The Gift Economy of Devotional Service
Dhanesvara Das
This was written in 1992, and is but an introduction, or a summary of
the concepts. The detailed explanation will be given in Volume 2 of
"Spiritual Economics" which I hope to finish over the coming winter
months.
Spiritual Economics - The Gift Economy Based on the Bhagavad-gita and
Devotional Service
by Dhanesvara Das
Preface
Because of the nature of wealth and what it represents to people, and
perhaps because of the confusion surrounding the subject, economics is
a subject matter which very few people address either fully or
directly, or attempt to understand beyond their own checkbook. In that
regard those who are devotees of Lord Krishna are not much different
from the population in general. Some relate well to and have the
ability to acquire money in large or at least sufficient sums, others
get by, and others struggle with it throughout their lives. For many
devotees of Krishna attempting to live a pure life there is a
dichotomy surrounding money as well. While they may prefer to engage
in devotional service, in these times that won't pay the rent. Thus
they are pulled in two seemingly irreconcilable directions. For those
with family responsibilities the rent generally prevails, causing the
man or woman to associate with people he would rather not be with,
doing things he or she would rather not do. This is one problem which
stems from our lack of understanding Spiritual Economics.
There are of course thousands of books with advice on the subject of
money and economics and everyone has their own angle on how to get
ahead of the game. Money is the focus for most people's lives because
it represents the ability to satisfy one's desires. Although the title
contains the word "economics" this paper is not about money, or how to
raise money either directly or through others. Spiritual Economics
instead refers to an economic system based upon the Bhagavad-gita and
as such offers an economic system for a society established in
transcendence.
It is certainly not for everyone. But it certainly will have its time
and will be practiced by those who are the living examples of the
Bhagavad-gita. It is for those persons who have achieved the full
understanding that Lord Krishna is the Supreme Proprietor or owner of
everything, that He is the Supreme Enjoyer of everything, that He is
our most dear friend, and that the satisfaction we seek can come only
from serving Him without motivation or interruption.
In the Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna speaks more than thirty verses about
economics. How many you may have recognized as such is more a matter
of consciousness about economics than anything else, but they are
nonetheless applicable to our economic activity—if we are to take the
Lord's statements to be explicit in their meaning. Generally if some
idea is repeated three times we understand that we should take it as
very important. How important then can this message of the Lord be
when he says that same thing more than thirty times? The emphasis
behooves us to understand it.
It is important to understand that Spiritual Economics refers to more
than an economic system, it is a state of consciousness. That state of
consciousness is the consciousness of an individual who is living the
full tenants of the Bhagavad-gita, and the individual's practice of
Spiritual Economics is the visible hallmark of such.
Material economics promotes a consciousness of “lack” and the need to
get. Spiritual Economics promotes a consciousness of completeness (om
purnam idam purnam idam) and the joy of giving. Spiritual Economics
also delineates the basis of Varnashrama Dharma, and establishes the
place of genuinely brahminical men in society.
Part I - The Principles of Spiritual Economics
In speaking about Spiritual Economics my purpose is to distinguish it
in character and application from traditional or material economics.
Spiritual Economics is understood in light of spiritual knowledge,
particularly the definitions and understandings of spiritual knowledge
as found in Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition of India, and based
principally upon the Bhagavad-gita As It Is and the Srimad Bhagavatam
translated by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
Spiritual and material economics are to be distinguished by the same
differences which characterize the qualities of matter and spirit. To
wit: the spiritual element is personal, eternal, fully cognizant and
blissful, complete in every respect without lack of any kind, and is
eternally connected with the Supreme Fountainhead of all that be. The
material element is impersonal, temporary, existing in a state of
ignorance and is without happiness or bliss. It is perceived to be
incomplete in itself, due to it's being separated from the Efficient
or Supreme Cause.
All living beings are spiritual in nature and are complete with all
spiritual qualities. However, when they are born into the material
realm and identify with the material coverings of the material body
and mind, that very identification causes them to assume the qualities
of the material energy as described above. The material economic
system presently used is so arranged as to aid those in material
conscious¬ness in their development of the material conception of
life.
Economics deals primarily with the production and distribution of
goods and services which are required or desired by people in their
daily course, and those who are under the spell of material
consciousness participate in and act according to the machinations of
material economics. In its extreme the grossly materialistic
conscious¬ness is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: (16.11-15)
"They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the
prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their
anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and
anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification. The
demoniac person thinks: 'So much wealth do I have today, and I will
gain more and more according to my schemes. So much is mine now, and
it will increase in the future, more and more. He is my enemy and I
have killed him, and my other enemy will also be killed. I am the lord
of everything, I am the enjoyer, I am perfect, powerful and happy. I
am the richest man, surrounded by aristocratic relatives. There is
none so powerful and happy as I am. I shall perform sacrifices, I
shall give some charity, and thus I shall rejoice.' In this way, such
persons are deluded by ignorance."
