YAL - yet another logo

[Richard Gordon]

Dear web2py community:

 

I recognize that this is very late to the web2py logo game and that you may be tired of this thread, but I felt strongly enough about it to take some action. Being artistically challenged, I asked a dear friend of mine and professional animator, Diane Heller (http://www.dianimation.com),  to illustrate a web2py logo based on my specs. I submitted her drawings to Massimo for his review and he asked that I open them to this forum for your further review and comments. So please share your thoughts! To avoid biasing the discussion, I will withhold Massimo's feedback.

 

I will, however, relate what I wrote to Massimo regarding the thought process behind this logo design. Web2py is clearly in the early adopter phase and needs to graduate to the crucial early majority phase before it can "cross the chasm" into the mainstream market acceptance. For web2py to proliferate, the focus right now must be on reaching early adopters and the leading-edge of the early majority. 

 

I suspect these people are either existing python programmers or programmers who have heard good things about python and web2py and are willing to switch frameworks and languages. The common draw among them, IMHO, is python. To state it differently, if web2py were written in Ruby or another language, it's likely most of us wouldn't be here. That is, unless we were absolutely desperate for a better framework solution than Ruby or Django, which seems unlikely.

 

Obviously, a logo won't convince early adopters that web2py is enterprise/production worthy. Only apps will do that. But a logo can reference other brands (python) while remaining identifiably unique and inspiring brand loyalty. The attached drawings are attempts to achieve that difficult feat.

 

I attach 4 versions of the logo for your consideration (call them 1, 2, 3, and 4 in sequence). The last one, #4, of the snake looping through the b and wrapping its tail around the p in web and py, respectively, is a draft of my preferred choice because it depicts a linkage between the web and python and creates a dynamic tension that the others lack. The other logos are prototypes from which you should consider competing snake facial expressions and body proportions and positions.

 

This is still a work in progress, but please know that it is very hard work. Unless there is overwhelmingly positive feedback to these prototypes and a strong chance of using this logo to represent web2py, I will immediately ask Diane to cease and desist from further work. She has a big project on her plate and it would be unfair to ask for any more of her time than she has already graciously volunteered, unless there was a strong interest from this community.

 

So ... have at it. Let the comments fly!

[Richard]

Having the snake connect with web and py is a great idea.
But I prefer the 1st snake with cuter expression and bigger head in
proportion to body.


On Sep 2, 2:39 pm, "Richard Gordon" <richard_gor...@verizon.net>
wrote:

>  plain 2 WEB2py dianimation.jpg
> 145KViewDownload
>
>  looped 2 WEB2py dianimation.jpg
> 146KViewDownload
>
>  tail wrap WEB2py dianimation.jpg
> 145KViewDownload
>
>  looped 2 connecting web py dianimation.jpg
> 150KViewDownload

[villas]

Nice idea, but here's 2 cents...

If web2py is pushing for acceptance within the enterprise, would it
be a good idea for the IT manager to be making his board presentation
with a cartoon snake? The snake might seem cute and friendly to an
end-user consumer (providing they don't have a snake phobia!), but we
need to win over the hard-nosed businessmen and developers here and
from that point of view the current logo seems more reassuringly
'corporate'.

Whilst I like the idea of emphasing 'python', that is already being
done with the 'py' in the name. As the main target for web2py must
currently be developers, they already know for sure that it must be
using python so maybe the presence of a snake is merely serving to
accentuate the obvious.

[weheh]

Ahhh ... the mythic board presentation to the hard-nosed businessmen.
No women in the board, of course. And everyone has ophidiophobia,
too.

Well, think about cute animals in logos. Think about Twitter's logo.
Or about the famous pets.com handpuppet spokesanimal of the dot.com
bubble. Think about Geiko's lizard logo. or GNU. Or Linux. Or Bacardi
or Batman bats. Or Camel cigarettes (no, don't think about them). Or
how about Ferrari (yes, think about them)! Lacoste. Lamborghini.
Playboy. Qantas. Red Bull. Saab ... animal logos all. All accepted by
the mythic hard-nosed businessmen.

