Re: Regarding the term "Virtual Reality", what is it today? Please discuss!

[Julien-Charles Lévesque]

Hi all,

I am replying to Sébastien's message on 3DUI's "What is VR?" thread here since it brought some interesting points and it should be discussed here instead of on the 3DUI mailing list.

First of all, I love your idea of making immersive versions of those games. I have never seen or played Mirror's Edge but I've toyed a bit with Heavy Rain and some interactions in this game look like they would really benefit from being implemented with different tools than just mouse and keyboard.

Also, the mentions you make about game designers becoming experience designers sounds very familiar.. Have you read the book  "The art of game design" by Jesse Schell ? One of the themes of this book is games as an experience. I haven't read it all myself, but the author spends a few sections describing how by creating a game you are essentially trying to design an experience, or a game that enables an experience... What type of experience is up to you, but you can certainly enhance them by using more immersive display/input technologies. Anyway for anyone who wants to design games or even VR-games this book ought to be a nice read/start.



Julien-Charles Lévesque

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Sébastien 'Cb' Kuntz <sebasti...@nowan.net> wrote:

Hi all,
thanks a lot for the great panel, it was very inspiring.

I just wanted to come back to the discussion about games and VR.

Two recent games are just incredibly (cognitively) immersive, and with a few modifications they would be incredible to play in iVR (adding perceptive immersion).

I'm talking about Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain.

The first game, Mirror's Edge, is roughly about a girl who runs and jumps across of buildings. It's fast, elegant, and it really takes you there.
 ( http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2008/11/18/mirrors-edge-gaming-with-proprioception/ )

Quoting a Wired article :

What makes Mirror’s Edge so different? Sure, the action is swoopy and vertiginous, just as it is in many other games. (…)  Why does this game get its hooks into my brain so effectively? Why does it feel so much more visceral?

I think it’s because Mirror’s Edge is the first game to hack your proprioception.

That’s a fancy word for your body’s sense of its own physicality — its “map” of itself. Proprioception is how you know where your various body parts are — and what they’re doing — even when you’re not looking at them. It’s why you can pass a baseball from one hand to another behind your back; it’s how you can climb stairs without looking down at your feet. (...)

When you run, you see your hands pumping up and down in front of you. When you jump, your feet briefly jut up into eyeshot — precisely as they do when you’re vaulting over a hurdle in real life. And when you tuck down into a somersault, you’re looking at your thighs as the world spins around you. (…)

The upshot is that these small, subtle visual cues have one big and potent side effect: They trigger your sense of proprioception. It’s why you feel so much more “inside” the avatar here than in any other first-person game.  (…)

The other one, Heavy Rain ( http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2010/03/13/heavy-rain-and-plausibility-illusion/ ), uses different tricks to create immersion :

The first and most simple one is that you are almost always playing. (...)

Then if you want to perform an action (you have the choice not to), you’ll have to do precise movements with your joystick, moreover at a correct speed; for example if you want to reach out to an object to your right, simply push the joystick to the right. If you want to open a door, you’ll have to do an half circle, mimicking the rotation of the door. (...)

Then the game happens in realtime which means you sometimes have to think and act fast (...)

That’s one beauty of the game: each of your action has consequences on the story. David Cage, creator of the game and head of the french game studio Quantic Dreams, has written more than 2000 pages for this game which has 23 different endings. (...)

It is also very realistic because you have to use your brain realistically. No puzzles or crazy wayfinding. You’re in a rush and have to phone a room in a motel. Damn, can you remember the room number that you’ve seen several times ? Or your on a crime scene (but you don’t know that) before the cops arrive and you’ve touched several objects. Will you remember which ones to be able to clean them all and erase all your traces ? As in real life, you’re left on your own with your aging memory. Same for human interactions, will you have empathy? Will you be cold? Use your heart intelligence.

So they're pretty good with Plausibility Illusion, maybe we could help them get the whole presence package !

Maybe one thing we could do is try to write an article in a game magazine to talk about this topic and raise the game designers' awareness of the value of our community..

The game designer would then become an experience designer and take this industry to a whole new level !

Thanks,
Cb

On 3/3/10 14:57 , Sebastien Kuntz wrote:

Hi,

Mel Slater has a more recent paper where he describes his latest findings and definitions about immersion, presence etc.
I've summarized it here : http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2009/09/18/immersion-place-illusion-and-plausibility/

"

Immersion

Immersion is a technical capability of a VR system and nothing else. (...)

“We describe immersion not by displays plus tracking, but as a property of the valid actions that are possible within the system. Generally, system A is at a higher level of immersion than system B if the valid actions of B form a proper subset of those of A.” (…)

Place Illusion

Place Illusion is the sense of ‘being there’ (and nothing else), often called ‘presence’. (...) If you’re physically moving and your perception of the virtual environement changes (because a the system has updated the rendering to your new position), PI is maintained.
[this could be called perceptive immersion, or "the horse" as David calls it]

Plausibility Illusion

Plausibility Illusion is the illusion that what is apparently happening is really happening. This results from a sense that your actions have effects on the VE, that other events of the VE affect your sensations, and that these events are credible.
[this could be called cognitive immersion, or "the rider"]

"

Time for some polemic :)

For me iVR ( immersive VR or iV as David calls it) means presence (or Place Illusion + Plausibiliy Illusion ). As is stated in the article :

Can PI occur in computer games as used on desktop systems? To what extent can you have a feeling of ‘being there’ with respect to a desktop virtual reality system? (…) The answer is ‘you cannot’. (…)

In the case of a desktop system the situation is quite different, the feeling reported as ‘being there’ if it comes at all is after much greater exposure, requires deliberate attention, and is not automatic – it is not simply a function of how the perceptual system normally works, but is something that essentially needs to be learned (…) PI may still be reported, but this is as a consequence of additional creative mental processing. It does not refer to the same qualia as for the first order systems.

This rules out any kind of desktop metaverse (like second life) as immersive virtual reality.

We've had long discussions with David to try to know if AR can indeed provide presence, and I'm not sure I agree that it does.

Moreover I think the term Virtual Reality was created to described a combination of metaverse + iVR.
So neither of these fields should be called VR :)

AR, multitouch, tangible interfaces are tools for more natural interactions, which help with the cognitive immersion. Do they help or break perceptive immersion ?

So what is IEEE VR really about? Should it be called IEEE Immersive VR ? Or something else ?

It could be about presence and interactions *in* a 3d world. Interactions *with* a 3d world is broader and doesn't necessarily precludes presence. For me it is the subject of 3DUI.

<troll> I have to say I'm surprised to have a keynote speak about Second Life since it doesn't have much perceptive immersion and not so much 3DUI. </troll>

Thanks for the discussion ;)
Sébastien


Le 03/03/2010 17:36, NAHON David a écrit :

Hi all,

 

I should now again be able to post on the list, so I do so

 

Thanks Chadwick for the link from Mel Slater

I’ll re-read it, but in first approximation, I’m still for using the word presence in my phrasing

(great discussions in perspective !!)

 

I’m adding also this slide, which I also use to complement the first, which more or less says that we (Immersive Virtuality people) are mostly talking to the inner part of the user’s brain (the horse as says Roland Jouvent).

But don’t make me wrong, I know, as Philippe Fuchs (http://books.google.fr/books?id=kKBH-C1jFo4C&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=fuchs+traité+schema&source=bl&ots=aCcZ0NBsbQ&sig=N1Ry6_3m1RJnar4t2JAKGjLFPpA&hl=fr&ei=WI-OS5uFNY-X_Qb5jMTwDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false ) and other says, that we are creating “functional immersion”, which is a link of sensori-motor immersion (“the horse”) and cognitive immersion (“the rider”)

 

Cheers

D.

 

--
Julien-Charles

[Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz]

Le 16/04/2010 22:10, Julien-Charles Lévesque a écrit :

Hi all,

I am replying to Sébastien's message on 3DUI's "What is VR?" thread here since it brought some interesting points and it should be discussed here instead of on the 3DUI mailing list.

First of all, I love your idea of making immersive versions of those games. I have never seen or played Mirror's Edge but I've toyed a bit with Heavy Rain and some interactions in this game look like they would really benefit from being implemented with different tools than just mouse and keyboard.

That's actually a good topic to start with :

What games or type of games would benefit from VR technology or benefit  from being completely immersive ?
What would you like to play, completely immersed ?


I have already mentionned Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain.
I'd add, obviously, that any type of FPS would be great (and "easy" to port) : Call of Duty, Gears of War, Killzone ..

But also adventure games like Zelda, Star Wars (force unleashed, mouahaha), Assassin's creed, Splinter Cell ..
These would have to be transformed into a first person.
Or do they ?

Also, the mentions you make about game designers becoming experience designers sounds very familiar.. Have you read the book  "The art of game design" by Jesse Schell ? One of the themes of this book is games as an experience. I haven't read it all myself, but the author spends a few sections describing how by creating a game you are essentially trying to design an experience, or a game that enables an experience... What type of experience is up to you, but you can certainly enhance them by using more immersive display/input technologies. Anyway for anyone who wants to design games or even VR-games this book ought to be a nice read/start.

There was a panel at IEEE VR 2010 about Design for experience, but I couldn't attend it, did anybody ?
I will definitely read this book !
You can browse through it here : http://www.amazon.fr/gp/reader/0123694965/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-page


Thanks for joining !
Sébastien

[Pablo Alejandro Figueroa Forero]

I wonder if there are reports on the experience of playing Doom on Caves... I believe several people have tried since the source code is available, but I haven't heard any report on good or bad effects...

Best!

[Chadwick Wingrave]

We in the ISUE lab agree about the Mirror's Edge game. We've used it in a study we are presenting in FDG2010. I'll invite Juliet (grad student in charge) to make further comments about this.

--- Chadwick A. Wingrave, PhD
     Postdoc, University of Central Florida
     Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab (ISUE Lab)

     Harris Engineering Center, Office 241
     http://people.cs.vt.edu/~cwingrav
     cwin...@eecs.ucf.edu  (540) 392-1168

[Chadwick Wingrave]

From my experience, the effect is a bit choppy and hindered by the interface. Barring that, it was still fun and oddly disturbing to play... I don't like 8 feet tall monsters shooting at me and slicing me to bits.

--- Chadwick A. Wingrave, PhD
     Postdoc, University of Central Florida
     Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab (ISUE Lab)

     Harris Engineering Center, Office 241
     http://people.cs.vt.edu/~cwingrav
     cwin...@eecs.ucf.edu  (540) 392-1168

[Emiko Charbonneau]

Hello all, my name is Emiko Charbonneau and I am a PhD student at the
University of Central Florida. Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain are both
games that I have enjoyed and brought up as interesting case studies
within our lab. As Chad mentioned, my peer Juliet can probably tell
you a lot more about some work she has been doing with Mirror's Edge.
I agree with Sébastien that by seeing your own limbs in action the
game feels much more engaging.

Regarding Heavy Rain, he has done a great job describing some of the
things they have done in this "interactive story" in order to make it
involve the players emotionally. There are a couple things I thought I
would add that might be of interest. David Cage has said that he
intended the game to use motion controls (like the Nintendo Wii
remote) but they decided to go with the standard PS3 controller in the
end. I have heard that this fall they are planning to release a patch
which will allow the game to work with the Sony Move. So he is
definitely moving his game studio in this direction and even though
his games are still seen as experimental, from what I understand Heavy
Rain was a success so more game companies may be taking notice.

Another thing I read in an interview, which I will try to find again,
is that David Cage was inspired by current VR and augmented reality
technology when he created his evidence detecting system, ARI. In the
game one of the characters wears glasses and a glove to interact with
DNA and other evidence at the crime scenes. He describes in this
interview that the game design team felt this technology was going to
happen in the near future and therefore felt comfortable including it
in an otherwise non-supernatural setting. He specifically mentions a
video they watched of a virtual tank crawling on a desk and avoiding
real obstacles in the terrain. One of the endings of the Heavy Rain
pays tribute to this with several VR tanks showing up to disturb a
character.

That's all I have to say for now, I hope it was somewhat useful!
-Emiko Charbonneau

On Apr 17, 12:27 pm, Chadwick Wingrave <cwing...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From my experience, the effect is a bit choppy and hindered by the interface. Barring that, it was still fun and oddly disturbing to play... I don't like 8 feet tall monsters shooting at me and slicing me to bits.
>
> --- Chadwick A. Wingrave, PhD
>      Postdoc, University of Central Florida
>      Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab (ISUE Lab)
>      Harris Engineering Center, Office 241
>      http://people.cs.vt.edu/~cwingrav

>      cwing...@eecs.ucf.edu  (540) 392-1168

>
> On Apr 17, 2010, at 12:23 PM, Pablo Alejandro Figueroa Forero wrote:
>
>
>
> > I wonder if there are reports on the experience of playing Doom on Caves... I believe several people have tried since the source code is available, but I haven't heard any report on good or bad effects...
>
> > Best!
>
> > On Apr 17, 2010, at 9:26 AM, Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz wrote:
>
> >> Le 16/04/2010 22:10, Julien-Charles Lévesque a écrit :
>
> >>> Hi all,
>
> >>> I am replying to Sébastien's message on 3DUI's "What is VR?" thread here since it brought some interesting points and it should be discussed here instead of on the 3DUI mailing list.
>
> >>> First of all, I love your idea of making immersive versions of those games. I have never seen or played Mirror's Edge but I've toyed a bit with Heavy Rain and some interactions in this game look like they would really benefit from being implemented with different tools than just mouse and keyboard.
>
> >> That's actually a good topic to start with :
>
> >> What games or type of games would benefit from VR technology or benefit  from being completely immersive ?
> >> What would you like to play, completely immersed ?
>
> >> I have already mentionned Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain.
> >> I'd add, obviously, that any type of FPS would be great (and "easy" to port) : Call of Duty, Gears of War, Killzone ..
>
> >> But also adventure games like Zelda, Star Wars (force unleashed, mouahaha), Assassin's creed, Splinter Cell ..
> >> These would have to be transformed into a first person.
> >> Or do they ?
>
> >>> Also, the mentions you make about game designers becoming experience designers sounds very familiar.. Have you read the book  "The art of game design" by Jesse Schell ? One of the themes of this book is games as an experience. I haven't read it all myself, but the author spends a few sections describing how by creating a game you are essentially trying to design an experience, or a game that enables an experience... What type of experience is up to you, but you can certainly enhance them by using more immersive display/input technologies. Anyway for anyone who wants to design games or even VR-games this book ought to be a nice read/start.
>
> >> There was a panel at IEEE VR 2010 about Design for experience, but I couldn't attend it, did anybody ?
> >> I will definitely read this book !
> >> You can browse through it here :http://www.amazon.fr/gp/reader/0123694965/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-page
>
> >> Thanks for joining !
> >> Sébastien
>
> >>> Julien-Charles Lévesque
>

> >>> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Sébastien 'Cb' Kuntz <sebastien.ku...@nowan.net> wrote:
> >>> Hi all,
> >>> thanks a lot for the great panel, it was very inspiring.
>
> >>> I just wanted to come back to the discussion about games and VR.
>
> >>> Two recent games are just incredibly (cognitively) immersive, and with a few modifications they would be incredible to play in iVR (adding perceptive immersion).
>
> >>> I'm talking about Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain.
>
> >>> The first game, Mirror's Edge, is roughly about a girl who runs and jumps across of buildings. It's fast, elegant, and it really takes you there.

> >>>  (http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2008/11/18/mirrors-edge-gaming-with-proprioc...)

