Why Varnashrama Won't Work

[Dhanesvara Das]

There are many reasons why Varnashrama won't / can't work, including:

1. There is no common understanding of what varnashrama culture is
2. They (potential participants) do not know what their duty is in
varnashrama culture
3. Everyone is unqualified, and lacking integrity they do not do their
duty
4. Because some are lacking in integrity we have no faith in each
other
5. Participants have no trust that they will have proper health care,
care for catastrophic illness, etc.
6. The qualified men are not participating, therefore leadership is
lacking
7. Not enough people are willing to live simply; they want to live at
a high standard of modern life with all amenities
8. Possible participants want specialized training for their children
that is not available in the villages.
9. Parents want their children to attend college; where will the funds
for that come from?
10. The work is too hard
11. There will be no modern amenities such as internet, refrigerators,
or washing machines
12. Because of so many past failures our devotees have no faith that
it can work
13. Maybe you know of other reasons. If so, please add them to the
list.

Another way of stating this is that if we want to establish
varnashrama culture we will have to solve these problems and overcome
these objections.

I would like to hear your thoughts about how this can be accomplished.
Please respond to any or all items and keep them on this thread by
replying to this email. Feel free to write at length.

[Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)]

Gurukula - Gurukula - Gurukula.

Practically all the above problems are resolved when you bring up kids in
the right way. The elites know this and have designed education to make
compliant wage slaves who are plagued all the above shortcomings.

All it takes is fifteen to twenty years to bring up kids for whom varnasrama
culture and all it represents is just second nature.

We need a few adults to set things up for them so that when they graduate
they have a place to do their thing with full support. As you point out,
only a handful of adults are ready to surrender to a varnasrama lifestyle.
They should help to oversee the development of schools. But of course we
have to be super vigilant to make sure that those in contact with children
are properly motivated and can be trusted.

The developing world crisis will also go a long way in changing peoples
minds, but you just cannot replace the hardwiring of a persons brain during
childhood. It sets the tone for everything.

>
> I would like to hear your thoughts about how this can be accomplished.
> Please respond to any or all items and keep them on this thread by
> replying to this email. Feel free to write at length.

We have to work on so many fronts simultaneously and it is possible to
convert some people, but without providing full life training from the
earliest age it will always remain a great struggle.

Your servant
Samba das

[Caitanya]

Varnasrama is not a theoretical subject. It's a practical one. A
"thinking" Centipedes will have difficulty moving forward, if she/he/
it had to think of each move for each leg. In fact the transposition
of asrama alone part of varnasrama was the greatest failure already,
now add to it failure of gurukula social experiment and spice it with
varna social engineering and you have a complete devastation in a
small largely congregational volunteer movement.

[niscala dasi]

i gave a lengthy reply to this article and nothing happened, though it
said the posting was successful- anyone can help me find it again?

[John McLeod]

Mataji,

 

Immediately below is a post by you from yesterday, Oct 4th which I recently received. I hope it is what you are looking for. Haribol. ys, Haripada dasa 

 

On 10/4/10, niscala dasi <niscal...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

Haribol, and thank you for letting me join in your discussion group,
which I was hoping was existing in some part of the world, just didn't
know where. It has long been apparent to me that most of our problems
can be traced back to VA not being implemented in our society, and
that implementing it would have great spiritual and psychological
benefits for our members, as well as making our society actually "a
house in which the whole world can live". I have written a book,
"Varnashrama the eight-petalled lotus" which expands upon these as
well as the following ideas...

FAITH, VARNASHRAMA… AND AIR-BORNE CHILDREN

Varnashrama is often equated with self-sufficiency, yet it is much
more than that, providing a paradigm wherein many of our current
problems, plaguing us since our inception, find their solution.
Currently being discussed on the internet is the problem of
brahmacaris neglecting their future careers, and thereby entering the
grhastha ashrama, unprepared. Coincidentally this is being discussed
in two different forums- hence emphasizing the seriousness of the
situation. It was observed that when brahmacaris neglect their
careers, they often cannot afford child support when the marriage
splits- which often happens because we also do not teach that love is
so important in the family. Because they cannot afford child support
payments, due to not having a decent career, the issue often ends up
in the courts- which is really bad for our reputation, what to speak
of not pleasing Srila Prabhupada.

The varnashrama paradigm is very different to our current situation…
During brahmacarya, the student is observed very carefully, and his
desires, talents and propensities are considered, and then he is
advised to get training accordingly- in one of the four varnas.

Brahmana Varna
ISKCON can provide training for brahmanas provided that we teach the
value of honesty, the most basic and essential brahminical principle.
There is philosophical honesty, which has two parts- 1) theoretical
philosophical honesty- which is to argue cogently, with reason, thus
establishing the truth of an argument and 2) practical philosophical
honesty- which is to use the philosophy in a way that allows people to
be themselves, without fear of judgement and condemnation. If instead
we model pretense, in Srila Prabhupada’s coinage “showbottle
spirituality”, then our brahmanas might as well be trained in
philosophy at a university- at least they will learn to argue
cogently, and convince with reason.