However, when one gets the opportunity to understand his true
spiritual nature, and begins to act according the principles of
devotional service, he is then acting within the realm of Spiritual
Economics. The newfound difference in how a person then lives their
life has vast implications as we shall later see. It is important to
demonstrate the contrast between material economics and Spiritual
Economics, so I will begin with a brief description of material
economics as understood through the Srimad Bhagavatam.
Continue the article by following this link:
http://spiritual-econ.blogspot.com/2009/07/introduction-to-principles-of-spiritual.html
Greg Jay
catur-vidhä bhajante mäà
janäù sukåtino 'rjuna
ärto jijïäsur arthärthé
jïäné ca bharatarñabha
SYNONYMS
catuù-vidhäù—four kinds of; bhajante—render services; mäm—unto Me; janäù—persons; su-kåtinaù—those who are pious; arjuna—O Arjuna; ärtaù—the distressed; jijïäsuù—the inquisitive; artha-arthé—one who desires material gain; jïäné—one who knows things as they are; ca—also; bharata-åñabha—O great one amongst the descendants of Bharata.
TRANSLATION
O best among the Bhäratas, four kinds of pious men begin to render devotional service unto Me—the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.
na mäà duñkåtino müòhäù
prapadyante narädhamäù
mäyayäpahåta-jïänä
äsuraà bhävam äçritäù
SYNONYMS
na—not; mäm—unto Me; duñkåtinaù—miscreants; müòhäù—foolish; prapadyante—surrender; nara-adhamäù—lowest among mankind; mäyayä—by the illusory energy; apahåta—stolen; jïänäù—whose knowledge; äsuram—demonic; bhävam—nature; äçritäù—accepting.
TRANSLATION
Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, who are lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me.
DRousse
Due to brahminical tendencies I write books; due to ksatriya tendencies I am
active in establishing communities; and due to sudra tendencies I like to
garden.
Sign me up for all three GK Prabhu :-)
Dhanesvara Das
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Prabhupad Das
Karapurnam
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 4:50 PM
To: Varnashrama Culture
Subject: Re: Asura and Daivi Varnashram in Bhagavad Gita
Greetings,
Shriman Gaurakeshava das Prabhu wrote:
"Next is the Inquisitive man who is the DEVOTEE Ksatriya. He is
inquisitive and therefore knows the sastras superficially because his
goal is the establishment of righteousness or Dharma. He is
preoccupied with truth, justice and managing society in a way that is
fair to all the praja or residents. Assuring that they all have a
right to pursue their mixed goals of devotional service and
occupational goals. He is also a mixed (and not pure) devotee. He
worships the Lord and the Lord fulfills his main desire to enforce
justice and righteousness. The last is the Jnani, the seeker of
knowledge of the Absolute, he is the DEVOTEE Brahmin and he is also a
mixed and not pure devotee. He approaches the Lord to serve Him and
get his main goal of moksha or liberation granted by his pursuit of
knowledge (jnanat mokshah - from knowledge liberation)."
From my perspective, herein is the crux of the dilemma in setting up
actual, real, functioning Daivi Varnashram Villages. The devotees fall
into the four categories mentioned, ie., shudra, vaishya, kshatriya,
brahman. The shudras and vaishyas, are not inclined to build
community. Why should they, it is already built, all around them, and,
to get what they need, they just need to become a wage or profit slave
in the existing system. The Brahmans are not all that inclined to
build community because, with a paying congregation, they can live in
the Urban Temple, read books, do deity worship, seek knowledge and
discuss it without end.
The lack of Daivi Varnashram Community is due to the absence or
inaction of the Kshatriya, or lack of interest in carrying an idea
into physical manifestation.
Take a look at the contributions so far in this Group. There are 38
members and only a few have anything to say. Those that are saying
tend to be involved in discussing the philosophy that composes the
various forms of Varnashram, with seemingly no intention of actually
applying it.. The posts I am making are directly aimed at Kshatriya
action. I have put up three threads, ie., Daivi Varnashram Parampara,
Urban Monastery and Rural Village. Please note how much interest that
has generated. Then note how much interest is going on in a heading
such as Social Theorizing vs Practical or Varnashram not Farmashram.
etc. Definitely this is a "discussion group" and not an "applied
action group".
My contention is that Daivi Varnashram Village Development will not
happen among the devotees until the Kshatrya Varna is more fully
developed. When that happens, with the rod of chastisement in hand, a
Kshatriya leader can put pressure on the other three Varna's to "get
in line". From the above astute analysis of Gaura Keshava we see that
Brahmans are thinkers, contemplaters, discussers, not leaders and
activists, and, as such, no amount of thinking and discussion among
Brahmans is going to translate into effective leadership and
constructive action. As mentioned, the Kshatriya has a smaller
interest in scripture. So, the Brahman and Kshatriya need to work in
partnership, the Brahman with shastric depth, with the Kshatriya doing
the leadership to motivate the Vaishya and Shudra to lift the bricks
and maintain the structure.
PDK
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21:34:00
Greg Jay
I agree with you 100%. Brahmins are not hands on managers. They don't want to be.
