[verona-road-justice-coalition:26] Some thoughts from a civil engineer
4 views
Skip to first unread message
Jim Lyne
May 21, 2010, 1:08:20 PM5/21/10
to Verona Road Justice Coalition
The following are some comments from a civil engineer familiar with
these types of road construction projects. These are interesting
comments that should get some conversation going. jim
*-*-*
"They could maybe force the issue of the DOT doing a full study on the
South Reliever. From my EIS preparation training, I seem to recall
something about the DOT having to consider a full corridor, rather
than breaking it up into small segments. One might argue that the
interstate, beltline and Verona Rd. are one big system and should all
be considered in one big EIS.
"What I see from the 4/7/2010 powerpoint deck is that traffic will go
up with the south reliever from ~60,000 cars per day to ~70,000 cars
per day. Without the south reliever, it will go up to ~80,000 cars per
day. In other words, the south reliever would take ~12% of the traffic
from Verona Rd. Not a very compelling argument for the cost of
building a few miles of road on new corridor. Keep in mind that any
road they build would be 4-lane divided highway with interchanges, so
the cost per mile would be pretty high. They wouldn't build anything
less than full interchanges because they'd want to prevent another
situation like this in the future. These numbers show that most of the
traffic is basically people from Verona and west going to/from work in
Madison. A south reliever will never take away these trips.
"Noise barriers are a tough thing because the DOT are limited by
federal rules on how much they can spend on it. Most of these projects
are funded 80-90% by the fed's, so what the fed's say is important.
The DOT always build to fed standards to get federal funding, or they
could never afford any of these projects.
"The accidents rate are really high. Accident rates are usually a big
factor in urban construction projects.
"By reducing the number of stoplights, you might actually see a
decrease in the amount of airborne pollution, even if the traffic goes
up. Most of the pollution from cars and trucks comes when they need to
get going from a full stop. The fewer stops, the less pollution.
"There's a lot of pedestrian traffic in this area. People tend to
cross the road wherever it is convenient, despite one pedestrian
tunnel, one bridge and one stoplight. The current stoplights aren't
ideal for pedestrians, but it is really tough to accommodate
pedestrian traffic when vehicle traffic is so high.
"Mass transit options are a tough sell. You could spend tens of
millions of dollars on a very aggressive mass transit plan and still
only reduce traffic by 20% (if you're lucky). I like mass transit more
than most and I still think it's a tough sell."
these types of road construction projects. These are interesting
comments that should get some conversation going. jim
*-*-*
"They could maybe force the issue of the DOT doing a full study on the
South Reliever. From my EIS preparation training, I seem to recall
something about the DOT having to consider a full corridor, rather
than breaking it up into small segments. One might argue that the
interstate, beltline and Verona Rd. are one big system and should all
be considered in one big EIS.
"What I see from the 4/7/2010 powerpoint deck is that traffic will go
up with the south reliever from ~60,000 cars per day to ~70,000 cars
per day. Without the south reliever, it will go up to ~80,000 cars per
day. In other words, the south reliever would take ~12% of the traffic
from Verona Rd. Not a very compelling argument for the cost of
building a few miles of road on new corridor. Keep in mind that any
road they build would be 4-lane divided highway with interchanges, so
the cost per mile would be pretty high. They wouldn't build anything
less than full interchanges because they'd want to prevent another
situation like this in the future. These numbers show that most of the
traffic is basically people from Verona and west going to/from work in
Madison. A south reliever will never take away these trips.
"Noise barriers are a tough thing because the DOT are limited by
federal rules on how much they can spend on it. Most of these projects
are funded 80-90% by the fed's, so what the fed's say is important.
The DOT always build to fed standards to get federal funding, or they
could never afford any of these projects.
"The accidents rate are really high. Accident rates are usually a big
factor in urban construction projects.
"By reducing the number of stoplights, you might actually see a
decrease in the amount of airborne pollution, even if the traffic goes
up. Most of the pollution from cars and trucks comes when they need to
get going from a full stop. The fewer stops, the less pollution.
"There's a lot of pedestrian traffic in this area. People tend to
cross the road wherever it is convenient, despite one pedestrian
tunnel, one bridge and one stoplight. The current stoplights aren't
ideal for pedestrians, but it is really tough to accommodate
pedestrian traffic when vehicle traffic is so high.
"Mass transit options are a tough sell. You could spend tens of
millions of dollars on a very aggressive mass transit plan and still
only reduce traffic by 20% (if you're lucky). I like mass transit more
than most and I still think it's a tough sell."
Jim Lyne
May 21, 2010, 1:15:38 PM5/21/10
to Verona Road Justice Coalition
Responses from a local road warrior ((in parentheses))
On May 21, 12:08 pm, Jim Lyne <jwl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The following are some comments from a civil engineer familiar with
> these types of road construction projects. These are interesting
> comments that should get some conversation going. jim
>
> *-*-*
>
> "They could maybe force the issue of the DOT doing a full study on the
> South Reliever. From my EIS preparation training, I seem to recall
> something about the DOT having to consider a full corridor, rather
> than breaking it up into small segments. One might argue that the
> interstate, beltline and Verona Rd. are one big system and should all
> be considered in one big EIS.