>
> >>> Quoting a Wired article :
> >>> What makes Mirror’s Edge so different? Sure, the action is swoopy and vertiginous, just as it is in many other games. (…)  Why does this game get its hooks into my brain so effectively? Why does it feel so much more visceral?
>
> >>> I think it’s because Mirror’s Edge is the first game to hack your proprioception.
>
> >>> That’s a fancy word for your body’s sense of its own physicality — its “map” of itself. Proprioception is how you know where your various body parts are — and what they’re doing — even when you’re not looking at them. It’s why you can pass a baseball from one hand to another behind your back; it’s how you can climb stairs without looking down at your feet. (...)
> >>> When you run, you see your hands pumping up and down in front of you. When you jump, your feet briefly jut up into eyeshot — precisely as they do when you’re vaulting over a hurdle in real life. And when you tuck down into a somersault, you’re looking at your thighs as the world spins around you. (…)
>
> >>> The upshot is that these small, subtle visual cues have one big and potent side effect: They trigger your sense of proprioception. It’s why you feel so much more “inside” the avatar here than in any other first-person game.  (…)
>

> >>> The other one, Heavy Rain (http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2010/03/13/heavy-rain-and-plausibility-illus...), uses different tricks to create immersion :

> >>> The first and most simple one is that you are almost always playing. (...)
>
> >>> Then if you want to perform an action (you have the choice not to), you’ll have to do precise movements with your joystick, moreover at a correct speed; for example if you want to reach out to an object to your right, simply push the joystick to the right. If you want to open a door, you’ll have to do an half circle, mimicking the rotation of the door. (...)
>
> >>> Then the game happens in realtime which means you sometimes have to think and act fast (...)
> >>> That’s one beauty of the game: each of your action has consequences on the story. David Cage, creator of the game and head of the french game studio Quantic Dreams, has written more than 2000 pages for this game which has 23 different endings. (...)
> >>> It is also very realistic because you have to use your brain realistically. No puzzles or crazy wayfinding. You’re in a rush and have to phone a room in a motel. Damn, can you remember the room number that you’ve seen several times ? Or your on a crime scene (but you don’t know that) before the cops arrive and you’ve touched several objects. Will you remember which ones to be able to clean them all and erase all your traces ? As in real life, you’re left on your own with your aging memory. Same for human interactions, will you have empathy? Will you be cold? Use your heart intelligence.
> >>> So they're pretty good with Plausibility Illusion, maybe we could help them get the whole presence package !
> >>> Maybe one thing we could do is try to write an article in a game magazine to talk about this topic and raise the game designers' awareness of the value of our community..
> >>> The game designer would then become an experience designer and take this industry to a whole new level !
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Cb
>
> >>> On 3/3/10 14:57 , Sebastien Kuntz wrote:
>
> >>>>> Hi,
>
> >>>>> Mel Slater has a more recent paper where he describes his latest findings and definitions about immersion, presence etc.

> >>>>> I've summarized it here :http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2009/09/18/immersion-place-illusion-and-plau...

>
> >>>>> "
> >>>>> Immersion
>
> >>>>> Immersion is a technical capability of a VR system and nothing else. (...)
>
> >>>>> “We describe immersion not by displays plus tracking, but as a property of the valid actions that are possible within the system. Generally, system A is at a higher level of immersion than system B if the valid actions of B form a proper subset of those of A.” (…)
>
> >>>>> Place Illusion
>
> >>>>> Place Illusion is the sense of ‘being there’ (and nothing else), often called ‘presence’. (...) If you’re physically moving and your perception of the virtual environement changes (because a the system has updated the rendering to your new position), PI is maintained.
> >>>>> [this could be called perceptive immersion, or "the horse" as David calls it]
> >>>>> Plausibility Illusion
>
> >>>>> Plausibility Illusion is the illusion that what is apparently happening is really happening. This results from a sense that your actions have effects on the VE, that other events of the VE affect your sensations, and that these events are credible.
> >>>>> [this could be called cognitive immersion, or "the rider"]
>
> >>>>> "
>
> >>>>> Time for some polemic :)
>
> >>>>> For me iVR ( immersive VR or iV as David calls it) means presence (or Place Illusion + Plausibiliy Illusion ). As is stated in the article :
>
> >>>>> Can PI occur in computer games as used on desktop systems? To what extent can you have a feeling of ‘being there’ with respect to a desktop virtual reality system? (…) The answer is ‘you cannot’. (…)
>
> >>>>> In the case of a desktop system the situation is quite different, the feeling reported as ‘being there’ if it comes at all is after much greater exposure, requires deliberate attention, and is not automatic – it is not simply a function of how the perceptual system normally works, but is something that essentially needs to be learned (…) PI may still be reported, but this is as a consequence of additional creative mental processing. It does not refer to the same qualia as for the first order systems.
>
> >>>>> This rules out any kind of desktop metaverse (like second life) as immersive virtual reality.
>
> >>>>> We've had long discussions with David to try to know if AR can indeed provide presence, and I'm not sure I agree that it does.
>
> >>>>> Moreover I think the term Virtual Reality was created to described a combination of metaverse +
>

> ...
>
> read more »


--
Subscription settings: http://groups.google.com/group/vr-for-games/subscribe?hl=en

[Anthony Steed]

We've played a few FPS games on our CAVE. Some observations:

- many of the architectural models in the games are all an odd scale
when viewed on a CAVE; we called this the "Tim Burton" effect. To create
content that looks good on a TV with a low FOV, the models have all been
scaled oddly
- FPS games are _hard_ on a CAVE-like. E.G. aiming, if you use a point
to shoot metaphor, is very hard. I had an msc student who tried to
measure relative performance of desktop and CAVE players, but
unfortunately individual player performance varies very significantly
(don't invite CS students to be subjects in this type of experiment,
even if they volunteer to pay you to take part!)
- Motion sickness could be quite high. Whilst I've only played the demo
of Mirror's Edge, I expect the motion flow would like cause problems on
a more immersive display.
- No FPS game I've yet played (on a CAVE) does a good job of reflecting
what the user actually does with their body. E.G. poking your head
around a corner almost never works as you are modelled as a cylinder.
- In general, my gut feeling is that people get more picky about the
animation quality and behavior.
- As Chad notes, the suspense can be very high, so definitely that is
something immersive games can draw upon (Resident Evil 4 in a CAVE
perhaps? I would pay to play that.)


Anthony

--

Chadwick Wingrave wrote:
> From my experience, the effect is a bit choppy and hindered by the
> interface. Barring that, it was still fun and oddly disturbing to
> play... I don't like 8 feet tall monsters shooting at me and slicing
> me to bits.
>
> --- Chadwick A. Wingrave, PhD
> Postdoc, University of Central Florida
> Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab (ISUE Lab)
> Harris Engineering Center, Office 241
> http://people.cs.vt.edu/~cwingrav

> <http://people.cs.vt.edu/%7Ecwingrav>
> cwin...@eecs.ucf.edu <mailto:cwin...@eecs.ucf.edu> (540) 392-1168

>>>> * I think it’s because Mirror’s Edge is the first game to
>>>> hack your proprioception
>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception>. *

>>>>
>>>> That’s a fancy word for your body’s sense of its own
>>>> physicality — its “map” of itself. Proprioception is how
>>>> you know where your various body parts are — and what
>>>> they’re doing — even when you’re not looking at them. It’s
>>>> why you can pass a baseball from one hand to another behind
>>>> your back; it’s how you can climb stairs without looking
>>>> down at your feet. (...)
>>>>
>>>> When you run, you see your hands pumping up and down in
>>>> front of you. When you jump, your feet briefly jut up into
>>>> eyeshot — precisely as they do when you’re vaulting over a
>>>> hurdle in real life. And when you tuck down into a
>>>> somersault, you’re looking at your thighs as the world
>>>> spins around you. (…)
>>>>

>>>> The upshot is that* these small, subtle visual cues have

>>>> one big and potent side effect: They trigger your sense of

>>>> proprioception*. It’s why you feel so much more “inside”

>>>> the avatar here than in any other first-person game. (…)
>>>>
>>>> The other one, Heavy Rain (
>>>> http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2010/03/13/heavy-rain-and-plausibility-illusion/
>>>> ), uses different tricks to create immersion :
>>>>

>>>> The first and most simple one is that *you are almost
>>>> always playing*. (...)

