web2py foundation

[Wes James]

Massimo,

You may need to do something like the plone people did:

http://plone.org/foundation

They created a foundation to "... protect and promote Plone"

There is plone.org and plone.net, but plone.com is taken by someone
else. I'm not sure why plone.org people did not take it. Maybe they
were too late in getting it or did't care.

I have used plone for a few years now to host some college library
content. I originally hosted this content with some web apps created
with perl/postgres. I was looking around at frameworks to redo a
scholarship application done in perl/postgres. I had looked at
django and then stumbled on web2py. For me web2py has been wonderful
compared to trying to figure out plone and I like it better than
django, php, etc.... After I get this scholarship app out of the way,
I'm thinking about moving the plone sites over to web2py. One site is
a slide (scanned slides) repository. One is a library collections site
(books, theses, etc.) and and another is a duplicate books repository.

One strong point about plone is it's search capability. I have not
delved that deep in to web2py to see how it can search, but I'm sure
it is pretty good with sqlite and probably very good with postgres in
the back end.

Keep up the good work.

-wj

[Yarko T]

Plone.com  is owned by Steve Plone of California --- I'll bet he actually had the "name" first ;-)

(BTW, it's an interetsting site)

[mdipierro]

Actually I was thinking about something similar but also different.

I want to create an association of users, not a foundation. The
purpose of the association would be:

1) promote the use of free software in general (not just web2py)
2) select the best open software that works with web2py (cherokee,
linux, postgresql, etc.)
3) certify members as experts in web2py and in those other software
technologies selected by the members
4) provide a portal where members (and member companies) can host
their profile and be contacted
5) help members work together to compete with large consulting
companies for jobs.
6) help members with legal issues when dealing with clients
7) maintain a database of projects completed by the members and
accessible to members only

I want us to compete with this:

http://www-935.ibm.com/services/us/gbs/bus/html/bcs_index.html

not with Plone or other small Python projects.

Think about it. There are more than 600 people on this list, growing
exponentially. We already distributed all over the world. We are all
very skilled people. We are unified by the love for the same
technologies. We do have a better product than the competition. We
only need more organization. Why do we need an employer? In
manufacturing there is a need for capital in order to buy the "means
of production". Thus investors provide capital and get shares of the
revenue in return. We do not need "means of production", we have
laptops, we do not need an office, we do not need investments, and we
do not need to share our profit. We just need to be recognized as
leaders in our field and attract clients. I think we can do that.

Who is in?

There are legal issues to be resolved. The web site will be up soon
for people to sign up, take a quiz, and become members.

Massimo

[Daniel Contag]

A truly interesting proposal, Massimo!
You, clearly, are thinking ahead.



Daniel

[vihang]

I think it would work !

On Nov 15, 1:10 am, "Daniel Contag" <con...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A truly interesting proposal, Massimo!
> You, clearly, are thinking ahead.
>
> Daniel
>

[cesmiga]

Massimo,

I look forward to hearing more about this. The idea is very exciting.

Christopher

[Baron]

this is all fascinating Massimo.

So membership will be based on passing a technical quiz. Do you think
this a sufficient barrier to entry to ensure quality in the community?

If this community successfully bid for a project, how would they split
revenue? Proportion of hours worked / features implemented?

Baron

[Baron]

Recently I got an email from a Django project who were following this
kind of profit sharing model, but it sounded too pie in the sky so I
backed off:
"""
Hello,

You get this email because I felt that you might be a good Python
developer and maybe interested in working with us on a project.

This is the project: http://www.slideshare.net/eikepost/presentation-potencio-presentation
It is a Django based project. We work on the project in a distributed
open source manner. Each programmer contributes 20 - 30 hours each
week. Programmers are spread out in Italy, Spain, UK and India. We
chat via skype and basecamp. The project is advancing a little slowly
so we are looking to get one or more programmer on the team. So if you
are not only agood but an excellent developer, who is a tam player,
motivated, willing to take responsibility and available for at least
25 hours then probably would be interested in including you on the
team.

We also aim to set up an office and unite once we get financing. The
server costs of the project are being born by me currently but there
is no other expense. It is a commercial project in the sense that the
goal is to get financing and eventually make profit or sell the
project. We currently have 250,000 registered members and a certain
percentage of that in Australia

Thus we think we will get financing very soon. The company is owned by
all team members in relation to their contribution. Thus if for
example you contribute 25% of the total effort then you own 25%. In
other words we determine ownership by individual contribution/total
contribution. So for example of Adrian for example work 20 hours and
is paid $3000 every month in shares as individual contribution and
total contribution is $15,000 then he gets 1/5 that months.

Eike

[mdipierro]

Our model will be different.
that is email is asking you to work for free in the hope a future
compensation. I would not ask anybody that.