Ksatriyas and Vaishyas are hands on entrepreneurs.
Yes, a practical plan is that a Ksatriya buys some land and then leases the land to Vaishyas who then employ sudras (paying them in cash if necessary despite Dhanesvaras disapproval LOL).
Thus the Ksatriya retains control of the land as owner, he has a sharecropping contract with terms and conditions and a renewability clause with the Vaishya or Vaishyas and they in turn employ sudras to work and assist them farming the land. In building a small village community the KING (the owner of the land) must pay the property taxes to the government and also provide services like water, trash, sewage, yes even electricity and infrastructure. In order to supply these things he receives taxes from the Vaishyas. He should also build a place of worship and employ a brahmin family to conduct worship, perform samskaras for the community and teach the children. He can then begin to find people to fill other roles as they are needed. He (the ksatriya) owns the land and in this way he retains ultimate control of the community. Of course if he is successful people may want to take advantage of his community and move close by. Whether he wants to accumulate more and more land himself or allow for brahmins and vaishyas to buy and own the surrounding property is up to him. Here is something I wrote many decades ago on the subject of clear simple duties for different classes.
ACCEPTABLE RIGHTS AND DUTIES FOR EACH CASTE
TO BE A MEMBER OF A VARNASRAMA COMMUNITY.
SUDRAS:
1. MUST FOLLOW THE LAWS OF THE COUNTRY (USA, etc).
2. MUST BE PAYED MINIMUM WAGE (AT LEAST).
3. MUST PAY TAX TO THE LOCAL PRESIDENT (KING) 25% OF NET.
4. MUST BE VEGETARIAN (UNLESS FOLLOWING KALI SACRIFICE).
5. MUST VISIT THE TEMPLE AND PERFORM OTHER VAISNAVA ACTIVITIES ACCORDING TO HIS ABILITY.
6. MUST SEEK OUT AND FOLLOW THE ADVISE OF HIGHER CASTES.
7. MUST GIVE IN CHARITY TO BRAHMANAS.
VAISYAS:
1. ALL OF THE ABOVE.
2. MUST CHANT GAYATRI
3. MUST PERFORM SAMSKARAS
4. MUST WORSHIP IN THE HOME
KSATRIYAS:
1. ALL OF THE ABOVE.
2. MAY ALSO EAT MEAT IF HE HAS HUNTED AND KILLED IT HIMSELF.
3. MAY DRINK AT CERTAIN SACRIFICES.
4. MAY GAMBLE.
5. MUST PAY FOR AND EXECUTE ALL SOCIAL SERVICES, ie. GURUKULA, GARBAGE COLLECTION, etc.
7. MUST MANAGE THE TEMPLE.
8. MUST PROTECT PRAJA
.PA
BRAHMANAS:
1. ALL OF THE ABOVE (EXCEPT FOR 2-8 OF KSATRIYA).
2. MUST STUDY (ESPECIALLY THE SCRIPTURES).
3. MUST PERFORM ALL TEACHING DUTIES (EXCEPT ARTS, CRAFTS AND TRADES).
4. MUST PERFORM TEMPLE WORSHIP.
5. MUST PERFORM ALL PRIESTLY DUTIES (SAMSKARAS,etc FOR OTHERS CASTES).
On Oct 10, 2010, at 3:50 AM, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Shriman Gaurakeshava das Prabhu wrote:
>
> "Next is the Inquisitive man who is the DEVOTEE Ksatriya. He is
> inquisitive and therefore knows the sastras superficially because his
> goal is the establishment of righteousness or Dharma. He is
> preoccupied with truth, justice and managing society in a way that is
> fair to all the praja or residents. Assuring that they all have a
> right to pursue their mixed goals of devotional service and
> occupational goals. He is also a mixed (and not pure) devotee. He
> worships the Lord and the Lord fulfills his main desire to enforce
> justice and righteousness. The last is the Jnani, the seeker of
> knowledge of the Absolute, he is the DEVOTEE Brahmin and he is also a
> mixed and not pure devotee. He approaches the Lord to serve Him and
> get his main goal of moksha or liberation granted by his pursuit of
> knowledge (jnanat mokshah - from knowledge liberation)."
>
niscala dasi
outcast. But it still can work if there is one, more than the others.
And we see this practically in daily life. Just say I am a landscape
gardener, but my friend's son has died- I am likely to counsel her
with spiritual instructions. Or I am in a community where an elderly
lady threw herself in flames so as not to be a burden- outraged I
write, speak and blog on the topic that we need to develop the mood of
vaisnavas, valuing, loving and serving each other as we value, love
and serve the Lord. We should jump at the chance to serve any needy
devotee, not just because it softens the heart, but because that's how
Krsna accepts service- not directly, but through His devotees! If
everyone is jumping at the chance to serve me in my hour of need, how
could I ever feel myslef a burden? It is impossible!