Other Varnas
In these ways, ISKCON can provide training if the brahmacari is sure
that he only wants to maintain a family the brahminical way- through
teaching practical applications of the philosophy. As far as other
varnas are concerned, brahmacaris can attend university or technical
colleges, according to their propensities. In Canberra, Australia,
they have Indian brahmacaris studying at university and living at the
temple. They can either pay rent if they have time to work part-time,
or they may prefer to do service.

Brahmacari Ashrama
We must remember that brahmacari does not mean sannyasi- he is
renounced, but often not planning for permanent renunciation.
Brahmacari also does not mean brahmana- he may be interested in the
philosophy, but more suited to work that is not directly teaching it.
Or he may be interested in the philosophy, but unable to follow all
the brahminical principles. That situation includes most of those who
join us- we should make facility for it, not pretend that we just
chant Hare Krsna, and close our eyes and all problems will vanish like
magic. Srila Prabhupada chanted Hare Krsna too, but he observed this
problem- with open eyes- and recommended varnashrama. Let brahmacaris
(and brahmacarinis) decide on their varna, and get trained in it. They
can also distribute books to their friends at college, or during their
holidays.

Faith and the Air-Borne Child
The temple presidents in our movement would probably not like such a
situation, as they may think "if we encourage all brahmacaris to get
training for their future careers, then less books will go out, and
therefore there will be less money for the temple programs"…

My answer to them is as follows ...

1) Srila Prabhupada set the example of doing what is right, and
leaving the results in Krsna's hands, having faith that He will always
protect us if we take risks on His behalf. We cannot please Krsna
while we neglect the instructions of His pure devotee...So we must ask
ourselves "Do we have only a lip-service attitude to our faith in
Srila Prabhupada- proclaiming it, but not really feeling it?" If we do
have faith, then we cannot help but show it. Faith means a leap in the
dark, a leap into the unknown. It’s like a child laughing when his
parents throw him up in the air- his carefree attitude is because he
has utmost faith that his parents will catch him!

Short-Term Pain, Long-Term Gain
2) Letting devotees follow their propensity and getting training for
it, means that they are naturally situated in whatever work they are
best suited for; work that they are happy to engage in their whole
lives. That means a vast reduction in the numbers of devotees leaving
ISKCON to do other stuff- they can do their "other stuff" in ISKCON!
What this translates to, in strictly financial terms, is instead of a
few devotees giving out books  full-time, and often getting stressed
and burnt-out in the process, you have a huge number of devotees
giving out books part-time and in natural spontaneous ways- sharing
them with friends and associates. You also have, in financial terms, a
devotee community that is capable of donating to the temple programs.
This is already happening in the Indian congregation. They did not
spend their student life in full-time book sales, but mainly in
studying, and now they can not only donate to the temple, but also
support book distribution is respectable ways, amongst colleagues...

Internal Rewards
So Srila Prabhupada's recommendation is not even a "leap in the dark"
but has already been shown to work much better than the current ISKCON
model (how many of our Indian congregation “bloop”- never to be seen
again?) It is natural, and therefore it uproots the anarthas of
falsity and pretense, mentioned by Sri Chaitanya in Caitanya
Caritamrita. Srimad Bhagavatam was spoken specifically for those who
are “thoroughly honest”. Apart from greatly advanced avadhutas, many
of the great souls mentioned in that literature, followed their duties
in varnashrama- as well as the author! Only those who are beyond any
influence of the modes of nature, need give up varnashrama, and even
then they often do not, as it is a vehicle for service…

The Self-Sufficiency Insufficiency
Varnashrama, therefore, does not mean just self-sufficiency, as some
think. It is not a synonym for life on a farm- it can happen anywhere
there are people interested to become devotees. Of course, at a farm,
the training is much simpler, as is the lifestyle. That does not mean
that ksatriyas should not take advantage of management courses-
currently much of what is considered “management” is the people-skills
necessary for a ksatriya to be respected and appreciated. Devotees
will willingly and joyfully serve a person who is always enquiring
about their welfare, and doing everything to help them be happy, and
grow in Krsna Consciousness.

From Care-Borne to Air-Borne
If in the community, love and honesty between the devotees is
stressed, then naturally when two devotees join forces and become
married, they will be loving and respectful, and the likelihood of
divorce is much reduced. It is not enough to make child abuse
unacceptable- one must foster that healthy dynamic which creates an
atmosphere in which such exploitation cannot take place. If we respect
the uniqueness of each person that joins us, working out how we can
engage them so that they are most joyful by nurturing their natural
talents – we will also  respect the uniqueness of each devotee born
into our movement.

If, on the other hand, we have a mood of exploitation, even for
“Krsna’s service”, towards those innocent souls who are attracted to
our movement, then our children will also be abused, as they are in
the same category…It is the ksatriya’s responsibility, given in the
sastra, to make sure that no one in his “kingdom” or precinct, suffers
in any way, even mentally. He is that person who has the most people-
skills- or willing to learn them!


Non-Judgmental Religion?
It is clear from the Mahabharata and Srimad Bhagavatam, that
varnashrama is a very loving and non-judgmental dynamic- in Dwaraka
even the prostitutes were respected! When the religious become steeped
in self-righteous condemnation of others, they do more to further the
cause of atheism, than if they took to a full-time career of
disproving God. We do not have prostitutes joining us, generally, but
we do have couples and others who sometimes fail the “no illicit sex”
principle strictly.  If even a prostitute can be a respected devotee
of the Lord, what to speak of a devoted couple, fully dedicated to the
Lord’s service? What to speak of a fully devoted gay couple?

Varnashrama needs to be there, so that everyone can be a devotee of
the Lord, who wants to be, be included in a community of devotees, be
engaged in service that is pleasing and natural, be able to support
their families- and the temple, and thrive in  an atmosphere of mutual
respect and appreciation…despite their differences. Of course, it may
be argued that all of the above can be cultivated without varnashrama,
which is a circular argument, because all of the above means that
there is the varnashrama dynamic in place, whether we call it that or
not.

[niscala dasi]

no that wasn't it- it was a point by point reply to the first post by
Dhanesvara- I guess I will just have to rewrite it in a word document

On Oct 5, 2:19 pm, John McLeod <harip...@wildblue.net> wrote:
> Mataji,
>
> Immediately below is a post by you from yesterday, Oct 4th which I
> recently received. I hope it is what you are looking for. Haribol. ys,
> Haripada dasa
>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Dhanesvara Das]

Prabhupada Das Prabhu, in response to your statement below, please
note that below the list of reasons "why varnashrama won't work, I
stated, "Another way of stating this is that if we want to establish

varnashrama culture we will have to solve these problems and overcome
these objections."

The subject line, that it won't work, was kind of a red herring, and
meant to generate a reaction. These are the reasons that I hear from
others, and thus the things that we need to overcome and educate
others (and ourselves) about in order to make varnashrama culture
successful.

And as Caitanya has stated it is not a theoretical subject, but many
aspects of it that are intangible. It is a culture and cultural
practices are typically learned by observation. However, in our case,
in the endeavor to construct (or reconstruct?) a culture that does not
presently exist we definitely have to build a conceptual understanding
of it first, before we can practice it. It is my hope that we can make
progress toward that goal on this forum.

Can we begin specific threads on each of these points? Anybody, pick
one, and have at it.

DDas

On Oct 4, 6:15 pm, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam
<shri.apurvadapari...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Rather than discuss all the reasons why Varnashram won't/cannot work,
> and all the current and past problems in the Sampradaya, why not spend
> time answering the above critical and essential question, so that
> members of this Group can evolve a common understanding?  Once a
> common understanding is reached, an application formula can be
> derived, and each member can begin to apply that where they are, first
> on an individual level, then among receptive associates, then, to the
> general public, with the aim of starting an Urban Monastery/Rural
> Village Partnership.
>

[niscala dasi]

responses to Dahnesvara prabhu's points:
1. “there is no understanding of what varnashrama culture is”-

there is a lot of misunderstanding, actually, most devotees seem to
think it is only about self-sufficiency, and they don’t see how they
can fit into that, not being farming types. So if they understand that
VA is about whatever one likes to do best, then it is much more
attractive

2. “They (potential participants) do not know what their duty is in

varnashrama culture”
The duty is according to their nature, if a person is naturally
inclined to care for others and see them with the same concern as his
own family members, and relieve their every type of distress, then he
is naturally a ksatriya. Or he may be inclined to help people overcome
their distress through transcendental awareness, then he is a
brahmana. In every varna, the focus is always “how can I help you?”
this is the spirit of cooperation and love that makes it work.

