Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

[Rocko]

Hey all,

I need a little guidance on some settings and what I should be seeing.  I bought a couple tubes from a guy that came with a Roetest printout and I would like to compare them to my Utracer results but well I am no expert and could use a hand making sure I have all the settings correct.

Below is a picture of the Roetest sheet, tube data sheet and my Utracer test and settings.  I am a little unsure of what to put in for 'NOM' settings.  Also, I think I have the pinnout correct but not 100% sure.

If someone could have a look and offer some guidance that would be really great!

Many thanks to anyone who replies.

Rocko

[Rocko]

Oops forgot to add that my external power supply for the heater was 6.3V and was drawing 0.901A on that test.

[theold...@gmail.com]

Quick question, have you downloaded and studied the PDF user manual I prepared for the uTracer?

It is available at: https://www.dos4ever.com/uTracer3/uTracer3_user_man.pdf

 

Bill v

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Rocko
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2022 11:26 AM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

Oops forgot to add that my external power supply for the heater was 6.3V and was drawing 0.901A on that test.

On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 8:22:08 AM UTC-8 Rocko wrote:

Hey all,

 

I need a little guidance on some settings and what I should be seeing.  I bought a couple tubes from a guy that came with a Roetest printout and I would like to compare them to my Utracer results but well I am no expert and could use a hand making sure I have all the settings correct.

 

Below is a picture of the Roetest sheet, tube data sheet and my Utracer test and settings.  I am a little unsure of what to put in for 'NOM' settings.  Also, I think I have the pinnout correct but not 100% sure.

 

If someone could have a look and offer some guidance that would be really great!

 

 

Many thanks to anyone who replies.

 

Rocko

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[Rocko]

Yes Bill I have been through the manual.  That is where I found out the the word Filament is synonymous for the word Heater.  I do not have any background in electrical.  I do not even know what half the symbols mean, I am a total noob.  

Imagine a total noob reading the manual, 

"The way the grid bias is calibrated at the moment is based on an approximation whereby the transfer function between the set-point grid bias is related to the PWM duty-cycle by a single straight line. Figure 8.4.1A shows how it is done. The relation between the duty-cycle (n) and the set-point grid-bias (Vset) is given by a n = Vset ⋅ C ⋅ λ40, with C = 1023/50."

So, no I have not spend days/weeks studying and googling every phrase that I do not fully understand.  That is because I would be dead long before I got it all sorted.

I can take away from your comment about the manual that either you are upset by the amount of posts, or that you want to verify that I am using it the best I can.  I am hoping it is to verify that I know it exists and that I am using it the best I can.

Rocko

[theold...@gmail.com]

No worries, ask away. I just wanted to be sure you have access to the manual.

 

Yes, some of the stuff related to the inner workings of the uTracer is not useful for everyone, and although interesting to those who understand it, it is not all essential knowledge for day to day operation. I suppose the primary difficulty is knowing what is, and what isn’t. Your quote below is a good example of that. My apologies if I gave the wrong impression. It is sometimes difficult for us on the explanation side to fully understand the question so we don’t end up writing a whole long diatribe which still does not provide the answer you are looking for.

 

The “NOM” in the uTracer form simply is an abbreviation of the word “Nominal”, it is used here because tubes are not very exact animals; if the transconductance (same as gm) is given as for example 6.1, than that probably represents the average of the production results for a large number of those tubes. You will find that word often in the data sheets. You take that number from the data sheet, and the uTracer will tell you the deviation from the number you entered to what is measured. Unfortunately the data sheets don’t always give you the gm, or sometimes it is called uuMho (pronounced micro-mo). Here is the word Mho used as a reverse of Ohm. One micromho (or to confuse things even more, also called a microSiemen) is defined as 1 microAmp per Volt. The amplification factor (u in the sheet you copied below) is not always given either. If it is, you enter it in the uTracer form (mu1), and the result will give the % deviation from what is measured.

 

With respect to connections, there are often different names used for them, especially between European and US manufacturers. You already discovered the heater. Another common is the plate, or anode. Same thing. G1 or grid 1 is most always the input or control grid, which makes sense, in a triode there is only one grid. When a second grid is added, it is therefore called G2, or the screen. A third grid is than G3, or the suppressor grid. The suppressor grid is most often used at cathode potential; sometimes even connected internally, but in other tubes you have to make the connection yourself. Look at the tube data sheet. Additional grids may be added, sometimes as many as 5 (the pentagrid tube). These are usually RF tubes, where the additional grids are primarily to control internal capacitance issues.

Some tubes don’t have a cathode connection, these are called directly heated tubes where the heater also is the cathode. A tube without grids is a diode, used for rectification or RF detection.

 

Hope that helps. Many books are written about tubes, so the more specific the question, the better your answer.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/fd3f9bcc-c0b0-48e5-856a-c392cf990533n%40googlegroups.com.

[Rocko]

Well I thought I would read the manual again and go through the calibration to get more familiar with the components and just to make sure everything was operating properly and now I have a real problem.

I had completed the high voltage modification that was recommended and everything was great.  But the calibration procedure doesn't really take that into account so I was adjusting manually the Ia and Is and Compliance to what it said in the calibration document (entering in by hand, nothing in the drop down menu matched) and everything seemed fine until I got to the Calibration of the Current amplifiers.  I thought all was good, I had the the lines perfectly crossing the center mark when the slight high pitched whine of the unit got increasingly louder and then nothing.  The unit emitted a slight epoxy/component burning smell.  Now with it hooked up to the power supply in only draws about 5.9 volts and the power LED lights up but that is all.  

On a positive, no slight high pitched whine anymore, fixed that annoying feature!

So it is a boat anchor until I figure out what is wrong.  Wish me luck, I know I will need it.  

Rocko

[theold...@gmail.com]

Wow, that blows.

Good luck with the repair. You mention a whine before it died. It should not do that. I would suggest you go through the whole construction manual again, and check each and every detail (including component values and orientation of polarized parts) before doing anything else. The only thing I can think of that could produce a whine is the high voltage inductors, so pay particular attention to that circuitry.

 

Good luck,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/670bdf55-b52f-4331-938e-efc3f3c6151dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Martin Manning]

What "high voltage modification?" Do you mean high current?

If you've done the high current modification and entered new values for the current sense resistors, the pull-down values are recalculated for your sense resistor values. The exact compliance limits are not important as long as they are a bit higher than the calibration current, and the calibration procedure is the same. 

How do you have your power supply set up? I typically set 20V and current limit. For testing purposes, set 500 mA. The tracer should draw ~260 mA at idle.

I'm guessing your negative voltage supply failed, since it is fed by a boost converter that is running continuously. Can you tell which components were toasted, either by visual or olfactory inspection?

Check voltages as shown here to determine which of the power supplies are still operating. If the power LED is on, that says you have the 5V supply. You said your soldering is better than you thought. I think now you will get to try some unsoldering. For that you will need solder braid, a solder sucker, and some Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol to remove flux residue..

[Rocko]

Yes high current mod is what I completed.  Everything was working fine in V12.6 software and I had entered the correct values.  I have tested a bunch of 12AU7 and 6SN7 tubes.

I set the voltage at 19V and 500ma for the build and then 20V 1A for the calibration and running of the unit.  The Utracer draws around ~250ma when at idle and everything was looking good.

The high pitched whine is described in Part 7 of the construction manual.  It is actually described as a hiss.  That hissing noise got louder and louder and then was no more. 

I ran the utracer at 20V and 1A like it said in the calibration manual.  I have a power supply that does 0-30V and 0-10A for the Utracer 3+ and another one that does 0-30V 0-5A for the external heater.  

In regards to the build, I was very cautious about orientation.  I spent a couple of days making sure and checking every picture to find where every piece went and which way it was oriented.  I even placed all the resistors in the same direction as the pictures until I realised later that this was not required when I came across one that looked a little different and had to google search what was going on.  Not saying I still didn't make a mistake, I will check for sure.

I will focus on testing the Negative Power Supply area.  Hopefully I can narrow down what part(s) need replacing.  I have a magnifying light and could not see anything burnt, but pressing my beak right onto the area the smell is definitely strongest in that area of the board.

I am very suspicious of the calibration procedure.  If someone could verify if it is still correct for a Utracer 3+ with the High Current Mod in place that would be helpful, it is dated 2013 r1.

Also, since I have done the high current mod, everywhere it says in the calibration manual to Set Range Ia = 0 – 40 mA, Is = 0 – 40 mA, Compliance = 200 mA, where should this be set for someone on the high current 600ma version?  Right after the calibration of the Current Amplifiers and I got the lines on the center of the cross perfectly I went to re read to make sure that I had done everything correctly and that is when the hiss started getting louder and louder and then nothing.

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

There is a calibration file posted by me on this group site. It's the procedure I use, and I am running a high current configuration. If your tracer was whining all along, something was probably not right. Maybe a bad inductor? Check the voltages as described above and you will probably locate the issue.

[Rocko]

Thanks for the info.  I will search for your calibration procedure if I get this back up and operational.  

Checking voltages:

Now when I plug in the Utracer to 19V 500ma my power supply shows the utracer only drawing around 4 volts and around the 4-500ma range.  So testing voltages is not going to be possible.  I have looked at the schematic and have realised with my level of understanding the one sure way of fixing this unit by myself is to desolder every component and start from scratch and replace components in sections that do not test out properly as per the construction manual.

That is a lot of work and would turn into a huge mess even for a seasoned builder.  So, unless someone has a killer idea I think my only options are:

1.  Buy a new kit and build it again.

2.  Throw it out and say fuck it.

Hoping one of you has a killer idea.

Rocko

[theold...@gmail.com]

I don’t understand: “drawing around 4 volts and around the 4-500ma range”. Are you saying it pulls your power supply down to 4 Volt? Can you explain this further?

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Rocko
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2022 12:48 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/07c7f783-1be9-4086-9092-a6e898596ab9n%40googlegroups.com.

[Martin Manning]

Your power supply is dropping the voltage to stay within the current limit. Something must be shorted, or nearly so. 

Can you remove T2 and see what happens? That will disconnect power to the negative voltage supply.

[Rocko]

Yes that is what is happening the power supply is dropping down to 4V.  See pictures below.  I will attempt to do the T2 removal and report back.

 

Rocko

[Rocko]

Ok this is now with T2 out.  Yeah!  So what would you recommend as a next step?

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

Better, but still too much current. Check the positive voltages, but don't leave it on any longer than necessary.

[Rocko]

Ok,

The +5  from your post above on the PIC Processor was +5.08 and the +15 on IC5 was +14.92

I also checked the +5 Volt spot on IC11 as written in the construction manual in Part 3 and it was +5.08 as well.

Next?

:)

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

Ok, lift the cathode (banded) end of D1. If your meter has a diode check function, test D2. If it tests good (positive lead on the anode and negative lead on the cathode should get a beep and a forward voltage drop, no reading if you reverse the leads), use your other power supply to put NEGATIVE 20V, current limited, on the raised (cathode) end of D2. To do this clip the power supply's positive to ground and its negative to D2's cathode. The power supply is isolated, correct? And there is no earth ground strap installed, right? That should bring the negative rail voltage back to -15V, and perhaps get it working. If D2 is shorted it should be ok to do this; you just want to get negative voltage going to the negative regulator.

[Rocko]

Ok,

I have read this about 10 times and have some results and a question:

Results:

1.  I tested D2 in the board and it gives me a beep and a reading around 517 and the reversed I get no reading (1 in screen)

2.  I tested D1 in the board because why not and it has no beep but a reading around 495 and reversed around 987 (did not get to the 1 on the meter, no reading)

Questions:

1.  You say to raise cathode (banded end of D1), then later you go on to say put NEGATIVE 20V on the raised Cathode end of D2, but you never instructed me to raise the cathode banded end of D2?

2.  By isolated power supplies I am unsure but I have 2 separate power supplies one box that is dedicated for the Utracer and one separate box that is dedicated to the external heater circuit that both plug in separately to the AC wall plugs. Two units that look like the pictures I posted above. 

3.  When I apply this NEGATIVE 20V, I have the Utracers power on or off?  I am assuming on because I am using a second power supply but just want to make sure.

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

Questions:

1.  You say to raise cathode (banded end of D1), then later you go on to say put NEGATIVE 20V on the raised Cathode end of D2, but you never instructed me to raise the cathode banded end of D2?

>>>Sorry, I meant to say D1 both times. Leave D2 in place.

2.  By isolated power supplies I am unsure but I have 2 separate power supplies one box that is dedicated for the Utracer and one separate box that is dedicated to the external heater circuit that both plug in separately to the AC wall plugs. Two units that look like the pictures I posted above. 

>>>Yes, use your heater supply to provide the negative voltage.

3.  When I apply this NEGATIVE 20V, I have the Utracers power on or off?  I am assuming on because I am using a second power supply but just want to make sure.

>>>Yes, you're using one supply to power the tracer, except since the feed to the negative supply is disconnected, you are using the other supply to provide the negative voltage.

[Rocko]

Sorry, you are helping so much I just want to be able to report back what has happened etc, I have everything hooked up and ready to go.

Do I test something while this is on?  Is there something I should observe to know it has worked?

What would be the next step?

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

This is what you're doing:

A good result is that you get -15V at the location marked on the board above, at R7. If so, then the problem is in that bit of circuit with T1, T2, and L1

[Rocko]

This is a description and what I get.  Status T2 removed, D1 banded side lifted from board.

Power supply 1 (20V 500ma) attached to Utracer power connector. (+ to +/ - to -)

Power Supply 2 (20V 500ma), Negative attached to lifted banded pin of D1, positive attached to ground.

Voltage at R7 (like where it shows to test for -15 Volts in construction manual) reading 1.7V.  The second power supply is being drawn down to like 1.4 volts from 20V.

I guess this is really bad news.  You can tell me straight out if it is a boat anchor and a lost cause.

Rocko

[Rocko]

I tried testing it with just:

 Power supply 1 on only (utracer power supply) I get 1.7V.  

Power supply 2 on only I get 0V.  

Power supply 1 & 2 on 1.7V

Rocko

[Rocko]

On my schematic that came with my utracer 3+ it shows your D1 as my D16?

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

What resistance do you get from D1's anode to ground? That should tell you if C1 is shorted.

[Martin Manning]

Crap. Well, put D1 back and try the same as you did above with D16.

[Martin Manning]

I have downloaded the latest manual now. Shoulda checked that.... Anyway, maybe it'll work this time.

[theold...@gmail.com]

Sorry to but in, but if Rocco put the power supply 2 over the Di diode, and drops to 0V, that could mean D1 is shorted? (should be at least 0.7V if OK)

 

Since T2 seems to be removed from the board, it would be great to test it with a multimeter

 

Rocco, for an example of testing see: https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/test-methods/meters/multimeter-diode-transistor-test.php

 

Bill v

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Martin Manning
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2022 5:28 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

Crap. Well, put D1 back and try the same as you did above with D16.

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 5:23:12 PM UTC-5 Martin Manning wrote:

What resistance do you get from D1's anode to ground? That should tell you if C1 is shorted.

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 4:52:29 PM UTC-5 Rocko wrote:

I tried testing it with just:

 

 Power supply 1 on only (utracer power supply) I get 1.7V.  

 

Power supply 2 on only I get 0V.  

 

Power supply 1 & 2 on 1.7V

 

Rocko

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 1:42:23 PM UTC-8 Rocko wrote:

This is a description and what I get.  Status T2 removed, D1 banded side lifted from board.

 

Power supply 1 (20V 500ma) attached to Utracer power connector. (+ to +/ - to -)

 

Power Supply 2 (20V 500ma), Negative attached to lifted banded pin of D1, positive attached to ground.

 

Voltage at R7 (like where it shows to test for -15 Volts in construction manual) reading 1.7V.  The second power supply is being drawn down to like 1.4 volts from 20V.

 

I guess this is really bad news.  You can tell me straight out if it is a boat anchor and a lost cause.

 

 

 

Rocko

 

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 12:29:33 PM UTC-8 mman...@fuse.net wrote:

This is what you're doing:

 

 

Rocko

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 10:07:48 AM UTC-8 Rocko wrote:

Yes that is what is happening the power supply is dropping down to 4V.  See pictures below.  I will attempt to do the T2 removal and report back.

 

 

 

 

Rocko

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/461a5252-6ff6-433d-aee8-92f02f09baebn%40googlegroups.com.

[Rocko]

Martin,

Done and I am getting -14.7V, yeah!  When power supply 2 is on doing this test the draw on power supply 1 feeding the Utracer drops from ~450ma to ~88ma.  When power supply 2 is turned off it jumps back up to ~450ma.

Bill, I am unsure what Di diode is, do you mean D1?

Martin, what do you think this all means?  I appreciate everything you are doing.  Is there something next to do to make sure we have found all the bad parts or do I just order a bunch of T2's?

After it is figured all out what is wrong, I sure would like to know how it happened so I do not press that button again.

Waiting to hear from you.

Thanks,

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

No worries Bill. If the neg supply was ok, that's where I was going to go next.

[theold...@gmail.com]

Yes, D1, the one you lifted one side out of the board

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Rocko
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2022 5:50 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

Martin,

 

 

Rocko

 

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 12:29:33 PM UTC-8 mman...@fuse.net wrote:

This is what you're doing:

 

 

Rocko

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 10:07:48 AM UTC-8 Rocko wrote:

Yes that is what is happening the power supply is dropping down to 4V.  See pictures below.  I will attempt to do the T2 removal and report back.

 

 

 

 

Rocko

 

Many thanks to anyone who replies.

 

Rocko

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[Martin Manning]

Ok great! With the neg supply back up you should be able to open the GUI, go into debug, and ping it.

You can test the transistor T2 per Bill's link. Let's see if it's shorted. In any case I'd be inclined to replace it, and maybe T1 too. Since there was whining noise I'd be inclined to replace the inductor L1 as well.

[Rocko]

I completed the testing on T2 like Bill suggested and it is as follow.

With the positive or negative hooked up to Pin 1 (BASE) I get:

Pin 2 Collector 0.005

Pin 3 Emitter 0.012

Based upon this drawing downloaded from Mouser for a BD138.

Rocko

[Rocko]

Ping completed.

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

Ok, good. What are the numbers you are reporting for the transistor test? 

I would test it using the diode check as described here, and remember it is a PNP.

https://www.tutorialspoint.com/how-to-test-a-transistor-using-a-digital-multimeter

[theold...@gmail.com]

OK, that transistor is shorted. Dead. Definitely explains the high current draw.

 

Remaining question, why?? Although random failure is possible, we should do a bit more testing before drawing final conclusions. Martin has a tract in mind, so I’ll pull back again for now.

 

Bill v

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Rocko
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2022 6:09 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

I completed the testing on T2 like Bill suggested and it is as follow.

 

With the positive or negative hooked up to Pin 1 (BASE) I get:

 

Pin 2 Collector 0.005

 

Pin 3 Emitter 0.012

 

Based upon this drawing downloaded from Mouser for a BD138.

 

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/2c7b5637-8008-4138-991f-a1ee3e9d87a4n%40googlegroups.com.

[Rocko]

Martin,

I have no idea what PNP or NPN means in real life.  I put my DVM on the Ohm 2k setting and held positive on Pin one and tested the other 2 pins and then negative on pin one and tested the other 2 pins.

The right most pin with lettering facing me is pin 1 middle is pin 2 left pin 3, just like that pic of the BD138 from mouser.

Yes please, why did this happen?  I need to know what button not to press or else I should just order 100 of each part?

The hissing noise is detailed in the Construction Manual Part 7 page 28.  Ronald says it is normal and when I first built it yes there was a hissing as soon as Part 7 was complete.

So I should replace T2, L1, and L2, I should get those on order ASAP?  L1 is going to be a bitch to replace.  Are there better components I should get or just the same ones?

Rocko

[theold...@gmail.com]

NPN or PNP refers to the direction of the internal diodes, identified by the small arrow in the transistor symbol, the arrow also indicates the direction of the conventional current flow (not electron flow).

 

 

 

 

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Rocko
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2022 6:35 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

Martin,

 

I have no idea what PNP or NPN means in real life.  I put my DVM on the Ohm 2k setting and held positive on Pin one and tested the other 2 pins and then negative on pin one and tested the other 2 pins.

 

The right most pin with lettering facing me is pin 1 middle is pin 2 left pin 3, just like that pic of the BD138 from mouser.

 

Yes please, why did this happen?  I need to know what button not to press or else I should just order 100 of each part?

 

The hissing noise is detailed in the Construction Manual Part 7 page 28.  Ronald says it is normal and when I first built it yes there was a hissing as soon as Part 7 was complete.

 

So I should replace T2, L1, and L2, I should get those on order ASAP?  L1 is going to be a bitch to replace.  Are there better components I should get or just the same ones?

 

Rocko

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 3:21:54 PM UTC-8 mman...@fuse.net wrote:

Ok, good. What are the numbers you are reporting for the transistor test? 

 

I would test it using the diode check as described here, and remember it is a PNP.

https://www.tutorialspoint.com/how-to-test-a-transistor-using-a-digital-multimeter

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 6:14:03 PM UTC-5 Rocko wrote:

Ping completed.

 

 

 

Rocko

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 3:08:31 PM UTC-8 Rocko wrote:

I completed the testing on T2 like Bill suggested and it is as follow.

 

With the positive or negative hooked up to Pin 1 (BASE) I get:

 

Pin 2 Collector 0.005

 

Pin 3 Emitter 0.012

 

Based upon this drawing downloaded from Mouser for a BD138.

 

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/a50920a5-013e-4ac0-b5e5-1f4c316e1c74n%40googlegroups.com.

[theold...@gmail.com]

Martin,

 

It looks like the BD138 is shorted, and I can see (besides a unlikely random failure) no reason for it than reverse power supply. I think Rocco indicated the main current draw (even with T2 removed) was still high, so there may be additional damage in one or more of the high voltage circuits. That would jive again with a reversed PS. At least it seems to MPU is alive and well.

 

Rocco,

 

Can you tell us again what happens to the current in the main supply while T2 is still removed?

 

Bill v

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Martin Manning
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2022 6:22 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

Ok, good. What are the numbers you are reporting for the transistor test? 

 

I would test it using the diode check as described here, and remember it is a PNP.

https://www.tutorialspoint.com/how-to-test-a-transistor-using-a-digital-multimeter

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 6:14:03 PM UTC-5 Rocko wrote:

Ping completed.

 

 

 

Rocko

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 3:08:31 PM UTC-8 Rocko wrote:

I completed the testing on T2 like Bill suggested and it is as follow.

 

With the positive or negative hooked up to Pin 1 (BASE) I get:

 

Pin 2 Collector 0.005

 

Pin 3 Emitter 0.012

 

Based upon this drawing downloaded from Mouser for a BD138.