So, coming back to the point, because I circumstantially write and
preach on vasinavism, does not change my varna. Ask me what I am? A
landscape gardener! So varna is what one likes to do most, and what
one is suited for most. If I think "oh, now I can write on these
topics, let me change my varna to brahmana" then it will only serve my
false ego. On the other hand, if all one thinks and lives for is
preaching, writing, and opening minds, then announcing oneself as a
brahmana will give one the facility to do that more and more- it will
open up opportunities.
It is like this- we dress as vaisnavas- because then opportunities for
preaching open up. It does not mean we are qualified vaisnavas- and if
we think that by dressing as such, we are qualified- we are in
illusion! So, to open up service opportunities only, a superior varna
may be announced to the world- otherwise a devotee's tendency is to
see himself in the lowest position. Similarly, a teacher may garden,
but ask him what he is, and he will say a teacher. It is what one has
committed to (karma) and has the qualities for (guna) that determine
it. We have to rememvber also, that there is no higher and lower in
vaisnava society, as they cultivate equal vision- all are equally
important "It is not that my leg is less important than my head"
If a gardener covets the position of a brahmana because of pride or
desire for honour, he will cause a disturbance to himself and others
as he will try to replace those who are more learned and qualified.
This like me walking into a classroom and announcing myself the
teacher. Yet circumstantially I teach all the time- my kids, my
friends, my e-contacts and so on. Similarly, if a ksatriya covets the
position of a brahmana because his own duty to enact justice is too
painful, he will also cause trouble, as people will be unprotected (re
Bg) But if Arjuna was asked "what did Krsna teach you back then?" he
certainly would have passed on the teachings! Generally, one's duties
must be stuck to, not ever given up whimsically, but only if necessity
requires it- in service to the vaisnavas, for devotional service:
"rules should not be given up whimsically, but not followed for the
sake of following only"
I hope that GKP now understands that I am not recommending changing
varnas whimsically. If he still does so, I give up! I have no power to
change his thinking! :)
>
> - Show quoted text -
niscala dasi
That we are theorizing rather than taking practical action, speaking
for myself, is circumstantial. To set up a VA community, first thing
required is people- devotees committed to the idea. Therefore, I wrote
a whole book explaining the advantages that VA would give ISKCON as a
preaching mission, spiritually, ecologically, psychologically, and
materially, as well as benefitting its members in these four ways. The
whole book was written to show the enormous benefits, to attract
people to the idea- and the third part to it was how to resolve the
practical difficulties that arose under the old farming model- so my
theorizing was only about practical action. Practically speaking, my
hands are tied at present. We need to sell up and get out of here, but
our house is in very bad condition, so we are spending all our spare
time renovating it- not to enjoy it but to sell it and move on,
hopefully there will be somewhere we can move on to, a positive
alternative community. So I am no armchair philosopher! Even here, I
try to grow everything I need to eat...and not depend on
supermarkets...but VA really needs a community, the larger the better -
and more self-sufficient -it will be
On Oct 10, 11:50 pm, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam
> inquisitive and therefore knows the sastras superficially because his
> goal is the establishment of righteousness or Dharma. He is
> preoccupied with truth, justice and managing society in a way that is
> fair to all the praja or residents. Assuring that they all have a
> right to pursue their mixed goals of devotional service and
> occupational goals. He is also a mixed (and not pure) devotee. He
> worships the Lord and the Lord fulfills his main desire to enforce
> justice and righteousness. The last is the Jnani, the seeker of
> knowledge of the Absolute, he is the DEVOTEE Brahmin and he is also a
> mixed and not pure devotee. He approaches the Lord to serve Him and
> get his main goal of moksha or liberation granted by his pursuit of
> knowledge (jnanat mokshah - from knowledge liberation)."
>
Greg Jay
Has anyone got any sastra quote that states that someone can be of more than one Varna during one's life or even from minute to minute?
If not, stop speculating about being partially this and partially that. I am telling you it is not possible.
It is possible for a person to do different duties but his best and highest duty is to do the duty of his ONE Varna.
And that one Varna is his highest attainable and maintainable one. Anyone can pretend to be a brahmin or sannyasi for a few months but only real brahmin or sannyasi can maintain that.
Anyone can pretend to be a Vaishya or Ksatriya for a while but only the real thing can and does maintain those positions. All the rest who can't maintain those leadership responsibilities are workers even if they are very intelligent or sometimes try to do the jobs of the dvijas.
Remember that it is important to choose one Varna and the highest one you can attain and maintain because more qualified Varnas are able in emergencies to do the jobs of the less qualified ones (though Brahmins and Ksatriyas are not supposed to take on the duty of Sudras). But complete chaos occurs when less qualified persons take on more qualified roles as we have seen when non-brahminical persons take sannyasa, or then non-administrative people try management, diplomacy and enforcing justice and fairness, even when non-business people try to run businesses. All these things cause chaos.
In History we have examples like Narahari Tirtha (in our guru parampara) who was acting ruler of Orissa for some time, so that is an example of a Brahmin who did the job of Ksatriya till the young prince grew up and took back his dead father's throne.
