designer friendly is
> tapestry (a java one), now an apache project.
>

Hans Donner

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Jun 28, 2009, 5:03:54 PM6/28/09
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tapestry works with html compliant files, enabling using normal html
tags with some special tapestry added attributes, thus enabling using
normal html tools

The html files can contain mock-ups that can be displayed during
design, but are replaced by real content when in a running
environment, Again, these mockups allow designers and others to see
how the output will look likejust using the html files.

There is come configuration between the html files (view) and the
application logic (model) that makes the magic happen.

Pystar

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Jun 28, 2009, 5:39:42 PM6/28/09
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By saying designer friendly i mean being able to design my forms, web
pages with whatever tool i want (e.g dreamweaver, photoshop) and still
have access to web2py's validators and other helpers without using a
walk around like "custom forms"
Pystar

mdipierro

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Jun 28, 2009, 6:31:06 PM6/28/09
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I understand the general concept but I still miss the point. the HTML
generated by {{=form}} can be replaced by the HTML generated with
dreamweaver (*) and this is decoupled from the validation process that
happens in the controller.

(*) you have to make sure your form includes {{=form.hidden_fields}},
somwhere displays {{=form.errors}} and fields have the proper names,
values, and classes.

I guess I do not see how they could be more friendlier. Can you give a
concrete example? I do not see how web2py gets in the way of forms.

Massimo

weheh

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Jun 28, 2009, 6:58:26 PM6/28/09
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I don't see the author's point. I'm able to easily do things that are
visually pleasing, are information dense, yet easy to understand.
Things that would have taken me a lot longer to hack together without
web2py.

mdipierro

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Jun 28, 2009, 7:14:33 PM6/28/09
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Perhaps we should make some video on how to create custom forms. I am
not the right person to do this since i do not even have dreamweaver.

Pystar

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Jun 28, 2009, 7:53:45 PM6/28/09
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I think that is what i need. A tutorial about how to create custom
forms using web2py. I really need it badly and i guess some other
people do too.
Thanks
Pystar

Yarko Tymciurak

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Jun 28, 2009, 10:03:52 PM6/28/09
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I think there are several things mixed in here, and it would be good to separate them, talk about them one at a time:

-->  Photoshop design:   This presumably talks about layout of html or flash user interface;
    > what is needed here?
    Perhaps:
      -- standard naming of css fields (for html layouts)
      -- ??  someone applying a photoshop layout to some (perhaps?) grid system, making a defacto std
      -- photoshop design to other layouts:  (or perhaps other than photoshop: e.g. illustrator / vectore based):  svg layout elements;   flash (that is an entirely different thing)

I think the graphical design is independent of

-->  layout design:   HTML / CSS is not the only user interface method (it is old, standard, and roughly static; you can add javascript, java, or svg actions within);  you can also do all or parts of your layout in a flash vm.
   > there is layout for the designer & application writer;
   > there is the question (and great need) for layout modificaitons for the content manager of an application / cms;  e.g. something like jpolite;

--> custom forms design:
   >  the web2py backend does many "template" (standard) things for you, making thinking about forms unnecessary to get many things working.   What is needed is a clean behavioral & interface model for those templates, so that people can design their own - e.g. "custom forms".
   >  that's the backend interface;  it generates html forms;  for custom, there is a need for interaction w/ json (?), svg, flash (amf);

It would be nice to have examples of doing each of these things - most of them will never be "done" by the framework, but custom per application - still, examples would be nice - soon as people have examples.


Am I missing / misstating anything?

Regards,
Yarko

Jason Brower

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Jun 28, 2009, 10:59:42 PM6/28/09
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I personally feel this falls in the lines of IDE or fancy plugin.
Perhaps something for Gimp if you want photoshop like, or a plugin for
Geanery or Bluefish.
Regards,
Jason

mdipierro

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Jun 28, 2009, 11:00:01 PM6/28/09
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I guess one think that is not documented is the css naming convention
follwed by web2py

for a table "table" and a field "field" of type "type" the <input />
tag must have:

name="field" -> required for form submission and processing
id="table_field" -> required for css
class="type" -> required for js+jquery client side validation (for
example you cannot type a-z in an "integer" field, "date" gets popup
calendar, etc.)

This is done automatically by {{=form.custom.widget["field"]}}.

Massimo

Yarko Tymciurak

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Jun 28, 2009, 11:21:16 PM6/28/09
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That would be one thing....

I saw this today, a form defined in "wikiform" - http://sandbox.jspwiki.org/Wiki.jsp?page=BugReportSystem

For this to be interesting, you should "edit" this sandbox page which holds the description of the form.

The fields are described here:
http://sandbox.jspwiki.org/Wiki.jsp?page=WikiForms

Now - It seems to me that something similarly simple in our web2py template language, some standard could be useful to setup easy layout of custom forms.   The basic ideas are in the links I show.  Users from this group can talk through specifying what things to setup, and we can define a simple interface for custom forms.

This might be just enough, and just the sort of thing people have been asking for.   We would probably want to consider plain-html interface, json interface, and perhaps amf interface.  If the idioms were the same, I think this would be nice.

What do others think?

- Yarko

mdipierro

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Jun 28, 2009, 11:38:27 PM6/28/09
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Page 72 of the slides in web2py.com. It maps one to one.

Massimo

On Jun 28, 10:21 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That would be one thing....
>
> I saw this today, a form defined in "wikiform" -http://sandbox.jspwiki.org/Wiki.jsp?page=BugReportSystem
>
> For this to be interesting, you should "edit" this sandbox page which holds
> the description of the form.
>
> The fields are described here:http://sandbox.jspwiki.org/Wiki.jsp?page=WikiForms
>
> Now - It seems to me that something similarly simple in our web2py template
> language, some standard could be useful to setup easy layout of custom
> forms.   The basic ideas are in the links I show.  Users from this group can
> talk through specifying what things to setup, and we can define a simple
> interface for custom forms.
>
> This might be just enough, and just the sort of thing people have been
> asking for.   We would probably want to consider plain-html interface, json
> interface, and perhaps amf interface.  If the idioms were the same, I think
> this would be nice.
>
> What do others think?
>
> - Yarko
>

Yarko Tymciurak

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Jun 29, 2009, 12:51:50 AM6/29/09
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hmmmm....  

I do not see it;  certainly not from slide 72 - in fact, I'm not sure what this slide tells me.
Perhaps there are things on this slide that are obvious to some, but not to others (?)

mdipierro

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Jun 29, 2009, 2:16:26 AM6/29/09
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WikiForm

[{FormOpen}] add your own wiki text in here
[{FormInput name="test"}]
[{Form element='submit' name='x' value='Update'}]
[{FormClose}]

web2py custom form (assuming a form object passed from the action):

{{=form.custom.begin}} add your own html text in here
{{=form.custom.widget.test}}
{{=form.custom.submit}}
{{=form.custom.end}}

To me they look the same with the exception that web2py needs the
preexisting "form" object to handle the form processing.
WikiForms do not deal with processing.


On Jun 28, 11:51 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hmmmm....
>
> I do not see it;  certainly not from slide 72 - in fact, I'm not sure what
> this slide tells me.
> Perhaps there are things on this slide that are obvious to some, but not to
> others (?)
>

annet

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Jun 29, 2009, 4:09:26 AM6/29/09
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I appreciate web2py as it is. In the past I worked with Adobe GoLive,
NetBeans, JDeveloper and ADF and Filemaker. Beautiful software, I
implemented use case after use case by simply dragging and dropping
components and clicking my way through dialog boxes. However, the
moment I wanted to adjust the generated code I was overwhelmed by the
amount of code the software had generated in different files.

Web2py is the first framework that allows me to implement my
application the way I designed it, my lack of Python knowledge is the
limit, not the framework. I love building my own views in html, css
and js keeping structure, style and action separated, something none
of these IDE's complied with.

I hope web2py will stay as 'clean' as it is, and not become another
'NetBeansese' IDE.


Annet.

Hans Donner

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Jun 29, 2009, 7:18:06 AM6/29/09
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fully agree with this.
However, the html views could perhaps be a bit more html and less python so most html tools could be used to build them and without needing much conversions. As indicated, how the java tapestry framework did this is very nice and we could perhaps borrow some ideas from them.

if youre less drag&drop and more source oriented, the current way is perfect and easy to learn.

ceej

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Jun 29, 2009, 9:47:13 AM6/29/09
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Hi there,

I would just like to say that, web2py is a python programming
framework not a designing one and it's a lot easier to use than most.
I can implement the greatest of design that any designer could dream
up with ease. I do not understand when you say "the html views could
perhaps bit more html and less python" because they are pure html/css
when rendered and using the html helpers you can add any ids/classes
you want which is what you need to integrate a design. (You can also
use any other python html template plugin out there with web2py like
genshi etc..).

I've also seen other threads where people are going on about jquery
and they want more integration/widgets for it etc... This is again
where I would like to say web2py is a python programming framework not
a javascript one. jQuery comes included yes but you can use any
javascript framework with web2py you want (I use extjs as well as
jquery), web2py has jquery included as I would like to call an example
and I think a lot of people get confused about that for some reason.

I feel if we stray to much from web2py being a "python programming
framework" we'll loose sight of what web2py was meant to be in the
first place which is an an "enterprise framework for agile development
of fast, secure and portable database-driven web-based applications.
Written and programmable in Python".

P.S. Thank you again Massimo for starting such a great python
framework! :D

Hans Donner

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Jun 29, 2009, 11:08:42 AM6/29/09
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Web2py must stay a python programming framework, and I love the ease
it porvides for a programmer. However, when I want to have great
looking pages re layout etc my design skills are a bit less. So I want
help from somebody who can do great stuff with html, css and jquery
stuff and they prefer tags and javescripts etc, and are less skilled
with python, the part we are great in (and web2py helps us too look
great). And the {{=<insert your favourite pythone code here>}} looks a
bit funny to them, and they cannot use it to generate mockups that we
can easily feed into our web2py app - esp if you have to do some
conversions back and forth.

Hence the reference to Tapestry, I'm not quite aware how things are
now, but when I worked with it they had both a good framework for the
programming part and allowed the html guys to work with tags that
their tools understand. So they could produce something like the very
simple:

<html>
<head>
<title>Tutorial: HelloWorld</title>
</head>
<body>
<p>The current data and time is: <strong><span jwcid="@Insert"
value="ognl:new java.util.Date()">June 26 2005</span></strong></p>
<p><a href="#" jwcid="@PageLink" page="Home">refresh</a></p>
</body>
</html>

The jwcid attributes makes the magic happens, where the html tags
become components that can have certain behaviour. In the example the
@insert will replace the mock value of "june 26 2005" with a realdate.
And yes, the @insert could perhaps be done by some javascript stuff
but that is some other discussion.


When they render the file, it looks good in their tool and gives a
sence of how the page will look like. When rendered with the framework
it looks even better, cause of all the dynamic stuff that happens and
data from the db is stuffed into that template.

The current custum forms are rendered with

{{=form.custom.begin}}
{{=form.custom.widget.somefield}}
{{=form.custom.end}}

rendering is nice when run in web2py, but doesn't look like html
anywhere else. This might be more html-friendlier for the source:

<form web2py="form.custom.begin">
<input type="text" web2py="form.custom.widget.somefield">
</form>

(the form.custom.end is implied by the closing form tag linked to
form.custom.begin, and if the widget for somefiled is say a radiobox,
it will replace the current used text input tag)

This way also tables with specific rendering can be made, making use
of the power of the framework to make it into the live site and by
allowing mock data in the html files so the designer will have some
feeling how it looks like.

This is not a must, more something I saw somewhere else and what i
liked. For me this does not make web2py into something different what
it is and/or what it should be. It may even be a plugin or so for
web2py.

mdipierro

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Jun 29, 2009, 11:17:59 AM6/29/09
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It is a different philosophy. This seems more in line with the Kid/
Genshi template language than the web2py template language.

Massimo

Speedbird

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Jun 29, 2009, 11:20:24 AM6/29/09
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Excellent reply IMHO, I've been "slightly" slapped in the wrist on
previous posts when I talked about separation of logic and
presentation, a very subjective topic if you will, since where to
define that "fine line" in presentation vs logic implementation for
one thing..

I'd rather have a UI designer give me a mock up that I can write my
code for it, I respectfully think Massimo is spending way too much
time in this so called html helpers which already exists in the HTML
world, for instance, I'd rather have in my VIEW something like this:

<form method="post" action="">
<input type="hidden" id="foo" name="foo"
value="{{=request.vars.baz}}" />
...
<input type="text" id="eenie" name="meenie" value="{{=request.vars.get
('moe', '')}}" />
..
</form>

And have the underlying logic to handle my variables in my
controller..

Than to do a single VIEW with nothing on it but a {{=form}} and have
my pyhon code generate the html/markup for me

I believe the OP was leaning towards this scenario, they appear to
want to have an "Export yo web2Py" plug (which will internally create
a controller rather than a view) this hypothetical controller would
have all the code to in turn have web2py generate the markup for, I
personally like to have all my back-end done first, and then add it a
presentation layer on it, however a mock up will never hurts I have to
admit.

My application, pyforym, follows this specific pattern, I do not have
any html helpers in the controller nor I need to put them there, As an
example: I've already offset some UI work to a very good friend in
Australia and he made some changes to the UI (view) which did not
impact my code (controller) at all, yes, as I said again, this is a
"perspective" thing, but in 11+ years coding (hands-on) for a living
(in python in fact) I can tell you that it works and it is effective.

Will I trash talk or put down the logic/presentation mix up pattern?,
no way, programming in web2py is an "art" and one is entitled to use
all the tools that it provides, one thing is for sure, I'd continue to
advocate foe using this excellent framework whenever possible. cheers!

Julio

Peterle

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Jun 29, 2009, 10:55:50 AM6/29/09
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I think I have understood:
for a graphic-people point of view, it is normal "opening" a html
file with dreamweaver and change it. Graphic-guys here wanted,
probably, "open" web2py files inside Dreamweaver, like a normal
project of Dreamweaver, to change his graphical aspect, only that.

This is not easy to do with files taken from dynamic websites...
then...

--------------------

JohnMc

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Jun 29, 2009, 11:51:04 AM6/29/09
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ceej makes the right observation. Web2Py is a great backend
development platform. I would also second Annet's observations that
Web2Py not get all 'fuzzy' with WYSIWYG. So maybe it is time for
Web2Py to think about the next step -- third party ecology. jQuery for
example is great on its own. But it is fantastic with all the plug-ins
that are available for it.

Thinking along those lines in concert with this thread I could see
possibilities --

a) An addition to SQLForm that all it does is render out the specifics
of the id and class names for the label, fields and col3 without the
surrounding TABLE scaffolding to an output file. The specifics of the
id, class naming is defined in a given specification (pretty much
there).

b) That the Web2Py developer can for any given function in a
controller specify a custom html rendering. If not so specified then
the default <def>.html be utilized. Maybe like

return dict(data=data, html='custom.html')

Web2Py changes only marginally. Using the specifications for the
output file some enterprising soul could develop an third party tool
to do html design work or modify an existing one.

JohnMc

Yarko Tymciurak

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Jun 29, 2009, 12:02:51 PM6/29/09
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I agree w/ Massimo here -

It "feels" like all are jumping into solutions and tools and implementations...

What I want to "nail" is the problem, and what (WHAT) we are talking about, would like to do,
and what makes sense and is web2py-ish, pythonic...

So - Hans makes this very good point:
- to use professional graphic artists, we need a clean way to interface with them.
   -- Hans makes suggestions on how things should look, before identifying the problem, and how to approach it.
   -- I think the problem (as stated) is "how to give a graphic artist an application template which he can work with and see results as he works....

This is where the "no installation" of web2py is really great, but now:   how do you best prepare a VIEW template of YOUR CURRENT APP for that professional graphic designer, and how do you tell him to work with it so that you can use the results.

That (I think) is the problem statement.
I'm not clear what the specific requirements are.

I do NOT think html into the views is necessarily the "correct" or desireable solution.

mdipierro

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Jun 29, 2009, 12:14:33 PM6/29/09
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> b) That the Web2Py developer can for any given function in a
> controller specify a custom html rendering. If not so specified then
> the default <def>.html be utilized. Maybe like
>
> return dict(data=data, html='custom.html')
>

this can be achieved by

response.view='custom.html'
return dict(data=data)

or

return response.render('custom.html',data=data)

the second i better because it is cachable.

Yarko Tymciurak

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Jun 29, 2009, 12:21:48 PM6/29/09
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I think Julio / speedbird makes a good observation about granularity (e.g. {{=form}} is too coupled to controller), but I think goes - similarly to Hans - off into solution (and perhaps too far the other end of the spectrum).

I still at some level agree w/ Massimo:

Tags / format that looks like:

{{=form.custom.begin}}
{{=form.custom.widget.somefield}}
{{=form.custom.end}}


looks consistent, allows separation of logic and presentation in a clean, concise, and readable way, and gets away from the overly-coupled design effect of {{=form}}  (which is fine, I think, for default rendering behaviors).  The reason to have this in view / template code - as in the lines above - rather than customizing the default behavior of {{=form}} somewhere in code is, among other reasons, precisely because you need to be able to have graphic professionals at some point work with you.

My point of bringing out the wikiForm stuff is that it (for me, at least) raised some interesting points - e.g. setting defaults about the form all with the form definition (albeit in wikiForms, the variable names and default values are "all there with the form).
 - I want to know how, in one place in the single controller, I would update the field default values;  combine say fields from 2 tables, and add non-databacked parts all to one form.  I also want to take the idiom from wikiForms, and ask what is the best way to define / set VIEW-like defaults within the pattern which Massimo showed here.

For example:  Massimo shows how WikiForms and view template are same;  I have said wikiForms put data / logic defaults _with_ form definition, and I do NOT want to do that - BUT I want to take the example, and ask "how do I put  (???) div-defaults to Massimo's template example so that the graphic designer can layout some (????) CSS, and I can assign, or modify them in Massimo's structure "like" wikiForms does (but I want to do it with presentation aspects, not data/logic aspects, as default values, behaviors I want to keep in the widget / controller).

Does this make sense?

I am REALLY less concerned w/ gui or tools or setup - I want cleanliness of description so that others may work with me, and so that I can get precisely the results I want, with least possible complexity (but no less).

Web2py has been great for compact expression, and default behaviors. I think when sitting with paying clients who want something specific, and working with their art departments etc. we need to look at what can we do to make that interaction with those collaborators as easy.

Regards,
Yarko

Hans Donner

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Jun 29, 2009, 1:48:04 PM6/29/09
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hi guys,

the temperature outside is high enough, so lets try to stay cool here. :-)

for the moment i'm fine with what i can do with web2py, how the framework is worked on (frequent updates etc). The latter is why i'm using it.

I've seen various frameworks, with parts i do not like and stuff that i liked, as with the tapestry templating. That does not mean that it must also be present in web2py, but looking into
these kind of differences gives me better insights.

Questions like he ones Yarko raises are important, and should be raised and answered before development.

For now I consider this as an exhange of ideas and experiences that perhaps may become a request for some change, or not.

So to continue on trying to define the problem, I think there is
a second part as well: does the app (logic) follows from the screens, vice versa, or...
In some cases I start with a rough mockup in html to get some feeling for what I need, frequently using html snippets I found somewhere.

mdipierro

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Jun 29, 2009, 2:09:32 PM6/29/09
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I think have multiple levels of forms

Highest Level

{{=form}}

Intermediate Level

{{=form.custom.begin}}
<b>{{=form.custom.labels.somefield<b>
<div class="whatever">{{=form.custom.widget.somefield}}</div>
{{=form.custom.submit}}
{{=form.custom.end}}

Lowest level

{{=BEAUTIFY(form.errors) #optional}}

<form action="{{=form['_action']}}" method="{{=form['_method']'}}">
<label>{{=form.custom.labels.somefield}}</label>
<div class="whatever"><intput name="somefield"
id={{=form.custom.widget.somefield['_id']}}"
class={{=form.custom.widget.somefield['_class']}}"
value={{=form.custom.widget.somefield['_value']}}"
/></div>
<input type="submit" .>
{{=form.hidden_fields() #optional}}
</form>

Widgets are objects so you can dissect them as you like and get their
elements/components/attributes. Of course if you do that then your
custom form becomes very dependent to the details of the form and it
will not be easy to change it.

Massimo

mdipierro

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Jun 29, 2009, 2:12:16 PM6/29/09
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Tow more cents. This is what I normally do:

Place {{=form}} in the html. Save the generated html from the
browser.
Customize the form using a tool. replace the hidden fields with
{{=form.hidden_fields()}}.
Replace the value="...." with value="{{=form.impval.field}}"
Save it back into the view.

In this way I only need to manipulate the html.

Francois (Jersey)

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Jun 29, 2009, 5:46:03 PM6/29/09
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Would it be possible to add an example of more complex form on the
web2py website, as it may be a way of answering lots of queries?

On my side, I was asking myself the same question and was trying to do
a complex form using a bit of javascript (Jscript?).

Like lots of new user of Web2py, I find it fabulous and very
productive, but I would like also to tailor my form, but without going
into the complexity of kids/genshi.

Any chance for a tutorial.

For example, what I am working on is the following form:


Dr/Cr account n# account name Debit Credit Currency
Debit Credit Functional currency [+] (10) [-] (11)
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [+] (10) [-] (11)
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [+] (10) [-] (11)
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [+] (10) [-] (11)
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [+] (10) [-] (11)
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
[ ] [+] (10) [-] (11)
(1) (2) (3) (4)
(5) (6) (7) (8) (9)


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(1) Dr or Cr. Not user selected. Appears once the user insert a figure
in colum (4) or (5). If there is a number in column (4) then (1) is
equal to Dr. If there is a figure in column (5) then column (1) is
equal to Cr.