>>>>
>>>> Then if you want to perform an action (you have the choice
>>>> not to), you’ll have to do precise movements with your
>>>> joystick, moreover at a correct speed; for example if you
>>>> want to reach out to an object to your right, simply push
>>>> the joystick to the right. If you want to open a door,
>>>> you’ll have to do an half circle, mimicking the rotation of
>>>> the door. (...)
>>>>

>>>> Then *the game happens in realtime* which means you

>>>> sometimes have to think and act fast (...)
>>>>

>>>> That’s one beauty of the game: *e**ach of your action has
>>>> consequences on the story*. David Cage, creator of the game

>>>> and head of the french game studio Quantic Dreams, has
>>>> written more than 2000 pages for this game which has 23
>>>> different endings. (...)
>>>>

>>>> It is also very realistic because you have to *use your
>>>> brain realistically*. No puzzles or crazy wayfinding.

>>>> You’re in a rush and have to phone a room in a motel. Damn,
>>>> can you remember the room number that you’ve seen several
>>>> times ? Or your on a crime scene (but you don’t know
>>>> that) before the cops arrive and you’ve touched several
>>>> objects. Will you remember which ones to be able to clean
>>>> them all and erase all your traces ? As in real life,
>>>> you’re left on your own with your aging memory. Same for
>>>> human interactions, will you have empathy? Will you be

>>>> cold? Use your *heart intelligence*.

>>>>
>>>> So they're pretty good with Plausibility Illusion, maybe we
>>>> could help them get the whole presence package !
>>>>
>>>> Maybe one thing we could do is try to write an article in a
>>>> game magazine to talk about this topic and raise the game
>>>> designers' awareness of the value of our community..
>>>>
>>>> The game designer would then become an experience designer and
>>>> take this industry to a whole new level !
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Cb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/3/10 14:57 , Sebastien Kuntz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mel Slater has a more recent paper where he describes his
>>>>>> latest findings and definitions about immersion, presence etc.
>>>>>> I've summarized it here :
>>>>>> http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2009/09/18/immersion-place-illusion-and-plausibility/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "
>>>>>>

>>>>>> *Immersion*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Immersion is a technical capability of a *VR system* and
>>>>>> nothing else. (...)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “/We describe immersion not by displays plus tracking, but as

>>>>>> a property of the valid actions that are possible within the
>>>>>> system. Generally, system A is at a higher level of immersion
>>>>>> than system B if the valid actions of B form a proper subset

>>>>>> of those of A./” (…)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Place Illusion*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Place Illusion /is the sense of ‘being there’ /(and nothing
>>>>>> else)/, often called ‘presence’./ (...) If you’re physically

>>>>>> moving and your perception of the virtual environement
>>>>>> changes (because a the system has updated the rendering to
>>>>>> your new position), PI is maintained.
>>>>>> [this could be called perceptive immersion, or "the horse" as
>>>>>> David calls it]
>>>>>>

>>>>>> *Plausibility Illusion *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plausibility Illusion /is the illusion that what is
>>>>>> apparently happening is really happening./ This results from
>>>>>> a sense that *your actions have effects on the VE, that
>>>>>> other* *events of the VE affect your sensations*, and that

>>>>>> these events are credible.
>>>>>> [this could be called cognitive immersion, or "the rider"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Time for some polemic :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For me iVR ( immersive VR or iV as David calls it) means
>>>>>> presence (or Place Illusion + Plausibiliy Illusion ). As is
>>>>>> stated in the article :
>>>>>>

>>>>>> *Can PI occur in computer games as used on desktop systems?*

>>>>>> To what extent can you have a feeling of ‘being there’ with

>>>>>> respect to a desktop virtual reality system? (…) *The answer
>>>>>> is ‘you cannot’*. (…)

>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the case of a desktop system the situation is quite
>>>>>> different, the feeling reported as ‘being there’ if it comes
>>>>>> at all is after much greater exposure, requires deliberate

>>>>>> attention, and is not automatic – *it is not simply a
>>>>>> function of how the perceptual system normally works*, but is

>>>>>>> <http://books.google.fr/books?id=kKBH-C1jFo4C&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=fuchs+trait%C3%A9+schema&source=bl&ots=aCcZ0NBsbQ&sig=N1Ry6_3m1RJnar4t2JAKGjLFPpA&hl=fr&ei=WI-OS5uFNY-X_Qb5jMTwDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false>

>>>>>>> ) and other says, that we are creating “functional
>>>>>>> immersion”, which is a link of sensori-motor immersion (“the
>>>>>>> horse”) and cognitive immersion (“the rider”)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Julien-Charles
>>>
>>
>

[Julien-Charles Lévesque]

We did run Killing Floor in our CAVE during experiments on stress management training. I was not the one in charge and I don't know if he wants to or can comment the experiments on here, but I can confirm what Anthony has noted about the performance, it is never on par with a desktop version. In our case the control was made using an Intersense WAND, so the fact that you have to aim and move around (using the WAND's joystick) probably didn't help. Has anyone done some serious research about this type of interaction ?

The game did feel more immersive (hard not to with 4 huge screens, active stereo and surround sound). Looking down stairs or building roofs is amazing. I cannot say the same about the opposite (looking from bottom-up) since there is no roof screen in our CAVE.

Julien-Charles

--
Julien-Charles

[Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz]

One of our client created a small and simple FPS and it worked really
well ..

http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2006/10/09/vr-fps-atrium-experience/
http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2007/01/28/atrium-experience-in-a-hmd/

You just have to shoot at a black smoke that fires at you, in a simple
but nice level.
You can hide behind pillars and duck, and it feels very natural. Ohh
Time Crises would be more natural to play in an immersive setup !
Players understand really quickly how to play and they quickly get very
good results and have fun. And don't want to leave !

We've never reported motion sickness, precision gets very good very fast
(but bullets are big)

I think one reason why it works so well is because it was designed for
VR from the ground up. And also because it's very simple (in its
mechanics, graphics and animations), it's hard to break presence.
Porting an existing game is indeed problematic. The whole gameplay must
take the user into account, no just a crosshair ..

If you have Virtools, it's in the samples.
When integrating in the samples, David Nahon and Geoffrey Subileau
modified it to address the problem of head collision.
The game uses the vehicle metaphor. The player moves freely inside the
Cave (the vehicle), and the joystick moves the Cave.

When the head of the player is about to hit an obstacle, the whole
vehicle is pushed in the opposite direction, so that the avatar's head
doesn't move in the VE.


That's why I think porting existing games right now, although very
tempting, might lead to some disappointments.
Breaking presence is so easy that we should start by creating simple
games and build on that.

Another example of great (and "simple" experience I've tried is the Time
Machine ( http://www.k2.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~alexis/timemachine/ )

Here's what I wrote about it when I tried it in 2007 :

"You’re lying on a modified dentist chair, tied with several rumbling
devices on you, a headphone and an eMagin Z800 HMD. As the installation
is behind a curtain, the small room is very dark; moreover the headphone
cuts any undesirable sound. You are totally cut from the real world.

And the experience begins.

My heart began beating hard the moment I was installed. I didn’t know
what would happen to me, I was totally helpless.

When my avatar opens his eyes, I realize I’m on a battlefield, in 1916
exactly, during World War 1. Bombs are exploding all around me, their
shock wave reach me. I can only turn my head; I look around, see
fighters running towards the enemy while bombs are exploding around us.
I’d like to move, run as they do, wherever they’re going. But when I
look at my legs, I understand why I can’t. I’m badly injured, I can only
rest here and wait for death.

A bomb explodes near me, the end is near. My heart beats faster, I’m afraid.
Then I feel that I’m being dragged. Somebody’s trying to save me, maybe
I’ll live ! I see dead bodies all around me. I look at my savior, at the
dark sky. I can still feel the bombs. We’re in hell.. We reach the
trenches. Fighters are still running. My savior is looking at me. (A
girl told me that at this point she smiled at him).

A big explosion. A flash. My heart stops beating. We’re all dead.

Students untie me. Back to reality.

I’ve never been immersed in such a way. I’ve never been emotionally
immersed, and that’s really an incredible experience. That’s exactly the
kind of immersion I was waiting for in a virtual world. There was no
interactivity apart from the head movement, but maybe that’s the reason
why it worked. VR Interactivity is still very young and I think it would
have broken the magic."

