Electric bikes on greenways

[John Norris]

This is a significant issue, and there will be opposition. I’m curious about the views of members of this group. I am generally supportive of allowing electric bikes on greenways for the following selfish reasons (though they surely apply to a good many others):

 

1.      There will probably come a time within the next 15 years (I’ll be 84 in 15 years) when I will want an electric bike for trips of more than a couple of miles and may need one for any hills of consequence;

2.      There are already times when I would like an electric bike to get to meetings in hot weather without arriving drenched in sweat; and

3.      If and when I acquire an electric bike, I don’t want to be limited in where I can ride it.

 

I think a lot of non-cyclists don’t realize that a fit cyclist can easily ride a non-motorized bike at 18+ miles an hour on flat ground and that a group of fit riders drafting off each other can easily ride at 20+ miles an hour. My guess is that most people riding an electric bike are likely to be relatively well-behaved and to ride at slower speeds on greenways than a lot of cyclists on non-motorized bikes. An absolute ban strikes me as illogical and unfair.

 

But what do others think. My guess is that this issue will be addressed fairly soon and that any decision will be controversial.

 

John

 

[Carey Rogers]

It came up during the debate over the dockless scooter/bike legislation.  A couple of councilmembers wanted to ban motorized vehicles from greenways. For some reason I think they were more concerned about scooters than e-bikes.   We convinced them to hold off for a broader discussion. I believe that certain e-bikes are legal on Metro greenways today and have been since 2016 when the state law on e-bikes passed.

 

 

Here’s my analysis of the current situation:

 

 

 

Metro park rules prohibit motorized vehicles from greenway trails and this would include electric scooters and electric bikes.

 

https://www.nashville.gov/Parks-and-Recreation/Greenways-and-Trails/User-Rules.aspx

 

 

Tennessee Code Annotated 55-8-306 is clear that certain electric bikes as defined in TCA 55-8-301 (Class 1 and Class 2) are allowed on all trails and greenways unless “by resolution or ordinance” the local government has prohibited them.

 

There is no Metro ordinance prohibiting electric bicycles from greenway trails therefore Class 1 and Class 2 electric bikes are allowed by state law because that preempts any Metro park rules . I cannot find any Metro ordinance banning e-bikes from greenways (or anywhere else).

 

Electric scooters are banned from greenway trails by park rules.  The legislation on dockless vehicles essentially treats the scooters as bicycles, i.e. ride in the street or bike lane and not on the sidewalk. They should be allowed anywhere bicycles are including greenway trails.

 

 

 

 

I don’t think anyone should be allowed to make rules about e-bikes until they have ridden one.  We discussed having a “ride an e-bike day” for council members, park board members, etc.  There is a new e-bike store opening in East Nashville soon if anyone wants to go try out an e-bike.

 

John, were you at the last Greenways Commission meeting? My understanding is there was a discussion of this issue?

 

Here’s a good summary of talking points from the e-bike industry.

 

https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/E-Bike-FAQs-and-Talking-Points.pdf

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[John Norris]

Good analysis Carey. I'll respond further tomorrow (today is my wedding anniversary).

I was at the Greenways Commission meeting, and the discussion of e-bikes was brief.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Zijlstra, Andries (University)]

Thanks Carey,

I thought most of this regulation was due to the behavior of people on motorized vehicles (in this case speed).

Banning an entire group of vehicles seems a bit shortsighted when the main goal is for everybody to enjoy the greenways.

Electric vehicles have the potential of enabling mobility in people that would otherwise not go out there. 

I think that regulating speed and passing behavior is more relevant than wether or not your bike has an electric motor. Is that something that can be considered by council?

Considering the differential in speed, the ultimate solution is dedicated lanes for cars, bikes and pedestrians but that is not likely to happen any time soon.

Cheers,

Andrew

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[Thomas Grooms]

I oppose.  Motorized vehicles have no place on Greenways.  Just as Nashville's car drivers have no respect for traffic laws or speed limits, I submit to you that the majority of folks operating these bikes will have no respect for pedestrians or cyclists.  I have witnessed enough irresponsible and disrespectful bicyclists on the Greenways to conclude that these motorcycles will be a threat and hazard to walkers and bicyclists.

Tom Grooms

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[Carey Rogers]

I hate it when you crotchety old people  start the descent into senility.

Have you ever ridden an electric bicycle? They are not motorcycles.