3. “Everyone is unqualified, and lacking integrity they do not do
their

duty”. The lack of integrity is a symptom of a society without
varnashrama- a result rather than a cause of it. Varnashrama’s
essential theory is karma yoga- whatever you do, can be done for the
Lord…and you are perfect by doing it, you do not have to imitate
another who is more advanced or more respected, actually that is the
path to hell…both for the society and ourselves, because we become
lost. We simply have to match the karma (work, service) with the
already existing guna. Then we can “soar with our strengths”

In varnashrama, everyone is qualified, because whatever qualities they
have that are favorable for devotional service, are used in the
service of the Lord’s devotees. In this respect, integrity is
essential, as only those qualities favorable to devotional service can
be utilized. For example, one may want to be a ksatriya, but for the
purpose of serving one’s own ambition, rather than because one has a
burning desire to care for people. Or one may care more about making
money, and having an opulent temple, than having a temple where
devotees are happy and cared for in every way, and one will push
devotees into making money who are not suited for it, making them
miserable, and forcing them to leave after some time. One’s guna
should be as a vaisya not a ksatriya, but the ksatriya is given more
respect and obedience, so one desires to covet that position.
Therefore Krishna condemns “doing another man’s duty”- it will send
one to hell, along with one’s fellow citizens. Arjuna was giving false
reasons to Krsna for shirking from his duty - which was to give his
subjects good leadership by winning the war of Kuruksetra. His real
reason was to avoid painful confrontation. Similarly, if we have the
capability to distinguish matter from spirit, the quality of a
brahmana, we must not shirk from the duty to be truthful, even if it
will bring conflict. Every man’s natural quality is good, it just
needs to be freed from the modes of passion and ignorance, in other
words, from selfishness, to be able to be used in the service of the
Lord’s devotees.

4. Because some are lacking in integrity we have no faith in each

Other

You have mentioned “integrity” twice, it is clearly important to you.
SP also saw a need for integrity among devotees, he saw what he
described was “showbottle spirituality”- falsity, duplicity- in the
movement, and pushed for varnashrama- as it was “honest” and therefore
pleasing to the Lord. He said “what is the use of making so many
brahmanas when they fall down?” and “better that they remain sudras,
but even as a sudra, if he is a vaisnava, he has all perfection” The
idea is that there is not greater or lesser in devotee communities.
Every devotee engaged in the Lord’s service is my master, is “prabhu”

Integrity is also fostered in VA because the leaders are those with
the most integrity, who are thoroughly honest, regardless of what
personal consequences may come from that honest feedback- this honesty
and detachment- that is the characteristic of the brahmana. Not a two-
paisa thread.

5. Participants have no trust that they will have proper health care,
care for catastrophic illness, etc.

That is because they have only experienced leadership that exploits
them and neglects them in their hour of need. There is no question of
a child being neglected by loving parents, who make all provisions for
his future. Similarly, anyone who does not make all provisions for the
material and spiritual wellbeing of the members, but takes their time
and money, is simply not a ksatriya. This brings up the question of
how to organize VA? Simply observe- who is that person who is most
concerned about devotees’ wellbeing, always discussing it, pushing for
it- empower him with the service. He will excel at it, and devotees
will feel really cared for and valued. No one will ever leave our
society and people will see the loving mood and want to join, and our
temples will be overflowing. In this impersonal Kali yuga of
exploitation and isolation, who would not be attracted?

6. The qualified men are not participating, therefore leadership is
lacking

Again that is a result of not having VA rather than a cause of it, but
who do you define as a leader? A person wearing saffron, or ACBSP
after his name? Or a person with the qualities of Arjuna- who was
prepared to jump into fire rather than not be able to relieve the
distress of a citizen? You have to look beyond the status symbols, the
dandas, the titles, etc. Otherwise VA is simply a process of labeling
people for the purpose of exploiting them, and fulfilling the
ambitions of the powerful. In other words, it is the caste system,
which was detested by SP and every other soft-hearted vaisnava in our
line. One of his purposes of creating ISKCON was to do away with such
exploitations of the weak and vulnerable. I wrote “Varnashrama the
eight-petalled Lotus” not to promote varnashrama in ISKCON but to stop
it degenerating into the caste system. All the signs are there that it
will. We need to be warned.

The reason that qualified men are not participating, is because we
have not empowered them through the introduction of varnashrama, which
matches karma with guna- participation (work, karma) according to ones
qualification (guna)

So this doesn’t get too long, I will send off these first 6 responses
for your thoughtful consideration. Thank you for hearing me out.

> > Village Partnership.- Hide quoted text -

[Dhanesvara Das]

On Oct 5, 2:35 pm, niscala dasi <niscala_d...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> responses to Dahnesvara prabhu's points:

Wow, I asked for someone to pick one and go for it and Nilacala is
doing them all!

Again, I ask the members of this conference to fill in their profile
data so that we have some idea of your experience. I don’t know what
your practical experience is Nilacala but it would definitely be
helpful to know. My experience is that I have been living in a foreign
country working with devotees for the past two and a half years to get
some action for a community based on genuine varnashrama culture (and
I am very specific about what that means). There are successes and
failures. There is also a lot of practical realization in seeing how
people act and why. So I will respond to you point by point based on
my experience.