I am thinking of an association. You go and find your own consulting
jobs. You get paid and keep all the money. The association helps in
legal issues by sharing copies of previous contracts among members. It
help you by giving you a certification. It helps you by giving
documents about good practice that you can share with your clients. It
helps you answer questions from your clients like "who maintains this
if you get hit by a track" or "how many people work for your company"
or "what is your previous experience". The association gives you a web
presence. It helps network with other members to bid for bigger jobs.
It helps look very professional! The Association will not ask you any
money but it will ask you to sign an ethics code and will kick you out
if you do not abide. Members will write the ethics code and the
policies and procedures. If the association finds a job for you, the
association will keep a percentage. The test to get in will not be
easy but the association will provide a study guide.

These are all preliminary ideas since I am hoping to hear more
comments and opinions about it.

Massimo

[carlo]

I am for it, my little owned company will be trying to enroll for sure
carlo

[achipa]

Massimo, all that can still fit into the foundation approach, in fact,
I don't really see (apart from focus and/or emphasis) how is it
different from what, say, OSGEO does. Apart from all the tech and
managing aspect, it also has a consulting facet, see http://www.osgeo.org/search_profile
The point is that it's just called a foundation as it's not profit
oriented but rather a common ground and safe haven for all interested
parties. You can call the same thing an association, but I believe
there might be some legal implications with regard to what category
you go into.

[Phyo Arkar]

Dear All;

I cannot participate in this thread yet , i am very excited about this but ahh , so busy . I will b contributing my ideas soon!

Regards,

Phyo Arkar Lwin
*Nix Solutions.

[Vidul Petrov]

Hi Massimo,

Splendid idea! I am in.

This project will encourage more and more newcomers (I have no doubt).

Vidul

[Yarko Tymciurak]

Two points:

-  I think Massimo's point of wanting an association is to encourage more people to take web2py seriously, and associate and differentiate skilled developers;

-  It's not just about web2py;

I believe that is accurate.

Regards,

Yarko

[achipa]

Please take a look at OSGeo. If you have companies like Autodesk
joining in, you can't say it's not being taken seriously. Also, OSGeo
has a far broader reach as it has half a dozen very different projects
under it's umbrella and at least as much in incubation. With regard to
differentiating developers, mixed emotions there. For a freelancer, I
understand, but how do you assess (and maintain your assessment) of
companies (especially if web2py is just an element in their
operations). How do you protect web2py from copyright pollution, or
prevent having misbehaving members ? While there is only (in global
terms) a handful of people highly skilled in web2py (a very nice
community, one of the greatest - if not The greatest - asset web2py
has). However, how will this look like if one day we will have
thousands or maybe tens of thousands of people and companies working
in the web2py milieu ? Not nearly an easy topic. I somehow perceive
the association would be to a foundation what a confederacy would be
to the United Nations, but that's probably a bad comparison because of
the political conotations one might see there. I don't want to be the
devils advocate, I just want to see and understand the difference in
motivation and perception of the two terms/approaches. Most
explanations I got so far indicated more that people are not overly
informed how modern open source foundations look like and what their
goals are. I would really hate to see something like the OpenDWG
alliance ( http://www.opendwg.org/ ) coming to life, which, while
originally a noble cause and good idea, gradually turned more and more
into something I'm not too fond of and just stick around because I
have to. Ending rant :)

On Nov 17, 4:37 pm, "Yarko Tymciurak" <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Two points:
> -  I think Massimo's point of wanting an association is to encourage more
> people to take web2py seriously, and associate and differentiate skilled
> developers;
> -  It's not just about web2py;
>
> I believe that is accurate.
> Regards,
> Yarko
>

[BBi]

On 14 nov, 22:01, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:

> I want to create an association of users, not a foundation. The
> purpose of the association would be:
>
> 1) promote the use of free software in general (not just web2py)

I'm certainly in for an association aboutweb2py. However, promoting
the use of free software in general as #1 purpose seems to me a much
too broad focus for such an association. Free software is already
promoted by a lot of people and organizations, and we won't do a
better job in general. We will do a better job for web2py.

> 2) select the best open software that works with web2py (cherokee,
> linux, postgresql, etc.)

ok

> 3) certify members as experts in web2py and in those other software
> technologies selected by the members

IMHO, certification should be an option for members, not mandatory. We
may need also sales people and marketing people, not only technical
people.

> 4) provide a portal where members (and member companies) can host
> their profile and be contacted
> 5) help members work together to compete with large consulting
> companies for jobs.

> 6) help members with legal issues when dealing with clients

This one is very difficult on a global basis.

> 7) maintain a database of projects completed by the members and
> accessible to members only

8) and success stories accessible to everybody on the planet


Bruno

[mdipierro]

Companies are members if employees of the company pass the
certification and if they ask to be listed.

