Re: [vaccination-respectful-debate] Autism and vaccination

[Harry Phillips]

The only evidence I have ever seen that supports the vaccine / autism link is "mommy instinct", anecdotes, a court case or two that awarded compensation for encephalitis and a discredited study with a total of 12 kids in it.

As far as being evidence worth anything none make it past "What the hell?"

On 30 March 2013 13:14, JC <jc_bi...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

Hi all.

Just was after a recap of why people think vaccinations cause autism.  Can you please supply references for this claim?

Thanks.

John

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Vaccination-Respectful Debate" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vaccination-respectf...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send an email to vaccination-re...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vaccination-respectful-debate?hl=en-GB.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--

Regards,

Harry Phillips

[John Cunningham]

I'm glad you have those beliefs, and respect them as beliefs.  Unfortunately they lack any evidence, but clearly that has never been a concern for anti-vaccination proponents.  

Why do I think they've risen?  Diagnostic criteria have widened enormously, which is why you now talk about ASD, and not autism.  Why else?  I don't know, but it's clearly not related to the number of antigens that the children are receiving, is it?

John

On 31/03/2013, at 11:19 AM, Bek <bekril...@gmail.com> wrote:

JC,

I personally believe vaccines can cause autism. I do not believe that there are any real studies to show that the countless neurotoxins in vaccines are completely harmless. I do not believe that it is just coincidental that some children develop ASD symptoms immediately after vaccination. I do not believe that the increase in autism is just from better diagnostic criteria.

I also do not believe the Federal vaccine injury compensation program (and court cases from around the world) would award millions of dollars to children who developed autism after vaccination if there was no link.

Here is just one reference:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22099159

JC, what do you think the rise in autism is related to?

Bek

On Saturday, March 30, 2013 2:14:24 PM UTC+11, JC wrote:

Hi all.

Just was after a recap of why people think vaccinations cause autism.  Can you please supply references for this claim?

Thanks.

John

[John Cunningham]

Christine, which court are you referring to?  And when did courts become arbiters of science?  

What is the cause of autism?  I don't know, but I do know that it is a very difficult problem for the families and the patients to manage.  Is there strong evidence that it has anything to do with vaccination?  No.  Quite clearly.  No.

John

On 31/03/2013, at 2:09 PM, QldKiwi <christine...@gmail.com> wrote:

JC I don't have references. However, I believe that you can't just generalize that autism is or isn't caused by vaccination. Neither can you say it is or isn't genetic. Before anyone (and I mean ANYONE - both sides of the debate) is ready to stipulate that they are correct in their beliefs, they should live with an autistic person for a while. That experience would be the only credentials that would be needed.
When living with an autistic person you will develop a kind of radar and notice people with the traits of autism much more readily, and realize just how many people are living with an ASD victim.  It is a handicap, just like blindness, deafness or someone crippled. You can't ask a blind person to see, a deaf person to hear or a cripple to walk, although the person with the handicap could look quite normal.  Neither can you ask an autistic person to communicate. You can look at the eyes of an autistic person and know that whatever you are saying is just not being absorbed or understood. You would have more sense banging your head against a brick wall. What can anyone do to break down that barrier that they have, and what causes it? It is like trying to phone someone but the connection is broken. What will it take to reconnect?  I believe that there is a chemical missing in the brain.  Did it happen when the child was developing in the womb? Was there a weakness in the genetic makeup from the parent? Was there a chemical in the vaccine that broke the connections? I don't know but neither does anyone else at this point JC.  I do wonder how there can be studies denying the link to vaccines when courts have awarded large sums to people and found in favor of the claim that it was caused by vaccination. How can you explain that JC? Are the vaccination injury courts wrong?

[Katie Brockie]

Hi Bek,

I'll butt in here! When diagnosing autism, and other conditions on the spectrum, doctors use a guide called the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). Over the last decade or so, the guides to diagnosing conditions on the spectrum have changed. For example, back in the '60s, children were diagnosed as "retarded", or "slow learners", "developmentally delayed", who nowadays might be diagnosed as having aspergers, or autism, or ADHD, etc. There is no biological test for autism. The understanding of what it is, behaviourally, is still evolving.

Now, when diagnosing diseases whose numbers have dropped hugely after vaccination, it is possible to use biological tests - eg blood tests; to correctly diagnose the illness.

Hope that helps,

Katie

[Harry Phillips]

Is that why you believe in the magic, mystical, no logic, no evidence, no basis in reality GNM?

On 4 April 2013 09:41, punter <trista...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I would take "mommy instinct" over your perception of reality any day of the week.

