Order of Procession

[Vyonne Carter-Johnson, St. Geo. & St. Pat/Houston TX]

I have an induction service this week and I am wrestling with the
order of the procession. Below is my and the Priest version. HELP!!
I have a rehearsal on Wed., 4/27 at 5 pm.

The Order of Procession
LCDC Flaggers
The Verger
The Cross
Two Torches
The Choir
Visiting Ecumenical Clergy ??
The Vestry Members
Tintinnabulary Bells
Ministries of the Liturgy, including the Lectors
??
The Preacher
The Wardens and Rector-elect
The Gospel Bearer
The Bishop’s Chaplain
The Bishop of the Diocese of Texas

There is no one (I think) she is leaving out. Thank you

Vyonne
Carter-Johnson
Grace Episcopal Church
Houston TX

[Hawkins Dallas G Mail]

Flags go behind the cross and torches

Sent from my iPhone
Dallas Hawkins

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "V-List" group.
>
> Be sure to also sign up for the V-Happenings e-mail list which is a free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail news and information. See http://www.vergers.org/join/vhappenings for more information.
>
> To post to this group, send email to vl...@googlegroups.com
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> vlist+un...@googlegroups.com
>
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/vlist?hl=en?hl=en

[Sister Mary Winifred]

It would seem to me that the lectors (and any other lay ministers) should
follow the choir, and then the visiting clergy.
I'll be thinking of you . . . I attended St. George's from its beginning,
for many years, when Gammon Jarrell and Earle Martin were the clergy.

Sister Mary Winifred

> The Bishop�s Chaplain

[alicec...@comcast.net]

The verger should led the procession.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hawkins Dallas G Mail" <dallas.o...@gmail.com>
To: "Vyonne Carter-Johnson, St. Geo. & St. Pat/Houston TX" <vjp...@swbell.net>
Cc: "The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List" <vl...@googlegroups.com>, "vyonne m carter-johnson" <vyonne.m.ca...@exxonmobil.com>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 7:58:12 PM
Subject: Re: [V-List] Order of Procession

[Scott Crowell]

A correction of word choice.  The cross ALWAYS leads the procession but is guided by the Verger.  In short, move the flags elsewhere and the order is correct.

 

Scott Crowell

[Marcia Lauzon]

I second the remark that the flags belong behind the cross and torches.
Another issue is that if flags proceed side-by-side, the American flag
must be on the right, but when they are posted somewhere at the front
after the procession, the American flag must be on the left. They
therefore must cross each other somewhere at the front of the church;
this problem is eliminated if they process singly, or if they go out
somewhere (hallway?) before posting, during which moment they can switch
order, or if they are not posted after the procession.

Marcia Lauzon, Verger
Church of the Incarnation, Great Falls, MT

www.incarnationmt.com

[Scott Crowell]

I may be from the old school where we do not process flags as we do not
worship flags, but in this day and age they seem to process everything now
days.

Scott Crowell

-----Original Message-----
From: vl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:vl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of

Marcia Lauzon
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 6:54 AM
To: Verger's Guild
Subject: Re: [V-List] Order of Procession

www.incarnationmt.com

--

[Brian Freese]

We process with two banners (which I'm assuming are here called
flaggers?). One is the parish banner, which processes behind the
crucifer and torch bearers and the other is a seasonal banner, which
processes before the Gospel and clergy...

[John Dieter]

Please see the attached PDF for some processional orders. These are for larger cathedral processions, but can be readily adapted for smaller ones.

 

Dr. John Dieter

Verger, Liturgical Congregation

Rose Barracks Chapel

Vilseck, Germany

Dr. John Dieter

Verger, Liturgical Congregation

Rose Barracks Chapel

Vilseck, Germany

[Hawkins Dallas g mail]

Yes, the flags are important as to order and position and the flags should never touch the ground of course.