I am thinking of certifying web2py but also debian/ubuntu, postgresql,
apache, cherokee, and other programs considered to be high quality and
relevant by the members. I also want to certify quality and workflow.

I am not thinking of an incubator for new software. We do not need it.
I am thinking of an umbrella that can make members act as a part of a
larger entity not just as individuals consultants/companies, even if
they will be compensated as individual consultants/companies.

I am trying to alleviate the burned to convince clients to hire you by
giving the tools to sell what you do better.

Ideally I want to build something that works as close as possible as a
real international consulting company but without a base salary,
leaving members greater independence and all the revenues of their
work.

Massimo

On Nov 17, 12:52 pm, achipa <attila.cs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please take a look at OSGeo. If you have companies like Autodesk
> joining in, you can't say it's not being taken seriously. Also, OSGeo
> has a far broader reach as it has half a dozen very different projects
> under it's umbrella and at least as much in incubation. With regard to
> differentiating developers, mixed emotions there. For a freelancer, I
> understand, but how do you assess (and maintain your assessment) of
> companies (especially if web2py is just an element in their
> operations). How do you protect web2py from copyright pollution, or
> prevent having misbehaving members ? While there is only (in global
> terms) a handful of people highly skilled in web2py (a very nice
> community, one of the greatest - if not The greatest - asset web2py
> has). However, how will this look like if one day we will have
> thousands or maybe tens of thousands of people and companies working
> in the web2py milieu ? Not nearly an easy topic. I somehow perceive
> the association would be to a foundation what a confederacy would be
> to the United Nations, but that's probably a bad comparison because of
> the political conotations one might see there. I don't want to be the
> devils advocate, I just want to see and understand the difference in
> motivation and perception of the two terms/approaches. Most
> explanations I got so far indicated more that people are not overly
> informed how modern open source foundations look like and what their
> goals are. I would really hate to see something like the OpenDWG

> alliance (http://www.opendwg.org/) coming to life, which, while

[achipa]

Some terminology note (this is what I mean when I say foundations are
a gray area for many here): in OSS foundation lingo, incubator status
is for projects or software that wants to join, but has not yet
fulfilled or agreed on all the criteria required by the foundation
(either technically or management-wise). It has nothing to do with
size or how old or new it is (you don't get much bigger than Mapserver
in the OSS web mapping arena - and it's still in incubation at OSGeo).
A sort of like membership candidate for the EU. It doesn't mean you're
worth smaller or have less history than other members, but rather that
you made that commitment recently and are working on synching your
internals to the standards of the umbrella organization.

Massimo's clarification describes something larger, though. Certifying
for Apache or other high caliber software is serious business. I still
say it would be good to have something like the apache or osgeo
foundation for web2py *exclusively* so it could deal with anything
that is strictly web2py related, AND still have an umbrella consulting
oriented organization on top of that (if you mention IBM - besides
it's consultancy work, it is a prominent member of the Linux, Apache
and many other OSS foundations, and that's a double benefit - for IBM
it's good to be close to the community, and for the community it's
good to have companies of such magnitude backing them up). Same goes
for Novell, HP, Intel and many others.

[billf]

tbh I have been sitting on my hands for a while but a few other posts
have touched on some of the real difficulties so I hope I will not
been seen as the only negative/questioning voice. I start from the
point that I think the aims are wonderful. But...

To begin with, most of the aims of sharing and co-operation can be met
by an enhanced version of what we have now - although subjects like
providing the best contracts would probably be best served by an
organisation of freelance consultants without any bias to a particular
product/platform.

To me, the key problem is maintaining the value of the brand (for want
of a better phrase) which is of course the same as the standard of the
members/associates. The idea of a one-off test doesn't work for me:
it would have to be remote so how do you know who completed the test?
Some companies do nothing but run certification courses world-wide -
it is not an insignificant task.

If you want to "add value to the brand", you want to set the bar quite
high so that clients know you've got to be good to get in.

The best idea(s) I have seen so far is achipa's combination of
"incubation and candidate status" where standards of people are
measured continually over time by measuring contribution/product and
there is a multi-level membership - perhaps associate, contributor,
consultant, partner/board member(?) (lowest to highest). I suppose
this is how people become core developers of open-source projects.
Even so, how do I prove my latest project is ground-breaking and
professional if my client swears me to secrecy to preserve
intellectual property?

Do you link the foundation strongly to web2py? For: it is common
ground, it differentiates from other groups. Against: the success is
linked to the success of web2py (if web2py's fortunes fade then an
otherwise successful venture could be tarnished?), it could appear too
narrow (include lots of other products and you lose the
differentiation).

It's a great idea - I want in - but I think there are obstacles to be
overcome.

> > > > > > Massimo- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -