Possible revival of Vinux?

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paperclip

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May 20, 2021, 5:28:02 PM5/20/21
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Ever since i started using Linux. I've always encountered problems with accessibility even if a distro has tried.

I was reading through this group and noticed that the main reason for Vinux not being developed is the fact that there is only one developer after Luke stepped down.

So im willing to be a contributor in my free time and i have a few ideas!

Idea 1: develop vinux into a package so it can be used on multiple distros that includes accessibility packages

Pros;

choice of distros

cons:

harder to maintain as there would likely be different issues related to different distros, so it would be hard fixing issues for one distro because it might cause issues in other distros

Idea 2: continue the distros development but continue using ubuntu
We could switch to ubuntu MATE since it tends to be better with acessibility from experience, but could also support gnome
pros;

We could also build vinux on 20.04 LTS, meaning support for 5 years and not update distro often, only updating to next LTS every 2 years. Letting us focus on user experience
ubuntu most widely used distro
lots of support
biggest library of software
accessibility quite good 

cons:
Gnome is system intensive meaning older pcs wont run well


If the distro was to be revived id also like to develop an arm branch for devices such as raspberry pi.

What are your thoughts





Rudy Vener

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May 20, 2021, 6:36:05 PM5/20/21
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I stopped using Vinux when one too many upgrades blew away my speech, such as it was.


I switched from Vinux to slint when one too many upgrades blew away my speech.
Slint's speech options are far superior to Vinux. Plus it is being actively supported.
Maybe a better use of your skills would be to help support and expand
slint instead of resurrecting Vinux.
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D.J.J. Ring, Jr.

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May 21, 2021, 1:42:09 AM5/21/21
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Why reinvent what's been already done? 

The best thing in Linux I've found is Debian made from non-free iso file then adding /etc/apt/sources.list file generated by https://debgen.simplylinux.ch/ and using smxi from http://smxi.org/smxi.zip and install command line browsers and utilities as well as Ceni a easy to use command line network tool and making a shortcut from it's executive "Ceni" to a link in the same folder "ceni" and making it executable with chmod  +x.

Then you have the stability of Debian with none of their self imposed restrictions concerning "free" software and firmware and multimedia.

But aside from some of the very old command line programs and much better implementations of other very simple desktops like my favorite for old hardware, "ratpoison", Slint is the way to go.

Join Didier, the only developer and develop Slint he's doing it all alone, and Slackware is much better at removing broken programs than any other system, you can roll back by removing the application the Slackware way.

Slint is better than any Vinux release ever made even the old Vinux 2.0 Debian systems. 

Debian is much better than anything else when "corrected" but Ubuntu based on Debian went too far away from Debian so it's not compatible.

Don't do parallel work, join SLINT .

Best wishes,

David



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Vojtěch šmiro

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May 21, 2021, 3:40:39 AM5/21/21
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Hello,

this is the best linux news what I hear! I and my friend Libor can test
for you, we both have Raspberry Pi as our primary computer, but we also
have some older desktops and we can test for you. We cannot programming,
sorry, but we can test and report. Now we have Ubuntu Mate 20.04 on
Raspberry, but with external sound card. I hope vinux won't need
external sound card such as Raspbian or Stormux. The Pi is hot with
external sound card so new system for us will be wellcome.

Thanks for your great news. Take care.

Best regards

Vojta.

Dne 20. 05. 21 v 16:17 paperclip napsal(a):
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Vojtěch šmiro

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May 21, 2021, 4:03:44 AM5/21/21
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Hello,

I am afraid Slint won't exist long time. Slackware developers have
financial problems and they need to find some sponsors or patrons. I
don't have anything opposite Slint, I don't know that system, but if
it's possible to play with it on Raspberry Pi, I will glad to test it
and if it will be usable for me, I will think about being patron of
Slint,. But my small amount (300 Czech Crowns per Month - 15€) will be
really small, sorry.

Vojta.

Dne 21. 05. 21 v 0:36 Rudy Vener napsal(a):

ex

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May 21, 2021, 1:08:32 PM5/21/21
to vinux-...@googlegroups.com, D.J.J. Ring, Jr.

Don't bother and join Slint.

D.J.J. Ring, Jr.

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May 21, 2021, 1:52:41 PM5/21/21
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Paperclip,

Go install SLINT and see how excellent it is.

If you're in need of a project find something over there that you can help with.

Linux doesn't need more scattering, people reinventing things with a dozen "pretty good" distros.

SLINT is excellent, join and help.

Best wishes,

David

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/vinux-support/88f6e388-110c-7b97-6296-e17f12d328cf%40gmail.com.

Roland Engelsma

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May 21, 2021, 2:38:49 PM5/21/21
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Hi

From a pure end user point of view, i'd really like to see the multi distro aproach. A stance like, use only this because it's good, seems really narrow and won't really benifit the open-source comunity by much, unless the slint modifications would spread out elsewhere or are installable over say a debian or some such. I currently don't have any linux running, and reading to stick with only this, is not really giving open vibes...

Cheers
Roland

Sent from my iPhone

On 21 May 2021, at 19:52, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. <n1...@arrl.net> wrote:



D.J.J. Ring, Jr.

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May 22, 2021, 1:52:57 AM5/22/21
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Paperclip,

Install  slint and tell us if it's not the best and most accessible distro you have ever used.

I was never a Slackware fan, I liked Debian - but I still do not like the non-free part of Debian which means you don't get firmware and multimedia applications - but there are way around it, but Debian has many more command line programs than Ubuntu and can be installed with speech from command line which is important for our users as many still would rather use command line where they really have control as opposed to playing around with a mouse and a screen they cannot see.

SLINT has nearly all those command line programs and you can configure it to start in command line, waiting for you to type "startx" if you want to go to MATE.

SLINT has emacspeak preconfigured - which for the new person, is awesome.  There's no program as useful for blind users as emacspeak.

But installing it with emacspeak speech support as opposed to just having a screen reader read the command line of emacspeak is a world of difference. emacspeak is custom tutored to tell you what you need to hear not a lot of garbage.  The developer is totally blind.

Put your effort where it will do the most good, right now the most good is with SLINT.

I am particularly impressed with SLINT package management, when you uninstall a package, it's completely removed, and any problems you had with it by perhaps your own errors is also gone, you can just reinstall and it will work.

Nothing else ever does that.

Best wishes,
David



Vojtěch šmiro

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May 22, 2021, 5:20:11 AM5/22/21
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What about renaming this list to Slint mailing list or delete this
group? I think, there is no reason this list exist. Vinux died a few
years ago, you all here write Slint, Slint, only Slint, Slint, so you
can cancel this group.

Vojta.

Dne 22. 05. 21 v 7:52 D.J.J. Ring, Jr. napsal(a):
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Rob Whyte

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May 22, 2021, 7:36:01 AM5/22/21
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Thanks for your post,

the problem with any project that hinges on a small development team is that if that disappears the project can fall over.

Whilst Luke steared Vinux to image builds relying upon live build it also is a steep learning curve for the development team.


I've spent much time trying to learn live build and also the bzr tools which have now moved to git.

If anyone in our community has experience with these tools I would much like to hear from them.

Vinux used to base upon a set of build scripts which took a lot of maintaining and time to iron out bugs with triggering of manual builds occuring often.


Basing upon Mate is a good idea as our last release had Unity, Mate and Gnome offering an alternative for many.


Vinux had a vision when starting to not exist, to the end that accessibility would be good enough mainstream.

Has it met that target? Is there still a need for an accessible distro?

Good topics for debate, other distros have picked up the slack like Slint and projects like Raspberry-vi, Stormux and Fenrir.


Personally I will continue to support Vinux and explore options for its continued development. I also am just one person with limited inner workings of distribution building and packaging plus have family and fulltime work like so many of us.


The fact that Vinux offered a platform to support people to dive into Linux and then they went off and found something different and are happy, means that Vinux has had a purpose.


I welcome feedback and offerings of other projects as it all supports each other with the sharing of information.


Warm regards

Rob Whyte

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Christopher Chaltain

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May 22, 2021, 1:01:30 PM5/22/21
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For me, I want this list to stick around. I suggest people join the mailing list for Slint if they’re interested in Slint and unsubscribe from this list if they aren’t interested in Vinux.

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Subject: Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: Possible revival of Vinux?
 

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Christopher Chaltain

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May 22, 2021, 1:07:17 PM5/22/21
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I still need to check out Slint, but I like the idea of another distro and one based on Ubuntu. I also like the Gnome desktop. Ditto for having an accessible distro. It may technically not be needed, but couldn’t you say that about a lot of distributions?

