Future of web2py

[Andrea Fae']

Hello guys,

I'd like to know if there will be future of web2py? Any information about it?

Thanks

[António Ramos]

The future is not available at this time.. so please enjoy the present.

We may no even exist in the future so why ask for web2py future before our selves future. ?

I need to sleep... and dream ... web3py .. web3py ...

--
Resources:
- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[Relsi Maron]

Hi Andrea,

Yes, there will be a future for web2py!

Web2py will remain being what it is. :)

A new version, with support for Python 3, is about to come. Even though Massimo is developing a new framework, Web2py will continue to exist - with the same purpose for which it was created: to teach development.

Cheers.

[Ron Chatterjee]

How different web3py will be as opposed to web2py? Big learning curve or very similar? Can someone upload a w2p file and convert into w3p with few changes?

[Oasis Agano]

Is the new framework web3py if so when is the official launch?

[Massimo Di Pierro]

My plan is this....

It is based on bottle + gevent + gunicorn + rethinkdb + pydal + vue.js + 

some code ported from web2py (templates, helpers, validators, internationalization, scheduler)

Unlike web2py it uses modules not execfile and this makes it 10x faster (this part is done) and code it no longer interpreted at every request. Only on change.

Routes are declared using decorators like in bottle and flask.

It will use rethinkdb for storing errors, sessions, and anything user defined. This allows to scale horizontally. Nothing gets stored on the file system any more. Ever. Unless you choose to use sqlite for your app.

No more forms and grids generated server side. Possible and will probably backport SQLFrom and Gid but will discourage it. The default client will be in vue.js. The forms and grids will be generated client-side based on self-documenting APIs. This work must be done. It is not terribly hard just pedantic.

It has a redesigned admin. Not necessarily better but leaner. This part is also done although it may need restyling.

I am ditching a lot of the web2py auth logic. Nobody really uses groups and permissions and the way it is done may not be the best way for everybody. Instead I will default to auth0 integration.

From a developer prospective the code will look very similar and I will be able to recycle 90% of the documentation.

The problems are that web2py grew a bit bloated and typical programming patterns have shifted from postbacks to single page apps with form submission via API. Also web2py does not provide enough tools for scaling since uses filesystem by default. The new version will do less then current web2py but will remedy those issues and make it easier to make responsive and scalable apps.

I am conflicted. I could use help to get this done quicker but I do not want to post something that is half done people are unhappy with. What I would like may not be what everybody likes but I am mostly building this in a way that would work well for myself and share in the hope it is useful to others. BSD license.

If you are willing to help before the code is made public feel free to contact me personally.

Massimo

[Karoly Kantor]

Hello Massimo,

Overall, what do your plans exactly mean for people with an existing app on web2py? Is this a brand new and different framework or is there an upgrade path?

Thanks.

[Marlysson Silva]

Could you put this thoughts about web2py's future in some place to community? In issues , documentation , topic discussion ..

So the community would know what have to do and could suggest more enhancements ..

Because the people stay waiting by some programmers to develop some features of framework..  and showing to others programmers and discussing, they could help.

Em terça-feira, 30 de maio de 2017 07:38:23 UTC-3, Karoly Kantor escreveu:

Hello Massimo, May I have two questions on this?

1. You say current web2py interprets code on every request. What does this mean on Google App Engine? (Every time I deploy, GAE seems to compile...)

2. Overall, what do your plans exactly mean for people with an existing app on web2py? Is this a brand new and different framework or is there an upgrade path?

Thanks.

[Ron Chatterjee]

Massimo, Do you see its better to do incremental changes to web2py that leads us to web3py at some point than to a completely new framework which may be lot of work and it will take monumental effort to fix all the bugs it may have.Just some thoughts...

[Dave S]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 5:11:49 PM UTC-7, Ron Chatterjee wrote:

Massimo, Do you see its better to do incremental changes to web2py that leads us to web3py at some point than to a completely new framework which may be lot of work and it will take monumental effort to fix all the bugs it may have.Just some thoughts...

 

Isn't he doing a parallel effort (with a few helpers)?  Much python3 work has found it's way into web2py, and some of that has been used for web3py, and conversely some of the web3py work has been backported.

From what I've seen, it's not EXCLUSIVE-OR.

/dps

[António Ramos]

To Massimo... 

maybe we can have something like this in future web2py versions...

https://tg.pl/drab

[Marlysson Silva]

What do you think about weppy?
It is based in web2py and have some thoughts interests

[Oasis Agano]

But web2py is still maintained right? or we start buying flask books

[Pierre]

weppy
the web framework for humans


sounds good ?


frigolux
the refrigerator for polar bears

[Marlysson Silva]

o.O

[eric cuver]

lol

[Dave S]

On Wednesday, May 31, 2017 at 2:51:54 AM UTC-7, Ramos wrote:

To Massimo... 

maybe we can have something like this in future web2py versions...

https://tg.pl/drab

Is this particularly different from stupid.css, already include in the applications/examples in 2.14.6?

/dps
 

2017-05-31 2:08 GMT+01:00 Dave S <snide...@gmail.com>:

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 5:11:49 PM UTC-7, Ron Chatterjee wrote:

Massimo, Do you see its better to do incremental changes to web2py that leads us to web3py at some point than to a completely new framework which may be lot of work and it will take monumental effort to fix all the bugs it may have.Just some thoughts...

 

Isn't he doing a parallel effort (with a few helpers)?  Much python3 work has found it's way into web2py, and some of that has been used for web3py, and conversely some of the web3py work has been backported.