Sébastien

[Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz]

Le 17/04/2010 23:39, Julien-Charles Lévesque a écrit :

We did run Killing Floor in our CAVE during experiments on stress management training. I was not the one in charge and I don't know if he wants to or can comment the experiments on here, but I can confirm what Anthony has noted about the performance, it is never on par with a desktop version.

But do we want performance or fun ? Games have different goals than professionnal applications.
Aiming with the mouse is more precise but less engaging !
This could be a problem in multiplayer if some are playing with the mouse and some in VR.
If everybody is playing in VR, everyone is on par.

And the gameplay has to be adapted for VR too.. If the gameplay requires mouse precision and speed, either change the gameplay or add helpers (autoaim) for the VR version.

I probably heard that at VR 2010, but somebody told about the fact that small muscles (in the hand for example) are faster and more precise than big muscles (the whole arm for example).
So you probably can't expect the same performance with the mouse and in VR..

In our case the control was made using an Intersense WAND, so the fact that you have to aim and move around (using the WAND's joystick) probably didn't help. Has anyone done some serious research about this type of interaction ?

I really love the wiimote/nunchuk combination .. Aim with the wiimote, move with the nunchuk ! That's probably why the Playstation Move will have a simillar dual controller.

Also take a look at the upcoming BRINK game (which would also be fantastic in VR!) . Brink is a mix between Mirror's Edge, Assassin's Creed and Quake.
It's "smart" movement system is really interesting and would probably be interesting for VR travelling :

http://www.brinkthegame.com/media/videos/?id=1

Sébastien

[Rob Lindeman]

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz
<sebasti...@nowan.net> wrote:

[snip]

> There was a panel at IEEE VR 2010 about Design for experience, but I
> couldn't attend it, did anybody ?

As one of the panel organizers, here is a link to a VRST 2009 paper we
presented on the same topic:

 http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~gogo/papers/LindemanBeckhaus_vrst2009.pdf

[snip]

-Rob

>
> Thanks for joining !
> Sébastien

--
Dr. Robert W. Lindeman * Associate Professor
Interactive Media & Game Development * HIVE Lab
Dept. of Computer Science * Worcester Polytechnic Institute
email: go...@wpi.edu * web: www.cs.wpi.edu/~gogo/
vox: +1-508-831-6712 * fax: +1-508-831-5776
IEEE VR 2010 Conference Chair: http://conferences.computer.org/vr/

[nicolas goerg]

Hi everybody,

I would just like to talk about the SMART system created for the game
BRINk.
It seems that by pressing a button ( the smart button) your avatar
will automatically go to the destination where you were pointing at
with the crosshair. Leaving you with the ability to look at another
direction then the one your going to. this is very interesting because
it creates a much more realistic way of moving then seen in regurlar
fps.giving a certain automatism to one of the movements actually
creates more immersion then giving a total freedom to the gamer.
What games would be more appropriate to VR? I guess the most obvious
answer would fps and first person games in general. But why?
The first person view of course , but not only.
These games allready have highly immersive aspects: unkown
worlds( i personnality believe that people would be more likely to get
immerged by worlds less anchored to our reality) powerfull sound
design. And so on...
These where the two cents of an amateur...
Nicolas goerg

[Chadwick Wingrave]

Interesting points. Realism in many cases is hard to do and often leads to worse experiences. For example, half-life 2, a FPS, makes me nauseous because of its fairly accurate physics engine that slows you down or stops you when you step on small things or bump into other things. I feel like I should go forward, yet I don't, and this difference creates an unpleasant experience. Playing the game in stereo is extremely taxing as there are even more queues that just don't align.

VR always seems to go more real but maybe we should be thinking like Shneiderman (and Nicolas) and "Why Not Make Interfaces Better than 3D Reality?"

After all, if we wanted reality, we'd go outside.

--- Chadwick A. Wingrave, PhD
Postdoc, University of Central Florida
Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab (ISUE Lab)
Harris Engineering Center, Office 241
http://people.cs.vt.edu/~cwingrav

cwin...@eecs.ucf.edu (540) 392-1168

[James Sheridan]

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 3:10 AM, Chadwick Wingrave <cwin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting points. Realism in many cases is hard to do and often leads to worse experiences. For example, half-life 2, a FPS, makes me nauseous because of its fairly a

Animated movies are a good example of this - whilst the technology to create realistic models exists many use non realistic characters as its been shown that people connect to them better and don't focus on the discrepancies with reality....which also happen to scare little kids

[Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz]

Le 17/04/2010 16:26, Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz a écrit :

That's actually a good topic to start with :

What games or type of games would benefit from VR technology or benefit  from being completely immersive ?
What would you like to play, completely immersed ?


I have already mentionned Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain.
I'd add, obviously, that any type of FPS would be great (and "easy" to port) : Call of Duty, Gears of War, Killzone ..

But also adventure games like Zelda, Star Wars (force unleashed, mouahaha), Assassin's creed, Splinter Cell ..
These would have to be transformed into a first person.
Or do they ?

So everybody wants to play FPS and nothing else ?
What about RTS ? RPG ? Street fighter ? Sim City ? Guitar hero ? Football ?

Cb

[Daniel Acevedo]

I want to play baseball in our CAVE.

D.

------------
Daniel Acevedo-Feliz, PhD
Visualization Laboratory
King Abdullah University of Science and Technology
Building #1, Office #3419
Thuwal 23955-6900
Saudi Arabia
Tel. +966 544 700334

[Chadwick Wingrave]

My first thought was to email back a short response of "why"? It's nice to get outside. It's nice to meet with friends. What's wrong with the real experience. Then I realized EA makes baseball games...

Then I realized too that people play rock band and guitar hero instead of picking up a real instrument because they are easier to play and have lots of flashing lights. I guess too, you could play cave baseball any time, without waiting for friends and without regard to the weather. You could even change the rules to have seven bases, to have defenders you had to get around to approach a base and play in stadiums all over the world or completely generated in an artist's mind. Also, I might not be able to hit a home run normally, but I could virtually.

What aspect would CAVE baseball add over real or console gaming? Physical aspects but that would also lead to repetitive stress and probably only minimal exertion unless you ran the bases and people probably wouldn't enjoy that. Or at least wouldn't make it past the 3rd inning.

Ok, long stream of though for what would have been an otherwise short reply.

Maybe we should just focus on creating tools, enabling research and intelligent graduates, so artists and designers can make the things we would never consider making?

--- Chadwick A. Wingrave, PhD
     Postdoc, University of Central Florida
     Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab (ISUE Lab)

     Harris Engineering Center, Office 241
     http://people.cs.vt.edu/~cwingrav
     cwin...@eecs.ucf.edu  (540) 392-1168

[nicolas goerg]

With the tools right now, this is what I would LOVE to play:

a magic wand fighting game on hoverboards:

An HMD, the SLAM system developed by the Active Vision group from
Oxford, the playstation move and the wii fit board.
I can just see myself casting spells by doing gestures with my wand,
flying on a hoverboard at high altitude....
Yes, I'm a dreamer....
I really think the technology is out there. Editors have to adapt
games creation to existing systems...

[Jeffrey Jacobson]

Very interesting conversation.   

My experience with CaveUT, of course, showed just how different desktop versus CAVE-like play can be for a first person shooter.    In a cave, you don't have to move the view  around at 90 miles an hour just to get your context,  and doing so is barfigenic.    That requires separating targeting from motion,  which the latest version of CaveUT does.  You can see videos of this in action at 

http://publicvr.org/downloads/LightningGun.wmv.zip 

http://publicvr.org/downloads/PlasmaGun.wmv.zip

Since we have been interested in educational applications, we've never really  tuned this for actual gameplay. Anyone interested?

 More broadly, I agree with Chad that we should be thinking in terms of what is possible rather than what is "realistic". Why re-create reality when we've already got one? I think we should definitely be making tools, but I also think we should be working closely with artists, performers,  gamers, et cetera. For my part, I hope to work with some local puppeteers to think of some interesting ways to control avatars using existing technology. It fascinates me that puppeteering is still considered a somewhat fringe art, mainly for the entertainment to children. At the same time millions of people playing online virtual worlds games are at effectively puppeteering as a means of communication. When your avatar is scaled up to life-size, the issues  and the impact change. I'd like to understand that  better.

