Are Talented Artists Sudras?
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Dhanesvara Das
Oct 14, 2010, 11:31:07 AM10/14/10
to Varnashrama Culture
Below is a letter that I received asking the above question, along
with my reply.
Respected Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances ! All glory to Srila Prabhupada !
You had recently sent out a message about a Varnasrama dharma
discussion forum. You wrote that it would include education, art and
culture - this caught my attention and I am sending a query that I
have been carrying around in my head for some time...
I serve as a Bhakti Sastri facilitator in the Mayapur Institute,
teaching Bhagavad-gita and Isopanisad to the ladies. Before joining, I
was studying and teaching history of art.
When I am not teaching in MI, I am based in south India and my
preaching field here ( college preaching ) is the interface between
mundane disciplines and the three modes of material nature.
My query :
Generally speaking, within the varnashrama system, artists (painters,
sculptors, architects, artisans, craftsmen...) fall in the sudra
varna.
But if an artist has got extraordinary ability ( "genius" ) and if his
artwork is not just technically superb but has also got the capacity
to evoke lofty emotions ( sentiments ) in the viewer , ( and thus
uplift him ) - would such work still be considered the product of
someone in sudra varna (predominantly mode of ignorance ?
I am thinking of the works of the Italian Renaissance painters who did
works that were commissioned by wealthy families, depicting biblical
scenes with expert sfumato techniques that helped to create a certain
mood.
This is what I studied at Oxford and I am trying to get a KC
perspective on it. If I can get a clarification, it would also help me
with my college preaching.
Thank you for your time.
Your servant,
Su-gita Vani Devi Dasi
Dear Su-gita Vani,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Please accept my apologies for this late reply. Thank you for your
query of October 7th, an important question that highlights the
general confusion surrounding the varnas. I will answer to the best of
my ability and then post the letter (but not your email address) on
our varnashrama forum to see if others have anything they would like
to add.
There is a common misconception within our ISKCON society that sudras
are dull, stupid and lazy people, ne’r-do-wells with no good
qualities. This likely due to the fact that we are told that sudras
are influenced strongly by the mode of ignorance. It is a fact
however, that the creative arts and performing arts, which are sudra
activities, are populated by intelligent and talented people, some of
exceptional genius. So how are we to reconcile these seemingly
contradictory concepts?
Generally I answer such questions by giving a brief overview of my
understanding of the varna system, and then apply that information to
the question. I will give some general comments and then comment
regarding time, place and circumstance.
The varnas are distinguished from each other by ability,
responsibility, time horizons, and scope of consciousness, each of
these increasing in going from sudra to brahmana. By ability we mean
capacity for dealing with the material energy. By responsibility we
mean the number of people that a person can actually be responsible
for. By scope of consciousness we mean the capacity of the individual
to be aware of, and concerned about the welfare of others.
Persons of a sudra nature generally limit the focus of their
activities. They want to do one thing which they may do extremely
well. But they haven’t the guna and karma to be concerned beyond that.
Using artists as a case in point, they may be genius at their work,
but their work possibly remains unknown because they lack the
initiative and ability of the vaisya to promote it and bring it to the
attention of others. Their consciousness is limited to the artistic
activity itself. And so it is with all of the sudra activities,
whether one is a bricklayer, a seamstress, a cook, or a singer. These
people focus on doing that one thing, generally the task at hand.
They are likely to also be limited in their ability to recognize and/
or care about the needs of others, beyond perhaps their own family.
They are only able to see to their immediate welfare, and haven’t the
ability to solve the problems of others. This is not a criticism. Just
as we cannot criticize a child for his inability, it is unreasonable
to expect more of any adult than they can give. This is simply the
limit of their God-given ability.
There are others who have greater ability in terms of conscious
awareness, organizational capacity, desire to work with groups of
people to accomplish specific tasks, with longer time horizons. The
desire to take on this type of work requires a different
consciousness, which develops due to the greater influence of passion.
Such a person is called a vaisya in the varnashrama culture. Vaisyas
will organize musicians into an orchestra and put on performances.
They will organize cooks and other servers to establish a restaurant.
They will organize carpenters and other tradesmen to build and sell
houses. And they will organize field laborers to produce foodstuffs.
And so on.
To do this organization requires that they see the possibility of a
specific result in the future and organize people to accomplish it.
They may or may not have the same technical ability of the people that
work for them, but they must fully understand the nature of that
activity, and know how to support it. They take responsibility for a
greater number of people, work with a future goal in mind, be able to
overcome problems that arise, and must be cognizant of all of the
necessary elements that will make the endeavor successful. In other
words, their consciousness, influenced more by passion, is able to
accommodate all of the elements to make the endeavor successful. Rajas
means creation, so due to its influence they want to create a result
and/or to create or increase wealth.
Now there are people, endowed with yet greater rajas and less tamas,
who have greater ability and are naturally drawn to organizing people
on an even greater level and seeing to their welfare. These would of
course be the ksatriyas. By their own nature they are drawn to
organization of large numbers of people, working on even greater time
horizons, and taking greater responsibility.
And at the top end of the scale are the brahmanas, who, by dint of
their being situated in the mode of goodness and more free from the
lower gunas, are able to consider the welfare of all persons, even on
an eternal time horizon. They are dealing not only with the present,
or near future, but the future lives, or eternal benefit of liberation
from the material world. Because the modes of passion and ignorance
are not predominant in their consciousness, they lack the motivation
to create and do things on the physical plane within society, and
instead apply their knowledge and understanding to the mental or
spiritual planes, working with concepts, ideas and spirit. Inclined to
teach they may have a school in their ashrama, but they will not
create large institutions. Of course in the modern day, men of a
vaisya nature have organized huge institutions of education called
universities, but these are lacking in true brahminical nature as the
place authority in a position, or seat, rather than in the qualified
individual person. Vedic culture places authority in a qualified
individual, not in an institution.
What Kind of Brahmana is This?
It is very important to note that when we speak of such brahmanas we
are not referring to those who become brahmana by diksa, but by guna
and karma, as described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, 7.11.35: “If one
shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, as
described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he
should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification.”
Devotees are often confused on this point due to the fact that we
learn from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings that any person can become
more than a brahmana by engaging in devotional service. Srila
Prabhupada explains this point in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, 4.31.10,
purport:
It is also stated that in this age of Kali, everyone is sudra due to
the absence of the garbhadhana-samskara. This is the Vedic system.
According to the pancaratrika system [the system followed in our
Gaudiya sampradaya], however, even though everyone is a sudra due to
the absence of the garbhadhana-samskara, if a person has but a little
tendency to become Krishna conscious, he should be given the chance to
elevate himself to the transcendental platform of devotional service.
Our Krishna consciousness movement adopts this pancaratrika-vidhi, as
advised by Srila Sanatana Goswami, who says: “As one can transform
bell metal into gold by treating it with mercury, one can also turn a
lowborn man into a brahmana by initiating him properly into Vaishnava
activities.”
We can understand the distinction between so-called brahmanas and the
devotees from the following verse, Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.10, explained
by Sri Prahlada:
If a brahmana has all twelve of the brahminical qualifications [as
they are stated in the book called Sanat-sujaata] but is not a devotee
and is averse to the lotus feet of the Lord, he is certainly lower
than a devotee who is a dog-eater but who has dedicated everything—
mind, words, activities, wealth and life—to the Supreme Lord. Such a
devotee is better than such a brahmana because the devotee can purify
his whole family, whereas the so-called brahmana in a position of
false prestige cannot purify even himself.
By proper initiation and by following the principles of devotional
service a devotee becomes greater than a brahmana because he has come
to the conclusion of the Vedas—worship of Krishna. That does not mean
that his guna and karma, his material nature, has changed. He may be a
street-sweeper without very great intelligence, and by practice of
sadhana and diksa has become a Vaishnava. He is now qualified to
worship the Lord on the altar, to perform sacrifices, etc. But he has
not somehow magically become an intellectual, or a brahmana by guna
and karma. When we speak of establishing the varnashrama culture we
should understand that brahmanas of both characteristics are needed.
Time, Place and Circumstance
The description of the varnas as given above is very general, and is
even perhaps ideal. Exactly *how* the inclinations of the varnas are
applied will vary according to time, place and circumstance. For
example, now, under the influence of Kali and rampant tamo-guna,
hardly anyone is properly doing their duty. And we see that in the
absence of a qualified ksatriya the ksatriya and vaisyas in charge of
the business enterprises and governments and are using their power and
control to exploit people rather than protect them. We often see that
all sections of society generally try to exploit the others, and Srila
Prabhupada gives the examples of labor and capitalists who attempt to
mutually exploit each other. We should not therefore try to understand
the nature of the varnas simply by observation of the dominant
culture. We should understand the ideal from shastra, and then
recognize how that ideal is perverted by the rampant influence of tamo-
guna in modern society.
Back to Your Question
With this background in mind, let us look at your question again. You
state:
But if an artist has got extraordinary ability ("genius") and if his
artwork is not just technically superb but has also got the capacity
to evoke lofty emotions (sentiments) in the viewer, (and thus uplift
him) - would such work still be considered the product of someone in
sudra varna (predominantly mode of ignorance)?
The answer is yes, the arts are all considered to be in the sudra
category because of the nature of the work. But this is not to say
that such people have no sattva or rajas whatsoever. Certainly they
can and do. But the influence of tamas here is that which limits the
extent to which they can apply their talents and abilities to the
welfare of others, to the time frame in which they typically operate,
and in the responsibility for others that they are generally able to
accept.
I hope that this satisfactorily answers your question. If not, please
feel free to write back.
In Srila Prabhupada's service, I am
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das
with my reply.
Respected Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances ! All glory to Srila Prabhupada !
You had recently sent out a message about a Varnasrama dharma
discussion forum. You wrote that it would include education, art and
culture - this caught my attention and I am sending a query that I
have been carrying around in my head for some time...
I serve as a Bhakti Sastri facilitator in the Mayapur Institute,
teaching Bhagavad-gita and Isopanisad to the ladies. Before joining, I
was studying and teaching history of art.
When I am not teaching in MI, I am based in south India and my
preaching field here ( college preaching ) is the interface between
mundane disciplines and the three modes of material nature.
My query :
Generally speaking, within the varnashrama system, artists (painters,
sculptors, architects, artisans, craftsmen...) fall in the sudra
varna.
But if an artist has got extraordinary ability ( "genius" ) and if his
artwork is not just technically superb but has also got the capacity
to evoke lofty emotions ( sentiments ) in the viewer , ( and thus
uplift him ) - would such work still be considered the product of
someone in sudra varna (predominantly mode of ignorance ?
I am thinking of the works of the Italian Renaissance painters who did
works that were commissioned by wealthy families, depicting biblical
scenes with expert sfumato techniques that helped to create a certain
mood.
This is what I studied at Oxford and I am trying to get a KC
perspective on it. If I can get a clarification, it would also help me
with my college preaching.
Thank you for your time.
Your servant,
Su-gita Vani Devi Dasi
Dear Su-gita Vani,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Please accept my apologies for this late reply. Thank you for your
query of October 7th, an important question that highlights the
general confusion surrounding the varnas. I will answer to the best of
my ability and then post the letter (but not your email address) on
our varnashrama forum to see if others have anything they would like
to add.
There is a common misconception within our ISKCON society that sudras
are dull, stupid and lazy people, ne’r-do-wells with no good
qualities. This likely due to the fact that we are told that sudras
are influenced strongly by the mode of ignorance. It is a fact
however, that the creative arts and performing arts, which are sudra
activities, are populated by intelligent and talented people, some of
exceptional genius. So how are we to reconcile these seemingly
contradictory concepts?
Generally I answer such questions by giving a brief overview of my
understanding of the varna system, and then apply that information to
the question. I will give some general comments and then comment
regarding time, place and circumstance.
The varnas are distinguished from each other by ability,
responsibility, time horizons, and scope of consciousness, each of
these increasing in going from sudra to brahmana. By ability we mean
capacity for dealing with the material energy. By responsibility we
mean the number of people that a person can actually be responsible
for. By scope of consciousness we mean the capacity of the individual
to be aware of, and concerned about the welfare of others.
Persons of a sudra nature generally limit the focus of their
activities. They want to do one thing which they may do extremely
well. But they haven’t the guna and karma to be concerned beyond that.
Using artists as a case in point, they may be genius at their work,
but their work possibly remains unknown because they lack the
initiative and ability of the vaisya to promote it and bring it to the
attention of others. Their consciousness is limited to the artistic
activity itself. And so it is with all of the sudra activities,
whether one is a bricklayer, a seamstress, a cook, or a singer. These
people focus on doing that one thing, generally the task at hand.
They are likely to also be limited in their ability to recognize and/
or care about the needs of others, beyond perhaps their own family.
They are only able to see to their immediate welfare, and haven’t the
ability to solve the problems of others. This is not a criticism. Just
as we cannot criticize a child for his inability, it is unreasonable
to expect more of any adult than they can give. This is simply the
limit of their God-given ability.
There are others who have greater ability in terms of conscious
awareness, organizational capacity, desire to work with groups of
people to accomplish specific tasks, with longer time horizons. The
desire to take on this type of work requires a different
consciousness, which develops due to the greater influence of passion.
Such a person is called a vaisya in the varnashrama culture. Vaisyas
will organize musicians into an orchestra and put on performances.
They will organize cooks and other servers to establish a restaurant.
They will organize carpenters and other tradesmen to build and sell
houses. And they will organize field laborers to produce foodstuffs.
And so on.
To do this organization requires that they see the possibility of a
specific result in the future and organize people to accomplish it.
They may or may not have the same technical ability of the people that
work for them, but they must fully understand the nature of that
activity, and know how to support it. They take responsibility for a
greater number of people, work with a future goal in mind, be able to
overcome problems that arise, and must be cognizant of all of the
necessary elements that will make the endeavor successful. In other
words, their consciousness, influenced more by passion, is able to
accommodate all of the elements to make the endeavor successful. Rajas
means creation, so due to its influence they want to create a result
and/or to create or increase wealth.
Now there are people, endowed with yet greater rajas and less tamas,
who have greater ability and are naturally drawn to organizing people
on an even greater level and seeing to their welfare. These would of
course be the ksatriyas. By their own nature they are drawn to
organization of large numbers of people, working on even greater time
horizons, and taking greater responsibility.
And at the top end of the scale are the brahmanas, who, by dint of
their being situated in the mode of goodness and more free from the
lower gunas, are able to consider the welfare of all persons, even on
an eternal time horizon. They are dealing not only with the present,
or near future, but the future lives, or eternal benefit of liberation
from the material world. Because the modes of passion and ignorance
are not predominant in their consciousness, they lack the motivation
to create and do things on the physical plane within society, and
instead apply their knowledge and understanding to the mental or
spiritual planes, working with concepts, ideas and spirit. Inclined to
teach they may have a school in their ashrama, but they will not
create large institutions. Of course in the modern day, men of a
vaisya nature have organized huge institutions of education called
universities, but these are lacking in true brahminical nature as the
place authority in a position, or seat, rather than in the qualified
individual person. Vedic culture places authority in a qualified
individual, not in an institution.
What Kind of Brahmana is This?
It is very important to note that when we speak of such brahmanas we
are not referring to those who become brahmana by diksa, but by guna
and karma, as described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, 7.11.35: “If one
shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, as
described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he
should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification.”
Devotees are often confused on this point due to the fact that we
learn from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings that any person can become
more than a brahmana by engaging in devotional service. Srila
Prabhupada explains this point in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, 4.31.10,
purport:
It is also stated that in this age of Kali, everyone is sudra due to
the absence of the garbhadhana-samskara. This is the Vedic system.
According to the pancaratrika system [the system followed in our
Gaudiya sampradaya], however, even though everyone is a sudra due to
the absence of the garbhadhana-samskara, if a person has but a little
tendency to become Krishna conscious, he should be given the chance to
elevate himself to the transcendental platform of devotional service.
Our Krishna consciousness movement adopts this pancaratrika-vidhi, as
advised by Srila Sanatana Goswami, who says: “As one can transform
bell metal into gold by treating it with mercury, one can also turn a
lowborn man into a brahmana by initiating him properly into Vaishnava
activities.”
We can understand the distinction between so-called brahmanas and the
devotees from the following verse, Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.10, explained
by Sri Prahlada:
If a brahmana has all twelve of the brahminical qualifications [as
they are stated in the book called Sanat-sujaata] but is not a devotee
and is averse to the lotus feet of the Lord, he is certainly lower
than a devotee who is a dog-eater but who has dedicated everything—
mind, words, activities, wealth and life—to the Supreme Lord. Such a
devotee is better than such a brahmana because the devotee can purify
his whole family, whereas the so-called brahmana in a position of
false prestige cannot purify even himself.
By proper initiation and by following the principles of devotional
service a devotee becomes greater than a brahmana because he has come
to the conclusion of the Vedas—worship of Krishna. That does not mean
that his guna and karma, his material nature, has changed. He may be a
street-sweeper without very great intelligence, and by practice of
sadhana and diksa has become a Vaishnava. He is now qualified to
worship the Lord on the altar, to perform sacrifices, etc. But he has
not somehow magically become an intellectual, or a brahmana by guna
and karma. When we speak of establishing the varnashrama culture we
should understand that brahmanas of both characteristics are needed.
Time, Place and Circumstance
The description of the varnas as given above is very general, and is
even perhaps ideal. Exactly *how* the inclinations of the varnas are
applied will vary according to time, place and circumstance. For
example, now, under the influence of Kali and rampant tamo-guna,
hardly anyone is properly doing their duty. And we see that in the
absence of a qualified ksatriya the ksatriya and vaisyas in charge of
the business enterprises and governments and are using their power and
control to exploit people rather than protect them. We often see that
all sections of society generally try to exploit the others, and Srila
Prabhupada gives the examples of labor and capitalists who attempt to
mutually exploit each other. We should not therefore try to understand
the nature of the varnas simply by observation of the dominant
culture. We should understand the ideal from shastra, and then
recognize how that ideal is perverted by the rampant influence of tamo-
guna in modern society.
Back to Your Question
With this background in mind, let us look at your question again. You
state:
But if an artist has got extraordinary ability ("genius") and if his
artwork is not just technically superb but has also got the capacity
to evoke lofty emotions (sentiments) in the viewer, (and thus uplift
him) - would such work still be considered the product of someone in
sudra varna (predominantly mode of ignorance)?
The answer is yes, the arts are all considered to be in the sudra
category because of the nature of the work. But this is not to say
that such people have no sattva or rajas whatsoever. Certainly they
can and do. But the influence of tamas here is that which limits the
extent to which they can apply their talents and abilities to the
welfare of others, to the time frame in which they typically operate,
and in the responsibility for others that they are generally able to
accept.
I hope that this satisfactorily answers your question. If not, please
feel free to write back.
In Srila Prabhupada's service, I am
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das
Lalita-sakhi MacMillan
Oct 14, 2010, 12:05:09 PM10/14/10
to varnashra...@googlegroups.com
Dear Prabhus,
Obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Thank you for both the question and the answer. I've been thinking a lot about the apparent overlaps in varnas, and wondering specifically about the "kayasthas" that we read about. I'd have to do some research to get the details correct and am sorry that I don't have the time just now, but there would appear to be sudras that act in the capacity of what would seem to be the other varnas, even up to the brahmanas. Dhanesvara prabhu's response begins to explain this seeming incongruity, and I think furthering this understanding will help to bring us closer to determining our own varnas and to realizing the dignity that each posesses.
Your servant,
Lalita-sakhi dasi
niscala dasi
Oct 14, 2010, 3:59:24 PM10/14/10
to Varnashrama Culture
my understanding is that kayasthas are clerks- which is a person
employed to keep records. If that is the case, then certainly sudras
can be educated, an idea which was contested in another thread.
Sudras can be extremely talented and educated. So there is not an
overlapping of varnas in the case of the sudra clerk, at least
according to the analysis given by DP,as well as in the gita...
gita: "service to others" does not necessarily mean digging holes, one
can serve via ones education
DP: responsibility- the scope of concern of the kayastha is related to
his employment, he typically is not concerned with other busiensses or
other employees in the same business, that is the concern of the
vaisya...
time horizons- the focus of the kayastha is to get his duties done in
the time frame given by his boss- presumably by the end of the day.
Typically, he does not think in terms of the time frame of the whole
business venture- the financial goals for the next year or two- that
is the vaisya. Or he does not think in terms of how business activity
will affect other businesses or consumers- that is the focus of the
ksatriya- to ensure the welfare of everyone, by enacting laws and so
on.
Scope of consciousness- typically the consciousness of the clerk is
his "labour"-- in the gita there are no qualities listed for the
sudra, just "labour and service to others" which means that is where
his conciousness is- his work. But for a devotee sudra in a VA
community, this is no disqualification for liberation- for his work is
karma yoga- work which links him to the Lord, and he focuses on doing
his work perfectly for the satisfaction of his devotee employer- "even
the sudra, if he does his work perfectly will get all perfection" SP.
As regards the overlapping of varnas, using DP's analysis, that is
certainly possible- as "scope of consciousness" can change, and should
change, as one evolves spiritually. As it does, naturally, one's
feelings of responsibility change- when one is a pure devotee one
thinks in terms of the welfare of all beings. So its not that one's
varnas overlap, if one is a sudra who is starting to be concerned
about others welfare- it is that one is evolving. I will give an
example which is a real-life testimony of the evolution of "scope of
consciousness" in a modern business. A very ambitious employee was
always trying to get a promotion from his boss by pointing out his
accomplishments at the expense of the other employees, whom he tried
to portray as incompetent. This went on for years, without suceess.
Then the employee became disgusted with himself, and guilt-ridden, and
to make amends, he started pushing and promoting the other employees,
trying to get THEM a promotion, an endeavour which he found immensely
rewarding. In a short time, he was called in to see the boss, who
immediately gave him the promotion, giving as the reason, that he was
showing leadership qualities. As soon as he showed the guna of a
vaisya (arguably a ksatriya) by expanding his consciousness, and
feelings of responsibility, then the opportunity for karma changed.
It may be argued that he was still a sudra, an employee, and indeed he
may have seen himself as such, but it cannot be argued that his
consciousness changed. He may not recognize it- but others do- his
boss, the other employees who have come to trust him as a caring and
concerned person. Similarly, in devotee VA community, a sudra may
develop the qualities of the higher varnas as his consciousness
evolves, but generally he sees himself as a sudra- out of natural
humility. From others points of view, they see and treat him
otherwise. Therefore it is said that it is offensive to view a
vaisnava in terms of his caste or varna- his true qualities are often
far superior. A sudra engaging in devotional service attitude
naturally develops "all the good qualities of the demigods" and to
regard him as a "fourth class man" is certainly offensive. So
adjustments need to be made for devotee association, a meshing of the
instructions about how to act in VA, with the instructions about how
to act towards vaisnavas.
mOn Oct 15, 2:05 am, Lalita-sakhi MacMillan
> ...
>
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employed to keep records. If that is the case, then certainly sudras
can be educated, an idea which was contested in another thread.
Sudras can be extremely talented and educated. So there is not an
overlapping of varnas in the case of the sudra clerk, at least
according to the analysis given by DP,as well as in the gita...
gita: "service to others" does not necessarily mean digging holes, one
can serve via ones education
DP: responsibility- the scope of concern of the kayastha is related to
his employment, he typically is not concerned with other busiensses or
other employees in the same business, that is the concern of the
vaisya...
time horizons- the focus of the kayastha is to get his duties done in
the time frame given by his boss- presumably by the end of the day.
Typically, he does not think in terms of the time frame of the whole
business venture- the financial goals for the next year or two- that
is the vaisya. Or he does not think in terms of how business activity
will affect other businesses or consumers- that is the focus of the
ksatriya- to ensure the welfare of everyone, by enacting laws and so
on.
Scope of consciousness- typically the consciousness of the clerk is
his "labour"-- in the gita there are no qualities listed for the
sudra, just "labour and service to others" which means that is where
his conciousness is- his work. But for a devotee sudra in a VA
community, this is no disqualification for liberation- for his work is
karma yoga- work which links him to the Lord, and he focuses on doing
his work perfectly for the satisfaction of his devotee employer- "even
the sudra, if he does his work perfectly will get all perfection" SP.
As regards the overlapping of varnas, using DP's analysis, that is
certainly possible- as "scope of consciousness" can change, and should
change, as one evolves spiritually. As it does, naturally, one's
feelings of responsibility change- when one is a pure devotee one
thinks in terms of the welfare of all beings. So its not that one's
varnas overlap, if one is a sudra who is starting to be concerned
about others welfare- it is that one is evolving. I will give an
example which is a real-life testimony of the evolution of "scope of
consciousness" in a modern business. A very ambitious employee was
always trying to get a promotion from his boss by pointing out his
accomplishments at the expense of the other employees, whom he tried
to portray as incompetent. This went on for years, without suceess.
Then the employee became disgusted with himself, and guilt-ridden, and
to make amends, he started pushing and promoting the other employees,
trying to get THEM a promotion, an endeavour which he found immensely
rewarding. In a short time, he was called in to see the boss, who
immediately gave him the promotion, giving as the reason, that he was
showing leadership qualities. As soon as he showed the guna of a
vaisya (arguably a ksatriya) by expanding his consciousness, and
feelings of responsibility, then the opportunity for karma changed.
It may be argued that he was still a sudra, an employee, and indeed he
may have seen himself as such, but it cannot be argued that his
consciousness changed. He may not recognize it- but others do- his
boss, the other employees who have come to trust him as a caring and
concerned person. Similarly, in devotee VA community, a sudra may
develop the qualities of the higher varnas as his consciousness
evolves, but generally he sees himself as a sudra- out of natural
humility. From others points of view, they see and treat him
otherwise. Therefore it is said that it is offensive to view a
vaisnava in terms of his caste or varna- his true qualities are often
far superior. A sudra engaging in devotional service attitude
naturally develops "all the good qualities of the demigods" and to
regard him as a "fourth class man" is certainly offensive. So
adjustments need to be made for devotee association, a meshing of the
instructions about how to act in VA, with the instructions about how
to act towards vaisnavas.
mOn Oct 15, 2:05 am, Lalita-sakhi MacMillan
<sakhi.macmil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Prabhus,
>
> Obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> Thank you for both the question and the answer. I've been thinking a lot
> about the apparent overlaps in varnas, and wondering specifically about the
> "kayasthas" that we read about. I'd have to do some research to get the
> details correct and am sorry that I don't have the time just now, but there
> would appear to be sudras that act in the capacity of what would seem to be
> the other varnas, even up to the brahmanas. Dhanesvara prabhu's response
> begins to explain this seeming incongruity, and I think furthering this
> understanding will help to bring us closer to determining our own varnas and
> to realizing the dignity that each posesses.
> Your servant,
> Lalita-sakhi dasi
>
> Dear Prabhus,
>
> Obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> Thank you for both the question and the answer. I've been thinking a lot
> about the apparent overlaps in varnas, and wondering specifically about the
> "kayasthas" that we read about. I'd have to do some research to get the
> details correct and am sorry that I don't have the time just now, but there
> would appear to be sudras that act in the capacity of what would seem to be
> the other varnas, even up to the brahmanas. Dhanesvara prabhu's response
> begins to explain this seeming incongruity, and I think furthering this
> understanding will help to bring us closer to determining our own varnas and
> to realizing the dignity that each posesses.
> Your servant,
> Lalita-sakhi dasi
>
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
Oct 14, 2010, 10:08:00 PM10/14/10
to varnashra...@googlegroups.com
Su-gita Vani Devi Dasi wrote:
> But if an artist has got extraordinary ability ("genius") and if his
> artwork is not just technically superb but has also got the capacity
> to evoke lofty emotions (sentiments) in the viewer, (and thus uplift
> him) - would such work still be considered the product of someone in
> sudra varna (predominantly mode of ignorance)?
Dhanesvara Prabhu replied:
> The answer is yes, the arts are all considered to be in the sudra
> category because of the nature of the work. But this is not to say
> that such people have no sattva or rajas whatsoever. Certainly they
> can and do. But the influence of tamas here is that which limits the
> extent to which they can apply their talents and abilities to the
> welfare of others, to the time frame in which they typically operate,
> and in the responsibility for others that they are generally able to
> accept.
I think there are some other considerations also.
I was once asked to find a vastu expert who could help us evaluate the
Mayapur masterplan and give us advise as to how to best develop it.
In the course of searching for such a person I visited south India. Near
Chennai I discovered a brahmana named Ganapati sthapati who has an institute
to teach sthapana veda. He was describing to me the art of creating a deity
or a building. He was saying that to be able to create a truly harmonious
work one should know rhythm and how to dance.
We know everything in the material world comes from sound: "It is stated
also in the Vedanta-sutra that sound is the origin of all objects of
material possession and that by sound one can also dissolve this material
existence." SB 3.36.32, so the sthapati said that it is very important to be
in harmony with universal rhythm. I thought that was very interesting.
Apparently he teaches his young students about dance and rythm as a prelude
to the study of sthapana veda.
Then I met a Madhava Brahamana at his house in Bangalore. He had written
many books on vastu. What I liked about him was that he approached vastu
from the perspective of a brahmana. Many vastu 'experts' realise that they
can make money by scaring people into thinking that they need to change the
vastu of their living space. He however was simply interested in the art and
presented it in such a way. He also happened to be an artist and some of his
art was hanging in the house.
If we look at Dronacarya, he was a brahmana, but his interest was in
teaching martial art. Bhakti Vidya Purna swami makes the point that when he
was teaching, he was a brahhmana and was treated as such, but when he fought
on the battlefield, he was treated as a Ksatria. That is an example of how a
brahmana can take up any work in an emergency, just as Srila Prabhupada
would cook, serve, and clean up when he was preaching to the first American
people. In the early days of ISKCON he was everything, he did everything.
"Hridayananda: So brahmana can teach how to fight?
Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmaaa means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain
one can learn anything and teach anything."
One consideration is how we think of ourselves. If a person thinks, "I am an
artist", then that identification puts them in the sudra category. But
having ability as an artist does not necesarily restrict one. If one relies
on art to survive (to earn) then it is in the sudra category. But one can be
a detached brahmana and at the same time have artistic ability. It would
seem to be rare, but Dronaracarya is a bold example of a brahmana who
excelled at an art.
Finally on the subject of Kayastha and Sudra, here are some interesting
purports: "In Orissa, however, the kayastha class, which includes the
karanas, is considered in the sudra category. Srila Ramananda Raya belonged
to this karana class; therefore he was considered a sudra. He was also the
governor of South India under the regime of Maharaja Prataparudra of
Orissa." CC Madhya 7.63
"At that time, accompanied by the sounds of music, Ramananda Raya came there
on a palanquin to take his bath...Many brahmanas following the Vedic
principles accompanied Ramananda Raya. According to the Vedic rituals,
Ramananda Raya took his bath and offered oblations to his forefathers."
Madhya 8.15-16
This shows how varna is not necesarily indicative of social status. On
another level many people who we may consider to be sudras in the modern age
are actually less than animals. Sudra is the beginning of human life, it is
an elevated platform.
Prabhupada said in a Bhagavad Gita Lecture in Bombay: "Vedic civilization
means four varnas and four asramas. Brahmana, kssatriya Vaisya sudra. We
have begin. We have began our lecture on the basis, catur-varnyam maya
srstam guna-karma-vibhagasaha [Bg. 4.13]. So this is civilization. Unless
one comes to this standard of civilization, varnassrama-dharma, that is
animal civilization."
Your servant
Samba das
Dhanesvara Das
Oct 17, 2010, 9:45:58 AM10/17/10
to Varnashrama Culture
In private email I received the following comment to this thread:
*"Does it really matter what mode anyone is in?"*
If the Shudras are all in the mode of ignorance, does that change what
they
do? *NO*
If the Kshatriyas are all in the mode of passion, does that change
what they
do? *NO*
Who cares?* I Don't! *why does it matter?* IT DOESN'T!*
Even if there are 500 years of philosophical discussion and debate,
will
that change what the Shudra's are doing? *NO*
What matters is what people *DO! PERIOD!*
The point I am trying to make is this; ever expanding discussion of
non-essentials will never result in performance of essentials.
In this case, what mode a person is in is NON-ESSENTIAL. What a person
does
is ESSENTIAL!
My reply:
The point being missed here is that how people interact is a matter of
culture. Their *doing* is an expression of culture. We want to know:
how is what/how people do in modern culture different from what/how
they do in a varnashrama culture? There should be significant
differences. In terms of the economic relationships there certainly
are. This needs to be defined so that everyone can understand the
culture and behave accordingly. This is why the discussion and
establishment of varnashrama culture are so important. Otherwise we
just continue acting the way we already act, and THAT is certainly not
vedic culture, and it does not necessarily support spiritual growth.
Dhanesvara Das
> ...
>
> read more »
*"Does it really matter what mode anyone is in?"*
If the Shudras are all in the mode of ignorance, does that change what
they
do? *NO*
If the Kshatriyas are all in the mode of passion, does that change
what they
do? *NO*
Who cares?* I Don't! *why does it matter?* IT DOESN'T!*
Even if there are 500 years of philosophical discussion and debate,
will
that change what the Shudra's are doing? *NO*
What matters is what people *DO! PERIOD!*
The point I am trying to make is this; ever expanding discussion of
non-essentials will never result in performance of essentials.
In this case, what mode a person is in is NON-ESSENTIAL. What a person
does
is ESSENTIAL!
My reply:
The point being missed here is that how people interact is a matter of
culture. Their *doing* is an expression of culture. We want to know:
how is what/how people do in modern culture different from what/how
they do in a varnashrama culture? There should be significant
differences. In terms of the economic relationships there certainly
are. This needs to be defined so that everyone can understand the
culture and behave accordingly. This is why the discussion and
establishment of varnashrama culture are so important. Otherwise we
just continue acting the way we already act, and THAT is certainly not
vedic culture, and it does not necessarily support spiritual growth.
Dhanesvara Das
>
> read more »
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