And do not give me answers like RAJARISHI. Prabhupada das for your information a Rajarishi is a brahmin ONLY.
There are different levels of Rishis from Rishi, Maharishi, Rajarishi, Brahmarishi.
They are all nothing but Brahmins.
If you can't self analyze, understand and commit to a single Varna (no matter what you actually do), then it seems likely that you are not a Brahmin.
But certainly if you are a leader rather than a follower you must be one of the three Dvija Varnas.
I suggest that your ability to self analyze and commit to ONE Varna is actually the first key practical skill you must as a leader have if you want to establish VA.
If you can't even self analyze and commit to ONE Varna then how will you be able to advise or manage others and help them with their concepts of their own Varnas?
The answer is that you can't. And if you cannot understand others Varnas then you will not be able to establish Varnashram.
Varnashram begins at home. Self analyze and learn according the the descriptions of sastra where you fit into the VA system EXACTLY. Then and only then can you help others adopt this system.
If you really cannot self analyze and commit to your highest attainable and maintainable Varna then pick the least qualified or lowest Varna that you think you could possibly accept.
If you are a leader that means Vaishya. If you are not a leader of course that means sudra. However sudras are pretty easy to identify because they are followers and employees of others.
A major skill that any leader needs is to be able to evaluate others so he can properly engage them. This begins with analyzing their Varna or highest maintainable potential.
GKD
Greg Jay
Some good ideas.
However I would submit that the first practical thing apart from knowing the theory (which starts with Varna analysis and acceptance) is not getting people.
People are out there, plenty of them.
The first practical step in establishing a VA community is owning land (at least if you want to make a Village or Rural community, and Urban VA community simply needs a focus property like a temple, community center or school).
So a leader will have the money or ability to obtain a property and then the next step is people.
But the leader (King) needs to gather people with certain skill sets.
So he has to identify those skill sets and make a list of initial residents that he needs according to the work that needs to be done.
So he will need at least one family of each Varna to consider his project to be truly a VA project.
He must start with at least one Brahmin family who can do the teaching of the children, the deity worship in the community shrine, and the samskaras for the residents.
He needs at least one Ksatriya and his family who is the top manager of the place. (Ideally this is the owner of the land).
He needs at least one or more Vaishya families who can develop businesses (farm).
He needs Sudra Workers to assist all the dvijas especially the Vaishya(s).
If he is the owner but is not a Ksatriya then he can take up some other role.
But normally he will be the owner and thus the King.
Then the next step after interviewing all the initial resident and analyzing their qualifications for their duties he should make contracts with them all.
These should be in writing and legally enforceable.
The King (ksatriya) will be given tax tribute of so much percentage of the profit of the Vaishyas, he will provide for certain common facilities in return.
The Vaishyas will look after any sudra workers either in cash or kind that he employs. And the king and brahmin any that they employ.
The other dvijas Ksatriyas and Vaishyas will give a certain percentage in charity to the Brahmin who provides advice, teaching and priestly services in return.
Everyone should know what is expected of them and what rights and privileges they have. I agree with Sivarama's idea that it all should be in writing before any commitment occurs.
This is all very practical.
Now if anyone wants to go into more practical details say about contracts, etc. I think that is going to depend on some more theoretical discussion.
GKD
DRousse
sent that message for a little fun, thinking it would get a rise out of you,
but actually, I agree with you. While we might identify various tendencies
within ourselves that indicate diverse varnas, for social order we need to
pick one and work with that.
Ok? :-|
Dd
PAMHO AGTSP
GKD
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09:34:00
niscala dasi
(at least if you want to make a Village or Rural community, and Urban
VA community simply needs a focus property like a temple, community
center or school).
>
> So a leader will have the money or ability to obtain a property and then the next step is people.
attracted? Therefore, read my book, it is about all the advantages of
VA in the present situation- in the greater society (part A) and in
the ISKCON society (part B)... whatever peoples concerns, and I list
many, VA can provide a solution IF properly implemented- with the
right consciousness- if it is the caste system, it will give no
benefit, so part of the book, is about sharply contrasting the two
systems...also VA and modernity...
So a leader will have the money or ability to obtain a property and
then the next step is people.
>
> But the leader (King) needs to gather people with certain skill sets
disadvantages- no electricity, no transport, etc etc. Unless the
advantages SUBSTANTIALLY outweigh the perceived disadvantages, then
there will be no one moving on to the ksatriyas land, what to speak of
getting those with the right skill set. "Revolt of the Elites" also
goes a long way to show the advantages of the ancient paperless (and
plastic-less) economy. People are not so mesmerized with the modern
culture as you may think- many are disenchanted- due to the GFC- but
even before that, with the exploitative and uncaring "me first"
attitude of the elites... but they have to be shown that this VA
system will not exploit them in any way- therefore, the use of the
word "slave" should be discouraged, and "loving cooperation" (which
you seem to have a problem with) encouraged- modern society may be
cooperative, of a sort and to a limited extent, but it certainly isn't
loving, isn't even personal- it is "every man and wmona for him/
herself"
Pancharatna das
I'm jumping in here with my first post to this conference. I haven't
read everything posted so I apologize if I am repeating anything or
asking questions that have been answered.
