Social work theorising vs Actual VA
Caitanya
could not find any evidence that you need to spend ages talking and
building theoretical models for Varnasrama. I alway took it as a
practical instruction, according to time and people (or limited time
and huge number of followers). Does anyone has a quote from Prabhupada
or sastra that we should engage in "Theorising Social Development" or
"designing" Varnasrama?
DRousse
In my humble opinion most of our "farm projects" have failed for want of a
well-defined ideology. If we just need to 'get out and do it' it should have
been successful long, long ago.
Examples I want to offer are from the two papers that I have posted on the
group site: Money and Varnashrama Culture, and Revolt of the Elite. (They
are also posted on Dandavats).
In Money and Varnashrama Culture I point out that the varnashrama culture of
yore was a labor-intensive culture and as such there was a need for strong
relationships since group survival depended on group participation.
Moreover, the entire culture rested on voluntary acceptance of duty
according to the principles of dharma, as set forth by Manu. Voluntary
because everyone understood that if they followed those principles that they
would go to heaven for a long time, and then attain a higher birth.
In modern culture with a money economy people are "independent" if they have
money (in quotes because it is only the illusion of Independence). Now there
is a big difference between these two cultures. Which one is our modern
varnashrama culture going to be?
In Revolt of the Elites I make the case, from my direct, personal experience
that the qualified men, the ksatriyas and vaisyas, are not coming forward to
participate in our village projects. And from my experience in trying to do
this in different places with less-qualified men, sudra types (again, that
is not a pejorative, simply as statement of fact), is that it cannot be
done. Those kind of people need direction and supervision otherwise you wind
up with a lot of mistakes, waste and failures. And in self-sufficiency
agricultural project, a failure can mean the difference between eating for a
year or not.
This is my answer to Mataji Nilacala also. Our modern so-called community is
where a bunch of people move together in the same area and call themselves a
community. Well if you are each economically independent that can be a
community of sorts. But when you are economically dependent on each other,
that is not going to work unless you have authority based on experience and
ability. Otherwise you wind up with a bunch of squabbling people who want to
have it their way.
So I want to ask a question of Caitanya (because you have not filled in your
profile we know nothing of your experience) -- what is your experience that
you speak from when you say that we do not need a well-defined ideology? Can
you give an example of a successful project that does not have one? Please
read the discussion I have posted between His Holiness Sivarama Swami and
the devotees at New Vrindavana. In that discussion he points out that when
they began he had a written ideology that was five pages long. Now, after
fifteen years their written ideology is over 100 pages. Why? Because
experience shows them that they need it. And I further ask you, how can you
have a culture when the members of that culture do not know what that
culture expects of them?
And from the state of our society today it would seem that many people have
no idea of how to interact as a culture. It's every man for themselves. And
this is not the varnashrama culture that I want to live in.
Chaitanya (Prabhu, Mataji?) I would like to hear your answers to these
questions.
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Prabhupad Das
Karapurnam
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 6:37 PM
To: Varnashrama Culture
Subject: Re: Social work theorising vs Actual VA
Caitanya [Dasa, Dasi?]
In my understanding of things, there is a need for a theoretical
model, or blue print, and a plan, in advance of taking action. That is
how I do things. I served at 6 ISKCON rural projects and, in each one,
directly experienced a distinct lack of "theoretical understanding"
along with an absence of concise short and long range planning, in
addition to faulty leadership and management. When I pointed out
these deficiencies and suggested that the leaders take some formal
training, I was ridiculed and eventually ejected. In each case, I was
told, "Prabhu, we already have Shrila Prabhupadas instructions on
Varnashram and there is no need of further "theory, blue prints and
plans", we just need to be practical and do it. You just need to be
more submissive and follow the leaders". So, now, 30+ years
later....what is the status of Varnashram in ISKCON, after all their
practical spontaneous application and following the leaders? If you
personally don't need a theoretical model, blue print and plan, and
intuitively understand exactly what has to be done, in terms of the
practical application of Shrila Prabhupada's Daivi Varnashram
Teachings, that is fine - for you. The results of ones understandings
and actions are always manifest in the community in which one lives.
But, for me, and others, there is a need for ongoing discussion,
comparison of ideas, progress, challenges, failures and so on, to
refine our theoretical understanding and gradually develop the skills
and experience to make this mission work more effectively in each of
our individual communities.
PDK
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21:35:00
Lalita-sakhi dasi
you think about it, Srila Prabhupada gave us a very practical and
straight-forward instruction to chant Hare Krsna and follow the four
regs, but he spent his life preaching and organizing and managing just
so that we and others could follow those simple instructions; we
weren't in a position to just sit down and remember Krsna twenty-four
hours a day, which in the end is the goal. I think you're right,
Caitanya Prabhu, that we don't have to "design" varnashrama--it is
already naturally existing--but we desperately need to become aware of
how to fit into it. This discussion group seems to me to be a process
of becoming increasingly conscious.
I relate this to my own recent experience: until Ganapati Swami spent
his valuable time preparing information and presenting the plight of
the cows in this world, I was purchasing all our dairy products from
the store and, of course, happily offering milk sweets and more to our
Deities and distributing prasad to our guests. Certainly I had some
awareness of the mistreatment of cows but it was mostly in the back of
my mind and I could think of the benefit to the cows whose milk was
offered to Krsna. There are lots of other rationales, as well, but the
point here is that it took repeated exposure for me to really start
questioning my actions and to begin thinking about what I could
actually do to change a seemingly insurmountable problem. And sure
enough, after much angst, Krsna revealed solutions and we're now able
to show whoever we come in contact with here that it's possible to
protect the cow and have exquisite dairy products. And that's just the
beginning--just one aspect of varnashrama is cow protection, but
without protecting the cows, brahmanas, children, women, and elderly
it's not possible to have any kind of peaceful society. We became
conscious of our role in protecting cows through repeated exposure to
a particular reality.
I think the same holds true for discussions on varnashrama, which is
so broad that it emcompasses all aspects of society. I imagine it will
take tons of exposure on many levels to wake enough of us up to
meaningful action. Exploring the devotees varying insights into
problems and possible solutions will help us understand how to apply
ourselves to the healthy reality of varnashrama. When we make an
intense enough endeavor, perhaps Krsna will give us the intelligence
for proper action and the chance to render some service toward
fulfilling Srila Prabhupada's plan for varnashrama.
Mukunda Das Gauthier
Another reality at work here is that we all have a different way to
respond to a situation. One primarily influenced by goodness feels
productive by discussing and analysing, one in passion will want to
get into action quickly, etc. So, everyone of us want to be vigilant
as to what we need to remain enthusiastic in Krsna's service and
choose to act accordingly. For example, I can sit here all day reading
all of your wonderful posts. But that doesn't work for me. I also like
to pick up my next door neighbor's mule manure in preparation for my
upcoming garden. Or meet some devotee friends about how we will
cooperate on an upcoming cob project. Then, with these activities
behind my belt, partaking in this wonderful exchange of realizations
make sense to me. It fuels and deepen my reflections as I get into
action the next day. The practical discussions and the practical
activities complement one another. According to one's nature, one
needs to know what proportion of which need to be there in one's life
while accepting that other people's needs may be different.
Mukunda das
On Oct 5, 1:32 pm, Lalita-sakhi dasi <sakhi.macmil...@gmail.com>
wrote:
niscala dasi
statement of mission, a common goal established and written down in
words for constant reference. Other details such as how to control
cabbage moth, can be worked out later. the statement of mission should
accomplish our goal of attracting people to VA communities for without
people, it won't work! So, to provide a caring environment where
evreyone is valued and appreciated, where service to Krsna is
accomplished by service to other vaisnavas, regardless of their
bodfily limitations, such as age or ability, where there is sub-zero
exploitation- a dynamic based on love. SP made it excruciatingly clear
that the caste system was about exploitation, and VA about loving
cooperation. That is the only or primary difference. It is about
engaging in what one enjoys doing, rather than being forced to do
service under threat of "not pleasing one's guru" unless one submits
to what someone else wants you to do. Real guru is pleased by having
disciples engaged according to their nature, indeed in one purport SP
states this as the duty of the guru- to find the disciples
psychophysical propensities, or help him find them, and engage him
accordingly in Krsna's service. Not to force him to submit to
something unnatural. For example, some people may be shy to approach
people on the street- it is a constant torture- but will happily
preach all day in other ways. So after experiencing the artificial
dynamic of what SP called "showbottle spirituality" many devotees will
be attracted to serving Krsna in ways more suited to their nature. It
might be simply that the want to be a loving mother or father to the
younger devotees- that is ksatriya, or it may be to "open eyes" that
is brahmana, or it may be to convert fruit into jam- anything- some
people are practical (sudras) some financial (vaisyas) some
psychological and emotional (ksatriyas) and some are spiritual wise
(brahmanas). Some may want to do a bit of all varnas- thats OK so long
as it is not to shirk away from necessary duties due to whim or
unwillingnesss to face a difficult situation. It is not that VA is
about pigeon-holing people- "you are a sudra, you can do nothing else
but labour"- that is unthinkably horrible, and the vision of that
awful time inspired me to write my book. It must be stressed that
devotees will be better cared for and more happily engaged, then they
will want to join a VA community.
That is the answer to your problem Dhanesvara- how to attract more
than sudras- make it visionary, revolutionary, inspirational, not
about cabbage moth problems, or giving up this and that to live in a
wood hut. Does that make sense to you? If not, then lets discuss some
more...
I am in total agreement with you, Lalita Sakhi- VA is more than about
cow protection, it is about making everyone happy and joyful, and
secure -not through money- but by being surrounded by people who care
- care for you now and in the future when you are old, and can't
contribute. Let us never have another Citra Dasi incident ever again!
It should have woken us all up! In these moths after her tragic death
by suicide, let us take advantage of devotees concern for the elderly
to stress that VA is about exactly that- sub-zero exploitation.
Serving the Lord through His devotees, big, small, aged or young...
On Oct 6, 8:58 am, Mukunda Das Gauthier <coachmarc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Greg Jay
I agree that Varnashram is actually very simple to understand, at least in it's basics.
ISKCON already has an Ashram system which is not exactly what is found in sastra but which works pretty well. The only problem with it is that people do not take up the different Ashrams according to their specific Varnas as is done in a proper Varnashram system, but instead Ashrams are guessed at without reference to Varna.
So the very first thing to overcome in ISKCON is the lack of a Varna system. And this is because most people do not understand how Varnas are determined.
Here is one person's idea of how to determine Varnas. Please let me know what you think of this idea. If this formula is followed then why can't it also be followed for adults also?
By a test of practical psychology and by examination of the birth horoscope of the child, with special reference to his birthright, sect and class arrangement, a student from the very beginning shall be given the education of a brahmana, of a kshatriya, of a vaisya or of a sudra, as may be the case, according to his quality and destined work. It is, however, possible to make a change of this general rule under special cases.
Comments?
ys
GKD
Dhanesvara Das
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I
agree that determining varna is relatively easy, although the method
is different for a child than an adult. In addition to the method you
give below, an experienced person should observe the children at their
play over the course of a year or two. Those who are leaders are
always so, even as children, and their actions are so transparent it
is not too difficult to see who is who, more or less. I say more or
less because these days we are mostly mixed varna, having the
inclinations of several varnas.
Determining varna for adults is a bit more difficult because we are
not as transparent as children, hiding our own nature even from our
very selves. The test that I use is simply asking “what do you like to
do?” The emphasis must be on what we like, what gives us joy just to
do it. If it gives us joy it must be according to our guna and karma.
Now perhaps I am the only one on this conference who thinks that
varnashrama culture is not so easy to understand, and given our
cultural conditioning even more different to practice. Let me give you
an example why.
We may know our ashrama and our varna, but culture means
relationships. What are the relationships between these varnas and how
is the relationship manifest? Briefly put, the higher orders have
responsibility to the lower orders. How much responsibility? As far as
I am able to determine, like a father to a child; in other words, full
responsibility to see to the development of the praja.
For example, the vaisyas are those who produce wealth, and it is they
who support the entire social body. In the modern society the vaisya
(aka Businessman) is no longer concerned with the welfare of those who
work for them. The labor of the employee is purchased as is any other
commodity, and the extent of the obligation is simply to pay as
agreed. If this is not sufficient for the employee to cover his
minimal needs that is the employees problem, not the employers. This
is very different from what is expected in our modern culture, and the
relationships that we know.
Indeed, I have heard devotee businessmen argue that they want to pay
their employees as little as possible. There is one Indian businessman
who make large donations to various temples and preaching projects,
and presents himself as a big, generous man, but he does not pay his
employees (many of whom are devotees) enough to live ($7 /hr.).
Observing these kinds of dealings I see a *huge* difference between
the what we know in our modern culture and the real varnashrama. This
difference is that our modern methods are asuric varnashrama.
We may say that varnashrama is very simple conceptually, but there are
many more things to consider than the divisions of labor. Let me ask
the ‘assembled’ devotees to consider other aspects of our modern
culture and to write about how they would be implemented in the
varnashrama culture. Economics is the one that I focus on.
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das
Caitanya
The question was "Does anyone has a quote from Prabhupada
a blueprint for a social development, or is it not obvious that sastra
IS (dharma-sastra) the blueprint?
On Oct 5, 4:36 pm, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam
<shri.apurvadapari...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Caitanya [Dasa
Caitanya
> profile we know nothing of your experience) -- what is your experience that
> you speak from when you say that we do not need a well-defined ideology?
have seen successful communities growing and defining their ideology
as they grow. In practical terms local councils often do have large
papers, and they have to, otherwise they will not get funding, but
they are in most cases rather a lot of paperwork. I resent it.
There are examples of projects that are traditional, not "created".
These projects, such as traditional village, do not have an "ideology"
prior to it's creation. It is just a historical entity. If you want to
make something work, make it work first and then write up a theory, to
use it as a tool to distribute the model.
When Prabhupada was instructing us on VA, he said "I will personally
come and teach you how to live off the land", he did not write a book
on VA. Did he? His instructions were all practical and personal.
> you give an example of a successful project that does not have one?
statement (any one has a 6000 old mission statement anywhere in the
archives?), in fact brahmanas did not have to write down anything, the
system was "created". Can you show a single modern successful project
that is not based on single guru/founder or a single leader model,
where the writing up of "ideology" ever worked and resulted in actual
varnasrama and not just a guru-serving community?
> they began he had a written ideology that was five pages long. Now, after
> fifteen years their written ideology is over 100 pages. Why? Because
> experience shows them that they need it. And I further ask you, how can you
> have a culture when the members of that culture do not know what that
> culture expects of them?
rather different things. Usually it pins down on authority of
brahmanas and gurus to "project" what is "expected" and yes they can
write it down mainly for themselves just to be consistent. Not that
you have to write it down before you know what it is.
> And from the state of our society today it would seem that many people have
> no idea of how to interact as a culture. It's every man for themselves.
structure is likely to be labeled a sectarian leader, but we do not
worry about it. Provided we actually hold authority over large enough
number of people to start with.
ysccd
Caitanya
problems and possible solutions will help us understand how to apply
ourselves to the healthy reality of varnashrama."
be very interested if a particular problem or a particular solution to
a practical situation was discussed, after a community is functioning
(and we do not expect miracles). But the truth is, any problems that
come up are not discussed. People are drooping our from that same
Hungarian farm. There is no transparency on what is going on there, in
fact you are not even allowed to come near the dwellings of resident
grihasthas. If instead of writing mission statements we actually
interviewed the former residents, neighbors and current residents, you
would learn more than just theoretically bringing up abstract topics.
Varnasrama is not that kind of topic you can talk and expect it to
materialize.
Caitanya
"transcendental", created by Krishna Himself, the people who make sure
it is stable are in goodness (and you do not need many of them, in
fact better to have one single goodness person per community). But any
creation is certainly in passion. Now instead of talking you better be
praying that this creative imputes will not bewilder your-good-self.
But that is off the chart, just by talking about creating, you will
not start creating.
Caitanya
> I agree that Varnashram is actually very simple to understand, at least in
> it's basics.
> ISKCON already has an Ashram system which is not exactly what is found in
> sastra but which works pretty well.
> people do not take up the different Ashrams according to their specific
> Varnas as is done in a proper Varnashram system, but instead Ashrams are
> guessed at without reference to Varna.
used as a preaching tool to impress Indians.
> Here is one person's idea of how to determine Varnas. Please let me know
> what you think of this idea. If this formula is followed then why can't it
> also be followed for adults also?
the authority to do such a thing.
> By a test of practical psychology and by examination of the birth
> horoscope of the child, with special reference to his birthright, sect and
> class arrangement, a student from the very beginning shall be given the
> education of a brahmana, of a kshatriya, of a vaisya or of a sudra, as may
> be the case, according to his quality and destined work. It is, however,
> possible to make a change of this general rule under special cases.
> Comments?
niscala dasi
If instead of writing mission statements we actually
> interviewed the former residents, neighbors and current residents, you
> would learn more than just theoretically bringing up abstract topics.
writing up an ideology when you dont even know the problems? It will
then be based on impersonalism, which they are trying to escape.
>>>Varnasrama is not that kind of topic you can talk and expect it to
> materialize.
like a guru is not guru by proclamation or vote, a ksatriya or
brahmana is a ksatriya or brahmana the instant that he develops the
required qualities within himself. Then others will see him as such
and look up to him- "he cared enough to interview me, he did not judge
or label me as "blooped", so I respect him." That is natural. That is
leadership by default.
niscala dasi
> > horoscope of the child, with special reference to his birthright, sect and
> > class arrangement, a student from the very beginning shall be given the
> > education of a brahmana, of a kshatriya, of a vaisya or of a sudra, as may
> > be the case, according to his quality and destined work. It is, however,
> > possible to make a change of this general rule under special cases.
> > Comments?
what do you mean by class and sect? Sounds and smells like the caste
system to me- qualification by birth. Practical psychology is a better
suggestion- Dhanesvara's idea is very nice- just ask what they like to
do. But if they like to lead, they must have the natural qualities as
well as the trained qualifications.
Greg Jay
It seems that you disagree that anything should be said, and call for action. However I would consider that as in the mode of passion. Considered action is what we need.
Actually I would suggest that Varnashram already exists we simply have to recognize it and apply to it standards from sastra. It is not that there are no members of Varnas these days. Everyone is acting in a Varna whether they know it or not. It is simply a matter of showing people where they stand.
For example. We know that some people are not able to maintain sannyasa. They have problems. Do we then as a society allow them to continue as sannyasis? No, we should not.
The first stage is simply honesty. Know your position in Varnashram and accept it. Or if you wish another position then prove that you belong to it by actually living that way.
But first before this can be done there needs to be an understanding of the 10 different positions (mixtures of Varna and Ashram) and what the difference work and responsibilities each has. Then those persons who are working in such positions must begin to assume the responsibilities and powers of those positions or give up those positions. Simple, but some basic outlining of the positions and their responsibilities must be delineated. I disagree that everyone in a Varnashram society will following the regulative principles and chanting 16 rounds. Most people in any society are sudras and sudras are not responsible to follow any rules. They may want to follow or not that is their position. As long as they follow their varnashram dharma they make some advancement each lifetime. If they also become Vaisnavas that is a bonus for anyone.
On Oct 6, 2010, at 12:19 AM, Caitanya wrote:
> We take Varna as a role, same way as Ashrama (at least sannyasa) was
> used as a preaching tool to impress Indians.
Yes, in the beginning it may be a little artificial. But if we really understand the roles then people will naturally gravitate towards each position. The key is that each position is different enough so that people know where they belong. For example most are sudras. Anyone who works for another is a sudra. Any person who is a businessman and his own boss, generates his own money is a Vaishya. Ksatriyas are forbidden from being employees also. They are administrators, land owners, managers of people. Brahmins also should not be employees. But independently thoughtful intellectuals who study, teach, etc.
>> Here is one person's idea of how to determine Varnas. Please let me know
>> what you think of this idea. If this formula is followed then why can't it
>> also be followed for adults also?
> The only problem is -- who WANTS to do it. In other words, who holds
> the authority to do such a thing.
There has to be incentives for each Varna (and ashram but mainly Varna). Each Varnas has a preferred goal of life or purushartha. Although a Dhanesvara says we all may exhibit mixed gunas and karmas we never the less all have a major theme in our lives. The pursuit of a particular purushartha according to the mode of nature that is predominant.
The modes and purusharthas are listed below along with the Varna for which this is a predominant theme:
sattva = moksha = brahmin
rajas = dharma = ksatriya
rajas/tamas = artha = vaishya
tamas = kama = sudra
Those who's lives are predominantly aimed at their own sense enjoyment are sudras (workers) and this is the greatest number in society. Those who's lives are predominantly aimed at making money or wealth are vaishyas (entrepreneurs) and their numbers (for any given society) are less than the sudras. Those who's lives are predominantly aimed at dharma or justice, truthfulness, fair play, order are ksatriyas (managers/politicians) and their numbers (for any given society) are much less than the vaishyas. Those who's lives are predominantly aimed at moksha or liberation are brahmins (intellectuals) and their numbers (for any given society) are much less than the ksatriyas.
>> By a test of practical psychology and by examination of the birth
>> horoscope of the child, with special reference to his birthright, sect and
>> class arrangement, a student from the very beginning shall be given the
>> education of a brahmana, of a kshatriya, of a vaisya or of a sudra, as may
>> be the case, according to his quality and destined work. It is, however,
>> possible to make a change of this general rule under special cases.
>> Comments?
> No comments. Actions?
Why no comments? This was written by the way by Srila Prabhupada.
ys
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 2:50 AM, niscala dasi wrote:
> By a test of practical psychology and by examination of the birth
>>> horoscope of the child, with special reference to his birthright, sect and
>>> class arrangement, a student from the very beginning shall be given the
>>> education of a brahmana, of a kshatriya, of a vaisya or of a sudra, as may
>>> be the case, according to his quality and destined work. It is, however,
>>> possible to make a change of this general rule under special cases.
>>> Comments?
>
> Horoscopes are mostly inaccurate due to unqualified astrologers, and
> what do you mean by class and sect? Sounds and smells like the caste
> system to me- qualification by birth. Practical psychology is a better
> suggestion- Dhanesvara's idea is very nice- just ask what they like to
> do. But if they like to lead, they must have the natural qualities as
> well as the trained qualifications.
The quote is from Srila Prabhupada's essay Gitanagari.
Perhaps now you know the author you think that it is a better idea?
GKD
Caitanya
>Perhaps now you know the author you think that it is a better idea?
than Srila Prabhupada had, let them try it. But yes instead of
thousands of email about there should be thousands of email in the
process of creating this.
I just do not see use of talking so much. It all seems so impractical.
I was discussing VA some 15 years back, and we are still talking.
Yes, mode of passion is the mode for creating things, but it has to be
guided by those in the mode of goodness. That how it works, or does
not, and than we will be only talking for a very very very long time.
Greg Jay
Caitanya ji, you are creating a lot of words trying to argue not to spend time writing and discussing.
Is this not against your purpose?
When you consider it not useful to discuss about Varnashram directly, how can you consider discussing, whether or not to discuss it, useful?
Discussing whether or not to have a discussion on Varnashram actually moves the discussion farther AWAY from any conclusions. Is that what you want?
I believe that Dhanesvara and the others devotees participating in these discussions all do so because they see some value in discussing the subject.
If you do not then why participate in a discussion forum at all?
I agree with you that VA is simple.
Most devotees are, in my opinion, already acting according to their varnas. Most people in any society are sudras who work for others.
Similarly most devotees in ISKCON are Vaisnava workers (or sudras). This is not a offensive designation but a glorious one.
Since you are in favor of action, might I inquire what Varna and Ashram you belong to and why you think you belong to that Varna and Ashram?
Anyone else who wants to declare their Varna and Ashram and the reasons they think they belong to those Varnas and Ashrams are also welcome to do so.
I will go first. I work as an independent contractor Realtor, this means I do not work for a boss but basically just advise people on homes to buy or to sell. I also teach others sastras and pujas and I perform complex pujas for others as well. I have installed many, many deities all over the ISKCON World. Daily I receive and answer many enquiries from devotees on deity worship, rituals and philosophy. I have studied these subjects in India for many years including studying Sanskrit, Pancaratra, and recently completing a BA in Vaisnavism from Madras University. I ran a Microfilm project for the Smithsonian Institution in the 1980's and preserved millions of pages of Vaisnava literature and manuscripts in India. I am married.
From the looks of it I would suggest that since I consider myself intellectually qualified and independent of working under others. Performing the duties of yajana (doing sacrifices and pujas), yaajana (teaching others these things), pathana (studying sastras), paathana (teaching these to others), dana (giving in charity) and pratigraha (accepting some charity) then I would suggest that I am a Brahmin. Since I am married I am a Grhastha. Thus I would suggest that I am a Brahmin Grhastha.
Once people declare their Varnas and Ashrams and their reasons for why they think they belong to those, then we can begin to understand if they have any REAL understanding of the meanings of Varna and Ashram. This is the first practical step.
Next step is how the different combinations of Varna and Ashram relate to each other. But first let's know how many of each type of person we have in our group or in any particular society be it a city or village, temple or farm or whatever.
If we have an ISKCON community and everyone in that community thinks he is a brahmin then who will do the work of the ksatriya, vaishya or sudras? This type of community is lopsided. Each and every society has all these different varnas it is just that we at present are not recognizing it.
So the first step is for people to declare their varnas and ashrams and their reasons why they think they belong to them. If someone else disagrees then we can discuss it. Then we will all be on the same page as far as all understanding the meaning of Varna. Then we have to understand the rights and responsibilities of each.
sincerely
GKD
niscala dasi
circumstance. Clearly this one is very dependent on all three- a
qualified astrologer being absolutely essential. And knowing it comes
from SP we can be certain, in light of his many other instructions on
the matter, that by the word "sect" he did not mean by birth. I think
the words "practical psychology" is more universally applicable, in
light of his other instructions.
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam wrote:
> BUT...........FIRST, there needs to be a Daivi Varnashram Village for
> the new born and adults to participate in.
Actually I completely disagree. Dvaraka was a Varnashram Society and it was a city. So there is no reason why Varnashram principles cannot be practiced by everyone in and where they live and work right here and now.
This is one of the problems that has been identified. That devotees in general do not want to become farmers. Neither are most of them qualified to be farmers.
This misconception I call FARMASHRAM. It basically is the idea by some devotees that Varnashram MUST ONLY be practiced in an agrarian community.
Just because people build a self sufficient farming community does not mean that it is a Varnashram community, and just because a community is not a self sufficient farming community does not mean it cannot be a Varnashram community.
Whether devotees live in an agrarian community or an urban community they will have to interact with the dominant non-devotee society. Thus unless and until you are ready to have a Krsna conscious country you are not going to be cut off completely from the dominant non-devotee society. (Even if there were a Krsna conscious country you would still have to interact with the outside non-devotee community of nations)
Naturally Vaisnava sudras (workers) should be encouraged to work for Vaisnava brahmins, ksatriyas and vaishyas (ie dvijas/leaders). But whether the Vaisnava dvijas (leaders) live in the city or country makes no difference.
If Vaisnava dvijas (leaders) can make jobs for Vaisnava sudras (workers) in ways that are not agrarian this is also Varnashram.
If Vaisnava sudras (workers) must work for non-Vaisnava leaders this is not ideal. It is second class but still Varnashram. What is also second class would be for Vaisnava sudras (workers) to work on a self sufficient farm for non-Vaisnavas. So it is not so much the venue that is important but the quality of the participants.
What is needed more than anything is entrepreneurial spirit amongst Vaisnava dvijas (leaders) to set up fair employment for Vaisnava sudras (workers) so they do not have to work for non-Vaisnavas.
An example for you. In Honolulu I have a Vaisnava Vaishya friend who has a fresh juice business. His fresh juice factory provides juice for many hotels and supermarkets in the state of Hawaii. It is called Govinda's juice and it is even prasadam. In his factory he employs some devotee and some non-devotee workers ) sudras. This is a non agrarian example of Varnashram.
So Varnashram simply means engaging people according to their propensity. My friend is a Vaisnava Vaishya and there are many more Vaisnava Vaishyas in and around ISKCON. Their part is to make businesses and employ Vaisnava and if necessary non-Vaisnava workers. To develop Varnashram we simply have to encourage Vaisnava leaders to employ all the Vaisnava workers and then if the businesses grow whether they be farming or other businesses they can also employ non-Vaisnava workers. But to start with the Vaisnava leaders have to create and foster the creation of jobs for Vaisnava workers. If you cannot create your own independent job nor create work for others then you are not a leader but a worker. This is the first distinction people have to realize.
> No one can exist in a Cyber
> Village contained within a Google Group!
Actually I completely disagree with this also. I have a prospectus I made years ago if anyone is interested for setting up of a Cyber Varnashram community in Second Life. There are some other devotees who are thinking also along these lines after hearing of my idea. My idea would be set up a virtual Varnashram society and then allow devotees to role play in it. This not only would be useful from the research point of view without spending a lot of money on actual real estate and people but it could also let people understand exactly what the duties and responsibilities of different Varnas are. Then when they decide to adopt a particular Varna in real life they know exactly what they are getting into.
ys
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam wrote:
> I am in the Grihastha Ashram
It is relatively easy to know if someone is a grhastha. If he is married he is a grhastha. But grhastha is also more than that. Someone may be single by modern standards but is neither a celibate student, not a retired celibate, nor a renounced celibate. Therefore such persons are also by nature lumped in with the grhastha.
> I took Gayatri Diksha from Shrila Prabhupad in 1975 and, at that time,
> was considered a Brahman by the devotees in the Temple.
Simply receiving and chanting gayatri does not make one a brahmin. Pancaratric Vaisnava diksha misnamed as Brahmin initiation in ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math is an amalgamation made by Bhaktisiddhanta to prove a point. He wanted to prove that Vaisnavas were as good as brahmins. However in order to have Varnashram we have to separate out the two parts of this ceremony again as they are found in sastra. Upananayam samskara is the ceremony where the first line of gayatri (in ISKCON terms) is given to only dvija boys at the age of seven. Pancaratric Vaisnava diksha is a ceremony where both males and females receive Vaisnava mantras (the other 6 lines of gayatri in ISKCON terms). This second thing is offered to everyone in a Vaisnava Varnashram society, but the first is not. The first samskara is only offered to male dvijas. Introducing Varnashram principles means distinction. Without making such distinctions there is no Varnashram.
> When in ISKCON
> I was head pujari, head cook, treasurer, skp leader, temple president,
> legal director, FATE manager, Bakery manager, etc. However, over the
> years, my primary interest evolved into Community Design and
> Development. I have a computer library full of materials on Political
> Science, International Affairs, Jurisprudence, City Planning,
> Leadership, Management, Counseling and related topics. At one point,
> while living at New Dvaraka, the community offered to send me to law
> school, which I declined. I felt more comfortable studying about how
> human civilization is structured and how the various parts fit
> together. My interest also extends to a general understanding of what
> the duties are for each Varna and Ashram. When my chart was done by
> two separate devotees, the indication was Kshatriya with strong
> inclinations toward Brahman. Both those charts indicated prowess in
> designing and building communities, working with land, and acting as
> teacher, adviser or leader. The teaching and advising indications were
> stronger than the leadership. Although I have studied a smattering of
> sanskrit, astrology and deity worship, my preference in action is to
> research, write, develop course materials and teach others how to find
> their identity and apply it in a community setting. In each and every
> dream I have had of Shrila Prabhupad, he is instructing me in Daivi
> Varnashram. Considering all that, I would say I am more a Kshatriya
> than anything else.
I accept your self analysis. It sounds correct to me. You certainly sound like a leader or dvija. May I ask how you make a living?
> For this reason, I find myself getting frustrated when discussion
> remains fixed on rehashing the same materials or introducing more to
> split down to the infinitesimal, in what I consider endless
> intellectual processing without a conclusion. I have the ability to
> comprehend the big picture in fairly minute detail, but find no
> fulfillment until those big picture concepts are transposed into a
> working model that can then be built in real life.
Sounds good. So may I ask what plans you have for providing jobs for Vaisnava workers? The job of Vaisnava dvijas is to do this or at least be self employed, but not to work for others. Would you not agree?
> Thank you for bringing this up. It is very important that each of us
> has some idea of what our Varna is, so we can gradually find out what
> our most productive service would be, were we to become members of a
> functioning Village.
I agree. Though I do not intend on becoming a member of a Village. I don't see that as a necessity to performing my duties under Varnashram. I have two homes. One in the Vaisnava city of Srirangam India. The oldest and largest Vaisnava community in the world. The other home is in the West on the resort Island of Maui in Hawaii where whatever Vaisnavas there are all have different jobs in the larger community according to our guna and karma.
sincerely
Gaura Keshava das
PS I agree with you that mostly it will be intellectuals who theorize about Varnashram. Other Vaisnava leaders will take other approaches. I expect Vaisnava Vaishyas to create businesses for Vaisnava workers. Vaisnava Ksatriyas are much more likely to create communities. Their should buy land and invite other Vaisnavas to work with them. Organize them and create communities.
Greg Jay
I take your reply to be:
I accept Srila Prabhupada's ideas BUT.
This is the same attitude that many have.
May I ask what Varna and Ashram you belong to according to your own analysis and why you think so.
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 2:01 PM, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam wrote:
> I understand that devotees will have different conceptions of how to
> apply Daivi Varnashram principles and practices, just as they have a
> natural proclivity in the Varna and Ashram divisions. From that, some
> will want to live in a Village and others will want the City. When I
> promote Village life, I do so as my natural tendency to avoid Cities,
> where I find it more difficult to remain Krishna conscious. This does
> not mean that all Daivi Varnashram be undertaken in a Village.
> However, a Village is not necessarily a place where everyone is
> "farming".
I agree completely.
> The villagers are engaged in Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya
> and Shudra occupations to provide what everyone needs in terms of
> their psycho-physical needs.
Yes, but the smaller the group of people the less specialization is available.
For example how many Brahmins, Ksatriyas and Vaishyas can be in a small village of say 100 or even 1000 people?
> When I say Daivi Varnashram Village, I
> mean an aggregate of enough people so the Varnas and Ashrams are all
> populated to the degree necessary.
Why would you need more than one Ksatriya in a small village?
Why would you need more than one Brahmin for the village temple?
A few Vaishyas who with the Ksatriya own the land and the rest sudras.
Did you know that the percentage of population in India of Brahmins is around 2%.
If we take this to be typical then you are looking at one or two families of Brahmins in a small village.
The same goes for other divjas.
> We already have enough experience
> of what happens when devotees move to the country and attempt to set
> up a Village that has only farming as the main occupation. They end up
> getting jobs in the City and commuting, or, they end up in bitter
> isolation, overwhelmed by the burden of chores and constantly worrying
> about enough money to pay the bills, etc.
I'm glad you understand this phenomena.
> My efforts to develop Daivi Varnashram Villages are based on this, and
> similar quotes from Shrila Prabhupad, encouraging devotees to focus
> their attention on Village development. Below, Shrila Prabhupad states
> that we will not abandon the City, but, in my understanding, and his
> example in early ISKCON, he meant that to be Krishna consciousness
> undertaken in an Urban Monastery.
But that Urban monastery is going to have an Urban congregation as well. This is well established in ISKCON today. Those people have jobs in the city and will not relocate to the country except in rare cases.
> In any case, a devotee is free to
> choose whatever venue of service is found to be most conducive to
> actual progress through the nine stages of spiritual development. I am
> not personally going to live in a modern City, nor do I encourage
> those I teach to do so. My program is Varnashram Village development
> and, in the City, the Urban Monastery.
In the city if you only have a monastery then you will only be able to have brahmacharis and maybe a sannyasi. Monasteries only allow for celibate monks to live. As such your city plan does not allow for the majority of city dwellers to be part of a Varnashram system. Your ideas are therefore good but incomplete.
> "That is explained by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu when he was talking with
> Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, that the Vedic principle is to revive or to
> remind our relationship with Krsna. In the Bhagavad-gita also Krsna
> says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15], the real purpose
> of Vedic knowledge is to come to the understanding of Krsna
> consciousness. So this Krsna consciousness movement is trying to
> revive the original, constitutional position. So one of them, in Krsna
> consciousness movement, is village organization, as you are trying
> here.
>
> Krsna, in His natural life, is a village boy in Vrndavana. Vrndavana
> is a village. There is no factory, there is no motor-car, there are no
> big, big sky-scraper buildings; it is village. That Krsna likes. In
> the sastra it is said, vrndavanam parityajya, sa kvacin naiva gacchati
> [From Srila Rupa Gosvami, Laghu-bhagavatamrta 1.5.461: "...Krsna
> manifests His pastimes in the cities of Mathura and Dvaraka, but Krsna
> the son of Nanda Maharaja never at any time leaves Vrndavana.
>
> Krsna is so fond of that Vrndavana village life, with His cowherd boys
> and cowherd girls, His gopis, Mother Yasoda, Father Nanda, and
> Upananda, uncles, and big family, the cows and the calves, the trees,
> the Yamuna River. He is satisfied in that life. So at least those who
> are Krsna conscious, they should be satisfied with simple life in the
> village. That is part of Krsna consciousness. But it does not mean
> that we shall avoid city life or town life, not. Everything, every
> place is Krsna's place. Everywhere there should be Krsna
> consciousness.
>
> But if we keep ourself within the village and properly organize as
> Krsna personally showed us the example, He was personally taking care
> of cows, calves. When He was a child, He was taking care of the
> calves. When He was grown up, He was taking care of the cows, although
> He was a very rich man's son; Nanda Maharaj was the village king. But
> still, He was working hard the whole day, going in the morning to the
> pasturing ground and coming back in the evening. Then He used to take
> His bath, change dress, and immediately go to sleep. This was Krsna's
> pastime. So we should follow His footprints. What is that verse?
>
> asraddadhanah purusa
> dharmasyasya parantapa
> aprapya mam nivartante
> mrtyu-samsara-vartmani
>
> "Those who are not faithful in this devotional service cannot attain
> Me, O conqueror of enemies. Therefore they return to the path of birth
> and death in this material world."
> [Bg. 9.3]
> So whatever Krsna has taught by His personal life, by His teaching, to
> follow that is Krsna consciousness."
>
> [New Vrindavana date unknown]
>
> There may be some merit to the idea of a Cyber Daivi Varnashram
> Village, but, in reality, no one can live there. They may spend time
> there, learning about Varnashram and deriving some mental and
> emotional stimulation, but, in reality, they need to work, eat, sleep,
> travel, reproduce and parent in the real world.
I agree. It is a teaching tool only. Cheaper by far than trial and error of buying a farm and spending money on trying to make a real Varnashram village without working out many of the bugs.
> In my understanding,
> Cyber Daivi Varnashram is an excellent medium for distance cooperation
> on building a conceptual model and distributing it globally. But, in
> the final stage, the model will be constructed in the real world so
> people can actually go and live in it.
I exactly agree with you.
But I think first we need the model, then we do something in the real world.
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 2:39 PM, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam wrote:
> PAMHO AGTSP Gaura Keshava Das
>
>>> I am in the Grihastha Ashram
>
> As part of my Varnashram research and development, I am developing a
> code of behavior and character development for the Grihastha Asrham. I
> agree that being married is not all there is to Grihastha life. it
> also includes parenting, marital relationships, ashram maintenance,
> spiritual evolution, interaction with other ashrams, etc, etc.
These are very good ideas. I would suggest to you that not all grhasthas act the same. Since there are four Varnas all of whom can take to the grhastha ashram there will be differences in the way they live.
Re: Gayatri, initiation et al
> I understand what you are presenting here, but, I think its further
> analysis would be best undertaken elsewhere, since most ISKCON
> devotees are not so clear on the subtle and, in some conceptions,
> controversial origins of Gaudiya Vaishnavism as conceived and
> presented by Shrila Bhaktivinode and Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta. As soon
> as something that appears different or controversial is presented
> without extensive explanation, most devotees immediately get confused.
Exactly why Varnashram is also misunderstood. Yet Bhaktivinode in his Caitanya Siksamrta says clearly that the FIRST step towards re-institute Varnashram is to reintroduce the samskaras. Upanayanam is a very important samskara. One becomes a Dvija by it. There is no Upanayanam in ISKCON. It has been merged into Vaisnava diksha. Thus I contend that it must be again separated from Vaisnava diksha or you cannot have Varnas. For if everyone takes a combination Upanayanam/Vaisnava diksha then everyone becomes (or thinks they have become) a dvija. And this is one of the biggest mistakes devotees have about Varnashram. Most ISKCON devotees believe erroneously that they have all become Brahmins simply by taking Vaisnava diksha. When the Lord clearly says that one's Varna is from guna and karma NOT DIKSHA. So I disagree with you. This is a very important thing to teach devotees.
Sounds like you have a good solid financial basis and leadership skill set.
Your entrepreneurial ideas also sound excellent.
ys
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 3:42 PM, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam wrote:
> I read somewhere that the general ratio in the Varnas is 1 Brahman 10
> Kshatriya 100 Vaishya 1000 Shudra. 2% Brahmans sounds reasonable. When
> it comes to Daivi Varnashram Village development we are in 100%
> uncharted territory.
These ratios are natural. I do not see that they can change dramatically and still be a Varnashram society.
Could you imagine a society where most of the people are Brahmins? Or Ksatriya? Or even Vaishyas? Who would do all the work?
The way that all societies naturally evolve is that when they are small there is little specialization and everyone does the needful. That means everyone is basically a sudra or worker. When the small group evolves the need for one or more specialized workers that then happens, then one or more Vaishyas will manifest, and a Ksatriya to manage and a Brahmin to advise and teach. ISKCON has so much difficulty with the evolution of anything like Varnashram because they start from the idea that everyone is a Brahmin. Everyone is equal or at least has an equal chance. We have to go back to the natural way of evolution. Start with workers who do every task. Then when the need for specialization and organization occurs due to increased numbers you can have other castes. Again I would suggest that the continued fiction that taking Vaisnava diksha makes everyone a Brahmin must be stopped and preached against. Becoming a Vaisnava no doubt is greater than becoming an ordinary Brahmin, however it does not actually make one a Brahmin in terms of guna and karma. We must understand the difference.
I don't think that it is useful to go back to the model of an Urban center with all four ashrams living in it. You can't do this and call it a monastery or Varnashram. Grhastha means grha. Separate living quarters. The sooner we have different standards for different Varnas and Ashrams the better. The problem with modern ISKCON is that practically everyone lives according to the same standards. Thus sannyasins have private houses, cars, and bank accounts just like grhasthas. Brahmacharis don't actually spend their time studying, etc. If you want people to follow the proper standards for ashrams they first have to understand the Varna system upon which the ashram system is based. Most people are workers (sudras) for which there is no brahmachari, vanaprastha or sannyasi life.
> We have no statistics regarding how Village
> participants will fall naturally into specific Varnas and Asrhams.
Sure we do. Plenty in India and in history. To ignore these is simple denial.
> The ratios can only be determined over time.
I contend that if you have a society that is lopsided in these ratios it cannot sustain itself.
Just as if a person has a huge head his legs, stomach and arms cannot hold it up.
Similarly all the limbs of the body are in a particular proportion in a healthy person.
There might be slight differences but in general the parts of a society must also be in proportion otherwise there will be problems.
The sastra tells us that when the Earth was overburdened by too many Ksatriyas the Lord had to come and kill them as Parasurama.
In English we say "Too many chiefs and not enough indians."
In Bengali they say "Too many sannyasis spoil the sacrifice."
> Nor do we know how big a
> Village will grow over time.
That is another thing. But no matter how large a society grows the proportion of the Varnas will be very similar. It is not that in a large society there are more Brahmins than Sudras. No, there are always more Sudras than Brahmins.
> In the "raw pioneer stage" all
> individuals will have to do whatever is needed to survive. Over time,
> more defined Varna specialization can evolve, according to what a
> specific Village actually needs.
I agree. This is what I called natural evolution of a society above. Everyone starts out basically as a worker, the specializations come about when needed due to expansion.
> All of this needs to be documented by
> resident statisticians to create growth dynamic records for future
> reference. At the moment we have general principles that used to
> extant in Vedic society, but, in the current time frame, we are
> walking down a dark road with only a small flashlight. Its all
> experimental, trial and error.
As I said above we can extrapolate from the Vedic and present Indian models. I do not think we do not know all that much. Perhaps we want to pretend that we do not know things like "there will always be more sudras than brahmins" but logically and from experience of history we know this to be true and natural. We certainly expect it to be true today also. If it is an eternal system then we do not expect it to be radically different from how it manifest in history.
> Of course, there will be an Urban Congregation around the Urban
> Monastery and those people are ministered to by the Temple residents.
> Those from among the masses who are ready can move into the Urban
> Monastery or Rural Village,
Only if they have a Varna or skill set so that they are needed in those settings. Otherwise they will stay in their own places in urban society. If there is urban varnashram development also then they can find work with other devotees in the cities.
> the rest can stay in the City as Urban
> Congregation. This accomodates everyones particular status in the
> modes and along the devotional spectrum.
I agree. What I'm saying is that the urban devotees are also a part of Varnashram.
> It is my hope that this Group will produce a handful of individuals
> who want to focus their discussion on the creation of this model. All
> the bugs can be worked out by modeling, visioning and testing in
> fabricated scenarios.
I am not sure that all bugs can be worked out in virtual scenarios but certainly many can.
> When the model framework is filled in, a blue
> print can be made in the form of a sequence of community building
> steps and programs.
That is the job of Vaishyas and Ksatriyas.
ys
GKD
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
> the existing Daivi Varnashram Teachings into a Constitution and Bylaws
> for a Model Community. Once this is on paper, each participant can
> take that and show it to others, and, in cooperation, start to build a
> Village. This will make the discussion "directed" toward a tangible
> objective and not just another rambling cascade of Varnashram Chatter.
Great idea. That would be extremely useful.
One thing that I thought to mention in regard to something that I think
Mukunda wrote. He is intending to start a project with a group of devotees
from what I can see.
I attempted to start a fledgling varnasrama project in Spain about 10 years
ago. I learned two important lessons. One was that I was not selfless enough
as the leader. My family put pressure on me to finish our yurt/cottage,
while the family who had come to participate also needed help. I should have
put my needs aside to help them. They eventually left.
The other was the following:
My project was a part of the New Vrajamandala project, which I helped to
manage for four years. I observed new people arriving at the project.
Initially these new people were friends with everyone as they were fresh
faces and everyone wanted to get to know them. After about three months, you
could observe that the circle of friends had diminished somewhat. After six
months there were clearly some good friends and a few emerging 'enemies'.
After about a year the polarisation was well underway... I realised that It
can take around three years for people to begin to understand if they are
compatible.
It is my belief that in a new community, the core members need to have a
very clear understanding of what they are getting into and very close and
friendly relationships. When people first meet each other it may appear that
they are on the same page in terms of expectations, but it can become
apparent later that even though they do have a lot in common, the
differences can break the whole thing.
I believe that once a charter, or a constitution and byelaws are made, clear
trial periods should be set for anyone who wants to participate in a
project. In that way the members get a good chance to get to know each other
before making a final committment. Ideally this trial period should have
periodic reviews, say every three months. These would be opportunities to
examine expectations and motivations and to explore the way in which
different varnas have different needs and what is appropriate in the given
circumstances.
The modern world promotes a very simplistic idea of equality, whereas
varnasrama culture means that each varna has its own set of guiding values
and that we are not all the same. These are some of the subtleties that
newcomers would need to gradually assimilate.
Your servant
Samba das
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
>
> I agree. Though I do not intend on becoming a member of a Village. I don't
> see that as a necessity to performing my duties under Varnashram. I have
> two homes. One in the Vaisnava city of Srirangam India. The oldest and
> largest Vaisnava community in the world. The other home is in the West on
> the resort Island of Maui in Hawaii where whatever Vaisnavas there are all
> have different jobs in the larger community according to our guna and
> karma.
Dear Gaura Keshava Prabhu.
PAMHO AGTSP
I am thinking to purchase a house somewhere in the Udupi area (my son was
born there and we have friends in the area).
I was wondering how you manage your house when you are away? Do you have
someone take care of it, or is it all secured and empty?
I'm just looking for some practical advice, I will probably spend the winter
down there.
Thanks for your help.
Your servant
Samba das
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
> Exactly why Varnashram is also misunderstood. Yet Bhaktivinode in his
> Caitanya Siksamrta says clearly that the FIRST step towards re-institute
> Varnashram is to reintroduce the samskaras. Upanayanam is a very important
> samskara. One becomes a Dvija by it. There is no Upanayanam in ISKCON. It
> has been merged into Vaisnava diksha.
This is in general. But here in Mayapur at the Bhaktivedanta Academy
gurukula, those boys who have demonstrated the committment and have an
inclination can take upanayanam.
Your servant
Samba das
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
> I read somewhere that the general ratio in the Varnas is 1 Brahman 10
> Kshatriya 100 Vaishya 1000 Shudra. 2% Brahmans sounds reasonable.
On the other side, Krishna sends what we need. Prabhupad explained that, at
least initialy, ISKCON was here to create brahmanas. If devotees are doing
the Garbhadana samskara with great sincerity then more elevated souls will
be attracted to take birth in such families. I dont think you can have too
many brahmanas! A brahmana can take the work of any of the others in an
emergency, just as Srila Prabhupada did all the work in the early days of
ISKCON. Once the emergency is over a wise brahmana will naturally gravitate
to where he is needed most. After all we are talking about service based
daivi varnasrama here.
Your servant
Samba das
niscala dasi
>>BUT...........FIRST, there needs to be a Daivi Varnashram Village for
Village contained within a Google Group!
encouraged to work according to my nature. I think of myself as a
vaisya - my passion is growing veggies. I also like to write on social
reform of thought, so there is a little bit of the brahmana in me. VA
is not about pigeon-holing people, putting them into neat little
categories, which they can't move out of. We are in essence vaisnavas,
and as the need arises, we can do any service. If I feel a need to
write, I can't stop myself. It was part of the reason my last marriage
crashed and burned. But when my thoughts are expressed, then I am very
peaceful in the garden. I don't believe anyone should be gagged,
either because they are a woman, or not in position of authority,
everyone has a conscience. Thus I would love to have a leader like Sri
Ramachandra, seeking thoughtful critical feedback. So in discussing
how each of the varnas should interact with each other, we can spend a
lot of time writing about details, or a short time writing about
essences. In essence, I- and I expect others as well- would love to be
in a community where the sudra is respected and listened to and
valued, and the leader feels love and concern for all members-
including or perhaps especially those who give those thoughtful and
truthful but sometimes uncomfortable comments about his leadership-
how could anyone not respect such a leader, to whom integrity is
everything?
VA among vaisnavas is not making people lesser or greater- SP makes
this clear when he says "but even if he is a sudra, he is vaisnava- he
will get all the perfections"
Dhanesvara Das
Gaura Keshava's suggestion that we each identify ourselves in terms of
varna and ashrama is very good. It will help to move our understanding
further along (more so than endlessly rehashing minutiae). I ask that
each member of the group do so *in their profile*. I have asked
several times for you to fill in your profile and very few are doing
that. Therefore in two days I will change the membership so that only
those who have done so will be able to post messages here. Click on
'Profile' at the top of the page and fill in your profile. Please give
some details about yourself: where you live, what your experience has
been in Iskcon, dates of initiation, what you have done in terms of
community development/'varnashrama living,' and your varna and ashrama
as you see it and why. In two days those who have not done this will
not be able to post comments.
I am getting requests from some members to narrow the focus of this
discussion to compiling existing theory into writings or constitutions
that are easy to understand by groups of people who want to work off a
common set of ideals. Those of you who are interested in participating
in a more focused way to culminate in a specific result, please write
to me privately.
ys
Dhanesvara Das (Moderator)
Dhanesvara Das
> > So I want to ask a question of Caitanya (because you have not filled in your
> > profile we know nothing of your experience) -- what is your experience that
> > you speak from when you say that we do not need a well-defined ideology?
>
> My experience is that in majority cases "ideology" is just a cover. I
> have seen successful communities growing and defining their ideology
> as they grow. In practical terms local councils often do have large
> papers, and they have to, otherwise they will not get funding, but
> they are in most cases rather a lot of paperwork. I resent it.
In your experience? What is your experience? You refuse to tell us,
even after repeated requests. Please tell us what those successful
communities are. Give examples of their success.
> There are examples of projects that are traditional, not "created".
> These projects, such as traditional village, do not have an "ideology"
> prior to it's creation. It is just a historical entity. If you want to
> make something work, make it work first and then write up a theory, to
> use it as a tool to distribute the model.
>
> When Prabhupada was instructing us on VA, he said "I will personally
> come and teach you how to live off the land", he did not write a book
> on VA. Did he? His instructions were all practical and personal.
Srila Prabhupada needed no book because he was going to personally
show us. In lieu of his personal instruction something, such as
discussion or a book, is needed to get us all “on the same page.” As
we can see here, and in so many discussions on this subject that you
are frustrated with, there is little agreement as to what that culture
actually is. The reason is that we generally all learn culture by
living it. Please see Samba Prabhus post to that effect earlier and
how Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja is doing the most practical thing by
training boys in that culture from an early age. For the rest of us,
we come from mleccha culture and are conditioned by it, and we do not
understand how to act according to dharma, varna and ashrama without
instruction.
>
> > you give an example of a successful project that does not have one?
>
> Sure. All varnasrama communities did not have a written mission
> statement (any one has a 6000 old mission statement anywhere in the
> archives?), in fact brahmanas did not have to write down anything, the
> system was "created". Can you show a single modern successful project
> that is not based on single guru/founder or a single leader model,
> where the writing up of "ideology" ever worked and resulted in actual
> varnasrama and not just a guru-serving community?
These communities were part of an existing varnashrama culture. They
learned the culture from their forebears. We do not come from a proper
culture. The existing varnashrama was called ‘asuric varnashrama’ by
Srila Prabhupada, meaning that people are not properly engaged in
varna, do not do their duty according to dharma, and the varnas do not
properly relate to each other.
In answer to your question, a written ideology is not meant to be a
substitute for leadership. Both spiritual and material leadership is
required, and the Srimad-Bhagavatam focuses on the lineage of the
Vaishnava kings for that reason.
>
> > they began he had a written ideology that was five pages long. Now, after
> > fifteen years their written ideology is over 100 pages. Why? Because
> > experience shows them that they need it. And I further ask you, how can you
> > have a culture when the members of that culture do not know what that
> > culture expects of them?
>
> To know what culture expects of you and to "read about it" are two
> rather different things. Usually it pins down on authority of
> brahmanas and gurus to "project" what is "expected" and yes they can
> write it down mainly for themselves just to be consistent. Not that
> you have to write it down before you know what it is.
>
Our purpose here is to become clear about all aspects of the culture,
and to write it down for ourselves and others. Culture can only work
when everybody has a consistent idea of what that culture is and
expects from them. Without that people become unable to function
properly and people engage in socially deviant behaviors. Durkheim
termed this condition ‘anomie.’ My suggestion is that we do not yet
have varnashrama culture within ISKCON because there is not a
consistent understanding of that culture that guides their action.
Hence the need for this discussion.
It seems that you either do not appreciate that, or think it is
unnecessary. In either case, if you think there is no need then please
explain to everyone how everything should be done. To do that you are
going to need to write your own book, or create your own community. Do
you have either?
Dhanesvara Das
Dhanesvara Das
time, place and circumstance. The instruction is independent of all
three. Application is however dependent up all three. But it is
implicit in his statement that the three will be there, after all,
these words are taken from his "Conceptions of Gita Nagari." Obviously
then he was referring to *that* time, place and circumstance. And if
we want to create a varnashrama community (aka Gita Nagari) then these
instructions will also apply there.
Dd
Dhanesvara Das
> > Village contained within a Google Group!
>
> Actually I completely disagree with this also. I have a prospectus I made years ago if anyone is interested for setting up of a Cyber Varnashram community in Second Life. There are some other devotees who are thinking also along these lines after hearing of my idea. My idea would be set up a virtual Varnashram society and then allow devotees to role play in it. This not only would be useful from the research point of view without spending a lot of money on actual real estate and people but it could also let people understand exactly what the duties and responsibilities of different Varnas are. Then when they decide to adopt a particular Varna in real life they know exactly what they are getting into.
>
Land near Orlando, Florida, was discouraged by the GBC, they suggested
that he first make it work in a virtual reality setting, with the
thinking that if it couldn't work there then it will not likely work
in real life. He is therefore pursuing this, and perhaps an inquiry
might be made if they are interested in increasing the number of
participants.
I cannot agree with that however, because without real life support it
takes way to much time to understand what is going on, what to speak
of acting it out. Just trying to keep up with this forum takes all of
my free time. And, real life impels one to do things that one is not
impelled to do in cyberspace. And it is in the doing that many
realizations are born and actions modified. I like 3-D better than
hyper-D.
ys
Dhanesvara Das
Dhanesvara Das
>
> On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam wrote:
>
> > BUT...........FIRST, there needs to be a Daivi Varnashram Village for
> > the new born and adults to participate in.
>
> Actually I completely disagree. Dvaraka was a Varnashram Society and it was a city. So there is no reason why Varnashram principles cannot be practiced by everyone in and where they live and work right here and now.
>
disagree. It is my position that *proper* varnashrama cannot be
practiced right here and now by people where they live and work.
Asuric varnashrama can and is, however, being practiced.
I say that from an economics perspective, but there are other
impediments that may also be discovered. Let me give some examples.
We all understand that the ksatriya is charged with giving people
protection. That does not mean simply swinging a sword, or giving
protection from thieves. It means shelter. A house, a place to live.
It means that people had no need to work 10-18 hours a day simply to
pay rent, to maintain the body. Their minimum maintenance at least was
a given, freeing them to focus on their duty. So where is the ksatriya
who today is giving such protection such shelter?
Next, a vaisya is a person who can create wealth from the resources
provided by nature. Give him a forest and he will produce lumber,
furniture, and perhaps houses. Give him a field and he will create
foodstuffs. Give him cows and he will increase the production of dairy
products, etc. It is important to understand that in the spiritual
culture, the object of endeavor is the thing that is produced, not
something else, as is the case today. This gives every object its
proper value in the culture. When we deviate from this principle then
the value of objects (and people) becomes distorted and perverted,
giving us the “race to the bottom” that we have today.
We take it that the business of a vaisya is to produce money, but that
is *NOT* the proper objective of a vaisya, and I strongly emphasize
the word NOT. In today’s world however, everyone works for money, and
money is the object of every businessman, many of whom are sudras
simply interested in their own sense gratification as you have already
stated. When money becomes valued above all else then everything is
seen as a means to that end, to the end of increased wealth, including
the environment, the customers, the competition, and especially the
employees, distorting the value of all of these, especially of people.
Those who cannot add to the bottom line are discarded as useless, so
that we have over 1 billion of such useless people today. But in
modern society a proper vaisya cannot compete because everyone else is
cutting their expenses to the bone. How are they going to do their
duty to see to it that his praja, those that work for him, are
completely provided for? How will our vaisyas do so in the present
context? I contend that they cannot.
Brahmanas, the intellectual class have to a great degree become
prostitutes, selling their “valued” opinions in order to keep their
position. See what happens to whistleblowers whose consciousness will
not allow them to participate in the cheating. They are blacklisted,
and in many cases killed. Who among them is living independently?
Even sudras cannot properly do their dharma in the modern context
because survival is made so onerous, if not impossible, for most.
Consider that at least 25% of all children are dependent on food
stamps to have proper nourishment, what to speak of homeless families.
If a sudra is not given proper sustenance then they cannot think about
properly doing their duty; they are thinking about how to survive in
whatever way they can.
In my understanding a proper varnashrama culture can only be
established in a village setting because that setting affords an
economic alternative to the oppressiveness of money. If money were so
necessary or important for a properly functioning spiritual culture
surely Manu would have given this instruction (and it is certainly not
beyond his ability to come up with the idea). But he has not.
WHEN we have established a proper functioning varnashrama culture in
the villages, then urban areas that are functioning according to
proper varnashrama are possible, because their support will come from
a proper varnashrama culture and the values they live by can also then
be established.
If we truly understood the debilitating influence of money, and the
evil that it fosters in today’s world, we would abandon it post haste.
Those who are not educated in the evils of this “mechanism of
convenience” please view some of the videos on my website, under the
link “Your Economic Education.”
For further elucidation on this topic please see my book “Lessons in
Spiritual Economics from the Bhagavad-gita – Part 1 Understanding and
Solving the Economic Problem,” available from my website www.spiritual-econ.com.
With respect,
Dhanesvara Das
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
>
> Gaura Keshava's suggestion that we each identify ourselves in terms of
> varna and ashrama is very good. It will help to move our understanding
> further along (more so than endlessly rehashing minutiae). I ask that
> each member of the group do so *in their profile*. I have asked
> several times for you to fill in your profile and very few are doing
> that. Therefore in two days I will change the membership so that only
> those who have done so will be able to post messages here.
As I mentioned before, I dont really want to join Google groups and so far I
seem to be doing ok just responding to various texts (is everyone getting my
responses?). So I am going to write my 'profile' here, if that is ok.
My name is Samba Das. I was born in London UK in 1959
I joined ISKCON in 1976 at Bhaktivedanta Manor when I was 16. I had been
getting BTG's for about two years and many of the articles in those days
were about ISKCON farms and varnasrama. I became a vegetarian when I was 15
due to one of the BTG's. Upon joining I was immediately sent out on
sankirtan, but I had a very hard time stopping people in the street. I came
from a hippy background and had friends who used to travel to free 'hippy'
festivals in the British countryside. After spending several hours of
several days on British streets, afraid to approach anyone and feeling very
useless (I had the record for the least collected on sankirtan), I would run
away from the sankirtana to go stay in a friends tipi for a week or two and
cook on an open fire and cut wood in the forest. I was very attracted to
simple living. But then I would realise that what the devotees kept drilling
into me 'you are in maya!' was true and I would go back to the temple to
surrender to more sankirtana. Eventually I gravitated to converting old
houses into temples and restaurants for ISKCON in various parts of Europe.
I went to India for the first time in 1986 and it revolutionised my Krishna
Consciousness. I was on Padayatra and for the first time I could live simply
and be a devotee!
In 1990 I moved to Mayapur and somehow became involved in developing the
town plan. I discovered that many modern town plans were derived from number
crunching excercises and that such towns lead to social dysfunction. If a
town is planned with an understanding of social interaction, community can
thrive. This lead me to trying to understand the varnasrama social system.
After several years in India, studying architecture, self sufficiency etc.
(My wife and son and I lived on a couple of devotee farm projects in south
India) and working with planners to develop the Mayapur town plan, we moved
to Mauritius where we started to develop a small farm project with my
brother-in-law on land we got from the minister of agriculture. We were
preaching to the local devotees about varnasrama and how all wealth comes
from the land and cows, which are the sustainable economic basis of all true
civilization. However once we got the land and the work to develop it
started, the local devotees lost interest and eventually even my brother in
law pulled out. I could not do it on my own, so that was that.
We were invited to help save New Vrajamandala in Spain and there, after
making and selling some yurts, we started a project called the Madhuvan Eco
Village, which I explained a little about in another post.
When I look back on my life I find that several times I became fascinated
with certain aspects of community development, from the building of
dwellings (tipis, yurts, log cabins) to the development of town plans, to
the overall social system. I have taught myself many skills. I have done so
many things in my life as a devotee that when people ask me what I do, I
have a hard time deciding. At one point I thought I was a carpenter, but as
I learned each new skill I realised that I was not any one of these things.
There were some things I knew I was not good at though. Kadamba Kanana swami
once said, after I miserably failed to develop the yurt business that was
meant to fund the varnasrama project: "you dont have a business bone in your
body". I also realised when I was managing the architect/planners in our
masterplan office that I was a lousy manager! I just could not put my heart
into those things. My inspiration is Srila Prabhupada, and trying to realise
his great plan to spread Krishna Consciousness (the 50%) is what drives me.
In Mayapur, apart from participating in the development of the town plan I
have a personal project to develop a varnasrama college on 19 acres of land
along with Bhakti Vidya Purna Swami and Madhava Gauranga Prabhu from the
Bhaktivedanta Academy Gurukula which I am partly funding. I also teach
primary English in the gurukula, as well as engage in that archaic art of
archery (sorry!) Actually I think archery is very important, but that is
another topic.
I dont want to say I am a Brahmana, because it makes me feel very pompous to
say it and really I have so many faults that it would be a lie. I may be
what you might call an 'entry level' brahmana. My son who is now 16 is in
the gurukula and by observing him and his fellow students I am learning what
it takes to be a real brahmana. Please bless me in this regard.
Your servant
Samba das
DRousse
established, otherwise how will the game be played? That is what we are
doing here -- establishing what the rules are. Then you may apply it in
real life or in a cyber adventure.
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Prabhupad Das
Karapurnam
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 3:02 AM
To: Varnashrama Culture
Subject: Re: Varnashram not Farmashram
PAMHO AGTSP
I understand that devotees will have different conceptions of how to
apply Daivi Varnashram principles and practices, just as they have a
natural proclivity in the Varna and Ashram divisions. From that, some
will want to live in a Village and others will want the City. When I
promote Village life, I do so as my natural tendency to avoid Cities,
where I find it more difficult to remain Krishna conscious. This does
not mean that all Daivi Varnashram be undertaken in a Village.
However, a Village is not necessarily a place where everyone is
"farming". The villagers are engaged in Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaishya
and Shudra occupations to provide what everyone needs in terms of
their psycho-physical needs. When I say Daivi Varnashram Village, I
mean an aggregate of enough people so the Varnas and Ashrams are all
populated to the degree necessary. We already have enough experience
of what happens when devotees move to the country and attempt to set
up a Village that has only farming as the main occupation. They end up
getting jobs in the City and commuting, or, they end up in bitter
isolation, overwhelmed by the burden of chores and constantly worrying
about enough money to pay the bills, etc.
My efforts to develop Daivi Varnashram Villages are based on this, and
similar quotes from Shrila Prabhupad, encouraging devotees to focus
their attention on Village development. Below, Shrila Prabhupad states
that we will not abandon the City, but, in my understanding, and his
example in early ISKCON, he meant that to be Krishna consciousness
undertaken in an Urban Monastery. In any case, a devotee is free to
choose whatever venue of service is found to be most conducive to
actual progress through the nine stages of spiritual development. I am
not personally going to live in a modern City, nor do I encourage
those I teach to do so. My program is Varnashram Village development
and, in the City, the Urban Monastery.
"That is explained by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu when he was talking with
[New Vrindavana date unknown]
travel, reproduce and parent in the real world. In my understanding,
Cyber Daivi Varnashram is an excellent medium for distance cooperation
on building a conceptual model and distributing it globally. But, in
the final stage, the model will be constructed in the real world so
people can actually go and live in it.
PDK
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3180 - Release Date: 10/06/10
09:34:00
DRousse
I appreciate the fact that not all members of the society will be farmers,
but I would like to highlight the fact that varnashrama culture is not a
consumer culture. It is a production-exchange culture economically. Srila
Prabhupada gives us a very good one-liner: "produce only what you need; use
only what you produce." Besides food there are many, many things that need
to be produced and this requires the participation of many, many people, who
are not engaged directly in agriculture, but whose activity depends on the
earth.
If I am a brick maker, baker, basket weaver, weaver, tailor, produce
incense, make clothes, make houses, make windows, or make just about
anything, my work depends on the earth (where else can our 'stuff' come
from?). Since the production of these things is dependent on the earth, it
is natural for people so engaged to live in the village where the raw
materials are located, and where most consumption will take place. (use only
what you produce)
No, it is not farmashrama, but the village is the appropriate setting for
most of the activity of life. Cities historically generally sprang up at the
cross-roads of trading routes, and their support came from the trade of
products that are manufactured in the villages. What other reason are there
for cities to exist in the varnashrama conception? It is only in an
artificial money economy that cities are seemingly independent of the
country/village, and Srila Prabhupada indirectly advised us to prepare for
the time when that artificial economy will fail (and it will). That is one
of my motivations, and I think should be one of our motivations.
Dd
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Jay
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 3:41 AM
To: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Varnashram not Farmashram
PAMHO AGTSP
I agree completely.
GKD
No virus found in this incoming message.
Greg Jay
There are many small gurukulas like this where the boys are rare and are trained only for brahminical jobs. However the majority of children won't be trained like this.
To my knowledge you are not offering Upanayanam separately even in Mayapur gurukula. Neither are the boys taught traditional sandhya vandhanam, samidha dhanam, upakarma or other essential practices of brahmins.
The emphasis is on purely Vaisnava practices not specifically Brahminical ones.
GKD
Gopala Bhatta Gosvami das
Thu, 7 Oct 2010 00:05:22 -0700 (PDT) О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫ Dhanesvara Das <integ...@gmail.com>:
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫!!
О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫
О©╫О©╫О©╫ О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫О©╫ GBGdas
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 6:11 PM, Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan) wrote:
> Prabhupada Das Prabhu wrote:
>
>> I read somewhere that the general ratio in the Varnas is 1 Brahman 10
>> Kshatriya 100 Vaishya 1000 Shudra. 2% Brahmans sounds reasonable.
>
> On the other side, Krishna sends what we need.
Wishful thinking! Trust no future however certain.
> Prabhupad explained that, at
> least initialy, ISKCON was here to create brahmanas.
You cannot create Brahmanas. Brahmanas are like other castes/varnas known by guna and karma. How do you create guna and karma?
Guna is inherent and you can nurture it but you cannot create it where it does not exist. Karma has to meanings. Karma means from previous lives the results of karma by which one receives a particular body and set of senses. Secondly karma means actions in this lifetime. This you can nurture but it takes a lot of spiritual advancement to overcome inherent deficiencies in guna and purva janma karma.
> If devotees are doing
> the Garbhadana samskara with great sincerity then more elevated souls will
> be attracted to take birth in such families.
Hari Das Thakur was an elevated soul but in Varnashram he was an outcaste. The Goswamis were elevated souls even some of them were born as brahmins but they were degraded by their working with the muslims. Thus their position in Varnashram was low as well. So just because elevated persons (Vaisnavas) take birth does not mean they will be brahmins.
We have to understand from the outset the difference between Vaisnavas and Brahmins.
> I dont think you can have too
> many brahmanas!
I disagree. For a certain group there can be more brahmins than that society can support. I gave the example of when the world was over burdened by ksatriyas the Lord had to come and kill them off as Parasurama. A (social) body that is all head and not arms, stomach or feet is deformed and useless. All the limbs of the social body have to be in proportion to each other for the society to work nicely.
> A brahmana can take the work of any of the others in an
> emergency, just as Srila Prabhupada did all the work in the early days of
> ISKCON.
We are not talking about emergency. We are talking about setting up a system according to it's generally accepted rules. First you should think of understanding and applying the generally accepted rules of Varnashram then when you understand that, then think of extreme emergency measures. The problem with ISKCON today is that everyone thinks they are an exception to the generally accepted rules. Yukta vairagya is an excuse not to follow the general rules. There is no need for it in most cases. Ultimately it fails. The Gita clearly states you have a right to perform YOUR Dharma or Duty and not others Dharmas or Duties even if you can do their's perfectly.
> Once the emergency is over
When will that be? My point was that when the number of any class is out of proportion it is not a normal case and society suffers. You then said that you did not see this as an problem. Now you say it is an emergency. Please make up your mind.
> a wise brahmana will naturally gravitate
> to where he is needed most.
A wise brahmana probably won't get himself into such an emergency situation. He will understand the problem before it occurs and avoid it.
> After all we are talking about service based
> daivi varnasrama here.
Varnashram must include striving for the purusarthas. This is an integral part of Varnashram. When you say service there are two types in Daivi Varnashram. There is the social dharmas and the Vaisnava dharmas.
When a Vaisnava worker (sudra) serves a Vaisnava leader (dvija) then he does two things. He is serving the higher social classes which is his material dharma and he is also serving the Vaisnavas (and through them the Lord). Both types of service pleases the Lord.
We already know the kind of Vaisnava dharmas that please the Lord. Establishing Varnashram is about adding the social dharmas that also please Him.
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 6:38 PM, niscala dasi wrote:
> VA is not about pigeon-holing people, putting them into neat little
> categories, which they can't move out of.
Well we can say the same thing about the Ashrams too then if this is true. Why pigeon hole a person as a sannyasi, let him be a grhastha next week and the week after a sannyasi again.
No one is talking about pigeon holing anyone. People should pigeon hole themselves according to what position they feel most comfortable in and are able to actually honestly maintain.
Self examination and honest evaluation is not pigeon holing.
Commitment is needed in order for the system to work nicely.
If one can't commit then perhaps he is not a leader (dvija) but a follower/worker/sudra and needs direction directions from others.
In any sastra did you ever read of a person who was a little bit of a brahmin and a little bit of a vaishya?
If you actually want Varnashram you have to commit to a Varna, just as devotees commit to their Ashramas.
> We are in essence vaisnavas,
> and as the need arises, we can do any service.
This attitude leads to "jack of all trades and master of none."
Again the Gita does not say this. The Gita says you have a right to perform YOUR duty only, even if you can perform others duties perfectly. That is what Varnashram is all about. Finding your place in society and doing that duty not doing someone else's duty even if you can do it.
> If I feel a need to
> write, I can't stop myself.
But simply writing does not make you a brahmin.
> It was part of the reason my last marriage
> crashed and burned. But when my thoughts are expressed, then I am very
> peaceful in the garden. I don't believe anyone should be gagged,
> either because they are a woman, or not in position of authority,
> everyone has a conscience.
No one has suggested gagging anyone.
> Thus I would love to have a leader like Sri
> Ramachandra, seeking thoughtful critical feedback.
My critical feedback is that you cannot have Varnashram without Varnas. Thus you must commit to a Varna or live according to a different social system.
For example. We all accept Ashram designations in ISKCON. What if someone came to you and said " I don't believe in pigeon holing anyone. Therefore I will not accept an ashram designation. One week I feel like a brahmachari or sannyasi, the next I fell I need some female companionship. Because I am a Vaisnava I am above this material ashram system."
What will you say?
I am saying the same thing to you about Varnas.
No one forces you into an ashram designation. You decide what you feel is best honestly for you own level of living. The same goes for Varnas. But it is not a whimsical thing. If you whimsically think I am qualified to be a sannyasi but the next week or month or year you can't maintain it, then this is much worse than simply being an honest grhastha from the beginning. Same with Varnas. An honest sudra is better than a brahma bandhu (fallen brahmin).
> So in discussing
> how each of the varnas should interact with each other, we can spend a
> lot of time writing about details, or a short time writing about
> essences.
We cannot begin to speak about interaction of the Varnas until we first agree on acceptance of Varnas. If you can't accept a Varna and work within it, then you can't take any further step. Your quest for Varnashram is dead because the first step is acceptance of a Varna.
You can still be a Vaisnava. There are Vaisnava sects in India that reject Varna and Ashrama. You just can't claim to have Varnashrama without both Varnas and Ashramas. By definition it cannot be so.
> In essence, I- and I expect others as well- would love to be
> in a community where the sudra is respected and listened to and
> valued, and the leader feels love and concern for all members-
> including or perhaps especially those who give those thoughtful and
> truthful but sometimes uncomfortable comments about his leadership-
> how could anyone not respect such a leader, to whom integrity is
> everything?
It is not about not being heard. It is about self examination and honest evaluation based on sastra. Then acting according to one's true nature.
Why is it that we accept a leader as having greater authority than us? It must be based on real qualities.
> VA among vaisnavas is not making people lesser or greater- SP makes
> this clear when he says "but even if he is a sudra, he is vaisnava- he
> will get all the perfections"
You have to understand the difference between Vaisnavism and Varnashrama.
One is a spiritual system the other a social system.
They can work together but they need not.
You can have one without the other.
If you want both, then you are already a Vaisnava, then you now have to add Varna and Ashrama.