> 1. “there is no understanding of what varnashrama culture is”-
>
> there is a lot of misunderstanding, actually, most devotees seem to
> think it is only about self-sufficiency, and they don’t see how they
> can fit into that, not being farming types. So if they understand that
> VA is about whatever one likes to do best, then it is much more
> attractive
>

This is good, but there is more to it than that (please see me
response to Caitanya and Prabhupada Das on a different thread). Yes
you get to do what you like to do, but then how is the community
organized? Modern society is organized by money: whoever has the money
is the boss. That is not how we organize our village culture. We need
to know who has both ability and responsibility before they can give
the orders. Otherwise you can wind up with someone who is active/
foolish in command. It is not enough for someone to just say “I like
to be the boss, and I should be the boss because that's what I like to
do!"

> 2. “They (potential participants) do not know what their duty is in
> varnashrama culture”
> The duty is according to their nature, if a person is naturally
> inclined to care for others and see them with the same concern as his
> own family members, and relieve their every type of distress, then he
> is naturally a ksatriya. Or he may be inclined to help people overcome
> their distress through transcendental awareness, then he is a
> brahmana. In every varna, the focus is always “how can I help you?”
> this is the spirit of cooperation and love that makes it work.

This is also very good. Yes, varnashrama dharma means that the focus
is on others! But again there is more to it.

When I wrote that it is based on my experience. The amazing thing is
that many people DO NOT KNOW their own nature! Think I’m kidding? I’m
not. When I speak on varnashrama dharma I talk about guna and karma
being easy to understand, you just do what you *like* to do. And I ask
the devotees “how many of you do NOT know what you like to do?”
Typically 50% of the hands go up! We are so alienated from ourselves,
and live such artificial lives in the city that we don’t even know
what we like to do! We just do what makes the most money. AND THIS IS
A TRAGEDY!

You make many good points here, but in what I was thinking about in
making this objection is that (as I explain in the paper Money and
Varnashrama Culture” which I hope you will read. It’s in the files
section here, and posted on Dandavats) the varnashrama culture is a
mutually-dependent culture in which the security of each is provided
by the other members of the group. We have no experience of such a
thing in our modern culture and I see that this point has to be
drilled into everyone. Still it is not understood, and as Samba said
in earlier, given the unconscious nature of culture it is unlikely
that we will actually be able to really get this in this life unless
the entire society entirely breaks down and our survival demands it.
So far, in my practical experience almost nobody that I work with is
qualified in terms of duties as one of the varnas, not even the
sudras, both in terms of knowledge as well as responsibility. Maybe
I’m just in the wrong place?

> 4. Because some are lacking in integrity we have no faith in each
> Other
>
> You have mentioned “integrity” twice, it is clearly important to you.
> SP also saw a need for integrity among devotees, he saw what he
> described was “showbottle spirituality”- falsity, duplicity- in the
> movement, and pushed for varnashrama- as it was “honest” and therefore
> pleasing to the Lord. He said “what is the use of making so many
> brahmanas when they fall down?” and “better that they remain sudras,
> but even as a sudra, if he is a vaisnava, he has all perfection” The
> idea is that there is not greater or lesser in devotee communities.
> Every devotee engaged in the Lord’s service is my master, is “prabhu”
>
> Integrity is also fostered in VA because the leaders are those with
> the most integrity, who are thoroughly honest, regardless of what
> personal consequences may come from that honest feedback- this honesty
> and detachment- that is the characteristic of the brahmana. Not a two-
> paisa thread.

Not that it is so important to me, but it is important to the members
of the community. I am trying to build an actual self-sufficient
community. When potential members ask me how they are going to be
protected I point to the other members of the community and say “they
are your protection.”

Whoa! We have no experience of this in our modern culture. Depend on
others?! And if they are not responsible where is that going to leave
me? Up a creek without a paddle!

In such a culture integrity is worth more than gold! And until we
understand that and rise to the necessary standard we cannot have a
self-sufficient community. The trust just won’t be there.

>
> 5. Participants have no trust that they will have proper health care,
> care for catastrophic illness, etc.
>
> That is because they have only experienced leadership that exploits
> them and neglects them in their hour of need. There is no question of
> a child being neglected by loving parents, who make all provisions for
> his future. Similarly, anyone who does not make all provisions for the
> material and spiritual wellbeing of the members, but takes their time
> and money, is simply not a ksatriya. This brings up the question of
> how to organize VA? Simply observe- who is that person who is most
> concerned about devotees’ wellbeing, always discussing it, pushing for
> it- empower him with the service. He will excel at it, and devotees
> will feel really cared for and valued. No one will ever leave our
> society and people will see the loving mood and want to join, and our
> temples will be overflowing. In this impersonal Kali yuga of
> exploitation and isolation, who would not be attracted?

