Symptoms point to broken spider but diags don't

[Mosfetman]

I have a Kenmore Elite HE3 front loader that is knocking loudly on the spin cycles. When I spin the drum manually, its perfectly smooth. There is virtually no drum play either front to back, side to side etc and all the springs are attached. Can I have a broken spider arm although the drum does not seem detached to me? 

Last question:

Is there a video out there on the disassembly/drum extraction?

Thanks,

Jerry

[Mosfetman]

I figured it out! I completely disassembled the washer...including the weights just to make it easier to handle. Keeping in mind that my main confusion was that the drum spun smoothly and that I did not have the play or slop associated with bearings that have totally failed. Here is what I found:

• There was play between the pulley and the shaft seating..I could deflect the pulley's outer rim over 1/4" front to back.
• There was much black powder spewed around the outer bearing/pulley.
• It appears that the outer seal plate to the outer bearing had come into contact with the pulley and ground itself down to the point to where the pulley was now lose dur to the additional clearance.
• There is damage to the spring ring..I could use some help finding a new one.
• The spider is solid

So , the knocking was from the slop between the pulley and the shaft. I will order new bearings, seal, and spring ring and check fit again. If the pulley's front race was "ground", I will have to turn a custom spacer as well.

Jerry

[Jerrod Sessler]

Jerry,

Sounds good.  This is an odd situation and not one that I have heard of before.  My guess was going to be that the spider was broken but still holding (cracked) as I have seen them where they crack in such a way that they still work for a while.

Good job taking it apart.  Removing the weights take a few extra minutes but it sure make the job easier if you are working alone.

Thanks for all the details. That really helps others as they dive into these repairs.

Jerrod

[Jerrod Sessler]

Jerry,

So, was the pulley bolt loose?  I want to make sure I am following what the problem is.  When you say spring ring, are you talking about the spring inside the seal?  If so, the new seal comes with a new one.

Thanks,
Jerrod

[Mosfetman]

Yes, the pulley nut was lose. The part that was eaten away was the seal (cover) to the bearing. The only way I can see that happening is if the play caused by the loose pulley wore the pulley to the point that it allowed it to contact that part of the bearing..in which case I will need a new pulley.

So the spider had a lot of calcium deposits. I used a pool descaler to clean it up and today I will use a small wire wheel  as well. There are no cracks but there are a few perforations on the inner pockets. 

Has anyone thought of this: 

-If and only if there are no cracks and you have removed all corrosion

1. Fill the inner pockets with epoxy

2. fill the outer pockets with expanding foam

3. wrap the whole thing with fiberglass cloth and polyester resin being careful not to allow any leaks.

This would provide a little more structural integrity but more important it stop future corrosion. 

I should have cleaned up and inspected the spider more carefully prior to ordering the kit. I think that if I find a way of stopping the corrosion, I could get a couple more years out of the spider. Everyone talks about a $200 basket/spider but all the ones I have found are $400

Jerry

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:49:27 PM UTC-5, Mosfetman wrote:

[Jerrod Sessler]

Jerry,

I think that coating the spider is a good idea.  Just need to be careful to keep it in balance and make sure that you don't build up so much thickness on it that it rubs on anything.

I have normally cleaned the spider and put it back into service if it is as you described.  I do agree that coating it is a good option.

Thanks,
Jerrod

[Mosfetman]

Jerrod, 

The more I clean mine, the more holes I see. I've decided not to spend anymore time on it. Instead, I'm sending it off to China to see how much I can have them made for. LG sells their replacement spiders for $70. Do you think there is a market for these at that price point? 

Jerry

[Jerrod Sessler]

Jerry,

I have thought of the same path but have not pulled the trigger.  The draw backs that I see:

1) If the manufacturer caught wind of it, they could easily start selling the single component and nullify the tooling investment

2) The tooling would be a significant investment even in china terms

3) The piece price could be really reasonable but one would need to be willing to carry significant inventory because of the MOQ requirements & shipping costs.

4) There are at least a dozen different spiders that I know of and probably many more.  So, we would have to make tools for each of these and carry inventory for all.

