Why the anti-Celtic hatred?
Robin Carmody
proud of their Englishness (nowt wrong with that in itself) but extend that
into utter, vicious, almost bloodthirsty contempt for the Celts?
Recently, Billy said to Stuart Kinnear that the Gaelic language was "out of
date and had no place in the modern world" (paraphrased). One could have
accepted that, if not necessarily agreed, from someone who had a
forward-thinking view of England, but coming from Billy, a man who once said
seemingly without irony that "if you can listen to Elgar and look out on the
countryside and you well up with pride then you can understand Englishness"
(or words to that effect) ... oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. For some of the
self-proclaimed "English nationalists" round here it seems that it is quite
appropriate to express "Englishness" in laughably outdated terms, but if
anyone shows any pride in the equivalent Celtic things, they are treated as
cranks and laughed at.
So why the double standard?
--
Robin Carmody, Portland, Dorset
Steve Glynn
"Robin Carmody" <ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:afvspu$2qb$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Because very few people in the Principality can be arsed to speak that
ludicrous language in the first place. Who was standing last in the queue
when they were giving out vowels?
The only point about Welsh is that it serves to distinguish between the
civilised South Walians and those miserable buggers in the North who can't
speak English and were last in the queue when vowels were being handed out,
spend half their time running round in nighties waving sickles, thus
frightening the sheep (who have, quite possibly, very good reason to be
scared of the Welsh, particularly if they're wearing wellies -- the Welsh,
rather than the sheep -- and who can't get used to the idea that Liverpool
is the capital of North Wales.
Oh, and the more intelligent North Walians (those who can raise the money
from their Social Security, paid for by the English tax-payer, and work out
how to say "please give me a one-way ticket to London" at the train station)
get out of the damn place as soon as they can and then spend most of their
time whittering on about "herath".
Now, who else can I offend?
Steve
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jimmy.daniels
"Steve Glynn" <steve...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ag1av0$ibup5$3...@ID-139981.news.dfncis.de...
What's up mate? Found some male DNA in your lamb chop? Keep eating it, you
may well still manage the England No 1 shirt.
> Oh, and the more intelligent North Walians (those who can raise the money
> from their Social Security, paid for by the English tax-payer, and work
out
> how to say "please give me a one-way ticket to London" at the train
station)
> get out of the damn place as soon as they can and then spend most of their
> time whittering on about "herath".
Hiraeth! Do try to get it get it right! One way ticket to London? How come
the population of North Wales is on the increase? Where are they all coming
from?. I think you need to get about a bit if you suggest London as a good
escape alternative. It's a sinus blocker unless you're wearing a gas mask.
Almost as bad as Katowice!
> Now, who else can I offend?
> Steve
If you spoke a smidge of truth instead of ranting like a mad man you might
manage that objective of offending someone. Laughable is at best, what you
have achieved here. Before you try again dimwit, do some research and whilst
you're at it also do some research to what damage your International
brainless lager lout Football fans have done to the UK image as a whole over
the last three decades.
Robin Carmody
news:NDXU8.4504$Go3....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> Hiraeth! Do try to get it get it right! One way ticket to London? How come
> the population of North Wales is on the increase? Where are they all
coming
> from?
English hippie types? (personal experience here)
--
Robin Carmody
Joseph Hutcheon
Scousers in shell suits?
geraint
news:ag1av0$ibup5$3...@ID-139981.news.dfncis.de...
<toriad>
> Who was standing last in the queue when they were giving out vowels?
<toriad o gach pur>
> Oh, and the more intelligent North Walians
<toriad>
> spend most of their time whittering on about "herath".
Obviously more intelligent than you. They'd at least know how to spell it.
hwyl!
geraint.
Wotan
Steve Glynn <steve...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ag1av0$ibup5$3...@ID-139981.news.dfncis.de...
>
I know a lot of people from Wales who would agree with you. :o)
Wotan
geraint <g...@beff.co.ukSPAM> wrote in message
news:aCZU8.13123$xU5.861143@wards...
Why the fucking hell would be WANT to know how to spell it -
and why should you think that was any indication of intelligence ?
Steve Smith
news:afvspu$2qb$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
bigots, and I speak as a half Welsh (bad luck Ivan), half English Briton who
choses to be English.
Steve
jimmy.daniels
"Wotan" <wo...@valhalla.net> wrote in message news:3d24...@212.67.96.135...
> > hwyl!
> > geraint.
Who said anything about a "Want" to know how to spell it? Sorry but if you
are to get your cynical address across, least you can do to avoid looking a
downright prat is to get your "wording" accurate. Much to do with
intelligence I'm afraid. Only a total prat would dare criticise any
foreigner in their language format and fail miserably in the very same
process to get the wording right. Mind you with the existence of the
Tabloids producing an avearge reading ability of eight for this UK of ours,
I'm not in the slightest bit surprised that these odd few arrogators naively
surface only to make a fool of themselves.
Marc Living
wrote:
><toriad o gach pur>
><toriad>
They're the only ones who'd want to.
--
Marc Living (remove "bounceback" to reply)
"The first objective of any tyrant in Whitehall would be to make
Parliament utterly subservient to his will; and the next to overturn or
diminish trial by jury ..." Lord Devlin (http://www.holbornchambers.co.uk)
Joseph Hutcheon
wrote:
>sgwennodd "Steve Glynn" <steve...@ntlworld.com> yn neges
What does it mean, however it's spelt?
jimmy.daniels
"Joseph Hutcheon" <j.hut...@jisc.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3d256ea8.2169799500@news.cis.dfn.de...
Longing or yearning for a return to what is lost or parted from.
Alex Macfie
> news:ag1av0$ibup5$3...@ID-139981.news.dfncis.de...
> <toriad>
> > Who was standing last in the queue when they were giving out vowels?
> Dunno. We managed to get 7 though.
>
has twelve vowels.
I mean, of course, vowel *sounds*, a much more useful sense of "vowel"
than vowel *letters*. Remember that the letter 'a' alone can represent
any of *eight* different vowel sounds.
French has about 15 vowel sounds, I think. The Scandinavian languages
each have some 20. Spanish, however, makes do with five. How many
distinct vowel sounds does Welsh have?
Alex
Blewyn
news:16158b65.02070...@posting.google.com...
Seven.
Blewyn
Wotan
Perhaps if you improved your grammar and syntax you would have
more credibility.
Robert Henderson
<ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> writes
Mmm...I wonder if a reservation for all the Welsh speakers could be set
up on Snowden? RH
>Robin Carmody
>
>
--
Robert Henderson
phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
Wotan
You mean like British independence and sovereignty - and the days
when people did not demand that you should spend time and
effort on irrelevant malicious Marxist diktats (aks "political correctness)
and their racial minority prejudices ?
jimmy.daniels
"Wotan" <wo...@valhalla.net> wrote in message news:3d25...@212.67.96.135...
> jimmy.daniels <jimmy....@virgi.net> wrote in message
> news:HL4V8.7244$Go3.2...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> Perhaps if you improved your grammar and syntax you would have
> more credibility.
I doubt that. A case of the pot calling the kettle black!
jimmy.daniels
"Wotan" <wo...@valhalla.net> wrote in message news:3d25...@212.67.96.135...
> > Longing or yearning for a return to what is lost or parted from.
> You mean like British independence and sovereignty - and the days
> when people did not demand that you should spend time and
> effort on irrelevant malicious Marxist diktats (aks "political
correctness)
> and their racial minority prejudices ?
It's a translation from someone else's post and the translation referred to
the word "Hiraeth" Do follow the thread.
jimmy.daniels
"Robert Henderson" <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:DdWqbcAA...@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> Mmm...I wonder if a reservation for all the Welsh speakers could be set
> up on Snowden? RH
If that could be arranged Robert, then those Welsh speakers could certainly
witnesses to the countless naive or so-called climbers from across the
border that keep on falling off "Crib Goch" every weekend. If only the
bookies would take bets. Must be "odds-on" or nearest damn it during Bank
holidays! BTW it's Snowdon not Snowden.
Steve Glynn
What does anything in Welsh mean?
As far as I can make out, the meaning of "herath" varies between
"homesickness", "thank God I'm out of that damn place" and "I miss my
mam", depending on how much the Welshman has had to drink, usually at the
English tax-payer's expense.
Steve
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Joseph Hutcheon
<steve...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>"Joseph Hutcheon" <j.hut...@jisc.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:3d256ea8.2169799500@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 16:08:26 +0100, "geraint" <g...@beff.co.ukSPAM>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >sgwennodd "Steve Glynn" <steve...@ntlworld.com> yn neges
>> >news:ag1av0$ibup5$3...@ID-139981.news.dfncis.de...
>> ><toriad>
>> >> Who was standing last in the queue when they were giving out vowels?
>> >Dunno. We managed to get 7 though.
>> >
>> ><toriad o gach pur>
>> >> Oh, and the more intelligent North Walians
>> ><toriad>
>> >> spend most of their time whittering on about "herath".
>> >Obviously more intelligent than you. They'd at least know how to spell
>it.
>>
>> What does it mean, however it's spelt?
>
>What does anything in Welsh mean?
I can translate the Welsh for phone and taxi, but that's about it.
>As far as I can make out, the meaning of "herath" varies between
>"homesickness", "thank God I'm out of that damn place" and "I miss my
>mam", depending on how much the Welshman has had to drink, usually at the
>English tax-payer's expense.
Hmmm.
billy
"Steve Glynn" <steve...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ag1av0$ibup5$3...@ID-139981.news.dfncis.de...
>
Steve Glynn - who, in this case has, made a Win:
A good posting.
The little tribe is envious of the big one - and it shows.
regards, billy
*************
billy
"Robin Carmody" <ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:afvspu$2qb$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Cock Robin,
There are many English people who "can listen to Elgar and well up with
pride."
There were millions of them doing just that and singing the Elgarian song
"Land of Hope and Glory" at the time of the Jubilee celebration (or were you
going through your old copies of the "Socialist Worker", at the time, to
notice this).
Also, there is no double standard in me pointing out that Gaelic is a
cumbersome language not suited to the modern age. For instance: it has no
structure to allow for female/male equality. It describes a Queen as a
"female king".
And by all means let the Celts (if there are such people) feel pride in
their tribalism. But they should be aware of its limitations and how much
they (the Celts, if there are such people) owe to the English.
I have always said: "Tribalism will out" - Scots, English, Croation,
Albanian, Slovak, Chechen, Irish, Welsh, Basque, Tamil, or any other.
I have never "laughed at" tribalism because it is one of the most potent and
praiseworthy instincts in human nature.