Anyway, this is about capturing the python community first. It's about
winning apps, first. Right now, web2py is a bottom-up grass-roots
movement. That can work very well if you really speak to the grass
roots. A corporate web2py logo would try to speak to the late majority
IT professional who doesn't want to make a mistake and lose his job,
and who's unlikely to change frameworks unless he gets a bunch of
python bigots to beat him about the head and shoulders.

pythonistas -- Go for the snake. The snake is your friend. ;^)

[desfrenes]

I don't like. Idea is good, realisation is bad.

[Nik Go]

Like Richard's opinion, I like snake #1's expression as well and would vote to have a new rendering of that snake posing similar to image #4 where it is intertwining with "web" and "py".

Web2Py is a developer's tool, hence a "crazy" logo is fine as long as it represents the ideas the community/developers want to portray. It's the applications that gets the businessman's nod.

[Timbo]

+1

Let's stick with what we got. It's simple, elegant, modern and
recognizable.

[Zoom.Quiet]

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 21:38, Timbo<tfar...@swgen.com> wrote:
>
> +1
>
+1
but font-type and snake,need reChoice,
idea is cool and pefect,
but it's ugly now\\\

--
http://zoomquiet.org 人生苦短? Pythonic!
流程是对先前蠢行的内在反应! ~ Clay Shirky (Process is an embedded reaction to prior
stupidity)http://bit.l...

[weheh]

Hi all, thanks for the feedback so far. To determine whether we should
spend time developing this design please be explicit in your comments
as to whether you want us to continue to develop the snake-logo
concept or whether we should stick with Massimo's current selection
for the logo (the 3 people forming a W).

The sketches of the snake logo are just that -- conceptual sketches,
not final artwork. Feel free to express your preferences for any head,
body, body position, font, and overall composition.

[mdipierro]

First of all I thanks to Richard for the time he spend making this
logo.

It is nice and perhaps we can find some use for it.
At this point it cannot be the official logo for web2py. That is for
many reasons. One is that the book is already going to print with the
current logo. Another is that the I agree with user villas.

The current logo includes a reference to the name (because of W and
because of two dots) and it gives a sense of community (since the W
with dots can be seen as people).

This new logo only shows a snake and the meaning of that is not
immediately recognizable to everybody. In particular considering that
the Python name itself is not a reference to a snake but to the Monty
Python comedian.

Massimo

[weheh]

Listen, Massimo. The python is a powerful and gnarly beast that can
easily strangle and eat corporate board members who try to overpower
him. The fact that our python is also named Max isn't a coincidence.
The fact that he has two real eyes and can count is telling. Let Max
squeeze the anonymous orange corporate robot out of the picture and
put Max's cute face on our website, instead!


(I'm sorry people. It is my habit to try to leave the best for last,
which makes me a bad salesman. I neglected to mention that our snake's
name is Max and that he's tenacious.)

# On an analytical note, it is often easier to ride someone else's
coattails as a small fry than it is to blaze a new trail, especially
when competition is fierce, as it is in this case. Python is a huge
movement, web2py is small. Django & ROR are really big and have a big
lead. web2py is the best python solution, Monty (I met John Cleese at
a party, once) or not.

[weheh]

You take a look at Max in picture #4 and tell me he couldn't squeeze
the living daylights out of you 'til you cryed, "uncle." Young Max in
picture #1 is killer cute, too, isn't he?

[Yarko Tymciurak]

I agree w/ Massimo - consistency is important;  Massimo has selected a logo and icon, and it is going to the publisher.

Perhaps at some later time we can collect new icon proposals for _this_ project.

The confusion of multiple logos is probably not worth it.

Having said that, Fun logo - thanks for sharing the effort!  (I _love_ playing w/ logos ;-)

[JorgeR]

Yes.. thank you richard for your effort and inititative.

But, no thanks.

;)

On Sep 2, 1:54 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree w/ Massimo - consistency is important;  Massimo has selected a logo
> and icon, and it is going to the publisher.
>
> Perhaps at some later time we can collect new icon proposals for _this_
> project.
>
> The confusion of multiple logos is probably not worth it.
>
> Having said that, Fun logo - thanks for sharing the effort!  (I _love_
> playing w/ logos ;-)
>

[weheh]

Not that it's a democracy, but so far, the polls look like this:

Pro Max the snake:
- weheh
- Richard
- Nik Go
- Zoom.Quiet

On the fence but leaning slightly toward Max:
- Desfrenes

Anti Max:
- Villas
- Timbo
- Massimo (he's the tie breaker, so he only gets 1/2 a vote ;^)
- Yarko T
- JorgeR

Poll officially closes at 12:39AM tomorrow morning. In the spirit of
no electioneering, I have nothing more to say, except get out and VOTE!

[waTR]

It might be an idea to declare a date some time in the future when
there will be a contest for a new logo--think OpenBSD. Maybe the users
could rather concentrate on coming up with a good maskot for the
project. What fish/mamal reflects web2py best? Tuna?

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/101570896/Tuna_Yellofin_Sushimi_Grade.jpg

[weheh]

Thanks, waTR, but please let me ask you to return to the topic. Are
you pro Max or anti Max?

[waTR]

Any animal can be maskot! Here is one for Massimo:
http://www.bigdealart.com/images/ThumbFiles/skunkwork.jpg

[mdipierro]

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/oceans/tuna

[Yarko Tymciurak]

On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:37 PM, waTR <ro...@devshell.org> wrote:

Any animal can be maskot!  Here is one for Massimo:
http://www.bigdealart.com/images/ThumbFiles/skunkwork.jpg

LOL!

To get how funny / creative this is, you have to look at it next to the Ferari logo.... :-)
 

[mdipierro]

LOL

On Sep 2, 3:01 pm, Yarko Tymciurak <yark...@gmail.com> wrote:

[weheh]

Thanks, waTR, very constructive (LOL). I see this thread has devolved
about as rapidly as I expeted it would. At this point, unless there's
a tsunami of support, it looks like poor Max is going to get voted off
the island. Maybe Max will have to learn to love tuna. He already
loves alligator:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/10/06/python_wideweb__430x322,1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/lavish-lunch-gives-python-killer-indigestion/2005/10/06/1128562943192.html&h=322&w=430&sz=49&tbnid=PoMSpuqQtmdx0M:&tbnh=94&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpython%2Beating%2Balligator&usg=__Byw64gfI_lPHBzjwzy1_zQ0noMk=&ei=INKeSv-3BM-EmQf0_cGlAw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=2&ct=image

[Yarko Tymciurak]

weheh - clearly, you need a coding project!   LOL!

[Bottiger]

Thank you and Diane, here are my thoughts on the logo.

The logo must be easily recognized at a distance or reduced in size
(when you iconize for example). The logo here has many fine details
such as the mouth and the eyes which can barely be seen as I am
looking at it through Google Groups. At its current state, it is more
suitable for animation (which Diane appears to have much experience
with) rather than a logo.

That is the issue, and not because it is a cute animal. If you take a
look at animal logos such as Python.org, and Twitter.com, you will see
that they are properly vectorized to avoid the reliance on fine detail
to distinguish themselves.

http://python.org/images/python-logo.gif
http://a2.twimg.com/a/1251845223/images/frontpage-bird.png

On Sep 1, 9:39 pm, "Richard Gordon" <richard_gor...@verizon.net>
wrote:

[rb]

Here's my two cents:

I looked over the 4 python snake logos and prefer #4 due to the
connection of the letters. Sure, making Max more devilish might be eye-
catching.

As for logos, in general...

I do not like the current 3-person logo. It means *nothing* to me. My
first reaction is, "is this project related to Ubuntu?"
Whereas, the python snake is *immediately* recognizable (perhaps
because of the snake's usage in the wxPython logo).

The point is, stop thinking about what pretty picture you like and
start thinking in terms of marketing. Marketing or promoting a brand
has only a few dimensions to it - and these include easy recognition,
and good connotations *pre-existing* in the mind of the viewer
(certainly bad connotations are to be avoided).

The Linux logo/mascot, of a cutesy penguin has always seemed, to me,
to be such a mistake. What does a "penguin" image conjure up in your
head? The only thing I could conclude is that the choice reflects a
need to present as "friendly, not-dangerous, etc." but I think a dog
would have served the purpose much better.

For those of you living in Canada, you may remember back when each
cellphone company decided upon their logos. Telus decided that insects
would be good images to use, although I cannot imagine why. Meanwhile
Microcell decided to go with dogs and they marketed their service as
"Fido." Their ads always contain lovable dogs and they play up the
"man's best friend" angle to promote that they always have your best
interests at heart. I think their marketing is genius. Telus has given
up with the insects and have tried a number of other animals -
currently they like monkeys... spider monkeys. Bizarre choice, imho.