5) Even though the quality could easily be better than the manufacture parts, it would always be perceived to be a knock off.  For example, I would love to make them in pot metal or whatever they are using and then seal them with some sort of epoxy or similar so they never rotted out or had a problem.  This would be an improvement and would increase the manufacturing costs but would have to be taught to the consumer through the sales process.

Thanks,
Jerrod

[torch]

In the Kenmore HE3 video, Jerrod points out that one arm is broken, he says the spider comes off with 6 bolts and he is going to remove it and order a new one. I can't find it listed separately anywhere and I gather from what you guys are saying, the part is not available separately?

Looks like maybe Whirlpool has updated the entire assembly. There's a parts substitution and the picture looks like the spider may have been changed to stamped SS.

[Jerrod Sessler]

correct, most of the manufactures do not sell it separately.  you have to purchase the drum assembly which can be pricey.  LG has the spider separate for some models.

Jerrod

[torch]

Looks like Whirlpool may be calling  that part a "support" rather than a "spider". I found 2 different ones so far:

 http://www.appliancepartspros.com/whirlpool-support-8540342-ap3955972.html
and
http://www.appliancepartspros.com/whirlpool-support-w10202464-ap4482328.html

The first cross-references to a machine that takes different bearings than mine, so the shaft must be different. The second to a machine that takes the same bearings, but a different seal. As the seal goes in the outer tub, that may or may not mean anything. I wonder what the odds are that the spider, or support, or whatever it may be called, would actually fit but is not listed as such?

[torch]

UPDATE:

Accepting the fact that I had to replace the entire inner drum just to get the spider, I started shopping. Local brick-and-mortar shops were of no help.

Appliancepartspros doesn't ship outside the US. The next best price that does ship here was "Appliance Parts 365". The website said they had it in stock and I ordered it, paying for expedited shipping with an estimated delivery time of 3-5 days. After 6 days, I hadn't even received an order confirmation other than the Paypal notification. No response to e-mails, and their phone number went to a garbled voicemail message. The number traced to an unlisted cell phone. I never ever heard from them but suddenly I had a Paypal refund with the comment that the part was no longer available.

Next I tried "Appliance Zone". The website claimed it was in stock, and the shipping was surprisingly reasonable. Perhaps I should say "suspiciously reasonable". So I contacted them and specifically asked if they had it in stock or were relying on another company's claims and had them verify the shipping costs. They assured me they had it in their own warehouse and the shipping was correct. I ordered it. 8 hours later they sent me a bill for additional shipping charges, quadrupling the original quote. I told them to either honour their commitment or cancel the order. They claimed they had to check with their supplier to see if it had been shipped yet before they could cancel. At least they are consistent -- 2 questions, 2 lies.

It took Sears 6 days to tell me the part is no longer available. Now the only way to get the spider is to buy the entire drum assembly -- both outer and inner. New machines are cheaper.

So I bought a new machine.  After much research I ended up buying another of these spider-inflicted machines. However, I made sure that the spider is listed as a separate part.

Looking at the original, the corrosion and pitting seem concentrated towards the centre. I think this suggests the corrosion is primarily chemical in nature, not electrolysis. I think the outer part of the spider gets rinsed better and the centre stays saturated in soap residue.

So I took my brand-new, still in the wrapper washing machine and disassembled it. So much for the warranty, but then, that warranty has been proven pretty much useless anyway. I stripped out the spider, washed it thoroughly in degreaser and hot water. Then I washed it in a 50/50 solution of white vinegar and water, scrubbing it in with a scouring pad. I had the solution in a spray bottle and where it beaded on the surface, it needed more scrubbing. It would sheet nicely were the oxides had been etched off by the vinegar solution. Once clean down to bare aluminium, I applied 3 coats of zinc chromate primer:

 

That was followed by 3 coats of catalyzed alkyd enamel outboard motor paint:


 

The shape of the spider was obviously different than the old one, but I had to try anyway:
 

Nope, not even close. I guess I wasted my money on the bearing and seal kit. (I would now advise anyone thinking of buying the bearings that they first inspect the spider). They won't even fit the new machine when the bearings wear out 8 or 9 years from now. But hopefully, when that happens the spider will still be protected:

 

Now, will somebody please explain to me why the factory couldn't do something similar in the first place???