((Interesting.))
>
> "What I see from the 4/7/2010 powerpoint deck is that traffic will go
> up with the south reliever from ~60,000 cars per day to ~70,000 cars
> per day. Without the south reliever, it will go up to ~80,000 cars per
> day. In other words, the south reliever would take ~12% of the traffic
> from Verona Rd. Not a very compelling argument for the cost of
> building a few miles of road on new corridor. Keep in mind that any
> road they build would be 4-lane divided highway with interchanges, so
> the cost per mile would be pretty high. They wouldn't build anything
> less than full interchanges because they'd want to prevent another
> situation like this in the future. These numbers show that most of the
> traffic is basically people from Verona and west going to/from work in
> Madison. A south reliever will never take away these trips.
((DOT admits a reliever would divert significant truck traffic. Truck
traffic produces 10 times the noise as a car and significantly more
pollution. Changing 151 to a interstate backbone from Madison to
Interstate 80 has greatly increased truck traffic on Verona Road. In
addition, DOT admits the Beltline is currently operating at near
capacity. If Dane County continues its growth as project, traffic on
the Beltline will be at gridlock and more local traffic will use city
streets such as Nakoma, Midvale, Mineral Point and University. DOT
should have developed parallel plans for both Verona Road and a
Beltline reliever, but there is no political will according to DOT -
meaning neither Kathleen Falk, Town of Dunn or MPO want development to
the south. DOT is happy to send their transportation money to
Milwaukee and the traffic to low income, less powerful
neighborhoods.))
>
> "Noise barriers are a tough thing because the DOT are limited by
> federal rules on how much they can spend on it. Most of these projects
> are funded 80-90% by the fed's, so what the fed's say is important.
> The DOT always build to fed standards to get federal funding, or they
> could never afford any of these projects.
((Actually, the impediment to building noise barriers is a State law.
The Federal Highway Administration goes along with State law - though
a FHWA representative at meeting with neighborhood representatives and
DOT admitted they don't like the standards. The law is limited to
$30,000 cost per residence - interestingly, they cite build cost at
$33,000 for homes west of Verona Rd - sorry we can only spend $30,000
so we will do nothing saving $30,000 per home.))
>
> "The accidents rate are really high. Accident rates are usually a big
> factor in urban construction projects.
((One wonders how many people living along the road will die from
traffic related poisons and how this compares with accident related
deaths. Not my department says Wisconsin DOT. So, there will be no
monitoring of pollution.))
>
> "By reducing the number of stoplights, you might actually see a
> decrease in the amount of airborne pollution, even if the traffic goes
> up. Most of the pollution from cars and trucks comes when they need to
> get going from a full stop. The fewer stops, the less pollution.
((Stop lights will remain at Raymond Road and Williamsburg Way for 20
more years. If traffic increases follow the pattern of the last 30
years, twice as many cars and up to 10 times as many trucks will be
idling at these intersections. I don't think I can hold my breath for
20 years. Even if traffic speed increases, noise levels will
increase geometriclly as speed has a dramatic impact on noise from
vehicles-as does acceleration from stop lights.))
>
> "There's a lot of pedestrian traffic in this area. People tend to
> cross the road wherever it is convenient, despite one pedestrian
> tunnel, one bridge and one stoplight. The current stoplights aren't
> ideal for pedestrians, but it is really tough to accommodate
> pedestrian traffic when vehicle traffic is so high.
>
> "Mass transit options are a tough sell. You could spend tens of
> millions of dollars on a very aggressive mass transit plan and still
> only reduce traffic by 20% (if you're lucky). I like mass transit more
> than most and I still think it's a tough sell."
((If you want to see how effective mass transit has been diverting
traffic from Verona, check the Epic sponsored bus that goes from West
Transfer to several stops in Verona.))
On May 21, 12:08 pm, Jim Lyne <jwl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The following are some comments from a civil engineer familiar with
> these types of road construction projects. These are interesting
> comments that should get some conversation going. jim
>
> *-*-*
>
> "They could maybe force the issue of the DOT doing a full study on the
> South Reliever. From my EIS preparation training, I seem to recall
> something about the DOT having to consider a full corridor, rather
> than breaking it up into small segments. One might argue that the
> interstate, beltline and Verona Rd. are one big system and should all
> be considered in one big EIS.
>
> "What I see from the 4/7/2010 powerpoint deck is that traffic will go
> up with the south reliever from ~60,000 cars per day to ~70,000 cars
> per day. Without the south reliever, it will go up to ~80,000 cars per
> day. In other words, the south reliever would take ~12% of the traffic
> from Verona Rd. Not a very compelling argument for the cost of
> building a few miles of road on new corridor. Keep in mind that any
> road they build would be 4-lane divided highway with interchanges, so
> the cost per mile would be pretty high. They wouldn't build anything
> less than full interchanges because they'd want to prevent another
> situation like this in the future. These numbers show that most of the
> traffic is basically people from Verona and west going to/from work in
> Madison. A south reliever will never take away these trips.
traffic produces 10 times the noise as a car and significantly more
pollution. Changing 151 to a interstate backbone from Madison to
Interstate 80 has greatly increased truck traffic on Verona Road. In
addition, DOT admits the Beltline is currently operating at near
capacity. If Dane County continues its growth as project, traffic on
the Beltline will be at gridlock and more local traffic will use city
streets such as Nakoma, Midvale, Mineral Point and University. DOT
should have developed parallel plans for both Verona Road and a
Beltline reliever, but there is no political will according to DOT -
meaning neither Kathleen Falk, Town of Dunn or MPO want development to
the south. DOT is happy to send their transportation money to
Milwaukee and the traffic to low income, less powerful
neighborhoods.))