I'm also not writing as much as I could as I have limited time. Much
of what I write here is simply to get some points down.
Choosing (or being chosen) one's single varna through self-analysis is
a challenging affair.
How:
1) By birth
My understanding is that Manu prescribes varna by birth and prescribes
marriage formulas and samskaras to enable the appropriate results.
e.g., those born as brahmanas will be brahmanas.
2) by one's guru
Others say that it is the guru who determines one's varna.
3) self-analysis
Here self-analysis is proposed. But often this must be accompanied by
trial and error, exploration, etc.
In modern society, career choice is taught with various tools, but
they do not generally ascribe to just four divisions. For example, the
enneagram system has 9 personality types.
4) personal choice and training
Then there is the concept that anyone can be anything they choose, if
they take the appropriate training.
We hear " Kalau sudra sambhava." BUt by training, anyone can become dvija:.
"The International Society for Krishna Consciousness has been
organized for this purpose....Anyone can join the International
Society for Krishna Consciousness and be initiated to become
twice-born. As recommended by Sanatana Gosvami, by the process of
initiation and authorized training, any man can become twice-born.
.... Kalau sudra-sambhavah: in the age of Kali, everyone is a sudra.
Because the whole population of the world consists only of sudras,
there is a decline of spiritual knowledge, and people are unhappy. The
Krishna consciousness movement has been started especially to create
qualified brahmanas to broadcast spiritual knowledge all over the
world, for thus people may become very happy."
Srimad Bhagavatam 4.12.48 Purport
5) social mobility
In modern society people often start at the bottom and work their way
up to the limits of their ability (the Peter principle). People may
start as employees, then start their own business, later run for
political office, then retire and teach (or perhaps go back to being a
carpenter or whatever).
My questions:
1) what does the varna designation system offer that is better than
current career choosing?
For example, if I have leadership abilities and choose to start and
develop a non-profit NGO in which I both manage the organization and
train and teach others, while sometimes working as a consultant to
private business on a paid retainer, what difference does it make if I
call myself a Ksatriya, brahmana or sudra?
2) If designating a varna is a lifetime commitment won't most people
not want to choose, for fear they may decide in the future they want
to do something else? For example, one may want to work as a vaisya in
youth, but then give back to society as a civic leader in later age.
Who would choose to be a shudra if they have even a glimmer of hope to
be a vaisya one day?
3) Varna designations come with different social privileges, rights
and responsibilities. In the past this has led to oppressive and
unjust discrimination. Are varna designations worth the risk of such
social injustice as casteism?
Your servant,
Pancharatna dasa
Greg Jay
On Oct 11, 2010, at 1:57 AM, niscala dasi wrote:
> Whats the point in him buying the land for people, when no people are
> attracted?
My point is that offering serfdom is only going to attract sudras.
> Therefore, read my book,
If it is available in pdf format please send to me. I am open minded.
> So a leader will have the money or ability to obtain a property and
> then the next step is people.
>>
>> But the leader (King) needs to gather people with certain skill sets
>
> yes, but how? How to attract them?
The incentives for the different classes are different. Brahmins want to acquire knowledge, so offer them the chance to have plenty of time and opportunity to pursue that, in return he offers his services as priest, advisor and teacher. Ksatriyas want power and prestige in return for offering justice, protection, management. Vaishyas want profit so in return for running and building up local businesses he must be able to make and accumulate his profit. Sudras want security for their basic comforts in return for their physical and even technical labor.
These are the incentives.
> Many devotees only see
> disadvantages- no electricity, no transport, etc etc. Unless the
> advantages SUBSTANTIALLY outweigh the perceived disadvantages, then
> there will be no one moving on to the ksatriyas land, what to speak of
> getting those with the right skill set.
Right. But my idea of VA does not deny electricity or transport or any of those things. So this is a strawman argument. I have said that I do not think that these back to the dark ages type of VA communities will work. I suggest more of a hybrid ancient and modern system. Taking the advantages of modern ideas and technology and adding ancient ethics and social structure.
> "Revolt of the Elites" also
> goes a long way to show the advantages of the ancient paperless (and
> plastic-less) economy.
I am all for going paperless and plasticless. However I am not a fanatic. In the ancient times there was trash also. And it is hypocritical to built log cabins and not allow for the use of paper. I am all for being ecologically friendly and reducing our carbon footprint. Therefore I would have electricity by wind, solar, etc. instead of banning electricity why not use technology in the most eco friendly way possible? And as more clean technologies are created switch to them. I am all for that.
> People are not so mesmerized with the modern
> culture as you may think-
The bulk of them are. Your statement that MOST people are is ridiculous. You are just projecting. Please cite statistics to prove your statement.
> many are disenchanted- due to the GFC-
GFC??????
> but
> even before that, with the exploitative and uncaring "me first"
> attitude of the elites...