I would submit that anyone who has not ridden an ebike is speaking with insufficient information.

 

Those jerks of which you speak are all riding regular bicycles. We should regulate behavior not technology.

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[John Norris]

I disagree Tom. There's not a hammerhead on the planet who would be caught dead riding an e-bike. E-bikes are for serious commuters and those who need an occasional assist.

Sent from my iPhone

[Edwin Williamson]

Tom,

I would invite you to come see our selection of Faraday ebikes. They look and feel like regular bikes. We have sold several to senior citizens who will never go very fast on them, but they will ride more because they are easier to ride. Class 1 electric bikes receive no assist over 20 mph, and it takes some effort to get to that high a speed.

Check them out online at https://www.faradaybikes.com/

Make an appointment to ride one at:  https://www.morebikenashville.com/

More bikes, less cars,

Edwin (biased, obviously, as an owner of an company selling pedal assist bikes)

 

[pete.we...@gmail.com]

I absolutely believe electric assist bikes belong on greenways. As someone who recently (2 months ago) bought an electric assist cargo bike (which I love), and who has taken the bike on the greenway many times (usually with my toddler on the back), I've had typical greenway experiences: sometimes I pass other cyclists, other times they pass me. My ebike's governor kicks in at 20 mph, but if I've ever gone over 15 mph on the greenway, its been a limited moment.

I'm also supportive of electric scooters (provided the governor limits them to 15 mph), because greenways are a part of the transportation network, and the more options people have to utilize shared mobility or anything else other than a single passenger vehicle trip is a good thing.

As I've been thinking about greenways and who uses them, I think there's two issues of safety: space and speed. Bikes (whether regular or ebike) take up less space than a rollerblader or even some strollers. All of these uses seem fine to me; when there are choke points, there's no need for passing or turning lanes -most people slow down and use vocal and visual cues to pass safely. I think most agree that the 15 mph limit is reasonable for all users, and I think most riders of all bikes generally do a pretty good job of adhering to this (most of my riding is in Shelby Bottoms or near Metro Center, so I can't speak to other greenways). I often argue that a well designed street doesn't really need a posted speed limit; lane widths, building setbacks, on-street parking, street trees, etc often provide guidance to travelers about the appropriate speed. I think the same principle applies to greenways: I wouldn't feel safe going much faster than 15 mph on a vast majority of the greenways.

Pete W

[Thomas Grooms]

Peter,

You prove my point.  You choose not to do 20 miles per hour on the Greenway but others will not.  This speed is a significant hazard to walkers and legitimate bicycle riders.  Motorcycles, and I repeat, motorcycles should NOT be allowed on the Greenways.

Tom

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[Thomas Grooms]

Interesting. 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 12:27 AM pete westerholm <pete.we...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tom, 

With all due respect, if you're equating an electric assist bicycle with a motorcycle, then you're not really trying to engage in a serious or meaningful conversation. And you clearly overlooked the part where I stated (or perhaps I didn't state it clearly) that I've been passed many times by regular bicycles (some of which were speeding, some of which were not). We agree excess speed can be a danger. I suppose you're assuming electric assist bicycles speed on the greenway at a higher rate than regular bicycles, perhaps? I've not seen any evidence of this, but I'm open to that conversation and possible solutions, but saying no to ebikes makes as much sense as saying no spandex on the greenways because riders wearing spandex tend to speed. 

In the meantime, I'd reemphasize that ebikes democratize bicycling. They make hills and heat less daunting, making people of a wider range of fitness levels comfortable riding. They also decrease the speed differential between car traffic and bikes in mixed traffic, such as downtown or parts of the urban core, giving most riders more confidence. With 40%+ of our trips being less than 3 miles, ebikes and yes, scooters, allow more people to seriously consider an alternative to a single passenger car trip, and greenways are a part of our transportation network. As more people experience them, they're going to become more popular, and rightly so. 

Pete W

[pete westerholm]

Tom, 

With all due respect, if you're equating an electric assist bicycle with a motorcycle, then you're not really trying to engage in a serious or meaningful conversation. And you clearly overlooked the part where I stated (or perhaps I didn't state it clearly) that I've been passed many times by regular bicycles (some of which were speeding, some of which were not). We agree excess speed can be a danger. I suppose you're assuming electric assist bicycles speed on the greenway at a higher rate than regular bicycles, perhaps? I've not seen any evidence of this, but I'm open to that conversation and possible solutions, but saying no to ebikes makes as much sense as saying no spandex on the greenways because riders wearing spandex tend to speed. 