Where is the contradiction in this?
regards, billy
***************
Steve Glynn
"Alex Macfie" <al...@flagboy.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:16158b65.02070...@posting.google.com...
I give up. How many people think there is a major city and fishing port
in East Yorkshire called "Huth"?
Us Sais only do it to confuse the Welsh, you see. We don't do it that
often, since it's far too easy and it isn't sporting and before anyone tries
to tell me what is the Welsh for "sporting", I seem to recall that there
used to be a sport in Wales called Rugby League....
The most useful thing anyone ever did with the place was to flood most of it
so that Brummies had clean water to drink (and if an area's only claim to
fame is that it prevented Brummies from dieing of thirst, that really isn't
saying much).
Steve
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jimmy.daniels
> Us Sais only do it to confuse the Welsh, you see. We don't do it that
> often, since it's far too easy and it isn't sporting and before anyone
tries
> to tell me what is the Welsh for "sporting", I seem to recall that there
> used to be a sport in Wales called Rugby League....
The predominant Welsh sport is Football albeit to the dissapproval of the
S.Wales media that feed you what's going on in the Principality. Fallen for
the propaganda eh? The only thing I find confusing about you is your current
behaviour of actually behaving during a World cup tournament without causing
violence on foreign streets.. Well done boys! Credit to you!
> The most useful thing anyone ever did with the place was to flood most of
it
> so that Brummies had clean water to drink (and if an area's only claim to
> fame is that it prevented Brummies from dieing of thirst, that really
isn't
> saying much).
Flooding "IT" Which part of Wales became flooded and who benefited from this
LSD laced lake water? Please eleaborate! Another pathetic translation or
silence will suffice! BTW who casted anyone in thirst?
jimmy.daniels
> "Joseph Hutcheon" <j.hut...@jisc.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:3d256ea8.2169799500@news.cis.dfn.de...
> > On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 16:08:26 +0100, "geraint" <g...@beff.co.ukSPAM>
> > wrote:
> > What does it mean, however it's spelt?
> What does anything in Welsh mean?
What does anything in English mean in major dominant parts of Europe?. Let's
look at the broader picture. At a recent of many Berlin visits I witnessed
yet again that English and any Uk language is almost beyond comprehension.
In Poland, Ironically, the closest I could get to being understood was with
a Pole who understood in part and just so happened to study Welsh and I'm
being totally honest here, but the English language dare I say, was
virtually useless and you question what?????
> As far as I can make out, the meaning of "herath" varies between
> "homesickness", "thank God I'm out of that damn place" and "I miss my
> mam", depending on how much the Welshman has had to drink, usually at the
> English tax-payer's expense.
> Steve
No need to add VAT to the true meaning. It means "longing" Ignoramus, it's
Hiraeth not herath. Please elaborate on your context on this issue with the
relevance of tax-payers contributions? Of course, silence will more than
suffice!
jimmy.daniels
"billy" <jo...@billy100DELETETHISBITfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ag4gqk$6o0$3...@venus.btinternet.com...
> Steve Glynn - who, in this case has, made a Win:
> A good posting.
> The little tribe is envious of the big one - and it shows.
> regards, billy
But envious of what though? Some incredible performance? Some incredible
part of history? Admiration that you are late on board to being British?
Que! Surely you would'nt be in-directly "gloating" about being a mere part
of this larger section of this tiny UK island by accident of birth would
you??
jimmy.daniels
> Also, there is no double standard in me pointing out that Gaelic is a
> cumbersome language not suited to the modern age.
But who's modern age ?
> For instance: it has no
> structure to allow for female/male equality. It describes a Queen as a
> "female king".
You've managed to ut this conclusion into an entire Gaelic content.
Elaborate?
> And by all means let the Celts (if there are such people)
I would remind you that they were actually here before you and the other
in-migrants that today somehow refer to themselves as "the" indeginous.
Friggin bewildering!.
> feel pride in
> their tribalism. But they should be aware of its limitations and how much
> they (the Celts, if there are such people) owe to the English.
Oh they do exist and those same ones are everything in the UK that is'nt
English. Mind you, contrary to your aggressive stance towards the Celts,
there's nothing wrong with being English or representative of any other part
of the UK Why should they owe you anything? They were here before you! You
were rather late onboard and due to sheer numbers you represent of today's
UK majority, does that constitute merit? Don't think so, anymore that the
football fan says to his mates in the pub that "we" won the league. The same
twat was'nt even playing yet clings on to someone else's efforts. That twat
is rife in numbers it seems and in probably amongst the same naive bunch
that still believe that "Rule Brittania" actually still means anything worth
a toss. Went down with the Titanic mate! Get used to it!
Lyn David Thomas
>Perhaps if you improved your grammar and syntax you would have
>more credibility.
Perhaps if you ceased to cross post your racist drivel to so many
groups you would gain some credibility (though I doubt it).
Follow ups set.
--
\/ Lyn David Thomas
Webpages start at:
http://www.cibwr.freeserve.co.uk
billy
envious of the fact that the English has given to the world far more than
any other nation.
An aspect of this was displayed throughout the world in recent weeks, when
that English invention - football - now called the "beautiful game" - was
played.
Every major sport played in the world was invented by the English.
I could go on and on and on and not to mention the "universal language" we
are now using: which is called "English".
regards, billy
****************
Alex Macfie
> Also, there is no double standard in me pointing out that Gaelic is a
> cumbersome language not suited to the modern age. For instance: it has no
> structure to allow for female/male equality. It describes a Queen as a
> "female king".
I'm loath to start arguing with billy again but...
Please tell me a natural language which *does* "allow for female/male
equality". English doesn't. For example, tho' a Queen may be a Queen
and not a "female King", it, like all European languages has the
"he"/"she" issue (but unlike in other languages, this bothers some
people). In correct English (accoridng to Fowler), "he" should be used
to refer to someone of unknown gender, and there is no completely
natural alternative ("he/she", or "he or she", is cumbersome, while
singular "they" isn't correct grammar and can sound awkward).
I don't think there's any sense in which one language is "better" than
another. English has certain features which are clear advantages (eg
simple grammar, flexible, no honorific pronouns), but other obvious
flaws (eg its spelling is a complete mess). There's nothing inherent
in the language that caused English to become a world language. The
main reason is probably that North America was originally a British
colony, so causing English to emerge as the main language of the US.
Alex
jimmy.daniels
> "jimmy.daniels" <jimmy....@virgi.net> wrote in message
> news:0zqV8.3074$7i3.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> > But envious of what though? Some incredible performance? Some incredible
> > part of history? Admiration that you are late on board to being British?
> > Que! Surely you would'nt be in-directly "gloating" about being a mere
part
> > of this larger section of this tiny UK island by accident of birth would
> > you??
**************
> envious of the fact that the English has given to the world far more than
> any other nation.
And Invaded????
> An aspect of this was displayed throughout the world in recent weeks, when
> that English invention - football - now called the "beautiful game" - was
> played.
You did'nt give the World football. Is this how you view things whn
something starts something and it eventually takes off?. Since you're on the
subject of Football and gloat that you started it. Don't you find it rather
odd how third-World Natons knock out the English Inventors and that the
actual Inventors also hold the worst record on a Global scale for
hooliganism during Internatiionals for the last three decades?
> Every major sport played in the world was invented by the English.
Really? Why is it that other Nations dominate every single one now.?
> I could go on and on and on and not to mention the "universal language" we
> are now using: which is called "English".
Universal in aviation and that's about it. I suggest you go for a gander
across Europe if you want to see what dominates over there. Same Country
that dominates Europe in general: German everywhere. English is either
never spoken or rarely spoken as an additional language amongst many. The
American English because of it's blatant differences in spelling can be
argued to be another language and even that version is used on a wider scale
than the UK counterpart. So which English are you referring to.? The more
widely used "American modified" version or the much less used UK version?
I'm sure you could go on. Feel free to do so and then I would ask you, why
should anyone else be jealous of you "today" if all you gan gloat about are
the Laurels of your ancient ancestors?? Like McEnroe said ; Surely, you
can not be serious?
RF
slight variation is hardly a new language is it?
RF
jimmy.daniels
"RF" <spa...@thatsmybusiness.xyz> wrote in message
news:hQ%V8.22862$Ah5.17...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> I didnt see one American English word in your post.
You would'nt have. I'm British
>Besides which a
> slight variation is hardly a new language is it?
The point I was making was that the variation of the English Language, i.e
the American version, is more widely read and spoken than the English
original. BTW rather more than a slight variation I'd say. Who knows with
the everlasting sucking up to the Yanks by the Brits, the varation might
eventually become the norm?
gmcphee
billy wrote in message ...
LOL
Nice one billy
Football wasn't ,
Golf wasn't ,
motor racing wasn't,
Horse racing wasn't,
that most essentially *nglish sport 'polo' wasn't,
chariot racing wasn't,
yawn,
fishing wasn't
..........
Need I go on billy?........
LOL
gmcphee
Jack Sais
(in message <3qqV8.3059$7i3.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
>
> "Steve Glynn" <steve...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:ag4ece$ipvvp$6...@ID-139981.news.dfncis.de...
>
>> "Joseph Hutcheon" <j.hut...@jisc.ac.uk> wrote in message
>> news:3d256ea8.2169799500@news.cis.dfn.de...
>>> On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 16:08:26 +0100, "geraint" <g...@beff.co.ukSPAM>
>>> wrote:
>
>>> What does it mean, however it's spelt?
>
>> What does anything in Welsh mean?
>
> What does anything in English mean in major dominant parts of Europe?. Let's
> look at the broader picture. At a recent of many Berlin visits I witnessed
> yet again that English and any Uk language is almost beyond comprehension.
> In Poland, Ironically, the closest I could get to being understood was with
> a Pole who understood in part and just so happened to study Welsh and I'm
> being totally honest here, but the English language dare I say, was
> virtually useless and you question what?????
As an aside, I'm reliably informed that Germans are currently being taught
"English as the World Language" from the age of 9 (by a German teacher of
English who is teaching the said nine-year olds). Incidentally, who were you
talking to in Berlin? I've found that knowledge of English in Germany, and
also huge swathes of Europe from Scandinavia via Bohemia to the Iberian
peninsula is remarkable.
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Robin Carmody
>
> Universal in aviation and that's about it. I suggest you go for a gander
> across Europe if you want to see what dominates over there. Same Country
> that dominates Europe in general: German everywhere. English is either
> never spoken or rarely spoken as an additional language amongst many.
I'm afraid you're showing excessive Celtic anti-Englishness here, Jimmy.
Quite apart from the fact that Germans are basically aspirational
Anglo-Americans (the desire to distance themselves from the Nazi legacy
coupled with a post-war opposition to Gaullist France and Communist East
Germany created this tendency in West Germany, and globalisation and the
collapse of Communism have strengthened it), the German language is not to
my knowledge spoken on a significant scale in Scandinavia (where the great
majority can speak English) or in the Mediterranean countries (where
admittedly fewer speak English but even fewer know German). In eastern
Europe, the legacy of the Communist education system means that many know
Russian better than German.
There are also virtually no German-language records in the charts or
German-language films and programmes in the cinema and on TV in those parts
of Europe that do not speak German. The whole continent is saturated with
English-speaking culture (OK Holland more than France but you get my point)
and, while it is quite true that the majority of this is American (Britney
and J-Lo are huge on the continent, Steps and S Club 7 are unknown) the
German language is only dominant where it is the first language.
The
> American English because of it's blatant differences in spelling can be
> argued to be another language and even that version is used on a wider
scale
> than the UK counterpart. So which English are you referring to.? The more
> widely used "American modified" version or the much less used UK version?
Even if he is referring to American English, the fact is that this is the
only language spoken in every country of mainland Europe (obviously by a
higher percentage of the population of Denmark than is the case in Spain,
but *some* people know it everywhere). I would like to compare the
percentage of German speakers to English speakers in those European
countries where German is not a first language, because I suspect it would
pale in comparison.
--
Robin Carmody
Jack Sais
(in message <_EWV8.2436$Q12....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
English is taught as "The World Language" in German schools. It's a fact,
much as I hate to piss in the chips of a top bloke in these NG
:-)
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Robin Carmody
news:01HW.B94E6B0A0...@news.freeserve.net...
>
> English is taught as "The World Language" in German schools. It's a fact,
> much as I hate to piss in the chips of a top bloke in these NG
>
> :-)
It is the nature of the German people. They feel morally obliged to support
globalisation and US dominance because they fear that to question it would
be the first step to the Fourth Reich or, at the very least, the recreation
of the Communist system which once ruled in the East of the country (many
from what was East Germany are familiar with Russian, having been taught it
as the main second language while at school under Communism). However, many
Germans spoke fluent English well before it reached its current "world
language" status.
--
Robin Carmody
Jack Sais
(in message <agablq$dnp$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>):
I'd call it more of an acceptance of reality myself, and a means to provide
their offspring with a tool to maximise their employment opportunities. If
globalisation enables us to communicate rather than disembowel each other I'm
all for it :-)
==============================================================
jimmy.daniels
They may well be taught English in Germany. Those that take it up, do so as
a choice amongst many other languages including Spanish. I found many
instances during several Berlin visits whereby I had to use sign language
with Taxi drivers and at Berlin's Zoo Station for tickets. In restaurants
I've been referred to another waiter on more than one instance because it
is'nt a bog standard requirement. The further East you go towards Poland
then it becomes even more rare. That's certainly been my experience and up
till quite recent.
J.D
jimmy.daniels
> > English is taught as "The World Language" in German schools. It's a
fact,
> > much as I hate to piss in the chips of a top bloke in these NG
> >
> > :-)
> It is the nature of the German people.
Which Germans are you referring to?
> They feel morally obliged to support
> globalisation and US dominance because they fear that to question it would
> be the first step to the Fourth Reich or,
Morally obliged to support US dominance??? Name me one single UK Prime
Minister and his/her government that can honestly claim not to suck up to
the Americans. Please tell me you are joking. They've managed to transform
the UK into Us's 51st state for goodness sake. Yanks say jump, any UK Prime
Minister always asks "How high sir"? The US arse lickers are from this
Country.
>at the very least, the recreation
> of the Communist system which once ruled in the East of the country (many
> from what was East Germany are familiar with Russian, having been taught
it
> as the main second language while at school under Communism). However,
many
> Germans spoke fluent English well before it reached its current "world
> language" status.
It does have a World language status but so does the more widely spoken
Russian and Chineese. Throughout many parts of Europe you'd struggle with an
English-only ability.
jimmy.daniels
> jimmy.daniels <jimmy....@virgi.net> wrote in message
> news:_EWV8.2436$Q12....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> > Universal in aviation and that's about it. I suggest you go for a gander
> > across Europe if you want to see what dominates over there. Same
Country
> > that dominates Europe in general: German everywhere. English is either
> > never spoken or rarely spoken as an additional language amongst many.
> I'm afraid you're showing excessive Celtic anti-Englishness here, Jimmy.
I suggest you go for a gander on Google to see if there's any consistency
worth a toss in that claim. What I fail to do is believe as you do that the
World evolves around your train of thought. The Empire's dead and buried and
sold some considerable time ago down the river.
> Quite apart from the fact that Germans are basically aspirational
> Anglo-Americans (the desire to distance themselves from the Nazi legacy
> coupled with a post-war opposition to Gaullist France and Communist East
> Germany created this tendency in West Germany, and globalisation and the
> collapse of Communism have strengthened it), the German language is not to
> my knowledge spoken on a significant scale in Scandinavia (where the great
> majority can speak English) or in the Mediterranean countries (where
> admittedly fewer speak English but even fewer know German). In eastern
> Europe, the legacy of the Communist education system means that many know
> Russian better than German.
I suggest you travel around a bit more through Europe to see for yourself
that what you read and listen to in the Uk no longer applies or perhaps
never did. I've literally struggled communicating in English in Europe. I
would'nt have bothered even considering learning German if I thought for one
single minute that I would get by with English. May well not be music to
your ears, but to me it's reality. Since I'm not in the slightest
anti-English, I have no other reason other than to remind anyone who
believes this language is "the-all" and "end-all" as has been suggested or
hinted.
> There are also virtually no German-language records in the charts or
> German-language films and programmes in the cinema and on TV in those
parts
> of Europe that do not speak German.
How can you suggest such a thing when you conveniently omitt the fact that
the Germans dominate the Satellite channels right across Europe and have
done so since the dawn of the Astra era back in 1987. BTW No one in the Uk
may well be "totally" unheard of in Germany. Which charts are you actually
referring to? Uk songs don't make it over there. I remember asking someone
in Berlin if they'd heard of Robbie Williams? No came the reply! To claim
that German language films fail to make the cinema is utter bollocks. Not
over here, but over there they do.
> The whole continent is saturated with
> English-speaking culture (OK Holland more than France but you get my
point)
No I don't get your point. In France it's almost non-existence unless you're
communicating with the immediate accesses of the channel. I would'nt say
Amsterdam would be much to boast about either. Saturated my arse!
> and, while it is quite true that the majority of this is American (Britney
> and J-Lo are huge on the continent, Steps and S Club 7 are unknown) the
> German language is only dominant where it is the first language.
I would expect it to be dominant in Wold'nt you. For any single language
right across Europe I would argue with you that the German language is the
one to get you by if you were restricted to choose one. I'm not claiming
that all Europeans are fluent in German.
> Even if he is referring to American English, the fact is that this is the
> only language spoken in every country of mainland Europe (obviously by a
> higher percentage of the population of Denmark than is the case in Spain,
But that's not true though. It is spoken in all Countries and so is German
and so is Spanish for that matter. If you were to consider the whole Globe
would you still claim that most of the population speak English or would you
actually concede that more speak Russian and Chineese
> but *some* people know it everywhere). I would like to compare the
> percentage of German speakers to English speakers in those European
> countries where German is not a first language, because I suspect it would
> pale in comparison.
Some people would even speak Welsh everywhere. It seems you need a long
European trip and it also seems that you would be in for one big eye-opener.
Before seeing it for myself I also shared your current UK Western eyes.
jimmy.daniels
You're not pissing on my chips Jack and I hope you are also well aware that
I don't have an anti-English agenda here. I would'nt deny that English is
taught in German schools. Welsh is taught in every Welsh school and what's
the Welsh language spoken percentage of the population?
J.D.
Robin Carmody
>
> "Robin Carmody" <ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:agablq$dnp$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>
> Which Germans are you referring to?
With the exception of those in Communist East Germany 1945-1989 (a minority
of the overall German population), I am referring to those from 1945 onwards
who have gone out of their way - arguably gone too far - to apologise and
make up for the Nazi regime. One of the best and most obvious ways to do
this is to avoid any nationalistic talk or criticism of American culture.
The Nazis initially expressed their hatred of blacks and Jews in terms of
hatred of the music they created, because they knew that this would resonate
with people in a way that their crackpot "biological" ideas wouldn't. It
took less than a decade to get from the propaganda posters of grotesque
caricatures of black American jazz musicians to the Holocaust.
After the war, the East German regime was viciously anti-American, once
again couching it in terms of hatred for the popular culture. In the late
1950s they defined themselves against the presence of Elvis Presley on his
US Army service in West Germany, and on the day in 1958 that Bill Haley and
his Comets arrived to play the first rock'n'roll concert in Germany (as they
had done in Britain), when a West German minister announced that jazz
concerts were to be encouraged in the country, the East German minister of
defence said that Haley was promoting nuclear war by engendering fanatical,
hysterical enthusiasm among the German youth which would lead it to a mass
rock'n'roll grave (in other words East Germany was heading straight back to
Nazi territory). In 1959, a teenager was shot dead in East Germany for the
heinous crime of listening to rock'n'roll on the American Forces Network,
though this was only reported in Britain last year. In 1960 the East German
government jailed six Elvis fans for between one and two years for forming
an Elvis fan club and singing rock'n'roll songs in the street, and Presley
was named Public Enemy #1 by the Communist newspaper "Young World",
following a riot for which he was blamed. After 56 years (1933-1989) of
effective rule by dictatorships, East Germany was a hollow shell by the time
of reunification, a decaying, decrepid, ugly country, whose lumbering state
institutions made those of Britain in the late 70s look like Japan in the
boom years of the 80s by comparison.
With the dark history detailed above, could one possibly blame the Germans
for wanting to be as pro-American as possible in all things (they did, after
all, allow their army to be deployed outside Europe for the first time since
1945 during the so-called "War Against Terrorism")? Americophilia would
seem to be a natural response to, and a kind of apology for, all that was
hateful, oppressive and downright dangerous in their past.
> > They feel morally obliged to support
> > globalisation and US dominance because they fear that to question it
would
> > be the first step to the Fourth Reich or,
>
> Morally obliged to support US dominance??? Name me one single UK Prime
> Minister and his/her government that can honestly claim not to suck up to
> the Americans.