It is not just the elites who think me first. Everyone thinks like that. That is simply the nature of the age we live in.
Yes, I agree that EVERYONE not just elites must change their attitudes. The only way to do that is make people devotees, the only way to make everyone or most people devotees is to have a social system they will accept. And that means one that allows people to make a profit and whatever else each class hankers after.
> but they have to be shown that this VA
> system will not exploit them in any way- therefore, the use of the
> word "slave" should be discouraged,
I agree. I am only using it here to emphasize the point about the real nature of the position of sudras.
I also think that no devotees will even accept the title sudra. That has become a dirty word (though it should not be).
Thus we must come up with nice terminology that is acceptable for the different classes.
Intellectuals
Administrators
Business class
Worker class
I have no problem with money in VA. You are all the ones that have a problem with it. I mentioned that Prabhupada said that WORKERS should not get it or be allowed to accumulate it.
But I disagree. I am all for using money for rightful and proper purposes. I see there is nothing different from having commodities or money. And this is true as long as the outside culture allows for the exchange of money for commodities.
THE OUTSIDE CULTURE IS NOT GOING TO COLLAPSE. We cannot operate on any other assumption.
No one knows the future. If it does collapse then devotees will be overrun by non-devotees and not the other way around.
That is a predictable outcome. If is foolish to think that in the present state of ISKCON that ISKCON or it's devotees would be called upon to lead a world after a social and economic collapse anytime in the neat future. If you want to build ISKCON up to a state where it can do that then that is fine but right now it can't.
Therefore at the present moment and for the foreseeable future we must go by the assumption that the outside money based culture will continue.
So our first steps cannot be to simply try what Pol Pot tried and all just up and go to the farm and give up money.
This is nonsense. What we must do is create communities side by side the outside culture using technology and advancements in prudent ways. We must continue to use money except for those persons themselves and their descendants to being perpetual worker class. I do not think that the other classes should or will ever give up money. It is not necessary neither is it a part of VA for those classes to give up accumulated wealth.
> and "loving cooperation" (which
> you seem to have a problem with)
Social systems do not work on love. VA works on interdependence not love. It is symbiotic.
> encouraged- modern society may be
> cooperative, of a sort and to a limited extent, but it certainly isn't
> loving, isn't even personal- it is "every man and woman for him/
> herself"
VA is not about love at all. It is also a social system, a cooperative system. It is the best form of cooperative system because different classes are allowed to pursue their different goals.
I have nothing against personal or even humanistic love. It just is not the basis of VA.
GKD
niscala dasi
>>1) what does the varna designation system offer that is better than
current career choosing?
an intellectual, but if I don't have the qualities of a brahmana
described in the sastra, then I may use my intellectual work in such
things as creating "horrible works meant to destroy the world" - which
is much of what happened from the industrial revolution onwards...or
in creating resolutions to silence truth-speakers and promote child
molesters- which is what has happened in ISKCON.
Or I may choose to be a policeman, a ksatriya, but without courage I
am likely to shoot or taser and the first sign of threat, or as a
soldier, panic, and shoot at civilians (re the war in Afghanistan), or
if I choose to be a leader, and have no equal vision, then I will feel
no compunction to order troops to drop bombs on civilians, because
they live in a country with a handful of people who attacked my
people. In regards ISKCON, if I claim to be a brahmana but rather than
weed out corruption, I allow a child molester to be guru, re.
Lokanatha- because I like him, or whatever, then we have what we have
now. Social disunity symptomized by distrust from below, and lack of
integrity and care from above. So guna must be there first, then
accordingly karma. Otherwise karma will be dictated by the lower
modes, and based on ambition, covetousness, envy, laziness etc.
> For example, if I have leadership abilities and choose to start and
> develop a non-profit NGO in which I both manage the organization and
> train and teach others, while sometimes working as a consultant to
> private business on a paid retainer, what difference does it make if I
> call myself a Ksatriya, brahmana or sudra?
>
a wage or not- taxation is a kind of wage anyway, as it is taking
money from others, but the point is, the taking of money in tax, is to
redistribute it!.Thats the difference- so the ksatriya must be
generous. The word ksatriya means to protect from harm, so if your
"subjects" welfare is your primary concern, that is ksatriya. That is
pretty hard in business! Generally, businessman means vaisya. His
concern is the business, but he should be ethical. So its the primary
concern, which reflects the qualities given in the gita. Running a
devotee business, for the service of vaisnavas, one can do anything-
help the workers, run the business, counsel devotees etc as the need
arises. The goal is vaisnava seva. Not profit.
>>> 2) If designating a varna is a lifetime commitment won't most people
> not want to choose, for fear they may decide in the future they want
> to do something else? For example, one may want to work as a vaisya in
> youth, but then give back to society as a civic leader in later age.