From what I've seen, it's not EXCLUSIVE-OR.

/dps

--
Resources:
- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[Massimo Di Pierro]

OK course it is still maintained.... why do you ask?

[Ron Chatterjee]

apologies for ignorance on this topic but can this be a temporary fix to see how much benefits web2py will have prior to go with full web3py features?

https://docs.python.org/2/library/2to3.html

[Muhammad Hashim Malik]

Respected Massimo

You base idea of web3py is fantastic. Please share your web3py work. At least release its beta version, so that people play with it , be get acquaintance with it and positive feedback may be available so that direction of the web3py project may be in right direction. People like me are frustrated waiting web3py release. Please release it as soon as possible.

Truly,

Malik Muhammad Hashim

[João Gulineli]

+1

Livre de vírus. www.avast.com.

João Henrique Gulineli Fachini;
Cel: 18 - 8107 8499

--

Resources:
- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[tesser...@gmail.com]

According to github, there were semi-regular releases going back to 2013, then they stopped about a year ago, so I guess it's only natural for people to wonder about the status of the project. Personally, I'm wondering if the project will continue to build production releases in the future. I see that master still gets some love, so maybe master is now stable for production and I missed it?

Anyhow, thank you for all your work on this framework. I admire the project itself and I think the community speaks for its integrity. I read your post earlier in this thread on your plans for web3py, and I thought I would say that as a web2py user, I loved how it gave me a current version of a few nice libraries and flattened web development into a single Python layer. Basically it gave me a mostly pre-built good-enough web interface and let me get on with the business of developing services for users.

Your web3py post concedes that the days of the flat development stack are over, and I agree it's unavoidable to use some of the newer JS components and move a lot of the work to the browser. I haven't checked out the stack you've listed in your reply yet, but I'll very likely end up using whatever you put together because I want to keep using helpers, validators and the DAL. I look forward to the day the lineup is stable enough for release, and thanks again for your past work on web2py.

[Ron Chatterjee]

Can we have something intermediate to help with the speed meanwhile? I am guessing speed will be the only motivation to consider in going from pathon 2 to python 3.

[Anthony]

On Thursday, June 8, 2017 at 10:14:19 AM UTC-4, Ron Chatterjee wrote:

Can we have something intermediate to help with the speed meanwhile?  I am guessing speed will be the only motivation to consider in going from pathon 2 to python 3.

Not sure what you mean. Are you talking about Python 2 vs. 3, or web2py vs. web3py? The coming release of web2py will support Python 3, but there won't be much difference in speed (no new architecture within the framework, so any speed difference will be due solely to general speed differences between Python 2 and 3). On the other hand, web3py will have a new architecture that will make it faster than web2py. I don't think there is any feasible intermediate option between the two.

Anthony

[Ron Chatterjee]

Rather than 3rd party packages available, I believe one of the most important criteria for any framework is the speed. How web3py compare to django, flask or other framework in terms of speed?

[Anthony]

On Friday, June 9, 2017 at 3:39:43 PM UTC-4, Ron Chatterjee wrote:

Rather than 3rd party packages available, I believe one of the most important criteria for any framework is the speed. How web3py compare to django, flask or other framework in terms of speed?

You said, "I am guessing speed will be the only motivation to consider in going from pathon 2 to python 3." How does that relate to third party packages and web3py vs. Django/Flask?

Anthony

[Ron Chatterjee]

No I am saying how fast web3py will be comparing django or flask?

[Ron Chatterjee]

I guess this is something massimo is proposing but this is already in use. Am I correct?

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/bottle-web2pydal/

[Massimo Di Pierro]

Speed depends on what the app does. Which template you use, which db, etc. In general the bottle neck of any app is the database.

That said most people like to benchmark on simple hello world apps without sessions and templates. In this case web2py does not do well. web3py will do as fast as Flask, faster than Django.

[Brendan Barnwell]

On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 8:16:38 PM UTC-7, tesser...@gmail.com wrote:

According to github, there were semi-regular releases going back to 2013, then they stopped about a year ago, so I guess it's only natural for people to wonder about the status of the project. Personally, I'm wondering if the project will continue to build production releases in the future. I see that master still gets some love, so maybe master is now stable for production and I missed it?

Anyhow, thank you for all your work on this framework. I admire the project itself and I think the community speaks for its integrity. I read your post earlier in this thread on your plans for web3py, and I thought I would say that as a web2py user, I loved how it gave me a current version of a few nice libraries and flattened web development into a single Python layer. Basically it gave me a mostly pre-built good-enough web interface and let me get on with the business of developing services for users.

I agree with this as well.  I haven't been using web2py too long, but one of the things I really like about it is how self-contained it is.  Many of the other frameworks involve layers of dependencies on all sorts of things that make it quite onerous to begin.  web2py shines in that regard.
 

Your web3py post concedes that the days of the flat development stack are over, and I agree it's unavoidable to use some of the newer JS components and move a lot of the work to the browser. I haven't checked out the stack you've listed in your reply yet, but I'll very likely end up using whatever you put together because I want to keep using helpers, validators and the DAL. I look forward to the day the lineup is stable enough for release, and thanks again for your past work on web2py.

I think it would be unfortunate for the "flat stack" to disappear entirely.  Hopefully a compromise can be reached in which web2py ships (or at least can ship) with a bundle of tested-and-verified-to-work-together dependencies allowing simple installation.