(2) account number selected from a drop downlist and the drop down
list also show the account name

(3) selected by drop down from 2

(4) numeric value. if figure in 4, then (5) can not be selected
(becomes grey) and (1) becomes Dr

(5) numeric value. if figure in 5 then (4) can not be selected
(becomes grey) and (1) becomes Cr

(6) currency code selected from drop down list

(7) and (8) figures are equal to (4) or (5) multiplied by an exchange
rate

(9) figures can not be selected given by the system

(10) create a new line below

(11) delete line


Do you think it is possible to do with Web2py?

Francois

JohnMc

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Jun 29, 2009, 6:14:40 PM6/29/09
to web2py Web Framework
Massimo,

"return response.render('custom.html',data=data) "

Wow, learn something new every week. That kills my (2) observation.
Thanks.

I do however think Web2Py would grow faster still if it could foster
plug-ins with design editors and report generation tools as well.

Francois (Jersey)

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Jun 30, 2009, 1:27:11 AM6/30/09
to web2py Web Framework

An example of "return response.render('custom.html',data=data) " would
be useful on the web2py website.

Fabulous framework.

AchipA

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Jun 30, 2009, 7:17:09 AM6/30/09
to web2py Web Framework
Just to re-float some old ideas...

http://groups.google.com/group/web2py/browse_thread/thread/99afdeb834f39d02/74f564e0fe130ec9?lnk=gst&q=formify#74f564e0fe130ec9

This approach was 'invented' to completely separate the view from any
helper funk that goes on in the controllers, thereby giving designers
(using just about any tool) the freedom to design their forms as they
wish given they comply with some naming conventions/id's.

greenpoise

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Jun 30, 2009, 9:51:28 AM6/30/09
to web2py Web Framework
Wait. Am I missing something here? Due to the fact I have been very
busy, I have left my hobby (web2py) aside for a bit. I still check the
group
very often. Isnt CSS suppose to be one thing and development another?
and the ability to integrate css to any web development environment
depends solely on the designer/team to do so? I mean, we are talking
python for programming, css/html for layout design and postgres and
whatever db tool for backend. First thing that comes into mind (with
my
limited experience with web dev) is that doing it all including the
designer stuff
you prototype the layout in photoshop/illustrator and do the
programming elsewhere.
That dreamweaver does not support web2py is another thing. I have
tried to
find flaws in web2py but I firmly believe that it is soooo incredibly
well thought
that I have not been able to find one. Yea bugs will exist but the
logic of it all
is perfect, it is a facilitator. All the other knowledge depends on
the programmer
and designer. My best advice to the starter of this post is to try
firefox webdeveloper
addons instead of using dreamweaver which is obviously making things
more
confusing for you.

On Jun 30, 7:17 am, AchipA <attila.cs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to re-float some old ideas...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/web2py/browse_thread/thread/99afdeb834...

mdipierro

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Jun 30, 2009, 10:07:04 AM6/30/09
to web2py Web Framework
There is an example under caching examples

On Jun 30, 12:27 am, "Francois (Jersey)"

mdipierro

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Jun 30, 2009, 10:10:23 AM6/30/09
to web2py Web Framework
I need to see an example of what you have in mind

On Jun 30, 6:17 am, AchipA <attila.cs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to re-float some old ideas...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/web2py/browse_thread/thread/99afdeb834...

JohnMc

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Jun 30, 2009, 5:14:25 PM6/30/09
to web2py Web Framework
AchipA,

formify is close to how I deal with customization only manually.
Designers I have dealt with are expecting to work with <div> and
<span> elements and manipulate css to match their needs. Having a tool
similar in concept to SQLFORM that output <div>, <span> formatting
instead would be a nice to have. Maybe even take it up a notch to
generate the 'default' custom css file for the designer to manipulate.
95% of the time how SQLForm formats the fields is exactly right. In
which case the underlying how does not matter. That other 5% generally
do consider the how important to the presentation.

It would push Web2Py a bit higher than CakePHP and Django.

On Jun 30, 6:17 am, AchipA <attila.cs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to re-float some old ideas...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/web2py/browse_thread/thread/99afdeb834...
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