Attlee (too state socialist for any American's liking)
Heath (taking us into the EC pissed off Atlanticists on both sides of the
pond)
Callaghan (same reasons as with Attlee)
Please tell me you are joking. They've managed to transform
> the UK into Us's 51st state for goodness sake.
It is the ambition of many modern Germans to turn their country into the
52nd state. If it would take them away from the echoes of Nazism and
Communism, they would regard it as a price worth paying.
Yanks say jump, any UK Prime
> Minister always asks "How high sir"? The US arse lickers are from this
> Country.
I totally agree with you here Jimmy, but the Germans, driven by a desire to
make up for the dark shadows of their past, are trying to catch up with us.
> It does have a World language status but so does the more widely spoken
> Russian and Chineese.
Nobody speaks Russian or Chinese in, say, Scandinavia, which has a very
significant cultural, political and financial affinity with the UK. The
majority of Scandinavians speak English.
Throughout many parts of Europe you'd struggle with an
> English-only ability.
It is quite true that it always helps you in *any* country if you speak its
first language. However there are easily enough English speakers in Holland
and Scandinavia for a monolingual English speaker to get by without knowing
their language. Even in Mediterranean countries someone who only speaks
English can expect to be understood by *some* of the population. If you
only spoke Russian or Chinese, I doubt whether anyone at all in Rome, Madrid
or Barcelona would understand a single word you could say.
--
Robin Carmody
Robin Carmody
>
> I would'nt deny that English is
> taught in German schools. Welsh is taught in every Welsh school and what's
> the Welsh language spoken percentage of the population?
I would suspect that in places like Newport and Wrexham, the percentage of
English-speakers who speak Welsh as a second language is *much* lower than
the percentage of German-speakers who speak English as a second language in,
say, Hamburg or Stuttgart.
--
Robin Carmody
Robin Carmody
>
> I'd call it more of an acceptance of reality myself, and a means to
provide
> their offspring with a tool to maximise their employment opportunities. If
> globalisation enables us to communicate rather than disembowel each other
I'm
> all for it :-)
Your last line epitomises why anti-globalisation sentiments are viewed with
great wariness throughout German society, and with good reason.
--
Robin Carmody
Robin Carmody
>
> What I fail to do is believe as you do that the
> World evolves around your train of thought. The Empire's dead and buried
and
> sold some considerable time ago down the river.
I am not trying to deny that at all. The main reason for the current world
dominance of the English language is that the American Empire has taken its
place.
> I suggest you travel around a bit more through Europe to see for yourself
> that what you read and listen to in the Uk no longer applies or perhaps
> never did. I've literally struggled communicating in English in Europe.
Let me repeat: if I was going to a country with another first language I
would learn that language and speak it whenever I could. However if I was
going to any of the Mediterranean countries, I might give more priority to
learning their language than I would if I was going to Holland, simply
because, if I could not articulate myself in the native language, fewer
people would be able to speak English and therefore we would not be able to
converse. I value and respect the diversity of languages on the continent -
I simply acknowledge that English is the most *widely*-spoken language in
the world today.
> I
> would'nt have bothered even considering learning German if I thought for
one
> single minute that I would get by with English. May well not be music to
> your ears, but to me it's reality. Since I'm not in the slightest
> anti-English, I have no other reason other than to remind anyone who
> believes this language is "the-all" and "end-all" as has been suggested
or
> hinted.
I don't believe it is the "be-all and end-all", as I assume you mean, and I
have already learnt German at school and would obviously return to it if I
was ever to spend time in a German-speaking territory. I simply made a few
comments about the fact that English-speaking culture dominates the world (a
dominance that partially motivated the WTC attack, in case you've
forgotten).
> How can you suggest such a thing when you conveniently omitt the fact that
> the Germans dominate the Satellite channels right across Europe and have
> done so since the dawn of the Astra era back in 1987.
While there are a great many first-language German speakers (something like
100m) within Europe, and Germany is big and financially powerful enough that
it will always exert a considerable influence, the strength of the German
language comes entirely from its first-language speakers - as a second
language it is spoken only on a limited scale. People in Britain don't
watch channels in a second language at all. People on the continent watch
English-language channels ***as well as*** channels in their own language -
the two are not contradictory.
Which charts are you actually
> referring to? Uk songs don't make it over there.
Erm ... that was precisely my point. I was saying that they are exposed to
more American culture than British culture and that this means that if they
speak English, they speak it in a rather mid-Atlantic style. The majority
of second-language English speakers, throughout the world, speak American
English - nobody would deny that.
I remember asking someone
> in Berlin if they'd heard of Robbie Williams? No came the reply!
When was that? His last two albums have both been huge sellers in Germany
and throughout the Continent.
To claim
> that German language films fail to make the cinema is utter bollocks. Not
> over here, but over there they do.
You mean the rest of continental Europe? True, but in Holland or Sweden
there will not be as many German-language films as English-language ones.
It is also worth pointing out that unlike the languages of France and Spain,
the German language is not spoken in North America on any significant scale.
> > The whole continent is saturated with
> > English-speaking culture (OK Holland more than France but you get my
> point)
>
> No I don't get your point. In France it's almost non-existence unless
you're
> communicating with the immediate accesses of the channel. I would'nt say
> Amsterdam would be much to boast about either. Saturated my arse!
The French are still a very insular country - they are proud of their
language, wary of anything that will weaken its dominance, and I have no
problem with that, there are all sorts of historical (Gaullist) reasons for
it, as strong as the desire to apologise for Nazism inspired the lack of any
such insularity in modern Germany. Holland, on the other hand, is
inherently Anglophile by nature.
> I would expect it to be dominant in Wold'nt you. For any single language
> right across Europe I would argue with you that the German language is the
> one to get you by if you were restricted to choose one. I'm not claiming
> that all Europeans are fluent in German.
German has the most first-language speakers on the continent, yes, but
English is spoken more *widely* across the continent, ***as a second
language*** than German. I would like you to post some statistics that
prove conclusively that a higher percentage of the population of Holland,
Denmark, Sweden and Norway are fluent in German than are fluent in English,
and also to provide examples of people from those countries using German (on
usenet, on websites, in pop music etc) to be understood internationally,
which compare to examples of people from those countries using English for
that reason.
> > Even if he is referring to American English, the fact is that this is
the
> > only language spoken in every country of mainland Europe (obviously by a
> > higher percentage of the population of Denmark than is the case in
Spain,
>
> But that's not true though. It is spoken in all Countries and so is German
> and so is Spanish for that matter.
How many Scandinavians know Spanish? At a guess, fewer even than know
German.
If you were to consider the whole Globe
> would you still claim that most of the population speak English or would
you
> actually concede that more speak Russian and Chineese
*sigh* ... more people speak Russian and Chinese *as first languages*. When
one includes the numbers of ***second-language*** speakers, English is
easily the world's first language. English is also spoken much more widely
throughout the world than Russian or Chinese. If you only count
first-language speakers, then you are, ironically, displaying the typical
Anglo-American mentality which assumes that people can only ever be fluent
in their first language - a deeply flawed worldview.
> > but *some* people know it everywhere). I would like to compare the
> > percentage of German speakers to English speakers in those European
> > countries where German is not a first language, because I suspect it
would
> > pale in comparison.
>
> Some people would even speak Welsh everywhere.
*chuckles* ... I dare say you can count the number of French, Germans,
Dutch, Norwegians, Belgians, Hungarians etc who speak Welsh on the fingers
of one hand.
It seems you need a long
> European trip and it also seems that you would be in for one big
eye-opener.
> Before seeing it for myself I also shared your current UK Western eyes.
I simply refuse to believe that German is as widely understood, in as many
parts of the continent, or as culturally dominant as English. I ask again -
how many German-language songs would you hear in Spain or Sweden? How many
German-language websites would people in those countries be likely to read
compared to the number of English-language sites they'll typically see? How
many of them would converse in their second language in German-language
newsgroups compared to the number that would contribute to English-language
newsgroups?
Now I know why Blewyn gets so irritated with you, Jimmy :).
--
Robin Carmody
jimmy.daniels
> jimmy.daniels <jimmy....@virgi.net> wrote in message
> news:OX3W8.3973$Q12.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> > Which Germans are you referring to?
> With the exception of those in Communist East Germany 1945-1989 (a
minority
> of the overall German population), I am referring to those from 1945
onwards
> who have gone out of their way - arguably gone too far - to apologise and
> make up for the Nazi regime.
I would agree that some Germans feel embarrassment and regret of the Nazi
existence. I would also point out that the general German population knew
very little of the extent of the Nazi activities at say the peak of their
murderous regime of 1943. Even the average German Soldier was'nt allowed
near the arch of Birkennau to witness what went on within that compound.
Something many non-Germans find hard to believe. I doubt whether the whole
German Nation feel a desire to grovvel today to their Western allies.
> One of the best and most obvious ways to do
> this is to avoid any nationalistic talk or criticism of American culture.
> The Nazis initially expressed their hatred of blacks and Jews in terms of
> hatred of the music they created, because they knew that this would
resonate
> with people in a way that their crackpot "biological" ideas wouldn't. It
> took less than a decade to get from the propaganda posters of grotesque
> caricatures of black American jazz musicians to the Holocaust.
I would'nt disagree with what you say about the Nazi regime. I have taken
many images from Auschwitzs and Birkennau and I'm also fully aware that the
Nazi regime activities were not totally transparrent to the people that gave
them power. It even took Oskar Schindler several months after being in the
company of Amon Goeth to realise the full extent.
The relevance here though? I've no doubt that what you say is true and even
only as far back as the fall of the Berin wall, one English Author - John
Smith wrote in his book "Berlin" that he witnessed an East German rolling
through in his wheelchair shouting "Juden Rauss" "Juden Rauss". Considering
that at the latter stages of the Stassi's two thirds of the entire Eastern
block were spying on one third of it's entire population what caould one
expect?
> With the dark history detailed above, could one possibly blame the Germans
> for wanting to be as pro-American as possible in all things (they did,
after
> all, allow their army to be deployed outside Europe for the first time
since
> 1945 during the so-called "War Against Terrorism")? Americophilia would
> seem to be a natural response to, and a kind of apology for, all that was
> hateful, oppressive and downright dangerous in their past.
But I don't see the Germans to be any more pro-American than the British
though.
> Please tell me you are joking. They've managed to transform
> > the UK into Us's 51st state for goodness sake.
> It is the ambition of many modern Germans to turn their country into the
> 52nd state. If it would take them away from the echoes of Nazism and
> Communism, they would regard it as a price worth paying.