> Who would choose to be a shudra if they have even a glimmer of hope to
> be a vaisya one day?
agriculture, business etc. When Krsna advises Arjuna not to do
anothers work, it must be taken in context- he was wanting to shirk
from his painful duty as a ksatriya, to imitate the brahmana. But if
someone afterwards had asked Arjuna "what did Krsna teach you?" do you
think he would have said "no, I can't tell you. I am a ksatriya, I can
only fight" - he would have explained the transcendental mystery! So
we should not follow rules for the sake of following or sticking to
them, as in the caste system, but we should not give them up
whimsically either, as Arjuna was trying to do. As need arises and for
the favourable discharge of devotional service, we take up one
service, then another...but generally there is one that our psycho-
physical nature is best inclined to. For example- you may not be a
ksatriya counsellor, but if you see someone very distressed, you may
try to help. You may not be as effective as the ksatriya counsellor,
but you see the need to serve a vaisnava...if you are not trying to
usurp the position of ksatriya counsellor, for prestige etc, but
simply to help - you serve the purpose of VA which is to help each
other- cooperation (I can't say "loving cooperation" as GKP doesn't
like it :( )
> 3) Varna designations come with different social privileges, rights
> and responsibilities. In the past this has led to oppressive and
> unjust discrimination. Are varna designations worth the risk of such
> social injustice as casteism?
Therefore, GKP's suggestion to treat workers as slaves is utterly
impractical First, get a leader like Maharaja Rantideva, then slavery
will be a vehicle for loving exchange and support in all
circumstances. According to how much saintliness is there in the
ksatriya, how much he treats everyone with the same affection and
personal involvement as his own family members, then accordingly
there will be trust, and then VA has a possibility. Therefore, in my
book "VA THE 8 Petalled Lotus" I am pushing home the point about the
need for involved, caring, concerned leaders as the pre-requisite for
VA- otherwise it will be the caste system. I wrote the book
specifically to prevent that possibility, not to push for VA but
prevent the caste system.
Sorry my response was only to part of your post-really running out of
time!
niscala dasi
In the soft version, I only have an earlier edition- don't know what
happened to the final file- but will send you to give you an idea.
>> My point is that offering serfdom is only going to attract sudras.
>>> The incentives for the different classes are different. Brahmins want to acquire knowledge, so offer them the chance to have plenty of time and opportunity to pursue that, in return he offers his services as priest, advisor and teacher. Ksatriyas want power and prestige in return for offering justice, protection, management. Vaishyas want profit so in return for running and building up local businesses he must be able to make and accumulate his profit. Sudras want security for their basic comforts in return for their physical and even technical labor.
>
> These are the incentives.
stressed slavery and serfhood? It seems you are moderating your view,
which is open-mindedness, and very nice.
>>> Right. But my idea of VA does not deny electricity or transport or any of those things. So this is a strawman argument. I have said that I do not think that these back to the dark ages type of VA communities will work. I suggest more of a hybrid ancient and modern system. Taking the advantages of modern ideas and technology and adding ancient ethics and social structure.
> GFC??????
>
global financial crisis
> It is not just the elites who think me first. Everyone thinks like that. That is simply the nature of the age we live in.
>
> Yes, I agree that EVERYONE not just elites must change their attitudes. The only way to do that is make people devotees, the only way to make everyone or most people devotees is to have a social system they will accept. And that means one that allows people to make a profit and whatever else each class hankers after.
>
with anything like the same intensity- thats the ideal, simple living,
being satisfied with the gifts of nature. Money may not be banned
entirely, though, DP has conceded so we are more on the same page than
we thought at the outset...so in the beginning, we need not stress the
need to avoid profit, just stress about the benfits of your livelihood
not being dependent on the up and down roller coaster ride that is the
current economic global situation. That is security, the main reason
why people want money- not just because the notes look pretty, or
George Washington could have been a pin-up boy!
It is not always greed, but concern for security, but real security is
in friendship, people who care- loving cooperation- oops! Sorry!
> Thus we must come up with nice terminology that is acceptable for the different classes.
>
> Intellectuals
> Administrators
> Business class
> Worker class
protectors
providers
workers
that stresses working for the good of all
> I have nothing against personal or even humanistic love. It just is not the basis of VA.
humanistic love, if not for members of your VA community? Therefore,
loving cooperation. Esp in a vaisnava setting, the 6 loving exchanges
need to be engaged in, regardless of varna.
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
> Since arriving here we have "run into," almost without trying, five or
> six interested people. We are delivering japa beads to one this
> weekend, when she comes over for dinner on Sunday. People are out
> there seeking a positive spiritual alternative! Put up some posters
> with a meditation or mantra yoga invitation and they WILL arrive! A
> devotee couple, about an hour from here, did just that. We attended
> their second monthly program on Friday, which was attended by 15
> guests, all enthusiastically chanting, eating prasadam and discussing
> philosophy. Their first program attracted 17.
It sounds like a great project. You are the future of America! Prabhupada
said that people would become so much oppressed that they would run to the
hills, and when they do, you will be there to guide them!
Are you the same Prabhupada das who was having varnasrama meetings in Los
Angeles around 1989-90?
I was working to develop Padayatra America at that time and attended a few
meetings.
Your servant
Samba das