Just to add my own perspective on the web3py play Massimo outlined: in my experience, the main weaknesses in web2py are the "magicness" of the import/namespace model, and the lack of comprehensive client/server communication tools.  By the first I mean many of the things I've asked about (and been graciously helped with) over the past several months.  The way that web2py manipulates import paths, executes code per request, and populates namespaces automatically (e.g., making names defined in model code available in controllers) makes many things convenient.  However, the magic underlying this is not fully exposed, meaning that code reuse can become difficult if you stray outside the predefined magic boundaries.  It's difficult, for instance, to create modules that factor out db-centric code, because the db object (typically defined in a model file) won't be available; this forces you to reimplement the wheel to some extent by taking the db-creation code out of a plain model file and put it in a function --- which then breaks things like the db-admin tool.  Obviously these are complex issues, but in the end I think it would be ideal to find a way that makes simple things smooth without making more complex code interdependencies quite so painful.  (Importing rather than executing code may help in this regard.)

The second weakness is client/server communication.  The web2py view template model is great, so telling the client what you want to serve is easy.  The problem comes when you want more or less continuous back-and-forth communication between client and server.  Most of web2py's client/server communication model is based on forms, which require the entire page to be reloaded.  While I'm not super gung-ho for "single-page apps", I do think that it's essential to facilitate "incremental" or "modular" communication between individual page elements and the server.  A clear example is validation.  Web2py has an elaborate validation mechanism which is quite powerful, but the need to submit an actual form makes it rather ponderous for situations where you want a "form" as just part of a page.  For instance, if you have a login form as a small box in the corner of a content page, you really want stuff like email validation to happen without a page reload.  It still needs to talk to the server, but it should be doing it with per-item AJAX.  I do think, though, that this is something that could be added to the existing web2py without requiring a wholesale rewrite; it basically amounts to adding more full-featured client-side tools, with linkups to the server, so that instead of using SQLFORM or whatever you can just have a series of <INPUT> elements in a view along with a {{=submitAjax}} or something that causes them to do their thing independent of the rest of the page.  The "components" model seems to be something along these lines but from what I see it is still a good deal less comprehensive than the whole form/validator mechanism available to "real" forms.

I've become quite a fan of web2py in the last year or two that I've been using it and hope to see it continue forward!

[Muhammad Hashim Malik]

​Dear Massimo ​

The posts in this thread are showing desperate frustration for release of Web3Py. Please do it now.

People like what web2py is and expect the same from web3py. The only expected difference is shift from Python2 to Python3. Its ok, as a mastermind of Web2Py/Web3Py, whatever changes you deem necessary in Web3Py. Those changes would be acceptable to the community. 

Malik M. Hashim

+92-300-3754107

--

Resources:
- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[Anthony]

It's difficult, for instance, to create modules that factor out db-centric code, because the db object (typically defined in a model file) won't be available; this forces you to reimplement the wheel to some extent by taking the db-creation code out of a plain model file and put it in a function --- which then breaks things like the db-admin tool.

You can create the db object in a model and then pass it to functions defined in a module. This is how Auth works, and you will notice all the Auth tables are accessible via appadmin.

Obviously these are complex issues, but in the end I think it would be ideal to find a way that makes simple things smooth without making more complex code interdependencies quite so painful.  (Importing rather than executing code may help in this regard.)

I believe that is indeed the plan for web3py.
 

I do think, though, that this is something that could be added to the existing web2py without requiring a wholesale rewrite; it basically amounts to adding more full-featured client-side tools, with linkups to the server, so that instead of using SQLFORM or whatever you can just have a series of <INPUT> elements in a view along with a {{=submitAjax}} or something that causes them to do their thing independent of the rest of the page.  The "components" model seems to be something along these lines but from what I see it is still a good deal less comprehensive than the whole form/validator mechanism available to "real" forms.

You can put anything that would go on a full page (including any form) in an Ajax component. Forms in components are submitted via Ajax (they are no less "real" than forms loaded in full pages), and only the component itself refreshes upon submission. It is not quite clear what else you are looking for.

Anthony

[Anthony]

The posts in this thread are showing desperate frustration for release of Web3Py. Please do it now.

People like what web2py is and expect the same from web3py. The only expected difference is shift from Python2 to Python3.

Just to be clear, web2py 2.15.1 will be released in the next few days and will support Python 3. It is still web2py, just with Python 3 support and a number of other updates and fixes. web3py will be a completely new framework (also supporting Python 3), quite different from web2py. It is not close to ready for release.

Anthony

[Karoly Kantor]

For people to feel they have an understanding on the web2py roadmap and trust in in its future, i think it would be important to get clear answers to the following questions:

1. When "web3py" is released, what will happen to web2py? Will it come to an end of life, or will the two frameworks continue to be maintained parallel?

2. What will be the relationship between web2py and web3py? I would guess that contributors' efforts will shift to web3py, so what happens to existing web2py based applications? Will there be an upgrade path with reasonable effort, of will those apps be stuck with an old framework from which contributor effort has shifted away?

[Oasis Agano]

If possible can we also have this in either web2py 2.15 or web3py or both:

1. Better applications Unit testing(Not the framework test) methods and enough documentation
2. Better Oauth2 support
3. Better token based authentication for apis
4. Support of GET and POST requests on login like flask does.

Thank you for your time.

kr,

Oasis

[Anthony]

1. Better token based authentication for apis

web2py Auth supports JWT tokens.

1. Support of GET and POST requests on login like flask does.

What does this mean?

Anthony

[Richard Vézina]

Please stop making unjustify pressure to the release of web3py... I greatly prefer that Massimo's take as much as he need time to design it new framework. It will prevent design flaws that would other than that be leaved in and make things more difficult to maintain in the future and require major refactoring or backward compatibility issue. I think it would be more constructive to share our idea and our expectation, as it will help Massimo make a better system design.

This answer express my own voice and not represent any of the web2py core team but just me.

But Malik you keep coming back with pressure for sometimes and I don't find this press constructive. You could rather share your expectations from the new framework, I think Massimo has share his thought many time about web3py, and base on these informations I am sure we can provide constructive feedback...

Thanks

Richard

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[Richard Vézina]

Karoly,

1) Massimo had already mention that web2py will be supported by the core team. You should know that core team much more involve in the maintenance and enhancement of web2py lately than Massimo is. I am rely confident in the maintenance of web2py for a fading out period if web3py will get traction. If web3py don't get traction, I am pretty sure that web2py will still continue to have a large user base and good core team to at least keep thing working.

2) Only Massimo can answer that, but I am confident that it will consider this aspect, clear and easy path to transition from w2p to w3p... So there should be a simple way to refactor your app to migrate it to web3py. But web3py will brake backward compatibility, so you have to expect to have major refactoring to do what exactly will be known when the time comes.

Richard

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- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[António Ramos]

+1 agreed.....

Lets remove some pressure from Massimo...

Too much noise can harm the baby...

[Brendan Barnwell]

You can put anything that would go on a full page (including any form) in an Ajax component. Forms in components are submitted via Ajax (they are no less "real" than forms loaded in full pages), and only the component itself refreshes upon submission. It is not quite clear what else you are looking for.

To give a concrete example, one thing I long for is client-side versions of all the validators that are validating based only on the form (that is, the "shape") of the data.  A validator for something like a phone number or email address is just looking at the textual structure of the data, and it would be nice for that to be done client side and show a nice error ("enter a valid email" or whatever) before the form is ever submitted.  This would not replace server-side validation, and some kinds of checks can only be done server side (e.g., if you want to make sure the address is not just syntactically valid but actually exists in the DB).  But having client-side validators built in (and known to be equivalent/compatible with the server-side ones) would be really nice.

[Anthony]

On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 2:59:42 PM UTC-4, Brendan Barnwell wrote:

You can put anything that would go on a full page (including any form) in an Ajax component. Forms in components are submitted via Ajax (they are no less "real" than forms loaded in full pages), and only the component itself refreshes upon submission. It is not quite clear what else you are looking for.

To give a concrete example, one thing I long for is client-side versions of all the validators that are validating based only on the form (that is, the "shape") of the data.  A validator for something like a phone number or email address is just looking at the textual structure of the data, and it would be nice for that to be done client side and show a nice error ("enter a valid email" or whatever) before the form is ever submitted.  This would not replace server-side validation, and some kinds of checks can only be done server side (e.g., if you want to make sure the address is not just syntactically valid but actually exists in the DB).  But having client-side validators built in (and known to be equivalent/compatible with the server-side ones) would be really nice.

Got it, but that's not what you described in your previous post. web3py will likely work more like this.

Anthony

[Richard Vézina]

Massimo's has propose an example with ractive JS call W3 long time ago which show case basically what you ask for... Look web2p/W3 or massimo/W3 on github...

Richard

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Brendan Barnwell <bren...@gmail.com> wrote:

You can put anything that would go on a full page (including any form) in an Ajax component. Forms in components are submitted via Ajax (they are no less "real" than forms loaded in full pages), and only the component itself refreshes upon submission. It is not quite clear what else you are looking for.

To give a concrete example, one thing I long for is client-side versions of all the validators that are validating based only on the form (that is, the "shape") of the data.  A validator for something like a phone number or email address is just looking at the textual structure of the data, and it would be nice for that to be done client side and show a nice error ("enter a valid email" or whatever) before the form is ever submitted.  This would not replace server-side validation, and some kinds of checks can only be done server side (e.g., if you want to make sure the address is not just syntactically valid but actually exists in the DB).  But having client-side validators built in (and known to be equivalent/compatible with the server-side ones) would be really nice.

--

[vince]

since you've mentioned rethinkdb, just wondering have you completed the pydal adapter for rethinkdb yet? it would be nice if you release it with web2py too.

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 at 7:29:20 AM UTC+8, Massimo Di Pierro wrote:

My plan is this....

It is based on bottle + gevent + gunicorn + rethinkdb + pydal + vue.js + 

some code ported from web2py (templates, helpers, validators, internationalization, scheduler)

Unlike web2py it uses modules not execfile and this makes it 10x faster (this part is done) and code it no longer interpreted at every request. Only on change.

Routes are declared using decorators like in bottle and flask.

It will use rethinkdb for storing errors, sessions, and anything user defined. This allows to scale horizontally. Nothing gets stored on the file system any more. Ever. Unless you choose to use sqlite for your app.

No more forms and grids generated server side. Possible and will probably backport SQLFrom and Gid but will discourage it. The default client will be in vue.js. The forms and grids will be generated client-side based on self-documenting APIs. This work must be done. It is not terribly hard just pedantic.

It has a redesigned admin. Not necessarily better but leaner. This part is also done although it may need restyling.

I am ditching a lot of the web2py auth logic. Nobody really uses groups and permissions and the way it is done may not be the best way for everybody. Instead I will default to auth0 integration.

From a developer prospective the code will look very similar and I will be able to recycle 90% of the documentation.

The problems are that web2py grew a bit bloated and typical programming patterns have shifted from postbacks to single page apps with form submission via API. Also web2py does not provide enough tools for scaling since uses filesystem by default. The new version will do less then current web2py but will remedy those issues and make it easier to make responsive and scalable apps.

I am conflicted. I could use help to get this done quicker but I do not want to post something that is half done people are unhappy with. What I would like may not be what everybody likes but I am mostly building this in a way that would work well for myself and share in the hope it is useful to others. BSD license.

If you are willing to help before the code is made public feel free to contact me personally.

Massimo

 

On Sunday, 28 May 2017 11:47:49 UTC-5, Oasis Agano wrote:

Is the new framework web3py if so when is the official launch?
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 2:32:01 AM UTC+2, Relsi Maron wrote:

Hi Andrea,

Yes, there will be a future for web2py!

Web2py will remain being what it is. :)

A new version, with support for Python 3, is about to come. Even though Massimo is developing a new framework, Web2py will continue to exist - with the same purpose for which it was created: to teach development.

Cheers.


Em sábado, 27 de maio de 2017 04:11:02 UTC-3, Andrea Fae' escreveu:

[Ron Chatterjee]

Massimo, web3py,... 

• Will it have a web interface? 
• Template: web2py template language? 
• How about default.py? How about all the queries we make to the database? The same method will apply?
• How about grid and SQLFORM? How about all the validators?
• It will be a full scale battery included or a minimalist approach like flask or bottle?
• Is it one page like flask or bottle or modular approach like django?
• All the plugins will still work? Any third party packages it can accept?
• How much of rework needed if someone wants to convert a web2py app to web3py? I am guessing if pydal and the template language is same then very minimal. Are you going to provide a conversion doc (conversion from web2py to web3py)? 
• Do you recommend people who are using web2py for deployment and regular site (already functional) to switch over to web3py and leave web2py just to get the training and that's it?
  
• Is there a specific advantage of web3py over web2py other than speed?

-Ron

[JorgeH]

Hehe.

Let poor Massimo breath..

He shared with us his intentions about web3py

I expect the first release to be an alfa version.

We are excited and thrilled but just chill out.

[Richard Vézina]

Kill anxiety, the only certainty we have is that things gonna change...

:D

--

[João Gulineli]

Dear all, in my humble opinion I believe that web3py should have something to import external modules like in django (plugable apps). I know that in web2py we have plugins but I believe that this isn't so good because we don't have so many developer sharing their codes in that way that we have few pluggables options.

João Henrique Gulineli Fachini;
Cel: 18 - 8107 8499

[Ben Lawrence]

Thanks Massimo for outlining your plan. Would you be able to outline the goal?

I think web2py's goal is a framework that is easy to start and program, and great for teaching purposes. Great for hobbyists, students and small company websites with up to 1000 clicks per day or so. Am I wrong?

Can you outline the goal for web3py? (e.g. framework for websites in production with 100,000s clicks per day? or a framework for teaching client side web design? I don't know...)

regards,

Ben

BTW thanks for web2py!

[Ron Chatterjee]

If the site gets 1000 clicks a day but cant handle 10k clicks a day, then its not web2py problem but success. The problem falls to the owner who cant handle the scaling beyond 1k clicks. In other words, if it scales that much fast, one should look at all the framework across the spectrum to see which framework will suit the need for the intended purpose not just web3py. Just some thoughts...

[Anthony]

On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 11:55:13 AM UTC-4, Ben Lawrence wrote:

Thanks Massimo for outlining your plan. Would you be able to outline the goal?

I think web2py's goal is a framework that is easy to start and program, and great for teaching purposes. Great for hobbyists, students and small company websites with up to 1000 clicks per day or so. Am I wrong?

Can you outline the goal for web3py? (e.g. framework for websites in production with 100,000s clicks per day? or a framework for teaching client side web design? I don't know...)

Although web2py certainly isn't the fastest framework around, its limits (on a single server) are not likely to be anywhere near as low as 1000 clicks (pages) or even 100,000 per day. For example, in the latest round of the TechEmpower Framework Benchmarks, web2py served 5,886 pages in the Fortunes test in 15 seconds (which translates to nearly 34 million pages per day). web2py is one of the slower Python frameworks, but still within a factor of two compared with Django and Flask, and a factor of four compared with the fastest frameworks.

Anthony

[Ron Chatterjee]

And If I have to guess the fastest framework is not in python. 

[Anthony]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 11:12:17 AM UTC-4, Ron Chatterjee wrote:

And If I have to guess the fastest framework is not in python.

You don't have to guess -- all the data are at https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r14&hw=ph&test=fortune&c=6&o=6 (that link includes only full stack frameworks using a full ORM). Actually, if you don't want to code in Java or C++, Python has some top contenders.

Anthony

[Richard Vézina]

I notice web2py is reported latency... What is causing this latency, js not minify?? Ca we improve it?

--

[António Ramos]

I just got curious about Lapis....

[Anthony]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, Richard wrote:

I notice web2py is reported latency... What is causing this latency, js not minify?? Ca we improve it?

Latency is just roughly the inverse of the total requests served (i.e., lower latency means more requests served). In this case, no JS is served -- it's just a single HTML page. The latency is due to (a) the time it takes to execute the DB query, and (b) the time it takes for the framework code to run and produce the output. We can only improve it by making the framework code faster.

Anthony

[Ron Chatterjee]

What is web2py-optimized?

[Richard Vézina]

rigth config for web2py to perform... Not the default out of the box package...

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 5:47 AM, Ron Chatterjee <achatte...@gmail.com> wrote:

What is web2py-optimized?

[Anthony]

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 5:47:57 AM UTC-4, Ron Chatterjee wrote:

What is web2py-optimized?

Controller code is in a module and called directly from a model file (so there is no controller file executed), and although the DAL is used for making database connections, queries are done via raw SQL (i.e., no DAL models defined).

Both the standard web2py app and the web2py-optimized app have sessions disabled (as they are not needed for any of the tests) and have the apps compiled.

Anthony

[Muhammad Hashim Malik]

Hello folks

Is there any update regarding web3py?

Truly,

Malik Muhammad Hashim

On 4 Jun 2017 1:46 pm, "Muhammad Hashim Malik" <has...@rehmansoft.com> wrote:

Respected Massimo

You base idea of web3py is fantastic. Please share your web3py work. At least release its beta version, so that people play with it , be get acquaintance with it and positive feedback may be available so that direction of the web3py project may be in right direction. People like me are frustrated waiting web3py release. Please release it as soon as possible.

Truly,

Malik Muhammad Hashim

--

Resources:
- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[Dave S]

On Thursday, September 14, 2017 at 8:02:00 AM UTC-7, Muhammad Hashim Malik wrote:

Hello folks

Is there any update regarding web3py?

Truly,

Malik Muhammad Hashim

The emphasis the last 2 months has been in getting a good 2.16.x done.  Much of the work on 2.16.x is also applicable to web3py, even though the views are going to be different.

/dps

[Marlysson Silva]

Then will be there are other framework? And no just to port the web2py codebase to py3..

[Dave S]

On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 9:12:52 AM UTC-7, Marlysson Silva wrote:

Then will be there are other framework? And no just to port the web2py codebase to py3..

Much of the core will be shared, but the presentation will be simpler.   FORM() for everything, as SQLRORM() is getting too hairy, an more reliance on javascript for the views.

The official plan has been discussed multiple times in this thread.

See
<URL:https://groups.google.com/d/msg/web2py/89a846kPeGA/nUpNJB_VCAAJ>
and
 <URL:https://groups.google.com/d/msg/web2py/89a846kPeGA/puoLMP5kBAAJ>

/dps

[Richard Vézina]

Hello Marlysson,

The focus rigth now is on make web2py work with python 3... Actually it already works but there is maybe some bugs, so any input, testing and report is welcome... 

You can follow the progression here : https://github.com/web2py/web2py/issues/1353

Richard

--
Resources:
- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[Vinhthuy]

Here's a radical and possibly stupid idea for Massimo to think about on a Saturday morning.

Forget web3py.  Think about web2go.

There's lots of promise today for a good full-stack Golang framework.  The Golang folks eschew the notion of full-stack frameworks, but I don't think many of them get it.  If you have an intuitive, easy-to-use, and relatively performant CRUD, full-stack framework in Golang, I guarantee you it's going to be a hit.

My lightweight web/networking apps these days are written in Golang.  The beauty of it is that it's so easy to get deployed. Golang's builtin http handling is rock solid.  There's no need for gunicorn, uwgsi, etc.

About Python, I know many people are still on Python 2, but to me it's legacy.  Many people completely moved on to Python 3.  That makes web2py very outdated.

The notion of Web3py is still a good idea *right now*.  But by the time you can deliver Web3py, it is likely that it will be technologically outdated.

So, there it is.  Web2Go.  You've learned many lessons from having built web2py.  These experience will make your CRUD full-stack framework very meaningful.  It will be controversial, just like when some Python "purists" really hated web2py years ago (some probably still do).  But that is life.  There were many many Pythonic frameworks back then.  Most can't remember their names today.

[Anthony]

About Python, I know many people are still on Python 2, but to me it's legacy.  Many people completely moved on to Python 3.  That makes web2py very outdated.

Note, web2py now supports Python 3.

Anthony

[Oli]

I find a post from RethinkDB. RethinkDB is shutting down.

and this: https://www.heise.de/developer/meldung/NoSQL-RethinkDB-findet-neue-Heimat-3618840.html

[Gabor Nyul]

It is based on bottle + gevent + gunicorn + rethinkdb + pydal + vue.js + 

some code ported from web2py (templates, helpers, validators, internationalization, scheduler)

If it will use gunicorn, it means you will drop Windows support (as gunicorn only runs on *nix machines)?
It would be too bad...

[Jason Solack]

is this official?  we use web2py in production and would love to migrate to python 3.  I am just concerned about edge cases that would cause an issuse.

[Leonel Câmara]

Yes python 3 support is official. Compatibility problems with python 3 are considered bugs. The upcoming version will bring some fixes for some problems that were already found. As always before putting it in production test everything works for your app with python 3. If something doesn't work then you file an issue. Before putting it in production if you are storing your cookies in files you will need to delete them due to the different pickle format and you will need to do a fake_migrate to rebuild the table files which suffer from the same problem. 

[Alex]

Is it mentioned on the homepage or in the docs which Python versions are officially supported? I can't find this information anywhere.

web2py certainly (at the moment) does not work with Python 3.5 so you should mention that it supports Python >= 3.6. I opened an issue here
https://github.com/web2py/web2py/issues/1715

The fix would be very easy (one-liner) so I don't really understand why it doesn't get addressed.

Alex

[Leonel Câmara]

Alex you do realize you can make a pull request yourself right? You already know how to fix it, just do it.

[Carlos Cesar Caballero Díaz]

Golang is a restrictive technology, we can't use it from countries like Cuba. From my point of view, it's not a good idea.

Greetings.

El 04/11/17 a las 12:09, Vinhthuy escribió:

Here's a radical and possibly stupid idea for Massimo to think about on a Saturday morning.

Forget web3py.  Think about web2go.

There's lots of promise today for a good full-stack Golang framework.  The Golang folks eschew the notion of full-stack frameworks, but I don't think many of them get it.  If you have an intuitive, easy-to-use, and relatively performant CRUD, full-stack framework in Golang, I guarantee you it's going to be a hit.

My lightweight web/networking apps these days are written in Golang.  The beauty of it is that it's so easy to get deployed. Golang's builtin http handling is rock solid.  There's no need for gunicorn, uwgsi, etc.

About Python, I know many people are still on Python 2, but to me it's legacy.  Many people completely moved on to Python 3.  That makes web2py very outdated.

The notion of Web3py is still a good idea *right now*.  But by the time you can deliver Web3py, it is likely that it will be technologically outdated.

So, there it is.  Web2Go.  You've learned many lessons from having built web2py.  These experience will make your CRUD full-stack framework very meaningful.

--
Resources:
- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[Alex]

Actually I'm not familiar with PR but next time I'll give it a try.

Anyway, this issue has now been fixed.

[黄祥]

any plan to work with another tools?

ref:

https://github.com/kamranahmedse/developer-roadmap

thanks and best regards,

stifan

[Gabor Nyul]

Are there any news about the new version (web3py or what ever the name will be)?

[Dan Carroll]

Not sure if this thread is finished yet but I would like to add my requests for the new framework.

* Something with a mobile first perspective would be nice.

* Data and page caching on client side.

* And offline capabilities.

That said, it goes without saying it would need some kind of syncing capabilities.  :-)

[dome...@gmail.com]

"Nobody really uses groups and permissions"

Dear Massimo
I do use groups and permissions. Groups, use them as roles, and create a copy of permissions to define the permissions as unique.
Thus, I grant each user roles and not individual permissions, which allows me to work as in large systems, for which the administration of these cases would be very complex and cumbersome.
Sds
PS: the apologies for the translator. My English is terrible.

It is based on bottle + gevent + gunicorn + rethinkdb + pydal + vue.js + 

some code ported from web2py (templates, helpers, validators, internationalization, scheduler)

Unlike web2py it uses modules not execfile and this makes it 10x faster (this part is done) and code it no longer interpreted at every request. Only on change.

Routes are declared using decorators like in bottle and flask.

It will use rethinkdb for storing errors, sessions, and anything user defined. This allows to scale horizontally. Nothing gets stored on the file system any more. Ever. Unless you choose to use sqlite for your app.

No more forms and grids generated server side. Possible and will probably backport SQLFrom and Gid but will discourage it. The default client will be in vue.js. The forms and grids will be generated client-side based on self-documenting APIs. This work must be done. It is not terribly hard just pedantic.

It has a redesigned admin. Not necessarily better but leaner. This part is also done although it may need restyling.

I am ditching a lot of the web2py auth logic. Nobody really uses groups and permissions and the way it is done may not be the best way for everybody. Instead I will default to auth0 integration.

From a developer prospective the code will look very similar and I will be able to recycle 90% of the documentation.

The problems are that web2py grew a bit bloated and typical programming patterns have shifted from postbacks to single page apps with form submission via API. Also web2py does not provide enough tools for scaling since uses filesystem by default. The new version will do less then current web2py but will remedy those issues and make it easier to make responsive and scalable apps.

I am conflicted. I could use help to get this done quicker but I do not want to post something that is half done people are unhappy with. What I would like may not be what everybody likes but I am mostly building this in a way that would work well for myself and share in the hope it is useful to others. BSD license.

If you are willing to help before the code is made public feel free to contact me personally.

Massimo

 

On Sunday, 28 May 2017 11:47:49 UTC-5, Oasis Agano wrote:

Is the new framework web3py if so when is the official launch?
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 2:32:01 AM UTC+2, Relsi Maron wrote:

Hi Andrea,

Yes, there will be a future for web2py!

Web2py will remain being what it is. :)

A new version, with support for Python 3, is about to come. Even though Massimo is developing a new framework, Web2py will continue to exist - with the same purpose for which it was created: to teach development.

Cheers.


Em sábado, 27 de maio de 2017 04:11:02 UTC-3, Andrea Fae' escreveu:

[Martin Weissenboeck]

Me too (not #metoo :-)

I like groups and permissions and I use both very often.

 Regards, Martin

--

Resources:
- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[sandeep patel]

I am also in one of them which use groups, permission, and role very often.

Best,

Sandeep

[黄祥]

use the auth tables too (user, group, permission, membership) too n sqlform.grid and sqlform

just an idea perhaps, make it as a parameter for auth, sqlform.grid and sqlform

e.g. auth

auth.define_tables(username=True, signature=True, user_table=True, group_table=True, permission_table=True, membership_table=True, auth0=True)

problem for grid and sqlform is when using another css framework or own css, the output in web is ugly, and can't use the web2py generated sqlform, and sqlform.grid

e.g. grid and sqlform

form=SQLFORM(db.test, css_class='whatever')

not sure is it same like formstyle and col3 in sqlform constructor

best regards,

stifan

[António Ramos]

If somebody removes groups and permissions from web2py, i will have to start using other web frameworks to create fantastic and unrealistic web apps.

:)

 

--

[Anthony]

web2py promises backward compatibility, so nothing will be removed. The comment in question was about a potentially new framework, and it was made a year and a half ago.

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[Massimo Di Pierro]

No worries. We never ever ever removed a feature from web2py. We only add.

If we make a new framework (something we talk about but did not happen) we will improve on this feature, not remove it.

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[António Ramos]

Massimo, you said ... (something we talk about but did not happen)

Is it still going to happen?

regards

António

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Resources:
- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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[Richard Vézina]

I wonder how the glue will be made for this to be consider a framework??

It all sound really interesting although as far as I understand we will have to code in vues.js for most part... If SQLForm is gone I feel a lot of the web2py simplicity to start with will be lost... 

How this to be framework will reside related to the server side restful / client side app paradigm ?

Thanks

Richard

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 7:29 PM Massimo Di Pierro <massimo....@gmail.com> wrote:

My plan is this....

--

[黄祥]

perhaps can learn from this:

https://flatlogic.com/admin-dashboards/sing-app-vue-dashboard

https://github.com/flatlogic/sing-app-vue-dashboard

best regards,

stifan

[Antonio Salazar]

As a user, it looks nice but has horrible usability.

• Simply moving the cursor to the wrong place can slide the whole dashboard several centimeters to the side.
• Activating the right panel scrolls the left panel trigger as if going *beyond* the left border of the screen. You have to hide the right panel if you want to unhide the left.
• In general, elements needlessly shifting from under your cursor using sluggish JavaScript animations.
  

There are nice things here, sure, but please don't learn UX from this.

[Richard Vézina]

You are right, I found some that there wierd things occuring some times as the left side bar completly disappeared... My guess is that this is some glitches that may be existing for some browser/OS??

I think from my standpoint that the issue is that the framework is Signle app vue... I am not ready to create an app that would be only single view... Although for the dashboard it make sens.

It definetly somethings I would study... Would I use it, I don't know, it depends how easy it would be to pick it up and how relyable it been designed to be.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 7:01 PM Antonio Salazar <asala...@gmail.com> wrote:

As a user, it looks nice but has horrible usability.

• Simply moving the cursor to the wrong place can slide the whole dashboard several centimeters to the side.
• Activating the right panel scrolls the left panel trigger as if going *beyond* the left border of the screen. You have to hide the right panel if you want to unhide the left.
• In general, elements needlessly shifting from under your cursor using sluggish JavaScript animations.
  

There's nice things here, sure, but please don't learn UX from this.

On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 3:44:59 PM UTC-6, 黄祥 wrote:

perhaps can learn from this:

https://flatlogic.com/admin-dashboards/sing-app-vue-dashboard

https://github.com/flatlogic/sing-app-vue-dashboard

best regards,

stifan

--

[Fernando Lucas]

Did you think about the JS framework, https://aurelia.io/?

Thank's

Fernando Lucas

--

[António Ramos]

Just my 2 cents

If we are on to Vuejs the better options is not bootstrap, its vuetify... they were made to be together..

[António Ramos]

Just an admin with vue and vuetify https://github.com/tookit/vue-material-admin

[黄祥]

another alternative for vue admin:

https://github.com/PanJiaChen/vue-element-admin

best regards,

stifan

[Gabor Nyul]

We are talking for about 2 years now about a possible web3py and other possible addons to it.

What do you think, when we can get the first insight of it? If at all...

[villas]

Check this out:

https://github.com/web2py/web3py

Search this current group for recent posts on 'web3py'.

Regards, D

[Massimo Di Pierro]

yes. for my prospective it is very close to be done. we have:

[x] more than x10 faster than web2py

[x] pydal (same as web2py)

[x] routing (like bottle or flask)

[x] T

[x] helpers (99% compatible with a web2py)

[x] template (same as web2py)

[x] sessions (in cookies, db, redis, memcache) (need more testing)

[90%] forms (very similar to web2py)

[50%] _dashboard (equivalent of admin)

[0%] grid

[0%] appadmin replacement

[0%] auth

The last 3 will very different from web2py. grid will be more JS based. appadmin will use the grid and be based on some variation collection/json and/or graphql support for pydal. auth will be replaced by plugguble modules and a simple database structure. groups will be replaced by generic hierarchical tags. Maybe I will be done in one more month.

I could use some help adding missing functions to _dashboard.

[rāma]

ONE month!? Sounds super exciting.

[Carlos Costa]

Massimo, 

could you create some issues related to these things to be done?

I will be easier if anyone wants to contribute.

I want to contribute but don't know exactly how.

--
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- http://web2py.com
- http://web2py.com/book (Documentation)
- http://github.com/web2py/web2py (Source code)
- https://code.google.com/p/web2py/issues/list (Report Issues)
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At.

Carlos J. Costa

--------------------------------------------------------------

Cientista da Computação - Esp. Gestão em Telecom

[Massimo Di Pierro]

good idea. will do

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[Rafael Oliveira]

Will web3py replace web2py? Will web2py end? Sorry for my English. I used the google translator.

[Massimo Di Pierro]

Good question.

We are not dropping web2py support. We will continue improve web2py. You may have seen a lot of work in that direction recently, mostly thanks to Paolo. Also over the years we made web2py work with python 3.

Yet web2py is showing its age. If you are building something new I will recommend you use web3py. It will be usable by the end of May and stable by July. If you want to port your existing apps to python 3, rather than staying with web2py + python 3, I would recommend you jump one more step and port it directly to web3py. If you want to stick with python 2, you will not have a choice.

Massimo