Landscape and permaculture design software.

[Steve Sobeck]

Thanks for the suggestion - I'll check it out.  We ended up purchasing Realtime Landscaping Plus 2013 from Idea spectrum.  It has a nice feature that lets us import Google Maps and the Van Buren county aerial photos and soil maps as 'overlays' on grids so we can layout and visualize larger areas including our 7.5 acre property.  It can export and import files in a lot of different formats for sharing with other programs.  It also has 3d imaging and visualization which we may not use but so far I'm fairly happy with it.

Steve Sobeck
sent from smartphone

[luckymortal]

That sounds like great software for larger acreage. We did most of our "big picture" planning using Kalamazoo GIS maps, but the ability to import that into the software would have been handy.

[PJ Chmiel]

I've mainly used Adobe Illustrator ($$$) for my own mapping, along with a bit of Adobe Photoshop (also $$$) to work with satellite photos, since I already had both of those for my everyday job as a graphic designer. My friend Trevor uses Illustrator and also Vectorworks (I have not used the latter) for his ecological design business. I staked-off my property into 100-ft. sections (subdivided into 50' sections) for mapping and tree placement, though it is a bit haphazard and could use more refinement. As I'm comparing my actual plantings (in the field) to a recent printout of my Illustrator design, I've found some errors.

I'm intrigued by the Realtime Landscaping tool, I've often thought about a 3-D visualization for my forest garden, though I wasn't sure if any of the reasonably-priced software packages would 1) run on the Mac platform, or 2) include a lot of the species I was using. I guess as long as something looks similar you could rough it out; hostas could stand in for comfrey, citrus trees for asian persimmons, etc.

This is a very clunky but useful mapping tool for Van Buren county (takes a while to get the hang of it), with many overlays (soil types, elevations, etc., along with property and parcel info). http://vbco.org/maps/cismappg.asp?s=5/assess.lif&c=tbl/assessed.map&x=1258&y=874

You can also download or view some historical and current maps on the USGIS site: http://www.usgs.gov/pubprod/maps.html ...this site also takes a little getting used to, but you can download PDFs for free or get printed paper versions relatively inexpensively.

I've used Bing Maps' "Birds-Eye View" feature for screen captures of fairly-detailed aerial photos of my garden site from all four cardinal directions, though the maps appear to be about 5+ years old for my area. This is the level of detail for those (more useful for broadscale properties than small yards): http://www.flickr.com/photos/pjchmiel/5328484221/sizes/o/in/set-72157625632422511/

As a reminder, we're meeting this Saturday at the VB Conservation District's Tree Sale in Paw Paw (1035 E. Michigan Ave, Paw Paw, MI). Please bring your ideas for our table display and join us for a beer and/or conversation after 2pm at Paw Paw Brewing.

PJ

[Jon Towne]

I'd sure be interested in Linux/open source software to do this kind of thing.  I've been toying a little with the idea of mapping this 36 acre farm in detail.  It seems like a good winter project.  Jon

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[Steve Sobeck]

PJ,

Thanks for the info.  I'd spent quite a bit of time on http://vbco.org/maps/cismappg.asp , (much of it quite frustrating) but finally got the hang of the interface so I was able to make use of the digital aerial photos, soils overlay, elevation (though it only has 10' contour lines) and slopes, all with my property boundaries overlaid - which makes it nice.   The photos of my property on the vbco.org website aren't as current as those in Google Earth or Google Maps, but by importing them into the Realtime landscaping software as partially transparent digital overlays and putting into separate layers I'm able to display all the different views of my property with the various features turned on/off.   I downloaded 'PickPic' (also free for home/educational use) which lets me do simple markups/annotations/callouts.  Altogether, I'm able to get most of what I want done for the $80 I paid for Realtime landscape software.   It looks like possibly I could use 'Gimp' (Free GNU Image Manipulation Program) for importing transparent overlays into layers, but I'm told there might be a bit of a learning curve for GIMP, and it wouldn't include the dimensioning/scaling or 3D viewing features if it ever got to that point.    The class I'm taking had several examples of really good GIS and digital images of Permaculture sites developed by Dr Andrea Laliberte at http://www.earthmetrics.com/ but when I contacted her she said that due to the limited GIS data for Van Buren County (like the lack of 2ft contour lines, low-level watershed pics and high resolution Lidar images) what she could do for my property wouldn't be much better than what I've been able to cobble together.  However, for the sites in Oregon used as examples, it's pretty impressive.

I hope to be able to stop by Paw Paw brewing Saturday after the tree pick up - though I may only be able to stay for 1 beer or so as Sue has me on a pretty short leash for other Saturday plans :)

[Steve Sobeck]

PJ,

Thanks for the info.  I'd spent quite a bit of time on http://vbco.org/maps/cismappg.asp , (much of it quite frustrating) but finally got the hang of the interface so I was able to make use of the digital aerial photos, soils overlay, elevation (though it only has 10' contour lines) and slopes, all with my property boundaries overlaid - which makes it nice.   The photos of my property on the vbco.org website aren't as current as those in Google Earth or Google Maps, but by importing them into the Realtime landscaping software as partially transparent digital overlays and putting into separate layers I'm able to display all the different views of my property with the various features turned on/off.   I downloaded 'PickPic' (also free for home/educational use) which lets me do simple markups/annotations/callouts.  Altogether, I'm able to get most of what I want done for the $80 I paid for Realtime landscape software.   It looks like possibly I could use 'Gimp' (Free GNU Image Manipulation Program) for importing transparent overlays into layers, but I'm told there might be a bit of a learning curve for GIMP, and it wouldn't include the dimensioning/scaling or 3D viewing features if it ever got to that point.    The class I'm taking had several examples of really good GIS and digital images of Permaculture sites developed by Dr Andrea Laliberte at http://www.earthmetrics.com/ but when I contacted her she said that due to the limited GIS data for Van Buren County (like the lack of 2ft contour lines, low-level watershed pics and high resolution Lidar images) what she could do for my property wouldn't be much better than what I've been able to cobble together.  However, for the sites in Oregon used as examples, it's pretty impressive.

I hope to be able to stop by Paw Paw brewing Saturday after the tree pick up - though I may only be able to stay for 1 beer or so as Sue has me on a pretty short leash for other Saturday plans :)

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:24:01 AM UTC-4, pjch...@gmail.com wrote:

[Steve Sobeck]

Jon,

Not sure what County you're in, but using an open-source browser, Google Maps/Earth, the USGS maps data at http://www.usgs.gov/pubprod/ and County GIS data (like at http://www.vbco.org/maps/cismappg.asp) and some Open source tools like at http://permatechie.wordpress.com/2009/12/23/free-permaculture-design-software/ as well as GIMP ( http://www.gimp.org ), you could probably come up with some pretty good maps and plans without having to corrupt your computer with any proprietary software :).  Each of these tools/sites has somewhat of a learning curve, but if it's cold and snowy outside...

Steve

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:41:00 AM UTC-4, Jon Towne wrote

[Jon Towne]

Steve:  Thanks for the links.  I'm quite agnostic about open source vs proprietary, we do have a windows computer that is convenient for watching dvd's and the like.  I've found Linux to be trouble free and doesn't demand your attention frequently to keep things purring....  I've looked at the vbco site and see its usefullness.  I've never really seriously considered mapping this place after 33 yrs of tree planting some of which was per permaculture design.  But I think I need more time than is offered by a little bit of "cold and snow" in mid to late April and I think I will take this project seriously later on.  Jon

[John Newell]

Thanks Steve for all of the info on design software and so on. Are you still happy with "Realtime Landscaping Plus 2013?" Have you upgraded from the basic software? I have been downloading all sorts of maps from both vbco and usgs; very informative. I love the fact that I will be able to import and layer those into my design. To this point I have been using visio to do my design work, but it has been clunky to say the least. The lack of 2ft contour lines is problematic for me; have you surveyed your land?

My wife and I just bought a home and acreage in Van Buren. I am taking the Geoff Lawton on-line permaculture design course, and the design for our property will be the design I submit to complete the course work.

Thanks again,
John

[Steve Sobeck]

Hi John,

Congratulations on your land purchase!  If you feel up to giving a walking tour of it sometime, I'd be interested in seeing it - and there are some other folks in the group with some PDC experience who might be willing to share some ideas.   I am happy with the Realtime Landscaping Plus 2013 - my son and I used it along with the free PicPick software for our planting design (a couple of the example files are attached)  I didn't upgrade, not sure if an upgrade is available, but the version I have has been fine for our needs.  I never was able to find 2ft contour lines for our land in Porter township, but after reviewing the major contour layout we found that walking and just observing the more gradual contours on foot served our needs.   I'd be interested in your feedback on the Geoff Lawton PDC course and seeing your design - it's always good to see others' plans and ideas.  Good luck with it!

Steve

[John Newell]

Thanks Steve. We are just settling in. I suppose the rest of this year and winter will be about completing some necessary repairs to the home, plus surveying the landscape thoroughly, and putting the design together. For the surveys I plan to do contours at 1 foot intervals, as the property only has about 14 ft of elevation between its lowest and highest contours. Now how I take those contours from the land to the map is another question! Next year will be the start of implementation.

I'll be buying the Realtime Landscaping Plus today; thanks for your feedback.

So far so good on the Lawton course. His passion comes through loud and clear. The instruction is very clear and he keeps it simple and in manageable chunks. The design is required to pass the course, so I need to get moving on it.

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again,
John

[Brandi Lamere]

On Sunday, April 14, 2013 8:44:09 PM UTC-4, Steve Sobeck wrote:

How much was the Software? I am trying to create a Self-Sustainable Eco-Village on my 5 acres and my budget is tight right now because I can't find anyone who is interested in Helping, but this could help me greatly when I can afford to Purchase it! www.facebook.com/HelpBuildAnEcoVillage 

[Steve Sobeck]

Hi Brandi,

This is the review I used to select the software: http://landscaping-software-review.toptenreviews.com/ The Realtime Landscaping Plus software was 79.95 and details/purchase can be from: http://landscaping-software-review.toptenreviews.com/realtime-landscaping-plus-review.html  Since then, I've been doing most of my work using Google Earth images and PicPick software  http://www.picpick.org/en/  (both are free)  For larger sites, which it sounds like yours is, The Google Earth images give a good overview of the site and you can still go to places like your county GIS website and the USGS website: http://www.usgs.gov/ and import overly pictures that would include site boundaries, site topography and contour lines, and watershed information.  It's all free if you're willing to invest a little time in learning the different interfaces.  What the Landscaping software gives you is a little easier interface to use, a lot of plant images for designing your plots and some nice looking presentation software - but in general I've been able to do most of what I want with the free software.  Good luck with your various activities in Georgia - they sound interesting and ambitious and I wish you well!

Steve

[Mike Hagar]

Hi Steve,

I found your thread looking for "Permaculture Software".    I have also been using Realtime Landscaping 2012.  I have some images on the SpokanePermaculture.org website.   link here   where I am also the WebSlave.  I am very interested in all forms of software support for Permaculture but there does not seem to be much more than generic packages you can draw with. 

As a recently retired 40 year veteran software developer I started looking for software to help keep all of the new Permaculture information I was learning in some useable form.  I love the Realtime software for 3d modeling and it has been incredibly valuable.  However their list of plants is mainly for ornamental landscaping.  I have recently been working on what I call "The Plant Workbook" to help me keep track of the plants that are available for my area.  So far I am very excited about it.

Let me know if you would like a few screenshots.  I would love some feedback to fine tune the app and then find some beta testers.

Thanks,

Mike

[Steve Sobeck]

Mike,
Thanks for the link - it looks like you've got a nice project going! I see you also have challenges with deer 'volunteers'. I agree that there is room for improvement in the plant libraries of the landscape design software and I'd enjoy seeing some of your screenshots.
Steve

[pjch...@gmail.com]

Mike (and Steve), thanks for sharing your experiences. I really want to model a version of my forest garden to have more of a sense of what it might look like as it matures.

I've spent hours looking for something comparable for the Mac platform and so far the only real contender seems to be a confusing series of releases by Punch Software: http://www.punchsoftware.com/c-14-landscape-design.aspx (<-- confusing because the differences between the $50 version and the $500 version don't seem very substantial, plus they offer several variations on the same basic theme; some geared more toward interior/remodeling and some toward landscaping, with a lot of overlap). It would *seem* like the $50 version might do what I want, but I really have no way of knowing or running a trial version to see how many plants it includes. The reason I haven't taken the plunge to try it is that the reviews I found online were mostly-negative, many people complaining about the awful interface and difficulty of use.

Therefore I thought I'd try (Google?) Sketchup, because even though it's clumsy-looking and not made for landscapes, there's a free version and there are some open-source 3D plant models that you can download and import. I've worked with various graphics software for 20 years, and after spending a couple hours with this, I can say that it does not work worth a damn on my Mac, which handles Adobe Creative Suite with ease (the Windows version may be a lot better). I was finally able to import my base map, but when I tried to import ANY trees/shrubs/etc that I'd downloaded from their site, the program crashed, even on those that were under 100kb.

So for the moment I'm still looking, but if I get brave, I may end up trying the cheapest "Punch Landscape Design."
PJ

[Sam Ewbank]

That's discouraging hear about sketch-up, I had hopes after seeing some landscape posts online I had thought I might give it a try having used it a few years ago on home remodel design.
Maybe having a windoze or linnux operating system might work better or the $500 sketch-up pro version but that's more than what I could afford to invest in at this time.
Sam

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[Josh Shultz]

I am currently running Linux Ubuntu and it is fairly frustrating.  Google in all of their wisdom have not, and it seems will not be, releasing Sketchup for Linux.  Why I can't say as otherwise Google is pretty good about supporting open source technologies.  For doing plan views I am using Inkscape vecor graphics free software for Ubuntu and am fairly happy with it.  Unfortunately the biggest problems I am having are its compatibility issues with Illustrator.  Actually it's Illustrator that is having compatibility issues with everything else as Adobe makes Illustrator incompatible with everything else.  So if you are working with people who use Illustrator you can't read their vector files and they can only read the most basic formats of yours.  At least that is what I have been experiencing.  

I would like to find a 3D modeling program that can draw in plan vies but allow 3D perspectives and still be scale-able like vector allows.  Anyone have any leads on something like this?  What do the professionals use?

Joshua

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Joshua Shultz

Cedar Creek Permaculture

2105 Pifer Rd.

Delton, MI 49046

269.331.0461

CedarCreekPermaculture@gmail.com

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
— Mahatma Gandhi