Germany like any other Country would have to conform with some of the
expectations of the Super Powers. Mind you after saying that they still fall
short of the "No Questions" asked as with the British when the Americans are
involved in any conflict. Brits are there automatically and always
predictable in their support for the US. You can't say the same about
Germany
> Yanks say jump, any UK Prime
> > Minister always asks "How high sir"? The US arse lickers are from this
> > Country.
> I totally agree with you here Jimmy, but the Germans, driven by a desire
to
> make up for the dark shadows of their past, are trying to catch up with
us.
Trying to catch up with what though?. They've overtaken the UK in many
areas. In Germany I note a striking difference between say London and
Berlin. I don't see the beggars on their streets and Carsberg Special brew
drinkers. Unlike London, the City is clean, their building design and
general engineering is vastly superior. Their motor Industry?? They Have
Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagen and Porche. What do we have? What did we
ever produce of quality? I would'nt expect you to mention anything amongst
the crap British Leyland fleet. Catching up?
> > It does have a World language status but so does the more widely spoken
> > Russian and Chineese.
> Nobody speaks Russian or Chinese in, say, Scandinavia, which has a very
> significant cultural, political and financial affinity with the UK. The
> majority of Scandinavians speak English.
I doubt whether nobody speaks Russian or Chineese in Norway Sweden and
Denmark. I meant on a Global scale that more people speak Chineese and
Russian than do speak English
> Throughout many parts of Europe you'd struggle with an
> > English-only ability.
> It is quite true that it always helps you in *any* country if you speak
its
> first language. However there are easily enough English speakers in
Holland
> and Scandinavia for a monolingual English speaker to get by without
knowing
> their language.
I've no doubt that they do exist in sufficient numbers in Scandinavian
Countries. In Holland however, I'd suggest it's rather patchy to say the
least
> Even in Mediterranean countries someone who only speaks
> English can expect to be understood by *some* of the population. If you
> only spoke Russian or Chinese, I doubt whether anyone at all in Rome,
Madrid
> or Barcelona would understand a single word you could say.
That's quite true. In the mediterranean Countries I would expect English to
be pretty widely used, afterall many Brits left the UK to live there.
jimmy.daniels
The point I was making here is that simply because you have the facility to
learn a language in school does'nt mean that the language flourishes, hence
my question above. All public schools in Wales offer Welsh as a subject with
much of Wales having it compulsory as the medium for other subjects. The
result? 19% of the whole population using it.
billy
"Alex Macfie" <al...@flagboy.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:16158b65.02070...@posting.google.com...
Whilst bowing to your obvious knowledge, may I offer the following.
In the case of English, it does have a degree of flexibility which makes it
"useful" -because the same concept can be expressed in many ways.
Also it has a brevity which can reduce War and Peace - for example - by a
third of its length, in translation.
Also, I gained some insight into the spread of English when I spoke to
Russian students who spoke excellent English. One of them pointed out its
popularity in Russia amongst people of her age was because of Pop music. She
said, because most English words were of one syllable, it gave it a nice
beat when being used in singing. Therefore, whilst bowing to your obvious
knowledge, I suggest there is something inherent in a language which makes
it popular.
And comparing it with so called Welsh, for instance: it does not have
cumbersome words half a mile long.
regards, billy
************
jimmy.daniels
> beat when being used in singing. Therefore, whilst bowing to your obvious
> knowledge, I suggest there is something inherent in a language which makes
> it popular.
Yo're quite right, it's extremely popular. It must be "the" or one of the
easiest languages to learn
> And comparing it with so called Welsh, for instance: it does not have
> cumbersome words half a mile long.
> regards, billy
What's this so-called Welsh? It exists.
jimmy.daniels
> jimmy.daniels <jimmy....@virgi.net> wrote in message
> news:cK3W8.3916$Q12.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> > What I fail to do is believe as you do that the
> > World evolves around your train of thought. The Empire's dead and buried
> and
> > sold some considerable time ago down the river.
> I am not trying to deny that at all. The main reason for the current
world
> dominance of the English language is that the American Empire has taken
its
> place.
I agree.
> > I suggest you travel around a bit more through Europe to see for
yourself
> > that what you read and listen to in the Uk no longer applies or perhaps
> > never did. I've literally struggled communicating in English in Europe.
> Let me repeat: if I was going to a country with another first language I
> would learn that language and speak it whenever I could. However if I was
> going to any of the Mediterranean countries, I might give more priority to
> learning their language than I would if I was going to Holland, simply
> because, if I could not articulate myself in the native language, fewer
> people would be able to speak English and therefore we would not be able
to
> converse. I value and respect the diversity of languages on the
continent -
> I simply acknowledge that English is the most *widely*-spoken language in
> the world today.
I presume you mean widely in the context of different Countries rather than
by overall population?
> > I
> > would'nt have bothered even considering learning German if I thought for
> one
> > single minute that I would get by with English. May well not be music to
> > your ears, but to me it's reality. Since I'm not in the slightest
> > anti-English, I have no other reason other than to remind anyone who
> > believes this language is "the-all" and "end-all" as has been suggested
> or
> > hinted.
> I don't believe it is the "be-all and end-all", as I assume you mean, and
I
> have already learnt German at school and would obviously return to it if I
> was ever to spend time in a German-speaking territory. I simply made a
few
> comments about the fact that English-speaking culture dominates the world
(a
> dominance that partially motivated the WTC attack, in case you've
> forgotten).
I did'nt suggest that "you" do think that it's "the all and end all". Some
do. No I have'nt forgotten about September the 11th. I don't recall
suggesting that I had.
> > How can you suggest such a thing when you conveniently omitt the fact
that
> > the Germans dominate the Satellite channels right across Europe and have
> > done so since the dawn of the Astra era back in 1987.
> While there are a great many first-language German speakers (something
like
> 100m) within Europe, and Germany is big and financially powerful enough
that
> it will always exert a considerable influence, the strength of the German
> language comes entirely from its first-language speakers - as a second
> language it is spoken only on a limited scale. People in Britain don't
> watch channels in a second language at all. People on the continent watch
> English-language channels ***as well as*** channels in their own
language -
> the two are not contradictory.
My reply above was in response to what you staed below-
"There are also virtually no German-language records in the charts or
German-language films and programmes in the cinema and on TV in those
parts of Europe that do not speak German."
The German channels are hitting the the whole of Europe including the "UK"
in a quantity that exceeds all others. To me, that contradicts your
statement.
> Which charts are you actually
> > referring to? Uk songs don't make it over there.
> Erm ... that was precisely my point. I was saying that they are exposed
to
> more American culture than British culture and that this means that if
they
> speak English, they speak it in a rather mid-Atlantic style. The majority
> of second-language English speakers, throughout the world, speak American
> English - nobody would deny that.
But that would be pretty much consistent with what I've said from the onset,
that it's the American English that effects the spread of the English
language.
> I remember asking someone
> > in Berlin if they'd heard of Robbie Williams? No came the reply!
> When was that? His last two albums have both been huge sellers in Germany
> and throughout the Continent.
My last visit was in April 2002. I've no reason to make this up.
> To claim
> > that German language films fail to make the cinema is utter bollocks.
Not
> > over here, but over there they do.
> You mean the rest of continental Europe? True, but in Holland or Sweden
> there will not be as many German-language films as English-language ones.
I would'nt expect German to flourish in Scandinavian Countries. Besides most
if not nearest damn it all English language Films are US produced.
> It is also worth pointing out that unlike the languages of France and
Spain,
> the German language is not spoken in North America on any significant
scale.
Never claimed the contrary
> > I would expect it to be dominant in Wold'nt you. For any single language
> > right across Europe I would argue with you that the German language is
the
> > one to get you by if you were restricted to choose one. I'm not claiming
> > that all Europeans are fluent in German.
> German has the most first-language speakers on the continent, yes, but
> English is spoken more *widely* across the continent, ***as a second
> language*** than German. I would like you to post some statistics that
> prove conclusively that a higher percentage of the population of Holland,
> Denmark, Sweden and Norway are fluent in German than are fluent in
English,
For the Scandinavians both are relatively insignificant it seems:- These are
stats for Denmark
http://tilastokeskus.fi/tk/tp/tasku/taskue_vaesto.html#structure
> and also to provide examples of people from those countries using German
(on
> usenet, on websites, in pop music etc) to be understood internationally,
> which compare to examples of people from those countries using English for
> that reason.
I accept that the English language is widely used due to it's simplicity.
What I do not accept is the suggestion that you can get by right across
Europe with the limitation of the English vocabulary alone. It simply is'nt
true. Go as far as Poland and you're lucky to find any.
> How many Scandinavians know Spanish? At a guess, fewer even than know
> German.
Check the stats for Denmark above.
> If you were to consider the whole Globe
> > would you still claim that most of the population speak English or would
> you
> > actually concede that more speak Russian and Chineese
> *sigh* ... more people speak Russian and Chinese *as first languages*.
When
> one includes the numbers of ***second-language*** speakers, English is
> easily the world's first language. English is also spoken much more
widely
> throughout the world than Russian or Chinese.
You can sigh if you wish. I merely made the claim that more people speak
Chineese and Russian than speak English.
> If you only count
> first-language speakers, then you are, ironically, displaying the typical
> Anglo-American mentality which assumes that people can only ever be fluent
> in their first language - a deeply flawed worldview.
I'm taking into account the use of second languages. I would'nt consider the
use of sign language to complement any shortfall though as is often the
case.
> > Some people would even speak Welsh everywhere.
> *chuckles* ... I dare say you can count the number of French, Germans,
> Dutch, Norwegians, Belgians, Hungarians etc who speak Welsh on the fingers
> of one hand.
I meant Geographically. I think you knew that though.
> It seems you need a long
> > European trip and it also seems that you would be in for one big
> eye-opener.
> > Before seeing it for myself I also shared your current UK Western eyes.
> I simply refuse to believe that German is as widely understood, in as many
> parts of the continent, or as culturally dominant as English.
In Germany with a monoglot English language limitation, you will struggle.
In France you will struggle and in Poland, well don't have a heart attack
>I ask again -
> how many German-language songs would you hear in Spain or Sweden?
I've never debated about the Scandinavian Countries. In fact I've conceded
so far as that both the English language and the German language are pretty
much out of it
>How many
> German-language websites would people in those countries be likely to read
> compared to the number of English-language sites they'll typically see?
How
> many of them would converse in their second language in German-language
> newsgroups compared to the number that would contribute to
English-language
> newsgroups?
Again you're on about Scandinavia and which websites and newsgroups are you
referring to? Type your search in English and English is what you've
targetted. Try another language and see what you get
> Now I know why Blewyn gets so irritated with you, Jimmy :).