The purpose of the logo is to capture, in a picture, the wanted
*feelings* from the viewer about your product/service. While the
current logo is good for presenting "community," I find that
"community" is now way over done and I get confused between logos and
projects. Further, the emphasis on the "2" (via colour) makes me
*immediately* think that this is "version 2" as opposed to "version
1."

Take a look at python projects and they seem to want to emphasize the
"python" bit. Here's the logo for wxPython GUI kit:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WxPython-logo.png

The comment that Python is a reference to Monty Python and not a snake
is off the mark. The (marketing) point is to associate a picture and
there is nothing *better* than an obvious pun. Except for using a
giant foot coming down to crush something (as is used in the opening
scenes of the Monty Python Show) I can't think of a better logo for
emphasizing python than a snake. In fact, many people have never seen
the Monty Python show so the giant foot would certainly be lost on
them.

Perhaps the overriding desire is indeed to communicate "community"
over everything else. I'm not sure if emphasing "python" is the best.
Me? I would emphasize "simple and easy" over everything else but I am
unsure what would serve as the best logo to communicate this.

When I was looking for a web platform I was looking for a python
project, more so than any other reason, because my client was using
wxPython. Why not use a similar development tool for the server (ie
share the language), but if I had found something easy and simple that
ran on Ruby I still would have seriously considered it. What I found
first was Zope, on the python side. I got the docs and started
reading. After several days I thought that it was all horribly over-
complicated. I briefly looked at Django but didn't think it was
different enough from Zope. When I discovered Web2py I was amazed.
Gee, all this can really be made this simple and straightforward? I
know my choice for a tagline would be "Web2py: simple elegance."
Because there are so many python projects that use a snake I would
seriously consider using Max to tie "Web" and "py" together in order
to quickly be identified by viewers as a Python project.

And afterall, that's what Web2py is: a web server that is programed in
python.

===
Oops... maybe that's more than just 2 cents. In any case, I hope I
struck the right amount of "Critical" and "informative" and
"promotionary" in order to intrigue others to read it all.

--
Rb

On Sep 2, 1:15 pm, weheh <richard_gor...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Thanks, waTR, very constructive (LOL). I see this thread has devolved
> about as rapidly as I expeted it would. At this point, unless there's
> a tsunami of support, it looks like poor Max is going to get voted off
> the island. Maybe Max will have to learn to love tuna. He already

> loves alligator:http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/20...

[weheh]

Bottiger, take a closer look by clicking on the icon at the head of
this thread to see a larger image. Agreed, however, that the snake
would need to be redone to make its features more visible in a small
format. It does lend itself to animation in a way that no other logo
could manage. If you needed a thumbnail, it would be best done as just
the head of the snake.

On Sep 2, 4:52 pm, Bottiger <bottig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you and Diane, here are my thoughts on the logo.
>
> The logo must be easily recognized at a distance or reduced in size
> (when you iconize for example). The logo here has many fine details
> such as the mouth and the eyes which can barely be seen as I am
> looking at it through Google Groups. At its current state, it is more
> suitable for animation (which Diane appears to have much experience
> with) rather than a logo.
>
> That is the issue, and not because it is a cute animal. If you take a
> look at animal logos such as Python.org, and Twitter.com, you will see
> that they are properly vectorized to avoid the reliance on fine detail
> to distinguish themselves.
>

> http://python.org/images/python-logo.gifhttp://a2.twimg.com/a/1251845223/images/frontpage-bird.png

>
> On Sep 1, 9:39 pm, "Richard Gordon" <richard_gor...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dear web2py community:
>
> > I recognize that this is very late to the web2py logo game and that you may be tired of this thread, but I felt strongly enough about it to take some action. Being artistically challenged, I asked a dear friend of mine and professional animator, Diane Heller (http://www.dianimation.com),  to illustrate a web2py logo based on my specs. I submitted her drawings to Massimo for his review and he asked that I open them to this forum for your further review and comments. So please share your thoughts! To avoid biasing the discussion, I will withhold Massimo's feedback.
>
> > I will, however, relate what I wrote to Massimo regarding the thought process behind this logo design. Web2py is clearly in the early adopter phase and needs to graduate to the crucial early majority phase before it can "cross the chasm" into the mainstream market acceptance. For web2py to proliferate, the focus right now must be on reaching early adopters and the leading-edge of the early majority.
>
> > I suspect these people are either existing python programmers or programmers who have heard good things about python and web2py and are willing to switch frameworks and languages. The common draw among them, IMHO, is python. To state it differently, if web2py were written in Ruby or another language, it's likely most of us wouldn't be here. That is, unless we were absolutely desperate for a better framework solution than Ruby or Django, which seems unlikely.
>
> > Obviously, a logo won't convince early adopters that web2py is enterprise/production worthy. Only apps will do that. But a logo can reference other brands (python) while remaining identifiably unique and inspiring brand loyalty. The attached drawings are attempts to achieve that difficult feat.
>
> > I attach 4 versions of the logo for your consideration (call them 1, 2, 3, and 4 in sequence). The last one, #4, of the snake looping through the b and wrapping its tail around the p in web and py, respectively, is a draft of my preferred choice because it depicts a linkage between the web and python and creates a dynamic tension that the others lack. The other logos are prototypes from which you should consider competing snake facial expressions and body proportions and positions.
>
> > This is still a work in progress, but please know that it is very hard work. Unless there is overwhelmingly positive feedback to these prototypes and a strong chance of using this logo to represent web2py, I will immediately ask Diane to cease and desist from further work. She has a big project on her plate and it would be unfair to ask for any more of her time than she has already graciously volunteered, unless there was a strong interest from this community.
>
> > So ... have at it. Let the comments fly!
>
> >  plain 2 WEB2py dianimation.jpg
> > 145KViewDownload
>
> >  looped 2 WEB2py dianimation.jpg
> > 146KViewDownload
>
> >  tail wrap WEB2py dianimation.jpg
> > 145KViewDownload
>
> >  looped 2 connecting web py dianimation.jpg

> > 150KViewDownload- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[weheh]

Thanks for your advice, Yarko. I will ask Max to visit your house for
a little squeeze time.

[weheh]

Current tally as of 6:45PM EST:

Pro Max the snake:
- weheh
- Richard
- Nik Go
- Zoom.Quiet

- rb (thanks for the $.20 -- Max is a lot better looking than that
wxPython mascot, that's for sure)

Abstain:
- Desfrenes
- waTR
- Bottiger

Anti Max:
- Villas
- Timbo
- Massimo (he's the tie breaker, so he only gets 1/2 a vote ;^)
- Yarko T
- JorgeR

Poll officially closes in around 8 hours.

[Richard]

I think there are 2 Pro Max Richard's - me and the original poster.

[weheh]

Current tally as of 10:30PM EST: 5 pro, 7 con, 3 abstain

Pro Max the snake:
- weheh (Richard Gordon)

- Richard
- Nik Go
- Zoom.Quiet
- rb

Abstain:
- Desfrenes
- waTR
- Bottiger

Anti Max:
- Villas
- Timbo
- Massimo

- Yarko T
- JorgeR

- Mr. Freeze
- Alex Fanjul

Polls open for another 3 hours.

[Jonathan Lundell]

Max is cute, but it's really not a mature logo design yet, and even if
it were I wonder how well it conveys the enterprise ambitions of
web2py. I like playfulness, but perhaps it would be better applied
elsewhere?

[weheh]

Jonathan. Correct, Max is currently a sketch. The poll is to determine
whether or not he is a viable logo candidate. If not, he will be
shelved. If yes, he will be polished. He can be matured quickly, with
appropriate feedback. If there's no interest, as I said, we won't
waste the effort. Shall I mark you in the anti list?

[Yarko]

Just to be sure everyone is clear on this:

[1] -- We appreciate the creative outlets and contributions of
everyone; new ideas are always nice to see.

However, Massimo has already selected a Logo, it is part of the
manual and web site, this group, and has gone to publisher (this was
announced some time ago).

[2] -- This so called "POLL" is weheh's personal idea, and his
interest - it will in NO WAY affect the current logo.

Since I don't want there to be any confusion around this, I will close
this thread. Please drop discussions of "polls" and "voting" for
logos. That time is well over now.

If you have ideas or concepts you want to share with the community, of
course feel free to do so. I just want to be sure there is no
confusion - there is no change in logo planned (nor was a poll or
voting requested by the project).

Let me know privately if you have any questions or concerns.

Kind regards,
Yarko