[Mosfetman]

Beautiful job on the etching Zinc primer and paint job. Thats exactly what I intend to do with my next front loader. I chose to simply reinforce my pitted spider with various resins, epoxies, and reinforcing materials. As you know, when aluminum alloys begin to corrode, there is no stopping it so I saw no point in doing anymore with mine other than cleaning off most of the calcium and corrosion and re-assembling. 

I'm wondering in the Zinc etch/paint method is preferable to powder coating? Any thoughts? 

Jerry

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:49:27 PM UTC-5, Mosfetman wrote:

[torch]

The chemical resistance of liquid paint vs powder is a function of the resins used to make the coating, not the method of application. There are some highly chemical-resistant powder coats available, but that's not something the average handyman can do himself as the equipment is kind of expensive. This I could do with nothing more than a relatively inexpensive spray gun (which I already had). The big advantage of powder coating is the inherent bonding to the base metal, but the etching step ensures the zinc chromate will chemically bond to the aluminium so I have no fears there.

[big...@yahoo.com]

I agree with you about the corrosion being chemical, not galvanic.

I also believe that the new spider will be less likely to suffer corrosion and be one of the sources of foul odours as there are no recesses close to the hub that can retain 'water' which can turn corrosive and/or foul smelling. For my reasoning on this please visit http://www.designnews.com/messages.asp?piddl_msgthreadid=243692&piddl_msgid=564927#msg_564927   with my apologies for its length.

[torch]

Interesting read, and I have to agree not only about the corrosion but also the bearing loads. I don't see why they couldn't have included some sort of rollers at the front of the drum for support.

[Jerrod Sessler]

Torch-

This is so awesome!  I have never gotten gitty over a post in this forum until today!  I love the approach of coating the spider with a brand new machine.  I would ask the same question... "why on earth can't the manufacture do that for us?"

For the bearing comment, I didn't understand that.  We provide lots of bearings for replacement on older machines and they work just fine.  I see what you mean however if the spider is bad.  I also loved your proactive approach to finding out if the spider is sold separately before you buy a new machine.  Why support companies that are not going to take care of us on the back end.  Good thinking!

This makes me wonder if we could talk the sales people into getting as an extra spider when we buy a new machine.... prob not hu... do you think they would even know what you are talking about?

If you did order a kit then just send it back to us.  Amy will credit you if you didn't use it.

Blessings-

Jerrod

[rjk...@comcast.net]

Torch,

Are you saying that the inner SS drum with the spider is now NOT available and that you have to buy the inner and outer drum just to get a new spider?

 

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:34:04 PM UTC-8, torch wrote:

[torch]

Jerrod,-

Let me clarify the bearing comment ("I wasted my money on the bearing and seal kit"):

I have no complaint against the parts you supplied. The bearings are Chinese-made, but C3 spec, indicating a tighter manufacturing tolerance than run-of-the-mill general purpose bearings of that size. Despite their reputation, the Chinese are learning to build some quality stuff. The seal is not identical to the original but is a double-lip seal of the correct size and material so I believe it is functionally equivalent and will keep the water in the drum and the grease in the bearing recess. I would have happily used the kit had I not found the spider to be destroyed. So to reiterate and restate:

Investigate the spider before ordering bearings. If the spider is serviceable or if you happen to have a machine for which the spider is available separately, then go ahead and order the bearing/seal kit from Jerrod.

The fault is my own, for ordering the kit before disassembling the machine. She Who Must Be Obeyed complained the machine was making a "thumping" noise. I investigated, found excessive play in the front end of the drum and ASSUMED the only problem was worn bearings. Then I went looking for new bearings and Google led me to your site. Your video even shows a defective spider, however you mention ordering a new spider so I didn't realize they were not available for my 9-year-old machine, and my attitude was "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it". Let's face it, the spider is something that obviously SHOULD be available separately. Whirlpool seems to have found a loophole in the laws requiring them to make spare parts available for a minimum of 12 years following the last date of manufacture by requiring consumers to buy a much more expensive "assembly".