GKD
niscala dasi
I said that the instruction to make a horoscope for the child is
dependent on a qualified astrologer. It is like, if SP asks for a
driver to take him to the airport, it is implicit that the driver be
qualified, licensed etc. Without a qualified astrologer, a horoscope
is a waste of time, and if one bases the training of a child around
it, it may be counter-productive, just like having an untrained driver
transporting SP may also be extremely counter-productive. Without a
qualified astrologer, however, anyone can know what is their nature. I
do not have to ask an astrologer if I enjoy growing produce- I enjoy
growing produce. Your disappointment with most devotees not knowing
their nature, what they would like to do, is because the concept is
utterly foreign in ISKCON- one only knows how to be obedient, how to
be told what to do, and we are also told that that is what surrender
is. So when the question "what you would like to do?" is put before
them, they immediately think "is this guy trying to discourage me from
surrender? For decades now, I have only done what others said I should
do. To think what I would want to do is unthinkable. Indeed I have
been taught not even to think about it. What is this guy, the Devil,
trying to tempt me to think of how I could be more happy, when I am
supposed to be entirely happy, just obeying orders, and if I am not
happy, it is because I am in maya" So you are teaching a foreign
concept, one could say a foreign language, and it takes time to
master. But when convinced by references to the gita, that surrender
is supposed to be according to your nature, then they will come around
to meditate deeply on what their nature is. They may need help from
others: "prabhu, you seem most enthusiastic when you are cooking (or
preaching to guests, or whatever), so they can take that into account
as well.
Hope this makes sense to you, if not then lets discuss some more...
>
> - Show quoted text -
niscala dasi
is *NOT* the proper objective of a vaisya, and I strongly emphasize
the word NOT
money- in ethical ways of course- and likes to serve Krsna and the
vaisnavas that way? Doesn't a farm also require money- even to pay
land tax, or to provide a fund for devotees medical needs or old age-
one of your objections "why VA won't work". I agree that it should not
be based on making money- it is based on one's natural propensity, and
if that happens to be ethical business, and they want to use it to
serve Krsna, then why should we reject it? The problem with money
arises when making it is no longer a means to something wonderful,
like a thriving community of joyful devotees lovingly cooperating to
serve the Lord, but an end- or a means to serve the ego. I think it
was you who described a devotee businessman who was famous for being
very generous with donations to the temple, but who severely under-
paid his devotee employees. So this is money-making to serve the ego,
instead of the devotees. So, purity of heart and purpose, then
anything horrible can be turned into gold.
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
> What other reason are
> there for cities to exist in the varnashrama conception? It is only in an
> artificial money economy that cities are seemingly independent of the
> country/village, and Srila Prabhupada indirectly advised us to prepare for
> the time when that artificial economy will fail (and it will). That is one
> of my motivations, and I think should be one of our motivations.
In England a city is categorised as a place that has a cathedral. This is
the ancient concept of what a city represented. It is a place of religion
and culture. In days of old cities were maintained by monarchs who would
patronise various arts. When you look at the ancient cores of most of todays
big cities, it is the palaces or cathedrals that form the core.
When Srila Prabhupada wrote to the planning officer of West Bengal he wrote
words to the effect: "we are making a plan to be self sufficient and we will
be building a magnificent international city based on vedic culture". He
said these two seemingly opposite ideas, self sufficiency, and magnificent
international city within a sentence of each other, as if one would lead to
the other. This was in fact his intention, he mentions it in more than one
place. We can understand that a city based on vedic culture will be a grand
exponent of everything that culture stands for. In Mayapur the crowning
glory of it will be the "Temple of the Vedic Planetarium". The rest of the
city should comprise of other examples of vedic culture mainly educational,
all supported by a self sufficient economic base. This is the challenge we
have to rise to in Mayapur. Please pray that we can come up to this
incredible challenge!
Your servant
Samba Das
niscala dasi
Your answer to my assertion indicates that you misunderstood its
purpose. I wrote: >>VA is not about pigeon-holing people, putting them
> > categories, which they can't move out of.
grhastha next week and the week after a sannyasi again.
of varnas according to whim! Absolutely not what I am trying to say. I
mean, as the need arises, one can do any service. For example, just
say a hail storm is coming, and the crops need to be harvested very
quickly. As VA is ESSENTIALLY loving cooperation, all varnas can and
should take part in the harvest. They do not want to see the service
of any devotee spoiled- but offered to the Lord- this is the mood of
the gopis- and the result and essence of "make Vrindavan". Arjuna, in
the beginning of the gita, was wanting to change varnas, because he
perceived his duty as excrutiatingly painful. So for selfish reasons,
one should not neglect one's duty, but to help others, one can do it.
SP gave the example of the king's servant who is ordered to stand
outside his bedchamber and never enter it. When he sees smoke coming
from under the door, he neglects his duty to stand outside- to help
the King.
Your answer also indicates that you are equating varna with ashrama.
Varna is about service, ashrama is about renunciation. The first may
change suddenly as the need arises, for service to vaisnavas is
dependent on circumstance, as explained above. The second changes only
gradually, as it is not dependent on ever changing circumstance, but
on the condition of the heart, how free it is from attachment. Neither
can be whimsically changed, but as different situations arise, then
services may need to change. Another example- a devotee is in
emotional crisis, or a crisis of shelter- he has come from outside and
is bankrupt, no place to live. Any devotee can offer him shelter, it
need not be the ksatriya. Any devotee can try to alleviate his
distress, that is the nature of a devotee. Another example, the cook
is sick, and everyone else is engaged. The ksatriya's main business is
to counsel devotees, but he steps up for the job. Loving cooperation.
Similarly, a sudra like myself, has some ideas for writing a book
based on the instructions of SP, and has written one already. Should
she, because her main occupation is growing vegetables, be silenced?
If so, count me out of your VA community!
One has to see the "why" behind the instruction. Krsna instructs
Arjuna not to do anothers duty, it will send him to hell. Why? His
reasons were self-centred, though rationalized as other-centred. But
when to serve others, one changes service, one serves the purpose of
the instruction. Rules and regulations should neither be followed
fanatically, nor given up whimsically.
In response to: I don't believe anyone should be gagged,
> > everyone has a conscience.
>
Giving advice is the forte of the brahmana, but if someone else has
good advice based on sastra, even if a sudra, it can be accepted. We
should not serve varna, but rather use varna to serve the Lord. As
devotees we are behooved to. Essentially, we are all devotees, and our
main purpose is vaisnava seva. If our varna serves that purpose, we
accept it. If our varna does not, we reject it. If our varna is study
and lecturing, and we do not give it up to help save the harvest from
hail, or to help a devotee in crisis, or to transplant seedlings in
the short space of time the weather is cloudy, so that they do not
wilt in the sun, then we have lost sight of the goal entirely, simply
following rules for the sake of following them. We then have the caste
system, which is not only vicious and exploitative but impractical as
well. I was in Vrindavan when I heard a western devotee exclaim in
despair that the kitchen has been dirty for over a week, because the
cleaner was sick, and none of the brahmana cooks would clean. These
emergencies happen all the time, in daily life, and especially in a
small community, one may have to be prepared to change one's service
regularly, to ensure that the vaisnavas are served nicely. That is not
against VA but is the essence of it-loving cooperation
>>Self examination and honest evaluation is not pigeon holing.
ambition to be in an exalted position, but also be willing to change -
not to serve ambition, but to serve the devotees. Write a book, if you
think it will help. Harvest the wheat. "Anything to be of service. I
will turn into a frog to help you"- that mood of service and loving
cooperation- that is the essence, as stressed so much by SP.
>> If I feel a need to
> > write, I can't stop myself.
>
> But simply writing does not make you a brahmin.
but their general duties will fit their psycho-physical nature. Thank
you.
DRousse
the idea of having a cathedral was for political control. Cathedrals were
seats of power of the Church, and they were therefore important in this
sense. Granted culture was also there and culture is very important. We also
need culture in our villages, otherwise members will go to the city (or
internet) to get it. Therefore there must be more than farmers in our social
scheme. As for Srila Prabhupada's idea of a wonderful, transcendental city,
I can't wait to see it and go there. Such a transcendental city will not
founded on principles that are antithetical to the daiva-varnashrama
culture, as are our modern cities.
Dd
Dhanesvara Prabhu wrote:
Your servant
Samba Das
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21:34:00
Dhanesvara Das
understood. In the immediate circumstances we cannot abandon money.
Indeed, a great amount of money is needed to establish the properly
functioning varnashrama culture, and yes, we need some who can make it
and are willing to use it to support the establishment of Gita Nagari
(ref. to Srila Prabhupada’s Conceptions of Gita Nagari wherein he
advocates taking money from the asuras to establish the transcendental
community).
As you were pointing out earlier, there are considerations of time,
place and circumstance. In the present time we need money to build,
but we want to be clear about its proper place and utility. We need it
to work with the dominant culture, but in establishing our own culture
of daiva-varnashrama, or even varnashrama, it is detrimental to the
mutually-dependent relationships that are a necessary part of the
culture. Therefore it is useful for exchange with the outside world,
but in the community of devotees it should be (and in most temples is)
unnecessary.
Further, as devotees often reply when I make such statements, Srila
Prabhupada himself handled lots of money, so it is not the substance
itself (it is only material energy), but it is the effect that it has
on the consciousness of people. It divides interest. You have your
money, I have mine. This leaves us divided. You have your property
that you bought with your money, and so you can do what you want.
Please see Sivarama Swami’s statements about how they had to change
that aspect of their community after sufficient experience. Then there
is the nature of what we currently use for money—a debt instrument
whose value is always at risk, the need to protect it, and so on. We
won’t go into those details here, but for those who think that money
is simply benign I suggest that there is a lot more education that is
needed on the subject.
The point I was focusing on is that it is not the business of vaisyas
to make money, but it is their business to increase real wealth by
converting the gifts of nature into usable items that people want and
need. If they simply focus on money as they do now, they do not take
up their actual business of creating real tangible wealth from
nature.
I hope this clarifies my position better.
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das
niscala dasi
Things have to be taken in steps and the very first one, before
anything, is to attract devotees to the idea of VA. So if you stress
it will be not based on money, they may panic. They will think about
medical emergencies and the like. If you stress it is about finding
your varna and never deviating from it, they will also panic, thinking
that they will be only allowed to do one service, instead of an
interesting variety according to their taste and what they see as
necessary. If you stress it is about doing away with electricity,
again, panic. If you stress it is about horoscopes, more panic at the
thought my future is in the hands of a possibly incompetent
astrologer. Devotees, many of them, are tired of being told what to
do, especially as they get older. Many marry, just to be independent
and get some degree of autonomy. If they feel, in any way, that being
in a VA community will take away their autonomy, they will be about as
interested as a duck in living in a desert. So, this is just my
opinion, but it seems to me a good idea to tell them- "VA is about
you- what you like to do, and can do, for Krsna in the way of serving
His devotees, this community. So what is your passion? What do you
live for, your reason for being, your call?" It is interesting, this
idea of "call" which is spoken about mainly by very religious
christians. They speak about reaching a point in their lives when they
were "called" from within to do something for humanity or God. This
"call" is a sense of obligation and duty, but freedom and autonomy
within that duty, as it has not come from the outside, but within
them. We also have to listen for that "call", as it gives us a sense
of meaning and purpose to our lives, and at the same time gives us
autonomy and freedom in obligation and service. It makes our service
joyful, as we are alligned with our perceived purpose for being, in
this world. In our literature it is called "rasa" - that eternal
service we are meant to perform, we have the taste for it, are drawn
towards it. It may be argued that rasa is only tasted in the higher
levels of bhakti- and yes it is- pure rasa. But we all have rasa,
taste for some service, we just have to free it from the modes of
nature and apply it in pure consciousness to vaisnava seva. Pure
consciousness means that we have to free it from selfish
considerations. Arjuna was considering his future- a kingdom without
friends and family to share it with, but Krsna said "fight for the
sake of fighting" for the sheer joy of destroying an enemy to mankind-
to justice and to goodness, for that was his nature. There is not much
need for killing bodies these days, but we can fight other battles for
justice and goodness- such as to preserve integrity in SP's mission.
Those drawn to fighting for justice and the welfare of all, even if
not killing bodies to do it, are "ksatriyas" protectors from harm,
spiritual, psychological and physical harm. We are in spiritual danger
when the integrity of SP's mission is under threat, such as when
making money becomes more important than vaisnava seva- to bring it
around to your point. Anyway, the point I am trying to make is to make
it attractive. What is the use of discussing details, before devotees
are attracted? So, how to attract them? Many devotees leave because
they feel simply a cog in the wheel, invisible, unvalued, or because
they see corruption in the movement, or because they feel oppressed,
or they can't follow the principles purely, or because they just want
to not be stuck in a kitchen for the rest of their lives- in summary,
they leave out of frustration of one type or another. VA should scoop
up all these devotees who no longer fit in, and attract others who
similarly would not fit into the strictly monastic and
organizationally bureacratic form of ISKCON that is in place now.
These are some of the reasons I perceive devotees are leaving or have
left KC- but what is your experience, DP? I think it was you who said
that you interviewed the devotees at the Polish farm, who had become
disillusioned with it. What were their reasons?
Having said that I thoroughly agree with your explanation below, and
to allign it with what I have said above- we need to make it clear how
money is making our lives miserable, isolating us from each other,
depersonalizing the world, and actually making it less secure not more
secure. Money can devalue overnight, but service will not. A weekly
wage might need to be $1,000 one week to cover your expenses, and
overnight may need to be $1,500 - so where is the security? Security
is having a ksatriya in charge, someone whose whole purpose of being
is to give you and your family shelter, security, employment,
education and training in a way that nourishes you physically,
psychologically and spiritually. That is a real king, actually- he
cares for the people like a father, not some guy with a crown. So real
monarchy, not the personality of kali dressed as a king, that will
make everyone very happy. Hope this makes some sense- I think we are
agreeing , even if our points of view are different...
Greg Jay
Can you say more about your ideas about money?
I believe that even in Vedic times there was currency.
I also would like to know exactly what Sivarama Swami has done regarding private ownership and money.
It seems from what Prabhupada has said is that sudras do not have money or real property.
Since I take it for granted that he bulk of the population are sudras does this not mean eventually convincing the bulk of the population to become something like medieval serfs or dare I say slaves.
This does not seem to be a very good preaching point in favor of VA.
Personally I do not see any way forward without acceptance of currency and private ownership.
GKD
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
>If you stress it is about finding
> your varna and never deviating from it, they will also panic, thinking
> that they will be only allowed to do one service, instead of an
> interesting variety according to their taste and what they see as
> necessary. If you stress it is about doing away with electricity,
> again, panic. If you stress it is about horoscopes, more panic at the
> thought my future is in the hands of a possibly incompetent
> astrologer. Devotees, many of them, are tired of being told what to
> do, especially as they get older. Many marry, just to be independent
> and get some degree of autonomy.
You are of course quite right in your analysis above, but it is not
necesarily always true.
If you look at Srila Prabhupadas instructions for bramachary training you
will find that the whole thing is based on menial service to the guru. When
my son first went into the Mayapur gurukula, there was a time when we wanted
to bring him home one day for a program. We found out that Wednesdays was
the maha cleaning day, so we thought it would be a good day because they
would only be cleaning, he would not miss any lessons. That was when we
found out that the cleaning is one of the most essential elements of the
character building excercise. When our son first went into the school, to
get him to clean anything was a trip. Now when he comes home we cannot stop
him he is always finding things to clear up or re-arrange.
Students who have grown up taking bath outside at 2am by hand pump, year
round, who cook over cow patti fires using vegetables and grains that they
helped to grow and harvest. Who wash their own clothes every day. Who take
responsibility for the younger students. Who go on a couple of months of
parikrama every year where they rely on Krishna to find them shelter and
prasadam. By doing madhukari (begging) in the villages of Braja as Krsna and
Balarama did. Who also teach what they have learned to younger students, etc
etc, such kids have very real sense of duty and experience the positive
results that come from being humble and dutiful.
You stand a much better chance of having a sane society when people are
dutiful as second nature. Its not that they are dumb servants. They know
what is what. They understand that this material world is a place where one
learns to be responsible enough to earn an honest and open relationship with
Krishna!
They learn to be sovereign persons who take personal responsibility to do
what is right according to sastra. They are trained to be truly noble
persons, something that we have had taken away from us by the bogus
education of the all powerful asuric vaisyas that rule today.
I am not saying that every single gurukuli is going to turn out like this,
but so far quite a few who have graduated have turned out very well.
The difficulties that that people face, as you pointed out, all stem from
lack of training. In my own life I can see how if the managers had actually
cared about me, they would have trained me, instead of forcing me to make
money. We will face a lot of difficulties for as long as we dont train our
children. There are many subtleties in such training and they are all very
important.
Your servant
Samba das
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
> Since I take it for granted that he bulk of the population are sudras does
> this not mean eventually convincing the bulk of the population to become
> something like medieval serfs or dare I say slaves.
The current system is reducing everyone to slavery. Everyone is being
reduced to the lowest possible common denominator. The work goes to the
cheapest workers, everyone else has to follow or perish.
Prabhupada describes how Sudras are meant to be treated like personal family
dependents. They are taken care of to such a degree that they would not even
think of leaving. I think this would only be possible in a society of
abundance. Dhanesvara prabhu once wrote a very nice description of this. In
a village, the people recognising the Lordship of Krishna and Balarama, know
that what they produce comes from their Lordships mercy. As such they always
offer it all back to them. However, where does it go? It all remains in the
village (minus a little ksatriya tax). When you have a settlement wherein
the citizens are all trained according to their varna, they become happy and
expert in their work. Expert workers are good producers and because they
offer the results to the Lord and because the fruits remain at their
disposal in the village, they become abundant. Look at the amounts of
foodstuffs the villagers had at their immediate disposal at the annakuta
festival. Plenty enough for everyone.
That is why a localised economy based on the land and cow is so essential.
Now the whole thing is designed, with railroads and superhighways to take
everything out of the village. To plunder the wealth of the people and then
give them handouts - if they are lucky! This leads to slavery, not the other
way round.
Your servant
Samba das
Greg Jay
This means that you thought I was saying that we could move in and our
of varnas according to whim!
Absolutely not what I am trying to say. I
mean, as the need arises, one can do any service.
For example, just
say a hail storm is coming, and the crops need to be harvested very
quickly.
As VA is ESSENTIALLY loving cooperation,
all varnas can and
should take part in the harvest. They do not want to see the service
of any devotee spoiled- but offered to the Lord- this is the mood of
the gopis- and the result and essence of "make Vrindavan".
Arjuna, in
the beginning of the gita, was wanting to change varnas, because he
perceived his duty as excrutiatingly painful.
So for selfish reasons,
one should not neglect one's duty, but to help others, one can do it.
SP gave the example of the king's servant who is ordered to stand
outside his bedchamber and never enter it. When he sees smoke coming
from under the door, he neglects his duty to stand outside- to help
the King.
Your answer also indicates that you are equating varna with ashrama.
Varna is about service, ashrama is about renunciation.
The first may
change suddenly as the need arises, for service to vaisnavas is
dependent on circumstance, as explained above.
The second changes only
gradually, as it is not dependent on ever changing circumstance, but
on the condition of the heart, how free it is from attachment.
Neither
can be whimsically changed, but as different situations arise, then
services may need to change.
Another example- a devotee is in
emotional crisis, or a crisis of shelter- he has come from outside and
is bankrupt, no place to live. Any devotee can offer him shelter, it
need not be the ksatriya. Any devotee can try to alleviate his
distress, that is the nature of a devotee. Another example, the cook
is sick, and everyone else is engaged. The ksatriya's main business is
to counsel devotees, but he steps up for the job.
Loving cooperation.
Similarly, a sudra like myself, has some ideas for writing a book
based on the instructions of SP, and has written one already. Should
she, because her main occupation is growing vegetables, be silenced?
If so, count me out of your VA community!
One has to see the "why" behind the instruction.
Krsna instructs
Arjuna not to do anothers duty, it will send him to hell. Why? His
reasons were self-centred, though rationalized as other-centred. But
when to serve others, one changes service, one serves the purpose of
the instruction. Rules and regulations should neither be followed
fanatically, nor given up whimsically.
In response to: I don't believe anyone should be gagged,either because they are a woman, or not in position of authority,everyone has a conscience.you wrote > No one has suggested gagging anyone.
Giving advice is the forte of the brahmana, but if someone else has
good advice based on sastra, even if a sudra, it can be accepted.
We should not serve varna, but rather use varna to serve the Lord. As
devotees we are behooved to. Essentially, we are all devotees, and our
main purpose is vaisnava seva. If our varna serves that purpose, we
accept it. If our varna does not, we reject it.
If our varna is study
and lecturing, and we do not give it up to help save the harvest from
hail, or to help a devotee in crisis, or to transplant seedlings in
the short space of time the weather is cloudy, so that they do not
wilt in the sun, then we have lost sight of the goal entirely, simply
following rules for the sake of following them.
We then have the caste
system,
which is not only vicious and exploitative but impractical as
well.
I was in Vrindavan when I heard a western devotee exclaim in
despair that the kitchen has been dirty for over a week, because the
cleaner was sick, and none of the brahmana cooks would clean.
These emergencies happen all the time, in daily life,
and especially in a
small community,
one may have to be prepared to change one's service
regularly,
Self examination and honest evaluation is not pigeon holing.
Exactly. One must find what one likes to do, can honestly do without
ambition to be in an exalted position,
but also be willing to change -
not to serve ambition, but to serve the devotees.
Write a book, if you
think it will help. Harvest the wheat. "Anything to be of service. I
will turn into a frog to help you"- that mood of service and loving
cooperation- that is the essence, as stressed so much by SP.
If I feel a need towrite, I can't stop myself.But simply writing does not make you a brahmin.
exactly my point. as need arises, anyone can write, counsel, harvest,
but their general duties will fit their psycho-physical nature. Thank
you.
Greg Jay
OK, serfs if you prefer, rather than slaves.
The differences between modern workers and VA sudras are:
Modern workers
1. Independent, thus able to become Vaishyas, Ksatriyas and/or Brahmins even within this lifetime.
2. Paid money
3. Can vote
4. Must look after themselves
VA Sudras
1. Completely dependent, remain sudras in this lifetime but may of course make spiritual advancement within their Varna.
2. Paid in kind not cash
3. Can't vote
4. Are looked after from cradle to grave
This is just a quick analysis. Does anyone want to add any points?
GKD
DRousse
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. If you
haven't yet read "Money and Varnashrama Culture" (it's on Dandavats front
page, and is in the files section of our group) please start there, as I
cover some of the basics in that short essay. There is much more to say on
this subject and more of the necessary background material is in my book.
In my experience people do not read electronic books as completely as print
books, so I have some reticence about offering my book electronically. If
the printed book is there it reminds you to read it, but the electronic one
is only there when you access it. But in order to try to get everyone on
this discussion on the same page, I will make this book available to the
members of our conference. My hope is that the members of this group will
read it, as I do believe that it will facilitate our common understanding.
Download the book from here (PDF 1.03 mb):
http://www.mediafire.com/?kowwfn6m5ws1q
I ask everyone not to share this version because it has some uncorrected
errors, and with my present connection I cannot upload the final version.
When I have been able to upload the final version I will let everyone know.
Regarding money in "vedic times," no, there was none. Trade was done either
by barter, and in many cultures "trade" was accomplished with a gift
economy.
As far as HH Sivarama Swami's experience, please also see the transcript of
his conversation with the devotees of New Vrindavana, also in the file
section of this group.
Some of your queries are answered in my reply to Niscala D yesterday. Please
also look there.
Private ownership is another topic which requires some detailed discussion.
I will try to write at length about that today.
I am looking forward to more in-depth discussion on this topic with you.
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Jay
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 2:34 AM
To: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Varnashram not Farmashram
Dhanesvara ji, PAMHO AGTSP
GKD=
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3182 - Release Date: 10/07/10
09:34:00
DRousse
program. I pray that some of those graduates will open more such gurukulas
around the world.
Dd
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Samba (das)
(Mayapur Masterplan)
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 5:50 AM
To: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Varnashram not Farmashram
Niscala dasi wrote:
Your servant
Samba das
DRousse
I anticipate that the varnashrama culture that we establish will have
differences from what was practiced earlier, simply because people can only
do what they can do, and what the government will presently allow us to do.
The question of money is a case in point. In a transition phase we may well
use money since that is what everyone is accustomed to and knows. But it may
be a private currency instead of the government fiat currency.
Education is another thing. My understanding is that the sudras were
previously not educated, and not allowed to read shastra. We cannot follow
that, as the government requires everyone to have education, and certainly
we will also encourage everyone to read Srila Prabhupada's books, and chant
Hare Krishna as much as possible.
I think we need to plan for an evolution, to take people from where they
"are at" today to where the society should go in the future. Chart the
course, and point the ship in the right direction. We won't be able to
captain very long, but we must set the course properly for others to follow.
Samba is making a very important point, which I also made in my Revolt of
the Elites, that our devotees must bring the mode of goodness into our
relationships, particularly in terms of protection of the praja. (Sorry, but
I continue to have to refer to my earlier writing, but if you would read
that it would help move the discussion along).
In my book I also point out how the powers-that-be decided to change the
culture in order to maximally exploit people. So we see in the world today
the extreme exploitation and throw away people that result from this system.
Example: Bangladeshi garment workers being paid 5 Rs per hour, forced to
work 18 hour days, 7 days a week, no breaks during work, fired if they get
pregnant, and fired if they organize to protest for a decent wage. In order
to survive every member of the family has to work like a slave from the time
they are 7 or 8 years old. Walt Disney world pays 1/2 of 1% for labor for
t-shirts and other apparel that they sell for $12 or more. They could easily
double the wage, or even triple it and feel no pressure. Eisner the
president of Walt Disney makes more than $60,000 AN HOUR! But when these
women finally did get organized Disney shut down the factory and sent the
orders elsewhere. That most Americans do not see such things is only a
matter of time. The demons runs this world and they are so envious that they
don't want to see anybody happy, and as Srila Prabhupada has told us, they
are even more happy when they see people suffering.
IF these people had the choice to stay in those circumstances, or were given
the choice to do work that they enjoyed, were able to have time for
themselves and to be with their families, were secure in their housing and
maintenance, even though they had no "salary," or couldn't vote (they don't
get to vote in their factory either, and as far as the government votes are
concerned, how is that helping them now? It isn't. The government gives them
no succor either) that would be a no-brainer! Which would you call slavery?
Read the chapter, The Economics of Passion for the full story.
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Jay
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 6:24 AM
To: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Varnashram not Farmashram
PAMHO AGTSP
Modern workers
VA Sudras
GKD
No virus found in this incoming message.
niscala dasi
on the lines of how to attract adult devotees, who may have been 20 or
30 years in the movement, rather than children. Children are a
different matter- they need guidance and structure, and they can be
happily moulded into good habits with a bit of consistency. I wasn't
trying, however to devalue the importance of obedience and austerity,
even for adult devotees. As far as obedience goes, it is unnatural
when it serves someone else's agenda, unless that person cares for
you, then it is natural to serve and become obedient, to try to
please- that is the nature of the spiritual world. How we came to have
so many devotees cynical about authority, reluctant about servitude
and desiring autonomy, is that they have not had the care and concern
that is required before one can give over one's autonomy to someone
else, and willingly and joyfully do their every command like it was
nectar. Look what happens in our society when we give up our autonomy
and depend on the society to protect us, when the society does not
care- such as Citra DD did! So we have to put the cart before the
horse- first act in such a way that we inspire trust and invoke the
desire to be obedient, rather then blame bad training or the defects/
effects of kali yuga on devotees' propensities to withold the same.
You wrote: The difficulties that that people face, as you pointed
> lack of training
be loving, concerned and compassionate examples. You cannot "train" a
person to joyfully accept the every command of a person who cares
nothing for them, just wants to exploit them. We see in SP's lila-
devotees with no training whatsoever, joyfully and willingly becoming
his servants, waiting on his every command So training has to start
from the leadership level- training to feel, to listen, to care. Then
just try to stop the devotees surrendering their all. It is like
trying to wall in the ocean!
I want to say something else about obedience, that applies to adults,
much less children. We all have a conscience which is honed from our
beliefs and values, which in turn revolve around learned sastric
precepts and imbibed cultural mores. An adult devotee, trained as we
all are, or are supposed to be, in sastra caksusa, chooses when to be
obedient, and when not to, according to his conscience and
understanding. Again let us look at Kuruksetra, the ideal master, the
ideal servant. Krsna never forced or coerced Arjuna, He said
"deliberate on My instructions, and do what you think is best"- He
allowed Arjuna to discriminate for himself, taking on board the
guidance of the Lord and listening to his conscience, freed from fear
and attachment. So if we see something not quite right in the
instruction, such as banning a book because it is unpalatably truthful
(such as the books of Kundali Prabhu, currently under censure, to my
knowledge) and that thing that is not quite right is based on our
understanding and conscience, rather than our fears and attachments,
then we need not follow it, nay we should loudly object to it being
forced upon others. And we can do that independent of varna, because
rules and regulations can always be given up to serve the purpose of
the rules and regulations- coming to know the Lord within- who speaks
to us and guides us. Obedience is a wonderful quality,but it should
never be blind.
As for austerity, that can also be inspired or evoked, we saw that
also in SP's lila- how extraordinary that undisciplined hippies became
self-controlled brahmacaris! After some time, however, even under the
guidance of such an inspired and caring leader as SP, many fell down.
For this reason, SP advised us to introduce VA- "not everyone should
artificially be raised to brahmana". And the awesome beauty of VA
theory is that through this honesty, and the humilty it invokes, one
is elevated, regardless of varna. SP said "better a street sweeper
than a charlatan meditator" Why? The street sweeper is honest, and
through that honesty, is humble. He may not be as austere as the
meditator, but his service is honest- that is the difference. That
makes him perfect, in due course. It is said that all austerities, all
charity, all energy should be used in the Lord's service, and
according to our nature, some will offer austerity, some charity, some
energy, some intelligence- we do not have to pretend to be intelligent
or austere- we each have some quality to offer that is really there in
us. It may be creativity, may be strength, may be the ability to
empathize or the patience to listen. Accordingly, we should be given
karma, or varna, or service. That is varnashrama- everything else that
is not varnashrama is a waste of time and talent.
You wrote: You stand a much better chance of having a sane society
> dutiful as second nature. Its not that they are dumb servants. They know
> what is what. They understand that this material world is a place where one
> learns to be responsible enough to earn an honest and open relationship with
> Krishna!
place where being "dutiful as second nature" is possible. Loving and
consistent training from birth is ideal, but for adult devotees, trust
must be earnt first, particularly when trust has before been broken
for them. Children are more easy to elevate- as they are naturally
trustful, having had no bad experiences (we hope) They even have a
tendency to blame the bad experience on themselves, even sexual abuse.
This innocent attitude, which certainly indicates something of our
real nature, is counterproductive when surrounded by that which is
unreal- exploitation, and catastrophe happens- innocence is lost, and
the child becomes the blind rebel against authority, the hippy, the
drug addict, the social misfit. Later when he readjusts, he retains
cyniism towards authority. No one trained him that way- he learnt it
as a defense, a survival tactic. If put again in the real and eternal
atmosphere of loving and consistent care about his welfare, devoid of
any propensity to exploit him, the child again is born within us. So
first, the loving concern, the ridding within ourselves of all
propensities to exploit, charm, coerce, flatter, or in any way
manipulate, and replacing such with desire to help, elevate, give
vision, power and happiness, then after that, obedience and training.
Just some burfi for you to chew on...
hope that it is burfi and not rotten tomatoes :)
On Oct 8, 12:50 pm, "Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)"
niscala dasi
I am wondering if you have read any of SP's books- in so many
purports he criticizes the caste system as based on exploitation, and
>
> VA is a material social system. It is not based on loving cooperation. Where did you get such nonsense?
something else material, which could only be exploitation, then why oh
why introduce it??? Indeed we have it already in the west, as
evidenced by your examples of how corporate managers recruit their
employees, based on their qualifications. Surely, oh surely, we want
more than that??? By your examples, and your own testimony you have
indicated you consider VA material, only for putting qualified people
in qualified positions. Hello- we have that already!
Yet I agree with you- qualified persons should go in qualified
positions- that just makes sense. But the thing must revolve around
SP's instructions to "make Vrindavan"- mould ourselves into the mood
of the gopis and gopas, always pushing others to serve the Lord first,
cooperating with others to make their service pleasing to the Lord,
rather than showing off how wonderfully we serve Him ourselves. It is
unthinkable that VA is not based on loving cooperation, but something
mundane, material. We have that in the west already. Go join any
corporation- the recruitment is based on qualification. That is not
VA- but cleverly exploiting people. Our program is as SP wrote in his
mission statement "to undo the vicious propensity of exploitaion of
one group over another by birthright OR VESTED INTERESTS"
Our program is to become selfless servants of the vaisnavas. That is
our qualification! You speak about qualification. Our only
qualification, that has anything to do with our real nature, is das
das anudas. It may be expressed in different ways according to our
different abilities and different time place and circumstance- but
that is the essence, without which all qualifications come to zero. VA
is not mundane, but a vehicle for service so that we can come out of
mundane consciousness, by lovingly cooperating to serve the Lord. As
it is used in the Lord's service, it is transcendental. As it is used
in the service of maya, the propensity to exploit the material world
and all in it, it is mundane. It depends on your motivation and
vision.
SP said "your love for me will be shown by how you cooperate" and you
propose that loving cooperation is "nonsense"? Really? I wonder how
you would propose we love SP if not by his own recommendation. Hmm?
I am not suggesting that sudras become ksatriyas or brahmanas, even
circumstantially, but if there is no one there to counsel a confused
devotee, or no one speaking up when there is neglect of SP's
instructions, then we are all behooved to protect SP's mission from
degradation. And such arguments should be accepted even from so-called
sudras. We are warned never to consider a vaisnava according to his
caste, for this reason- at any time, he may go beyond his caste, as he
is not caste-conscious, but Krsna conscious. He may not be entirely
purely so, hence the need for VA, but his desires are to be so, and do
all he can to serve the Lord as needed... "the devotee will always do
the needful": SP
If it is about coveting the position of brahmana or ksatriya, that is
a different matter altogether. But if for service, one
circumstantially takes up the role of another, considering himself a
servant of the servant and not a designation, then the purpose of VA
is served. "One should not follow rules and regulations for the sake
of following, neither should one give them up whimsically" - or for
personal ambition. Hope this makes sense, if not, lets discuss.
Sensibly.
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
niscala dasi
sudras is that the latter are devotees of the Lord. It is the latter
that can become a brahmana if initiated by a vaisnava spiritual
master, "just as bell metal can be changed into gold." and certainly
all or nearly all our so-called sudras will accept a spiritual
master...
On the other hand, modern workers are extremely unlikely to become
brahmanas, as for one thing , if we are determined to focus on
externals, they are paid, and a brahmana will not accept payment for
service- he wants it to be free from the profiteering propensity. On
the other hand, any pure-hearted sudra in VA- and VA is intended for
the purpose to become pure-hearted, can be a spiritual master, by Sri
Chaitanya's own assertion. Have you read any of our books at all? Just
wondering, thats all. It appears not. Maybe you don't have any. They
can be purchased at any ISKCON centre. Caste conscious persons will
not read them, as they come in a parampara of individuals who preached
against caste-consciousness.
Greg Jay
On Oct 7, 2010, at 10:27 PM, DRousse wrote:
> I anticipate that the varnashrama culture that we establish will have
> differences from what was practiced earlier, simply because people can only
> do what they can do, and what the government will presently allow us to do.
I agree. However this is one advantage of Virtual Varnashram. You can test a scenario without money, you can put people to death and have other punishments that would not be possible in the real world. You can even simulate karma and rebirth. Set up a society as it is stated in sastra exactly. Then you can change it in the ways in which it has to be changed to be possible in the real world and see if this destroys some or all of the advantages or whether it makes no appreciable difference. In this way you can know what things are absolutely necessary for the system to work in a modern world or how less good the system is when practiced with modern restrictions.
> The question of money is a case in point. In a transition phase we may well
> use money since that is what everyone is accustomed to and knows. But it may
> be a private currency instead of the government fiat currency.
Interesting idea. Monopoly money??? Prabhupada bucks??? Would it be backed by some commodity? Would it be convertible?
I have suggested that the platform for Virtual Varnashram should be Second Life. Second Life is a platform that has it's own currency and is actually traded and is convertible to actual real world currencies. Thus Linden Dollars (the currency of Second Life named after Linden Labs who created and maintain the Second Life platform) would be the currency of Virtual Varnashram. The advantage of this is that once a Virtual Varnashram scenario were perfected it could be opened to the public to experience and it could even make money and be a self sustaining model showcasing the system of Varnashram to anyone worldwide who has a computer and internet connection. This is an awesome way to spread the concepts of Varnashram if done authentically.
> Education is another thing. My understanding is that the sudras were
> previously not educated, and not allowed to read shastra.
They are educated in the sense that they can be apprenticed. In the sense that they do not learn Sanskrit which is the medium of the dvijas in gurukula they are not educated. That does not mean they can't learn other subjects. Even very technical workers can be sudras. Thus they need technical training.
There is no reason not to allow sudras to read sastra.
> We cannot follow
> that, as the government requires everyone to have education, and certainly
> we will also encourage everyone to read Srila Prabhupada's books, and chant
> Hare Krishna as much as possible.
Of course basic requirements of the governments have to be followed. Naturally reading, writing, and other basic skill are compulsory. But even beyond that technical skills can be taught to sudras too. They are not taught leadership skills because they are not naturally leaders.
> I think we need to plan for an evolution, to take people from where they
> "are at" today to where the society should go in the future.
Yes, that requires a staged approach. We should first understand the limit for which it will be possible.
Then work towards that utopia by phased steps. Perhaps even different communities can represent different stages so that people who are not born into the system can adjust or find a level of commitment they feel comfortable with.
> Chart the course, and point the ship in the right direction. We won't be able to
> captain very long, but we must set the course properly for others to follow.
>
> Samba is making a very important point, which I also made in my Revolt of
> the Elites, that our devotees must bring the mode of goodness into our
> relationships, particularly in terms of protection of the praja. (Sorry, but
> I continue to have to refer to my earlier writing, but if you would read
> that it would help move the discussion along).
I'm trying to catch up on all the posts. And I have not yet downloaded or accessed the downloads you suggested.
> In my book I also point out how the powers-that-be decided to change the
> culture in order to maximally exploit people. So we see in the world today
> the extreme exploitation and throw away people that result from this system.
> Example: Bangladeshi garment workers being paid 5 Rs per hour, forced to
> work 18 hour days, 7 days a week, no breaks during work, fired if they get
> pregnant, and fired if they organize to protest for a decent wage. In order
> to survive every member of the family has to work like a slave from the time
> they are 7 or 8 years old. Walt Disney world pays 1/2 of 1% for labor for
> t-shirts and other apparel that they sell for $12 or more. They could easily
> double the wage, or even triple it and feel no pressure. Eisner the
> president of Walt Disney makes more than $60,000 AN HOUR! But when these
> women finally did get organized Disney shut down the factory and sent the
> orders elsewhere. That most Americans do not see such things is only a
> matter of time. The demons runs this world and they are so envious that they
> don't want to see anybody happy, and as Srila Prabhupada has told us, they
> are even more happy when they see people suffering.
I understand your point however in Vedic society there were also rich men. So I do not agree that Varnashram is totally free of worker exploitation, neither it is communism. It is a benevolent monarchy which many compassionate socialist aspects.
> IF these people had the choice to stay in those circumstances, or were given
> the choice to do work that they enjoyed, were able to have time for
> themselves and to be with their families, were secure in their housing and
> maintenance, even though they had no "salary," or couldn't vote (they don't
> get to vote in their factory either, and as far as the government votes are
> concerned, how is that helping them now? It isn't. The government gives them
> no succor either) that would be a no-brainer! Which would you call slavery?
> Read the chapter, The Economics of Passion for the full story.
OK, will do.
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 7, 2010, at 11:37 PM, niscala dasi wrote:
> I am wondering if you have read any of SP's books
Don't get all ad hominem on me please. You know as well as I do that we have both read Prabhupada's books.
You offer no proof of your statement from his books though. Please offer it before launching into an ad hominem.
> - in so many
> purports he criticizes the caste system as based on exploitation, and
> VA based on loving cooperation- as you wrote:
>
>> VA is a material social system. It is not based on loving cooperation. Where did you get such nonsense?
>
> If it is a material social system not based on loving cooperation, but
> something else material, which could only be exploitation, then why oh
> why introduce it???
I didn't use the word exploitation you did.
The original concept of Varnashram comes from the famous Purusha Sukta in the Vedas. It mentions society as analogous to a human body.
Brahmano'sya mukham asit
bahu rajanya krtah
uru tadasya yad vaishyah
padbhyam sudro'ajayatah
If you do not know this verse then you do not know the origin of the concept of Varna.
It means. The brahmins are his head, the kings his arms, the vaishyas his stomach and the sudras his feet.
Thus the relationship between the Varnas is not one of loving cooperation but symbiosis between different organs of the Vedic social body.
The head does not love the feet, arms or stomach. It exists symbiotically with those other organs. Each does rely on the others for actions and products it cannot produce by itself.
I would call that mutual exploitation. Naturally cooperation is another term for this. But loving or not it is a natural and necessary symbiotic relationship.
The story is also given by Prabhupada about how the head, arms and legs went on strike because they considered the stomach to be lazy.
Finally they all realized that they had to all cooperate to give food to the stomach for getting energy for themselves to survive.
In the analogy in the Veda the brahmins as intellectuals guide the society, the Ksatriyas protect the praja, the Vaishyas arrange for the production of necessities like food, etc. and the sudras provide power and work for the whole system to move just as feet do to a body.
> Indeed we have it already in the west, as
> evidenced by your examples of how corporate managers recruit their
> employees, based on their qualifications. Surely, oh surely, we want
> more than that???
Should we recruit unqualified persons for jobs? That makes no sense.
> By your examples, and your own testimony you have
> indicated you consider VA material,
You should read Prabhupada's books yourself. VA is material. It is a social system. Like communism, socialism, capitalism, marxism, leninism, monarchy, etc. The only difference is that is was designed by the Lord not a mundane philosopher. It is the perfect material social system aimed at pleasing the Lord.
> only for putting qualified people
> in qualified positions. Hello- we have that already!
Not exactly. We do not have proper Varnas neither do we have proper acceptance of Ashramas.
> Yet I agree with you- qualified persons should go in qualified
> positions- that just makes sense.
Then do not waste my time disagreeing with me as you have above. You seem confused. Perhaps first you need to understand what VA is. All these things. Varnas and Ashramas are material designations. Upadhis. The atma is not a brahmin nor a brahmachari. Mahaprabhu has stated this. Naham vipro etc. So these designations apply only to the body. Thus they are material. The system that organizes them is also material.
> But the thing must revolve around
> SP's instructions to "make Vrindavan"- mould ourselves into the mood
> of the gopis and gopas, always pushing others to serve the Lord first,
> cooperating with others to make their service pleasing to the Lord,
> rather than showing off how wonderfully we serve Him ourselves.
The above is off topic. It means practically nothing. Has nothing to do with VA.
> It is
> unthinkable that VA is not based on loving cooperation, but something
> mundane, material.
See above my explanation from the Vedas.
> We have that in the west already. Go join any
> corporation- the recruitment is based on qualification. That is not
> VA- but cleverly exploiting people. Our program is as SP wrote in his
> mission statement "to undo the vicious propensity of exploitaion of
> one group over another by birthright OR VESTED INTERESTS"
You seem to have no idea what VA actually is. You simply state sentimental conclusions without any sastra.
> Our program is to become selfless servants of the vaisnavas. That is
> our qualification! You speak about qualification.
VA is about material qualifications. For example if one is a worker he can still be a Vaisnava. But if he is not an intellectual he can't be a brahmin. That is a head job as is shown in the Veda.
One may be a nice Vaisnava but not strong or able to defend or defeat physically enemies, then he cannot be a ksatriya.
One may be a nice Vaisnava but a hopeless businessman then he cannot be a Vaishya.
All the rest are servants, workers, serfs and slaves, but they can still be nice Vaisnavas.
So above all the qualifications of each Varna are material. All Varnas can be Vaisnavas thus what separates them is not the spiritual differences but the material qualifications.
If you can't understand this then perhaps you should listen some more, instead of giving your own theories. Listen to the Vedic injunctions that must be accepted. See the original concept of VA above. You cannot refute the Veda.
> Our only
> qualification, that has anything to do with our real nature, is das
> das anudas.
We are all das. So then no distinction. So then no different Varnas. Then no different Ashrams. Thus no VA.
Nonsense. You are confused about what is material and what is spiritual.
> It may be expressed in different ways according to our
> different abilities and different time place and circumstance- but
> that is the essence, without which all qualifications come to zero. VA
> is not mundane, but a vehicle for service so that we can come out of
> mundane consciousness, by lovingly cooperating to serve the Lord. As
> it is used in the Lord's service, it is transcendental. As it is used
> in the service of maya, the propensity to exploit the material world
> and all in it, it is mundane. It depends on your motivation and
> vision.
>
> SP said "your love for me will be shown by how you cooperate" and you
> propose that loving cooperation is "nonsense"? Really?
You are twisting my words. loving cooperation is not nonsense but equating it with VA is certainly nonsense.
> I wonder how
> you would propose we love SP if not by his own recommendation. Hmm?
Irrelevant to VA.
> I am not suggesting that sudras become ksatriyas or brahmanas, even
> circumstantially, but if there is no one there to counsel a confused
> devotee, or no one speaking up when there is neglect of SP's
> instructions, then we are all behooved to protect SP's mission from
> degradation.
Alarmist claptrap!
> And such arguments should be accepted even from so-called
> sudras. We are warned never to consider a vaisnava according to his
> caste,
No, that is not true. We take material Varnas and Ashramas of Vaisnavas into consideration in so many social situations.
You have misunderstood and not quote the exact meaning. We must not consider a Vaisnava as an ordinary person or of being lower or higher in spiritual advancement by his class or ashram.
But we certainly behave differently towards Vaisnavas of different classes and asrhams and genders. These are all material designations but we do observe the differences and act socially differently.
> for this reason- at any time, he may go beyond his caste, as he
> is not caste-conscious, but Krsna conscious. He may not be entirely
> purely so, hence the need for VA, but his desires are to be so, and do
> all he can to serve the Lord as needed... "the devotee will always do
> the needful": SP
VA is not for pure devotees. It is for the rest of us. It is for devotees with material designations to work and live together in the best possible material social system.
> If it is about coveting the position of brahmana or ksatriya, that is
> a different matter altogether. But if for service, one
> circumstantially takes up the role of another, considering himself a
> servant of the servant and not a designation, then the purpose of VA
> is served. "One should not follow rules and regulations for the sake
> of following, neither should one give them up whimsically" - or for
> personal ambition. Hope this makes sense, if not, lets discuss.
> Sensibly.
I suggest you quote from sastra. Secondly that you self analyze and accept a particular Varna. Third that you try to read Prabhupada's books more carefully. Forth that you come up with some more intelligent arguments actually based on sastra that have something to do with VA and finally that you learn the difference between Vaisnava dharma and Varnashrama dharma. The first is completely spiritual the other is a material social system created by the Lord for those with different material gunas and karmas to live and work together for attaining the four purusharthas or goals of human existence. Kama, Artha, Dharma and Moksha. Vaisnavism is about bhakti and Krsna prema and direct seva of Lord Krsna. VA is about indirect service to the Lord by following His social system and advancing from one Varna to the next and ultimately attaining moksha. They are different things. You are mingling them and confusing one with the other.
sincerely
GKD
Greg Jay
You are still confused.
I assume that therefore you cannot commit to a Varna and will not be able to post soon.
You are not listening to my explanations. All we get from you are the same old arguments that everyone is a Vaisnava Brahmin.
We have heard this for the last 30+ years from those who deny VA.
If you can't accept distinctions then you can't accept VA. Good luck to you then.
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam wrote:BUT...........FIRST, there needs to be a Daivi Varnashram Village forthe new born and adults to participate in.Actually I completely disagree. Dvaraka was a Varnashram Society and it was a city. So there is no reason why Varnashram principles cannot be practiced by everyone in and where they live and work right here and now.
And Gaura Keshava Prabhu, with your position, actually I completely
disagree. It is my position that *proper* varnashrama cannot be
practiced right here and now by people where they live and work.
Asuric varnashrama can and is, however, being practiced.
I say that from an economics perspective, but there are other
impediments that may also be discovered. Let me give some examples.
We all understand that the ksatriya is charged with giving people
protection. That does not mean simply swinging a sword, or giving
protection from thieves. It means shelter. A house, a place to live.
It means that people had no need to work 10-18 hours a day simply to
pay rent, to maintain the body. Their minimum maintenance at least was
a given, freeing them to focus on their duty. So where is the ksatriya
who today is giving such protection such shelter?
Next, a vaisya is a person who can create wealth from the resources
provided by nature.
Give him a forest and he will produce lumber,
furniture, and perhaps houses. Give him a field and he will create
foodstuffs. Give him cows and he will increase the production of dairy
products, etc. It is important to understand that in the spiritual
culture, the object of endeavor is the thing that is produced, not
something else, as is the case today. This gives every object its
proper value in the culture. When we deviate from this principle then
the value of objects (and people) becomes distorted and perverted,
giving us the “race to the bottom” that we have today.
We take it that the business of a vaisya is to produce money, but that
is *NOT* the proper objective of a vaisya, and I strongly emphasize
the word NOT.
In today’s world however, everyone works for money, and
money is the object of every businessman, many of whom are sudras
simply interested in their own sense gratification as you have already
stated. When money becomes valued above all else then everything is
seen as a means to that end, to the end of increased wealth, including
the environment, the customers, the competition, and especially the
employees, distorting the value of all of these, especially of people.
Those who cannot add to the bottom line are discarded as useless, so
that we have over 1 billion of such useless people today.
But in modern society a proper vaisya cannot compete because everyone else is
cutting their expenses to the bone.
How are they going to do their
duty to see to it that his praja, those that work for him, are
completely provided for?
How will our vaisyas do so in the present
context? I contend that they cannot.
Brahmanas, the intellectual class have to a great degree become
prostitutes, selling their “valued” opinions in order to keep their
position.
See what happens to whistleblowers whose consciousness will
not allow them to participate in the cheating. They are blacklisted,
and in many cases killed. Who among them is living independently?
Even sudras cannot properly do their dharma in the modern context
because survival is made so onerous, if not impossible, for most.
Consider that at least 25% of all children are dependent on food
stamps to have proper nourishment, what to speak of homeless families.
If a sudra is not given proper sustenance then they cannot think about
properly doing their duty; they are thinking about how to survive in
whatever way they can.
In my understanding a proper varnashrama culture can only be
established in a village setting because that setting affords an
economic alternative to the oppressiveness of money. If money were so
necessary or important for a properly functioning spiritual culture
surely Manu would have given this instruction (and it is certainly not
beyond his ability to come up with the idea). But he has not.
WHEN we have established a proper functioning varnashrama culture in
the villages, then urban areas that are functioning according to
proper varnashrama are possible, because their support will come from
a proper varnashrama culture and the values they live by can also then
be established.
If we truly understood the debilitating influence of money, and the
evil that it fosters in today’s world, we would abandon it post haste.
Those who are not educated in the evils of this “mechanism of
convenience” please view some of the videos on my website, under the
link “Your Economic Education.”
For further elucidation on this topic please see my book “Lessons in
Spiritual Economics from the Bhagavad-gita – Part 1 Understanding and
Solving the Economic Problem,” available from my website www.spiritual-econ.com.
niscala dasi
satisfaction of the Supreme Lord " SB 1.2.3 pp
we both agree that VA is about cooperation, as you have said that it
is like the limbs of the body cooperating, but when I said it was
about "loving cooperation" you objected and called it "nonsense". It
appears that it is the "loving" part that you are objecting to, but
Rupa Goswami speaks of "loving exchanges" between devotees, including
revealing their minds in absolute confidence, and giving and accepting
prasadam. So, since we are supposed to be loving, and since VA is
about cooperation and since SP said "your love for me will be shown by
how you cooperate" then what is your objection? Why did you call it
nonsense?
The difference between bodily limbs and people is that limbs cannot
love each other. People can. We learn to love the Lord by loving His
devotees. In fact, there is no difference. SP explains : "Her
affection for the Pandavas and the Vrsnis is not out of the range of
devotional service, because the service of the Lord and the service of
His devotees is identical" Here SP equates service with affection.
That is why it is called devotional service. Love is the natural
exchange between devotees, and therefore cooperation in VA has to be
loving. Ideally, or at least dutiful.
That varnashrama is not to be used for exploitation is explained in
the above quoted purport.
You wrote: It is the perfect material social system aimed at pleasing
the Lord.
yes and when it is aimed thus, it becomes transcendental, just like a
vehicle that is used in the Lord's service. It is material but when
used in the Lord's service, it is transcendental. The lord is lovingly
served by lovingly serving His devotees. That is the atmosphere in the
spiritual world, not just symbiosis, but feeling. "Make Vrindavan"
That you think you can reduce VA to a computer game, means that you
have no idea of the part that love plays in it. I am wondering,
therefore, if you are confusing general VA with VA amongst vaisnavas.
Outside the devotee community, it may be symbiosis, devoid of feeling,
like an exchange of services. Love goes beyond that duty, to
responsibility, to care, to concern, to going beyond the call of duty.
Usually, it is the ksatriya's duty to protect from harm, to give
shelter, to give charity and so on, but any devotee can do it, if the
need arises "a devotee does the needful".
Therefore Rupa Goswami defines one of the six loving exchanges between
devotees as giving gifts- he does not say- if the devotee is within
the ksatriya varna, he may give gifts, or if he is within the brahmana
varna, you may reveal your mind in confidence to him- there is no
limit imposed on that instruction. A sudra can lovingly give the gift
of his time to listen to a devotee with problems. A ksatriya will
lovingly help a sudra finish his work so he can get back to his sick
wife. Without such fluidity of varna, for the purpose of rendering
vaisnava seva, one simply follows rules and regulations for the sake
of following them, and .thus indeed VA does become a material thing,
devoid of the sense of loving service to the devotees as the primary
aim, and thereafter symbiosis of limbs is all that it is. So, yes, you
are right- IF VA is simply a symbiosis of limbs without a sense of
devotion, as you say it is, objecting to the use of the word "loving'
as you are doing, it is material, and is the same, exactly as the
machinery of capitalism- the worker benefitting from being paid, and
his work benefitting the boss. The downfall of such a system is
explained by Dhanesvara in 'Revolt of the Elites"
>>SP's instructions to "make Vrindavan"- mould ourselves into the
mood
> > of the gopis and gopas, always pushing others to serve the Lord first,
> > cooperating with others to make their service pleasing to the Lord,
> > rather than showing off how wonderfully we serve Him ourselves.
>
> The above is off topic. It means practically nothing. Has nothing to do with VA.
connection with creating a varnashrama village community. SP made the
connection. That is sambandha- connecting everything with the Lord.
Turn a mundane thing, VA into a spiritual thing by consciousness of
loving service, rendered selfelssly, without expectation of gain.
It is amazing how you can read the books and only observe the external
feautres of that which is described within them. The dynamic between
devotees is loving! It is not and never will be a computer game!
>>>Vaisnavism is about bhakti and Krsna prema and direct seva of Lord Krsna. VA is about indirect service to the Lord by following His social system and advancing from one Varna to the next and ultimately attaining moksha. They are different things. You are mingling them and confusing one with the other.
Lord Via His devotees. Now it is crystal clear to me that you are
confusing VA of materialistic society, which at most results in
moksha, which is hell for the devotee, with VA among vaisnavas, which
serves the purpose of devotion to the Lord and His devotees, and
following which one gets all perfection. "but even if he remains a
sudra and does accordingly he will get the same position as a devotee"
"Even as a sudra, he is vaisnava, he can get all perfection" All
perfection means not just moksha, which is only one type of
liberation, the one we do not want!. So, SP ordered his disciples to
take up VA was he giving their aim as moksha? No. In Bhaktyloka,
varnashrama is recommended as a solution to anarthas for devotees,
particularly prayasa and pratistha: "making varnashrama favourable to
devotional service, the householder should pass his life in devotional
service, free from prayasa" So VA is only material when divorced from
the service of the Lord "all one's occupational duties are so much
trouble if not utilized in the service of the Lord" and when engaged
in devotional service, one's occupational duties become devotional
service, become transcendental.
niscala dasi
able to post soon.
>
have said that already. My ashrama is grhastha. I write books and
articles and discuss philosophy, but my main occupation that I desire
to engage fullt-time in, though a bit hard in rented premises, is
growing produce. When I see the need, however, I write, I speak, I
listen, and as far as I can, I counsel, and if charity is needed, I
will give. I write poems. I follow Rupa Goswami's instruction as to
the six loving exchanges between devotees, as much as I am able. I do
that not to shirk from my occupation as a vaisya, but to render
service to the vaisnavas. Why are you suggesting I should not be able
to post any more? Just because I do not agree with you that VA is
material, and its limit is moksha, even if devotees are using the
occupational duties in it, in service to the Lord?
It is the brahmanas duty to write, not a vaisyas, yet I am guessing
that there are many on this forum who would define themselves as
vaisyas, but they write, because they have a burning desire to see
SPO's vision of VA and "make Vrindavan" come to fruition. Would you
have all of them silenced? Or just me, because we disagree?
Greg Jay
On Oct 6, 2010, at 11:05 PM, DRousse wrote:
> I appreciate the fact that not all members of the society will be farmers,
> but I would like to highlight the fact that varnashrama culture is not a
> consumer culture. It is a production-exchange culture economically.
Look I agree that far too much useless stuff is produced and consumed by most westerners today. But I still think producing excess and having an abundant supply of useful goods is not a bad thing but a good thing.
> Srila Prabhupada gives us a very good one-liner: "produce only what you need; use
> only what you produce."
Can you give me the exact quote and context?
> Besides food there are many, many things that need
> to be produced and this requires the participation of many, many people, who
> are not engaged directly in agriculture, but whose activity depends on the
> earth.
The production of ideas does not depend on the Earth neither does other scientific enquiry. I agree that much that is produced depends on the Earth. But somethings do not.
> If I am a brick maker, baker, basket weaver, weaver, tailor, produce
> incense, make clothes, make houses, make windows, or make just about
> anything, my work depends on the earth (where else can our 'stuff' come
> from?).
Naturally to produce goods you need material elements which come from the Earth (Seas, Air, whatever). However intellectual, scientific and service industries also produce tangible results which don't necessarily rely on material elements.
Examples.
A scientist produces a theory which either adds to knowledge or has some practical use.
A person provides some service for another.
> Since the production of these things is dependent on the earth, it
> is natural for people so engaged to live in the village where the raw
> materials are located, and where most consumption will take place. (use only
> what you produce)
Your assumption is that a Village can produce everything that it consumes and needs. That is possible in a very limited agrarian model. However no Village is going to be able to produce more technical products that people are accustomed to using these days. Are you suggesting that your model Village will not allow anything in it that cannot be made there?
If so then you will have to do without a lot of things.
I can see food and simple clothing and some other products of cottage industries being easily made in most Villages.
But:
Will you allow books if paper, ink, printing presses are not manufactured in the Village?
Will you allow money if it can't be minted in the Village?
Will you allow any medicine which cannot be made in the Village?
Will you allow professionals like Doctors who have learned their trade outside the Village?
etc.
In other words your proposal basically is like the TV Show Survivor.
Take a bunch of people and drop them in some remote place where they can get NO assistance from the outside world and organize them with the idea that they should survive and thrive.
If you do this then there are very few people and places that would allow your group to survive for any length of time let alone thrive.
I think rather than reject all technological advances they simply have to be used to further the survival ability for the group to thrive.
Your plan seems to be to reject any technological advance and return to only an agrarian ONLY subsistence level situation.
I don't agree that a modern application of VA must be like this.
Your suggestion is basically akin to telling devotees "Let's all become Ultra Amish"
No electricity, no phones, no computers, no books, no cds, no pictures unless you paint them, no manufactured or processed goods of any kind that you can't make locally.
I understand that some people feel this radical approach is needed for true happiness. But I just do not agree, and neither do I think that it will be at all popular.
Many devotees suggest (you seem to have suggested this) that the present Global Social Systems will very soon all fail and we will all be forced for survival to take up such simplistic lifestyles.
However the problem with such notions is that even if a Global Social Systems Crash were to occur your devotee village would soon be overwhelmed by greedy karmis with guns and other technologies lording it over the devotees. Thus ONLY if there is no Global Social Systems Crash can you be sure that such a model Varnashram village can survive. It can't actually survive if there is a Crash, unless it is either very well defended or completely isolated. Which brings me back to the TV Survival show comparison.
Let us face the facts. Creating a model Varnashram showcase village which is self sufficient in many basic products is a nice idea. But the idea that the world is going to adopt that model and reject all modern technology is ludicrous. As long as the technology exists people are going to use it, and if they use it in Krsna conscious ways there is nothing wrong with that. If and when the technology does not exist then people are not going to adopt the old ways and be satisfied with them. They are still going to try to re-introduce those technological advancements. And in the case of some global breakdown in society that many devotees (foolishly in my opinion) pray for, the non-devotees are much better prepared to take over than the devotees. In such a case, might will be right, and it will not be a case of non-devotees peacefully asking to work with devotees on devotee's self sufficient farming and cottage industrial communities.
> No, it is not farmashrama, but the village is the appropriate setting for
> most of the activity of life. Cities historically generally sprang up at the
> cross-roads of trading routes, and their support came from the trade of
> products that are manufactured in the villages.
OK, you are saying that cities came about because those in the villages produced more than they needed and began to trade the excess produce. So your solution is not to produce excess enough to trade and you won't have cities. Is that right?
> What other reason are there
> for cities to exist in the varnashrama conception?
Are you saying that Dvaraka existed because people in the villages were not following VA properly and only producing what they needed?
> It is only in an
> artificial money economy that cities are seemingly independent of the
> country/village,
I don't see Dvaraka or any city as independent of food and basic production which occurs in a rural area. Cities and rural communities are symbiotic, interdependent. I think your point is that the rural community can survive without the city, but the city cannot survive without the rural community. I agree. But does this mean that we have to have an "either or" civilization?
Pol Pot and the Kymer Rouge tried what you seem to be suggesting in Cambodia. And look how that turned out.
What is the difference in your plan from his? Perhaps you would not do it so extremely as him but your goal is the same.
Turn everyone out of the cities, stop using money and simply live (or die) off the land. Reject all technology (except in order to do this Pol Pot had to do it at gunpoint!)
If in order to get modern people to adopt this lifestyle we have seen Pol Pot resort to mass genocide. Does it not give you an idea of the unpopularity of this idea?
How do you suggest people be persuaded to swallow this bitter medicine?
My much more practical suggestion is not to reject technology but to dovetail it carefully. This is why my practical suggestion is to cultivate VA ideas and culture in both urban and rural situations.
> and Srila Prabhupada indirectly advised us to prepare for
> the time when that artificial economy will fail (and it will).
See above my arguments as to why this is, in fact, not desirable.
> That is one of my motivations, and I think should be one of our motivations.
If devotees truly believe in such stories of immanent civilizational doom then we should be first and foremost speaking of making and training a paramilitary able to protect any community of devotees that is established. Without that, what is the point of creating a VA community? This alone is a good argument for utilizing technology. Or is Samba going to protect your VA Village with his archery against non-devotees with guns and bullets???
ys
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 8, 2010, at 11:50 AM, niscala dasi wrote:
> "the highest perfection of VAD is to cooperate jointly for the
> satisfaction of the Supreme Lord " SB 1.2.3 pp
>
> we both agree that VA is about cooperation, as you have said that it
> is like the limbs of the body cooperating, but when I said it was
> about "loving cooperation" you objected and called it "nonsense".
Your quotation proves my point. Loving has nothing to do with it.
Each Varna desires particular goals of human life. Purusharthas. They achieve them by cooperation with the other members of society.
This is simply a symbiotic relationship. Love does not enter into the equation.
> It appears that it is the "loving" part that you are objecting to, but
> Rupa Goswami speaks of "loving exchanges" between devotees, including
> revealing their minds in absolute confidence, and giving and accepting
> prasadam.
This is Vaisnavism not VA. Vaisnavism is NOT VA.
VA is not Vaisnavism. You are still confused about the difference because you falsely accept them to be the same thing.
You can practice Vaisnavism without VA. You can practice VA without Vaisnavism. Therefore they are not the same thing.
Now I agree that you can practice both together as well. And that is what we want. But to understand what VA is, first you must understand what it is NOT.
It is NOT Vaisnavism.
> So, since we are supposed to be loving, and since VA is
> about cooperation and since SP said "your love for me will be shown by
> how you cooperate" then what is your objection? Why did you call it
> nonsense?
See above.
> The difference between bodily limbs and people is that limbs cannot
> love each other. People can. We learn to love the Lord by loving His
> devotees. In fact, there is no difference. SP explains : "Her
> affection for the Pandavas and the Vrsnis is not out of the range of
> devotional service, because the service of the Lord and the service of
> His devotees is identical" Here SP equates service with affection.
> That is why it is called devotional service. Love is the natural
> exchange between devotees, and therefore cooperation in VA has to be
> loving.
Irrelevant to the topic of VA.
> Ideally, or at least dutiful.
Yes, VA is about duty NOT LOVE.
If Arjuna acted out of LOVE for his relatives he would have gone to the forest and not fought. But he acted out of Duty because that was his Dharma. It had nothing to do with love.
That is why all your nonsense about VA being about love is irrelevant.
> That varnashrama is not to be used for exploitation is explained in
> the above quoted purport.
The Duty of the Varnas is not to exploit others. It is not due to love but it is their duty.
> You wrote: It is the perfect material social system aimed at pleasing
> the Lord.
>
> yes and when it is aimed thus, it becomes transcendental, just like a
> vehicle that is used in the Lord's service. It is material but when
> used in the Lord's service, it is transcendental.
Word juggelry. You need to read Caitanya Sikshamrta and understand the difference between mukya bhakti and gauna bhakti.
Example. Chanting the holy name is mukhya or direct primary bhakti. It is a primary spiritual activity. An example of gauna or secondary bhakti is taking a bath in the early morning. Taking a bath in the early morning is not inherently bhakti, but if one does it in order to no fall asleep while chanting one's japa of the holy name then it is considered as assisting bhakti, secondary bhakti. Thus VA is like that. It is a material system like taking a bath. If it help us to perform the primary bhakti of say for example chanting, then it is accepted as secondary bhakti or assisting to bhakti. But VA in and of itself is not bhakti or spiritual. Just as taking a bath is not inherently bhakti or spiritual.
If by introducing VA a person is less engaged in primary bhakti (9 types of bhakti, sravanam, kirtanam, etc) then it is not worth introducing.
The reason for introducing VA is ONLY for assisting people to be more engaged in primary bhakti.
However even if people do not perform any primary bhakti at all if they dutifully follow the VA system they advance to the next higher Varna in their next life and ultimately attain liberation after they live as perfect brahmins. By doing this they slightly please the Lord because that is His social system. Of course they please Him more and directly by primary bhakti, but many people have trouble taking ONLY to primary bhakti practices without having their material needs and desires fulfilled. That is what VA is for. Fulfilling their material needs and desires in a non-sinful as possible way and allowing them more time for primary bhakti practices.
> The lord is lovingly
> served by lovingly serving His devotees. That is the atmosphere in the
> spiritual world, not just symbiosis, but feeling. "Make Vrindavan"
> That you think you can reduce VA to a computer game, means that you
> have no idea of the part that love plays in it. I am wondering,
> therefore, if you are confusing general VA with VA amongst vaisnavas.
First try to understand VA then you can add Vaisnavism later. You and I and we all know about Vaisnavism. Try to forget what you know about Vaisnavism because it is obviously confusing you. Just try to understand VA. Then later you can amalgamate the two. If not you will remain confused.
> Outside the devotee community, it may be symbiosis, devoid of feeling,
> like an exchange of services. Love goes beyond that duty, to
> responsibility, to care, to concern, to going beyond the call of duty.
> Usually, it is the ksatriya's duty to protect from harm, to give
> shelter, to give charity and so on, but any devotee can do it, if the
> need arises "a devotee does the needful".
More confusion!
> Therefore Rupa Goswami defines one of the six loving exchanges between
> devotees as giving gifts- he does not say- if the devotee is within
> the ksatriya varna, he may give gifts, or if he is within the brahmana
> varna, you may reveal your mind in confidence to him- there is no
> limit imposed on that instruction. A sudra can lovingly give the gift
> of his time to listen to a devotee with problems. A ksatriya will
> lovingly help a sudra finish his work so he can get back to his sick
> wife. Without such fluidity of varna,
The ksatriya has not become a sudra for a couple of minutes. If he does such a thing it is acceptable.
Prabhupada said. "I may sweep but it does not make me a sweeper."
Your idea of "fluidity of Varna" suggests that one minute I am a ksatriya and the next a sudra.
That is just ludicrous speculation and is totally agains VA.
Varna is according to guna and karma. Guna does not change instantly and then change back instantly. Karma is mainly from previous lives. The karma in the form of actions in this life are mainly one in nature. Yes, a person of a higher class can temporarily do an activity usually reserved for a lower class but it does not mean he adopts that lower varna for a few minutes, days or whatever.
Since I have explained this before I see you either don't understand or refuse to understand. In either case I will not repeat the same arguments to you because you are closed minded and confused.
> for the purpose of rendering
> vaisnava seva, one simply follows rules and regulations for the sake
> of following them, and .thus indeed VA does become a material thing,
> devoid of the sense of loving service to the devotees as the primary
> aim, and thereafter symbiosis of limbs is all that it is. So, yes, you
> are right- IF VA is simply a symbiosis of limbs without a sense of
> devotion, as you say it is, objecting to the use of the word "loving'
> as you are doing, it is material,
It is material, Thanks for the admission.
The rest of your email was off topic and irrelevant. So I have deleted it.
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 8, 2010, at 12:00 PM, niscala dasi wrote:
> I assume that therefore you cannot commit to a Varna and will not be
> able to post soon.
>>
> who is now making adhomenim accusations?
That is a statement of fact not an ad hominem. I have checked your profile and there is nothing in it at all. So my sentence is simply a matter of fact.
> I am a committed vaisya, I
> have said that already.
I never read that. Dhanesvara asked everyone of post their VARNA and ASHRAMA in their Google profile. (Although I see Dhanesvara himself has not committed to a Varna either having stated that he is of mixed brahmin, ksatriya and sudra varnas.)
Samba made a posting where he introduced himself in an email but says he prefers not to edit his profile. I do not see the reason for this.
You however have also not edited your Google profile and as far as I have read have not committed to a Varna.
You just now suggest that you are a Vaishya. This means you must own some land or business? Is that correct?
If you are only a sharecropper (growing food on rented land) then you are a sudra.
Vaishyas are leaders who own their businesses and their property and they engage themselves and others in those occupations.
I guess it may be acceptable that a Vaishya sharecrops but normally they own their own land and the people who work it are sudras.
Is growing vegetables your only means of material support?
> My ashrama is grhastha.
What does your husband do for a living? A husband's varna will also reflect the Varna of the wife. It is normal that both have the same varna. However it is possible for them to have different varnas. In which case if the husband is of a higher varna then the marriage is called anuloma and if the wife is of a higher varna it is called pratiloma.
So what Varna is your husband?
> I write books and
> articles and discuss philosophy, but my main occupation that I desire
> to engage fullt-time in, though a bit hard in rented premises, is
> growing produce. When I see the need, however, I write, I speak, I
> listen, and as far as I can, I counsel, and if charity is needed, I
> will give.
Have you read in any sastra that Vaishyas are supposed to give others counsel? Do you counsel on growing vegetables or business? Or on other things?
> I do
> that not to shirk from my occupation as a vaisya, but to render
> service to the vaisnavas. Why are you suggesting I should not be able
> to post any more?
I never suggested it. On October 6th Dhanesvara who owns and started this group wrote this (in case you didn't read it):
Dear Devotees,
Gaura Keshava's suggestion that we each identify ourselves in terms of
varna and ashrama is very good. It will help to move our understanding
further along (more so than endlessly rehashing minutiae). I ask that
each member of the group do so *in their profile*. I have asked
several times for you to fill in your profile and very few are doing
that. Therefore in two days I will change the membership so that only
those who have done so will be able to post messages here.
END QUOTE
So you see I did not suggest it. Dhanesvara mandated it.
> Just because I do not agree with you that VA is
> material, and its limit is moksha, even if devotees are using the
> occupational duties in it, in service to the Lord?
See above.
> It is the brahmanas duty to write, not a vaisyas, yet I am guessing
> that there are many on this forum who would define themselves as
> vaisyas, but they write, because they have a burning desire to see
> SPO's vision of VA and "make Vrindavan" come to fruition. Would you
> have all of them silenced? Or just me, because we disagree?
It's not me who suggested this. I simply suggested that we all self analyze and accept Varnas and Ashrams. Then tell the others our conclusions and why we accepted a particular Varna and Ashram. I would further suggest that everyone commit to ONLY one VARNA and ASHRAM. Not state that I am mixed and sometimes when I feel like it I am a brahmin but sometimes a sudra. That means only that you have not thought about it hard enough. We never hear of such mixed or fluid Varnas in sastra. If you think you can show that these concepts are sastric go right ahead. I've never seen any sastra that supports the theory that one can be simultaneously of more than one varna and ashrama.
If you have problems self analyzing then simply describe your lifestyle to the group and we will suggest a varna and ashrama that fits. Otherwise look carefully what you mainly do from 9-5 every day. Your daily activities. If you work for another person you are a sudra. If you work for yourself or even employ others you are a dvija. What kind of dvija depends on the type of work. Intellectual work means brahmin, administrative/political/martial work mean ksatriya, business/entrepreneurial work means vaishya.
If one is not serious enough to commit to ONE Varna and ONE Ashrama then he is not serious enough about VA to discuss it. End of story.
There is no possibility of fruitful discourse with people who's positions change from moment to moment and cannot even understand VA enough to self analyze and accept it in their own lives. Then how can they teach others? Not possible.
GKD
Mukunda Das Gauthier
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
And yet, based on your last couple of postings, I'd like to urge that
you get a copy of Dhanesvara prabhu's book and read it.
And if you've read it already, I suggest you read it again, trying to
come from a blank slate. I see what I would describe as a tendency to
make assumptions, drawing conclusions on those assumptions and arguing
points that were not even made or intended. And not only you but
others as well.
If I was to point out one thing that prevented us, the community of
devotees, to make more progress over the years towards the second half
of Srila Prabhupada's mission, I'd say it's this frequent "finding the
other person wrong" tendency that is still see so present in this
group. Not that we should not correct one another but I'd like to see
it be done in balance with a much greater effort to first understand,
than be understood.
I read recently that when a person identifies too closely with his/her
ideas, he/she will react in defensive ways when those ideas are
challenged because the person feel that his/her very identity is being
challenged.
It is my opinion that if we are to make progress in these exchanges we
need to come from a different place, a different perspective. We need
to come from a place where we admit that, individually, we hardly
understand anything, and that we absolutely need one another to come
to an understanding of the full picture. A place where we've learn to
be OK not knowing everything before we take some actions, a place
where we are truly OK with knowing we are going to make mistake. A
place where we are looking forward being corrected by our peers. From
that perspective, we will listen much more deeply, we will make
inquiries as to what was meant BEFORE making assumptions and drawing
conclusions, we will look for all the areas of common agreement and
deepen those. Let's face it, if we were so smart as to what it'll take
to establish VA, it would be flourishing right now. Let us have a good
reality check and look at our results ! Some of us know how to grow
food, some of us know how to build buildings, some of us know how to
conduct businesses, some of us know how to chant mantras and worship
deities. What I see we need more of is learning to listen to one
another better out of a sense of urgency that we need to learn to
actually work together to make VA work.
There is tremendous value in our exchanges and I believe that, if we
are ready to be more vulnerable and learn from one another and from
our own missteps, we will achieve great things together.
Your servant,
Mukunda das
> I take your reply to be:
>
> I accept Srila Prabhupada's ideas BUT.
>
> This is the same attitude that many have.
>
> May I ask what Varna and Ashram you belong to according to your own analysis and why you think so.
>
> GKD
>
> On Oct 6, 2010, at 12:06 PM, niscala dasi wrote:
>
> >> Perhaps now you know the author you think that it is a better idea?
>
> > Some of SP's instructions are contingent on time, place and
> > circumstance. Clearly this one is very dependent on all three- a
> > qualified astrologer being absolutely essential. And knowing it comes
> > from SP we can be certain, in light of his many other instructions on
> > the matter, that by the word "sect" he did not mean by birth. I think
> > the words "practical psychology" is more universally applicable, in
> > light of his other instructions.
> >> On Oct 6, 2010, at 2:50 AM, niscala dasi wrote:
>
> >>> By a test of practical psychology and by examination of the birth
> >>>>> horoscope of the child, with special reference to his birthright, sect and
> >>>>> class arrangement, a student from the very beginning shall be given the
> >>>>> education of a brahmana, of a kshatriya, of a vaisya or of a sudra, as may
> >>>>> be the case, according to his quality and destined work. It is, however,
> >>>>> possible to make a change of this general rule under special cases.
> >>>>> Comments?
>
> >>> Horoscopes are mostly inaccurate due to unqualified astrologers, and
> >>> what do you mean by class and sect? Sounds and smells like the caste
> >>> system to me- qualification by birth. Practical psychology is a better
> >>> suggestion- Dhanesvara's idea is very nice- just ask what they like to
> >>> do. But if they like to lead, they must have the natural qualities as
> >>> well as the trained qualifications.
>
> >> The quote is from Srila Prabhupada's essay Gitanagari.
>
> >> Perhaps now you know the author you think that it is a better idea?
>
> >> GKD
DRousse
farm. Chaitanya mentioned that in one of his posts.
Dhanesvara Das
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of niscala dasi
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:21 PM
To: Varnashrama Culture
Subject: Re: Varnashram not Farmashram
Greg Jay
On Oct 8, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Mukunda Das Gauthier wrote:
> You make some very valuable contributions to this group. Thank you.
> And yet, based on your last couple of postings, I'd like to urge that
> you get a copy of Dhanesvara prabhu's book and read it.
I agree with you. However I have read Manu, Prabhupada, and Bhaktivinode on this subject and also lived in India for many years in the largest Vaisnava Varnashram community in the world, Srirangam. Thus I am also actually living in a REAL Vaisnava Varnashram community, which has been in existence for thousands of years.
Not only that but I have researched and discussed this issue with devotees and others for many, many years.
I think that Dhanesvara usually comes at the problems from the Economic point of view and I admit that I am not an expert in that point of view.
I will certainly read his writings as soon as I have time. Beginning with the papers he has uploaded to this group.
In the meantime forgive me if I continue to comment according to my understandings of what is being put forward.
> And if you've read it already, I suggest you read it again, trying to
> come from a blank slate.
It's not possible to come from a blank slate. Especially when I have the experience and knowledge outlined above. But I do agree to being objective and openminded about any of his concepts.
> I see what I would describe as a tendency to
> make assumptions, drawing conclusions on those assumptions and arguing
> points that were not even made or intended. And not only you but
> others as well.
I am sorry if I have argued against any Strawman positions. If that is true then enlighten me on why they are strawman arguments.
> If I was to point out one thing that prevented us, the community of
> devotees, to make more progress over the years towards the second half
> of Srila Prabhupada's mission, I'd say it's this frequent "finding the
> other person wrong" tendency that is still see so present in this
> group.
There is nothing wrong with attacking wrong conceptions. But if a person attacks a strawman argument that is simply a waste of time I agree.
Give me an example of a strawman argument that I have argued against? I will be grateful to discuss it.
I am not interested in ad hominems and neither do I wish to make them against anyone. So let us just address the actual points mentioned.
> Not that we should not correct one another but I'd like to see
> it be done in balance with a much greater effort to first understand,
> than be understood.
Again point out what I have not understood please. I will happily hear your issues. I have posed some questions about ideas I haven't heard before. For example getting rid of money. I have never heard this before. Manu speaks about money. Prabhupada says sudras should not have it. Nowhere does anyone say that it is not to be used by anyone in VA. So when someone contends that "Money is the root of all evil" and that it is not in Manu. Then I must respectfully disagree.
> I read recently that when a person identifies too closely with his/her
> ideas, he/she will react in defensive ways when those ideas are
> challenged because the person feel that his/her very identity is being
> challenged.
Certainly, we can say this about anyone. People can be very sincerely wrong in their ideas. It's only natural to be defensive about one's ideas.
> It is my opinion that if we are to make progress in these exchanges we
> need to come from a different place, a different perspective.
How does one come from a perspective other than one's own perspective?
If you mean we should all be openminded then I agree. And I think I am openminded.
However if you mean we should give up our concepts which we have researched and see clearly in sastra and in practice in Indian history and culture then I do not agree.
> We need
> to come from a place where we admit that, individually, we hardly
> understand anything, and that we absolutely need one another to come
> to an understanding of the full picture.
Actually our system is descending knowledge. So we have to accept guru, sadhu and sastra as our pramanas (proofs) along with pratyaksha (sense perception) and anumana (inference). This is our epistemology. Building on that we have to derive from that some axioms and build from there. Authors may have new ideas and there may be value in that also. However initially we have to accept basic authority. What authority do you accept for understanding Varnashram?
This is a good place to start. Do you accept something if it is stated in Manu?
If I quote the Veda purusa suktam on the original understanding of Varnashram do you accept it? Or not?
There can be no fruitful discussion without the common acceptance of pramanas (proofs/epistemology) and authority.
Perhaps this group needs to consider this first.
I will certainly read Dhanesvaras writings however in the case that they differ from Manu or the Veda are they more authentic or are Manu and the Veda more authentic authorities?
Thus if I see that someone questions the ancient and eternal authorities I have to look closely at what they are saying. I can't simply accept it without question and I am inclined to be against positions that seem to be against the ancient and eternal authority's views.
> A place where we've learn to
> be OK not knowing everything before we take some actions, a place
> where we are truly OK with knowing we are going to make mistake. A
> place where we are looking forward being corrected by our peers.
You may not like my style but I suggest to you to put aside that and concentrate on the substance.
For example instead of spending your and my time admonishing me about my attitude, I'd simply prefer if you give me some substance on where and how I have argued inconsistently with the sastra or where I have attacked a strawman argument. That is what I am looking for, substance. I am not too worried about style.
> From
> that perspective, we will listen much more deeply, we will make
> inquiries as to what was meant BEFORE making assumptions and drawing
> conclusions, we will look for all the areas of common agreement and
> deepen those. Let's face it, if we were so smart as to what it'll take
> to establish VA, it would be flourishing right now.
It is flourishing in Srirangam and has been for 1000s of years.
> Let us have a good
> reality check and look at our results ! Some of us know how to grow
> food, some of us know how to build buildings, some of us know how to
> conduct businesses, some of us know how to chant mantras and worship
> deities. What I see we need more of is learning to listen to one
> another better out of a sense of urgency that we need to learn to
> actually work together to make VA work.
I have invited any devotee interested to come to Srirangam and see how a large community of Vaisnavas actually works.
As you say we are confused because we have never seen Vaisnavas observing Varnashram. But in India there are certainly places where they do still follow the rules of Varnashram as much as can be done in today's world.
Now I am not saying that we in ISKCON will exactly follow the way they are following but seeing it in action gives us a good starting point.
If you really want to see VA today fully implemented as it was in ancient times the ONLY way is Virtual Varnashram in cyber space. This is also my idea. I have a prospectus on how this model could be designed if you want to see it.
> There is tremendous value in our exchanges and I believe that, if we
> are ready to be more vulnerable and learn from one another and from
> our own missteps, we will achieve great things together.
I agree. I wish however that you had given me some substance on the actual issues in this email.
GKD
Dhanesvara Das
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com [mailto:varnashrama-
cul...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Jay
Dhanesvara ji, PAMHO AGTSP
Can you say more about your ideas about money?
"So similarly, in villages, everyone, if he has got some land, he can
live simply without any gorgeous building. What is the use? Just have
a cottage and have garden. You’ll live very peacefully…Produce your
own food, live peacefully, fresh vegetable, fresh grains, fresh milk,
and prepare so many nice milk preparation, kachori, halava, with ghee.
Offer to the Deity. Eat sufficiently. What is the use of going
outside?
"Simple life and chant Hare Krishna. . . What is this rascal
civilization, whole day 'Where is money? Where is money? Where is
money? Where is money? Where is money?' Everyone. Busy means 'Where is
money? Where is money?' Just like the hog, he is busy: 'Where is
stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is
stool?' That is not civilization. First of all be engaged yourself.
Then they will see the example and they’ll join."
October 28, 1975 Nairobi :-)
Dhanesvara Das
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I
am awed at your literary output! Your keen analytical ability to enter
into every detail amazes me (both here and on the Srila Prabhupada’s
disciples forum). Whew! It is quite beyond me to answer these long
emails point-by-point in detail so I hope that you will forgive me for
that. Instead I will reply in broad strokes hoping that it will
satisfy you sufficiently.
It seems to me that a lot of the differences that come up between you
and I are a matter of context. I am of the traditionalist school,
desiring to establish varnashrama culture on the basis of Srila
Prabhupada’s statements for simple living. I see that Srila
Prabhupada’s instructions will solve the major problems of the world
if people will take up such a way of life. The fact remains that even
if everyone on the planet decided to do that today, as quickly as
possible, it would likely take decades to unwind this civilization.
This is not going to be done be everyone, nor even the masses, as far
as I see it, and it is not my intention to try to create a social
alternative that will appeal to the masses. My interest is to
understand and establish what Srila Prabhupada had in mind in his
myriad of instructions on the matter. Everything else can take care of
itself. If some are attracted by that, then great! If none are
attracted by that, then that doesn’t change anything for us. We will
continue the same nonetheless.
You seem to have the idea that varnashrama culture can be established
in the context of the existing materialistic, atheistic culture. It is
my opinion that that cannot be done successfully, because the
relationships between the varnas cannot be fulfilled. It is not my
desire to try to convince you of my position. I can offer my arguments
but it is up to you whether you want to convince yourself of that or
not. I do not want debate, but prefer exchange for the purpose of
increasing understanding. Perhaps that is what you are doing, but you
certainly have a challenging manner :-).
I am trying to do what Srila Prabhupada wanted according to my
understanding, and I am certain that also present your best
understanding. You certainly have knowledge and expertise in areas
where I am unlearned, and I defer to your expertise in those areas,
maybe you should do so with others?
Regarding the instructions by Manu about money, the first thing I
question is whether the original text actually has such a term, or if
'money' is how the original term is translated. Translators of course
must try to convey the original meaning to the context of their
readers, and in today’s context that word would be money. But in the
original context it may not mean “money” as we use it today.
Now supposing even that the term does in fact translate to money,
still we don’t find in Manu his specific instructions that we should
create money, in what fashion, whether a commodity-backed money, or a
tangible money such as silver or gold, nor does he say how it is to be
issued, etc. He only states how dealings should take place, and it is
possible to read those verses without the concept of money being used,
but some other form of consideration instead. Since that is the case
the word “Money” may well have been the translators convenience to
communicate the idea to a modern reader.
I am fairly convinced of this because it is a historical fact that
money as a medium of exchange was not used anywhere in this world
prior to some 2,500 years ago. Manu is for all yugas and it is
unlikely that such a thing was used during the Sattva yuga. The first
coins in India that can be identified as money are those of the
Greeks, and they arrived in India not before 2,300 years ago.
Generally, around the world, in all the indigenous cultures where I
have looked, a gift or redistribution economy was used. That being the
case, by inference we may suppose that a gift economy was also
practiced in India.
I am further convinced of this because of the very nature of money as
a creation of the modes of passion and ignorance. In the chapter “The
Economics of Atheism” I go into a detailed explanation of this. Until
you have read these chapters (economics of goodness, economics of
passion, economics of ignorance, economics of atheism) I will not
enter into further discussions about money or the roles of the varnas
with each other.
Perhaps this brings us closer together in our understanding. I hope
so. Let me say that I do appreciate the manner in which you require me
to substantiate every detail. It is a fact that this detailed
explanation is needed for many others besides yourself, and you do a
service to them by bringing your questions/challenges.
With respect and appreciation,
Dhanesvara Das
>
> read more »
Greg Jay
OK, well the first quote actually does not mention money.
The second quote suggests that we should not spend all our time in pursuit of money.
However I do not see any quote that says we should not have any money.
In fact here is my quote:
The sudra class is less intelligent and should have no independence. They are meant for rendering sincere service to the three higher sections of the society. The sudra class can attain all comforts of life simply by rendering service to the higher classes. It is especially enjoined that a sudra should never bank money. As soon as the sudras accumulate wealth, it will be misused for sinful activities in wine, women and gambling. Wine, women and gambling indicate that the population is degraded to less than sudra quality. The higher castes should always look after the maintenance of the sudras, and they should provide them with old and used garments. A sudra should not leave his master when the master is old and invalid, and the master should keep the servants satisfied in all respects. The sudras must first of all be satisfied by sumptuous food and clothing before any sacrifice is performed. In this age so many functions are held by spending millions, but the poor laborer is not sumptuously fed or given charity, clothing, etc. The laborers are thus dissatisfied, and so they make agitation. SB 1.9.26
END QUOTE
The point I believe being made above is that SUDRAS should not be given or allowed to use money. This means necessarily that Brahmins, Ksatriyas and Vaishyas may use money. The idea Prabhupada is giving is that SUDRAS aren't capable of handling money or accumulated wealth.
Thus when I hear of a system like HH Sivarama Swami's farm where no one can have or make any money I conclude that they are all SUDRAS or workers. His overall system could be understood to be Varnashram as they train everyone in the City Temples for 5 years and then make them make a decision about how they want to spend the rest of their lives. The SUDRAS (and perhaps some other very simple devotees) opt for the simple regimented farm life of no money where everyone is treated equally. The others either choose a very austere brahminical existence as full time preachers and missionaries attached to the City Temples or become congregational members and work within society (these would be the Vaishyas and perhaps some Ksatriyas and Brahmins who want to be more independent). I noted that he seemed to be saying that these congregational members are expected to give 50% of their income to ISKCON.
By the way I do not understand how his farm system is supposed to work long term. If a person wants to join the farm they loan some money for building a house to the Farm Authority. Then if they leave they get that money back with some small interest paid. However if they stay and have kids those kids will have no separate money if they leave or even if they stay to build a house for themselves if they grow up and marry and want to stay on the farm. Thus the system does not perpetuate itself economically beyond one immediate generation unless people leave and are simply replaced by others. No growth can occur with this system except for new people coming in with their own money. So it is a pay to play system. The second generation of farm dwellers has no way to make the money needed for their own house unless their parents die. In which case the married children must all share the parents one 600 sqr ft home. It sounds like a system that will eventually create inequalities and ghettos.
GKD
Greg Jay
I appreciate your reply very much. I will endeavor to read your book's discussion on the subject of money.
I will make only a few comments on your email.
First and foremost I think we have to define who and what we accept as authority. Scientific historical evidence (i.e. that coins did not exist before 2300 years ago, that they did not exist at the time of Lord Krsna) or Sastric evidence (that would suggest that coinage existed at the time of Lord Krsna i.e. 5000 years ago).
Most scholars accept the type of Varnashram system spoken of by Srila Prabhupada as NOT being the original social system of India (or anywhere else for that matter). They consider that this Classical Varnashram system mentioned in Manu, other Dharma Sastras and the Puranas developed over the course of many thousands of years and is still developing in India even today. Most of us are familiar with the Varnashram system as mentioned in Srimad Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrta. Yet these two books describe slightly different Varnashram systems because one describes Puranic times and the other Indian society only 500 years ago. On top of that Prabhupada often cites examples of social customs current in his childhood or in the lives of his immediate predecessors as being according to Varnashram standards. Thus we have to understand exactly what form of Varnashram Prabhupada is speaking of when he says introduce Varnashram. I suggest that he does not mean introduce Varnashram exactly as it was practiced in Puranic times, neither does he mean practice it as practiced in India 500 years ago at the time of Lord Caitanya, neither does he mean to practice it exactly as practiced by his immediate predecessors or even as it was exactly in his childhood. I submit that he wants to take certain principles of all of these slightly different versions of Varnashram and combine them pragmatically and apply them in a consistent and logical fashion to modern social situations.
Regarding the historical evidences that money (as we know it) was not used prior to 2300 years ago.
When you reason that Manu is for all Yugas and at the same time bring in scientific historical evidence that money was not used prior to 2300 years ago you are comparing apples to oranges.
If you accept the idea that money was historically not used before 2300 years ago then you must also accept that any mention of actual money in sastras we have today means that these sastras themselves must be less than 2300 years old.
You have deduced that you can date the sastras (i.e. Manu or whatever Purana or other sastra speaks about money) in terms of being eternal and for all Yugas but then you accept modern historical scientific evidence that money was not used prior to 2300 years ago. That is inconsistent.
You cannot date coinage by the scientific method and Manu by an unscientific method and compare the two. That is inconsistent.
Below are some quotes from the Bhagavatam mentioning gold coins which according to Srila Prabhupada was written 5000 years ago and according to historians was written in the middle ages. If coins were not used in India before 2300 years ago then the Bhagavatam must not be 5000 years old as Srila Prabhupada says but a much more recent book. Is this really what you want to prove? I have put some quotes from Bhagavatam at the end of this email indicating that BANKABLE money and coinage was used at the time of Lord Krsna i.e. 5000 years ago. The numbers in the verses below indicate a standard measurement of gold was used money. That sounds exactly like coinage to me.
Whether or not we can resolve this conflict about exactly what money is, when it is mentioned in sastra, I think you will agree that when Prabhupada uses the word money he means what we commonly understand the term to mean. That is (modern) currency.
Here is something Prabhupada says about money directly in relation to Varna:
The sudra class is less intelligent and should have no independence. They are meant for rendering sincere service to the three higher sections of the society. The sudra class can attain all comforts of life simply by rendering service to the higher classes. It is especially enjoined that a sudra should never bank money. As soon as the sudras accumulate wealth, it will be misused for sinful activities in wine, women and gambling. SB 1.9.26
END QUOTE
Thus Prabhupada has stated that BANKABLE money (and wealth in general) cannot be given or accumulated by SUDRAS. He has NEVER suggested that the other classes cannot have or accumulate BANKABLE money or wealth in general. In fact his books are full of stories of Ksatriyas and Vaishyas, and occasionally Brahmins. Thus the onus is on you to show that Prabhupada never wanted any use of BANKABLE money or accumulation of wealth by the dvija classes.
ys
GKD
HERE ARE THE BHAGAVATAM QUOTES:
Quotes from the Bhagavatam indicating the use of BANKABLE money and coinage at least 5000 years ago. If they are not accepted then the Bhagavatam must be less than 5000 years old. Take your pick of what you believe.
hiranyam rajatam sayyam
vasamsy ajina-kambalan
yanam rathan ibhan kanya
dharam vritti-karim api
SYNONYMS
hiranyam—gold; rajatam—gold coins; sayyam—bedding; vasamsi—clothing; ajina—animal skin for seats; kambalan—blankets; yanam—horses; rathan—chariots; ibhan—elephants; kanyah—girls; dharam—land; vritti-karim—to provide livelihood; api—also.
TRANSLATION
The brahmanas were not only given well-fed cows in charity, but also gold, gold coins, bedding, clothing, animal-skin seats, blankets, horses, elephants, girls and sufficient land for maintenance. SB 3.3.27
satam sahasram ayutam
ramas tatradade panam
tam tu rukmy ajayat tatra
kalingah prahasad balam
dantan sandarsayann uccair
namrishyat tad dhalayudhah
SYNONYMS
satam—one hundred; sahasram—one thousand; ayatam—ten thousand; ramah—Lord Balarama; tatra—in that (match); adade—accepted; panam—wager; tam—that; tu—but; rukmi—Rukmi; ajayat—won; tatra—thereupon; kalingah—the King of Kalinga; prahasat—laughed loudly; balam—at Lord Balarama; dantan—his teeth; sandarsayan—showing; uccaih—openly; na amrishyat—did not forgive; tat—this; hala-ayudhah—Balarama, the carrier of the plow weapon.
TRANSLATION
In that match Lord Balarama first accepted a wager of one hundred coins, then one thousand, then ten thousand. Rukmi won this first round, and the King of Kalinga laughed loudly at Lord Balarama, showing all his teeth. Lord Balarama could not tolerate this. SB 10.61.29
tato laksham rukmy agrihnad
glaham tatrajayad balah
jitavan aham ity aha
rukmi kaitavam asritah
SYNONYMS
tatah—then; laksham—one hundred thousand; rukmi—Rukmi; agrihnat—accepted; glaham—a bet; tatra—in that; ajayat—won; balah—Lord Balarama; jitavan—have won; aham—I; iti—thus; aha—said; rukmi—Rukmi; kaitavam—deception; asritah—resorting to.
TRANSLATION
Next Rukmi accepted a bet of one hundred thousand coins, which Lord Balarama won. But Rukmi tried to cheat, declaring "I'm the winner!" SB 10.61.30
manyuna kshubhitah sriman
samudra iva parvani
jatyarunaksho 'ti-rusha
nyarbudam glaham adade
SYNONYMS
manyuna—by anger; kshubhitah—agitated; sri-man—possessing beauty, or the beautiful goddess of fortune; samudrah—the ocean; iva—like; parvani—on the full-moon day; jatya—by nature; aruna—reddish; akshah—whose eyes; ati—extreme; rusha—with anger; nyarbudam—of one hundred million; glaham—a wager; adade—accepted.
TRANSLATION
Shaking with anger like the ocean on the full-moon day, handsome Lord Balarama, His naturally reddish eyes even redder in His fury, accepted a wager of one hundred million gold coins. SB 10.61.31
niscala dasi
brought up- that if there is no money allowed, but payment is required
for home building, then how will the second generation purchase a
house? Obviously they would have to leave the farm after marrying, to
earn money, before they could return to it. In the meantime, they may
get entangled outside. Also, without any money at all, what about
medical emergencies? Don't we owe a "duty of care" to all who have
surrendered their everything?
I agree wholeheartedly that we need a society whose economics are not
based on money, but loving coooperation- each providing the needs of
the others. That has an enormous advantage of personalizing our
society- but why can't produce be sold to make money, which can then
be put aside for emergencies? For example, in the strawberry season,
there may be much too much fruit to eat, and the rest can be made into
jam and sold, or so many vegetables can be pickled, and sold, vastly
increasing the profit margin, and excess fresh produce sold by
advertising it locally, as fresh and organic, attracting a higher
price than supermarket veggies. The vaisyas after selling, can give
25% of the profit to the ksatriya, who will put it aside for
emergencies and taxes. Other vaisyas may want to stay as normal but
ethical businessmen.
Ironically, GKP has brought up a difficulty with his own assertion of
sudras not getting paid for their services- is there assurance second
generation sudras will get all facility for their new families? This
proves that you cannot introduce one part of VA without the other- it
must be a whole model, unadjusted, or adjustments made throughout. If
sudras are not to be paid, then there must be some guarantee of a
Pariksit style ksatriya- someone who has the means and the heart to
never refuse anyone all shelter and facility. To really do that, he
needs to be in charge of a fairly large amount of wealth, hence kings
had treasuries (which consisted not of money, but necessities of life,
particularly grains, also gold). Without such complete protection in
all contingencies, adjustments need to be made. Sudras need to be
paid. Vaisyas need to be able to earn money, and give at least 25% to
the ksatriya for the emergencies for all the other classes.
We need to look at the reason WHY sudras should not be paid- the
reason given is that they will spend it on meat and liquor. This is
not a problem for vaisnavas in the sudra varna, as such is forbidden
in the whole community. Thus, vaisnava sudras should not be
discriminated against, but offered all respect, and complete assurance
of safety and security, now and for future generations. Either pay
them, or provide them with a ksatriya of the means and heart of the
ksatriyas of yore..Yuddhisthira, Arjuna, Pariksit etc
Greg Jay
I'll just quickly comment on your post as in general I don't have time for your confusion.
Yes, I am right about the Hungarian farm program not allowing for a next generation.
You say it is my idea that sudras not get independence or money but it is not my idea, it is Prabhupada's idea, read his quote again.
The answer to the question of how the next generation of sudras is cared for is very simple.
Sudras are serfs, slaves, indentured laborers, if you like. If my slaves produce too many offspring that I cannot afford to keep them in food, clothing and shelter, then I simply sell the excess ones to another dvija who needs slaves and can properly look after them. In ISKCON this is done by trading or sending devotees to other temples/farms/projects. ISKCON leaders have done this all through ISKCON history.
GKD
Greg Jay
On Oct 9, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Prabhupad Das Karapurnam wrote:
> Again this money or no money in a community debate boils down to
> personal preference, in the absence of direct instruction from ones
> Guru. In the current time frame, some devotees will want to live in a
> community where their work or service is rewarded with money, that
> they can go and spend according to their personal desire. Such
> devotees find Gurus who will allow that. Others will want to live in a
> community of renunciation where all results of activity, including
> money, are turned over to the community treasurer.
I agree with you. Prabhupada said that sudras should not be given independence or money so most people are sudras so this lifestyle will be good for them. And other fully surrender people it will be good for them. In my opinion however REAL Varnashram is the system for the rest of us.