I’m planning on retiring soon, and when I do, I’d like to spend some time on Vinux and Linux accessibility. This wold include project management, documentation, and testing, as well as some technical and development stuff.

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Subject: Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: Possible revival of Vinux?
 

Thanks for your post,

Nikita

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May 22, 2021, 2:58:44 PM5/22/21
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Hi Christopher,

If you are interested in specialized distributions based on Ubuntu, then you can try the Accessible-Coconut - http://www.cocofrix.com/downloads.php

Best regards, Nikita.

gnopernicus

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May 22, 2021, 3:48:49 PM5/22/21
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Hello,
my suggestion is to base Vinux on Debian and Mate - Debian already has taling installer. The most cool feature of debian is that one can enable bacport repos and enjoy newest a11y! So my idea would be to use debian as a base and use something aca respin to make future vinux releases. Off course, non-free/contrib repos could be included as well as needed non-free software. Just idea! Greetings!

rsjack...@gmail.com

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May 22, 2021, 6:20:09 PM5/22/21
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How do I signup for the mailing list for slint?

rodney

 

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From: Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 12:01
To: vinux-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: Possible revival of Vinux?

 

For me, I want this list to stick around. I suggest people join the mailing list for Slint if they’re interested in Slint and unsubscribe from this list if they aren’t interested in Vinux.

 

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Thomas McMahan

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May 22, 2021, 6:41:02 PM5/22/21
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On May 22, 2021, at 17:20, <rsjack...@gmail.com> <rsjack...@gmail.com> wrote:

How do I signup for the mailing list for slint?
rodney
 
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From: Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 12:01
To: vinux-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: Possible revival of Vinux?
 
For me, I want this list to stick around. I suggest people join the mailing list for Slint if they’re interested in Slint and unsubscribe from this list if they aren’t interested in Vinux.
 
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D.J.J. Ring, Jr.

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May 22, 2021, 6:55:55 PM5/22/21
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For me, I want this list to stick around. I suggest people join the mailing list for Slint if they’re interested in Slint and unsubscribe from this list if they aren’t interested in Vinux.

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Christopher, AKA CJ, on the move
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CJ,

I know you didn't mean this in the way it might sound to people because I know and you should know as well that original post had to do with developing Vinux into a universal package that would work with all distributions of *nix. 

The responses were in response to that, the original poster correctly observed that Vinux is dead, and so it is.

We in return gave answers for why or why not his suggestion was either a good one or not.

I was with Vinux since Tony made Vinux 1.0 which came in both command line (CLI) and graphical user interface (GUI) versions and in many ways I prefer the development under Debian, there were applications for remastering the ISO file from which we built our installation accessible both in the CLI version and the GUI version.

The last Debian version was Vinux 2.1 Distro in both CLI and GUI which is archived at https://archive.org/details/vinux-debian-cli-distro over to the right under FILES select "iso image" to see the files oir go here: https://archive.org/download/vinux-debian-cli-distro

Just like the development of Vinux stopped when we lost a very skilled developer, likewise SLINT will stop when Dider is unable to continue his work which is a mainly one man effort.

I love Vinux, but software sometimes gets better.  I don't like Ubuntu because of how difficult it is for me to make a command line version, Debian is much easier in that respect.

But SLINT has both, and you can by using one of the utilities chose the way you log in.  You can log in directly into MATE or another desktop of your choice, or into command line, where you have to type "startx" (or other command) to go into graphical mode.

SLINT comes pre-configured to use the latest emacspeak - which can be a big headache on other distros to install.

SLINT works closely with VOXIN the IBM command line voices and their new eloquence voices (Vocalizer Embedded) which are for sale at oralux.org for a very reasonable cost. Voxin 3.3rc4 is compatible with Emacspeak (IBM TTS), Fenrir, Orca/Speech-Dispatcher, SBL.

You have to have a 64 bit processor for the new Vocalizer Embedded voices, but they sound wonderful.

Voxin Vocalizer Embedded comes in these languages:
Arabic
Basque
Bulgarian
Catalan
Chinese
Croatian
Czech
Danish
Dutch
English
Finnish
French
Galician
German
Greek
Hebrew
Hindi
Hungarian
Indian Bengali
Indian Bhojpuri
Indonesian
Italian
Japanese
Kannada
Korean
Malay
Marathi
Norwegian
Polish
Portuguese
Romanian
Russian
Slovak
Spanish
Swedish
Tamil
Telugu
Thai
Turkish
Ukrainian

Under many of the languages there are regional choices, like English, which has:
American English
Australian English
British English
Indian English
Irish English
South African English

Then inside each region, one or more voices, in one or more qualities is offered.