Buying another machine from the same group of bandits left a really bad taste, but careful research of available machines showed the others are as bad or worse in many respects. We really need a low-water use machine to minimize demand on the well and septic systems. Even so-called HE top loaders use more water. Direct drive is touted as the greatest innovation since sliced bread but the reality is marketing hype fixing problems that don't exist. This machine replaced a German make because it took weeks to order parts and cost a small fortune (it went through suds pumps like a kid goes through candy; about 1 every year and a half. Then the motor control board went and took the motor with it). LG apparently supplies parts only to their own service people who are few and far between. Etc. etc. It really boiled down to "better the devil you know..." Up until now, we were happy with the machine. It did it's job, cleaned well and had no other issues than the spider and bearings. I don't mind replacing the bearings after almost a decade of use and figured I could correct the spider defect.

And yes, despite my precautions, I am tempted to order a spare spider now, while they are still available. Assuming they really are still available!

[torch]

Yes, that is what Sears is telling me. The guy was really good about chasing this up the food chain to the manufacturer to verify. He called me back after 2-3 days to let me know he was still working on it then called again at the end of the week to confirm what he told me originally. Note that this was for my machine and other machines may differ.

The inner tub and spider ("basket" in Whirlpool terminology) was part number 8181668. This has been superseded by part number W10269756-ASSY. Included is:
Outer Tub (which of course includes the bearings and seal)
Tub Gasket
Stainless Steel Basket (which of course includes the spider)
Front Counterweights
Rear Counterweight

Ok, I can accept that the defective spider might cause damage to the outer drum, so maybe Whirlpool's lawyers insist it must be changed too. But the concrete counterweights??? The cost of shipping something that large and heavy pushed the price up over the cost of some new machines! I really think this is just a ploy to avoid their legal obligation to stock replacement parts.

[big...@yahoo.com]

I do not know if it applies to your new machine or not but some of the newer Whirlpool built machines that have a spider available separately do not have the rear section of the outer drum available separately, you have to purchase both the front and rear sections together.

Love the reference to "She Who Must Be Obeyed", Rumpole was a brilliant series.

One design defect of the direct drive motor machines is that when the spider shaft seal fails it is almost certain that damage of some sort will be done to the motor.

On the subject of seals for washing machines there is an interesting website at: http://www.rlhudson.com/shaft%20seal%20book/sample-industry5.html

One thing I did not mention in my posting in Design News is that sodium carbonate is hygroscopic. This means that any left in the 'water' at the end of the final rinse which is on the spider will not 'dry out' and will absorb moisture from the atmosphere thus remaining corrosive to the aluminium alloy spider and also, possibly adding to the mold/mildew and foul odour problems. It also of course calls into question the recommendations of some manufacturers' that the door be left open when the machine is not in use to allow it to 'dry out'.

[torch]

OH! BTW: if you are in the US, these guys are offering a fantastic deal on the assembly:

http://www.laundrypartsmarket.com/W10269756_p/lp-w10269756-assy.htm

Unfortunately for me, they don't ship outside the US.

[Thierry M.]

Hi Torch,

I too was blown away by the job you did in coating that new Spider !!!!

It shows true dedication to actually take apart a brand new (presumably high-end) machine, potentially voiding the warranty, in order to minimize the likelihood of recurrence of this problem 8 years down the road. !!!.

A big pat on the back to you, and to Jerrod for all the time and information he provides with his videos and with this forum, and to anyone who's participating.

This thread prompted a few questions I was hoping you could answer:

1.) In the photos of your original spider, I don't see any crack. Yes its mucky and corroded, but unless there's a crack I don't see, I would've expected a few more years from it. Was it actually cracked? Or you just figured it was about to go? 

2.) Where did you get Zinc Chromate primer? I thought that stuff was banned? In case I/others wanted to go that route, can you give a brand, product name, and where to buy for the primer and the outboard motor paint?

3.) What would you recommend for a spider that has no cracks but mild-to-moderate corrosion. Would you have used the Zinc Chromate primer and the alkyd paint? Or would you instead have reinforced the place where the spider arms begin which is where it seems to break, using epoxy, JBWeld, fiberglass cloth and bondo (epoxy resin or polyester resin).

[torch]

biguggy,-
An interesting link. I may have to cut open the old seal just to see what the lip angles actually are. I'm no expert on seals, but double-lip seals do a great job of keeping the water and oil separate in my outboard motors. Of course, the prop shaft is only spinning about 1/5th the speed of the washer at high spin. And yes, damage to the direct drive motor seems quite likely if the seal fails. Besides, I'm not seeing a lot of complaints about broken belts and failed motors on the traditional machines so I think some of the touted advantages are mere marketing hype.

Thierry,-
1. My spider was most definitely cracked. One leg was broken right across, and I don't think the others were far behind. Some of the holes could pass a nickle. I did contemplate some sort of temporary repair, possibly tieing the spider to the drum itself for additional strength but the more I poked and prodded, the more I realized I was just kidding myself and wasting my time. If there was more there, if there was no crack, then it might buy some time and be worthwhile.

2. I used a Dupli-Color spray bomb of zinc chromate from the automotive supply section in Canadian Tire. It seems readily available around here and was manufactured in the US. Distributed up here by Sherwin-Williams. Any chance you are thinking of strontium chromate primer? The alkyd enamel is BASF's Limco-1. It is a 3-part system mixed 8 parts paint: 4 parts reducer: 1 part catalyst (a.k.a. "hardener"). I restore old outboards as a hobby so it was left over from this summer's project (a 1959 Golden Jubilee edition Evinrude Lark -- the colour is "Platinum Mist" and was only used for that one year and one motor.) Many automotive paint manufacturers made a similar product, although they are being phased out in favour of low-VOC (ie: "water-based") paints. Another good alternative would be an automotive urethane enamel or a 2-part epoxy paint, often available at marine supply shops.

3. If mine had been in salvageable condition, I would have cleaned it up thoroughly by wire-brushing (always use brass or nylon on aluminium, never steel) or even better, media blasting. Then etched with the vinegar solution and primed with zinc chromate before any reinforcing. There's no point in allowing the aluminiium corrosion to continue underneath the reinforcing, is there? Zinc chromate not only acts as a primer to improve adhesion, it chemically reacts with the aluminium to protect it from further corrosion. Epoxy would be my first choice (and JB weld is a kind of epoxy) but I think polyester resin would be fine if topcoated with a paint to seal it. "Kitty hair" type filler would be preferable IMHO to glass cloth in the tight crevaces just because it would be easier to work with than cloth. I would start by wetting out the surface with a thin coat (you can thin polyester resin with a dash of acetone, but acetone will dissolve many epoxies).  If by "Bondo" you mean the body filler, it won't really offer any benefit of reinforcement.

All that said, it's just my 2¢, and worth just as much as the price, since I am no expert. I could be completely wrong about any or all of the above. It's just what I would do, not necessarily what you should do.

[thinkngrl]

Hi torch - I'm new to the game here so sorry to bring up old wounds.  My FL started making horrible noise over the past weekend.  I took it apart and found the spider arms cracked off on two of three sides.  Luckily (?) I was still able to order the inner basket assembly as opposed to the whole kit 'n caboodle option you had.  I got the new basket and I've pulled the new spider in order to coat with 'Gluvit'. This is an epoxy product for aluminum boat hulls.  What do you think?  Will this be durable, or should I follow your steps and use the outboard motor paint process?

I've also order the bearing seal here and gotten new bearings. My machine is 13 years old and I hope to get another 8 years out of it at least.

Anyone else have some input?

Thanks to all!

L

[torch]

I'm not familiar with that specific product, but epoxy coatings tend to be very tough. You don't have to worry about UV light exposure inside the washing machine so from the little I just read about it, it shouldn't need to be overcoated. From the surface preparation instructions, the vinegar/water etch would be appropriate to ensure good mechanical adhesion. Personally, I think zinc chromate primer is one of the best corrosion protections for aluminium. From their description, it may not be necessary. You could always contact them and ask about the compatibility if you wanted.