 Just for fun, here's a really good review of some of the new interface control technologies.

Point, click: a review of gesture control technologies | VentureBeat

-- Jeff

Jeffrey Jacobson, Ph.D.

Director, PublicVR  http://publicvr.org

je...@publicvr.org   617-435-0517

[Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz]

The problem is to offer a coherent reality even if its completely different than natural reality. If your graphics look real, the behaviors of the entire world has to be real, from characters to physics, sound .. Otherwise you're straight in the uncanny valley.
One modality (vision) can overcome limitations in another modality (sound, touch). Sound can also help with not so good graphics.
You don't need to have every aspect of this reality completely perfect since our perception won't notice the difference with a lower fidelity in some modalities
(David, any comment on cross modalities ?)

By the way that's one aspect brought by vr research that is really interesting for games and vr games : perceptive illusions.
Taking advantage of perceptual limitations to overcome limitations of the vr system and improve the experience (sorry, same link again! http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2010/03/29/ieee-vr-2010-perceptive-illusions/ )

Sébastien

[Juliet Norton]

Howdy,

My name is Juliet and I am a PhD student under Dr. LaViola at UCF. 

I performed a Wizard-of-Oz study in January where participants played the first level of Mirror's Edge, an action game operated via a hand held controller, using only their body. The experiment took place in a 10'x10' enclosed space and a 50" HDTV was used for the display. Not surprisingly, participants would start off moving as if they were the character in the virtual environment (e.g. run forward towards the screen and jump). Of course there was a problem of physical space being a fraction of the size of the virtual environment and the participants would run out of room. (Or into the TV screen!) So naturally the participants would create what we called "compensating travel techniques" to represent how the character should move and in what direction while conforming to the constraints of the available physical space and display. For example, a twist of the shoulders to the right and back to center while running in place is a compensating travel technique for running and turning to the right. Of course the question is are these compensating travel techniques needed if the game was played in VR? It depends on the apparatus. For example, if the apparatus allows for redirected walking techniques, then the need for compensating travel techniques may be eliminated. 

I did not compare the participants' enjoyment or presence in this setting to the traditional controller-based interface because it was not the purpose of this study. However, the results from the post questionnaire show they enjoyed playing the game using full body interaction because they felt "connected to the action."

Participants reported feeling tired after playing the level, but this did not discourage them from desiring to play the entire game using the full body interaction (as indicated by the post-questionnaire). Fatigue for such a game should be considered. Gamers could easily finish the story mode of Mirror's Edge in one day (about 7 hours) when using a hand held controller. Using full body interaction, I think the game would be progressed through to the end on several different occasions. I could see a player losing interest if a game is heavily story driven, but cannot progress fast enough due to user fatigue. However, I do not think this is a problem with Mirror's Edge.

Wall-running posed problems for the participants using full body interaction because it just isn't possible to execute with out a wall. Those who attempted it fumbled through multiple gestures without settling on one. For most other in-game interactions encountered, participants either found a one-to-one or a pantomimic gesture (one that is based off a natural movement).

As Chad mentioned, you can find out the details of our study in the FDG 2010 proceedings when they are available.

Cheers!

Juliet Norton

University of Central Florida

Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab

Media Convergence Lab

juliet...@gmail.com

[Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz]

Thank you Juliet !

I just don't understand how you translate the body movements of the user in the game ?
Did people got more fear of heights with this system because of their 'connection to the game' ?

It's interesting to know that people will cary on playing even if they're tired !

S�bastien

Le 10/05/2010 16:42, Juliet Norton a �crit�:

Howdy,

My name is Juliet and I am a PhD student under Dr. LaViola at UCF.�

I performed a Wizard-of-Oz study in January where participants played the first level of Mirror's Edge, an action game operated via a hand held controller, using only their body. The experiment took place in a 10'x10' enclosed space and a 50" HDTV was used for the display. Not surprisingly, participants would start off moving as if they were the character in the virtual environment (e.g. run forward towards the screen and jump). Of course there was a problem of physical space being a fraction of the size of the virtual environment and the participants would run out of room. (Or into the TV screen!) So naturally the participants would create what we called "compensating travel techniques" to represent how the character should move and in what direction while conforming to the constraints of the available physical space and display. For example, a twist of the shoulders to the right and back to center while running in place is a compensating travel technique for running and turning to the right. Of course the question is are these compensating travel techniques needed if the game was played in VR? It depends on the apparatus. For example, if the apparatus allows for�redirected walking techniques, then the need for compensating travel techniques may be eliminated.�

I did not compare the participants' enjoyment or presence in this setting to the traditional controller-based interface because it was not the purpose of this study. However, the results from the post�questionnaire�show they enjoyed playing the game using full body interaction because they felt "connected to the action."

Participants reported feeling tired after playing the level, but this did not discourage them from desiring to play the entire game using the full body interaction (as indicated by the post-questionnaire). Fatigue for such a game should be considered. Gamers could easily finish the story mode of Mirror's Edge in one day (about 7 hours) when using a hand held controller. Using full body interaction, I think the game would be progressed through to the end on several different occasions. I could see a player losing interest if a game is heavily story driven, but cannot progress fast enough due to user fatigue. However, I do not think this is a problem with Mirror's Edge.

Wall-running posed problems for the participants using�full body�interaction because it just isn't possible to execute with out a wall. Those who attempted it fumbled through multiple gestures without settling on one. For most other in-game interactions encountered, participants either found a one-to-one or a pantomimic gesture (one that is based off a natural movement).

As Chad mentioned, you can find out the details of our study in the FDG 2010 proceedings when they are available.

Cheers!

Juliet Norton

University of Central Florida

Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab

Media Convergence Lab

juliet...@gmail.com

On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Chadwick Wingrave <cwin...@gmail.com> wrote:

We in the ISUE lab agree about the Mirror's Edge game. We've used it in a study we are presenting in FDG2010. I'll invite Juliet (grad student in charge) to make further comments about this.

--- Chadwick A. Wingrave, PhD

�����Postdoc, University of Central Florida
�����Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab (ISUE Lab)

�� � Harris Engineering Center, Office 241
�����http://people.cs.vt.edu/~cwingrav
�����cwin...@eecs.ucf.edu��(540) 392-1168

On Apr 17, 2010, at 10:26 AM, S�bastien 'cb' Kuntz wrote:

Le 16/04/2010 22:10, Julien-Charles L�vesque a �crit�:

Hi all,

I am replying to S�bastien's message on 3DUI's "What is VR?" thread here since it brought some interesting points and it should be discussed here instead of on the 3DUI mailing list.

First of all, I love your idea of making immersive versions of those games. I have never seen or played Mirror's Edge but I've toyed a bit with Heavy Rain and some interactions in this game look like they would really benefit from being implemented with different tools than just mouse and keyboard.

That's actually a good topic to start with :

What games or type of games would benefit from VR technology or benefit� from being completely immersive ?

What would you like to play, completely immersed ?


I have already mentionned Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain.
I'd add, obviously, that any type of FPS would be great (and "easy" to port) : Call of Duty, Gears of War, Killzone ..

But also adventure games like Zelda, Star Wars (force unleashed, mouahaha), Assassin's creed, Splinter Cell ..
These would have to be transformed into a first person.
Or do they ?

Also, the mentions you make about game designers becoming experience designers sounds very familiar.. Have you read the book� "The art of game design" by Jesse Schell ? One of the themes of this book is games as an experience. I haven't read it all myself, but the author spends a few sections describing how by creating a game you are essentially trying to design an experience, or a game that enables an experience... What type of experience is up to you, but you can certainly enhance them by using more immersive display/input technologies. Anyway for anyone who wants to design games or even VR-games this book ought to be a nice read/start.

There was a panel at IEEE VR 2010 about Design for experience, but I couldn't attend it, did anybody ?
I will definitely read this book !
You can browse through it here : http://www.amazon.fr/gp/reader/0123694965/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-page


Thanks for joining !