 

On Saturday, 30 March 2013 19:19:52 UTC+11, Harry Phillips wrote:

The only evidence I have ever seen that supports the vaccine / autism link is "mommy instinct", anecdotes, a court case or two that awarded compensation for encephalitis and a discredited study with a total of 12 kids in it.

As far as being evidence worth anything none make it past "What the hell?"

On 30 March 2013 13:14, JC <jc_bi...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

Hi all.

Just was after a recap of why people think vaccinations cause autism.  Can you please supply references for this claim?

Thanks.

John

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Vaccination-Respectful Debate" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vaccination-respectful-debate+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to vaccination-re...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vaccination-respectful-debate?hl=en-GB.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--

Regards,

Harry Phillips

--

Regards,

Harry Phillips

[Katie Brockie]

Punter,
here's one article with stats showing as the number of diagnoses of autism rised, the number of daiagnoses of mental retardation falls. (This is in the US).
http://archive.is/lL6F

Also - this quote explains it well (from an interview with Dr. Eric Fombonne):

So for instance we have several data showing that children who were previously diagnosed with mental retardation are now, or would be now diagnosed with an autism spectrum diagnosis. There are very good data published in the U.S. -- looking at the 50 states and the special educational data sets from the U.S. -- which show that there has been, over time, as autism numbers were increasing ... a decrease in the number of children diagnosed with mental retardation.

More recent studies which have looked at individual trajectories in California have documented that in fact if you follow children during that period of the 1990s, they were initially entering the system of public service with a diagnosis of mental retardation, and would, as time elapsed, would earn a diagnosis of autism at a time where the policy changed about what it meant to have an autism diagnosis, and it was actually an opening door for more services.

So this recent study in California indicates that probably 25 percent of the increase in this California state of public services might be due to this shift from an initial diagnosis of mental retardation to an autistic disorder diagnosis. So that's a significant proportion of the increase, which is explained by the substitution. And it's very legitimate to postulate that there has been other pathways for diagnostic substitution.

We actually know from British studies that some children who were in the past diagnosed with language disorders would now be -- when they are reviewed with more modern tools -- they would be falling into the spectrum and would be most certainly diagnosed with an autism spectrum condition.

A study in the UK showed that very well-characterized children and adolescents with language disorders, when they are reviewed 10 years later with tools and diagnostic assessments which are looking at autism in these children, actually would identify autism in 66 percent of them. Two-thirds of them would be now considered as meeting criteria for the condition. So that's another pathway from a previous diagnosis to this diagnosis of autism.

And by clinical experience, we can certainly say that some of the children who were previously diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder, schizotypal personality disorders, and other kinds of unusual psychiatric disorders might now be regarded as having autism.

So most certainly, this diagnostic substitution hypothesis has applied from a range of other conditions, and is one of the pathway through which now we have an increased number of children diagnosed with ASD."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/vaccines/rise/fombonne.html

[Katie Brockie]

Bek,

the polio virus was identified early in the 20th century. Where do you get the information about the lack of biological testing? Can you please point me to this info?

And if you want to compare rates of polio pre- and post- vaccination,  please read about one of the most important (and biggest) randomised control trials ever done.
"The “biggest public health experiment
ever” had enrolled 1,022,684 school children in 44 states. 1 300,000 schoolteachers,
“classroom mothers” and “clubwomen,” nurses, physical therapists, doctors, and
public health officials had volunteered to organize the immunizations and track polio
cases (Meier, 1975; Francis, 1957: xxix, 50-51)."

and:
"The final design of the field trial incorporated two distinct studies, differently designed and separately analyzed. In eleven states, 455,474 first, second and third-graders were randomized by blocks of ten within each classroom to receive either a series of three vaccine or three placebo injections.6 New York State alone provided nearly half (226,381) of the children enrolled in the randomized study; Alabama, California, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Ohio, Utah and Washington contributed the remainder (Francis, 1957: 2, 354-355). As Thomas Francis emphasized, “the nature of the material administered was concealed in a code,” so that “all observations and records regarding these children would thus be made on an objective basis: bias between vaccinated and controls was thereby eliminated” (Francis, 1957: 32). An additional 567,210 children from thirty-three states participated in a study with observational controls: 221,998 second-graders received the three successive vaccine doses; children from the first and third grades in these areas served as controls (Francis, 1957: 3, 356-359)."

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/histmed/images/salk.pdf

Read about this, and tell me what you think.

Thanks

K

[Katie Brockie]

punter - again, you have some weird idea that blood tests were not used. Where do you get your info? I know you think you have explained this to me - but you really haven't. Give me some straight forward evidence about, say HiB disease and the vaccine and testing requirements.

I have answered your other question below.

K

[Harry Phillips]

"JC I don't have references. However, I believe that you can't just generalize that autism is or isn't caused by vaccination."

Yes we can, it has been studied to death across 100's of thousands of children covering multiple countries and there is NO evidence of a link between vaccines and autism. If you have more than an anecdote then show us.

"Neither can you say it is or isn't genetic."

There is research that is pointing that way

"Before anyone (and I mean ANYONE - both sides of the debate) is ready to stipulate that they are correct in their beliefs, they should live with an autistic person for a while. That experience would be the only credentials that would be needed."

That is not evidence of a connection between autism and vaccines.

"Was there a chemical in the vaccine that broke the connections?"

No.

"I don't know but neither does anyone else at this point JC."

Just because you don't believe the mountains of evidence that there is no link between vaccines and autism does not mean there is a link.

"I do wonder how there can be studies denying the link to vaccines when courts have awarded large sums to people and found in favor of the claim that it was caused by vaccination. How can you explain that JC? Are the vaccination injury courts wrong?"

If you mean compensation for autism, and it is the Italian case of the people being compensated for the known and acknowledged reaction of encephalitis and they used the fraudulent faked withdrawn crappy study of 12 children by Wakefield to base their decision on, yes they are wrong, very wrong. These same Italian courts convicted scientists for not predicting earth quakes, not the best source of your evidence:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203630604578072781357127300.html

I have not heard of any other case, care to point it out?

On 4 April 2013 16:18, QldKiwi <christine...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know what happened to my comment.  It has gone right across the page as far as it can go.  Can you do something about it moderator?

On Sunday, 31 March 2013 13:09:10 UTC+10, QldKiwi wrote:

JC I don't have references. However, I believe that you can't just generalize that autism is or isn't caused by vaccination. Neither can you say it is or isn't genetic. Before anyone (and I mean ANYONE - both sides of the debate) is ready to stipulate that they are correct in their beliefs, they should live with an autistic person for a while. That experience would be the only credentials that would be needed.
When living with an autistic person you will develop a kind of radar and notice people with the traits of autism much more readily, and realize just how many people are living with an ASD victim.  It is a handicap, just like blindness, deafness or someone crippled. You can't ask a blind person to see, a deaf person to hear or a cripple to walk, although the person with the handicap could look quite normal.  Neither can you ask an autistic person to communicate. You can look at the eyes of an autistic person and know that whatever you are saying is just not being absorbed or understood. You would have more sense banging your head against a brick wall. What can anyone do to break down that barrier that they have, and what causes it? It is like trying to phone someone but the connection is broken. What will it take to reconnect?  I believe that there is a chemical missing in the brain.  Did it happen when the child was developing in the womb? Was there a weakness in the genetic makeup from the parent? Was there a chemical in the vaccine that broke the connections? I don't know but neither does anyone else at this point JC.  I do wonder how there can be studies denying the link to vaccines when courts have awarded large sums to people and found in favor of the claim that it was caused by vaccination. How can you explain that JC? Are the vaccination injury courts wrong?

On Saturday, 30 March 2013 13:14:24 UTC+10, JC wrote:

Hi all.

Just was after a recap of why people think vaccinations cause autism.  Can you please supply references for this claim?

Thanks.

John

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Vaccination-Respectful Debate" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vaccination-respectf...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to vaccination-re...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vaccination-respectful-debate?hl=en-GB.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--

Regards,

Harry Phillips

[Tasha David]

Katie,

An interesting article with studies that show that Autism has increased significantly and it is not explained away with better diagnosis and decreasing Mental Retardation rates…

 

“Shattuck's research, for instance, points to the declining prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities from 1994 to 2003, at a time when autism diagnoses were rising, as evidence of diagnostic substitution.

 

“Interestingly, though, in 1982, there were 1.7 million learning disabled, 1.1 million speech impaired, 780,000 mentally retarded and 353,000 emotionally disturbed. According to figures released by the U.S. Department of Education in 1991, the growth of the number of children in the learning disabled category had jumped 9 percent between 1982 and 1985, and by 32 percent since 1985, to about 2.44 million.

 

In 1998, four years after the new DSM-IV and the spike in autism diagnoses, the learning disability category was still growing significantly, reaching 2.7 million. By 2003, the learning disabled category stood at 2,866,908.

 

That suggests little diagnostic substitution, at least from the learning disabled category, and a factual finding at odds with Shattuck's statistics on learning disabilities.

 

There was a significant decline among the mentally retarded - from 780,000 in 1982 to 602,000 in 1998, as Shattuck observed in his findings, but that number stabilized and declined only insignificantly between 1998 and 2003, to 582,663, while autism diagnoses were still growing at an astonishing rate. While Shattuck bases his substitution theory on declining retardation diagnoses between 1994 and 2003, a fair reading shows most of the decline occurred by 1998, with almost no decline for the five years preceding 2003.

