Discussion about Hungarian Farm with HH Sivarama Swami
Greg Jay
Some have been asking me to read some of Dhanesvara's writings before continuing to comment on this conference.
I am slowly getting to these things but will continue to comment on people's posting according to the best of my knowledge and experience and I look forward to learning from all of you.
Having said that I just finished reading the discussion from 2008 with HH Sivarama Swami about the Hungarian farm project.
I have to say that he and the Hungarian devotees have done something very interesting and serious.
It seems to me to be a very nice example of self sufficiency.
It is an excellent example of a self sufficient spiritual community.
However it is based on Communism not Varnashram.
Since everyone is equal and there are no real Varnas it can't be accepted as a model of Varnashram.
GKD
Dhanesvara Das
varnashrama culture at this point in time. Nor do I know if they have
any plans for that. I invited several of their English speaking
members to this forum, but they have not joined as yet. They are doing
LOTS of preaching from here, having over 30,000 guests each year, and
giving them straight-on Krishna consciousness when they visit. Their
website is: http://www.harekrishnavalley.com.au/. Radha Krishna Das
also set up another organization and he is speaking at hi-level
events, such as the Copenhagen Eco Summit last year. It think they
focus on offering a lifestyle that is comparable to other modern
Europeans that is totally sustainable. It is not completely "simple
living" as SP suggested, but to some degree it is. They use no
electricity except in certain buildings, no washing machines, grow 80%
of their food; but they use tractors as well as oxen, cars, etc. It is
a hybrid that I think you would like and which can have wide appeal to
non-devotees.
Dd
atmavan dasa
the one you linked to is the australian farm.
i just visited NVD for a week and it is very impresive. if i understood
correctly they do aim for varnashram and simple living but use modern tech
as a transition period. and it is all in proper yukta vairagya.
i don't think they would agree it is based on communism, but have perhaps
difficulty defining their present set up. i asked radha krsna prabhu but he
couldn't really answer then. they are definately serious about aiming for
srila prabhupadas vision.
ys atmavan dasa
niscala dasi
own nothing, it all belongs to the Lord", rather than "I own nothing,
it all belongs to the State". Actually, this is the essence of VA-
pleasing the Lord by using everything, our talents, our qualities etc,
in His service and the service of His dear devotees, rather than
owning them and accumulating burdens of false ego... The proper
consciousness is that I do not even own a family- they are all
servants of the Lord. So long as the communism is like that, it is
actually varnashrama.
One may argue that no- communism is about equality, varnashrama is
about differences, but actually it is not so black-and-white. Within
those differences, there is equality of being, every soul being
recognized as a divine part and parcel of the Lord. On the other hand,
materialistic communism denies differences pertaining to the body, by
stressing equality without a concept of soul or God. And so does
modern capitalism, actually, in its stress on equality... the result
of such denying of differences, as nicely explained in "The Revolt of
the Elites" is the degradation of responsibility for others, and the
concomitant exaggerated suffering and deprivation.
Were we only stress equality in all respect, denying the fact that
some are needy- the sick, poor, and disabled- then we are led down the
road of callousness and self-absorption, with the idea that if they
are equal they should be able to fend for themselves as I am doing.
Were we only to stress differences, however, our charity would be
tainted with superiority, and thus appear patronizing and degrading to
the receiver (a common fault in welfare situations). But when we
recognize our Lord in the heart of the receiver, and know that He can
only be served this way- through His devotees, then we offer great
respect when offering charity, recognizing that it is only the
external dress that is inferior to our own, and that it is we who are
being given mercy to serve a needy devotee in this way. That is real
equality, without denial of facts, and the result is mutual obligation
to each other, without feeling superior or inferior in any way, thus
uplifting all members of the community...
If the Hungarian farm is actually like that, it has at least the basis
and consciousness of varnashrama, from which the externals- the
various duties between varnas- will evolve in healthy fashion.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Greg Jay
Thanks very much for the link. I did not see anything about Varnashram on that website either. The stress by these Australian devotees seems more on Vegetarianism with Krsna Consciousness added rather than Varnashram. Of course Varnashram is not necessarily about Vegetarianism at all. In most cases of course when you add Vaisnavism to Varnashram people will tend to be Vegetarians. However I know of one case at least in India where the Tribals of Ahobilam, though worshipers of Narasimha and thus Vaisnavas, do eat meat. Not that I am suggesting that meat eating is to be encouraged but in a true Varnashram society there might be allowance for low class persons to regulate their sinful habits in the ways in which they are allowed to do so in the Vedas. Prabhupada has spoken of the correct way according to sastra of sacrificing a goat and the resultant karma of the less intelligent low class person who does that ritual. Similarly Ksatriyas (higher class individuals) were allowed to eat meat (and drink wine) under certain circumstances and there are many Vaisnava communities in India even today that have long histories of meat and fish eating. Bengalis are famous for fish eating and worship of the Goddess Durga with bloody animal sacrifices. And yet this is also the birthplace of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. There are certainly Gaudiya Vaisnavas who eat meat and/or fish. One only has to visit Jagannatha Puri or any river or seaside village or town in Bengal or Orissa to know this. We should also remember that even exalted personalities like Garuda, the Lord's carrier are non-Vegetarian. I really do not think it necessary to make allowance for meat eating in Varnashram models (until perhaps they involve thousands or even millions of people). Still we have to remember that Varnashram is about making slow social advancement by having a place for all types of people and allowing them to regulate (not immediately stop) their sinful behaviors. For your information in Srirangam in the Brahmin neighborhood just surrounding the temple where I live no meat, fish or alcohol can be sold or consumed. However just outside of that area there are markets where these things are available. Similarly many Indian holy places are designated as "no meat, no alcohol" zones. Examples would be Vrndavan, Haridwar, Hrisikesh, etc. However even in those places I have seen or heard of meat eating and certainly consumption of liquor. I once hired a taxi to go up the Tirumala hills in Andhra Pradesh to visit the famous Venkatesvara temple there. The only way up to the top of the mountains where the shrine is located is by a ghat (steep mountainous) road. The whole place is controlled by the Tirupati Tirumala Devastanams organization that manages many temples in the region and the land all belongs to the temple. At the beginning of the road cars are stopped and searched (usually because of Naxalite terrorist threats). Most Indian taxi drivers have a bottle of liquor they keep under their drivers seat and the temple security men all know this. So they confiscate the liquor as at Tirumala there is a ban on liquor around the shrine on top of the hill. However in the town Tirupati proper at the base of the hill, although there are also many nice temples, non-Veg restaurant and even liquor shops are common.
GKD
Malya Butenas
| Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances! All glories to Srila Prabhupada! The link was wrong, here´s the right one: http://ecovalley.hu/ Not that I find anything on VD there either, but it´s the right place at least. Your servant Malyahari-kunda dasi --- Den lör 2010-10-09 skrev Greg Jay <jay....@gmail.com>: |
niscala dasi
eating could do it non-violently, by waiting until the animal dies a
natural death- then even a cow could be eaten. He suggested we could
do it on our farms, offer the butchers in the area to come for the
carvass of the cow, naturally departed- I doubt the local health
authorities would allow it, as the carcass must be immediately frozen
after death, but maybe if done immediately and locally, cutting and
cooking on the spot, so to speak, it would pose no health risk-
anyway, it is a way to allow for sinful addictions in a way that does
not degrade or entangle the addicted person. Not for vaisnavas of
course, as it cannot be Krsna prasadam :) anyway, gulabs and halavah
make it hard for anyone to go back to meat-eating!
On Oct 10, 3:45 am, Malya Butenas <malya...@yahoo.se> wrote:
> Hare Krishna!
>
> Please accept my humble obeisances!
> All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> The link was wrong, here´s the right one:
>
> http://ecovalley.hu/
>
> Not that I find anything on VD there either, but it´s the right place at least.
>
> Your servant Malyahari-kunda dasi
>
Greg Jay
Thanks for the link.
This is what they do write there about Varnashram:
QUOTE
Those who would like to find a solution to the spiritual and material problems of modern society may have a look with interest to the model we follow, as we also call it to be daiva-varnasrama-dharma.
END QUOTE
They actually think what they are doing is Daiva Varnashram dharma it appears.
GKD
Caitanya
farm to conclude it is based on the model of spiritual Communism. It
is far from it. The reality is rather alarming, despite all preaching
that is going on. Congregational devotees (who are supposed to be the
real substance and reason for VA development) are not only
marginalised, but de-facto excommunicated. How can that be a model of
anything to do with Communism. Maybe some sort of brown shirt version
of Communism?
On Oct 9, 9:53 pm, Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> PAMHO AGTSP
>
> Thanks for the link.
>
> This is what they do write there about Varnashram:
>
> QUOTE
>
> Those who would like to find a solution to the spiritual and material problems of modern society may have a look with interest to the model we follow, as we also call it to be daiva-varnasrama-dharma.
>
> END QUOTE
>
> They actually think what they are doing is Daiva Varnashram dharma it appears.
>
> GKD
>
> On Oct 9, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Malya Butenas wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hare Krishna!
>
> > Please accept my humble obeisances!
> > All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
>
> > The link was wrong, here´s the right one:
>
> >http://ecovalley.hu/
>
> > Not that I find anything on VD there either, but it´s the right place at least.
>
> > Your servant Malyahari-kunda dasi
>
>
> > Från: Greg Jay <jay.g...@gmail.com>
niscala dasi
how it is a money-less economy. They also speak about the warm and
loving welcome to guests. But if congregational members are treated as
outcasts, then one wonders if the warmth and love is more about
business profit than people? Thats just a question- I haven't
personally been to the farm, but there seems to be some contradiction-
according to the testimony of Chaitanya, and then looking at the
website...
And if it is money-based to any degree, then a percentage should be
put aside for medical emergencies for devotees who have no
savings...not that it is spent on big festivals to attract people, and
then when devotees get sick they have to go on CHAKRA and beg for
donations.