S�bastien

Julien-Charles L�vesque

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:56 AM, S�bastien 'Cb' Kuntz <sebasti...@nowan.net> wrote:

Hi all,
thanks a lot for the great panel, it was very inspiring.

I just wanted to come back to the discussion about games and VR.

Two recent games are just incredibly (cognitively) immersive, and with a few modifications they would be incredible to play in iVR (adding perceptive immersion).

I'm talking about Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain.

The first game, Mirror's Edge, is roughly about a girl who runs and jumps across of buildings. It's fast, elegant, and it really takes you there.

�( http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2008/11/18/mirrors-edge-gaming-with-proprioception/ )

Quoting a Wired article :

What makes Mirror�s Edge so different? Sure, the action is swoopy and vertiginous, just as it is in many other games. (�)� Why does this game get its hooks into my brain so effectively? Why does it feel so much more visceral?

I think it�s because Mirror�s Edge is the first game to hack your proprioception.

That�s a fancy word for your body�s sense of its own physicality � its �map� of itself. Proprioception is how you know where your various body parts are � and what they�re doing � even when you�re not looking at them. It�s why you can pass a baseball from one hand to another behind your back; it�s how you can climb stairs without looking down at your feet. (...)

When you run, you see your hands pumping up and down in front of you. When you jump, your feet briefly jut up into eyeshot � precisely as they do when you�re vaulting over a hurdle in real life. And when you tuck down into a somersault, you�re looking at your thighs as the world spins around you. (�)

The upshot is that these small, subtle visual cues have one big and potent side effect: They trigger your sense of proprioception. It�s why you feel so much more �inside� the avatar here than in any other first-person game.� (�)

The other one, Heavy Rain ( http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2010/03/13/heavy-rain-and-plausibility-illusion/ ), uses different tricks to create immersion :

The first and most simple one is that you are almost always playing. (...)

Then if you want to perform an action (you have the choice not to), you�ll have to do precise movements with your joystick, moreover at a correct speed; for example if you want to reach out to an object to your right, simply push the joystick to the right. If you want to open a door, you�ll have to do an half circle, mimicking the rotation of the door. (...)

Then the game happens in realtime which means you sometimes have to think and act fast (...)

That�s one beauty of the game: each of your action has consequences on the story.�David Cage, creator of the game and head of the french game studio Quantic Dreams, has written more than 2000 pages for this game which has 23 different endings. (...)

It is also very realistic because you have to use your brain realistically. No puzzles or crazy wayfinding. You�re in a rush and have to phone a room in a motel. Damn, can you remember the room number that you�ve seen several times ? Or your on a crime scene (but you don�t know that)�before the cops arrive and you�ve touched several objects. Will you remember which ones to be able to clean them all and erase all your traces ? As in real life, you�re left on your own with your aging memory. Same for human interactions, will you have empathy? Will you be cold? Use your heart intelligence.

So they're pretty good with Plausibility Illusion, maybe we could help them get the whole presence package !

Maybe one thing we could do is try to write an article in a game magazine to talk about this topic and raise the game designers' awareness of the value of our community..

The game designer would then become an experience designer and take this industry to a whole new level !

Thanks,
Cb

On 3/3/10 14:57 , Sebastien Kuntz wrote:

Hi,

Mel Slater has a more recent paper where he describes his latest findings and definitions about immersion, presence etc.
I've summarized it here : http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2009/09/18/immersion-place-illusion-and-plausibility/

"

Immersion

Immersion is a technical capability of a VR system and nothing else. (...)

�We describe immersion not by displays plus tracking, but as a property of the valid actions that are possible within the system. Generally, system A is at a higher level of immersion than system B if the valid actions of B form a proper subset of those of A.� (�)

Place Illusion

Place Illusion is the sense of �being there� (and nothing else), often called �presence�. (...) If you�re physically moving and your perception of the virtual environement changes (because a the system has updated the rendering to your new position), PI is maintained.

[this could be called perceptive immersion, or "the horse" as David calls it]

Plausibility Illusion

Plausibility Illusion is the illusion that what is apparently happening is really happening. This results from a sense that your actions have effects on the VE, that other events of the VE affect your sensations, and that these events are credible.
[this could be called cognitive immersion, or "the rider"]

"

Time for some polemic :)

For me iVR ( immersive VR or iV as David calls it) means presence (or Place Illusion + Plausibiliy Illusion ). As is stated in the article :

Can PI occur in computer games as used on desktop systems? To what extent can you have a feeling of �being there� with respect to a desktop virtual reality system? (�) The answer is �you cannot�. (�)

In the case of a desktop system the situation is quite different, the feeling reported as �being there� if it comes at all is after much greater exposure, requires deliberate attention, and is not automatic � it is not simply a function of how the perceptual system normally works, but is something that essentially needs to be learned (�) PI may still be reported, but this is as a consequence of additional creative mental processing. It does not refer to the same qualia as for the first order systems.

This rules out any kind of desktop metaverse (like second life) as immersive virtual reality.

We've had long discussions with David to try to know if AR can indeed provide presence, and I'm not sure I agree that it does.

Moreover I think the term Virtual Reality was created to described a combination of metaverse + iVR.
So neither of these fields should be called VR :)

AR, multitouch, tangible interfaces are tools for more natural interactions, which help with the cognitive immersion. Do they help or break perceptive immersion ?

So what is IEEE VR really about? Should it be called IEEE Immersive VR ? Or something else ?

It could be about presence and interactions *in* a 3d world. Interactions *with* a 3d world is broader and doesn't necessarily precludes presence. For me it is the subject of 3DUI.

<troll> I have to say I'm surprised to have a keynote speak about Second Life since it doesn't have much perceptive immersion and not so much 3DUI. </troll>

Thanks for the discussion ;)

S�bastien


Le 03/03/2010 17:36, NAHON David a �crit�:

Hi all,

�

I should now again be able to post on the list, so I do so

�

Thanks Chadwick for the link from Mel Slater

I�ll re-read it, but in first approximation, I�m still for using the word presence in my phrasing

(great discussions in perspective !!)

�

I�m adding also this slide, which I also use to complement the first, which more or less says that we (Immersive Virtuality people) are mostly talking to the inner part of the user�s brain (the horse as says Roland Jouvent).

But don�t make me wrong, I know, as Philippe Fuchs (http://books.google.fr/books?id=kKBH-C1jFo4C&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=fuchs+trait�+schema&source=bl&ots=aCcZ0NBsbQ&sig=N1Ry6_3m1RJnar4t2JAKGjLFPpA&hl=fr&ei=WI-OS5uFNY-X_Qb5jMTwDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false ) and other says, that we are creating �functional immersion�, which is a link of sensori-motor immersion (�the horse�) and cognitive immersion (�the rider�)

�

Cheers

D.

�

--
Julien-Charles

[Juliet Norton]

Hi Sébastien,

We used a "Wizard-of-Oz" approach to translate the movements of the
user to the game. Our goal was to find out what sort of movements/
gestures the participants would naturally utilize to get them through
the first level. Naturally, we had to dismiss the idea of tracking the
user in order to give them total control over what movements they
made. Instead a camera was stationed above the display and video
stream of their performance was sent behind the curtain to a moderator
who played the game according to their movement.

Only one individual reported being afraid to jump from building to
building due to a fear of heights. Several others (can't remember how
many off the top of my head) who have a fear of heights were not
affected by the game.

Thanks for your questions! Let me know if you have any more.

Juliet

On May 12, 11:55 am, Sébastien 'cb' Kuntz <sebastien.ku...@nowan.net>
wrote:

> Thank you Juliet !
>
> I just don't understand how you translate the body movements of the user
> in the game ?
> Did people got more fear of heights with this system because of their
> 'connection to the game' ?
>
> It's interesting to know that people will cary on playing even if
> they're tired !
>
> S�bastien
>

> Le 10/05/2010 16:42, Juliet Norton a �crit :

>
>
>
> > Howdy,
>
> > My name is Juliet and I am a PhD student under Dr. LaViola at UCF.
>

> > I performed a Wizard-of-Oz study in January where participants played
> > the first level of Mirror's Edge, an action game operated via a hand
> > held controller, using only their body. The experiment took place in a
> > 10'x10' enclosed space and a 50" HDTV was used for the display. Not
> > surprisingly, participants would start off moving as if they were the
> > character in the virtual environment (e.g. run forward towards the
> > screen and jump). Of course there was a problem of physical space
> > being a fraction of the size of the virtual environment and the
> > participants would run out of room. (Or into the TV screen!) So
> > naturally the participants would create what we called "compensating
> > travel techniques" to represent how the character should move and in
> > what direction while conforming to the constraints of the available
> > physical space and display. For example, a twist of the shoulders to
> > the right and back to center while running in place is a compensating
> > travel technique for running and turning to the right. Of course the
> > question is are these compensating travel techniques needed if the
> > game was played in VR? It depends on the apparatus. For example, if

> > the apparatus allows for redirected walking techniques, then the need

> > for compensating travel techniques may be eliminated.
>

> > I did not compare the participants' enjoyment or presence in this
> > setting to the traditional controller-based interface because it was
> > not the purpose of this study. However, the results from the

> > post questionnaire show they enjoyed playing the game using full body

> > interaction because they felt "connected to the action."
>
> > Participants reported feeling tired after playing the level, but this
> > did not discourage them from desiring to play the entire game using
> > the full body interaction (as indicated by the post-questionnaire).
> > Fatigue for such a game should be considered. Gamers could easily
> > finish the story mode of Mirror's Edge in one day (about 7 hours) when
> > using a hand held controller. Using full body interaction, I think the
> > game would be progressed through to the end on several different
> > occasions. I could see a player losing interest if a game is heavily
> > story driven, but cannot progress fast enough due to user fatigue.
> > However, I do not think this is a problem with Mirror's Edge.
>

> > Wall-running posed problems for the participants using full
> > body interaction because it just isn't possible to execute with out a

> > wall. Those who attempted it fumbled through multiple gestures without
> > settling on one. For most other in-game interactions encountered,
> > participants either found a one-to-one or a pantomimic gesture (one
> > that is based off a natural movement).
>
> > As Chad mentioned, you can find out the details of our study in the
> > FDG 2010 proceedings when they are available.
>
> > Cheers!
>
> > Juliet Norton
> > University of Central Florida
> > Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab
> > Media Convergence Lab

> > julietnor...@gmail.com <mailto:julietnor...@gmail.com>

>
> > On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Chadwick Wingrave
> > <cwing...@gmail.com <mailto:cwing...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >     We in the ISUE lab agree about the Mirror's Edge game. We've used
> >     it in a study we are presenting in FDG2010. I'll invite Juliet
> >     (grad student in charge) to make further comments about this.
>
> >     --- Chadwick A. Wingrave, PhD

> >          Postdoc, University of Central Florida

> >          Interactive Systems and User Experience Lab (ISUE Lab)

> >          Harris Engineering Center, Office 241

> >    http://people.cs.vt.edu/~cwingrav
> >     <http://people.cs.vt.edu/%7Ecwingrav>
> >     cwing...@eecs.ucf.edu <mailto:cwing...@eecs.ucf.edu>  (540) 392-1168

>
> >     On Apr 17, 2010, at 10:26 AM, S�bastien 'cb' Kuntz wrote:
>

> >>     Le 16/04/2010 22:10, Julien-Charles L�vesque a �crit :

> >>>     Hi all,
>
> >>>     I am replying to S�bastien's message on 3DUI's "What is VR?"
> >>>     thread here since it brought some interesting points and it
> >>>     should be discussed here instead of on the 3DUI mailing list.
>
> >>>     First of all, I love your idea of making immersive versions of
> >>>     those games. I have never seen or played Mirror's Edge but I've
> >>>     toyed a bit with Heavy Rain and some interactions in this game
> >>>     look like they would really benefit from being implemented with
> >>>     different tools than just mouse and keyboard.
>
> >>     That's actually a good topic to start with :
>
> >>     What games or type of games would benefit from VR technology or

> >>     benefit  from being completely immersive ?

> >>     What would you like to play, completely immersed ?
>
> >>     I have already mentionned Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain.
> >>     I'd add, obviously, that any type of FPS would be great (and
> >>     "easy" to port) : Call of Duty, Gears of War, Killzone ..
>
> >>     But also adventure games like Zelda, Star Wars (force unleashed,
> >>     mouahaha), Assassin's creed, Splinter Cell ..
> >>     These would have to be transformed into a first person.
> >>     Or do they ?
>
> >>>     Also, the mentions you make about game designers becoming
> >>>     experience designers sounds very familiar.. Have you read the

> >>>     book  "The art of game design" by Jesse Schell ? One of the

> >>>     themes of this book is games as an experience. I haven't read it
> >>>     all myself, but the author spends a few sections describing how
> >>>     by creating a game you are essentially trying to design an
> >>>     experience, or a game that enables an experience... What type of
> >>>     experience is up to you, but you can certainly enhance them by
> >>>     using more immersive display/input technologies. Anyway for
> >>>     anyone who wants to design games or even VR-games this book
> >>>     ought to be a nice read/start.
>
> >>     There was a panel at IEEE VR 2010 about Design for experience,
> >>     but I couldn't attend it, did anybody ?
> >>     I will definitely read this book !
> >>     You can browse through it here :
> >>    http://www.amazon.fr/gp/reader/0123694965/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-page
>
> >>     Thanks for joining !
> >>     S�bastien
>
> >>>     Julien-Charles L�vesque
>
> >>>     On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:56 AM, S�bastien 'Cb' Kuntz

> >>>     <sebastien.ku...@nowan.net <mailto:sebastien.ku...@nowan.net>>

> >>>     wrote:
>
> >>>         Hi all,
> >>>         thanks a lot for the great panel, it was very inspiring.
>
> >>>         I just wanted to come back to the discussion about games and VR.
>
> >>>         Two recent games are just incredibly (cognitively)
> >>>         immersive, and with a few modifications they would be
> >>>         incredible to play in iVR (adding perceptive immersion).
>
> >>>         I'm talking about Mirror's Edge and Heavy Rain.
>
> >>>         The first game, Mirror's Edge, is roughly about a girl who
> >>>         runs and jumps across of buildings. It's fast, elegant, and
> >>>         it really takes you there.

> >>>          (
> >>>        http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2008/11/18/mirrors-edge-gaming-with-proprioc...

> >>>         )
>
> >>>         Quoting a Wired article :
>
> >>>             What makes Mirror�s Edge so different? Sure, the action
> >>>             is swoopy and vertiginous, just as it is in many other

> >>>             games. (�)  Why does this game get its hooks into my

> >>>             brain so effectively? Why does it feel so much more
> >>>             visceral?
>

> >>>             * I think it�s because Mirror�s Edge is the first game

> >>>             to hack your proprioception
> >>>             <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception>. *
>

> >>>             That�s a fancy word for your body�s sense of its own
> >>>             physicality � its �map� of itself. Proprioception is how
> >>>             you know where your various body parts are � and what
> >>>             they�re doing � even when you�re not looking at them.
> >>>             It�s why you can pass a baseball from one hand to
> >>>             another behind your back; it�s how you can climb stairs
> >>>             without looking down at your feet. (...)
>
> >>>             When you run, you see your hands pumping up and down in
> >>>             front of you. When you jump, your feet briefly jut up
> >>>             into eyeshot � precisely as they do when you�re vaulting
> >>>             over a hurdle in real life. And when you tuck down into
> >>>             a somersault, you�re looking at your thighs as the world
> >>>             spins around you. (�)
>

> >>>             The upshot is that* these small, subtle visual cues have

> >>>             one big and potent side effect: They trigger your sense

> >>>             of proprioception*. It�s why you feel so much more

> >>>             �inside� the avatar here than in any other first-person

> >>>             game.  (�)

>
> >>>         The other one, Heavy Rain (

> >>>        http://cb.nowan.net/blog/2010/03/13/heavy-rain-and-plausibility-illus...

> >>>         ), uses different tricks to create immersion :
>

> >>>             The first and most simple one is that *you are almost
> >>>             always playing*. (...)
>

> ...
>
> read more »