> For some reason,
> Shrila Prabhupad set up early ISKCON on the format that all money was
> turned over and no one had salaries or separate money to spend as they
> saw fit. After he departed, things changed and, today, many, or most
> Temple residents get salaries or some form of payment in cash, to
> spend for their maintenance. Those living outside the temple are
> employees [wage slaves] or self-employed [profit slaves], in each
> case, mostly dealing with goods and services meant for the mundane
> sense gratification of other wage and profit slaves.
As opposed to Temple resident [slaves]. All workers who are not independent are slaves. Ultimately we are slaves of the senses. Of course it is better to be a direct fully surrendered Vaisnava slave of Krsna than an indirect Varnashram slave of Krsna. But each person must find the lifestyle that they can maintain.
> Which system is
> correct, which one is best? I don't really care! The system Shrila
> Prabhupad set up in early ISKCON worked just fine and is the one I
> accept.
It did not work fine because it did not work perpetually. It failed after sometime. When people get married and have kids and need more that the temple wants to give them the temple employs new brahmacharis and brahmacharinis to take the place of more expensive grhasthas workers.
That is the real reason Prabhupada wanted Varnashram. To provide for those who needed more than the basic necessities of life that those in the ashrams could accept.
Let us face facts most people are going to become grhasthas and want a family and home and many other things that ISKCON has been unable to properly provide.
> I havn't read anywhere that he changed that from voluntary
> loving service, without pay, to contracted work or service with pay.
> Just before his departure, he made it very clear, "don't change
> anything", "if you can't expand, then maintain". So, considering his
> direct instruction, my personal intention has always been to try and
> understand how the Urban Monastery and Rural Village can function and
> expand without the residents earning personal money or paying them for
> their work or service. In my particular case, as the projects I am
> developing evolve, I intend to apply the original early ISKCON system
> set up by Shrila Prabhupad, that no one gets paid for work or service
> and, any funds collected by way of preaching, or other community
> projects, is turned over to the Treasurer, then distributed according
> to budget on the items the residents need for maintenance and service.
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs is a slogan popularized by Karl Marx in his 1875
This is Marxism (Communism). Not Varnashram.
> In this system, the reward for serving Lord Krishna is it's own
> result. Devotees are not paid to serve. They serve and are happy doing
> that service, and, when they get money or goods, they turn it over to
> the Monastery or Village Treasurer, who, according to budget, supplies
> what each devotee needs to maintain the body and conduct their
> service. This is called "pure devotional service" and is devoid of
> fruitive work., wage slavery and profit slavery. When applied to
> Varna and Ashram divisions it is called Daivi Varnashram or Bhakti
> Varnashram or Varnashram Without Fruitive Work Or Varnashram Where The
> Fruits Of Work Are Turned Over To Lord Krishna, etc.
You can try to call it whatever you like. However the classical Varnashram system admits four purusharthas. Kama, Artha, Dharma and Moksha.
Your system does not allow for individual pursuit of these goals of human life. Therefore technically it cannot be called Varnashram.
If your system divides people in to so-called Varnas and Ashrams then in one sense it is Varnashram.
But since Brahmins, Ksatriyas and Vaishyas are allowed to have wealth (whereas sudras are not) by definition of their Varnas if you don't allow them to cultivate wealth then they really are not belonging to those Varnas.
For example A Ksatriya is forbidden to work for a wage, he must tax others for his money. A Brahmin can receive charity. A Vaishya is supposed to make a profit. All can give charity. All Dvijas can own land (real property). If they neither own land, or collect wealth from others, then how are they dvijas? They are only workers who are given food, clothing and shelter (all necessities) by a higher managing power. That higher managing power is the REAL dvija and they are in fact only workers or sudras.
Obviously we seem to disagree on what a dvija is, and what a sudra is and what the main differences are.
> Those who have
> faith in this system, as set up by Shrila Prabhupad, will accept it
> and live happily. Those who have no faith in this or just don't want
> it, will do some kind of activity, such as wage or profit slavery,
> that gets them personal money they can then spend according to
> personal interests and desires. It's a matter of personal choice, and,
> each system has its own set of rewards.
REAL Dvijas will not accept this type of condition. But since most people are workers or sudras you can easily find people who want to be such workers.
> It really doesn't matter if there were coins 5000 years ago, 2600
> years ago, 500 years ago or whenever.
I agree. But it does matter if it becomes a matter of faith that conflicts with our spiritual doctrines. It also matters if it is used to foster a false understanding of Varnashram.
> Nor does it matter what shade of
> Varnashram was extant during those times.
The study of historical Varnashram matters a great deal.
> We are not arm chair
> historians in this mission. What matters is NOW! Today, 2010!
Those who do not know history are bound to repeat it.
> What
> kind of Village will the devotees of this Group choose to build and
> live in?
I already live in the village of Srirangam. There is money there. Yet it is a very nice example of Vaisnava community that observes Varnas and Ashrams.
> One with money or one without money?
No money will not work. Mark my words. It may even sound nice in theory to some people but it can't work.
> Or, will they even want
> to live in either, and remain as participants in the demonic society,
> content as wage or profit slaves in service to the mundane desires of
> those addicted to fruitive work.?
Varnashram is all about allowing fruitive work. That is it's purpose. It is a society where everyone can do their fruitive work as much or as little as they individually like and offer the results to the Lord. By following it's principles people work in a regulated way and make advancement.
> That is also a personal choice with
> direct consequences.
Varnashram is the system for those who are not pure sold out fully surrendered devotees. Just as grhastha life is for those who are not able or willing to commit to lifelong celibacy and who are therefore allowed regulated religious family life. Similarly Varnashram is the system for those who can't fully give up their desires for kama, artha, dharma and moksha.
GKD
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
> Sudras are serfs, slaves, indentured laborers, if you like. If my slaves
> produce too many offspring that I cannot afford to keep them in food,
> clothing and shelter, then I simply sell the excess ones to another dvija
> who needs slaves and can properly look after them. In ISKCON this is done
> by trading or sending devotees to other temples/farms/projects. ISKCON
> leaders have done this all through ISKCON history.
From what I understand it is not appropriate to consider sudras in the way
you describe above. The fundamentalist watchers would have a field day if we
started making plans that included slavery! The terms slave and serf have
such bad connotations. The idea is that sudras are essential members of the
society, Prabhupada described that they are given honorific titles (was it
thakura saheb, for a sudra?). If they get the idea that we think of them as
commodities that are to be traded they are going to rebel which will defeat
the whole purpose of the exercise.
I cannot access the vedabase right now, but from what I remember Prabhupada
recommends that they be treated as family members.
I think that sometimes we are projecting too far. While its good to have an
understanding in the way we can implement varnasrama, we need to think
incrementaly based on what Srila Prabhupada assures us will work. We can
hardly project a generation or two with any kind of accuracy. Many of the
problems we face with untrained adults who are conditioned to western
thought patterns will start to wane when we get adults who grew up with the
right training. We have the source material, we have to use our intelligence
to adjust the vision as Krsna reveals the way to us over the long term.
Prabhupadas idea to create an 'ideal unit' of society is described in his
Gita Nagari essay which he expanded on in many conversations and other
interactions in later years. Its a simple unit of society in which the
devotees have organised themselves in such a way that the services are done
in the best possible way by persons best suited to the tasks. If this is
done simply using what Krsna provides, it will be a wonderful example that
will show people the simplicity and happiness of spiritual life, as opposed
to the problems that arise from ugra karmic life. I dont think it is
accurate to portray that as desert island survival. Prabhupada once said:
"...You are being cheated for two hundred, three hundred years, that's all.
Not before that. All these scientists rascals, have come out within two
hundred years. That's all. So you are being cheated for the last two hundred
years, not for thousands of years. So it will be finished. Within another
fifty years, everything will be finished." May 15th 1973 Morning Walk LA.
on the 21/1/1977 Prabhupada spoke about banking:
Ramesvara: The difference between Vedic culture and..., the Krsna conscious
culture and the modern culture is very, very dramatic, very big difference.
So the transforming of society...
Prabhupada: And besides that, if we concentrate in farm project there will
be no need of exchange, because I'll be satisfied with my products. That's
all. There is no need of exchange. Whatever I need, I get in my farm.
Ramesvara: Weaving, cloth.
Prabhupada: Everything I get. So I haven't got to go outside for exchange.
If you are satisfied in your farm�I am satisfied�then where is question of
exchange? There is no need of artificial... So this banking, "fanking,"
everything will collapse automatically. There is no money, who is going to
keep money in the bank?
Hari-Sauri: Who needs it?
Prabhupada: (laughs) So this artificial way of banking, that will be also
collapsed.
Hari-Sauri: This is revolutionary.
Ramesvara: It's very hard for the mind to...
Prabhupada: No, simply do this.
Ramesvara: Such a dramatic transformation of society.
Prabhup�da: Yes. Whatever it may be... We should be satisfied locally by our
food, by our cloth, by our milk. That's all. Let the whole world go to hell.
We don't care. If you want to save yourself also, you do this. Here is an
example. If you want artificial life, city life, and hellish life, you do.
But we shall live like this. This is the ideal life.
Your servant
Samba das
niscala dasi
The reason WHY sudras are not paid- is that they "will spend it on
liquor and meat". So clearly, this does not apply to devotee sudras.
As far as them being "owned", it is materialistic to think that we can
own them- as it is not based on the reality that all is the property
of the Lord - the consciousness cultivated in varnashrama is that no
one and nothing is mine- it all belongs to the Lord, including even my
own talents.
That such slavery and ownership consciousness has taken part in
ISKCON- with devotees being traded to different temples does not mean
that it is the right dynamic! Cows have died from neglect- is that the
right dynamic? As far as payment is concerned, the ideal is that the
work is voluntary and service-oriented- regardless of varna. That is
vaisnava- he aspires to serve the devotees without motivation or
interruption. In vedic times, sudras were never in want, but can we
guarantee that level of protection? We have our Citragate scandal- an
elderly devotee feeling such a burden that she threw herself in
flames. We have the child abuse scandal, which was covered up by our
leaders, and at least one guru who has molested a child is still a
guru, with the consent of the GBC. So, in the complete absence of
qualified ksatriyas that we can trust, protection needs to be given in
other ways. As I said before, if one part of the puzzle is missing,
you have to adjust all the pieces. or they will fall through the
cracks...
As vaisnavas, we cultivate the consciousness that "nothing is mine. It
is the Lord's to be cared for. As it is the Lord's property, and He
and His property are identical, and as He only accepts service through
His devotees, I will and cannot own anyone, even my family. My
position is to be the humble servant of the servant of the lowest
caste in society. As SP described himself "Iam not first class. I am
fifth class, servant of the other four classes" that humility is the
consciousness we need to cultivate on our ISKCON farms. It is the mood
of Vrindavan, and SP requested us to "make Vrindavan"
Since we can own nothing, we are all caretakers of the property in the
Lord's house- this material world. Thus we do not reject or neglect
His property- that is called false renunciation, phalgu vairagya- but
maintain it perfectly to be used in His service. We are the caretakers
of each other, as we each belong to the Lord, are His property. To see
such divine connection everywhere frees us from the cycle of birth and
death, as described by Lord Kapiladeva:
As the blazing fire of death, I cause great fear to whoever makes the
least discrimination between living entities because of a
differential outlook.
Therefore, through charitable gifts and attention, as well as through
friendly behaviour and by viewing all to be alike, one should
propitiate Me, who abide in all creatures as their very Self. (SB
3.29.26-27)
niscala dasi
the development of vaisnava qualities- it is a vehicle to facilitate
the same. Thus, we are all servants of the servants, and own nothing.
Even our children, what to speak of workers, we lovingly maintain
them, but do not own them, trade them, or in anyway depersonalize them
into objects for our own use and exploitation. We are their servants-
and try to elevate their consciousness as well as provide for the
material and psycological well-being.
DRousse
Samba writes:
I think that sometimes we are projecting too far. While its good to have an
understanding in the way we can implement varnasrama, we need to think
incrementaly based on what Srila Prabhupada assures us will work. We can
hardly project a generation or two with any kind of accuracy. Many of the
problems we face with untrained adults who are conditioned to western
thought patterns will start to wane when we get adults who grew up with the
right training. We have the source material, we have to use our intelligence
to adjust the vision as Krsna reveals the way to us over the long term.
So is Gaura Keshava speaking about the immediate or long term? I suggest that for clarification the writers identify the context of their remarks: be it theoretical, implementation, near future, distant future, far-far future, past, etc.
This will help to increase communication considerably.
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com [mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:43 AM
To: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Varnashram not Farmashram
Gaura Keshava Prabhu wrote:
If you are satisfied in your farm—I am satisfied—then where is question of
exchange? There is no need of artificial... So this banking, "fanking,"
everything will collapse automatically. There is no money, who is going to
keep money in the bank?
Hari-Sauri: Who needs it?
Prabhupada: (laughs) So this artificial way of banking, that will be also
collapsed.
Hari-Sauri: This is revolutionary.
Ramesvara: It's very hard for the mind to...
Prabhupada: No, simply do this.
Ramesvara: Such a dramatic transformation of society.
Prabhup€da: Yes. Whatever it may be... We should be satisfied locally by our
food, by our cloth, by our milk. That's all. Let the whole world go to hell.
We don't care. If you want to save yourself also, you do this. Here is an
example. If you want artificial life, city life, and hellish life, you do.
But we shall live like this. This is the ideal life.
Your servant
Samba das
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Greg Jay
If you teach people to live without the ability to accumulate wealth (whether it be money, coins, gold, or excess commodities) and they must be completely surrendered to an authority that then supplies their every need, you are in fact creating a slave class. There is no doubt about it.
According to Prabhupada women and sudras are the ONLY ones that are never to have independence or allowed to accumulate separate wealth.
I have given you one quote (there are probably more), and this is clear also from reading Dharma sastras.
It does not really matter whether you think long, medium or short term about this concept.
Under ideal conditions women and sudras accept this because they are nicely looked after by male dvijas (who are the rest of society) who are independent and who can accumulate wealth.
So under such ideal conditions such sudras and women are happy.
And because (approximately) half the population are women and most of the men are sudras you can satisfy most people with a system where they are looked after by the relatively few benevolent masters/leaders of society i.e. the male dvijas.
But the idea that we all form a collective where no one is independent or allowed to accumulate wealth but the wealth is held in common by some central authority (making the ISKCON or a GBC or TP or GURU our defacto king) and/or equally distributed to each according to his need is communism/marxism. Not Varnashram.
By insisting that everyone be dependent and no separate accumulation of wealth by vaishyas, ksatriyas or brahmins is allowed, you have created only one class of person, the sudra.
A sudra dominated society tends to be communist, just as a vaishya dominated society is capitalist and a ksatriya dominated society is a oligarchy. Varnashram is a brahmin guided, ksatriya controlled, vaishya and ultimately sudra supported system. Each class has it's role to play but it cannot function unless you let each of those parts actually play the roles that they are intended to play in it. If you restrict the higher classes from playing their part then you don't have Varnashram any more. You will have whatever system comes about when the particular class that you emphasize dominates. In the case of making everyone play the roles of sudras by not allowing them any independence or ability to accumulate wealth you have created a sudra dominant society which tends towards communism. If you foster ONLY Vaishya tendencies and expect everyone to fend for themselves by accumulation of wealth then you have capitalism which as we see also has it's drawbacks. When we have a situation where there are too many ksatriyas in a society then the rest of the people becomes oppressed as in the situation when the Lord appeared as Parasurama to kill off the excess of ksatriyas. The French revolution is another example of oppression by ksatriya class and the revolt of the people against such oppression. The rise of communism is because of the failure of the divja classes to properly take care of the sudras. But as we have seen the sudras are not able to look after themselves and society again breaks down into different class although the sudra and communist ideal is that everyone is the same class. That is because the class system is natural. When you try to stop it manifesting or try to force people into classes they are not suited for then that is when the problems begin. Thus we have to allow people natural expression of the class tendencies that they find best suited to their qualifications and tendencies.
What I hear most in this group is the insistence that people are fully surrendered pure devotees. That they have no real material desires or should not be allowed to express those desires.
I do not see how this is true to real life. This is the reason people leave ISKCON. Because they are not pure devotees. They do have some material desires. And if they cannot find a way to express those material desires in a Krsna consciousness way of life, they have only two choices. Either give up all material wants and desires (which for most people is virtually impossible) or leave the immediate ISKCON society and fulfill those desires independently.
Thus ISKCON can only succeed fully to attract and maintain it's congregation (even core membership) if and when it understands that it has to provide a social framework (varnashram) within which people can satisfy both their spiritual and material desires, no matter what class they belong to.
Acceptance of kama, artha, dharma and moksha as legitimate purusharthas or goals of human existence in absolutely necessary for this to occur.
Each class prizes one of these goals over the others. Sudras are mostly satisfied if they have good food, clothing, medical care, shelter, etc. That is kama or regulated sense gratification. It is regulated in Varnashram but it is still allowed not banned or discouraged. Vaishyas are not satisfied with only this. They are most interested in artha or the accumulation of wealth. Ksatriyas are focused on the establishment of proper dharmic systems of justice, righteousness, fairness and this is why they derived satisfaction from managing society. The brahmins are the true intellectuals (though there are very intelligent members also of other classes, the intelligence of the others is expressed differently according to their desires). They are meant to guide the whole society with theoretical advice from sastra and logic, not hands on management which requires more of the mode of passion. They are more interested in liberation than sense gratification, accumulation of wealth or hands on control of society.
Daivi Varnashram means you have to allow these four classes of people to thrive and follow their tendencies at the same time as cultivating spiritual life to the extent that they can. This is not the same for all individuals. Varnashram allows for these different classes to express their desires in a regulated way that does not impede but actually assists their steady spiritual progress. The Vedic way of life is to regulate not sublimate or ignore the materialistic desires that everyone (except the rare completely pure devotee) has. If we were all able to completely surrender all material desires and tendencies immediately and were all fully situated in the mode of pure goodness (as people were in Satya yuga) there would be no need of Varnashram. So to the extent that you make a type of system that demands complete conformity and surrender from people to that extent you will fail. Varnashram is an all inclusive system that is able to accommodate every type of person and every type of material desire and purify them. But the purification is by regulation not by denial. Denial of a way to accumulate individual wealth means that all ksatriyas, and vaishyas and even many, less than totally pure, brahmins will not be able to function in a such a system. It is fine for the rare totally surrendered pure devotees, or those who can be totally dependent and subservient (women and sudras). But it is not a holistic system and cannot therefore accommodate all types of people.
GKD
niscala dasi
concept of slaves, in modern english, includes the right to exploit-
until we are freed from such tendency, entirely, we should not use the
term. On the other hand, freed from such proclivity, sudras would be
owned exactly as children are owned- and joyful because the security
and commitment to protect is there, and they are loved and
appreciated. To undo such proclivity to exploit is difficult, and
therefore one must focus how all property belongs to the Lord and we
are just its caretakers- we have no right to enjoy or exploit what is
the property of another.
Another point, you wrote: This is the reason people leave ISKCON.
ksatriyas can gamble. Currently gambling is not a problem for our
ksatriyas, so what you are recommending is to reduce our current
spiritual standards. That is not good. Devotees do not leave KC
because of the gambling urge, which is contingent on casinos and the
like, but something much more natural to the embodied condition- sex
life. How many of our very advertised guru falldowns were due to
gambling? And how many due to sex? You see my point?
So, sex life needs to be purified. If one cannot come up to the best
standard of only passing semen after the proper samskara and once a
month, at the time the wife is fertile, then at least only have sex
with one's wife, and try to reduce it as much as possible. If
possible, try to be loving without sex- that is sublimation, and is
possible, psychologically. If you are a sannyasi and attacked by it,
then do not engage in it and cover up, but come clean, marry, and live
a decent life. One can still get all perfection from whatever varna
and ashrama one is in- it only requires introspective honesty.
So my humble suggestion is that you replace the allowance for gambling
with an allowance for sex life- which is our actual problem. Letr
those under the brahmana class be required to have a wife, and limit
sex life to that one wife, avoid cruel birth control methods such as
abortion, and try to reduce the sexual urge by association with
saintly persons, and sadhana, and living in the mode of goodness.
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Dhanesvara ji, PAMHO AGTSP
GKD
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niscala dasi
Therefore, both Samba and I expressed that description of the sudras
as slaves, in the modern understanding of slavery, probably not the
vedic understanding, where they were treated respectfully, implies
expolitation to a great degree. We all know the MODERN history of
slavery. Its like when you say "vehicle" I don't assume a horse drawn
cart, I assume the modern version, and for you to call a horse-drawn
cart a "vehicle" confuses the issue, though it certainly is a vehicle.
Language must be precise and reflect the current usage.
niscala dasi
devoid of poisonous pesticides... space for kids to run, climb and get
dirty, cows, cow dung for the gardens, cow dung for the fire, trees,
spiritual discussions and...friendship...friendship..friendship. How
much could even one of those be given in dollar values?
I once read a book called "Dung is Gold Mine" if you ever have felt
ambivalent towards the sloppy green stuff, it will revolutionize your
thinking! Gold, and certainly money, on the other hand, breeds envy,
greed, exploitation and degradation. Depersonlaization as well. The
personality of Kali entered it, and since then it has been hard to
convert to goodness, like trying to unbend a kink in a dog's tail. A
super human being like SP could do it, and those who follow in his
footsteps. But JC warned that it was generally harder for a rich man
to enter heaven, than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. A
brahmana is supposed to be able to spend whatever he is given in the
Lord's service, as soon as he is given it. Grhasthas are advised to
give it away in charity- by feeding sumptuously the brahmanas, the
sudras, and other dependents. . In addition, the magnanimous ksatriya
takes 25% to distribute for the welfare of all. So it really is all
about the joy of giving, then Kali can have no influence...
Greg Jay
I am sorry but I cannot understand the difference. If you allow for people to accumulate gold then what is the difference between gold and money? I understand that modern (debt instrument) currency is not based on gold but I do not think you are suggesting a return to the gold standard. Buy the way the $AUD, $CAD and $NZD currencies are commonly understood as commodity based currencies. What then is the difference if I accumulate gold coins or bars or I accumulate a banknote or bank balance? What about if I buy commodity futures contracts? Soya bean or wheat futures? Sorry I really can't see the difference.
GKD
PS I have not got your whole book. Only the docs you uploaded to google. I guess I will have to search for the link to download your book but I am becoming less interested in reading it if it is a plan for just a few zealots.
Greg Jay
We have seen here on this forum Prabhupada das describe people as wage slaves and profit slaves.
Therefore why should there be any problem if I also use the term?
All workers are slaves. They may not be slaves in the sense of being physically chained but they are slaves in the sense of being dependent.
My point is that Prabhupada said that sudras and women are always dependent.
Another way of saying this is the sudras and women are always slaves.
Now they can certainly be well cared for slaves. They can be lovingly protected and supported for their whole lives.
That does not change their status as slaves.
Perhaps you would approve if I called devotee sudras as love slaves of the Lord.
Ultimately we are all slaves or servants of the Lord.
However in VA sudras and women are dependent and male dvijas are not dependent. This is an important distinction in VA.
Of course no one has complete independence but sudras and women have less independence than male dvijas in VA.
I do not see anything wrong with a male dvija giving over the protection of some of his sudra (slaves) to another male dvija if he happens to have more sudras (slaves) than he can care nicely for.
I also do not see why these sudra (slaves) could not be traded to another male dvija in return for some other form of wealth. Because that is exactly what a male dvija's sudras (slaves) are. They are his responsibility and they are an asset, they are a form of wealth. A male dvija who has 1000 sudras (slaves) working for him is more wealthy than a male dvija who has only 100 sudras (slaves) working for him.
And this is exactly how ISKCON leaders see the devotees in their temples and zones. They see them as assets. They see them as sources of labor. So if they are completely surrendered to the authority they are slaves. And the leaders trade them just as they trade other assets.
Grhastha devotees who live independently are harder to control that the devotees who are completely surrendered living within the temples or farm communities. They are more like employees or volunteers depending on whether they take any compensation for their labor.
It is only a salary that allows us to call servants as employees and not slaves.
When a person is employed in a job by a boss if he does it for nothing he is a volunteer, if he does it for a monetary compensation (either cash or kind) then he is a servant or employee and if he does it without monetary salary (in either cash or kind) then he is a slave.
These are clear definitions that we commonly accept today.
The devotees on HH Sivarama Swami's farm or even those who live directly within ISKCON temples are not volunteers because they do not work for nothing. They are given food, clothing, shelter, medicine but NO MONEY. They are not given a salary either in cash or kind which may vary according to their work. Each is given the same prasadam, same house, according to their needs not according to their labor. Thus they are not employees. Since they are not employees, nor they are volunteers, they are slaves.
GKD
Greg Jay
If you get rid of gold and have only commodities then you do not get rid of greed, or envy.
In India people collect cow dung make it into patties and slap it against a wall to dry.
If someone else steals their patty then a fight breaks out.
Greed, envy, etc. cannot be eliminated by eliminating gold.
Personally I am not interested in anything that Jesus said about rich men versus poor men.
The poor man can be just as greedy about his pennys as the rich man about his millions.
King Ambarisa was a pure devotee but a wealthy man. According to Jesus he could not enter heaven.
During Caitanya Mahaprabhus time Pundarika Vidyanidhi and Ramananda Ray were both rich men.
Many of his devotees were rich men.
There is nothing wrong with being a rich man.
Rich men can be spiritual and poor men can be materialistic.
Vaisnavas do not accept the simplistic ideas of Jesus.
GKD