Re: Determination Of Varna In Radha KaVACA

[niscala dasi]

an excellently thought out and practical model, well-adjusted to
present time, place and circumstance, with emphasis on the essential
characteristics. Just as a person chooses his ashrama, according to
his honest self-analysis about his realistic level of renunciation, it
is not any different with varna. But if a person is attracted to the
leadership varnas- brahmana or ksatriya- he should analyze also
whether his attraction is because of a desire for service in that way,
or because he wants a position of prestige and honour.

Therefore, in the gita, when Krsna describes the qualities of work of
the sudras and vaisyas, He simply describes what they do- labour, or
cow protection etc. Whatever they are drawn to do, that is their
varna. However, when He describes the qualities of work of the
ksatriya and the brahmana, He describes actual qualities- thus if a
person does not have generosity, determination, courage, etc he is not
a ksatriya by definition, even if he covets the position, for if he
does so covet, he will bring only chaos and misery, the opposite
effect of genuine VA. Although his forte is to offer protection in
all circumstances- such requires a generous spirit, full of
determination and courage to overcome the difficulties that may arise
from within and without in such an endeavour. Without such qualities,
driven only by ambition, he covets the post, and is a ksatriya in name
only...

This was Arjuna's dilemma- his soft-heartedness meant that he was
reluctant to kill those who supported the leadership of Duryodhana,
who was a murderer and rapist and who aspired to leadership of the
known world at that time. It took a huge amount of courage and
determination, for Arjuna to do his duty properly.

It also takes great courage and generosity of spirit to support and
honour brahmanas or naturally truthful persons, who give painfully
honest -and uncompromising -feedback, at times. In the past, our GBC
have silenced them, being fearful of consequences to their leadership,
and so they have excommunicated several members, labelling them
"envious", "trouble-makers" and so on. They have passed resolutions
recommending excommunication for people who challenge the authority of
the GBC (who were defined as ksatriyas by SP in his will- "managerial
authority"). These resolutions, which have become ISKCON law, ensure
the continuity of the dynamic of blind following of the ksatriya
leadership. Such legally enforced suppression- of truth spoken for the
welfare of all, is anti-varnashrama. In VA, if someone, anyone, is
giving truthful feedback it should be listened to, and acted upon, not
suppressed by law. This is the answer to the problem of scandal and
cover-up. Beyond that, it is simply good management policy to get
honest feedback from objective disinterested sources- in business,
that has to be outside the company. A brahmana is such a source- he
must be, in this way, "in the world, but not of it" - not relying on
the perks and profits of the association, for he can depend on what
nature provides, but concerned with it, only for the sake of the
people in it. Such requires that he be naturally asutere, self-
controlled, detached, etc




On Oct 15, 10:59 pm, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam
<shri.apurvadapari...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings all,
>
> My sole purpose for posting this is the attempt to stimulate
> application of concepts in real life. Endless discussion of a concept
> in multifarious permutations does not necessarily lead to application
> and tangible benefit for others. In the current time frame, wherein
> human society is fast approaching a critical juncture, in which Global
> Civilization collapses, due to fossil fuel and strategic resource
> depletion, a much stronger focus on concept application is strongly
> demanded. In the background, those who revel in "discussion for the
> sake of discussion" may find solace for restless minds, but, in their
> foreground, the Kshatriya Varna is invited to do the needful.
>
> Basic Ideology
>
> [1] Varna is an occupational engagement. As such, it is an activity
> with specific qualities or characteristics of work, as described in
> Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 18, Verses 41 -45. Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 14
> describes the three modes of material nature along with the kinds of
> activity they induce. According to Verse 10, the modes are in constant
> fluctuation, blending and competition. As such, no person is 100% in
> any particular mode all the time. The modes of nature also influence
> ones activity and selection of Varna.
>
> [2] Varna is not something imprinted onto a person by external forces,
> such as astrology, psychology, guru, birth, society, geographic
> location, etc. In the event of attempted artificial external
> imposition, by self or others, a person will still end up acting
> according to their innate combination of modes and interests. BG 3 - 5
> & 33. In all cases, an individual will be attracted to certain kinds
> of activity, naturally. Others may engage in all kinds of research,
> psychology, astrology, social engineering, comparative analysis,
> discussion and debate, etc., but, in the final analysis, when all is
> said and done, a person will gravitate to a specific activity, and
> that is how their Varna is understood. They choose it and, by acting
> in it, the world knows their Varna. Srimad-Bhagavatam, 7.11.35: “If
> one  shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or
> sudra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different
> class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of
> classification.”
>
> [3] To determine which Varna a person is in is accomplished by
> observing what activity they perform. If a person spends time working
> with cows, that is the Vaishya Varna. If a different person spends
> time organizing the society, protecting it and ensuring everyone is
> properly engaged, that is the Kshatriya Varna. The same goes for
> Brahmans and Shudras. Bhagavad Gita Chapter 18, Verses 41 - 46 outline
> the categories of Varna activity and character along with how they are
> applied to devotional service.
>
> [4] In a Radha KaVACA Community, secondary attention is payed to the
> modes in which a person is situated. The modes naturally impel action
> in a specific Varna or Varnas. Primary attention is payed to Varna
> activity. The modes a person is in are gradually purified through the
> practice of pure devotional service, toward the mode of transcendental
> goodness. The particular mode a person is in only becomes of primary
> interest when it impels behavior that becomes disruptive to the
> stability of the community. If, for example, a person acting in the
> Kshatriya Varna becomes too passionate and that impairs their ability
> to function and infringes on others, some remedial action is needed.
>
> Beyond these four points, no further discussion of how a person
> determines their Varna is needed. The next series of points show how
> Varna is determined in Radha KaVACA Communities.
>
> Entering Varna Of Choice
>
> [1] A prospective Varna participant is required to have read Bhagavad
> Gita, cover to cover, with special emphasis on Chapter 14 and Chaper
> 18.
>
> [2] They are offered a list of the four Varnas expanded into specific
> categories of activity and requirements available in Community.
>
> [3] They meet with a Community leader and engage in detailed question
> and answer dialogs about the Varna activities available in the
> Community in relation to their personal talents, interests and
> capacities.
>
> [4] They choose a single Varna to begin basic training. They enter
> that Varna and begin acting according to the requirements of the
> Varna.
>
> [5] After completing basic training, they are admitted to that Varna's
> Guild as an official member and, from there, undergo progressive
> training to the highest level of Varna Guild Master.
>
> [6] An individual may remain in a single Varna or may take training in
> other Varnas. According to natural talents, interest and capacity, one
> may advance as far as possible in as many Varna's as desired, provided
> moving from one Varna to another does not disrupt the functional
> integrity of the Community. A person may act in several Varnas during
> the period of a day, week, month, year or lifetime.
>
> [7] Multi-Varna training and activity permits individuals in Community
> inspired personal expression over their lifetime and qualification to
> participate in establishing new communities where specialization in a
> single Varna is not always possible, or even desirable.
>
> What was done in the past cannot be imported unchanged into the
> present with the same effects obtained in the past. The present is a
> different set of time, place and circumstantial considerations. The
> essential and universally constant ideas of Varna must be maintined
> for the integrity of society, but, specific details can be adjusted
> and unique innovations derived to suit time, place and circumstance.
> Chaitanya Vaishnava preceptors are capable of stepping outside the
> influence and constraints of the rigid boundary and ossification
> processes that hamper "smarta brahman thinking" and attachment to
> shastric injunctions meant for ages now past. Our founding preceptor,
> Shrila Bhaktivinode Thakur has illuminated these concepts of
> innovation in "The Bhagavata: Its Philosphy, It's Ethics, and It's
> Theology"
>
> Foundation For Success
>
> The foundation for the success of this system is threefold:
>
> [1] Hari Nam and/or Gayatri Diksha and Shiksha by a bonafide Gaudiya
> Vaishnava Spiritual Master with submissive aural reception and
> obedient guided practice.
> [2] Abandonment of fruitive work as a wage or profit slave in the
> surrounding mundane civilization.
> [3] Residence in an Urban Monastery or Rural Village.
>
> Item [1] ensures proper connection to the Sampradaya, with adequate
> guidance in philosophy, theology, sadhana practice and development of
> Daivi Varnashram Urban Monasteries and Rural Villages.
>
> Item [2], as demanded by Guru and Shastra, ensures that disciples are
> protected from the effects of fruitive work, wage/profit slavery and
> bad association.
>
> Item [3], as demanded by Guru, ensures that disciples have a
> supportive environment in which to persue the application of their
> chosen Varna, within the paramaters of pure devotional service.
>
> Daivi Varnashram Devlopment cannot take place among disciples who are
> not willing to offer submissive aural reception and obedient guided
> practice to their Spiritual Master, or a suitable Shiksha
> representative. Furthermore, it cannot take place if disicples are
> addicted to wage and profit slavery as full time residents and
> participant/supporters of the mundane society.
>
> For Detractors, Critics And Others
>
> Some or many readers may have objections to this system. As seen
> above, this is a practical application in a real community. This is
> how it is done at Shri Apurvada Gramya Paridhi. This is not presented
> as food for inconclusive and unapplied philosophical discussion,
> debate and criticism, but, rather, an example of a logical, applied
> science.
>
> [1] Those who oppose it and wish to respond, are invited to present
> their alternative, as it is applied to the real life community in
> which they live. Readers here may then make a direct comparison
> between the systems presented and make adjustments to their systems,
> if they see fit. They may also engage in meaningful dialog to learn
> more about a particular alternative, in terms of success, challenges,
> progress, etc.
>
> [2] Those living in a Community that does not have a functioning
> system for Varna selection, and are seeking, may contact Shri Apurvada
> Paridhi for private dialog about how the one here is set up, with a
> view to copying it, modifying it and deriving one that works for their
> community. They may also contact the presenters of alternative
> systems. Such discussion has a specific end in mind and is exempt from
> open ended mental exercise.
>
> [3] Those who only want to expand and indulge in the penchant for
> philosophical discussion, debate, criticism, or, listening to
> themselves talk, with no intention of living in a spiritual community
> or applying what they discuss, are encouraged to get off the mental
> platform as soon as possible and start showing the efficacy of their
> ideas in real life settings, or, approach someone for training how to
> do so.
>
> Time and planned action are of the essence in this era.

[niscala dasi]

Dear Prabhupada dasa prabhu,

you wrote:

>>>> In your ideal Community, the one you dream of living in, what
> specifically would you set up as a system for determining Varna?
> Rather than post following this, I encourage you to start a new thread
> and call it something like Niscala Varna Determination. That way the
> readers can compare Niscala with Apurvada and get some ideas to work
> with in designing or modifying their own.

I respectfully decline that name change, as it is not about me, but
everyone who has an idea and wants to contribute.

Varna is not the concern of anyone but the person determining his
varna- whatever work he is drawn to- that is his varna. If he wants to
be a farm worker or a dairyman, that is sufficient reason to offer him
the training. Do you have a reason why a person who is attracted to
farm work might NOT be offered the service? Of course, if he is
physically disabled, then it would be ludicrous to give him physical
work to do, but is there another reason you are thinking of? If so,
please tell me, and if not, then it seems to me somewhat excessive to
conduct "in depth dialectic
> explorations of a persons desires, intentions, understandings,
> proclivities, talents, past activity, analysis of personal qualities,
> strengths, weaknesses, etc."

Why not just ask "what do you like to do?"

Such indepth analysis would be certainly necessary if the position one
aspires to is that of responsibility over others- that makes sense to
me. In any career, one needs so many qualifications for employment in
a position of responsibility, whereas in a menial position, enthusiasm
and desire to learn, are quite sufficient, usually.

It might be that you conduct the above indepth analysis only for
aspirants to higher varnas, but as your community is in the beginning
stages, and there are always far more needed at the bottom rung,
especially in a self-sufficient farm community, I suspect not so.

After all, as you say, if the choice of service turns out wrong for
that person, he can always change it. For example, he may in due
course, develop a taste for reading, and preaching, and want to jump
over a few varnas. Unless his humility is unshakeable, that should not
be encouraged- it may become a burden of false prestige. But even as a
sudra, he can read, and he can also preach, if his preaching is
effective and attractive to people, as well as not tainted by
speculation. Essentially, the focus of VA is devotional service,
which begins from hearing/reading and chanting/preaching. Anarthas
such as pratistha should be avoided, and it should be seen as
extremely advantageous and desirable to be in the sudra varna, as
naturally pratistha is absent. What could be better for a servant of
the servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord of the gopis,
then being a servant of the servant (vaisya) of the servant (ksatriya)
of the servant (brahmana pujari)- of the Lord of the gopis?

For this reason, looking at ISKCON and the long line of sannyasa
hopefuls, eagerly awaiting their tick of approval, I wonder why? Then
I think how few Bhagavatam classes in ISKCON I sat through- certainly
in the thousands, probably the tens of thousands- and no mention of
pratistha at all, in all that time. And all the assumptions that
accepting the danda was proof of advancement, until so many dandas
fell (not in obeisances to the diety, but to a woman... in some cases,
to a man... in one case, to a boy). Does it not all add up, or are we
all just really bad mathematicians?

I am glad, therefore, very glad that you are analyzing motivations-
helping people to analyze their motivations. I just diasgree that its
necessary before one moves on to do some simple work like gardening!
My motivation for gardening is very simple- I like to watch things
grow! And I really don't think it needs to be analyzed beyond
that! :)

y.s Niscala

On Oct 16, 3:37 pm, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam
<shri.apurvadapari...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings Shrimati Niscala Devi Dasi,
> PAMHO. AGTSP.
>
> Thank you for your kind and understanding words regarding the Varna
> selection process here at Shri Apurvada Gramya Paridhi.
>
> You are correct on these accounts:
> [1] A person may choose to act in a Varna for less than pure reasons.
> [2] A Varna is not only an activity but requires a specific character,
> as you refer to in Bhagavad Gita Chapter 18.
>
> The Vaishnava purificatory practices are transcendental in that, if
> properly performed, elevate a person beyond the three modes of
> material nature. This includes purification of material motivations
> and development of pure devotional intentions in whatever activity a
> person may perform in a Varna or Ashram. That is why abandonment of
> fruitive work in the mundane society as a wage/profit slave must be
> given up in favor of residence in an Urban Monastery or Rural Village.
> For one who remains addicted to fruitive work, wage/profit slavery and
> residence among the non-Vaishnavas, it is practically impossible to
> escape the smothering effects of the three modes of nature.
> Individuals such as Shrila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta
> Sarasvati and Shrila Bhaktivedanta Swami can do that, because they
> were "always" transcendental to the modes. We are not, and therefore,
> as followers of Shrila Prabhupad, must live in the shelter system he
> provided, namely an Urban Monastery or Rural Village. In this purified
> atmosphere, ones original material intentions are dissolved and
> replace by spiritual intentions that are meant to serve the well being
> of all.
>
> It is a well known psychological and pedagogical fact that character
> qualities can be learned. Using the Kshatriya as an example, a person
> can learn heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage,
> generosity, and leadership. If a person is incapable of learning
> those, a different Varna is in order. We cannot conclude that a
> Kshatriya has all abilities and qualities at the time of birth, since
> Gita also states all conditioned being are born into ignorance and
> delusion. A person born in a Kshatriya family is not automatically a
> Kshatriya, but may be strongly attracted to the Vaishya activities.
> This however, does not mean that person spontaneously knows everything
> about cows, for example. In every case of a general natural proclivity
> at birth, further expert training is required. In some very rare
> cases, a child prodigy is born who seems to know how to do something
> without training. For us, training in Varna and Ashram is needed.
> Shrila Prabhupad mentions time and time again that expert training is
> essential for all Varnas and Ashrams. Perhaps there is a glimmer of
> modal qualification, but, to become a genuine Kshatriya, for example,
> that needs to be nurtured over a long period of time.
>
> For these reasons, the initial dialogs enaged in, to determine Varna,
> are not cursory one hour chit-chats but, rather, in depth dialectic
> explorations of a persons desires, intentions, understandings,
> proclivities, talents, past activity, analysis of personal qualities,
> strengths, weaknesses, etc. From this dialectic exploration, the
> counselor and the Varna selector come to understand which Varna is
> best suited for that person at that time. When that person enters a
> Varna, he or she is not automatically qualified, but must undergo
> training through various stages of skill and character development.
> Along the way, via continued practice of Vaishnava purificatory
> practices, original ulterior motives are diminished and latent
> character qualities are brought to maturity by training and practice.
> It may turn out that person is not really suited for the Varna of
> first choice and a change is required.
>
> You are also correct that it takes courage to submit to those who give
> legitimate and sometimes painfully honest and uncompromising input
> regarding Varna selection. The same holds true about submission to
> those who give similar input regarding the fact that most devotees in
> the current time frame are not living in an Urban Monastery or Rural
> Village, are not properly following their vows of initiation and, in
> so many cases, are extremely resistant to taking any kind of valuable
> instruction how to remedy such a dangerous situation.
>
> Before or after Varna has been selected, the initiated disciple, or
> uninitiated candidate, must abandon fruitive work as a wage/profit
> slave supporting the mundane society and take shelter in the system
> provided by the immediate predecessor Acharyas. After shelter has been
> taken, the dialectic explorations can make a more clear determination
> which Varna is most suitable at that time. There is simply no use
> whatsoever in Varna discussion, dialectic exploration or selection, if
> an individual refuses to take shelter of the residential system meant
> to purify the modes of nature and establish one on the platform of
> pure devotional service. There can be virtually no establishment of
> Daivi Varnashram Urban Monasteries or Rural Villages by those who
> refuse to live in one. Such discussion is a type of oxymoron. I will
> not live in a Daivi Varnashram Community but I will incessantly
> discuss all aspects of such Communities.
>
> In this case, the only discussion needed is to determine why a
> particular person does not want to take full advantage of Shri
> Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's causeless mercy. If a person has immobilizing
> resistance to that mercy, and insists on remaining addicted to wage/
> profit slavery, no amount of Varna and Ashram discussion will remove
> the anchors and binding knots in the heart. After those anchors and
> knots have been removed, and the more auspicious residential venue has
> been taken shelter of, Varna talks have a systematic means by which
> they are understood and applied.
>
> Again I am making a point of the critical need for actual application
> directly in ones life, as soon as possible. To speak bluntly, the Hare
> Krishna movement is in deep deep trouble, in relationship to the
> Acharya's instructions for Daivi Varnashram Development and the
> impending collapse of Global Industrial Civilization. Unless pointed
> action is taken in advance of that collapse, Hare Krishna devotees
> around the world are going to be in severe distress, due to having
> made inadequate preparation for what has been written on the wall for
> decades.
>
> Now that I have clarified a few points regarding the system at Shri
> Apurvada Paridhi, I have this question for you,
> Niscala Devi Dasi.
>
> In your ideal Community, the one you dream of living in, what
> specifically would you set up as a system for determining Varna?
> Rather than post following this, I encourage you to start a new thread
> and call it something like Niscala Varna Determination. That way the
> readers can compare Niscala with Apurvada and get some ideas to work
> with in designing or modifying their own.
>
> With respect and appreciation
> Prabhupad Das

[Pancharatna das]

Dandavat pranams. Srila Prabhupada kijaya.

> It also takes great courage and generosity of spirit to support and
> honour brahmanas or naturally truthful persons, who give painfully
> honest -and uncompromising -feedback, at times. In the past, our GBC
> have silenced them, being fearful of consequences to their leadership,
> and so they have excommunicated several members, labelling them
> "envious", "trouble-makers" and so on. They have passed resolutions
> recommending excommunication for people who challenge the authority of
> the GBC (who were defined as ksatriyas by SP in his will- "managerial
> authority"). These resolutions, which have become ISKCON law, ensure
> the continuity of the dynamic of blind following of the ksatriya
> leadership. Such legally enforced suppression- of truth spoken for the
> welfare of all, is anti-varnashrama. In VA, if someone, anyone, is
> giving truthful feedback it should be listened to, and acted upon, not
> suppressed by law. This is the answer to the problem of scandal and
> cover-up. Beyond that, it is simply good management policy to get
> honest feedback from objective disinterested sources- in business,
> that has to be outside the company. A brahmana is such a source- he
> must be, in this way, "in the world, but not of it" - not relying on
> the perks and profits of the association, for he can depend on what
> nature provides, but concerned with it, only for the sake of the
> people in it. Such requires that he be naturally asutere, self-
> controlled, detached, etc

I find comments like this very disturbing. Where are the facts to back up
your assertions?

Please quote the " resolutions recommending excommunication for people who
challenge the authority of
the GBC." I find this comment to cast an extremely negative view and would
like to know the facts behind it.

Please give some examples (no names are needed just the circumstances) of
people who have been
"silenced" by the GBC.

Your servant,
Pancharatna dasa

[niscala dasi]

I find comments like this very disturbing. Where are the facts to back
up
> your assertions?
>
> Please quote the " resolutions recommending excommunication for people who
> challenge the authority of
> the GBC."

Under section 8 of the ISKCON lawbook, entitled "ISKCON members" ,
subsection 8.4.5 , entitled "Expulsion (excommunication) of ISKCON
members".
the GBC body may by 2/3 vote expel any member of ISKCON provided
that...
b. "the member is openly or flagrantly anatagonistic to the GBC/
ISKCON authority"

The requirement for excommunication is a 2/3 vote by the GBC but in my
case, it happened by the temple president acting alone, and the local
GBC deciding not to get involved ("hear no evil, see no evil"). The
reason why I got excommunicated is that I threatened to call the RSPCA
unless they unchained two bullocks who had been chained together for
several weeks so tightly they could not lie down and could hardly eat
or drink. Thus I was "openly and flagrantly anatagonistic to the GBC
or other ISKCON authority"... I was excommunicated from only one
temple, but they alerted the others that I was a trouble-maker, and I
was not allowed to get involved again as a full-time member.

Also, Kundali prabhu was effectively excommunicated, publicly branded
as having "turned against Prabhupada" (the decree even reached our far-
flung community at New Gokula, and shocked us some, as he had
previously given inspiring seminiars there) and forbidden to visit or
lecture at any ISKCON temple, because his "Our Mission" series
criticized the leadership flaws, and the foolishness of blindly
following. It offered positive suggestions, as well as analysis of the
modes of nature that affect devotional service and how to avoid that,
but all that was considered offensive- they did not even read it,
before they reached that conclusion.

In addition, returning to my personal testimony, they excommunicated
all people who had so much as gone to a lecture of Narayan Maharaja-
they were allowed neither service at New Gokula, nor even attendance
at the morning program- that was in place for years. Almost all the
temple's staff disappeared overnite, and me and my husband Kaliya
Krsna, whom you may know, were left to try to fill the entire diety
roster. The decree came from on high- Atmarama prabhu, whom you may
also know, who didn't live there and couldnt care less about the
difficulty we faced. The diety standards tumbled, and even to this
day, the roster is filled with paid pujaris, replacing all the
voluntary ones who were excommunicated.

All these people who had gone to a NM lecture had never canvassed to
convert ISKCON devotees before they were excommunicated. They
certainly canvassed after. Before the excommunication, NM was a
passing interest. Afterwards he was an obsession. That resolution tore
apart the community, and it went from all friends, to "us" and
"them".

Excommunication is not just a resolution. It is law- for anyone
"openly or flagrantly anatagonistic to the GBC/ ISKCON authority" and
since it is the GBC/ ISKCON authority who pass judgment on who is
"openly and flagrantly antagonistic" to them, they can interpret any
challenge to their authority in that way- even if the challenge is
based on cruelty to cows. There is no provision in this article for
conscience to play a role at all. It is blind following, or nothing-
you are out.

Please read the entire 8.4 if you have it. The process of
excommunication, which begins with censure, revolves around
challenging the GBC authority. There is no provision for
"conscientious objection" which is even allowed for in the military!

> Pancharatna dasa- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -