Daily Bulletin, Tuesday, July 29
Mario Bellabarba
In article <EE2zo...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca>,
cred...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Redmond) wrote:
>
> [UW shield]
>
> Daily Bulletin
> Tuesday, July 29, 1997
>
>OSAP squeezes co-op students
[...stuff about students being expected to live at home on work
terms...]
>
> Under the new OSAP regulations, part-time students -- those taking
> less than a 60 per cent course load, at UW less than 1.5 credits
per
> term -- are no longer eligible for OSAP at all. While they may
apply
> for student aid through the Part-Time Canada Student Loan Program
and
> the Special Opportunity Grant for High Need Part-Time Students,
the
> loans will cover direct educational costs only, including tuition,
> compulsory fees, a book allowance and small miscellaneous
allowance.
> Rent, food, clothing and other living expenses are not covered.
>
Don't forget about the extra added bonus: If you make over $600/year
at a part-time job and/or through scholarships, you get 80% of every
dollar taken off your next OSAP assessment.
Look soon for OSAP's new motto: "You tried to make it on your own and
you failed...the moral is, don't try"
-Mario
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mario Bellabarba | President, U of Waterloo Federation of Students,
mbel...@feds.uwaterloo.ca | Tel: (519) 888-4567 x2478
If nobody uses it, there's a reason.
Paul Prescod
In article <EE4w4...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
Ray Butterworth <rbutte...@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>Note that I'm not saying that things aren't more difficult now,
>(certainly finding a job is a lot harder), I'm just wondering
>just how much difference there really is.
I think that it depends a lot on your area of study.
Paul Prescod
Ray Butterworth
On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:21:24 GMT,
MBEL...@FEDS.uwaterloo.ca (Mario Bellabarba) wrote:
>Look soon for OSAP's new motto: "You tried to make it on your own and
>you failed...the moral is, don't try"
How different are things now than they were 25 years ago ?
I went through co-op without a student loan and ended up
with money in the bank (albeit not very much) when I graduated.
I did live with my parents for the first two school terms,
and had a small assistantship for those two terms,
but other than that I was self-sufficient.
Tuition was $400 to $500 per term,
Pay was $100/week for my first work term and $186 for my last.
All work terms were downtown Toronto.
Doug Payne [IST]
In article <EE4w4...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
Ray Butterworth <rbutte...@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
Well, I've noticed that students now seem to have proper footgear in the
winter, whereas, as we all know, we went barefoot. Or was that 30 years
ago? Memories fade.
Michael Nidd
Chris Palmer:
>Ray Butterworth:
>>Mario Bellabarba:
>>>Look soon for OSAP's new motto: "You tried to make it on your own and
>>>you failed...the moral is, don't try"
>>
>>
>>with money in the bank (albeit not very much) when I graduated.
>
>
[...]
>
>No matter, we can still compare these salaries to McDonalds. That is,
>about $3-6,000 more per year for working at McDonalds. Now that I've
>figured all of this out, I wonder why anyone goes to university at all...
>
>So, in my long winded way, I'd say that finances are significantly
>different for students these days.
Ok, things are bad. How does this demonstrate that they are
"significantly different?" My typical view of a student in 1972 does
not involve jacuzzis and four-star restaurants.
Previous posters have quoted co-op earnings of $100 per week, and
tuition fees of $500 per term. Using the 16/20-week values, this leads
to an annual average income of $1199 or $1713 per year.
Hopefully, $100 wasn't the average pay over all 6 terms. Perhaps someone
would like to offer different numbers? (And a McDonalds line for 1972.)
-- Mike. (who managed to almost break even on a co-op undergrad in '93)
Phil Caskanette
Chris Palmer wrote:
>
> In article <EE4w4...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
> Ray Butterworth <rbutte...@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> >>you failed...the moral is, don't try"
> >
> >How different are things now than they were 25 years ago ?
> >
> >I went through co-op without a student loan and ended up
> >with money in the bank (albeit not very much) when I graduated.
>
> Alright. You did ask for this...
> Now, I can't seem to find a good number for the poverty line. All I
> could find was a rather biased $16,874 (for an individual in a large
> city, like I guess toronto) [http://www.napo-onap.ca/nf-figur.htm].
> I also can't find statistics about welfare payments to individuals.
> Too bad.
The poverty line has little bearing on the specific expenditures that
students experience. There are cost-cutting and income-supplementation
strategies that students can use that full-time workers can't.
> No matter, we can still compare these salaries to McDonalds. That is,
> about $3-6,000 more per year for working at McDonalds. Now that I've
> figured all of this out, I wonder why anyone goes to university at all...
>
So you won't have to work full-time at MacDonalds! Compare the $600+
per week final work term earnings to the $260 per week at McD's.
> So, in my long winded way, I'd say that finances are significantly
> different for students these days.
No, all you've done is compare a current situation to another current
situation. Ray wanted a comparison of the current situation to the
situation when he was in school.
I'd be very interested in that comparison as well. I didn't fare as
well as Ray because my father lives a two-hour drive from UW (3.5 hours
from work term location), so I couldn't live at home. I had
approximately $12,000 ($22,000+ in 1997 dollars) in loans at the end of
university because I generally didn't qualify for OSAP (you think the
current rules are stupid...). The majority of the loan was paid back
within 5 years. My starting salary after graduation was $12,500 / yr.
or about $240 / wk. That's equivalent to $450 / wk. in 1997 dollars.
Already I can see that based on your benchmark of $600+ per week in
average final work term earnings that students may be better off now
than I was then.
--
=======================================================================
Phil Caskanette | e-mail: cask...@mc1adm.UWaterloo.ca
Senior Auditor | phone: (519) 888-4567 x2774
University of Waterloo | fax: (519) 746-9056
Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3G1 |
=======================================================================
Disclaimer: All expressed opinions are mine, and are not necessarily
the views of my employer.
Chris Palmer
In article <EE72A...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
>>>>you failed...the moral is, don't try"
>>>
>>>How different are things now than they were 25 years ago ?
>>>
>>>I went through co-op without a student loan and ended up
>>>with money in the bank (albeit not very much) when I graduated.
>>
>>Alright. You did ask for this...
>>
>>
>>No matter, we can still compare these salaries to McDonalds. That is,
>>about $3-6,000 more per year for working at McDonalds. Now that I've
>>figured all of this out, I wonder why anyone goes to university at all...
>>
>>different for students these days.
>
>"significantly different?" My typical view of a student in 1972 does
>not involve jacuzzis and four-star restaurants.
No, but Ray Butterworth said that he spent 4/6 work-terms living in
Toronto and ended up with money in the bank. I think that my previous
numbers, assuming that I didn't screw anything up, say that this is
significantly different from an average student today. My apologies
for not saying "average" in my conclusions.
I never said that you could not survive on a co-op salary. I suppose
my implicit point was that, on average, a student needs additional
support from some source. Many students get that by living at home.
Many students get that from their parents. Many students get that
from OSAP. Many students learn to live on very little.
Cheers,
Chris.
--
Mail: crpa...@undergrad.uwaterloo.ca
Homepage: http://www.undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca/~crpalmer/
Ray Butterworth
From: crpa...@wheat.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Palmer)
+ No, but Ray Butterworth said that he spent 4/6 work-terms living in
+ Toronto and ended up with money in the bank.
Actually I spent 5 work terms in Toronto,
and one summer holidays in Guelph.
(I switched to co-op math after one year of physics).
I lived with my parents for three terms out of 14.
On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:20:27 GMT,
Phil Caskanette <cask...@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
...
>because I generally didn't qualify for OSAP (you think the
>current rules are stupid...).
I (unsuccessfully) applied once to the Ontario Stereo Aquisition
Program. The application was delayed by several months because
when I sent in the photocopies of my parent's tax returns I had
neglected to submit page 4 of my mother's. When I resubmitted
that page, it was a blank form with absolutely nothing written
on it, something they must have already known (it listed her
"personal exemptions, and the total that was carried onto one
of the other pages was the base value that the form starts out
with for everyone).
>Already I can see that based on your benchmark of $600+ per week in
>average final work term earnings that students may be better off now
>than I was then.
I and many other students of my generation grew up in a one-income
one-car family. We weren't poor, but dining in restaurants (even
at Harvey's or McDonalds) was very rare, and buying "brand name"
clothing, etc. was unheard of. I can remember having take-out
fish and chips once a month or so, and don't think I experienced
pizza, KFC, etc. until my late teens. My family was not especially
unusual (at least not in this respect).
Much of the next generation ended up in double-income families,
frequently eating out, and having many more material goods and
conveniences (dishwashers, microwave ovens, etc.). In many cases,
when they move away from home they (not necessarily unreasonably)
expect the same standard of living.
I wonder how much that difference influences the lifestyles and
expectations of many students. The most obvious example of this
is the large number of restaurants and Food Services outlets
that are now available compared to what there was twenty-five
years ago. As best I can remember, Westmount Place had one
restaurant (just as it does now), but the current strip-malls
etc. near the University simply didn't exist then. What was
there then included a single fancy restaurant and a King Kong
sub shop. Many of the current Food Services outlets didn't exist,
and those that did wouldn't have lasted if they had sold things at
the current prices (taking inflation into account). Most of the
students simply couldn't afford them, and the idea of paying
for such products as bottled water or imported soda-pop would
have been a joke. For those of us that didn't live in residences
(I didn't move to WCRI until I was a grad student) meals were
generally eaten at home, and those that weren't were brought
in brown paper bags.
I don't doubt that there are many students living similar lives
today, but the number of students that seem to be able to afford
what I would have considered major extravagances (and in many
instances I still do) truly amazes me.
Adrian Pepper
Phil Caskanette <cask...@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca> wrote,
in article <33E228...@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca>:
>Chris Palmer wrote:
>>
>> In article <EE4w4...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
>> Ray Butterworth <rbutte...@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>> >On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:21:24 GMT,
>> >MBEL...@FEDS.uwaterloo.ca (Mario Bellabarba) wrote:
>> >>Look soon for OSAP's new motto: "You tried to make it on your own and
>> >>you failed...the moral is, don't try"
>> >
>> >How different are things now than they were 25 years ago ?
>> >
>> >I went through co-op without a student loan and ended up
>> >with money in the bank (albeit not very much) when I graduated.
>>
>> Alright. You did ask for this...
>[snip]
>> Now, I can't seem to find a good number for the poverty line. All I
>> could find was a rather biased $16,874 (for an individual in a large
>> city, like I guess toronto) [http://www.napo-onap.ca/nf-figur.htm].
>> I also can't find statistics about welfare payments to individuals.
>> Too bad.
>
>The poverty line has little bearing on the specific expenditures that
>students experience. There are cost-cutting and income-supplementation
>strategies that students can use that full-time workers can't.
Just as the poverty line has little bearing on the specific
expenditures that students experience, neither does the arbitrary
figure for expense inflation that you offer of a little under 200% (for
the time period you didn't specify exactly, actually).
During my University of Waterloo student days, from 1975 to 1980, I
came from Thunder Bay, so living at home was out-of-the-question. But,
as a co-op student I managed to save 1/2 my earnings each term so that
I just barely squeaked through financially with <$2000 help from my
family, in addition to the roughly $2000, saved from summer and
part-time jobs, that I set off to school with.
Many necessities have more than doubled since I was a student, and many
of the cost-cutting strategies have gone away. When I was a student I
could lunch on a "Torpedo" sandwich for just under $1, but a much less
filling modern version costs more than twice that. The machines in the
Math lounge would dribble out a cup of strange-coloured liquid for 15
cents, I believe. And chocolate bars were in the process of going up
from 25 to 35 cents. 1/4 pint of milk could be had for 35 cents, I
think. It was no problem to find even a supper restaurant meal for less
than two dollars in the late seventies, and the University cafeterias
came out slightly cheaper, and offered reliably nutritious and healthy
food. But now it is hard to find any restaurant meal for under $5,
even fast food, and the University cafeterias are no longer like they
used to be. And basic groceries have probably gone up about 250 to
300% or more. I remember Old South Orange Juice for 39 cents a can,
cheese for $1.29/lb, and green peppers for $.29/lb--all at
supermarkets. Bread was so cheap I can't even remember the price
clearly, but I'm sure it was around $.50/loaf.
In the late seventies, standard rent for a room in house was about $25
a week or $107/month, and half the rent for a two-bedroom apartment
would be almost exactly the same amount. Again, those prices have
probably more than doubled. Over roughly the same period, the price
for a basic box-with-four-wheels car has probably gone up by almost
eight from $2000 to $16000.
So, as far as I can tell, those "1997 dollars" only relate to (1972?)
dollars with the ratio you give if you include as a substantial portion
of the calculation the expense to employers of paying people the wages
which now buy them a lot less than they do before. Not many co-op
students are in that position.
The other possibility, if the inflation calculations are actually
cost-of-living calculations, is that the calculations factor in an
undue quantity of semi-luxury items, like furniture and appliances
which have gone not much up, and in some cases down, in price. Or
perhaps they focus a lot on the prices of "above-basic" versions of
items such as cars, which do not seem to have gone up by the same
multiples as the basic versions.
Well, I've rambled too much.
Adrian.
Adrian Pepper
Phil Caskanette <cask...@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca> wrote,
in article <33E75B...@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca>:
>Adrian Pepper wrote:
>>
>> Phil Caskanette <cask...@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca> wrote,
>>
>Beer and gas have definitely increased more due to the huge increases in
>taxes in the 80's and early 90's. New cars have also increased
>dramatically, but how many students bought new cars? My used car cost
>$3000 in 1978. It was 6 years old. You could likely find something
>comparable in CPI adjusted dollars now.
Public transportation, both within and out-of town has increased
somewhat relative to the cost of a bottle of beer, and increased
dramatically as a proportion of minimum wage. Both Kitchener and TTC
fare in the late seventies were in the $.35 to $.50 range (increasing
during my 1975-1980 degree). Beer was about $.40 a bottle. Minimum
wage was $3.65/hour, I believe. (Again probably increasing).
>Rent was higher than what you remember (I just threw out my cancelled
>cheques last summer and had this discussion with my teenagers). A one
>bedroom apartment of scuzzy quality was $150 in 1979. Our two bedroom
>apartment was $275 in King's Towers the same year (slightly better than
>scuzzy). Rooms were typically in the $35 per week range. The closer
>you were to UW, the rents increased exponentially. The one exception
>was Sunnydale but it was 'party central'.
So, I lived further from campus, and didn't have a car either. I
remember the prices correctly. Trevor Grove corroborates them in
another post. I might even be able to dig up some of my Ontario Tax
Credit claims, though I probably threw them out in the move back to
Waterloo. The cheapest I ever paid was $65/month for one of four rooms
in an apartment in a converted house. In Toronto, seemingly a big bone
of contention for co-op students, rooms were more like $30/week, and I
did find half a two bedroom apartment for 1/2 of about $200, although
it was at Finch and Yonge. The subway started out mostly empty,
though, so it was not that unpleasant. I think the price differential
between Toronto and Waterloo has increased during the intervening time,
making it hard to save money on a work-term in Toronto.
>On an overall basis, I don't have a good feel for the index. But if I
>could live comfortably on a much smaller work term salary, I think the
>CPI index can't be too far from reality.
Um. I thought you were saying that you couldn't. But I was saying that
the CPI index has not reflected enough increase, which would make it
easier for you to live comfortably.
>> So, as far as I can tell, those "1997 dollars" only relate to (1972?)
>> dollars with the ratio you give if you include as a substantial portion
>> of the calculation the expense to employers of paying people the wages
>> which now buy them a lot less than they do before. Not many co-op
>> students are in that position.
>
>I don't understand what you're trying to say? Based on what I've read,
>the relative cost of producing goods has gone down dramatically over the
>last few decades and the prices of most goods are less of a percentage
>of pay cheques (of the majority of employees). The differences are the
>number of 'toys' and appliances we feel we need, more spouses are
>working full time (nobody at home to produce everything from scratch),
>and the types of entertainment we feel we need. The major increased
>cost is taxes.
One claim I have is that the cost of many necessities or
near-necessities (housing and transportation) has increased more than
luxuries, resulting in less discretionary income, a fact possibly not
indicated by a CPI which includes non-necessities. Another is an
attempt to determine when people are talking about investor inflation
versus consumer cost-of-living increases. As you hint at, I think
co-op students end up paying a more substantial percentage of income
tax, although I've never actually done the calculations.
>Middle income earners have seen an erosion in real incomes as blue
>collar workers have increased their relative earnings. So you can see a
>dramatic difference in the middle-class lifestyle compared to the
>1970's. Maybe that's what you are referring to above?'
No, actually I was comparing the prospect of living for two terms on
one term's worth of near-minimum wage, i.e. my first work-term,
compared to the prospect of doing the same now. If co-op students no
longer make close to minimum wage, then presumably not being in co-op
might have a bigger bearing on how big a loan or grant a student needs,
although complaints seem to be coming from co-op students, perhaps
because of the increased prices in Toronto. The price differential for
living in Toronto in the late seventies was noticeable, but not
daunting, as I have indicated.
>I think Ray's suggestion that students expect a higher standard of
>living today is more to the point. I rarely ate at restaurants (I made
>an exception for Mother's all-you-can eat spaghetti nights for 99
>cents). Brand names still mean little to me, nor do stylish clothes.
I could eat at restaurants or take-out with reasonable frequency
without affecting my budget disastrously. In fact, for my first two
school terms, living on previous savings, my housing situation, while
it provided me breakfast (of sorts), required me to get lunch and
supper outside of the house. And did you eat in the University
cafeterias at all? Have you done so recently? Though some stuff at
the C&D's and the Chinese place at the cafeteria do seem comparable in
value to late seventies meat-and-potatoes school dinners at South
Campus Hall.
Of course, home computers are not cheap, and it's debateable whether
they are merely a luxurious toy for many students.
Adrian.
Trevor Grove
I have been reading the various contributions to this thread and have
enjoyed the trips down memory lane w.r.t. consumer pricing.
It is always difficult to compare prices then and now, because inflation
is not constant year-to-year (especially in those days). A useful
technique that I have
used to compare purchasing power then and now, as a fraction of salary.
For example, in my first year (1974), the median salary for my program
was $550/month. Tuition was $450 per term, and we figured on $75-100 for
books and essential school supplies (the odd pencil or pen). So,
roughly, school "fees" cost one month's salary.
Off-campus accomodation: one could get a two-bedroom apt. in a
servicible-but-low-end three-floor walk-up on Erb. St. W. (!) for around
$200/month.
Assuming one room-mate, rent cost 4*(200/2)=$400; add phone and
commuting costs of $50/mo (bus and/or parking on campus (ignoring
vehicle ownership costs)). So "shelter" costs were $450, or around 80%
of a month's salary.
Food is difficult to evaluate because tastes and habits change. I
recall $25/week = $110/month = $450/term. (Perhaps someone could compare
this to the cost of the Village meal plans as they were in thost days).
I have done similar calculations at various points through my school
years (details omitted because I'm long-winded enough as it is). It is
remarkably how the "percentage of salary" remained constant through the
years.
Now, I'm not current on current prices, but it seems to me that students
today are comparable or a little worse off. I leave it to someone more
knowledgeable than I to do equivalent calculation's for the current
situation.
============
Trevor Grove
Adjunct lecturer, Computer Science, and
Consulting Researcher, Computer Systems Group
University of Waterloo; Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1
Voice: +1 519 888 4679 Facsimile: +1 519 746 5422 E-mail:
t...@csg.UWaterloo.CA
Phil Caskanette
Adrian Pepper wrote:
>
> Phil Caskanette <cask...@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca> wrote,
> in article <33E75B...@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca>:
> >Adrian Pepper wrote:
> >>
> >> Phil Caskanette <cask...@mc1adm.uwaterloo.ca> wrote,
> >cheques last summer and had this discussion with my teenagers). A one
> >bedroom apartment of scuzzy quality was $150 in 1979. Our two bedroom
> >apartment was $275 in King's Towers the same year (slightly better than
> >scuzzy). Rooms were typically in the $35 per week range. The closer
> >you were to UW, the rents increased exponentially. The one exception
> >was Sunnydale but it was 'party central'.
>
> So, I lived further from campus, and didn't have a car either. I
> remember the prices correctly. Trevor Grove corroborates them in
> another post.
Therein lies one explanation for the discrepancy. If I'm not mistaken,
Trevor was quoting prices from the mid-70's. I was describing prices at
the time I graduated (1979), and you were compairing them to prices when
you started.
> >On an overall basis, I don't have a good feel for the index. But if I
> >could live comfortably on a much smaller work term salary, I think the
> >CPI index can't be too far from reality.
>
> Um. I thought you were saying that you couldn't. But I was saying that
> the CPI index has not reflected enough increase, which would make it
> easier for you to live comfortably.
Again your perception of inaccuracies in my post may be based on a CPI
conversion from start of school versus end of school (my basis). Hyper
inflation was rampant in the 1970's and would have a significant effect
on price perception.
> One claim I have is that the cost of many necessities or
> near-necessities (housing and transportation) has increased more than
> luxuries, resulting in less discretionary income, a fact possibly not
> indicated by a CPI which includes non-necessities. Another is an
> attempt to determine when people are talking about investor inflation
> versus consumer cost-of-living increases. As you hint at, I think
> co-op students end up paying a more substantial percentage of income
> tax, although I've never actually done the calculations.
There has been a marked increase in housing costs if you purchase a
house. There is a much smaller increase in housing costs if you rent.
The rent controls and a glut of rental accomodation have had a
significant damping effect on pricing. Whether it is up more or less
than the CPI, I don't know. I don't have a good feel for current
pricing on scuzzy apartments.
Income taxes in general have gone up, but not as much as other taxes.
Whether income taxes affect students more or less, I don't know. If
they do, it's probably because the average co-op wage has gone up.
(That's my impression not based on calculations.)
For other costs, some are up and some are down compared to the CPI. I
think Trevor's methodology warrants consideration but the comparisons
have to be of similar lifestyles to be able to isolate the causes of any
discrepancies. How do you determine what is a typical (or average) cost
or lifestyle, then and now? Between Ray, you and myself I can see
lifestyle differences that would affect our perceptions of costs. That
was my original motivation for picking the CPI because it is relatively
objective or at least defensible as a measure of average consumer costs.
> No, actually I was comparing the prospect of living for two terms on
> one term's worth of near-minimum wage, i.e. my first work-term,
> compared to the prospect of doing the same now. If co-op students no
> longer make close to minimum wage, then presumably not being in co-op
> might have a bigger bearing on how big a loan or grant a student needs,
> although complaints seem to be coming from co-op students, perhaps
> because of the increased prices in Toronto. The price differential for
> living in Toronto in the late seventies was noticeable, but not
> daunting, as I have indicated.
>
I think that was one of my earlier points, that co-op wages have gone up
significantly compared to costs. Based on my major, the current average
monthly salaries (and that's what my work-term salaries were based on)
have gone up from $1000 to $2455 for the final term. By comparison, the
minimum wage has gone up from $4.00 to $6.95, an index of 1.74 (and <
CPI index for the period). In fact, if you check out the survey at
http://www.adm.uwaterloo.ca:80/infocecs/Employers/studentsurvey.html,
you'll see that only the first AHS work term ($7.75/hr.) comes close to
minimum wage.
> And did you eat in the University
> cafeterias at all? Have you done so recently?
Yes and yes, but not enough to judge the price differential. I mostly
brought a lunch from home and still do.
> Of course, home computers are not cheap, and it's debateable whether
> they are merely a luxurious toy for many students.
The same argument was made for calculators in our time. The scientific
calculators when we started university were about 75% of a month's
salary. Most people considered them a luxury until the price dropped a
few years later. Doing statistical calculations (like least squares)
and trig calculations was quite a bit easier though.
Michael Herz
In article <EE5xD...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>, crpa...@wheat.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Palmer) wrote:
>Alright. You did ask for this...
>
>[http://eoa-hrdc.com/3519/docs/ontwage.htm]. So, working at McDonald's,
>full-time, gives you an annual income of 6.85*37.5*52 = $13,357.50.
>
>Now, just for fun, let's contrast this to a co-op student. The numbers
>are a little funny because there is no set number of weeks and the salaries
... snip ....
It drives me crazy how people whine about how bad THEIR situations are all the
time. I think people take the standard of living in this country way too much
for granted most of the time.
I successfully received a Mechanical Engineering Degree (grad 88) from UofT
within the standard timeframe, and lived on my own, and lived in downtown
Toronto, and got NO help from my parents, and had no money saved for school.
In addition to doing what took to find a job from the first day of summer
break to at least the very last day of summer break (UofT isn't co-op :-), I
always had at least one part time job during school. I never would have
imagined it could be any other way.
Yes, it was devastating going to work while I watched my friends party their
parents money away and yes I was a little tired for a great portion of my 4
years. I'm sure that if you factor in part time work during the school term
your financial picture will improve to the point where you will have money to
spare.
Chris Palmer
In article <EEHvG...@novice.uwaterloo.ca>,
Michael Herz <mh...@sunburn.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>In article <EE5xD...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>, crpa...@wheat.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Palmer) wrote:
>>Alright. You did ask for this...
>>
>>Ontario's minimum wage is $6.85/hour.
>>[http://eoa-hrdc.com/3519/docs/ontwage.htm]. So, working at McDonald's,
>>full-time, gives you an annual income of 6.85*37.5*52 = $13,357.50.
>>
>>Now, just for fun, let's contrast this to a co-op student. The numbers
>>are a little funny because there is no set number of weeks and the salaries
>
>time. I think people take the standard of living in this country way too much
>for granted most of the time.
>
>I successfully received a Mechanical Engineering Degree (grad 88) from UofT
>within the standard timeframe, and lived on my own, and lived in downtown
>Toronto, and got NO help from my parents, and had no money saved for school.
>In addition to doing what took to find a job from the first day of summer
>break to at least the very last day of summer break (UofT isn't co-op :-), I
>always had at least one part time job during school. I never would have
>imagined it could be any other way.
Just to be nit-picky, I was simply trying to provide some numbers that
agreed with the original question (by Ray Butterworth?) as to how things
compared to when he was a student. I don't believe that there was any
whining in my posting, nor do I believe that I said there was any relation-
ship between what I wrote and my own personal university experience.
Michael Herz
In article <EEK9...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
>Just to be nit-picky, I was simply trying to provide some numbers that
>agreed with the original question (by Ray Butterworth?) as to how things
>compared to when he was a student. I don't believe that there was any
>whining in my posting, nor do I believe that I said there was any relation-
>ship between what I wrote and my own personal university experience.
>
>Chris.
My apologies. I seem to quick on the draw these days when I think I hear
people saying how bad everything is. It does seem that I hear these feelings
frequently with all these students around.
I may already be turning into my father on issues like this :-)