Really! and from those posts you'd soon realise that I have no axe to grind
with the English would'nt you?
Sorry mate every visit I've had in European Countries, I can honestly say
I've struggled to converse with the respective natives in English.
Jack Sais
(in message <kl3W8.3852$Q12.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
Actually that's fair enough in the former East, where Russian was the second
language, although it's 13 years since this all changed. Incidentally, were
many of your taxi drivers Turkish? If so, they may not have been through the
German education system!
================================================================
Hogwasher: You don't have to sacrifice friendliness for power
http://www.asar.com/cgi-bin/product.pl?58/hogwasher.html
================================================================
Jack Sais
(in message <rulW8.3471$l01.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
Actually English has a fair claim to both - it is certainly the most widely
spoken language, being an official language in 48 countries, whilst the
nearest challenger (French) can only muster 28. Furthermore whilst Mandarin
Chinese is cited as having more speakers than english, this doesn't give a
full picture, as many dialects are barely mutually intelligible, and thus
their status as the same language is doubtful.
Jack Sais
(in message <OX3W8.3973$Q12.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
English has approximately 451 million speakers, Russian has approximately
291.
Jack Sais
(in message <6PdW8.720$l01....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
No way - I've never met *anybody* under the age of 50 in the Netherlands or
even Flemish Belgium that doesn't have a good command of English - the
average checkout operator even in rural areas in Holland usually speaks good
German too, although they're often less happy to speak to Germans than Brits
for some reason...
Jack Sais
(in message <zN3W8.3931$Q12.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
My experience in Europe seems very different to yours, Jimmy - presumably we
move in different circles!
Jack Sais
(in message <rTdW8.752$l01....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
There is a huge motivation for the young to learn English in Germany, though
- popular culture is highly dependent on it - by far the majority of
contemporary music is in English, and the number of adverts entirely in
English is amazing, almost offensive, in fact.
Jack Sais
(in message <jvkW8.3230$l01.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
>
> "billy" <jo...@billy100DELETETHISBITfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:agcdfl$7gk$9...@paris.btinternet.com...
>
>> beat when being used in singing. Therefore, whilst bowing to your obvious
>> knowledge, I suggest there is something inherent in a language which makes
>> it popular.
>
> Yo're quite right, it's extremely popular. It must be "the" or one of the
> easiest languages to learn
>
Unless, of course, you have to write it as well as speak it! :-/
>> And comparing it with so called Welsh, for instance: it does not have
>> cumbersome words half a mile long.
>> regards, billy
>
> What's this so-called Welsh? It exists.
>
>
>
>
================================================================
jimmy.daniels
> On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:33:56 +0100, jimmy.daniels wrote
> (in message <kl3W8.3852$Q12.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
> > They may well be taught English in Germany. Those that take it up, do so
as
> > a choice amongst many other languages including Spanish. I found many
> > instances during several Berlin visits whereby I had to use sign
language
> > with Taxi drivers and at Berlin's Zoo Station for tickets. In
restaurants
> > I've been referred to another waiter on more than one instance because
it
> > is'nt a bog standard requirement. The further East you go towards Poland
> > then it becomes even more rare. That's certainly been my experience and
up
> > till quite recent.
> Actually that's fair enough in the former East, where Russian was the
second
> language, although it's 13 years since this all changed. Incidentally,
were
> many of your taxi drivers Turkish? If so, they may not have been through
the
> German education system!
Not to my knowledge Jack. Furthermore you can visit the "Sony" centre right
in the middle of Berlin whereby the staff average are in their twenties,
much to the argument of the differences of yesteryear and today's younger
culture. Sign language got me through the nights there ordering rounds of
drinks.
J.D.
jimmy.daniels
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:12:21 +0100, jimmy.daniels wrote
> (in message <rulW8.3471$l01.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
> > I presume you mean widely in the context of different Countries rather
than
> > by overall population?
> Actually English has a fair claim to both - it is certainly the most
widely
> spoken language, being an official language in 48 countries, whilst the
> nearest challenger (French) can only muster 28. Furthermore whilst
Mandarin
> Chinese is cited as having more speakers than english, this doesn't give a
> full picture, as many dialects are barely mutually intelligible, and thus
> their status as the same language is doubtful.
Surely rather than by the measure of "widely" used you would acknowledge
that the Chineese and Russian languages by sheer population exceed the
English language speakers?
BTW Nice to see this NG coming alive again from the brink of extinction.
J.D.
jimmy.daniels
> English has approximately 451 million speakers, Russian has approximately
> 291.
What's your source and what is the measure? First language or second and
what is the standard of the second if you include it?
J.D.
jimmy.daniels
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:28:24 +0100, jimmy.daniels wrote
> (in message <6PdW8.720$l01....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
> > I've no doubt that they do exist in sufficient numbers in Scandinavian
> > Countries. In Holland however, I'd suggest it's rather patchy to say the
> > least
> No way - I've never met *anybody* under the age of 50 in the Netherlands
or
> even Flemish Belgium that doesn't have a good command of English - the
> average checkout operator even in rural areas in Holland usually speaks
good
> German too, although they're often less happy to speak to Germans than
Brits
> for some reason...
Ok Jack, I concede. Hardly a good command though. You still encounter
restaurants and shops whereby you need a helping hand by sign language.
J.D.
jimmy.daniels
> My experience in Europe seems very different to yours, Jimmy - presumably
we
> move in different circles!
Certainly looks like it. The only common ground we seem to share is the view
of Poland whereby it's almost non-existent.
J.D.
jimmy.daniels
> There is a huge motivation for the young to learn English in Germany,
though
> - popular culture is highly dependent on it - by far the majority of
> contemporary music is in English, and the number of adverts entirely in
> English is amazing, almost offensive, in fact.
Really? I find that quite strange since I don't see that consistency amongst
the following - SAT 1, RTL+, ARD+, NDR, Pro Sieben, Tele 5, NTV, DSF, ORB,
WDR, SWR3, BR, RTL 7, ZDF, 3 Sat, SFB1, RTL2, Super RTL, VOX, RTL4, RTL 5,
Kabel 1, ORF & MDR. 24 channels amongst others and all free to view. I've
worked with some of these and yet find it quite bewildering, how come I
need one of their interpreters to get by.
J.D.
jimmy.daniels
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:05:08 +0100, jimmy.daniels wrote
> (in message <jvkW8.3230$l01.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
> > Yo""U""'re quite right, it's extremely popular. It must be "the" or one
of the
> > easiest languages to learn
> Unless, of course, you have to write it as well as speak it! :-/
Ouch!!
Blewyn
> Chinese is cited as having more speakers than english, this doesn't give a
> full picture, as many dialects are barely mutually intelligible, and thus
> their status as the same language is doubtful.
Oh how you duck and dive !
Time for a visit to Morpeth, followed by St.Ives, then Inverurie, after that
Southwold (yah), then maybe a little jaunt to Louisiana...
Blewyn
Robin Carmody
Through decades of isolation. Until the late 80s schoolchildren there were
taught Russian ahead of English as a matter of moral principle.
--
Robin Carmody
billy
"gmcphee" <gmc...@quista.net> wrote in message
news:3d28a...@news1.vip.uk.com...
>
> billy wrote in message ...> >news:0zqV8.3074$7i3.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...> >> news:ag4gqk$6o0$3...@venus.btinternet.com...
> >>
> >**************
> >envious of the fact that the English has given to the world far more than
> >any other nation.
when
> >that English invention - football - now called the "beautiful game" - was
> >played.
we
> >are now using: which is called "English".
> >****************
>
> LOL
>
> Nice one billy
>
> Football wasn't ,
> Golf wasn't ,
> motor racing wasn't,
> Horse racing wasn't,
> that most essentially *nglish sport 'polo' wasn't,
> chariot racing wasn't,
> yawn,
> fishing wasn't
>
> ..........
>
> Need I go on billy?........
>
> LOL
>
> gmcphee
>
************
MacPee
You need not go on, at all.
What you need to do is get yourself informed before entering a ng.
Football (sometimes known as soccer):
It involves kicking a ball. No doubt people have kicked some sort of ball
since Adam was a lad. However, the game as it is played now was finally
codified in 1863 by the English Football Association and based on a game
played in England since Anglo-Saxon times.
It is now the widest played sport in the world as indicated by the recent
World Cup (you idiot).
Rugby - another form of football - was invented at Rugby Public School in
1823
Polo:
This was a game involving a severed head (human or animal) and played by
some northern tribes of India and central Asia and was just a "free for
all". It was "civilised" by English Officers in India who formed what was kn
own as the Kachar Club in 1859 and the game played now is that which they
codified.
The other games are not worth mentioning as "World Sports".
The only real sport worthy of the name - which can be played by anyone all
over the world with a ball and a piece of open ground - is Football (known
as the English game)
To bring in fishing and chariot racing (when did you see any of this?) shows
what a complete nanna you are.
And btw: all the winter sports now played were codified by the English upper
class who visited the Alps every year in the 1800s.
Buy yourself a General Knowledge Book.
regard, billy
**************
billy
>
> > "jimmy.daniels" <jimmy....@virgi.net> wrote in message
> > news:0zqV8.3074$7i3.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
>
>
than
> > any other nation.
>
>
> > An aspect of this was displayed throughout the world in recent weeks,
when
> > that English invention - football - now called the "beautiful game" -
was
> > played.
>
> something starts something and it eventually takes off?. Since you're on
the
> subject of Football and gloat that you started it. Don't you find it
rather
> odd how third-World Natons knock out the English Inventors and that the
> actual Inventors also hold the worst record on a Global scale for
> hooliganism during Internatiionals for the last three decades?
>
>
>
we
> > are now using: which is called "English".
>
> across Europe if you want to see what dominates over there. Same Country
> that dominates Europe in general: German everywhere. English is either
> never spoken or rarely spoken as an additional language amongst many. The
> American English because of it's blatant differences in spelling can be
> argued to be another language and even that version is used on a wider
scale
> than the UK counterpart. So which English are you referring to.? The more
> widely used "American modified" version or the much less used UK version?
>
> I'm sure you could go on. Feel free to do so and then I would ask you, why
> should anyone else be jealous of you "today" if all you gan gloat about
are
> the Laurels of your ancient ancestors?? Like McEnroe said ; Surely, you
> can not be serious?
>
Surely, you cannot be serious?
There used to be a comedian named Daniels. Are you committed to carrying on
the tradition.
However,
The English language is the one used for aviation, science and commerce. It
is also virtually universal in popular music (have you ever heard a pop song
sung in German or Swedish, for instance. Once is enough)
I have travelled to every continent in the world and extensively in Europe.
Never once did I have difficulty with language.
I went to Russia on a number of occasions and even down to the Caucuses.
I tried to learn some Russian in order to converse. Most people in hotels or
even shops would not let me use it. They insisted on me speaking English so
that they could practice and improve theirs.
In Nalchik University (in the area of Kabardino-Balkaria) the students
insisted in long conversations in English and showed me piles of books they
had with pictures of the Beatles and other "stars". They said everyone
wanted to learn English and if a person became an English tutor, they were
in top demand. They said English was (to quote) "the most beautiful
language" for singing.
You are a Top Twerp - Jimmy the Dimmy.
Do some travelling and keep your eyes and ears open.
Why do you think the French authorities are wetting their pants about the
inroads of English - and are having to give up their resistance or wear
incontinence pads.
If the English never did anything, ever, again, they have left their
indelible mark upon the world in many ways (Parliamentary Democracy;
unsurpassed literature etc, etc) and can hear their language spoken all over
the world.
You twerp.
In addition, the English (with the eager assistance of others) built the
largest and most beneficial Empire the world has ever seen; and every
country which came under its jurisdiction benefited enormously - until these
countries have now muffed their legacy in recent years by slipping back to
their original state.
regards, billy
**************
Jack Sais
(in message <ETpW8.1116$oZ2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
OK, Ossies, presumably - they'll have been taught Russian at school. Where's
the Sony centre, BTW? I don't recall it.
Jack Sais
(in message <qVpW8.1125$oZ2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
There are nearly twice as many English speakers as Russian (450 vs 290
million), and English is used frequently on a worldwide basis between people
where neither have it as a first language. I'd have thought that this is rare
with Mandarin Chinese - anybody got any more information?
Jack Sais
(in message <agehgl$239$1...@news0.ifb.net>):
Didn't realise there was a difference between Southwold and St Ives dialect,
other than the word "smeech"...
Jack Sais
(in message <LZpW8.1140$oZ2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
Been to London recently? ;-)
jimmy.daniels
> Surely, you cannot be serious?
> There used to be a comedian named Daniels. Are you committed to carrying
on
> the tradition.
Of course I am. I'm simply gobsmacked how easy it is to hookline people
these days.
> However,
> The English language is the one used for aviation, science and commerce.
It
> is also virtually universal in popular music (have you ever heard a pop
song
> sung in German or Swedish, for instance. Once is enough)
> I have travelled to every continent in the world and extensively in
Europe.
> Never once did I have difficulty with language.
Then you've been one lucky guy have'nt you. Theres very little point in you
suggesting that you've travelled the World and then strongly hint that what
I've witnessed is'nt true. I'll say it one last time, in places I've been to
in Europe, the ability to communicate solely in English simply is'nt good
enough as a means of communication and it's understanding is very patchy
indeed
> I went to Russia on a number of occasions and even down to the Caucuses.
> I tried to learn some Russian in order to converse. Most people in hotels
or
> even shops would not let me use it. They insisted on me speaking English
so
> that they could practice and improve theirs.
So? you've found some Russians that wanted to learn English. Your point?
> In Nalchik University (in the area of Kabardino-Balkaria) the students
> insisted in long conversations in English and showed me piles of books
they
> had with pictures of the Beatles and other "stars". They said everyone
> wanted to learn English and if a person became an English tutor, they were
> in top demand. They said English was (to quote) "the most beautiful
> language" for singing.
> You are a Top Twerp - Jimmy the Dimmy.
And you're an arrogant, hook line and sinker gullible idiot who can't
differentiate between a slight leg pull and exaggeration.
> Do some travelling and keep your eyes and ears open.
Done that and contradicted this grossly exaggeretaed value you have on the
importance and relevance of the English language in Europe. I understand
that you hate being reminded.
> Why do you think the French authorities are wetting their pants about the
> inroads of English - and are having to give up their resistance or wear
> incontinence pads.
Why do you think that the French continue to impose import bans on UK
products and knowing full well that the Westminster wimps will do f all
about it? Why do you think that they allow refugees into the Uk and know
that will remain unchallenged? Wetting pants???
> If the English never did anything, ever, again, they have left their
> indelible mark upon the world in many ways (Parliamentary Democracy;
> unsurpassed literature etc, etc) and can hear their language spoken all
over
> the world.
> You twerp.
Of course they would leave their mark. There's hardly a piece of land on
this plannet that was'nt invaded. Ouch I hear you cry. True or false?
Granted it's all being handed back one by one. It took the assistance of the
whole "British" Empire at that time to rape those Countries. And I'm the
twerp?
> In addition, the English (with the eager assistance of others) built the
> largest and most beneficial Empire the world has ever seen; and every
> country which came under its jurisdiction benefited enormously
What about the various natives that were murdered during this British Empire
building? Not that there's any point asking such a question since the Empire
is dead and buried
>- until these
> countries have now muffed their legacy in recent years by slipping back to
> their original state.
What an arrogant twat you are. The Countries that have reverted to their
original ways and away from your influence are referred to as "slipping
back" Says who? No wonder the Nationalists of this World exist when people
like you feed them enough material to make a lifetime comittment to that
cause and there's me wasting countless hours defending your kind when they
are tackled by extreme views over here. Now I understand why Scottish pubs
recently witnessed countless Brazilian shirts during their recent quarter
final World Cup qualifier with you.
Jack Sais
(in message <0XpW8.1128$oZ2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
Tricky one - the weight of evidence as found on the web is something like the
figures above - I'd like to know if there are any "official" figures out
there though.
jimmy.daniels
> OK, Ossies, presumably - they'll have been taught Russian at school.
Where's
> the Sony centre, BTW? I don't recall it.
Would'nt be too far from the Brandenberg gates. It runs through the previous
No man's land. The IMEX Centre is also situated in the same place. It has a
large indoor fountain and shopping complex with ever changing multi-coloured
patterns on the whole internal roof structure. Massive Casino also nearby
Almost an indoor village by scale.
J.D
Jack Sais
(in message <QmqW8.1213$oZ2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
English magazine and billboard adverts are very common - I've ditched my
German TV stations since going digital, sadly, so I can't comment on the
current status of that medium, although fair play, I don't remember many.
Have you heard the German music radio stations?
jimmy.daniels
> > Ok Jack, I concede. Hardly a good command though. You still encounter
> > restaurants and shops whereby you need a helping hand by sign language.
> Been to London recently? ;-)
Good point? I was also quite surprised to learn that most people that worked
in London acually live outside London.
Jack Sais
(in message <agf612$9a2$3...@venus.btinternet.com>):
Noooo! Die Prinzen and Udo Lindenberg are excellent! And Ultravox recorded
"Herr X" too...
==============================================================
Posted with Hogwasher. For a free Test Drive click on:
http://www.asar.com/cgi-bin/product.pl?58/hogwasher.html
==============================================================
jimmy.daniels
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 1:16:02 +0100, jimmy.daniels wrote
> (in message <0XpW8.1128$oZ2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
> > What's your source and what is the measure? First language or second and
> > what is the standard of the second if you include it?
> Tricky one - the weight of evidence as found on the web is something like
the
> figures above - I'd like to know if there are any "official" figures out
> there though.
For any language come to that, I 'd love to know what standard constitutes
valid inclusiveness in these stats.
J.D.
Jack Sais
(in message <hoqW8.1220$oZ2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
Sorry Jimmy, I wasn't picking on your typo, just pointing out the nature of
learning to write a non-phonetic language with a zillion external influences.
Honest!
jimmy.daniels
How on earth can you come up with that statement when you know full well
that the main language in Poland is Pakistani?
jimmy.daniels
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 1:47:18 +0100, jimmy.daniels wrote
> (in message <hoqW8.1220$oZ2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
>
> >
> > "Jack Sais" <engli...@wales.org> wrote in message
> > news:01HW.B94FD6BA0...@news.freeserve.net...
> >
> >> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:05:08 +0100, jimmy.daniels wrote
> >> (in message <jvkW8.3230$l01.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
> >
> >>> Yo""U""'re quite right, it's extremely popular. It must be "the" or
one
> > of the
> >>> easiest languages to learn
> >
> >> Unless, of course, you have to write it as well as speak it! :-/
> >
> > Ouch!!
> >
>
> Sorry Jimmy, I wasn't picking on your typo, just pointing out the nature
of
> learning to write a non-phonetic language with a zillion external
influences.
>
> Honest!
It's ok matey, no offence taken. If I'd take offence that easily, there
would'nt be a point posting anything.
J.D.
jimmy.daniels
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 1:45:44 +0100, jimmy.daniels wrote
> (in message <QmqW8.1213$oZ2....@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>):
>
> >
> > "Jack Sais" <engli...@wales.org> wrote in message
> > news:01HW.B94FD66B0...@news.freeserve.net...
> >
> >> There is a huge motivation for the young to learn English in Germany,
> > though
> >> - popular culture is highly dependent on it - by far the majority of
> >> contemporary music is in English, and the number of adverts entirely in
> >> English is amazing, almost offensive, in fact.
> >
> > Really? I find that quite strange since I don't see that consistency
amongst
> > the following - SAT 1, RTL+, ARD+, NDR, Pro Sieben, Tele 5, NTV, DSF,
ORB,
> > WDR, SWR3, BR, RTL 7, ZDF, 3 Sat, SFB1, RTL2, Super RTL, VOX, RTL4, RTL
5,
> > Kabel 1, ORF & MDR. 24 channels amongst others and all free to view.
I've
> > worked with some of these and yet find it quite bewildering, how come I
> > need one of their interpreters to get by.
> >
> > J.D.
> >
>
> English magazine and billboard adverts are very common - I've ditched my
> German TV stations since going digital, sadly, so I can't comment on the
> current status of that medium, although fair play, I don't remember many.
> Have you heard the German music radio stations?
Sorry Jack, I thought you meant the TV medium. German Radio Stations?. Yup,
and they play English language music.
The Enlightenment
> >
> > > It is the nature of the German people.
> >
> > Which Germans are you referring to?
>
> With the exception of those in Communist East Germany 1945-1989 (a minority
> of the overall German population), I am referring to those from 1945 onwards
> who have gone out of their way - arguably gone too far - to apologise and
> make up for the Nazi regime. One of the best and most obvious ways to do
> this is to avoid any nationalistic talk or criticism of American culture.
> The Nazis initially expressed their hatred of blacks and Jews in terms of
> hatred of the music they created, because they knew that this would resonate
> with people in a way that their crackpot "biological" ideas wouldn't. It
> took less than a decade to get from the propaganda posters of grotesque
> caricatures of black American jazz musicians to the Holocaust.