I like your answers to these points a lot. It shows that you have been
thinking deeply on these points. But more specifically here, where is
the money going to come from? For example, we have 6 participants at
our Gitagrad community now. We do not have a full-blown varnashrama
village in which the ksatriya goes around and collects taxes and uses
some of it to buy toothpaste, or else neglects the toothpaste to buy
himself a new cell phone. The money is scarce, and the spending is
very thrifty. So when devotees who want to come live here ask what
will happen if I break my arm? I ask them what will happen if you
break your arm now? Most don’t have any savings for catastrophic
health care. They depend on their families or the government. Ideally
our situation will change as the community matures. New Vraja Dham,
Sivarama Swami’s community has a great deal of income (their budget
for the Deity worship is over $100,000 a year!) and they deal with
this in a very different way. This will be the case everywhere.

> 6. The qualified men are not participating, therefore leadership is
> lacking
>
> Again that is a result of not having VA rather than a cause of it, but
> who do you define as a leader? A person wearing saffron, or ACBSP
> after his name? Or a person with the qualities of Arjuna- who was
> prepared to jump into fire rather than not be able to relieve the
> distress of a citizen? You have to look beyond the status symbols, the
> dandas, the titles, etc. Otherwise VA is simply a process of labeling
> people for the purpose of exploiting them, and fulfilling the
> ambitions of the powerful. In other words, it is the caste system,
> which was detested by SP and every other soft-hearted vaisnava in our
> line. One of his purposes of creating ISKCON was to do away with such
> exploitations of the weak and vulnerable. I wrote “Varnashrama the
> eight-petalled Lotus” not to promote varnashrama in ISKCON but to stop
> it degenerating into the caste system. All the signs are there that it
> will. We need to be warned.
>
> The reason that qualified men are not participating, is because we
> have not empowered them through the introduction of varnashrama, which
> matches karma with guna- participation (work, karma) according to ones
> qualification (guna)

Well, not exactly. I am begging such men to participate but they are
all “busy” with something else. Again, please see my paper “Revolt of
the Elites”

>
> So this doesn’t get too long, I will send off these first 6 responses
> for your thoughtful consideration. Thank you for hearing me out.

And thank you for taking time to respond in detail!

[niscala dasi]

thank you prabhu, for sharing your practical experiences and
realizations- btw my name is niscala, not nilacala! I value your
comments greatly as they are based on practical experience in trying
to get VA started...i will definitely read your other posts as soon as
I get a chance- but I want you to know they are my highest priority-
this forum is a breath of fresh air for me...

>>It is not enough for someone to just say “I like
> to be the boss, and I should be the boss because that's what I like to
> do!"

Not everyone, this is for those who opt for less responsibility. It is
interesting that in the gita, when Krsna describes the "work" of
ksatriyas and brahmanas, He describes their qualifications for
working, but when describing the vaisya's and sudra's work, He
describes the work itself. This makes it clear that certain guna must
be there for leadership, but for service that is not leadership
(though we are all defacto leaders) it is all about karma, it can be
whatever a person likes to do- that can be used in vaisnava seva, of
course. SP explains that this will make a person very joyful, and that
following KC will be very natural for him.

>>>Yes
> you get to do what you like to do, but then how is the community
> organized? Modern society is organized by money: whoever has the money
> is the boss. That is not how we organize our village culture. We need
> to know who has both ability and responsibility before they can give
> the orders.

Yes, when I say, "whatever you like to do" it does not mean without
training. For example, myself, I like to grow vegetables, but unless I
am trained in how to do it- knowing how to fertilize without
chemicals, to manage pests non-violently, when to plant each type of
vegetable, etc- then it will be a failure. Similarly, even after
establishing a very caring and loving and concerned person in the role
of administrator, he needs training- in how to handle conflict, in
counselling, in inspiring others to give their whole potential, in so
many arts intrinsic to good administration. But he will want to do all
that, if he has the spirit and nature to care for others.

>>This is also very good. Yes, varnashrama dharma means that the focus
> is on others! But again there is more to it.

there is more to it, but that is the essence- loving cooperation.
Without that, all else is decoration on a dead body that becomes more
putrid every day.

>>And I ask
> the devotees “how many of you do NOT know what you like to do?”
> Typically 50% of the hands go up! We are so alienated from ourselves,
> and live such artificial lives in the city that we don’t even know
> what we like to do! We just do what makes the most money. AND THIS IS
> A TRAGEDY!

it is an absolute tragedy. Envision a joyful society, nay a one
overflowing with joy, then how to get there? Everyone wants to be
happy, but they think that happiness comes from money, and in our
society we impose this illusion on the philosophy- happiness is making
money for Krsna, even if I am not naturally a money-maker! SP many
times said "money is not important, Krsna will provide" Similarly,
establish the vaisnava dynamic then money will come in. Juts dont even
think about it, think about making people joyful, then people will
join who have money..it will attract them....in the beginning, SP had
no money, but he never worried about it- he said "just chant Hare
Krsna and be happy" and people were so happy to have someone who
cared, that they gave him money, without being asked. But that money
is not important does not mean that it can't be used in Krsna's
service- detachment is the other side of the coin of attachment.
Therefore, VA communities can have merchants and businessmen who make
money- BUT they enjoy doing it- and in this way, the temple can pay
its bills (miniumum bills, land tax etc- also devotees HEALTH CARE
FUND- another topic)

