Will the Elites do the needful?
Dhanesvara Das
men of ability are simply focused on their own day-to-day affairs and
are not stepping forward to take up leadership roles in self-
sufficient living and establishment of the daiva varnashrama culture.
Frankly, I have become disappointed to the point of giving up on
Iskcon and looking outside, although I consider that an even more
difficult task.
The problem as I see it is the entrenched culture in the society - a
culture that says that it is ok to continue doing fruitive work while
adding KC to your life. That is certainly ok as a first step, but the
result of practicing KC is the natural evolution of detachment and
renunciation. So where is that being manifest? It is true that nobody
cannot see everything going on in such a large world-wide society, so
if it is happening somewhere, please tell me.
Instead what I have seen is reflected in a FB post by Uttama Sloka Das
(not ACBSP) who asks why are the devotees so unhappy?
Well, I have my answers to that - we are trying to live with one foot
in each culture (the dominant materialistic culture, and the Krishna
culture) and we don't get the result of the Krishna culture.
We need to be able to offer a cultural alternative to our devotees. A
place where they can go when they see the dead-end of material life.
What do you think?
niscala dasi
see what you think...there has been a lot of devotees who have left
ISKCON but still want to be devotees, they are perfect candidates for
an alternative society within ISKCON (ISKCON being that which is
dedicated to preserving SP vani, not a property owned by a
corporation)Could we use the internet to scoop them up and put them
into this discussion, or maybe a separate forum- ISKCON within ISKCON
for those from without ISKCON...? The reason they are perfect is that
they are already devotees- the "change of heart" has already happened.
Many left after the guru shannigans of the 80's, and are now aging and
financially independent. They feel closer to death, more of a need to
surrender fully, and they have the financial wherewithal to help get
VA established- but they will only do so if they realize that it is
actually an alternative to the society they felt forced to leave.
Importantly, if la leader in a temple suspects that you are trying to
"steal" devotees away from their temple services, he will see you as
the enemy and will even warn other temple leaders to not let you
speak. So you must target the already disenfranchised. What do you
think?
Prabhupad Das Karapurnam
"Frankly, I have become disappointed to the point of giving up on
Iskcon and looking outside, although I consider that an even more
difficult task. "
work to those "outside" and, some of them are becoming disciples of
ISKCON Guru's and others are being cultivated to become paying
Congregation. There are many independent Gurus who are disciples of
Shrila Prabhupad who are also getting disciples and congregation.
ISKCON no longer has a monopoly on Guruship with disciples,
congregation, Temples, etc.
I think there is great merit in going outside. If ISKCON is doing it
and getting disciples and congregation, why can't anyone? And many
are! When you focus "inside" ISKCON what you get to select from is
individuals who have been cultivated and indoctrinated into the
current system. Unfortunately, that system does not include Daivi
Varnashram Development. As such, you are confronted with the huge task
of changing the corporate culture, and that entails changing the mind
set of "The Powers That Be", a daunting task because, Daivi Varnashram
means most of them would suddenly have no cash for "personal projects"
I think it much easier to cultivate an open mind that is "materially
exhausted" and seeking a spiritual alternative. That way, your message
is accepted relative to the teachings of Shrila Prabhupad and you are
free to give them Daivi Varnashram AS IT IS.
PDK
Samba (das) (Mayapur Masterplan)
> I think there is great merit in going outside. If ISKCON is doing it
> and getting disciples and congregation, why can't anyone? And many
> are! When you focus "inside" ISKCON what you get to select from is
> individuals who have been cultivated and indoctrinated into the
> current system. Unfortunately, that system does not include Daivi
> Varnashram Development. As such, you are confronted with the huge task
> of changing the corporate culture, and that entails changing the mind
> set of "The Powers That Be", a daunting task because, Daivi Varnashram
> means most of them would suddenly have no cash for "personal projects"
>
> I think it much easier to cultivate an open mind that is "materially
> exhausted" and seeking a spiritual alternative. That way, your message
> is accepted relative to the teachings of Shrila Prabhupad and you are
> free to give them Daivi Varnashram AS IT IS.
I would tend to agree with this analysis, the only problem is that you
really do need to be completely independent and start from scratch.
HH Bhakti Raghava swami started an independent organisation to promote
varnasrama and ended up with quite a few problems when ISKCON devotees
started to work with him. I cant remember the details of that now. In the
end he agreed to sign over the farm project his team had developed to ISKCON
and he has now begun to develop the official Varnasrama Ministry under the
India RGB.
Having said that, as far as I know the Nama Hatta started as a completely
indepenent entity and it was also challenged by ISKCON but gradually it
became an accepted sister organisation.
Your servant
Samba das
DRousse
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank
you for your encouragement in this way. Yes, I agree that going outside is
needed, and even useful to recruit new people and indoctrinate them to my
own way of understanding. When I wrote that it is even more difficult I
intended to say that it takes years to bring a devotee to maturity, so in
that sense it is easier to work with some that already have a few years
experience. Still they are indoctrinated in the current culture of ISKCON,
so that has to be changed. Perhaps it's a wash.
BTW, HH Bhakti Raghava Maharaja also started the Nama Hatta Program when he
was in Mayapura Dham, although credit is typically given to Jayapataka Swami
who came after it was already successful. And I have heard that HH
Radhanatha Swami has said that he could never have developed his Chowpatty
temple to the degree that it is if he would have been in ISKCON.
And another BTW, that DRousse person that you see replying to some posts is
my alter ego. I was signed into google with my integr8ted email address when
I created the forum. Whoops.
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das (aka DRousse)
Your servant
Samba das
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09:34:00
Greg Jay
I'm going to have to agree that it is easier about going outside of ISKCON to find people for Varnashram.
IMHO it is easier to teach those who have not been taught misconceptions.
Prabhupada gave the example of the Music School in Vienna.
When a person goes there to learn they first ask if they have learnt anywhere before.
If the person indicates that they have been taught something previously then they are told they must pay more and train more than a person who knows nothing at all.
Untraining ISKCON devotees is harder than training people who have not gotten the misconceptions of ISKCON and are actually blank slates.
Children of course are the blankest of slates but adults who don't have misconceptions about Varnashram should in theory be more easily trained to understand it and perhaps practice it than those who misunderstand it.
GKD
DRousse
find a suitable project near where they live, or are willing to relocate to
one, this will certainly help them refocus on the future instead of dwelling
on the past. Discussions are insufficient in my humble opinion to help them
have the necessary catharsis that they need. They need real life action
where they can focus their energies, with a leader that they have faith in.
What I hear from some is that they no longer have faith in any leader.
Therefore the change will have to come from their own initiative. In any
case anyone is welcome to contribute here, but this is not a place to vent
or rage against the machine; it is not a forum to discuss the past in any
sense. We are focusing on the future.
Dhanesvara Das
-----Original Message-----
From: varnashra...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:varnashra...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of niscala dasi
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:44 PM
To: Varnashrama Culture
Subject: Re: Will the Elites do the needful?