money to burn
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jwd
Jul 30, 2012, 9:50:26 PM7/30/12
to victori...@googlegroups.com
I recently sent an e-mail as a follow-up to the last meeting which was on July 17th to Kerry Cantrell/property manager at Z&R. The following is initially what I sent him and thought that the residents of Victoria Village might be interested in this corresponence.....I hear now that the paving company to do the resealing has been finalized. As I understand it, American was chosen even though they are $3,000 more than any other bid and had to be persuaded to do the pot hole repairs for the three years when the other company had included free pot hole repair in their bid saving us $3,000. Jamie stated that it is only $3,000 and she would rather stick with who they had used before even though it was costing us an extra $3,000. REALLY!!! After you stated that you had used the cheaper company on all of your other properties and I had commented on how nice your office parking lot looks and asked you who had done it, you said the cheaper company and you were very pleased with their work. That three thousand dollars we needlessly spent pays for alot of fence, shrubs, cement work or any other repairs we need in Victoria Village. I am now totally convinced we have a power struggle on the board and if we had not lost two members that were on the board, this vote would have never passed with a vote of three to two. Who is this beneficial to?? You really have to sit back and say hmmmm.........
Wayne Denniston
As an additional comment, today I was just informed by a resident that the mailman told him that a board member told the mailman that this re-sealing in Victoria Village cost us $22,900. Is it just me or does that seem a bit curious that our mail carrier would be privy to information before the residents of Victoria Village were told???
Deena Duncan
Jul 30, 2012, 11:13:09 PM7/30/12
to victori...@googlegroups.com
Wayne,
Having served on two BoD's previously, and having watched the bidding process on many occasions, I think that without more information, we can't legitimately say whether or not the $3,000.00 more than the lowest bid is too much or not.
$3,000.00 is 13.10% of $22,900.00, which means the two bids are pretty close to each other.
To assess the bids, it would help greatly to know the following:
As for the mailman, I don't really have any comment except that my dad was a mailman many years ago in Los Angeles after he left the service, and I know from him that they are aware of most of what is going on in a neighborhood, for better or worse. I wasn't personally aware of the cost before you mentioned it, but didn't think to ask anyone. If you were refused the information, that would be one thing, but just the fact that they mailman knew doesn't really say anything (to me, anyway). He's here every day and could have been told by one of the people from the surfacing company; or a board member; or could have been told by someone else who knew.
Deena Duncan
Wayne wrote:
Having served on two BoD's previously, and having watched the bidding process on many occasions, I think that without more information, we can't legitimately say whether or not the $3,000.00 more than the lowest bid is too much or not.
$3,000.00 is 13.10% of $22,900.00, which means the two bids are pretty close to each other.
To assess the bids, it would help greatly to know the following:
- In addition to the two bids we're aware of, how many other bids were there?
- How much were those other bids for?
- If there were no other bids, why weren't there?
- Were any bids far out of range (more than 10-15%) with the others?
- What are the overall reputation and history of the bidders?
- How long have the bidders been in business?
- Were all of the bidders bonded, insured, and licensed (if necessary/required), etc.?
- Did the bidders guarantee a particular time frame? If not, did they guarantee the maximum length of the job? Did this fix into the time frame we had in mind?
- Do the bidders guarantee their work? For how long? Under what conditions? What are the limitations?
- Other factors - was the striping included? If not, were there bids for that job, and was the winning bid on that job time-dependent on the first half of the work?
As for the mailman, I don't really have any comment except that my dad was a mailman many years ago in Los Angeles after he left the service, and I know from him that they are aware of most of what is going on in a neighborhood, for better or worse. I wasn't personally aware of the cost before you mentioned it, but didn't think to ask anyone. If you were refused the information, that would be one thing, but just the fact that they mailman knew doesn't really say anything (to me, anyway). He's here every day and could have been told by one of the people from the surfacing company; or a board member; or could have been told by someone else who knew.