>
Regretably the Germans were subjected to an intense de-nazification
that was essentialy Frankfurt school political correctness. It was
very destructive of values and very unnecesary and as I regard the
majority of the Frankfurt School as ethnocentric jewish activists than
rather thanimpartial sociologists the striking self loathing and
uneding guilt of germans (and now other western peoples) can be
expained in terms of the classic loathing anti-westernism of Frankfurt
School political correctness and born of jewish discomfort of western
man.
This article explains German Hyper guilt which is spreading to us:
http://www.propaganda101.com/SocialPsychology/frankfurt.htm
http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/Preface.htm
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/4/4/121115.shtml
Blewyn
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:30:45 +0100, Blewyn wrote
> (in message <agehgl$239$1...@news0.ifb.net>):
>
> > "Jack Sais" <engli...@wales.org> wrote in message
> > news:01HW.B94FD4300...@news.freeserve.net...
> >> Chinese is cited as having more speakers than english, this doesn't
give a
> >> full picture, as many dialects are barely mutually intelligible, and
thus
> >> their status as the same language is doubtful.
> >
> > Oh how you duck and dive !
> >
> > Time for a visit to Morpeth, followed by St.Ives, then Inverurie, after
that
> > Southwold (yah), then maybe a little jaunt to Louisiana...
> >
> > Blewyn
> >
> >
>
> Didn't realise there was a difference between Southwold and St Ives
dialect,
> other than the word "smeech"...
>
Belgravia/Chelsea.
Blewyn :-)
Alex Macfie
> Also, I gained some insight into the spread of English when I spoke to
> Russian students who spoke excellent English. One of them pointed out its
> popularity in Russia amongst people of her age was because of Pop music. She
> said, because most English words were of one syllable, it gave it a nice
> beat when being used in singing.
But she might not have known of the English language had it not
already become the primary language of pop music, and English would
not have become the primary language of pop music had it not become
the major language of the country from which pop music arguably
originated, the US.
> Therefore, whilst bowing to your obvious
> knowledge, I suggest there is something inherent in a language which makes
> it popular.
I disagree. What causes a language to spread is politics, pure and
simple.
> And comparing it with so called Welsh, for instance: it does not have
> cumbersome words half a mile long.
But at least it has a mostly regular spelling system, unlike English.
billy
Cock Robin,
How can being taught Russian ahead of English be a matter of moral
principle?
regards, billy
***************
billy
>
> "billy" <jo...@billy100DELETETHISBITfreeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:agcdfl$7gk$9...@paris.btinternet.com...
>
obvious
> > knowledge, I suggest there is something inherent in a language which
makes
> > it popular.
>
> easiest languages to learn
>
> > And comparing it with so called Welsh, for instance: it does not have
> > cumbersome words half a mile long.
>
> What's this so-called Welsh? It exists.
>
************
Jimmy the Dimmy,
So called Welsh is a cumbersome language being resurrected by a gang of
tribal cranks. Most of it is overlaid with recent "inventions" and contains
lots of English words.
No-one in their right mind, outside of the gang of tribal cranks, would take
it up as being useful. To inflict it on children, in schools, is a form of
educational child abuse. They would be far better learning something
sensible - like French, German or Russian.
regards, billy
***************
Blewyn
> However,
> The English language is the one used for aviation, science and commerce.
Yes-in the English-speaking countries, but not outside. Go to a business
meeting in Norway and see how far you get without Norwegian. You really
need to see a bit of the world before making idiot statements like this.
> It
> is also virtually universal in popular music (have you ever heard a pop
song
> sung in German or Swedish, for instance. Once is enough)
Now you really are showing just how utterly stupid and pig-headed you are.
Every non-English country has a native popular music scene that is
non-English, even Wales ! The reason you don't like the sound of them is
because....guess what...they're not in English. How can you possibly know
if a German or Swedish song sounds good unless you understand the words ?
> I have travelled to every continent in the world and extensively in
Europe.
> Never once did I have difficulty with language.
That's nice. I have travelled extensively as well, and have met people who
spoke English, people who spoke no English, and people who didn't know that
English came from England, not America. So what ?
> I went to Russia on a number of occasions and even down to the Caucuses.
> I tried to learn some Russian in order to converse. Most people in hotels
or
> even shops would not let me use it. They insisted on me speaking English
so
> that they could practice and improve theirs.
> In Nalchik University (in the area of Kabardino-Balkaria) the students
> insisted in long conversations in English and showed me piles of books
they
> had with pictures of the Beatles and other "stars". They said everyone
> wanted to learn English and if a person became an English tutor, they were
> in top demand. They said English was (to quote) "the most beautiful
> language" for singing.
LOL how little you know ! I can tell you (because I actually and really
know) that Welsh is far more beautiful in rhyme and prose than English (an
opinion also held by many Welsh learners). And then there's Italian opera,
French pop music, Spanish latino tunes....
Dear God what an utter twat you are.
> Why do you think the French authorities are wetting their pants about the
> inroads of English - and are having to give up their resistance or wear
> incontinence pads.
Could it be something to do with their apprehension at the dumbing-down of
British culture (something which no doubt comes as a relief to you), and
their fear that the same might happen to them ? Could it also be because
they see no reason why they should make it easy for plebs like you to access
their markets ?
> If the English never did anything, ever, again, they have left their
> indelible mark upon the world in many ways (Parliamentary Democracy;
> unsurpassed literature etc, etc)
Unsurpassed ? Says who ? The English, mostly. Of course you have read all
the literature from Spain, France, the US, Japan, China, Russia, Italy,
Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Norway, Sweden (and all the other countries)
before making your judgement....
> and can hear their language spoken all over
> the world.
Yes, usually by other English tourists trying to order ham, eggs and chips
in a loud voice..
> You twerp.
> In addition, the English (with the eager assistance of others) built the
> largest and most beneficial Empire the world has ever seen;
Shurely you joke ? Beneficial ? To who ? Us, or those we dominated ? If the
British Empire was so beneficial, how come every non-UK country in the
Empire couldn't wait to get out ?
> and every
> country which came under its jurisdiction benefited enormously - until
these
> countries have now muffed their legacy in recent years by slipping back to
> their original state.
...and some went on to become the most powerful nations in the world, far
more powerful than today's England.
Blewyn
Blewyn
> Nobody speaks Russian or Chinese in, say, Scandinavia, which has a very
> significant cultural, political and financial affinity with the UK. The
> majority of Scandinavians speak English.
Er...no they don't. Evidently, you haven't been there.
Blewyn
Jack Sais
(in message <agh0jn$3sm$1...@news0.ifb.net>):
> "Jack Sais" <engli...@wales.org> wrote in message
> news:01HW.B951139C0...@news.freeserve.net...
>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:30:45 +0100, Blewyn wrote
>> (in message <agehgl$239$1...@news0.ifb.net>):
>>
>>> "Jack Sais" <engli...@wales.org> wrote in message
>>> news:01HW.B94FD4300...@news.freeserve.net...
>>>> Chinese is cited as having more speakers than english, this doesn't
> give a
>>>> full picture, as many dialects are barely mutually intelligible, and
> thus
>>>> their status as the same language is doubtful.
>>>
>>> Oh how you duck and dive !
>>>
>>> Time for a visit to Morpeth, followed by St.Ives, then Inverurie, after
> that
>>> Southwold (yah), then maybe a little jaunt to Louisiana...
>>>
>>> Blewyn
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Didn't realise there was a difference between Southwold and St Ives
> dialect,
>> other than the word "smeech"...
>>
> Southwold in Suffolk. Alternatively strong East Anglian and strong
> Belgravia/Chelsea.
>
> Blewyn :-)
>
>
Yep, that's the one - Southwold as in Adnams ::-)
jimmy.daniels
> "jimmy.daniels" <jimmy....@virgi.net> wrote in message
> news:jvkW8.3230$l01.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> Jimmy the Dimmy,
> So called Welsh is a cumbersome language being resurrected by a gang of
> tribal cranks. Most of it is overlaid with recent "inventions" and
contains
> lots of English words.
Well Billy fuckwit. Let me remind you that the term "so-called" is
inappropriate for something that is true or in existence. The language
exists and is used every day and for many, in environments where not a word
of English may be spoken all day long. Nothing isolated here, it happens
everyday amongst thousands. Nothing's so-called about that. It is a
cumbersome and fairly complex language to learn. However, before you spout
more crap about what languages contain English words, I suggest the
contrary whilst the English language contains much Latin/Greek. In fact
every English dictionary mentions the word Greek and Latin by reference to
many words. In fact apart from the word "the" and "and" I reckon the words
Greek and Latin are mentioned more often than any other word. You open any
page at random and tell me that you failed to see any reference to Greek or
Latin. It seems that you are the Dimmy! and an arrogant one at that. You've
been brainwashed by your own propaganda.
> No-one in their right mind, outside of the gang of tribal cranks, would
take
> it up as being useful.
But what utter shite. Mind you I love your entertainment value. there are
cranks everywhere and if you are to refer to extremists, they also exist
everywhere. You have a fair share of them. BNP, Blood and Honour. BTW they
came round my place last week to criticise the colour of my curtains!
>To inflict it on children, in schools, is a form of
> educational child abuse.
You're one sick fuckwit.
> They would be far better learning something
> sensible - like French, German or Russian.
And you'd be better off taking those blinkers off and realise that you
constitute a speck on this tiny miniscule so-called has- been of an Empire.
You've been watching too many 007 movies.
jimmy.daniels
To Russians and Poles it would be. Afterall it was the sheer force and
quantity of the Russians in their tiny T34's that liberated Europe. I bet
you still believe that the UK and US allied forces kicked the Germans all
the way back to Berlin?. Oh!! only for those wonderful "Western" eyes! If
the Russians had'nt done just that you'd be speaking German now. That
justifies some moral principle for you.
Blewyn
> And btw: all the winter sports now played were codified by the English
upper
> class who visited the Alps every year in the 1800s.
> Buy yourself a General Knowledge Book.
> regard, billy
So if I go to India and write a pamphlet that 'codifies' Kabaddi, it becomes
a Welsh sport ? Cool.
Honestly, you argue that some British upper-class twerp 'codified' skiing,
thereby making it a British sport, when the Lapps have used skis for
centuries. You nonce.
Blewyn
Blewyn
news:<agcdfl$7gk$9...@paris.btinternet.com>...
> > cumbersome words half a mile long.
I feel you are flaucinaucinihilipilificating.
Blewyn