In the meantime, I'd reemphasize that ebikes democratize bicycling. They make hills and heat less daunting, making people of a wider range of fitness levels comfortable riding. They also decrease the speed differential between car traffic and bikes in mixed traffic, such as downtown or parts of the urban core, giving most riders more confidence. With 40%+ of our trips being less than 3 miles, ebikes and yes, scooters, allow more people to seriously consider an alternative to a single passenger car trip, and greenways are a part of our transportation network. As more people experience them, they're going to become more popular, and rightly so. 

Pete W

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:59 PM Thomas Grooms <tagr...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ryan Kamper]

I ride about 12-14 mph on greenways, and if I were lucky enough to get an e-bike, would turn the assist off in flat Shelby to not speed and not freak people out.

That's common sense. Some people will want to 'speed' with or without assist. And yes, it's almost a given with an e-bike.

But until someone is killed or hurt by this behavior on a greenway, I submit that e-bikes being allowed there is a non-issue.

It's the same with bikes in general-the more places they are disallowed or not welcome, the worse off and less healthy Nashville is.

Forcing someone to drive somewhere instead of traveling via greenway is no logical solution to the e-bike issue.

I am a very healthy rider, but drifting rapidly through middle age, and really want an e-bike for many trips.

Riding in the sprawl of Nashville is simply hard, hot, and steep, and reducing those barriers is a big part of making the city healthier and cycling an attractive option.

Ryan

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[Kari]

Say “motorcycle” and you conjure up a false image. We should get any deciders/stakeholders to go out on a greenway for a little discussion walk (or bike) as we parade different types of bikes past. Odds are they would not tell e+human powered bikes apart from human-only ones. I’ve ridden both; there are some great reasons to go ‘e’, but don’t expect your neighbors to notice you’ve done it. It would be a far greater stretch to try and make them fit into an automobile-only traffic category than a bicycle category. Because they are bicycles.

I submit that the concerns raised should be addressed or legislated where necessary, based on the direct source of the problems. For example, if speed differences among path users is deemed a concern, then let’s look at where that is a safety or comfort issue and how best to address the problem. On steep descents, I go faster on my muscle bike in Percy warner than I have when riding an ebike.

Most importantly, folks, working out finer details of the increasing use of multimodal transit in the city? Not some imagined future, but actually seeing such an uptick in greenway and park use that we need to hammer some specific issues out? A surge in public outcry for more paths and bike lanes? These are problems to have! Perfect is the enemy of good.

[Thomas Grooms]

As stated earlier, the problem with your proposition and statements is reliance upon enforcement to control speed on the Greenways.  Ain't happening.

Tom

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[David Kleinfelter]

And Tom, as stated by several on this list, you apparently are not aware of what an e-bike is - at least one category. You seem to have ignored the people who have explained about the e-assist bikes where one must pedal and the top assisted speed is 20mph. That top speed requires significant effort by the cyclists, just like a non-e bike. So what possible objection can you have to those e-bikes being on greenways. Nora rides one. Carey rides one. Many, many others ride them. Are they to be banned from getting from point A to point B on greenways? I know you don't like change (witness your objection to the left side bike lanes on 15th/16th that are working well), but sometimes change is OK. 

If unduly assisted speed is the evil to be prohibited, then I'd argue that no bike with more than 3-4 gears should be allowed. The multi-sprocket cluster is only encouraging and enabling riders to exceed safe speeds.

David K.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Thomas Grooms <tagr...@gmail.com> wrote:

As stated earlier, the problem with your proposition and statements is reliance upon enforcement to control speed on the Greenways.  Ain't happening.

Tom

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:43 PM 'Kari' via Walking and Biking in Nashville <walking-and-biking-in-nash...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Say “motorcycle” and you conjure up a false image. We should get any deciders/stakeholders to go out on a greenway for a little discussion walk (or bike) as we parade different types of bikes past. Odds are they would not tell e+human powered bikes apart from human-only ones. I’ve ridden both; there are some great reasons to go ‘e’, but don’t expect your neighbors to notice you’ve done it. It would be a far greater stretch to try and make them fit into an automobile-only traffic category than a bicycle category. Because they are bicycles.