Deena Duncan
Wayne wrote:
I recently sent an e-mail as a follow-up to the last meeting which was on July 17th to Kerry Cantrell/property manager at Z&R. The following is initially what I sent him and thought that the residents of Victoria Village might be interested in this correspondence.....I hear now that the paving company to do the resealing has been finalized. As I understand it, American was chosen even though they are $3,000 more than any other bid and had to be persuaded to do the pot hole repairs for the three years when the other company had included free pot hole repair in their bid saving us $3,000. Jamie stated that it is only $3,000 and she would rather stick with who they had used before even though it was costing us an extra $3,000. REALLY!!! After you stated that you had used the cheaper company on all of your other properties and I had commented on how nice your office parking lot looks and asked you who had done it, you said the cheaper company and you were very pleased with their work. That three thousand dollars we needlessly spent pays for a lot of fence, shrubs, cement work or any other repairs we need in Victoria Village. I am now totally convinced we have a power struggle on the board and if we had not lost two members that were on the board, this vote would have never passed with a vote of three to two. Who is this beneficial to?? You really have to sit back and say hmmmm.........
CTYinVV
Jul 31, 2012, 8:07:48 PM7/31/12
to victori...@googlegroups.com
Well,,...I've got 2 cents too.
Let me be clear on the letter carrier issue first.
Our letter carrier has been on this route for over ten years, he left for another route for 3 years, then came back.
We are lucky to have him... and he loves it here.
I'm lucky to have him as a personal friend as well, Never does an Xmas go by without showing him my appreciation.
Of the 255 units here, how many can say the same. ??
I also find it unappreciative of the HOA not to acknowledge and thank him for his efforts at least one simple day of giving out out 365...
I guess he's just a federal employee, not a truly valued contractor of services in this community., tho he's here over 300 days a year,
and the other services we use like, grounds, paving painting etc are not.
They get the sweetheart deals instead.
He already puts up with more crap around here than one person should, certainly puts in more time than any
board member does, and he rarely complains except to ask that people pick up their mail.
As an ex Letter Carrier myself, I can tell you that yes..... they are expected to be the eyes and ears of the community on their routes, hence they know when something is out of place, people are supicious, etc. They are trained to listen, and observe. Yes, people come up to us alllll the time, and start conversations about everything under the sun.
Carriers know a lot about the people on their routes because they handle sensitive information.
They are taught discretion in Letter Carrier school.
Steve, as good a friend as he is, and even tho i am an ex carrier, is very conscientious about what he confides in me.
We know all about each other's families and we share jokes, and homegrown vegetables, and cookies, and sandwiches, and beer, and iced tea, and sometimes just need one another to talk to.
Thats on a personal level... because we've been friends a long time.
On a professional level, Steve is the best, and he knows this community and he knows that what you say to someone here can pop up across town before his route(s)
are over.
BUT, when a Board member tells him, not in confidence, specifics about contracts, Steve is not obliged to keep that to himself, it's his choice.
My question would be..
Why does the board member tell him specifics about the workings and in fighting at VV, in the first place??
Unlike residents, board members can't have it both way...they can't be secretive and vague, and then when they want to justify something, blab it all over the Victoria Villaage Network.
Maybe the board member is venting too, but I would suspect that board member is really disclosing it to use the letter carrier as the board member's on personal
messenger.
As a letter carrier you can tell when someone is just shooting the breeze, and you can tell if they are commenting about their neighbors garden,
and then again you can tell when they WANT those comments to spread to their neighbor about their garden, they just would rather someone else help with the gossip.
That... is NOT..what Steve our letter carrier will do. He's a professional.
A board member mentioned the price to Steve, only seconds before I spoke with him..it was still on his mind.. and he asked me casually what I think of it by saying, "22,9"
I replied, "22,9" what?"
He asked,"22,9 for doing this".. as he pointed to the parking lot work going on.
I told him, "I suppose, if it's the lowest price, I guess it's a good one"
Now, THAT is the end and entirety of our letter carrier's comments.
I continued by telling him, my friend, while I waited for him to sort mail, " I wouldn't have spent it tho, and if I had to.. then I would have gone with the lowest bid I could find"
(end of discussion.)
That could be how the board member approached it too, tho IMHO, the board member's conversation should have, could have, been limited to explaining to the letter carrier
what work was being done, and how we may help him in his route, and when it will be finished.
Details of expenses should not have been discussed unless the board member was trying to justify to everyone via the mailman, AND the mailman, an unpopular expense as
many see it.
Back to my view,... I would tend to agree with Mr Denniston, I think it does look nice for now.
I think it is a piecemeal approach to "looks" and a "fake facade".
I think it could have should have been looked at more carefully as to necessity,
a) if we had to borrow $$ to pay for it, how badly do we need it, and will we still be paying it back to reserves long after it has turned grey and cracked and faded again?
b)and Even if it would save just $100 or $1, would it be worth it.
c) I see American come thru and get paid to patch the SAME old potholes every year...yet for some reason they are revered by 3 board members, or maybe just one and the others go along
d) It's not rocket science,, it's spray freekin oil sealant on the ground! Howmuch difference can there really be in "quality"
e) What was the rush?? a lot of projects seem to be "rushed" thu the board around here, using the same old companies by the same old board members, turns out the
"I know a guy that'll do it for near nothing" catchphrase....usually means exactly the opposite...
If nothing else, the property manger's input should have carried a lot of weight. If he uses another company, and all of his properties use them too, and that company is cheaper..
I have to ask... why...
why is one board member so set in his ways that he defies logical decisions.
why when confronted by the homeowners and residents about why it was done with a less expensive bid, he rebutts with how the "board" was the one that made the decision and
the "board" takes the responsibility and thoughti was the best idea.
Yet
The same board member will take credit for "arranging and overseeing it"..just not the responsibility and the heat when people question the wisdom of it.
So mucht hat he has to enlist the letter carriers opinion.
Thats the way I see it.
Yes it should have been done at the best price.
and when out of 7 board members, only 3 agreed to it... that is wrong.
The HOA board should have, with even the slightest ounce of integrity and transparency, waited until they had a unanimous decision.
But , it still smacks of specials interests rather than "community interest"
Too late now, tho.
It's too late to undo it,
It's too late to take the time to plan it over correctly,
it's too late to place handbills on the doors and/or cars to be SURE they moved on time, tho Steve and the USPS appreciated the letters of notification, as late as they were.
it's too late to get the paving company an accurate diagram of parking spots, one that isn't 20 yrs old and incomplete or redundant.
It's too late to do over. but it's not to late
to get involved so that it doesn't happen again.
it's not too late to end the back room wheeling and dealing.
it's not to late to ask the board to replace the vacant late Mr Smiths chair with..you...or me..rather than a special hand chosen minion.
It's not to late to run for the two board vacancies in November.
I'l be happy to help a board member.
Consider this an official request for your consideration as a VV HOA board member.
And anyone else reading this,... consider yourselves too,...
it doesn't have to be like this..it just doesn't.
May I start by recommending, yet again, and as per my discussion with our groundskeeper...
Why not enlist the aid of Colorado Springs Utilities dept to put our Utilites on Average Budget Billing??
I have spoken with them in person about that, have received a letter from then regarding their eagerness to help us
gain control of our utility expenses.
I've forwarded that to some people and board members, but as usual... they don't reply,.. rare that request are followed up on, or the
requestor informed as to what if anything is being addressed.
Budget billing will mean that you pay the very same amount every month of the year.
The same amount for water in December as you do in July, the same in Electricity in January as you do in August..
Before there is any knee jerk reaction to shutting off sprinklers, capping off lines, "xeriscaping" (which is just another word for dumping rocks all over where the grass is dead inorder to pay less water)
there should be first and foremost a grip on the expenses...one of our laargest expenses.
And the HOA board constantly complains about it..
Well... it doesn't have to be that way..
It just doesn't
(and maybe this year the HOA might have a few $ to buy our letter carrier a box of golf balls to show their appreciation)
Chris
Let me be clear on the letter carrier issue first.
Our letter carrier has been on this route for over ten years, he left for another route for 3 years, then came back.
We are lucky to have him... and he loves it here.
I'm lucky to have him as a personal friend as well, Never does an Xmas go by without showing him my appreciation.
Of the 255 units here, how many can say the same. ??
I also find it unappreciative of the HOA not to acknowledge and thank him for his efforts at least one simple day of giving out out 365...
I guess he's just a federal employee, not a truly valued contractor of services in this community., tho he's here over 300 days a year,
and the other services we use like, grounds, paving painting etc are not.
They get the sweetheart deals instead.
He already puts up with more crap around here than one person should, certainly puts in more time than any
board member does, and he rarely complains except to ask that people pick up their mail.
As an ex Letter Carrier myself, I can tell you that yes..... they are expected to be the eyes and ears of the community on their routes, hence they know when something is out of place, people are supicious, etc. They are trained to listen, and observe. Yes, people come up to us alllll the time, and start conversations about everything under the sun.
Carriers know a lot about the people on their routes because they handle sensitive information.
They are taught discretion in Letter Carrier school.
Steve, as good a friend as he is, and even tho i am an ex carrier, is very conscientious about what he confides in me.
We know all about each other's families and we share jokes, and homegrown vegetables, and cookies, and sandwiches, and beer, and iced tea, and sometimes just need one another to talk to.
Thats on a personal level... because we've been friends a long time.
On a professional level, Steve is the best, and he knows this community and he knows that what you say to someone here can pop up across town before his route(s)
are over.
BUT, when a Board member tells him, not in confidence, specifics about contracts, Steve is not obliged to keep that to himself, it's his choice.
My question would be..
Why does the board member tell him specifics about the workings and in fighting at VV, in the first place??
Unlike residents, board members can't have it both way...they can't be secretive and vague, and then when they want to justify something, blab it all over the Victoria Villaage Network.
Maybe the board member is venting too, but I would suspect that board member is really disclosing it to use the letter carrier as the board member's on personal
messenger.
As a letter carrier you can tell when someone is just shooting the breeze, and you can tell if they are commenting about their neighbors garden,
and then again you can tell when they WANT those comments to spread to their neighbor about their garden, they just would rather someone else help with the gossip.
That... is NOT..what Steve our letter carrier will do. He's a professional.
A board member mentioned the price to Steve, only seconds before I spoke with him..it was still on his mind.. and he asked me casually what I think of it by saying, "22,9"
I replied, "22,9" what?"
He asked,"22,9 for doing this".. as he pointed to the parking lot work going on.
I told him, "I suppose, if it's the lowest price, I guess it's a good one"
Now, THAT is the end and entirety of our letter carrier's comments.
I continued by telling him, my friend, while I waited for him to sort mail, " I wouldn't have spent it tho, and if I had to.. then I would have gone with the lowest bid I could find"
(end of discussion.)
That could be how the board member approached it too, tho IMHO, the board member's conversation should have, could have, been limited to explaining to the letter carrier
what work was being done, and how we may help him in his route, and when it will be finished.
Details of expenses should not have been discussed unless the board member was trying to justify to everyone via the mailman, AND the mailman, an unpopular expense as
many see it.
Back to my view,... I would tend to agree with Mr Denniston, I think it does look nice for now.
I think it is a piecemeal approach to "looks" and a "fake facade".
I think it could have should have been looked at more carefully as to necessity,
a) if we had to borrow $$ to pay for it, how badly do we need it, and will we still be paying it back to reserves long after it has turned grey and cracked and faded again?
b)and Even if it would save just $100 or $1, would it be worth it.
c) I see American come thru and get paid to patch the SAME old potholes every year...yet for some reason they are revered by 3 board members, or maybe just one and the others go along
d) It's not rocket science,, it's spray freekin oil sealant on the ground! Howmuch difference can there really be in "quality"
e) What was the rush?? a lot of projects seem to be "rushed" thu the board around here, using the same old companies by the same old board members, turns out the
"I know a guy that'll do it for near nothing" catchphrase....usually means exactly the opposite...
If nothing else, the property manger's input should have carried a lot of weight. If he uses another company, and all of his properties use them too, and that company is cheaper..
I have to ask... why...
why is one board member so set in his ways that he defies logical decisions.
why when confronted by the homeowners and residents about why it was done with a less expensive bid, he rebutts with how the "board" was the one that made the decision and
the "board" takes the responsibility and thoughti was the best idea.