>>the varnashrama culture is a
> mutually-dependent culture in which the security of each is provided
> by the other members of the group. We have no experience of such a
> thing in our modern culture and I see that this point has to be
> drilled into everyone. Still it is not understood, and as Samba said
> in earlier, given the unconscious nature of culture it is unlikely
> that we will actually be able to really get this in this life unless
> the entire society entirely breaks down and our survival demands it

I don't think it needs to come down to a matter of survival- people
are not surviving, they are walking dead bodies- feeding only the
outside. Survival means spiritual and psychological well-being also.
Psychologically, we need to feel needed, valued, appreciated, and VA
is perfect for this, as we see how we survive by each others mercy-
the wood we burn was cut by that bhakta over there- the vegetables
grown by that mataji, etc. everything local, not hidden by the
currency. Money is an evil, because it makes the world impersonal.
Instead of seeing service done by a person, we represent the value of
the service with a paper note, and that servant then becomes faceless
to us. This breeds isolation and loneliness, a feeling of making no
difference in the world- a very common complaint of the therapists
couch!. Spiritually we need to feel some purpose to exist- we exist
for service to the Lord THROUGH His devotees- and when we offer
necessary service, we thrive on the inside.

We need to be re-educated on how to be happy- money gives a false
sense of security, real security is through friendship- you can lose
all your money very easily through one efficeint burglary, but good
friends will stand by you- this needs to be stressed. Go to some
village in Nepal and see how people live joyfully without security of
money- they depend on their friends in times of need- they do not need
a health fund for mental illness, at least, they talk to their friends
when in distress. Existing without money dependency is utterly
natural, and works much better.

>>>When potential members ask me how they are going to be
> protected I point to the other members of the community and say “they
> are your protection.”

They are your protection already, even without VA. Imagine living in
ISKCON by yourself- only one member- you! You wouldn't survive either
physically, emotionally or spiritually- so you already exist by their
mercy. You just don't realize it. Money, the false veil of security,
has clouded your vision.

>>Whoa! We have no experience of this in our modern culture. Depend on
> others?! And if they are not responsible where is that going to leave
> me? Up a creek without a paddle!

We have that already- look at Citra Dasi we were not responsible for
her, so she felt herself a burden and ended her life miserably. VA
means- you are my object of service- without you, I cannot serve the
Lord. He refuses to be served by me directly. If I neglect you, I open
the pathway to hell of samsara, even if I am chanting 64 rounds or
even 24 hours a day. My chanting is riddled with offense, and the Lord
does not hear it. It is through you, through service to you only, that
I can serve the Lord, and free myself- practically this means, I care
for your welfare- if I die, there is a fund in place for your future
medical care, should you need it. That pleases the Lord more than
opulent offerings.

>>until we
> understand that and rise to the necessary standard we cannot have a
> self-sufficient community. The trust just won’t be there.

Exactly, and trust building begins here and now. It starts with SP's
recommendation, 25% of funds for emergencies, like medical needs. 25%
for direct maintenance, and the other half to spread the movement. A
quarter has to be put aside- that is long term vision. This, btw, is
independent of VA- it should be in place in every temple- healthy
finances.

>>But more specifically here, where is
> the money going to come from? For example, we have 6 participants at
> our Gitagrad community now. We do not have a full-blown varnashrama
> village in which the ksatriya goes around and collects taxes and uses
> some of it to buy toothpaste, or else neglects the toothpaste to buy
> himself a new cell phone. The money is scarce, and the spending is
> very thrifty. So when devotees who want to come live here ask what
> will happen if I break my arm?

You need to be honest- we are beginning this project, we do not have a
medical fund, but if you live with us, there will be little
expenditure, and you can put aside your savings in a term deposit that
earns you interest- a little for daily extra expenses that you might
need, and the rest is your medical fund. If you do not have savings,
then all we can offer you is that we do care for you, and as people
join us who may donate money, we will put aside 25% for a general
medical fund- at least you can live here free of charge, and do
service that you like to do.

Many countries have general medical insurance free of charge for the
poor, so even in absolute self-sufficiency, there has to be one
vehicle, properly maintained, to act as an ambulance, should there be
need.

(their budget
> for the Deity worship is over $100,000 a year!)

then the devotee medical and emergency fund should be at least
$100,000 per year. 25% for maintenance, 25% for emergencies. 50% -
$200,000 -for spreading KC such as purchasing land for VA communities,
for we need not just distribute books, but provide facility for all
types of people who want to surrender to the Lord after reading the
books- isn't that the whole purpose of book distribution? Or is it
just about quotas?

> > The reason that qualified men are not participating, is because we
> > have not empowered them through the introduction of varnashrama, which
> > matches karma with guna- participation (work, karma) according to ones
> > qualification (guna)
>
> Well, not exactly. I am begging such men to participate but they are
> all “busy” with something else. Again, please see my paper “Revolt of
> the Elites”

Then if they are busy with something else and neglecting the order of
SP then they are not leaders, let them be busy in the pot room,
washing pots, very nice service! We will glorify them every day for
it! Everyone should be engaged according to their nature and
qualification, not according to their ambition and lack of
qualification...you are begging for them to give attention to SP's
instructions- who is the leader here? They are not leaders, you are
the leader, defacto, by qualification. SP said his only qualification
was that he tried to serve the order of his guru, and he also tried to
get his godbrothers to follow it, as orders have to be followed in
cooperation. He was never a leader by decree, he became a leader,
naturally.

I will try very hard to get time today to read your paper- thank you!

> our ...
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[niscala dasi]

why they would accept varnashrama:
1. if the benefits are made excruciatingly obvious to them
2. if they know their duty to the society is simply that work that
they are inclined to do anyway
3. qualification needs to be separated from ambition- I have discussed
this thoroughly in my book "varnashrama, the eight-petalled lotus"-
indeed this is specifically how varnashrama benefits the society-
replacing ambition with qualification. For example, if a person is
naturally caring for others, naturally treats them with the same
concern as family members, he is a defacto ksatriya, and all we have
to do is match the karma (service/work) to the guna (qualification).
In varnashrama, even if a person has all the ambition in the world to
be a ksatriya or brahmana, he cannot be, unless he develops the
qualities. When people take on ksatriya or brahmana roles without the
qualities, just caring for money more than people- or souls- then you
have a horrible corporate business bureaucracy, where leaders are
unapproachable or aloof, where decisions affecting our daily lives are
made by impersonal committees half-way round the world, where position
is awarded as a favour, etc.
4. you mention integrity in 3 and 4. Lack of integrity is not a reason
to avoid VA, it is a reason to introduce it. First, show how we lack
integrity, by examples of how we avoid issues that should arouse our
compassion and involvement with excuses like "I'm not into politics
prabhu" Second, how integrity is integral to self-realization Through
1 and 2, a desire to reform our movement is kindled. Third, show how
VA serves as a vehicle to preserve our integrity, or to give us what
integrity we lack. There are many ways to do this, which I have
covered in the book. One way, is to quote SP as recommending VA to
help us avoid what he called "showbottle spirituality" which is
nothing but lack of integrity. Another is to quote Bhaktivinode
Thakura saying the same thing- VA as a means to avoid anarthas.
5.Lack of healthcare is because we lack people who are trained to see
and feel for others like they do their family members. A ksatriya
takes some tax from the people, which may be like our donations or
collections,but is behooved to deliver them from all distress-
physical, financial and emotional.His specific qualification is that
anyone in distress, he must deliver them. He is not exactly like the
brahmana, who may just urge them to transcend the difficulty. Through
the brahmana and the ksatriya, there is no distress of any kind for
those under their care. This is very clear from books such as the
Mahabharata.
6.The qualified men are not participating because we have no
varnashrama. We silence truth speakers, call those of fine spiritual
discrimination "jnanis" and call soft-hearted people
"sentimentalists". We are currently enacting an antiVA dynamic in
every respect, the proof being that people feel inclined to leave,
look after their own affairs as they know we will never do it, and
Citra devi dasi in New Mayapura, even throws herself in flames so as
not to be a burden.
7. People can live very comfortably in a simple setting- if modern
amenities are an issue, they can arrange solar panels and electric
wiring- not everyone has the same level of renunciation. Actually,
people are stressed in the cities- both mother and father have to work
to pay the bills, and the kids come home from school and go on the
internet unattended, possibly sourcing porn, their minds get polluted,
and all hell breaks loose. Even if they avoid porn, it is an unhealthy
addiction, leading to obesity and depressionl. How much nicer if they
were running around in the sunshine and fresh air?
8. Special training for children should be there, according to their
propensities, in a VA gurukula with qualified teachers.
9. Funds for college. There is a misunderstanding that money plays no
role in VA- wrong! The vaisyas can do either business, or agriculture/
cow protection. If they do business, they should donate an agreed
amount to the temple, as they are getting all facility from it.For
this reason, and many others, farms should not be so isolated from
cities, within an hour or two is best. .
10. Hard work? No it is to reduce hard work, by living simply. And
hard work is pleasurable, anyway, if one enjoys doing it. Give me a
choice of relaxation, or gardening- not just me, many people prefer to
do the hard work of gardening, to sitting on the deck and doing
nothing. Its rewarding, if its your natural propensity. Nothing should
be forced, then it becomes unbearable.