>
> "Noise barriers are a tough thing because the DOT are limited by
> federal rules on how much they can spend on it. Most of these projects
> are funded 80-90% by the fed's, so what the fed's say is important.
> The DOT always build to fed standards to get federal funding, or they
> could never afford any of these projects.
The Federal Highway Administration goes along with State law - though
a FHWA representative at meeting with neighborhood representatives and
DOT admitted they don't like the standards. The law is limited to
$30,000 cost per residence - interestingly, they cite build cost at
$33,000 for homes west of Verona Rd - sorry we can only spend $30,000
so we will do nothing saving $30,000 per home.))
>
> "The accidents rate are really high. Accident rates are usually a big
> factor in urban construction projects.
traffic related poisons and how this compares with accident related
deaths. Not my department says Wisconsin DOT. So, there will be no
monitoring of pollution.))
>
> "By reducing the number of stoplights, you might actually see a
> decrease in the amount of airborne pollution, even if the traffic goes
> up. Most of the pollution from cars and trucks comes when they need to
> get going from a full stop. The fewer stops, the less pollution.
more years. If traffic increases follow the pattern of the last 30
years, twice as many cars and up to 10 times as many trucks will be
idling at these intersections. I don't think I can hold my breath for
20 years. Even if traffic speed increases, noise levels will
increase geometriclly as speed has a dramatic impact on noise from
vehicles-as does acceleration from stop lights.))
>
> "There's a lot of pedestrian traffic in this area. People tend to
> cross the road wherever it is convenient, despite one pedestrian
> tunnel, one bridge and one stoplight. The current stoplights aren't
> ideal for pedestrians, but it is really tough to accommodate
> pedestrian traffic when vehicle traffic is so high.
>
> "Mass transit options are a tough sell. You could spend tens of
> millions of dollars on a very aggressive mass transit plan and still
> only reduce traffic by 20% (if you're lucky). I like mass transit more
> than most and I still think it's a tough sell."
traffic from Verona, check the Epic sponsored bus that goes from West
Transfer to several stops in Verona.))
Susan De Vos
May 22, 2010, 3:33:33 PM5/22/10
to verona-road-ju...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for sending these comments. I wish people could use this
listserv directly so we could see all such comments. I can't help
expressing my dismay at comments made in the second message however.
> > "Mass transit options are a tough sell. You could spend tens of > millions of dollars on a very aggressive mass transit plan and still > only reduce traffic by 20% (if you're lucky). I like mass transit more > than most and I still think it's a tough sell."((If you want to see how effective mass transit has been diverting traffic from Verona, check the Epic sponsored bus that goes from West Transfer to several stops in Verona.))
While calling mass transit a "hard sell" is probably just being honest
(if perhaps wrong), it is not the case that the Epic sponsored bus is
a good example of what decent transit could look like. Saying so is
meant to be derogatory and snide but comes across as unimaginative and
well, stupid.
Despite lip service given to the possibility of a Rapid Bus line in future plans by WisDOT's 2030 Plan, the idea was nixed for the costly Verona Rd. update. If you did a cost/benefit analysis comparing 10s of millions of dollars vs. the hundreds of millions of dollars proposed, a mass transit option that took away even 10% of the traffic would look good. Residents of Verona would use transit if it could be competitive with the automobile and eliminate the need to find parking on the other end. The current Epic sponsored bus line is a far cry from that. Bus Rapid Transit that went straight from downtown Verona to downtown Madison, only stopping a few times the entire way, and without snaking around endlessly, could do wonders! There would also need to be good transit within the city of Madison itself (another story).
Susan De Vos
Jim Lyne wrote:
Despite lip service given to the possibility of a Rapid Bus line in future plans by WisDOT's 2030 Plan, the idea was nixed for the costly Verona Rd. update. If you did a cost/benefit analysis comparing 10s of millions of dollars vs. the hundreds of millions of dollars proposed, a mass transit option that took away even 10% of the traffic would look good. Residents of Verona would use transit if it could be competitive with the automobile and eliminate the need to find parking on the other end. The current Epic sponsored bus line is a far cry from that. Bus Rapid Transit that went straight from downtown Verona to downtown Madison, only stopping a few times the entire way, and without snaking around endlessly, could do wonders! There would also need to be good transit within the city of Madison itself (another story).
Susan De Vos
Jim Lyne wrote:
Responses from a local road warrior ((in parentheses)) [snip]
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages