Danger of Medical Intervention vs. non-vaccination

[A MacDonald]

Regarding immunisation, and with statistics such as;

Adverse effects drugs 151,057

Misadventure during surgical and medical care 22,003

Procedures causing abnormal reactions/complications 285,842

Infection following a procedure 35,353

Complications of internal prosthetic devices 110,821

 ….  reported out of Australia, for a year.  then these, added to adverse reactions to vaccines, which are both grossly under-reported, this creates a situation where the fear of an unvaccinated child is preposterous.

Those who have a faith in Herd Immunity, probably believe that the 600,000 reported above, must pale into comparison with the risk that an unvaccinated child may pose.

So, I debate that it is ludicrous idea that an unvaccinated 1 year-old poses a greater risk than a doctor does.

(How does a healthy child cause death?)  I have been blamed for asking the same of others, and yet I am still scratching my head.

I further debate that pro-vaccine efforts would be better spent in combatting the above reported injuries and ask as to what effort has been made to reduce the above death and injury-causing figures. To me, they look worse than a third-world nation (they are from Australia), and  if one does include the vaccine-damage done in those countries, one could also be looking at genocide.

Should not natural healthcare be considered before so many reactions to modern medicine is caused? It seems to me that the topic of vaccination is surrounded by much faith.  The statistics provided from Wales in recent days, has proven to be false, but which media and many in Australia have fallen for.

I am sure there are Australian doctors on this AVN-respectful-debate site who will be alarmed when they read the above statistics.
Perhaps they may wish to debate on this thread.
Should they wish to know the origin of the statistics, they can ask the AVN (I have when I could not find info elsewhere)

Andrew.

 

[Katie Brockie]

pj

many of your questions are answered in this booklet. It is not funded by "big pharma", and it was compiled and written by 11 Professors (including 2 Nobel laureates and 1 PhD). It is fully referenced so you can look up the studies involved.
http://www.science.org.au/policy/documents/AAS_Immunisation_FINAL_LR_v3.pdf

once you've read it, please come back with anything you don't understand or agree with, and we can discuss it without emotion - just the science.

Cheers

Katie

[Katie Brockie]

Good old punter. Apparently, all of us who choose to vaccinate are hypocrites and cowards.

Plus, apparently, many of us have children with minor or serious problems due to vaccination!!!

Not to mention, we are egotistical and precious.

Great contribution to the discussion, punter. I think you forgot to add something though:

1) Prefacing many of your statements with "In my opinion....." would be more polite and more accurate.

2) You have obviously just forgotten to include your references to studies which show that a) herd immunity is nonsense; b) vaccinated children are more ill than unvaccinated ones. The rest is all your opinion.

You are not a threat to anyone.

cheers
K

[Katie Brockie]

"I can only give my observations and that line is consistent with them. If you have a different set of observations then why would you be interested in this debate? Like I said - we make you uncomfortable because your observations are consistent with ours. If vaccinated children had perfect health then none of you guys would care that there were a bunch of people out there with alternative opinions. It would be like a rich person worrying about those who live an ascetic existence"

My observations are that every single one of my 18 nieces and nephews are all fully immunised, and are all very healthy. None of them has any chronic illnesses, and none of them has ever been hospatilised except for accidents.

My observation is that there was a measles outbreak at my son's High School when he was in his last year there. The only kids who caught measles were the ones whose parents had chosen not to vaccinate them. One of them was very pissed off about this, and is going to get all his immunisations.

My observation is that children who are recovering from cancer, also adults with suppressed immune systems, and babies too young to be vaccinated need to be protected from illness, and it is largely unvaccinated people who bring new epidemics into the country.

But obviously, your observations are consistent with mine - so I make you feel defensive.

You are not a threat to anyone because your arguments are not based on science, biology, or in fact, any kind of medical reality, and you do not represent the AVN.

The AVN is a threat because it spreads dangerous misinformation - we could go over this ground again, but I think there's been enough in the media recently pointing this out.

cheers

K

[punter]

"My observations are that every single one of my 18 nieces and nephews are all fully immunised, and are all very healthy."

 

That's great Katie.

 

"My observation is that children who are recovering from cancer, also adults with suppressed immune systems, and babies too young to be vaccinated need to be protected from illness, and it is largely unvaccinated people who bring new epidemics into the country."

And you were doing so well too Katie. Unfortunately you see, you couldn't possibly have observed any of these things Katie because no mere mortal could have such omniscience. Now, some people might take your willingness to confuse such wild conjecture with actual observations to cast doubt on the other observations you claim to have made but I wouldn't do that Katie - I know from your previous postings that this was all just an honest mistake.

[Pie eyed]

Could you link to the source of your statistics used here please Andrew?

[Kevin G]

There is no mention of over what time interval these reported  complications occurred .  One day?? One year??  Ten years. And raw data in the absence of percentage of procedures performed is equally meaningless.

In Australia, there were 620 000 elective surgeries performed in 2010. That doesnt take into account emergency surgery.

300 000 live births, 75 000 abortions . That is up to 1 million procedures already, even without considering emergency procedures in hospital and office procedures by GPs.

 

 

 

On Monday, May 13, 2013 12:35:23 AM UTC+10, Andrew MacDonald wrote:

[Katie Brockie]

Punter said: "And you were doing so well too Katie. Unfortunately you see, you couldn't possibly have observed any of these things Katie because no mere mortal could have such omniscience."
Really punter? I had a partner who died from leukemia. I often visited him in his ward when he was immunosupressed. I had to wear a mask etc because he was so susceptible to any illnesses, especially anythiong like measles, chickenpox, whooping cough, etc. There were others in the ward who were equally vulnerable.
I observed a friend who got whooping cough when she was pregnant, and so gave birth to a baby with limb deformities, caused by her constant coughing.
I have not observed, but have talked to people whose babies died from whooping cough, before they were old enough to be immunised.
I have read studies (not observed, you've got me there), about epidemics, and there have been several in recent years sparked by an unimmunised individual returning from overseas.

 "Now, some people might take your willingness to confuse such wild conjecture with actual observations to cast doubt on the other observations you claim to have made but I wouldn't do that Katie - I know from your previous postings that this was all just an honest mistake."

Now, some people might take your attempts to dismiss what I say as rude or insulting; but I know it's just your way, and you don't mean it to come across as such.
cheers

K

[punter]

"Now, some people might take your attempts to dismiss what I say as rude or insulting; but I know it's just your way, and you don't mean it to come across as such."

That's actually not a bad attempt at wit there Katie. I give it a 6 out of 10 (a bit generous I know but I feel like you guys need a lot of encouragement).

"I had to wear a mask etc because he was so susceptible to any illnesses,"

How is that an observation? That is merely a logical consequence of a premise that I remain unconvinced of.

"I observed a friend who got whooping cough when she was pregnant, and so gave birth to a baby with limb deformities, caused by her constant coughing."

Really? You observed the child in utero become more deformed after each and every cough?

Like I said, you clearly don't know the difference between observation and conjecture.

[punter]

"There is no mention of over what time interval these reported  complications occurred .  One day?? One year?? "

I assume you mean apart from when Andrew said "reported out of Australia, for a year"?

[Katie Brockie]

The NZ Health Quality and Safety Committee assembles and reviews all serious adverse events in hosptials each year. In 2012
"A total of 360 serious and sentinel events were reported across all DHBs, including 91 deaths, but the deaths are not necessarily as a result of the adverse event which occurred, the HQSC serious and sentinel report 2011/12 says."
http://www.pharmacytoday.co.nz/news/2012/november-2012/21/medication-errors-down-in-dhbs.aspx

You can read the link (to a PDF), which has all the information you need. The majority of adverse effects were from falls.

I'm sure Australia has a similar system of keeping track of data.

You can see that, compared to the thousands of people who go to hospitals each year, the number who suffer serious adverse events, or who die is small, but the Ministry of Health is working hard to try and lower the numbers.

Katie