The highest quality voice is called "ML HIGH"

American English has to of those top choices:
https://oralux.org/audio/ava-ml-embedded-high.wav

Czech however only has "HIGH" not ML HIGH but the quality is excellent:
https://oralux.org/audio/zuzana-embedded-high.wav

Here's two hints:

If you want to buy a language, buy one of the IBM TTS languages also at the same time - note however not all languages have IBM TTS available.

I know IBM TTS is available for Chinese Mandarin, Taiwanese Mandarin, American English, British English, Finish, French Metropolitan, French Canadian, German, Italian, Japanese, Portugese (European Portugese),  Portugese Brazilian, Spanish Castilian and Spanish Mexican.

PRICES:

Voxin + IBM TTS 4.19 EUR                                      0%
Voxin + Vocalizer Embedded, Compact 22.1 EUR 36%
Voxin + Vocalizer Embedded, Pro 26 EUR             36%
Voxin + Vocalizer Embedded, High 29.91 EUR      36%

The last number is the discount for additional languages of the SAME quality purchased at the same time.

ML and ML High both cost 29.91 EUR.

It seems like if you bought Australian English in High and French Metropolitan in Compact at the same time, you would NOT receive a discount, but if you bought the French in the HIGH version at the same time, you would get 36% off the second (or more) voices. If you bought Compact vices, for every additional Compact voice, you receive a 36% discount but only when purchased at the same time.

High and ML High are the highest quality, if you buy a ML High voice and then another High voice because ML High isn't available in that language, you get the 36% discount if you purchase them at the same time.

Item Price Discount Quantity Subtotal Action
Voxin: American English, Ava Compact (Vocalizer Embedded) 22.11 EUR 
Voxin: American English, Ava Pro (Vocalizer Embedded) 26.00 EUR 
Voxin: American English, Ava High (Vocalizer Embedded) 29.91 EUR 
Voxin: American English, Ava ML Pro (Vocalizer Embedded) 26.00 EUR 
Voxin: American English, Ava ML High (Vocalizer Embedded) 29.91 EUR 

This page will let you play the voices so you can choose.  I haven't received confirmation from Oralux but I believe the ML High - which is the highest quality voice available, higher than ML Pro,and Pro, and that the ML part of it means "Multiple Languages" but I haven't got confirmation of that, but since the High and ML High are the same price, I bought the ML High voice.

I bought ML High Zoe American English and I'm delighted with it, I also already had IBM TTS in American English and now I have the Vocalizer Embedded voices in ORCA and IBM TTS in command line and within X Windows MATE Desktop when I run emacs in Mate Terminal.  Note you have to turn off ORCA when you run emacs in terminal just like you have to turn off speakup when you run emacspeak / emacs in console or you will have double voices - voxin using the emacspeak synthesizer is much much better than using a screen reader!

Regards,
David



D.J.J. Ring, Jr.

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May 22, 2021, 7:13:05 PM5/22/21
to The Vinux Support Forum
SLINT is "SLackware INTernational for many languages and also accessible.

The installer has the following languages to use for installation with more coming.



Dutch
English, USA
French
German
Greek
Italian
Norwegian
Polish
Portuguese Brazil
Portuguese Portugal
Russian
Spanish Latin America
Swedish
Turkish
Ukrainian

You probably can add more languages after installing but these are the languages the installer is written in.

Best wishes,
David

D.J.J. Ring, Jr.

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May 22, 2021, 7:19:37 PM5/22/21
to The Vinux Support Forum
Subscribing to the SLINT List.

Information about the SLINT list is here:

https://slint.fr/blog/welcome-to-the-new-slint-mailing-list.html

Regards,

David

rsjack...@gmail.com

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May 22, 2021, 8:10:46 PM5/22/21
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Thanks everyone for helping with the slint mailing list. I am signed up now.

rodney

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: D.JJ. Ring, Jr.
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 18:19
To: The Vinux Support Forum
Subject: Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: Possible revival of Vinux?

 

Subscribing to the SLINT List.

