Re: Vanagon Wiki: MODS?
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Mike South
May 4, 2010, 11:55:26 AM5/4/10
to BenT Syncro, van...@gerry.vanagon.com, vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:40 AM, BenT Syncro <syn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IIRC, there were a number of people who objected copying of their
> postings from the List. Someone took to the task of supposedly re-
> writing those postings in their own words before posting in the wiki.
>
> Please respect intellectual property rights.
And it isn't just the intellectual property question (although that of
course should not be ignored). It's also the question of reputation.
If you put something on the wiki saying "Bob said you could fix this
with tape", and that's not exactly what Bob said (he might have said
"I once used duct tape to get me over the last few miles, all the
while watching the lights and knowing I had a hose in the bench I
could use if it came on again"), you're hurting his credibility and
reputation.
I got the sense that there was at least as much concern among people
that they not be misquoted/misrepresented as there was that their
intellectual property was being appropriated without their consent
(not that those are mutually exclusive).
I think a good policy on the wiki would be that everyone take
responsibility for the content they write, and put links at the bottom
to the sources they used so that people can check for themselves what
the original/source authors said in other forums.
mike
>
>
> Regards,
>
> BenT
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> On May 4, 2010, at 7:33 AM, David Beierl <dbe...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> At 10:28 AM 5/4/2010, Mike \"Rocket J Squirrel\" wrote:
>>>
>>> Mods? There are two parts here: the search for recovered or saved
>>> material, which should be an open request; and the nuts and bolts of
>>> banging the thing back on the air. This latter would be of limited
>>> interest to most.
>>
>> Agreed. Let's keep the nuts and bolts part open for the rest of
>> today, then take it private.
>>
>> Yours,
>> David
>
> IIRC, there were a number of people who objected copying of their
> postings from the List. Someone took to the task of supposedly re-
> writing those postings in their own words before posting in the wiki.
>
> Please respect intellectual property rights.
And it isn't just the intellectual property question (although that of
course should not be ignored). It's also the question of reputation.
If you put something on the wiki saying "Bob said you could fix this
with tape", and that's not exactly what Bob said (he might have said
"I once used duct tape to get me over the last few miles, all the
while watching the lights and knowing I had a hose in the bench I
could use if it came on again"), you're hurting his credibility and
reputation.
I got the sense that there was at least as much concern among people
that they not be misquoted/misrepresented as there was that their
intellectual property was being appropriated without their consent
(not that those are mutually exclusive).
I think a good policy on the wiki would be that everyone take
responsibility for the content they write, and put links at the bottom
to the sources they used so that people can check for themselves what
the original/source authors said in other forums.
mike
>
>
> Regards,
>
> BenT
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> On May 4, 2010, at 7:33 AM, David Beierl <dbe...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> At 10:28 AM 5/4/2010, Mike \"Rocket J Squirrel\" wrote:
>>>
>>> Mods? There are two parts here: the search for recovered or saved
>>> material, which should be an open request; and the nuts and bolts of
>>> banging the thing back on the air. This latter would be of limited
>>> interest to most.
>>
>> Agreed. Let's keep the nuts and bolts part open for the rest of
>> today, then take it private.
>>
>> Yours,
>> David
>
Mike South
May 4, 2010, 12:12:41 PM5/4/10
to Alistair Bell, van...@gerry.vanagon.com, vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Alistair Bell <alb...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> This is said not to pooh-pooh the wiki suggestion, but rather to
> point out that there is a UK vanagon enthusiast's wiki here;
> http://wiki.club8090.co.uk/index.php/Main_Page
That's great. One good policy for our wiki would be to not duplicate
anything on any other wiki anywhere, as long as that wiki is open for
improvements. No point in wasting time repeating the information when
all we have to contribute is a little extra piece. Better to
contribute that little extra piece to the wiki that has it most of the
way there, and link.
>
> and also that Ron's site, with the easily recalled URL of
> www.vanagon.com, is a good place for new owners to look for basic info.
>
> and John Meek's (am I right that its his?) site http://
> www.vanagonauts.com/ has collected some of this mailing list's
> "wisdom" into a searchable site.
>
>
> Ok I will pooh-pooh the wiki idea a little.... it only works if
> people do contribute (mea culpa on a submission), otherwise it stalls
> and languishes.
Absolutely true.
>
> I'd like to suggest that one of the first entries in a new wiki would
> be a list of vanagon links. Pretty well all you need is out there in
> vacuumland, its just finding it that is the pain.
I'll pooh-pooh your idea that it's all out there--I agree, there is a
tremendous amount out there. But most of it is not editable, and thus
not improvable. A wiki is. That's a huge difference. One person may
have only one sentence to contribute, but that sentence could save
someone hours of time, or hundreds of dollars. In a forum you might
have to read six or sixty posts down to get that one sentence, make
sure you notice the "next page" link, etc. On a wiki it can be added
inline.
In the short time I've been on this list I've seen the same or similar
questions asked and answered multiple times. Every time someone comes
up with a new little tidbit. This, in my opinion, just screams for a
wiki.
Having said that--yes, it might fail. Most small businesses do.
Won't know unless we try. Maybe the only thing we get out of it is
your page of links :).
mike
>
> alistair
>
>
>
> On 4-May-10, at 7:14 AM, Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
>
> BTW, Guido's question yesterday about the silver socket is the perfect
> reason why a wiki would be nice to have again: a place to put
> frequently-asked questions. AND, anyone can write or edit an article,
> it's an open project.
>
> --
> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
> 74 Westrailia: (Ladybug Trailer company, San Juan Capistrano, Calif.)
> Bend, OR
> KG6RCR
>
> This is said not to pooh-pooh the wiki suggestion, but rather to
> point out that there is a UK vanagon enthusiast's wiki here;
> http://wiki.club8090.co.uk/index.php/Main_Page
That's great. One good policy for our wiki would be to not duplicate
anything on any other wiki anywhere, as long as that wiki is open for
improvements. No point in wasting time repeating the information when
all we have to contribute is a little extra piece. Better to
contribute that little extra piece to the wiki that has it most of the
way there, and link.
>
> and also that Ron's site, with the easily recalled URL of
> www.vanagon.com, is a good place for new owners to look for basic info.
>
> and John Meek's (am I right that its his?) site http://
> www.vanagonauts.com/ has collected some of this mailing list's
> "wisdom" into a searchable site.
>
>
> Ok I will pooh-pooh the wiki idea a little.... it only works if
> people do contribute (mea culpa on a submission), otherwise it stalls
> and languishes.
Absolutely true.
>
> I'd like to suggest that one of the first entries in a new wiki would
> be a list of vanagon links. Pretty well all you need is out there in
> vacuumland, its just finding it that is the pain.
I'll pooh-pooh your idea that it's all out there--I agree, there is a
tremendous amount out there. But most of it is not editable, and thus
not improvable. A wiki is. That's a huge difference. One person may
have only one sentence to contribute, but that sentence could save
someone hours of time, or hundreds of dollars. In a forum you might
have to read six or sixty posts down to get that one sentence, make
sure you notice the "next page" link, etc. On a wiki it can be added
inline.
In the short time I've been on this list I've seen the same or similar
questions asked and answered multiple times. Every time someone comes
up with a new little tidbit. This, in my opinion, just screams for a
wiki.
Having said that--yes, it might fail. Most small businesses do.
Won't know unless we try. Maybe the only thing we get out of it is
your page of links :).
mike
>
> alistair
>
>
>
> On 4-May-10, at 7:14 AM, Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
>
> BTW, Guido's question yesterday about the silver socket is the perfect
> reason why a wiki would be nice to have again: a place to put
> frequently-asked questions. AND, anyone can write or edit an article,
> it's an open project.
>
> --
> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
> 74 Westrailia: (Ladybug Trailer company, San Juan Capistrano, Calif.)
> Bend, OR
> KG6RCR
>
Mike South
May 4, 2010, 12:40:43 PM5/4/10
to Alistair Bell, van...@gerry.vanagon.com, vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Mike South <mso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Having said that--yes, it might fail. Most small businesses do.
Not to imply that it would be a commercial venture! Just to be clear.
> Having said that--yes, it might fail. Most small businesses do.
I meant it only as an analogy. Most things people start don't last.
Mike South
May 4, 2010, 1:03:35 PM5/4/10
to Karl Wolz, van...@gerry.vanagon.com, vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Karl Wolz <wolz...@q.com> wrote:
> That'll make searching a PITA. Nothing wrong with duplicate info. If done
> properly, this project should provide a one-stop location for all matters
> Vanagon, including Vanagon Rescue info. It could be downloadable to a DVD
> and carried in the glovebox.
That's an excellent idea. It would be tremendously optimistic to
think that we are going to be "the" place for all of that information,
but it's a good goal to strive for. Whoever is currently maintaining
the Rescue list may not agree to let us use the information that way.
It's possible that we could set up some kind of mirroring, but then
you get into the issue of whether your copy has been added to, etc.
I would say that we should probably start by seeing what we can get
going, with an eye toward one day being "the thing you want on DVD in
your glovebox". If we end up being that thing, then it will be
natural for people to either willingly contribute their data to the
wiki or there will be enough momentum at that point that it won't
matter because information can be reproduced or replaced by the
community.
I think the SocialText wiki was experimenting with an offline mode a
while back, but I don't know where it ended up (I believe mediawiki is
php with a mysql backend which might make it hard to get into offline
format--but maybe someone has already done the work of spidering and
caching a mediawiki to disk? Seems like we can't be the only ones
that have wanted that capability.)
Perhaps we should ask the question of downloadability before we add a
bunch of content to a wiki that would make it hard to do that.
Information about "elderly automobiles that people take to the
boonies" is definitely in a different class than other information in
the sense of how important downloadability is!
mike
>
> Links are fine, and should be included, but a complete guide would be
> better.
>
> Karl Wolz
> That'll make searching a PITA. Nothing wrong with duplicate info. If done
> properly, this project should provide a one-stop location for all matters
> Vanagon, including Vanagon Rescue info. It could be downloadable to a DVD
> and carried in the glovebox.
That's an excellent idea. It would be tremendously optimistic to
think that we are going to be "the" place for all of that information,
but it's a good goal to strive for. Whoever is currently maintaining
the Rescue list may not agree to let us use the information that way.
It's possible that we could set up some kind of mirroring, but then
you get into the issue of whether your copy has been added to, etc.
I would say that we should probably start by seeing what we can get
going, with an eye toward one day being "the thing you want on DVD in
your glovebox". If we end up being that thing, then it will be
natural for people to either willingly contribute their data to the
wiki or there will be enough momentum at that point that it won't
matter because information can be reproduced or replaced by the
community.
I think the SocialText wiki was experimenting with an offline mode a
while back, but I don't know where it ended up (I believe mediawiki is
php with a mysql backend which might make it hard to get into offline
format--but maybe someone has already done the work of spidering and
caching a mediawiki to disk? Seems like we can't be the only ones
that have wanted that capability.)
Perhaps we should ask the question of downloadability before we add a
bunch of content to a wiki that would make it hard to do that.
Information about "elderly automobiles that people take to the
boonies" is definitely in a different class than other information in
the sense of how important downloadability is!
mike
>
> Links are fine, and should be included, but a complete guide would be
> better.
>
> Karl Wolz
john.meeks
May 4, 2010, 1:47:54 PM5/4/10
to vanagonwiki
The Rescue Squad info lives in a postgresql database, but I'd be
willing to periodically create a pdf of the whole list and upload it
to the wiki. Anything else I can do I'm up for too...
John Meeks
'91 Multivan
Northern Michigan
Vanagon Rescue Squad
www.vanagonauts.com
willing to periodically create a pdf of the whole list and upload it
to the wiki. Anything else I can do I'm up for too...
John Meeks
'91 Multivan
Northern Michigan
Vanagon Rescue Squad
www.vanagonauts.com
Ron Lussier
May 4, 2010, 2:15:25 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:12 AM, Mike South <mso...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Alistair Bell <alb...@shaw.ca> wrote:That's great. One good policy for our wiki would be to not duplicate
> This is said not to pooh-pooh the wiki suggestion, but rather to
> point out that there is a UK vanagon enthusiast's wiki here;
> http://wiki.club8090.co.uk/index.php/Main_Page
anything on any other wiki anywhere, as long as that wiki is open for
improvements. No point in wasting time repeating the information when
all we have to contribute is a little extra piece. Better to
contribute that little extra piece to the wiki that has it most of the
way there, and link.
I'm with Karl in disagreeing with this. First, because as Karl said, the wiki should be a one-stop location. Secondly, however, I believe that we should have as light a touch as possible in dealing with user-generated content. There will be things that require editing, of course, but if someone contributes something we shouldn't remove it because that information exists somewhere else. (And as a corollary, we shouldn't discourage its contribution!)
Having said that--yes, it might fail. Most small businesses do.
Won't know unless we try. Maybe the only thing we get out of it is
your page of links :).
I'm currently looking for a new hosting service, because I'm not entirely happy with my current host. Part of that search will include wiki hosting and backup.
I also want to mention that I'm going to reserve the right to run ads on wiki content. Vanagon.com currently costs me about $400 a year to host. A better hosting service will be more expensive. I hope folks are understanding about this, and I think I've done a fairly good job of minimizing ad intrusion.
One more thing... part of my search will include WordPress hosting. Are any of you folks interested in contributing to a vanagon blog?
-c
ron lussier / lenscraft fine art photography
rlus...@lenscraft.com 89 crescent avenue
AIM coy...@me.com sausalito / ca 94965
http://www.lenscraft.com/ +1 415.669-4766
"Ignorance breeds monsters to fill up the vacancies of the soul that
are unoccupied by the verities of knowledge." - Horace Mann
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 4, 2010, 2:16:03 PM5/4/10
to Karl Wolz, van...@gerry.vanagon.com, vanag...@googlegroups.com
Karl Wolz wrote:
>
> I suggest that articles be organized to mirror the layout of Bentley, BTW.
> It would certainly make finding relevant data easier.
There was a section on the Old Wiki that mirrored the Bentley. No reason
not to retain that section. In the Technical section were Subject By
Bentley Numbering were Subject by Name. There was also Non-Technical by
Subject Name (awnings, solar, refrigerators, battery chargers, etc.) as
well as Links and other useful categories. The wayback machine still
shows the home page.
>
> I suggest that articles be organized to mirror the layout of Bentley, BTW.
> It would certainly make finding relevant data easier.
There was a section on the Old Wiki that mirrored the Bentley. No reason
not to retain that section. In the Technical section were Subject By
Bentley Numbering were Subject by Name. There was also Non-Technical by
Subject Name (awnings, solar, refrigerators, battery chargers, etc.) as
well as Links and other useful categories. The wayback machine still
shows the home page.
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 4, 2010, 2:23:35 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
Ron Lussier wrote:
>
> I'm currently looking for a new hosting service, because I'm not
> entirely happy with my current host. Part of that search will include
> wiki hosting and backup.
>
> I also want to mention that I'm going to reserve the right to run ads on
> wiki content. Vanagon.com currently costs me about $400 a year to
> host. A better hosting service will be more expensive. I hope folks
> are understanding about this, and I think I've done a fairly good job of
> minimizing ad intrusion.
Ron, many thanks to you for hosting vanagon.com, and that you should not
>
> I'm currently looking for a new hosting service, because I'm not
> entirely happy with my current host. Part of that search will include
> wiki hosting and backup.
>
> I also want to mention that I'm going to reserve the right to run ads on
> wiki content. Vanagon.com currently costs me about $400 a year to
> host. A better hosting service will be more expensive. I hope folks
> are understanding about this, and I think I've done a fairly good job of
> minimizing ad intrusion.
have to pay for that out of pocket.
For the wiki, whois tells me that John Bange is the registrar for the
vanagonwiki.net domain. Are you and he in discussion about you hosting it?
I have to confess that I feel that the vanagon wiki should be a
community project, and if someone can be found to host it no charge,
then I'd vote to go for that. But I don't feel strongly enough about it
to object if the group thinks it's a good idea.
> One more thing... part of my search will include WordPress hosting. Are
> any of you folks interested in contributing to a vanagon blog?
msouth
May 4, 2010, 3:46:11 PM5/4/10
to vanagonwiki
On May 4, 1:23 pm, "Mike \"Rocket J Squirrel\""
<camping.elli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ron Lussier wrote:
>
> > I'm currently looking for a new hosting service, because I'm not
> > entirely happy with my current host. Part of that search will include
> > wiki hosting and backup.
>
> > I also want to mention that I'm going to reserve the right to run ads on
> > wiki content. Vanagon.com currently costs me about $400 a year to
> > host. A better hosting service will be more expensive. I hope folks
> > are understanding about this, and I think I've done a fairly good job of
> > minimizing ad intrusion.
>
> Ron, many thanks to you for hosting vanagon.com, and that you should not
> have to pay for that out of pocket.
>
> For the wiki, whois tells me that John Bange is the registrar for the
> vanagonwiki.net domain. Are you and he in discussion about you hosting it?
There is an earlier post here http://groups.google.com/group/vanagonwiki/msg/56d2b962a66076d5
> Ron Lussier wrote:
>
> > I'm currently looking for a new hosting service, because I'm not
> > entirely happy with my current host. Part of that search will include
> > wiki hosting and backup.
>
> > I also want to mention that I'm going to reserve the right to run ads on
> > wiki content. Vanagon.com currently costs me about $400 a year to
> > host. A better hosting service will be more expensive. I hope folks
> > are understanding about this, and I think I've done a fairly good job of
> > minimizing ad intrusion.
>
> Ron, many thanks to you for hosting vanagon.com, and that you should not
> have to pay for that out of pocket.
>
> For the wiki, whois tells me that John Bange is the registrar for the
> vanagonwiki.net domain. Are you and he in discussion about you hosting it?
where Steve says he is about to set the wiki up and post the images.
So we should probably figure out what is going on with this before
anyone spends time that ends up wasted.
Obviously, the "where vanagonwiki.net gets hosted" question will
ultimately be decided by whoever owns the domain and Rocky implies
above. The question I want to discuss is, where should this be hosted
and how?
If we (meaning "we who want to contribute to a vanagon wiki") decided
to go with Ron as the host, we would need to let him post ads to cover
the cost. I think he's made that clear and he certainly has some
credibility in terms of having hosted vanagon.com, putting ads on it,
and doing it in such a way that the ads are not intrusive on the
content. Furthermore, I think his desire as stated is to cover the
cost of hosting, not to own the content (not to put words in his mouth
though--he would have to confirm).
Independent of who does it, hosting costs money and time, and that
alone means we need to make sure everyone's clear on who's putting up
what and what they're expecting as a result (like Ron has done with
his post--making it clear that if he hosts it it will have ads).
I think we all know from experience that as soon as any money is
involved things get tricky. Some people may not want their content up
there if someone has ads on it, for example (and if we decide to run
it with ads, we can tell those people to post their somewhere else--
I'm not concerned that we make every single person happy).
Steve has experience hosting mediawiki sites (as reported on the
vanagon list, also he sent us a link to one :) ). This is an
advantage in that it will probably decrease the drag it puts on his
time (compared to someone that hasn't run one, I mean). Adding just
one more is usually a lot easier that getting everything set up for
your first one.
For my personal preference, I agree with Rocky's statement that:
>
> I have to confess that I feel that the vanagon wiki should be a
> community project,
gets expensive in terms of storage and/or bandwidth, a natural way to
recoup that expense is to have ads on it. In my opinion, ads to cover
the cost and the time of the person maintaining are not objectionable.
To me the "community project" aspect that is most important to
preserve is the right to the content. If we have a sufficiently
flexible license on the content, then if someone feels that, say, ads
are too intrusive, or a .net domain is a bad idea (just throwing
things out there, crazy comes in all flavors!) they can just take the
content and repost it somewhere without ads, and if enough people
agree with them, that will be the source people use instead.
The situation I don't want to get into is anything where people have
put a lot of time into putting a site together (and I mean both from
the "providing content" end and the "hosting" end) and then suddenly
(or eventually) we find huge, incompatible differences in expectations
and no good way to resolve them.
As one person I know of put it, what you and the nice man across the
table you're making a deal with should do is to have your lawyers
pretend that both of you have just died and that your heirs hate each
other's guts. Until you really hammer it out at that level of detail,
there are always going to be assumptions that haven't been explicitly
stated. (e.g.: "Well, since I was hosting it I just assumed I would
be able to continue to host it, and it has taken time away from other
projects--the ad revenue is helping support me now, and now you say
you're going to put up a competing site with the same content?" or "I
didn't think my photographs were going to be used to make someone
money. I don't even make money off of my photography! Take my
pictures down!").
I think those problems can be largely avoided (but probably never
completely avoided) if we're all clear and direct (even if we need to
be uncomfortably direct) up front.
mike
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 4, 2010, 4:21:41 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
msouth wrote:
..eleventy-billion well-thought words about hosting.
There are a lot of angles to this thing.
I don't mind driving business in Ron's direction for his time and
effort. I prefer no ads but am not going to gripe if we end up with
them. I know that if I was hosting it here and was selling ad space on
it, I might just start feeling like the wiki was my "property."
Is there a way to have a non-commercial version hosted in one place,
with it mirrored on Ron's site with ads and value-added content of some
sort that I don't really know what I'm talking about?
..eleventy-billion well-thought words about hosting.
There are a lot of angles to this thing.
I don't mind driving business in Ron's direction for his time and
effort. I prefer no ads but am not going to gripe if we end up with
them. I know that if I was hosting it here and was selling ad space on
it, I might just start feeling like the wiki was my "property."
Is there a way to have a non-commercial version hosted in one place,
with it mirrored on Ron's site with ads and value-added content of some
sort that I don't really know what I'm talking about?
Ron Lussier
May 4, 2010, 4:24:38 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" <camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there a way to have a non-commercial version hosted in one place, with it mirrored on Ron's site with ads and value-added content of some sort that I don't really know what I'm talking about?
Mike,
The ads would be to compensate for the cost of hosting the wiki, so if you can find some hosting solution that is either contributed or otherwise without cost, then it doesn't make sense to duplicate the content.
-c
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 4, 2010, 4:27:27 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
Ron Lussier wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
> <camping...@gmail.com <mailto:camping...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Is there a way to have a non-commercial version hosted in one place,
> with it mirrored on Ron's site with ads and value-added content of
> some sort that I don't really know what I'm talking about?
>
>
> Mike,
>
> The ads would be to compensate for the cost of hosting the wiki, so if
> you can find some hosting solution that is either contributed or
> otherwise without cost, then it doesn't make sense to duplicate the
> content.
Yeah I know, but that's the point of the "value added" content that the
>
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
> <camping...@gmail.com <mailto:camping...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Is there a way to have a non-commercial version hosted in one place,
> with it mirrored on Ron's site with ads and value-added content of
> some sort that I don't really know what I'm talking about?
>
>
> Mike,
>
> The ads would be to compensate for the cost of hosting the wiki, so if
> you can find some hosting solution that is either contributed or
> otherwise without cost, then it doesn't make sense to duplicate the
> content.
ad-version might have.
Really not a well-thought out idea, I think. Sorry about the waste of
bandwidth. These aren't the droids you're looking for. You can go on
with your business.
Ron Lussier
May 4, 2010, 4:30:31 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 12:46 PM, msouth <mso...@gmail.com> wrote:
On May 4, 1:23 pm, "Mike \"Rocket J Squirrel\""
<camping.elli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ron Lussier wrote:
>
> > I'm currently looking for a new hosting service, because I'm not
> > entirely happy with my current host. Part of that search will include
> > wiki hosting and backup.
>
> > I also want to mention that I'm going to reserve the right to run ads on
> > wiki content. Vanagon.com currently costs me about $400 a year to
> > host. A better hosting service will be more expensive. I hope folks
> > are understanding about this, and I think I've done a fairly good job of
> > minimizing ad intrusion.
>
> Ron, many thanks to you for hosting vanagon.com, and that you should not
> have to pay for that out of pocket.
>
> For the wiki, whois tells me that John Bange is the registrar for the
> vanagonwiki.net domain. Are you and he in discussion about you hosting it?
If we (meaning "we who want to contribute to a vanagon wiki") decided
to go with Ron as the host, we would need to let him post ads to cover
the cost. I think he's made that clear and he certainly has some
credibility in terms of having hosted vanagon.com, putting ads on it,
and doing it in such a way that the ads are not intrusive on the
content. Furthermore, I think his desire as stated is to cover the
cost of hosting, not to own the content (not to put words in his mouth
though--he would have to confirm).
Confirmed :-)
I think we all know from experience that as soon as any money is
involved things get tricky. Some people may not want their content up
there if someone has ads on it, for example (and if we decide to run
it with ads, we can tell those people to post their somewhere else--
I'm not concerned that we make every single person happy).
Thank god for that. It's impossible to have everyone be happy. I have a personal rule... unless you're doing the work or otherwise contributing, your vote counts for very little. It's easy to kvetch from the sidelines.
As one person I know of put it, what you and the nice man across the
table you're making a deal with should do is to have your lawyers
pretend that both of you have just died and that your heirs hate each
other's guts. Until you really hammer it out at that level of detail,
there are always going to be assumptions that haven't been explicitly
stated. (e.g.: "Well, since I was hosting it I just assumed I would
be able to continue to host it, and it has taken time away from other
projects--the ad revenue is helping support me now, and now you say
you're going to put up a competing site with the same content?" or "I
didn't think my photographs were going to be used to make someone
money. I don't even make money off of my photography! Take my
pictures down!").
In the entire history of vanagon.com, there has only been one case where someone asked to have things removed. (That was noted curmudgeon Bob Hoover. :-)
I think those problems can be largely avoided (but probably never
completely avoided) if we're all clear and direct (even if we need to
be uncomfortably direct) up front.
Absolutely.
-c
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 4, 2010, 4:44:28 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
Ron Lussier wrote:
> In the entire history of vanagon.com <http://vanagon.com>, there has
>
Ah yes, well, Bob. I've been to his house/shop a couple times. Years ago
he taught me a lot about the aircooled engines. But he was touchy.
> In the entire history of vanagon.com <http://vanagon.com>, there has
> only been one case where someone asked to have things removed. (That
> was noted curmudgeon Bob Hoover <http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/>. :-)
>
Ah yes, well, Bob. I've been to his house/shop a couple times. Years ago
he taught me a lot about the aircooled engines. But he was touchy.
Peter D
May 4, 2010, 7:28:05 PM5/4/10
to vanagonwiki
So one of my classmates from college started this little company
called Dreamhost that has free mediawiki hosting. They probably run
ads on it, and it's shared hosting so it might not be the fastest page
loads in the west, but it remains a ripping good deal and I think a
fine way to start things off.
http://www.dreamhostapps.com/free-mediawiki-hosting.html
As for introduction of myself, I'm a professional "wiki gardener" in
higher education (one of my hats, anyway) and probably have more hours
being elbow deep in wiki markup than I have hours being elbow-deep in
my VW vans, so I'm eager to contribute on one front while I learn on
the other.
Cheers,
Peter
On May 4, 1:24 pm, Ron Lussier <rluss...@lenscraft.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" <
>
> AIM coy...@me.com sausalito / ca 94965http://www.lenscraft.com/ +1 415.669-4766
called Dreamhost that has free mediawiki hosting. They probably run
ads on it, and it's shared hosting so it might not be the fastest page
loads in the west, but it remains a ripping good deal and I think a
fine way to start things off.
http://www.dreamhostapps.com/free-mediawiki-hosting.html
As for introduction of myself, I'm a professional "wiki gardener" in
higher education (one of my hats, anyway) and probably have more hours
being elbow deep in wiki markup than I have hours being elbow-deep in
my VW vans, so I'm eager to contribute on one front while I learn on
the other.
Cheers,
Peter
On May 4, 1:24 pm, Ron Lussier <rluss...@lenscraft.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" <
>
> camping.elli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there a way to have a non-commercial version hosted in one place, with
> > it mirrored on Ron's site with ads and value-added content of some sort that
> > I don't really know what I'm talking about?
>
> Mike,
>
> The ads would be to compensate for the cost of hosting the wiki, so if you
> can find some hosting solution that is either contributed or otherwise
> without cost, then it doesn't make sense to duplicate the content.
>
> -c
>
> --
> ------------------------------
> ron lussier / lenscraft fine art photography
> rluss...@lenscraft.com 89 crescent avenue
> > Is there a way to have a non-commercial version hosted in one place, with
> > it mirrored on Ron's site with ads and value-added content of some sort that
> > I don't really know what I'm talking about?
>
> Mike,
>
> The ads would be to compensate for the cost of hosting the wiki, so if you
> can find some hosting solution that is either contributed or otherwise
> without cost, then it doesn't make sense to duplicate the content.
>
> -c
>
> --
> ------------------------------
> ron lussier / lenscraft fine art photography
> AIM coy...@me.com sausalito / ca 94965http://www.lenscraft.com/ +1 415.669-4766
Steve Williams
May 4, 2010, 7:47:08 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
Thanks to all for a good discussion of the hosting questions.
Just for the record: I'm willing to host the wiki at no charge on my
server at SFCCP:
http://www.sbw.org/sfccp/
I pay SFCCP a nominal amount for colocation, and I pay a sysadmin a
nominal amount to help me keep the server up to date. Those costs
support my work as a contract programmer, so I don't need to recover
those costs from the community web sites I host, such as www.bondline.org.
I would insist that all content be licensed CC BY NC SA or better:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/us/
That's just so it's clear nobody can make money directly from your
work or mine without permission. All authors would retain copyright
on their words and images, so they may license them commercially if
they choose.
I would not permit advertising on a wiki hosted on my server.
The one drawback to accepting my offer of free hosting is that
sometimes I take awhile to get tasks done. In general, the more
demanded of me by the community, the more responsive I am.
If you all want me to host the wiki, I'll set up Mediawiki so you can
point a hostname at it.
Just for the record: I'm willing to host the wiki at no charge on my
server at SFCCP:
http://www.sbw.org/sfccp/
I pay SFCCP a nominal amount for colocation, and I pay a sysadmin a
nominal amount to help me keep the server up to date. Those costs
support my work as a contract programmer, so I don't need to recover
those costs from the community web sites I host, such as www.bondline.org.
I would insist that all content be licensed CC BY NC SA or better:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/us/
That's just so it's clear nobody can make money directly from your
work or mine without permission. All authors would retain copyright
on their words and images, so they may license them commercially if
they choose.
I would not permit advertising on a wiki hosted on my server.
The one drawback to accepting my offer of free hosting is that
sometimes I take awhile to get tasks done. In general, the more
demanded of me by the community, the more responsive I am.
If you all want me to host the wiki, I'll set up Mediawiki so you can
point a hostname at it.
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 4, 2010, 8:11:39 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
Steve Williams wrote:
> Thanks to all for a good discussion of the hosting questions.
>
> Just for the record: I'm willing to host the wiki at no charge on my
> server at SFCCP:
>
Someone's going to have to make a decision, guys.
> Thanks to all for a good discussion of the hosting questions.
>
> Just for the record: I'm willing to host the wiki at no charge on my
> server at SFCCP:
>
Mike South
May 4, 2010, 11:40:49 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com, John Bange, Sudhir Desai
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
<camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Steve Williams wrote:
>>
>> Thanks to all for a good discussion of the hosting questions.
>>
>> Just for the record: I'm willing to host the wiki at no charge on my
>> server at SFCCP:
>>
>
> Someone's going to have to make a decision, guys.
My recommendation (no offense intended to any other offers) would be
<camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Steve Williams wrote:
>>
>> Thanks to all for a good discussion of the hosting questions.
>>
>> Just for the record: I'm willing to host the wiki at no charge on my
>> server at SFCCP:
>>
>
> Someone's going to have to make a decision, guys.
to go with what Steve is offering.
All other things being equal, Steve's offer was first by timestamp (if
you count the earlier post that he would set it up and load the
images), and is unencumbered by the ad question.
Although, as I said earlier, I don't mind
ads-to-pay-for-bandwidth-as-described-by-Ron at all. But if Steve can
do it without that, it's one less thing for people to be able to
complain about or for us to need to carefully consider the future
implications of.
The condition Steve is imposing (a non-commercial, attribution
required, share and share alike) is the condition that would allow any
of us, should we end up hating Steve's guts at some point in the
future, to mirror the content ourselves [which isn't what would
happen, probably--what would happen would be that someone would say
"whine whine whine Steve whine whine whine" and we can say "it's
non-commercial attribution share alike, if you don't like what Steve
has done, go post it on your own host" and then they will say "but
that's not what I wanted to do, I wanted to whine" and we can say
"yeah, that's what we figured you wanted". I digress.].
So, I guess what I'm saying is that I move that we accept Steve's
offer and start building this thing.
Yeas? Nays? Further discussion?
mike
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 4, 2010, 11:44:55 PM5/4/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
Mike South wrote:
> So, I guess what I'm saying is that I move that we accept Steve's
> offer and start building this thing.
>
> Yeas? Nays? Further discussion?
>
What Mike said. Yea, in other words.
> So, I guess what I'm saying is that I move that we accept Steve's
> offer and start building this thing.
>
> Yeas? Nays? Further discussion?
>
Marius Strom
May 5, 2010, 12:05:56 AM5/5/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
Sounds perfect. And if we want to start with backups from day one, I'm happy
to provide mirroring services to my co-located system. :)
Steve - let me know if you need a hand getting the MediaWiki stuff setup.
to provide mirroring services to my co-located system. :)
Steve - let me know if you need a hand getting the MediaWiki stuff setup.
Jake de Villiers
May 5, 2010, 12:41:59 AM5/5/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com, John Bange, Sudhir Desai
I'll vote for Steve to host - thirded--
Jake
1984 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX 'The Grey Van'
1986 Westy Weekender/2.5 SOHC Suby 'Dixie'
Crescent Beach, BC
www.thebassspa.com
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
Jake
1984 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX 'The Grey Van'
1986 Westy Weekender/2.5 SOHC Suby 'Dixie'
Crescent Beach, BC
www.thebassspa.com
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
http://subyjake.googlepages.com/mydixiedarlin%27
Sudhir Desai
May 5, 2010, 7:58:46 AM5/5/10
to Jake de Villiers, John Bange, vanag...@googlegroups.com
vote for steve to host fourthed.
On May 5, 2010 12:41 AM, "Jake de Villiers" <crescentb...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll vote for Steve to host - thirded
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 8:40 PM, Mike South <mso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:...
--
Jake
1984 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX 'The Grey Van'
1986 Westy Weekender/2.5 SOHC Suby 'Dixie'
Crescent B...
Sudhir Desai
May 5, 2010, 8:00:46 AM5/5/10
to Mike South, John Bange, vanag...@googlegroups.com
Steve's offer timestamp, for technicalities sake, was from last year/early this year. ;)
On May 4, 2010 11:40 PM, "Mike South" <mso...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
<camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Steve ...
> 74 West...
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 5, 2010, 9:45:38 AM5/5/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com, Mike South, John Bange
Sudhir Desai wrote:
> Steve's offer timestamp, for technicalities sake, was from last
> year/early this year. ;)
I can confirm that. In fact, I believe it was Steve who first determined
> Steve's offer timestamp, for technicalities sake, was from last
> year/early this year. ;)
that the articles had not been included in Sudhir's backup.
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
Mike South
May 5, 2010, 10:40:08 AM5/5/10
to Mike Rocket J Squirrel, vanag...@googlegroups.com, John Bange
At this point I think continued discussion will only slow the momentum
of what was basically already happening without our input anyway :).
I say "let's go!".
I am in the middle of an automatic-to-manual conversion, so I think my
first effort is going to be seeking permission from some members on
thesamba to repost their instructions that I'm working from.
I also have the 2010 Bostic conversion still in the boxes, so perhaps
I could take pictures of that to give people an idea of what it
entails.
I think that the best thing to do now would be to start getting content up.
mike
of what was basically already happening without our input anyway :).
I say "let's go!".
I am in the middle of an automatic-to-manual conversion, so I think my
first effort is going to be seeking permission from some members on
thesamba to repost their instructions that I'm working from.
I also have the 2010 Bostic conversion still in the boxes, so perhaps
I could take pictures of that to give people an idea of what it
entails.
I think that the best thing to do now would be to start getting content up.
mike
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 5, 2010, 10:44:28 AM5/5/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
Mike South wrote:
> I think a good policy on the wiki would be that everyone take
> responsibility for the content they write, and put links at the bottom
> to the sources they used so that people can check for themselves what
> the original/source authors said in other forums.
I could not agree more. Prior to quoting someone, I sent them an email
> I think a good policy on the wiki would be that everyone take
> responsibility for the content they write, and put links at the bottom
> to the sources they used so that people can check for themselves what
> the original/source authors said in other forums.
asking for their permission. I explained the context, and showed the
words I wanted to use. When permission was received, I sent the article
link to the author for feedback. If no gripes, no change; if gripe,
change as needed.
While most usually said, "Sure, use whatever you want," others
emphasized that they wanted me to use their words /exactly/ as written
"because I've been quoted before and they changed my words." *
What I could not quite come to grips with was how to effectively format
the attribution of gerry.vanagon.com (list) quotes. It would be nice to
be able to provide an actual link to the original post.
So I usually said something like:
"I.P. Freely said `...get your finger out of your mouth, you don't know
where it's been!' (vanagon.com mailing list, `Re: Fuck tires! Can we
talk about something else?????,' 3 March 2008)"
As a side issue, referencing listserv quotes is a vague art, near as I
can tell. Best I could do is point someone to the general date as shgown
in my fine example, above. If someone knows how to link to a post
directly, please advise.
I prefer inline citations to bottom citations for two reasons. The first
is personal: inline can be written as part of the text flow and that's
how I roll; the second is because writing inline is easier for the
average Joe than learning how to format footnotes in wiki.
As it was, many people were intimidated from posting articles in the
wiki because they found the interface and the way it does things
complicated. I frequently invited listees to write up little wiki
article about some interesting modification or bit of knowhow they
possessed, and many said that they could not figure out how to even
start a new article on the wiki. Asking them to get into fancy footnote
formatting would be a bit much.
Attribution is essential, but whether inline or footnoted doesn't matter.
Somewhere in this discussion, over the past two days or so, someone
proposed that anything a listee posts should be fair game for free use
and that's just the way it is. I don't agree.
================
* I wonder if those who said to me that others have used their words but
changed them are the same folk who complained to BenT that the wiki
stole their words. There are only so many ways to describe removing a
spark plug and maybe we have a few loose nuts out there who see any
words about removing a spark plug and think they recognize their
writing? As I mentioned before, the wiki has a built in, transparent,
revision history log and anyone can see who wrote what. If someone was
actually lifting the words of others, the miscreant can be warned, then
banned.
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 5, 2010, 10:49:38 AM5/5/10
to Mike South, vanag...@googlegroups.com, John Bange
Mike South wrote:
> At this point I think continued discussion will only slow the momentum
> of what was basically already happening without our input anyway :).
>
> I say "let's go!".
>
Let us know when it's live.
> At this point I think continued discussion will only slow the momentum
> of what was basically already happening without our input anyway :).
>
> I say "let's go!".
>
Side requests: There is an extension for mediawiki that tacks on an
optional, WYSIWYG editor, if you can add that, it would be swell.
Also, some of the articles I wrote really needed formatting for simple
math equations (electricity eggheadery) and there's a math extension out
there, too, but the original host could not get it to work. Some fancy
php or something.
Mike South
May 5, 2010, 11:03:59 AM5/5/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
<camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Side requests: There is an extension for mediawiki that tacks on an
> optional, WYSIWYG editor, if you can add that, it would be swell.
>
> Also, some of the articles I wrote really needed formatting for simple math
> equations (electricity eggheadery) and there's a math extension out there,
> too, but the original host could not get it to work. Some fancy php or
> something.
I think both of those are excellent ideas. I would prioritize going
<camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Side requests: There is an extension for mediawiki that tacks on an
> optional, WYSIWYG editor, if you can add that, it would be swell.
>
> Also, some of the articles I wrote really needed formatting for simple math
> equations (electricity eggheadery) and there's a math extension out there,
> too, but the original host could not get it to work. Some fancy php or
> something.
live over going live with those things added if it would delay the go
live. There is momentum now and people waiting to add content, so
best if we can capture that.
It is very clear that the community will be producing mathematical
content, and since we have people who are extremely vanagon-literate
that might not be web-literate, wysiwyg is also something that could
be a tremendous benefit.
Here is a wysiwyg extension to mediawiki:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Wikiwyg
Steve, let me know if there is a way I can help out.
mike
neil n
May 5, 2010, 2:22:46 PM5/5/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
<camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
.....
> "I.P. Freely said `...get your finger out of your mouth, you don't know
> where it's been!' (vanagon.com mailing list, `Re: Fuck tires! Can we talk
> about something else?????,' 3 March 2008)"
>
> As a side issue, referencing listserv quotes is a vague art, near as I can
> tell. Best I could do is point someone to the general date as shgown in my
> fine example, above. If someone knows how to link to a post directly, please
> advise.
If one knows the general date and contributors name or email, why not
search and provide a direct link? Like this:
(searched "coolant" with "Elliot" in email field):
http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0408D&L=vanagon&P=R5633
;)
> I prefer inline citations to bottom citations for two reasons. The first is
> personal: inline can be written as part of the text flow and that's how I
> roll; the second is because writing inline is easier for the average Joe
> than learning how to format footnotes in wiki.
In Gmail, one can enable rich formatting and insert an HTML link as a phrase.
"My tire choice? Gnarly Gnobs" (Clicking on "Gnarly Gnobs" links to
Tire Rack page or whatever)
Assuming a Wiki supports that kind of text, could one enable their web
browser to enter this type of link into a Wiki article? Or is that
something that gets written into the page source of the Wiki site for
the end user to see/use?
> As it was, many people were intimidated from posting articles in the wiki
> because they found the interface and the way it does things complicated. I
> frequently invited listees to write up little wiki article about some
> interesting modification or bit of knowhow they possessed, and many said
> that they could not figure out how to even start a new article on the wiki.
> Asking them to get into fancy footnote formatting would be a bit much.
Even though I'm somewhat computer savvy, the initial *minor* issue I
had with Wiki was finding a web browser that would play nice with the
Wiki web site. Maybe something that could be put "up front" so future
contributors would know in advance. "This website works best with ___
on Mac, and ___ on PC".
On that note, if the site were passworded, maybe users/contributors
would be "forced" to start with a page containing basic instructions +
links, and possibly a "terms of use" link? Not to lend any kind of
strict "flavour" to any of this. ......
Neil.
--
Neil Nicholson '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco"
http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
<camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
.....
> "I.P. Freely said `...get your finger out of your mouth, you don't know
> where it's been!' (vanagon.com mailing list, `Re: Fuck tires! Can we talk
> about something else?????,' 3 March 2008)"
>
> As a side issue, referencing listserv quotes is a vague art, near as I can
> tell. Best I could do is point someone to the general date as shgown in my
> fine example, above. If someone knows how to link to a post directly, please
> advise.
search and provide a direct link? Like this:
(searched "coolant" with "Elliot" in email field):
http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0408D&L=vanagon&P=R5633
;)
> I prefer inline citations to bottom citations for two reasons. The first is
> personal: inline can be written as part of the text flow and that's how I
> roll; the second is because writing inline is easier for the average Joe
> than learning how to format footnotes in wiki.
"My tire choice? Gnarly Gnobs" (Clicking on "Gnarly Gnobs" links to
Tire Rack page or whatever)
Assuming a Wiki supports that kind of text, could one enable their web
browser to enter this type of link into a Wiki article? Or is that
something that gets written into the page source of the Wiki site for
the end user to see/use?
> As it was, many people were intimidated from posting articles in the wiki
> because they found the interface and the way it does things complicated. I
> frequently invited listees to write up little wiki article about some
> interesting modification or bit of knowhow they possessed, and many said
> that they could not figure out how to even start a new article on the wiki.
> Asking them to get into fancy footnote formatting would be a bit much.
had with Wiki was finding a web browser that would play nice with the
Wiki web site. Maybe something that could be put "up front" so future
contributors would know in advance. "This website works best with ___
on Mac, and ___ on PC".
On that note, if the site were passworded, maybe users/contributors
would be "forced" to start with a page containing basic instructions +
links, and possibly a "terms of use" link? Not to lend any kind of
strict "flavour" to any of this. ......
Neil.
--
Neil Nicholson '81 VanaJetta 2.0 "Jaco"
http://tubaneil.googlepages.com/
http://groups.google.com/group/vanagons-with-vw-inline-4-cylinder-gas-engines
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 5, 2010, 3:02:20 PM5/5/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
neil n wrote:
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
> <camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If one knows the general date and contributors name or email, why not
> search and provide a direct link? Like this:
>
> (searched "coolant" with "Elliot" in email field):
>
> http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0408D&L=vanagon&P=R5633
Perfect. I don't usually use the search function because it's so slow.
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
> <camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If one knows the general date and contributors name or email, why not
> search and provide a direct link? Like this:
>
> (searched "coolant" with "Elliot" in email field):
>
> http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0408D&L=vanagon&P=R5633
But I will now for attribution.
>
>> I prefer inline citations to bottom citations for two reasons. The first is
>> personal: inline can be written as part of the text flow and that's how I
>> roll; the second is because writing inline is easier for the average Joe
>> than learning how to format footnotes in wiki.
>
>
> In Gmail, one can enable rich formatting and insert an HTML link as a phrase.
don't know if there is an addon that allows one to compose in gmail and
phone the article in. But anyway, let's keep in mind that inserting
links is really advanced formatting to a lot of users and I don't want
to discourage contributors by making the learning curve too steep or
high. Plaintext articles can be very useful, too.
> Even though I'm somewhat computer savvy, the initial *minor* issue I
> had with Wiki was finding a web browser that would play nice with the
> Wiki web site.
to play nice with the OW and all the Mediawiki sites I view. The
rich-text addon editor had some kind of issue that I can't recall and I
had to go back to the default clunk-o-matic editor. That also wasn't
browser specific. Well, it's something to re-visit once the wiki's up.
> On that note, if the site were passworded, maybe users/contributors
> would be "forced" to start with a page containing basic instructions +
> links, and possibly a "terms of use" link? Not to lend any kind of
> strict "flavour" to any of this. ......
was a link on the front page to the usage section. It would make me
loony if I had to bang through some mandatory usage pages whenever I
logged in to change a spelling error on an article I'd written. But
maybe a one-time "I agree" button at the bottom of a usage section when
first registering?
Though the various articles reflected the poster's computer-savvyosity
and ability to write, I never saw any articles that needed to be taken
down due to copyright or were plain unreadable. Mostly they were earnest
descriptions of How I Did It and How It Works.
neil n
May 5, 2010, 3:23:43 PM5/5/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
> I don't
> know if there is an addon that allows one to compose in gmail and phone the
> article in.
Good suggestion. Maybe a simple copy and paste of text would suffice too. i.e.
http://sites.google.com/site/vanagonlinks/link-test
Clicking on "Link" takes you to same page. "Link" et al created in a
Gmail email w/rich text on. Copied, pasted into a new web page. I
assume the same would happen within a Wiki page.
> But anyway, let's keep in mind that inserting links is really
> advanced formatting to a lot of users and I don't want to discourage
> contributors by making the learning curve too steep or high. Plaintext
> articles can be very useful, too.
For sure. Good point. I tend to see things through my eyes. It's all
aboot me! ;)
>> Even though I'm somewhat computer savvy, the initial *minor* issue I
>> had with Wiki was finding a web browser that would play nice with the
>> Wiki web site.
>
> I use Chrome, Firefox, and IE on Windows and ubuntu and they all seemed to
> play nice with the OW and all the Mediawiki sites I view. The rich-text
> addon editor had some kind of issue that I can't recall and I had to go back
> to the default clunk-o-matic editor. That also wasn't browser specific.
> Well, it's something to re-visit once the wiki's up.
In my case, I'm one of the minority Mac users. Safari (default Mac web
browser) development seems to be waning. This was the browser with the
issue IIRC. Maybe browser/platform research and advice isn't needed.
<shrugs>
> The old wiki required registration to post articles and edit them. There was
> a link on the front page to the usage section. It would make me loony if I
> had to bang through some mandatory usage pages whenever I logged in to
> change a spelling error on an article I'd written. But maybe a one-time "I
> agree" button at the bottom of a usage section when first registering?
For sure. I bet that should suffice. We don't want you going loony. Heh.
<camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
> neil n wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
>> <camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> If one knows the general date and contributors name or email, why not
>> search and provide a direct link? Like this:
>>
>> (searched "coolant" with "Elliot" in email field):
>>
>> http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0408D&L=vanagon&P=R5633
>
> Perfect. I don't usually use the search function because it's so slow. But I
> will now for attribution.
Yah they're faster now, but all this 'net stuff takes time somehow. :)
> neil n wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
>> <camping...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> If one knows the general date and contributors name or email, why not
>> search and provide a direct link? Like this:
>>
>> (searched "coolant" with "Elliot" in email field):
>>
>> http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0408D&L=vanagon&P=R5633
>
> Perfect. I don't usually use the search function because it's so slow. But I
> will now for attribution.
> I don't
> know if there is an addon that allows one to compose in gmail and phone the
> article in.
http://sites.google.com/site/vanagonlinks/link-test
Clicking on "Link" takes you to same page. "Link" et al created in a
Gmail email w/rich text on. Copied, pasted into a new web page. I
assume the same would happen within a Wiki page.
> But anyway, let's keep in mind that inserting links is really
> advanced formatting to a lot of users and I don't want to discourage
> contributors by making the learning curve too steep or high. Plaintext
> articles can be very useful, too.
aboot me! ;)
>> Even though I'm somewhat computer savvy, the initial *minor* issue I
>> had with Wiki was finding a web browser that would play nice with the
>> Wiki web site.
>
> I use Chrome, Firefox, and IE on Windows and ubuntu and they all seemed to
> play nice with the OW and all the Mediawiki sites I view. The rich-text
> addon editor had some kind of issue that I can't recall and I had to go back
> to the default clunk-o-matic editor. That also wasn't browser specific.
> Well, it's something to re-visit once the wiki's up.
browser) development seems to be waning. This was the browser with the
issue IIRC. Maybe browser/platform research and advice isn't needed.
<shrugs>
> The old wiki required registration to post articles and edit them. There was
> a link on the front page to the usage section. It would make me loony if I
> had to bang through some mandatory usage pages whenever I logged in to
> change a spelling error on an article I'd written. But maybe a one-time "I
> agree" button at the bottom of a usage section when first registering?
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
May 5, 2010, 4:52:13 PM5/5/10
to vanag...@googlegroups.com
neil n wrote:
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
>> It would make me loony if I
>> had to bang through some mandatory usage pages ...
>
> For sure. I bet that should suffice. We don't want you going loony. Heh.
That's right. I expect this thing tailored to my needs, none else.
> For sure. I bet that should suffice. We don't want you going loony. Heh.
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