 

Thus, diagnostic substitution of autism for mental retardation would not seem to have been possible between 1998 and 2003.”

 

“Finally, a 2009 University of California study contends the rise in autism diagnoses cannot be attributed to diagnostic substitution, and that a real epidemic is underway.

 

“UC-Davis researchers found that the seven- to eight-fold increase in the number of children born in California with autism since 1990 could not be explained by either changes in how the condition is diagnosed or counted - and the trend shows no sign of abating, the university stated in announcing the study.”

 

“According to the study, the incidence of autism by age six in California increased from fewer than nine in 10,000 for children born in 1990 to more than 44 in 10,000 for children born in 2000.”

 

“The two correlated the number of autism cases reported between 1990 and 2006 with birth records and excluded children not born in California. They used Census Bureau data to calculate the rate of incidence in the population over time and examined the age at diagnosis of all children ages two to 10 years old.

 

The methodology eliminated migration as a potential cause of the increase in the number of cases, the researchers stated, and it further revealed that no more than 56 percent of the estimated 600-to-700 percent increase - less than one-tenth of the increased number of reported cases - could be attributed to the inclusion of milder cases of autism, while only 24 percent of the increase could be attributed to earlier age at diagnosis.”

 

http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=9&ArticleID=11273

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/10/021018081039.htm

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090108095429.htm

 

And we still have children who should be diagnosed with ASD not getting diagnosed, so true rates of Autism are still not being realised.

 

Children With Autistic Traits Remain Undiagnosed

“A study published in a recent issue of the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry found that a large number of undiagnosed children displayed autistic traits: repetitive behaviors, impairments in social interaction, and difficulties with communication. These traits were at levels comparable to the traits displayed by children who held a clinical diagnosis (all diagnosed between years one and twelve). However, the undiagnosed children were not deemed eligible for extra support at school or by specialized health services.”

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100322131423.htm

 

CDC survey: 1 in 50 U.S. schoolkids have autism

 

http://triblive.com/usworld/nation/3693637-74/autism-parents-survey#ixzz2O2penYlG

 

And with these kinds of figures can we really still be debating whether there is really an epidemic of Autism?  Just how high does it have to get for us to admit that we have a real problem here?

[Tasha David]

John,

I believe that vaccines can cause more than just Autism, and this belief has been backed up (anecdotally) by my 6 vaccinated children having neurological disorders and autoimmune disorders, while my unvaccinated children do not .  There are genetically susceptible children that have adverse reactions to vaccines resulting in Autism, unfortunately these children have not been studied yet, so we do not know how many children are susceptible or even what causes them to be susceptible in the first place?  Some theories have been put forward such as Mitochondrial disorders being aggravated by vaccines, inefficient detoxification of heavy metals, adjuvants etc and here are some of the references.

Abnormal measles-mumps-rubella antibodies and CNS autoimmunity in children with autism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145534

Theoretical aspects of autism: Causes—A review

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/1547691X.2010.545086

Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2536523/

Mitochondrial Disease in Autism Spectrum Disorder Patients: A Cohort Analysis

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003815

HEPATITIS B VACCINATION OF MALE NEONATES AND AUTISM DIAGNOSIS, NHIS 1997–2002

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/15287394.2010.519317

Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0162013411002212

Empirical Data Confirm Autism Symptoms Related to Aluminum and Acetaminophen Exposure

http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2227

Persistent behavioral impairments and alterations of brain dopamine system after early postnatal administration of thimerosal in rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21549155

Sorting out the spinning of autism: heavy metals and the question of incidence

http://www.ane.pl/pdf/7021.pdf

A possible central mechanism in autism spectrum disorders, part 1.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19043938

Hypothesis: Conjugate vaccines may predispose children to autism spectrum disorders

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987711004117

Fever Plus Mitochondrial Disease Could Be Risk Factors for Autistic Regression

http://blog.autismspeaks.org/2010/03/11/fever-regression/

On 30 March 2013 14:14, JC <jc_bi...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

Hi all.

Just was after a recap of why people think vaccinations cause autism.  Can you please supply references for this claim?

Thanks.

John

--

[Katie Brockie]

Tasha - I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I am not denying that the level of autism in the population seems to be rising.

I was pointing out how a change in diagnosis - because there are no biological tests for it - meant a change in numbers. Interestingly, when the sames tests are applied to the general older population, it's been found that there are quite a few adults who would have been diagnosed on the spectrum, but were not (because the diagnosis was different when they were children).

cheers

K

[Tasha David]

Sorry Katie, I did think you were saying that there was no real rise in the cases of Autism.  I am sure there are some undiagnosed Autistic adults already out there but not anywhere near the number of diagnosed adults that are coming, as our Autistic children become adults, I really don't think society is ready for that.

Cheers

Tasha

[John Cunningham]

Tasha,

I agree that your family is interesting, and that they may have a genetic biochemical abnormality.  Six children in one family strongly suggests genetic factors at play.

John

[Katie Brockie]

Punter,

I think you have a very incorrect idea about autism. There are many high-functioning autistic people all around the world. Most people "on the spectrum" are integrated into schools, jobs, etc.

Autism is not a death sentence, or even a life-sentence. Personally I know at least 2 people with aspergers, and they are awesome.

There are autistic rights groups, run by autistic people. You might be interested to read some of their literature.

here's one:
http://autisticadvocacy.org/

K

[Tasha David]

John,

Genetic definitely but also environmental factors as well or my younger unvaccinated children would have been more likely to be affected .  We already did some genetic testing on some of my older children but there was no Fragile X or Retts Syndrome, nothing to explain the disorders in my children. I have to wonder how many other families like mine are out there, but because they don't have as many children it's not as obvious?

Cheers

Tasha

[Katie Brockie]

If there was a link between vaccinations and autism, then one would think that more vaccinated than unvaccinated children would have ASD. But many robust studies have found this is not the case. The rate of ASD is the same in vaxxed and unvaxxed populations.

Eg: here's a review of the MMR vax studies:
http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=481371

Katie

[John Cunningham]

Maybe there are.

John

[Tasha David]

"If there was a link between vaccinations and autism, then one would think that more vaccinated than unvaccinated children would have ASD"

Yes, you would think that there would be but unfortunately there are no studies of long term health outcomes or even Autism rates in fully vaccinated vs fully unvaccinated to show us.  So to say that the rate of ASD is the same in vaxxed and unvaxxed populations is just not accurate.

Your review only looks at MMR and Autism and even then is unable to identify genetically susceptible subsets, so it really is not capable of proving one way of the other whether vaccines are linked to Autism in some children.

[Katie Brockie]

Punter

All of the diseases you mentioned can be prevented by vaccination.
I am sure that if you talked to people who have been crippled by polio, or who were born deaf because their mother caught rubella while pregnant, or who have life time scars from chickenpox or measles, or who have liver cancer from contracting Hep B when young, or have chronic gut problems because of rotovirus - they would all far rather not have had the disease.
Autism is not a condition which can be avoided by vaccinating.

It has nothing to do with vaccinations, as has been proven time and again, and I felt you were characterising all people with autism as screaming, violent poo-slingers, which is far from the case.

In fact, I find the whole tenor of your post somewhat lacking in empathy or compassion.

K

[Katie Brockie]

Bek,

Luckily, because of immunisation, polio is becoming less and less common. But think about this. What would happen if polio enters a community of say, 3000 unvaccinated people.

Polio is very contagious, ("In endemic areas, wild polioviruses can infect virtually the entire human population" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis#cite_ref-McGraw_18-1.) so, of the 3000 people, let's say 2,800 become infected with the polio virus.

Now, for 97% of those people, it'll be fine. Some will feel sick for a few days, others won't even notice.

But  3% of those 2,800 people - that's 84 people, will  contract paralytic polio. Some will die, others will be paralysed and crippled for life. I think that if those 84 people can be protected from polio, that is a good thing. That is why we have the vaccination. 

You can't develop an immunity against polio without actually catching the disease - with a 3 in 100 chance of being killed or paralysed; or having the vaccination, which is very effective.

K

[Tasha David]

"Autism is not a condition which can be avoided by vaccinating.  It has nothing to do with vaccinations, as has been proven time and again"

Katie, how can you say this when it is has not been proven at all? They have only looked at the MMR and Thimerosal and even then, they have not done studies that can identify genetically susceptible children, how does this exonerate all vaccines?

[Harry Phillips]

On 12 April 2013 08:14, punter <trista...@hotmail.com> wrote:

"All of the diseases you mentioned can be prevented by vaccination."

 

If you say so.

No, it is not Katie saying so, she is just telling you what the mountains and mountains of evidence says. It is not her opinion, it is the evidence that backs up what she says.

Do you have any decent evidence of your claims? I am yet to see you present some.

 

"Autism is not a condition which can be avoided by vaccinating."

 

But I think vaccination often results in it don't I? Why do you argue as though I believe in all of your assumptions? 

 

Yes you do think that ...... but like many things you THINK are true there is no proof of it being so, none, zip, zilch, nada... well you might THINK you have some evidence but you don't.

 

[Katie Brockie]

Tasha -

the MMR vaccination is/was the one vaccination which some people claimed caused autism; also thimerosal-containing vaccines were blamed. Many many large and robust studies have shown no link whatsoever between the MMR vaccine and thimerosal and autism.

That one has been put to bed. Are there claims that other vaccinations cause autism? If so, which ones and why?? How would the mechanism work?

And when you say "genetically susceptible children" - do you mean susceptible to autism (ie: they already have an ASD sibling), or susceptible to vaccines? I know there are certain medical conditions which rule out vaccinations for some people, but apart from that, I'm not sure there is such a thing? (Correct me if I'm wrong).

Katie

[Tasha David]

"But I think vaccination often results in it don't I? Why do you argue as though I believe in all of your assumptions?

Yes you do think that ...... but like many things you THINK are true there is no proof of it being so, none, zip, zilch, nada... well you might THINK you have some evidence but you don't."

There most certainly is proof of vaccines "resulting" in Autism, what we don't know is how many more are like Hannah?

"In acknowledging Hannah's injuries, the government said vaccines aggravated an unknown mitochondrial disorder Hannah had which didn't "cause" her autism, but "resulted" in it. It's unknown how many other children have similar undiagnosed mitochondrial disorder."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20015982-10391695.html

--

[Katie Brockie]

Tasha -
From the ruling:
"In sum, DVIC has concluded that the facts of this case meet the statutory criteria for demonstrating that the vaccinations CHILD received on July 19, 2000, significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism, and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder. Therefore, respondent recommends that compensation be awarded to petitioners in accordance with 42 U.S.C. § 300aa-11(c)(1)(C)(ii)."

And commentary from an expert: "Mitochondrial disorders of the sort suffered by Hannah are genetic in nature and rare, an estimated 5.7 individuals per 100,000 worldwide, and, as described well in this New Scientist article, the subset of these disorders that cause autism-like symptoms is even more rare. It is also known that children with mitochondrial disorders are prone to encephalopathy in response to stress or fever that can cause them to regress. The source of this stress can often be an infection, such as a cold or normal childhood illness, that results in a fever. The reason is that the mitochondria are the “batteries” or energy sources of the cell, and mitochondrial diseases can lead a child to be “energy challenged,” so to speak. Because neurons have such a high constant resting energy requirement, stressors like fever deplete the neurons of energy. Moroever, mutations in the same gene that Hannah had a mutation in are incredibly rare. According to Salvatore DiMauro, an researcher who studies mitochondrial diseases, only four other cases are known. It is also important to see what is really meant about this diagnosis. Kevin Leitch, a prominent autism blogger, compared the actual DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for ASDs with what is known about Hannah and found that only three of the behaviors described in the ruling appeared to match up with criteria for ASDs (poor eye contact, poor relatedness, and fixating on fluorescent lights during the examination)"
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/on-the-rebranding-of-autism-as-a-mitochondrial-disorder-by-antivaccinationists/

This is the only case people can put forward when trying to prove that vaccinations cause autism. That is because they just don't.

cheers
K

[Tasha David]

"This is the only case people can put forward when trying to prove that vaccinations cause autism. That is because they just don't."

No Katie, this is not the only case, there are others but then it becomes a semantics game of encephalopathy rather than Autism even though the children are Autistic.  It is a shame that our scientific and medical community are so determined to prove that vaccines don't cause Autism that they are willing to close their eyes and minds to evidence to the contrary.

Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism

"Within 48 hours after immunizations to diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis; Haemophilus influenzae B; measles, mumps, and rubella; polio; and varicella (Varivax), the patient developed a fever to 38.9°C, inconsolable crying, irritability, and lethargy and refused to walk. Four days later, the patient was waking up multiple times in the night, having episodes of opistho-tonus, and could no longer normally climb stairs. Instead, she crawled up and down the stairs. Low-grade intermittent fever was noted for the next 12 days. Ten days following immunization, the patient developed a generalized erythematous macular rash beginning in the abdomen. The patient’s pediatrician diagnosed this as due to varicella vaccination. For 3 months, the patient was irritable and increasingly less responsive verbally, after which the patient’s family noted clear autistic behaviors, such as spinning, gaze avoidance, disrupted sleep/wake cycle, and perseveration on specific television programs. All expressive language was lost by 22 months. The patient continued to have chronic yellow watery diarrhea intermittently for 6 months, which was evaluated with negative testing for Clostridium difficile, ova/parasites, and culture. Four months later, an evaluation with the Infant and Toddlers Early Intervention program for possible autism was initiated. Along with the regression, her appetite remained poor for 6 months and her body weight did not increase. This resulted in a decline on a standard growth chart for weight from the 97th to the 75th percentile.

Evaluation at 23 months showed atopic dermatitis, slow hair growth, generalized mild hypotonia, toe walking, and normal tendon reflexes. The Childhood Autism Rating Scale (CARS) score was 33 (mild autism range), and she also met Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders-IV criteria for autism"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2536523/

"The prevalence of MD in the general population of ASD was 5.0% (95% confidence interval 3.2, 6.9%), much higher than found in the general population (∼0.01%). The prevalence of abnormal biomarker values of mitochondrial dysfunction was high in ASD, much higher than the prevalence of MD. Variances and mean values of many mitochondrial biomarkers (lactate, pyruvate, carnitine and ubiquinone) were significantly different between ASD and controls. Some markers correlated with ASD severity. Neuroimaging, in vitro and post-mortem brain studies were consistent with an elevated prevalence of mitochondrial dysfunction in ASD. Taken together, these findings suggest children with ASD have a spectrum of mitochondrial dysfunction of differing severity."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3285768/

How many individuals are affected?

Every 30 minutes, a child is born who will develop a mitochondrial disease by age 10.  Each year, 1,000 to 4,000 children in the United states are born with a mitochondrial disease.   While exact numbers of children and adults suffering from mitochondrial disease are hard to determine because so many people who suffer from mitochondrial disease are frequently misdiagnosed, we now know the disease is approaching the frequency of childhood cancers.  Many are misdiagnosed with atypical cerebral palsy, various seizure disorders, childhood diseases and diseases of aging.  Still others aren't diagnosed until after death.

http://www.umdf.org/site/c.8qKOJ0MvF7LUG/b.7934639/k.C416/FAQ8217s.htm#6

[Tasha David]

Katie,

The theory on the MMR and even the heavy metals/ vaccine link has not been put to bed at all.  All that was done was the need to protect the good name of vaccination was put before the suffering of Autistic children suffering from Gastrointestinal disorders, resulting in parents having a harder time getting help for their children's chronic GI disorders.  The unfortunate fact is that a significant amount of Autistic children suffer from GI problems my own included, and there is a lot of research to back this up.  A lot of time has been spent on defending the MMR vaccine when it should have been put in to finding out what was happening to the GI tracts of our children.  As for the other vaccines and links to Autism, if you go back to my previous post to John you will see the various studies that I posted that suggest various vaccines and vaccine adjuvants etc can cause Autism.

As for genetically susceptible children, I don't believe that they are susceptible to Autism as Autism is really just a bunch of symptoms used to describe our children it is not an actual medical condition.  When I say genetically susceptible I mean children that are sensitive to vaccines/environmental insults be it the heavy metals, viruses, adjuvants etc.

I found some more studies/articles that point to links with the MMR and Autism as well as heavy metals and Autism.

“RESULTS: Autoimmunity was demonstrated by the presence of brain autoantibodies, abnormal viral serology, brain and viral antibodies in CSF, a positive correlation between brain autoantibodies and viral serology, elevated levels of proinflammatory cytokines and acute-phase reactants, and a positive response to immunotherapy. Many autistic children harbored brain myelin basic protein autoantibodies and elevated levels of antibodies to measles virus and measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine. Measles might be etiologically linked to autism because measles and MMR antibodies (a viral marker) correlated positively to brain autoantibodies (an autoimmune marker)—salient features that characterize autoimmune pathology in autism. Autistic children also showed elevated levels of acute-phase reactants—a marker of systemic inflammation.”

 

https://www.aacp.com/pdf%2F2103%2F2103ACP_Research1.pdf

Elevated levels of measles antibodies in children with autism.

Abstract

 

Virus-induced autoimmunity may play a causal role in autism. To examine the etiologic link of viruses in this brain disorder, we conducted a serologic study of measles virus, mumps virus, and rubella virus. Viral antibodies were measured by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay in the serum of autistic children, normal children, and siblings of autistic children. The level of measles antibody, but not mumps or rubella antibodies, was significantly higher in autistic children as compared with normal children (P = 0.003) or siblings of autistic children (P <or= 0.0001). Furthermore, immunoblotting of measles vaccine virus revealed that the antibody was directed against a protein of approximately 74 kd molecular weight. The antibody to this antigen was found in 83% of autistic children but not in normal children or siblings of autistic children. Thus autistic children have a hyperimmune response to measles virus, which in the absence of a wild type of measles infection might be a sign of an abnormal immune reaction to the vaccine strain or virus reactivation.”

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12849883

 

PHOENIX, Feb. 28 (UPI) -- Children with autism had higher levels of several heavy metals in their blood and urine compared to typical children, U.S. researchers reported.

 

Study leader James Adams, who directs the Arizona State University Autism/Asperger's Research Program, said the study involved 55 children with autism ages 5-16 compared to 44 controls of similar age and gender.

 

The study, published in the journal Biological Trace Element Research, found the autism group had significantly higher levels -- 41 percent -- of lead in their red blood cells and 74 percent higher urinary levels of lead, 77 percent higher levels of thallium, 115 percent higher levels of tin and 44 percent higher levels of tungsten.

 

Lead, thallium, tin and tungsten are toxic metals that can impair brain development and function, and also interfere with the normal functioning of other body organs and systems, Adams said.

 

A statistical analysis was conducted to determine if the levels of toxic metals were associated with autism severity, using three different scales of autism severity.

 

The study found 38 percent to 47 percent of the variation of autism severity was associated with the level of several toxic metals, with cadmium and mercury being the most strongly associated.

 

"We hypothesize that reducing early exposure to toxic metals may help ameliorate symptoms of autism, and treatment to remove toxic metals may reduce symptoms of autism; these hypotheses need further exploration, as there is a growing body of research to support it," Adams said in a statement.

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2013/02/28/Toxic-metal-levels-linked-to-autism/UPI-62561362072302/

[Jason Townsend]

First of all, if you want to assert that vaccination causes autism or any other disease, the onus lies on you to prove that it does. You say that you don't believe the temporal correlation between autism symptoms and vaccination is coincidental. However, you offer nothing to support that, other than coincidence evidence. There are a myriad of other possible explanations for that temporal correlation, including but not limited to that the parents/observers can only recognise and interpret the baby's behaviour when it's about old enough to be vaccinated. The symptoms themselves might only manifest once the child is of an age that it can, albeit primitively, socialise and ought to. You offer nothing to suggest that your proposition is any more likely than just those two. You mentioned court cases......cite them.

JT

On Sunday, March 31, 2013 11:19:39 AM UTC+11, Bek wrote:

JC,

I personally believe vaccines can cause autism. I do not believe that there are any real studies to show that the countless neurotoxins in vaccines are completely harmless. I do not believe that it is just coincidental that some children develop ASD symptoms immediately after vaccination. I do not believe that the increase in autism is just from better diagnostic criteria.

I also do not believe the Federal vaccine injury compensation program (and court cases from around the world) would award millions of dollars to children who developed autism after vaccination if there was no link.

Here is just one reference:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22099159

JC, what do you think the rise in autism is related to?

Bek

[Jason Townsend]

Bring it on

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 11:00:42 AM UTC+11, punter wrote:

Challenge, dechallenge, rechallenge observed by thousands and thousands of parents.

 

QED

 

The fact that not a single vaccine defender on the planet has the courage of their convictions to take the entire infant vaccine schedule adjusted for their body weight.

 

Double QED

[punter]

You want to take the entire infant vaccine schedule adjusted for your weight? Excellent! Now go and do it. Just get some non-biased person to verify you a) are taking actual vaccines; and b) are getting the doses and we are set.

[freudulant]

What you derisively term 'Mommy Instinct' is also known as observation, one of the cornerstones of the scientific method. Anecdotal observation serves as the first line of evidence to base hypotheses that are tested under rigorous scientific conditions. The problem with the vaccine debate is that counter to the process of medical discovery in the past, instead of being considered rationale for further investigation, the countless observations made by parents and physicians with inquiring scientific minds are being discounted. I find it interesting that you are so quick to write off parents observations, it makes me wonder whether you would trust your own observations about the state of your body or a loved ones body or if you would be appeased by doctors saying that it was nothing, a coincidence, particularly when the time line of symptoms was post medical intervention and therefore the doctors might have a self interest in explaining the problem away? It is true that one swallow does not make a summer, but once it's thousands, tens of thousands or millions of swallows, at what point does "it's just a coincidence" become too hard to swallow?

On Saturday, March 30, 2013 7:19:52 PM UTC+11, Harry Phillips wrote:

The only evidence I have ever seen that supports the vaccine / autism link is "mommy instinct", anecdotes, a court case or two that awarded compensation for encephalitis and a discredited study with a total of 12 kids in it.

As far as being evidence worth anything none make it past "What the hell?"

On 30 March 2013 13:14, JC <jc_bi...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

Hi all.

Just was after a recap of why people think vaccinations cause autism.  Can you please supply references for this claim?

Thanks.

John

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Vaccination-Respectful Debate" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vaccination-respectful-debate+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to vaccination-re...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vaccination-respectful-debate?hl=en-GB.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--

Regards,

Harry Phillips