 I submit that the concerns raised should be addressed or legislated where necessary, based on the direct source of the problems. For example, if speed differences among path users is deemed a concern, then let’s look at where that is a safety or comfort issue and how best to address the problem. On steep descents, I go faster on my muscle bike in Percy warner than I have when riding an ebike.

Most importantly, folks, working out finer details of the increasing use of multimodal transit in the city? Not some imagined future, but actually seeing such an uptick in greenway and park use that we need to hammer some specific issues out? A surge in public outcry for more paths and bike lanes? These are problems to have! Perfect is the enemy of good.

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[Thomas Grooms]

David, 

I am slightly offended by your characterization of my opposition to the left sided bike lanes on Music Row as ill conceived, reactionary, and old school.  I can list my objections, but mainly it is the wrong-headedness of putting us to the left of automobile traffic whereas on every other street in town we are on the right.  Surely, you would agree that putting the bike lane to the right with car parking to the left would have imminently more natural and, consequently, safer!

 I can go on, including the threat of left turning cars on the many intersecting side streets.

Tom

On Aug 30, 2018 8:04 PM, "David Kleinfelter" <dklein...@gmail.com> wrote:

And Tom, as stated by several on this list, you apparently are not aware of what an e-bike is - at least one category. You seem to have ignored the people who have explained about the e-assist bikes where one must pedal and the top assisted speed is 20mph. That top speed requires significant effort by the cyclists, just like a non-e bike. So what possible objection can you have to those e-bikes being on greenways. Nora rides one. Carey rides one. Many, many others ride them. Are they to be banned from getting from point A to point B on greenways? I know you don't like change (witness your objection to the left side bike lanes on 15th/16th that are working well), but sometimes change is OK. 

If unduly assisted speed is the evil to be prohibited, then I'd argue that no bike with more than 3-4 gears should be allowed. The multi-sprocket cluster is only encouraging and enabling riders to exceed safe speeds.

David K.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Thomas Grooms <tagr...@gmail.com> wrote:

As stated earlier, the problem with your proposition and statements is reliance upon enforcement to control speed on the Greenways.  Ain't happening.

Tom

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:43 PM 'Kari' via Walking and Biking in Nashville <walking-and-bik...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Say “motorcycle” and you conjure up a false image. We should get any deciders/stakeholders to go out on a greenway for a little discussion walk (or bike) as we parade different types of bikes past. Odds are they would not tell e+human powered bikes apart from human-only ones. I’ve ridden both; there are some great reasons to go ‘e’, but don’t expect your neighbors to notice you’ve done it. It would be a far greater stretch to try and make them fit into an automobile-only traffic category than a bicycle category. Because they are bicycles.

 I submit that the concerns raised should be addressed or legislated where necessary, based on the direct source of the problems. For example, if speed differences among path users is deemed a concern, then let’s look at where that is a safety or comfort issue and how best to address the problem. On steep descents, I go faster on my muscle bike in Percy warner than I have when riding an ebike.

Most importantly, folks, working out finer details of the increasing use of multimodal transit in the city? Not some imagined future, but actually seeing such an uptick in greenway and park use that we need to hammer some specific issues out? A surge in public outcry for more paths and bike lanes? These are problems to have! Perfect is the enemy of good.

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[Rex Hammock]

It's all about speed and noise. If an assist bike (the opposite of a motorcycle) is limited to 15-20 miles per hour and is as quiet as a non-assist bicycle, there is no reason to ban them.

I'm for doing things to encourage people to ride bikes, not ban them. 

My wife wouldn't ride a bike with me because there are two hills between our house and a greenway.

I got her an "assist bike" and it has changed her whole attitude about bikes. 

She only uses the assist(ance) when riding up hills. 

Do you want to ban electric wheelchairs from greenways? Assist bikes can be compared to those electric devices easier than motorcycles.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 7:04 PM David Kleinfelter <dklein...@gmail.com> wrote:

And Tom, as stated by several on this list, you apparently are not aware of what an e-bike is - at least one category. You seem to have ignored the people who have explained about the e-assist bikes where one must pedal and the top assisted speed is 20mph. That top speed requires significant effort by the cyclists, just like a non-e bike. So what possible objection can you have to those e-bikes being on greenways. Nora rides one. Carey rides one. Many, many others ride them. Are they to be banned from getting from point A to point B on greenways? I know you don't like change (witness your objection to the left side bike lanes on 15th/16th that are working well), but sometimes change is OK. 

If unduly assisted speed is the evil to be prohibited, then I'd argue that no bike with more than 3-4 gears should be allowed. The multi-sprocket cluster is only encouraging and enabling riders to exceed safe speeds.

David K.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Thomas Grooms <tagr...@gmail.com> wrote:

As stated earlier, the problem with your proposition and statements is reliance upon enforcement to control speed on the Greenways.  Ain't happening.

Tom

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:43 PM 'Kari' via Walking and Biking in Nashville <walking-and-bik...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Say “motorcycle” and you conjure up a false image. We should get any deciders/stakeholders to go out on a greenway for a little discussion walk (or bike) as we parade different types of bikes past. Odds are they would not tell e+human powered bikes apart from human-only ones. I’ve ridden both; there are some great reasons to go ‘e’, but don’t expect your neighbors to notice you’ve done it. It would be a far greater stretch to try and make them fit into an automobile-only traffic category than a bicycle category. Because they are bicycles.

 I submit that the concerns raised should be addressed or legislated where necessary, based on the direct source of the problems. For example, if speed differences among path users is deemed a concern, then let’s look at where that is a safety or comfort issue and how best to address the problem. On steep descents, I go faster on my muscle bike in Percy warner than I have when riding an ebike.

Most importantly, folks, working out finer details of the increasing use of multimodal transit in the city? Not some imagined future, but actually seeing such an uptick in greenway and park use that we need to hammer some specific issues out? A surge in public outcry for more paths and bike lanes? These are problems to have! Perfect is the enemy of good.

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[Eddy Seals]

My $.02

If I were to get an e-bike, and I would really like to have one, I would not change the route I currently use with my TREK 7.3FX hybrid, conventional pedal bike.

The very idea of riding 70S (Harding Road) between White Bridge, past St Thomas then across 440 into the Vandy area.. sorry.. I will not do that again,  even on an e-bike - regardless.
Early morning that stretch of  2 lanes in a single direction, no bike lane, no shoulder, is a 50+mph raceway for automobiles. Not riding a bike there, even at 20mph when the Richland Greenway sits a few yards away. IF (if) Nashville decides to make infrastructure accommodation for bicycles, I'd reconsider. As is - nope.


Pete said, " I think there's two issues of safety: space and speed. Bikes (whether regular or ebike) take up less space than a rollerblader or even some strollers.."
I would add, a bicycle takes less space than the self-absorbed walking groups who center up on the greenway three and four abreast and refuse to allow anyone to interrupt their conversation to pass.. or the dog walkers who are on one side of the walkway while the dog, on the leash, explores the weeds on the opposite side.
[/mini_rant]
:)

[Edwin Williamson]

Oregon has ruled to allow them:

https://bikeportland.org/2018/08/31/state-parks-commission-approves-new-rule-allowing-e-bikes-on-paths-and-trails-288379

Edwin

[Kevin L]

TOPIC REVIVED?  Found you guys at random as it's a new topic I thought to explore as my Mother ages.  I work at a large Nashville-area healthcare DME supply store.  We sell copious amount of power mobility scooters and power chairs to enable people safely.  NOT the toys/rec cycles so many seem worried about.  96% of my power mobility devices max-out at 4-5  Average human jogging speed is 4-6mph.  I'd let any quiet, non-polluting electric on greenways and state the rules and speed limitations when others are in-sight.  No faster than a jog around others.  Pass on the left and announce yourself and pass SLOWLY, preferably after getting acknowledged.  Toot the little mousy horn these have and say passing on your left, please.  And WHEN they slide over (as necessary) driver creeps by and thank you.  Basic civility.  You can't legislate out idiots and a-holes no matter what.  Let the users and their cell phones self police.  Post who must yield everywhere!  

-

Started off on a rant, did I? Heh-heh!    TO MY POINT:  Mother's day coming, same day as Dad's birthday this year.  We lost Dad almost 2 yrs ago.  Mom is "alone" so to speak.  Want to go out and enjoy the day and get some sun and air and see the Springtime with being cooped up in the car.  How?  Go to the park walking trail or one of many area greenways with walking trails from 2-10 miles if you choose.  Mom can't walk that far, even half a mile, without maybe paying for it in her hip/knee the next 2 days.  What to do?  Someone says the word ADA if they ban mobility scooters...and you'll see how fast things change.

-

So, 2020, ARE there any rules for/against in Davidson/Williamson as far as anyone knows?

Thx!