Yet
The same board member will take credit for "arranging and overseeing it"..just not the responsibility and the heat when people question the wisdom of it.
So mucht hat he has to enlist the letter carriers opinion.
Thats the way I see it.
Yes it should have been done at the best price.
and when out of 7 board members, only 3 agreed to it... that is wrong.
The HOA board should have, with even the slightest ounce of integrity and transparency, waited until they had a unanimous decision.
But , it still smacks of specials interests rather than "community interest"
Too late now, tho.
It's too late to undo it,
It's too late to take the time to plan it over correctly,
it's too late to place handbills on the doors and/or cars to be SURE they moved on time, tho Steve and the USPS appreciated the letters of notification, as late as they were.
it's too late to get the paving company an accurate diagram of parking spots, one that isn't 20 yrs old and incomplete or redundant.
It's too late to do over. but it's not to late
to get involved so that it doesn't happen again.
it's not too late to end the back room wheeling and dealing.
it's not to late to ask the board to replace the vacant late Mr Smiths chair with..you...or me..rather than a special hand chosen minion.
It's not to late to run for the two board vacancies in November.
I'l be happy to help a board member.
Consider this an official request for your consideration as a VV HOA board member.
And anyone else reading this,... consider yourselves too,...
it doesn't have to be like this..it just doesn't.
May I start by recommending, yet again, and as per my discussion with our groundskeeper...
Why not enlist the aid of Colorado Springs Utilities dept to put our Utilites on Average Budget Billing??
I have spoken with them in person about that, have received a letter from then regarding their eagerness to help us
gain control of our utility expenses.
I've forwarded that to some people and board members, but as usual... they don't reply,.. rare that request are followed up on, or the
requestor informed as to what if anything is being addressed.
Budget billing will mean that you pay the very same amount every month of the year.
The same amount for water in December as you do in July, the same in Electricity in January as you do in August..
Before there is any knee jerk reaction to shutting off sprinklers, capping off lines, "xeriscaping" (which is just another word for dumping rocks all over where the grass is dead inorder to pay less water)
there should be first and foremost a grip on the expenses...one of our laargest expenses.
And the HOA board constantly complains about it..
Well... it doesn't have to be that way..
It just doesn't
(and maybe this year the HOA might have a few $ to buy our letter carrier a box of golf balls to show their appreciation)
Chris
CTYinVV
Jul 31, 2012, 8:46:46 PM7/31/12
to victori...@googlegroups.com
oh.. and one more thing....
If they were looking for "freebies" when considering bids for the parking and painting... why oh why
wouldn't you include repainting the red firelane curbs along with either the original bids, or the "extras thrown in"
Now before you start to answer with" well, it would have cost more $"... think about it... you had over $3,000 to play with....
I guess we'll always have to rely on volunteers... who could we get,hmm who could we get...
maaybe the guy that sanded & painted 111 hand railings last year that took up a total of 3 and 1/2 football fields in length...??
Oh wait...thats ME.. I guess we can rule that out, any one else want to volunteer to paint red curbs that should have been included in this special deal seal coating and striping??
Is it just me that considers firelane curbs and speed bumps part of refinishing the parking lots and drivways and street?
Show of hands here please, who wants to paint?? ;)
If they were looking for "freebies" when considering bids for the parking and painting... why oh why
wouldn't you include repainting the red firelane curbs along with either the original bids, or the "extras thrown in"
Now before you start to answer with" well, it would have cost more $"... think about it... you had over $3,000 to play with....
I guess we'll always have to rely on volunteers... who could we get,hmm who could we get...
maaybe the guy that sanded & painted 111 hand railings last year that took up a total of 3 and 1/2 football fields in length...??
Oh wait...thats ME.. I guess we can rule that out, any one else want to volunteer to paint red curbs that should have been included in this special deal seal coating and striping??
Is it just me that considers firelane curbs and speed bumps part of refinishing the parking lots and drivways and street?
Show of hands here please, who wants to paint?? ;)
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