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Remember to frequently check our Wiki: http://wiki.vinuxproject.org
Our website: http://www.vinuxproject.org
You can search or view our group on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/vinux-support
Talk to us on IRC irc.vinuxproject.org #Vinux
 
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chal...@gmail.com

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May 23, 2021, 8:39:43 AM5/23/21
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I’m sorry but I’m confused by this post David. The message I was responding to was that this list should change it’s name to the Slint list or that the list should be shutdown since Vinux is dead. I never challenged the statement on whether Vinux was dead or not. I just said that there’s no reason to change this to a Slint list since a Slint list already exists. There’s also no reason for this list to go away just because Vinux isn’t under development at the moment. I think Rob’s post is a good example of why we should keep this list around. Like I said, I haven’t tried Slint out yet myself, and I’m sure it’s a great distro, but there are reasons for distros to be based on distros other than Slackware. Also what happens if the Slint developer moves on to something else? I get the argument about spreading resources too thin, but there’s also a lot of good reasons to have multiple distributions.

 

From: vinux-...@googlegroups.com <vinux-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of D.J.J. Ring, Jr.
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 6:55 PM
To: The Vinux Support Forum <vinux-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: VINUX-SUPPORT: Possible revival of Vinux?

 

 

For me, I want this list to stick around. I suggest people join the mailing list for Slint if they’re interested in Slint and unsubscribe from this list if they aren’t interested in Vinux.

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Our website: http://www.vinuxproject.org
You can search or view our group on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/vinux-support
Talk to us on IRC irc.vinuxproject.org #Vinux
 
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D.J.J. Ring, Jr.

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May 23, 2021, 9:44:20 AM5/23/21
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Yes, CJ, you did respond to a message about someone saying this list should be shut down or renamed the SLINT list because that author of that message seemed to be upset that only "slint, slint, slint" was being discussed.

The reality is that Vinux was an excellent distro, that we lost two times, lead developers for various reasons, Vinux survived the first lost (Tony Sales) and is all but dead following the second loss (Luke).

Slackware wouldn't have been my first choice to make a accessible distribution with, it would have been Debian based on the non-free iso files with Multimedia sources added to make a useful release not one crippled by Debian developers insistence that everything used be open source or their meaning of "free".

Debian also is the only distro with an extremely active accessibility list, Didier the only developer of SLINT is an active member of that list. Recently that list has solved problems regarding ORCA the graphical user interface screen reader and advised the upstream ORCA developers about it.

If SLINT loses Didier it will probably find itself in the same situation that Vinux is in now: without a lead developer.

It's apparent to me that our numbers would be best served at contributing to an excellent active distribution that has fully integrated multiple screen readers, espeak, fenrir, voxin embedded (Eloquence), voxin IBM TTS, and I actually think there are even more that are supported, then by starting yet another distribution with a single developer.

Even though I've been a strong Vinux supporter from the start, it almost pains me to say that SLINT has accomplished everything that the two developers of Vinux ever wanted to accomplish and more.

Most of the applications that I still need Debian for are because SLINT didn't have the latest python but Didier just updated the python used in SLINT, so perhaps those applications I use Debian for will be added.

I'm not a developer, but it's obvious to me that those interested in a truly accessible distribution are small in number, that there are users who want both command line support (Debian is the undisputed leader in this) and excellent graphical user interface support with applications that have been selected to be as close to 100% accessible as possible. SLINT has this, and SLINT has only one developer, just like we did.

I've had my say. For myself, I think we should support what's already working and done. If any of you have an extra partition, install SLINT and try it out. I believe you'll see Didier has accomplished what no one else ever has.

If the original poster wants to help, join the Debian Accessibility list, that's a very worthy project also where his ideas working with others who are working with accessibility will be valued. All of the other accessibility lists are dead.

Best regards,

David Ring



chal...@gmail.com

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May 23, 2021, 12:41:04 PM5/23/21
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Ah, I see. I didn’t pick up on that sarcasm.

 

I agree with everything you say. I guess my one difference of opinion though is that although we can encourage the scarce resources working on Linux accessibility to work together, people are still going to be people and someone may just want to work on an Ubuntu distribution and not a Slackware distribution, or someone may want to try something on their own instead of trying to get a team to adopt their idea and so on. This is the beauty of Linux and open source, and although it might lead to some fragmentation, it also leads to more innovation. What would have happened if the Slint developer had been discouraged from doing his own thing and was directed to work with someone else? We may not have Slint in that case. Note this is just a hypothetical example. I don’t think this happened and I don’t think anyone is currently being discouraged from anything. People are just pointing out what’s already been done, which is a good thing.

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