Dallas Hawkins
dallas.o...@gmail.com
(509) 241-0407 (Home)
(509) 499-4256 (Cell)

______________________________________________________________________________

Fear less, hope more.
 Whine less, breathe more. 
Talk less, say more. 
Hate less, love more, Bark Less, wag more...
 and all good things are yours.

www.incarnationmt.com

--

[George Carlson]

I'm not sure how old one has to be to be "old school" but I grew up in a
parish in the 50's that always processed the national ensign and church
flag. In fact, photo evidence suggested that they had done so at least back
to the mid 1920's. Perhaps it was an alternative to torches that somehow
felt less "high church" -- I really don't know. Like most things in the
Anglican communion, it appears that whatever has been done longer than the
past three Sundays has become "traditional" or "old school." My own
impression (perhaps from the places I was during that period) is that the
flags (but specifically the national ensign) in procession and even
displayed in the church anywhere became an issue during the Vietnam.

Scott's comment that "we do not worship flags," while true, also applies to
the "objects" as objects that we do carry in procession. We are a "national"
church in the sense that our jurisdiction (at least historically) was based
on the United States. With the addition of many areas of Latin America and
elsewhere (though most of the remaining still serve American ex-patriate
communities) I find that a far more rational (as opposed to emotional) basis
for excluding the US national ensign, at least in "whole church" events.

Regarding Marcia's comment on "crossing" I discovered on Scout Sunday (the
only time we process flags in my current parish) that the flag code has been
changed. The national ensign remains on the congregation's right,
regardless of where it is displayed. This changes the cross-over issue from
a processional issue to a recessional one (I know the arguments, but it is
simpler and clearer tha saying "processional in" and "processional out").
Either way it is just an issue of designating one flag to always be the
first to cross over followed by the other so they don't run into each other.

In omnibus pax,
George Carlson
St. Paul's, Murfreesboro, TN

[judge....@gmail.com]

One more additional comment regarding the flags. Generally such flags should not be included in a procession within the Church, but there are exceptions. When the flags are posted, the American flag which is carried on the right of any other, is posted on the left of the congregation if the flags are on the raised floor level of the (speaker) chancel above that of the congregation, but it should be on the congregation's right if placed on the floor level of the congregation (unless the speaker speaks from the same level as the congregation, in which case it is on the right of the speaker or the left of the congregation). Hope that is not too confusing.
Thanks,
Andrew D Leonie
Church of the Incarnation
Dallas
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcia Lauzon <m.la...@bresnan.net>
Sender: vl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 07:54:17
To: Verger's Guild<vl...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [V-List] Order of Procession

[Sister Mary Winifred]

George is right on the history of flags in procession, although many places
had torches as well . . . I think until Vietnam there was a certain sense of
national pride that made people proud to display/carry the US flag, it had
nothing to do with "worshipping the flag." There was a time when the Church
prayed for victory in war -- you don't hear that anymore. . .

Sister MW

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Carlson" <vist...@blomand.net>
To: "'Verger's Guild'" <vl...@googlegroups.com>

[anitai...@msn.com]

Ah.  The American flag "must..."?! 
In more than a dozen churches across the country, it has been interesting for me to see how (and sometimes even IF) the American flag is present during worship.  While not commonly followed, there is precedent both theologically and practically for flag etiquette that allows the American flag to not be in the Country-Before-God-Left-Hand-When-Displayed position (in other words, to put it in the God-Comes-First-Then-Country-So-Display-Old-Glory-on-the-Right position.  This is more common when the Christian flag is used and OF COURSE depends upon the congregation being willing to consider the hubris of patriotic etiquette as not being more important than God.  Personally, I prefer not to raise those issues and tend to take the coward's way out: No American flag in worship if it can be helped.  It helps to keep everyone's undergarments in a more comfortable state, which greatly facilitates worship.   
And for those who Know how the flag Must be displayed, let me add that I have 25+ years in Scouting, have military experience, and have provided leadership in churches with and without Marines and lifers in the Boy Scouts.  Just when I/we think I/we know The Way It's Supposed to Be, turns out there's another option.   Or two, or...

Anita Holmes
Hesperia, CA
(Gee, nothing like tossing in the American-flag-worship-rubric grenade!)

-----Original message-----

From: Marcia Lauzon <m.la...@bresnan.net>
To: Verger's Guild <vl...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tue, Apr 26, 2011 13:54:17 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [V-List] Order of Procession