 

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/5dc96425-87ee-4c50-b334-36dc8f7f1e2dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Rocko]

Ok i did the test with the diode setting and I get the same results 0.005 and 0.012

Below is a picture of my power supply with the Utracer hooked up and on.  Talking about reversing the power I have no idea how that could even happen, my box I have it in is black, and red plugs for power, my banana plugs are all black and red for power.  I was at the end of the calibration when this all happened, it had been plugged in and operational for like 30 minutes or more as I was working through the calibration document.  I had just tested a couple of tubes before I started the calibration as well so I could compare to post calibration.

Martin, I found your calibration document:  How do I set Compliance to 200ma without typing it in?  It goes from 150 to 225?  Also, same question for the Is it goes from 0-30 to 0-60, no 0-40.

That is with T2 out and D16 pin lifted.

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

You can measure the junction forward voltages Vf as is it the transistor is two diodes that share a common terminal, common anode for an NPN, and common cathode for a PNP.  I mention that your BD138 is a PNP because the linked multimeter transistor test procedures show an NPN. The difference is which way the probes have to be connected to get a Vf (about 0.7V). For the PNP, the negative lead goes to the base, and the positive lead is touched to the emitter and collector. Reversing the leads should get "OL" (open loop), with no Vf displayed. NPN is the opposite. My meter makes a continuous tone if the junction is shorted.

You might be ok showing the high current draw when the negative supply is absent. That might be causing the Op Amps to saturate. You mentioned that when the negative supply was present the current draw was much lower. 

I would replace the inductor L1 and transistors T1 and T2, and hope for the best. As I said above, there should not be whining from the inductor, and its failure due to overheating and shorting may have been the root cause. 

I don't understand why your compliance range stops at 220 mA if you have done the high current mod. You should have entered new values for the current sense resistors in the calibration form, which causes the compliance ranges to be updated. I believe you have to restart the GUI for those changes to take effect.

[Rocko]

Thanks again.

When I get the new PNP I will measure it and then see what a good one is supposed to do.

I will hope for the best and place the order for the three parts tonight (T1, T2, and L1), I will get extras just in case, lol.

My compliance range goes all the way to 600, the drop down menu this value (200) does not exist.  I have the following in the drop down menus for Compliance, Ia and Is:

Compliance:

600mA

525mA

450mA

375mA

300mA

225mA

150mA

75mA

off!

Ia and Is:

0-600mA

0-300mA

0-120mA

0-60mA

0-30mA

0-15mA

0-6mA

0-3mA

Automatic

So in the Calibration directions I am supposed to choose:

5. Set Range Ia = 0 – 40 mA, Is = 0 – 40 mA, Average = 4X, Compliance = 200 mA, and Delay
= 0 (sec).

I hope you can see my confusion.  I do not have those values to select, I have to manually enter them if I want them.

Here is what I entered in the calibration file as per the directions.   https://www.dos4ever.com/uTracerNotebook/Notebook.html#Current2

I will not get the parts for a couple of days so if anything else comes to mind for me to check or if you can see I have been doing something wrong please let me know.  I really do not want this to happen again if at all possible.  I honestly have no idea what went wrong and I am hopeful it was a bad component.

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

You can try the multimeter transistor test with any BJT you have around, even if you don't know which lead is which. When you get a forward voltage, the red lead is on a P, and the black lead in on an N. I grabbed a couple and constructed the examples below. 

You might want to get a cheap ATMega328 component tester like this: https://www.amazon.com/ACEIRMC-Multi-Function-Pocketable-Multifunctional-Transistor/dp/B08K3BGKXC/ref=sr_1_15?gclid=Cj0KCQiAyracBhDoARIsACGFcS5SMXfh98rISprLsmMK1Zp844CdFF4xEm7WmC8cUhxBphoZiagcoDAaArQyEALw_wcB&hvadid=580648701506&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9015713&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=4183852938995913435&hvtargid=kwd-1020515270773&hydadcr=9236_13528638&keywords=gm328+component+tester&qid=1670260886&sr=8-15. 

They are really handy for such things.

On the compliance and range settings, it's really not critical. As long as the compliance is set high enough to let the tracer get to the 20 or so mA you are calibrating to, and the same goes for Range. That, and Averaging, could really be left on "auto." It looks like you have the high current mod set up correctly. It just wasn't clear to me that you had the full range available in the pull-down. 

[theold...@gmail.com]

Hey Martin,

 

Nice job on that test chart.

 

You may now have to explain what a Bipolar Junction Transistor is 😊.

 

That is a pretty cool tester, certainly for that price. I have a bunch of PEAK electronics testers:

https://www.peakelec.co.uk/

Very nice stuff.

 

Bill v

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Martin Manning
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 12:37 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

You can try the multimeter transistor test with any BJT you have around, even if you don't know which lead is which. When you get a forward voltage, the red lead is on a P, and the black lead in on an N. I grabbed a couple and constructed the examples below. 

 

You might want to get a cheap ATMega328 component tester like this: https://www.amazon.com/ACEIRMC-Multi-Function-Pocketable-Multifunctional-Transistor/dp/B08K3BGKXC/ref=sr_1_15?gclid=Cj0KCQiAyracBhDoARIsACGFcS5SMXfh98rISprLsmMK1Zp844CdFF4xEm7WmC8cUhxBphoZiagcoDAaArQyEALw_wcB&hvadid=580648701506&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9015713&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=b&hvrand=4183852938995913435&hvtargid=kwd-1020515270773&hydadcr=9236_13528638&keywords=gm328+component+tester&qid=1670260886&sr=8-15. 

 

They are really handy for such things.

 

On the compliance and range settings, it's really not critical. As long as the compliance is set high enough to let the tracer get to the 20 or so mA you are calibrating to, and the same goes for Range. That, and Averaging, could really be left on "auto." It looks like you have the high current mod set up correctly. It just wasn't clear to me that you had the full range available in the pull-down. 

 

 

I will not get the parts for a couple of days so if anything else comes to mind for me to check or if you can see I have been doing something wrong please let me know.  I really do not want this to happen again if at all possible.  I honestly have no idea what went wrong and I am hopeful it was a bad component.

 

Rocko

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 5:55:07 PM UTC-8 mman...@fuse.net wrote:

You can measure the junction forward voltages Vf as is it the transistor is two diodes that share a common terminal, common anode for an NPN, and common cathode for a PNP.  I mention that your BD138 is a PNP because the linked multimeter transistor test procedures show an NPN. The difference is which way the probes have to be connected to get a Vf (about 0.7V). For the PNP, the negative lead goes to the base, and the positive lead is touched to the emitter and collector. Reversing the leads should get "OL" (open loop), with no Vf displayed. NPN is the opposite. My meter makes a continuous tone if the junction is shorted.

 

You might be ok showing the high current draw when the negative supply is absent. That might be causing the Op Amps to saturate. You mentioned that when the negative supply was present the current draw was much lower. 

 

I would replace the inductor L1 and transistors T1 and T2, and hope for the best. As I said above, there should not be whining from the inductor, and its failure due to overheating and shorting may have been the root cause. 

 

I don't understand why your compliance range stops at 220 mA if you have done the high current mod. You should have entered new values for the current sense resistors in the calibration form, which causes the compliance ranges to be updated. I believe you have to restart the GUI for those changes to take effect.

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 7:43:54 PM UTC-5 Rocko wrote:

Ok i did the test with the diode setting and I get the same results 0.005 and 0.012

Below is a picture of my power supply with the Utracer hooked up and on.  Talking about reversing the power I have no idea how that could even happen, my box I have it in is black, and red plugs for power, my banana plugs are all black and red for power.  I was at the end of the calibration when this all happened, it had been plugged in and operational for like 30 minutes or more as I was working through the calibration document.  I had just tested a couple of tubes before I started the calibration as well so I could compare to post calibration.

 

Martin, I found your calibration document:  How do I set Compliance to 200ma without typing it in?  It goes from 150 to 225?  Also, same question for the Is it goes from 0-30 to 0-60, no 0-40.

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/88f50ec4-df10-41b0-8d58-3cac8b3b09f5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Rocko]

Thank you!  I will give that device a look and get one.

I am still unclear on the calibration for me.  I cannot fully remember what I did but I tried to follow the document, I feel that maybe I blew it up during the Current Amplifiers calibration procedure since I could not select exactly what was written to select  I do not remember 100% but after aligning the 2 lines on the center I tried changing the values of Is and Ia and Compliance to see if it would alter the the position of the 2 lines on 20mA and 200V, and it did.  So I was going to ask at that time where should it be set to accomplish the best calibration possible and my Utracer died so it seemed like a low priority.

BUT, now I am hopefully going to breath new life into my Utracer and I would like to have clear instructions to follow for the Current Amplifiers calibration section because I am scared, lol.  

Here is a screen shot of some settings.  Is this where you set yours to do the calibration?  I am assuming you should have the same drop down values that I have.

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

I strongly doubt that you did anything to cause the failure. If you set the compliance at 20 mA then the right-hand side of the trace might go flat, or maybe it wouldn't appear at all. Compliance is a software current limit, so as long as you can reach the calibration current you're ok. Its purpose is to protect the uTracer and the DUT (Device Under Test) from too much current. I set up the current amp calibration exactly as described in the document posted here. I believe the range should be set so that the ~20 mA calibration current is covered but not exceeded by too much, to get the highest resolution.

At this point your tracer appears to be functional except for the negative voltage supply.

[Ihor]

I was not completely following this thread, but I recently got aware of a possible failure that can happen with the negative power supply due to low quality BD138 transistors (a problem with the negative power supply of the uTracer, where in some cases, both T2 as well as L1 became hot, and in some cases T2 even got destroyed). I got this suggestion from a user of uTracerJS who was a victim of that problem. The suggestion from Ronald was like this: 

[theold...@gmail.com]

Ihor,

 

Interesting, I don’t think I have seen this modification before. It would definitely improve the switching characteristic of T2. It would also increase the peak collector current through T1 to almost 70mA, but since it is rated for max. 500mA, that is no issue. I am not sure I understand the function of the 4K7 resistor, can you explain that for me?

 

Thanks,

Bill v

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Ihor
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 2:32 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

I was not completely following this thread, but I recently got aware of a possible failure that can happen with the negative power supply due to low quality BD138 transistors (a problem with the negative power supply of the uTracer, where in some cases, both T2 as well as L1 became hot, and in some cases T2 even got destroyed). I got this suggestion from a user of uTracerJS who was a victim of that problem. The suggestion from Ronald was like this: 

web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/81657609-490c-49e0-b774-bbb90a35ef31n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ihor]

Indeed, I think this mod is not well known (yet), but apparently is useful and mostly for the new batches of uTracer3+, which have BD138 from another manufacturer. 

Just citing Ronald: "... fortunately Dieter from Germany encountered the problem and even found a solution! On investigation it appeared that after turning off T2 the voltage across L1 swings so much positive that the emitter-base junction of T2 gets severely reverse biased..."

"...The solution that was found was to add a 100 ohm resistor over the emitter base junction of T2. An additional resistor of 4k7 greatly reduces the ringing in the negative power supply boost converter..."

[Rocko]

Martin,

I am excited that I most likely did nothing wrong.

However, I am a bit of a yes or no kind of guy when it comes to directions.  Are the values I put in my screen capture good for doing the Current Amplifiers Calibration section of your Calibration manual you wrote?  You said you set them exactly like it said in the manual, does that mean that you entered them manually (they are not in the drop down menus)?

μTracer 3+ Calibration
GUI version 3.12.6 Martin Manning 2022.03.08

Sorry if this seems obvious, but I do not like to take any chances at this point and interpret what you said the wrong way.

Rocko

[theold...@gmail.com]

Interesting. Based on this I got curious about the V6, and although the basic topology is definitely recognizable, it was obviously redesigned and should not have the same issue.

 

 

 

 

Bill v.

 

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Ihor
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 3:02 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

Indeed, I think this mod is not well known (yet), but apparently is useful and mostly for the new batches of uTracer3+, which have BD138 from another manufacturer. 

 

Just citing Ronald: "... fortunately Dieter from Germany encountered the problem and even found a solution! On investigation it appeared that after turning off T2 the voltage across L1 swings so much positive that the emitter-base junction of T2 gets severely reverse biased..."

"...The solution that was found was to add a 100 ohm resistor over the emitter base junction of T2. An additional resistor of 4k7 greatly reduces the ringing in the negative power supply boost converter..."

 

On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 20:50:55 UTC+1 theold...@gmail.com wrote:

Ihor,

 

Interesting, I don’t think I have seen this modification before. It would definitely improve the switching characteristic of T2. It would also increase the peak collector current through T1 to almost 70mA, but since it is rated for max. 500mA, that is no issue. I am not sure I understand the function of the 4K7 resistor, can you explain that for me?

 

Thanks,

Bill v

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Ihor
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 2:32 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

I was not completely following this thread, but I recently got aware of a possible failure that can happen with the negative power supply due to low quality BD138 transistors (a problem with the negative power supply of the uTracer, where in some cases, both T2 as well as L1 became hot, and in some cases T2 even got destroyed). I got this suggestion from a user of uTracerJS who was a victim of that problem. The suggestion from Ronald was like this: 

web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/81657609-490c-49e0-b774-bbb90a35ef31n%40googlegroups.com.

--

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[Rocko]

Ihor,

Would it be possible for you to link a couple of parts for the ones that are recommended to add to the Utracer from mouser or somewhere?  While I could wing it, I really like to be sure about what I am doing.  I still have not figured out the whole 1/4 watt, 1/2 watt, 1/16 watt thing and when to use them etc.  Also the accuracy of each one I usually figure tighter is better but most are 10% etc so I would love to make sure I get what I need the first time.

I just placed my order last night with mouser, downer.

Rocko

[theold...@gmail.com]

Rocko,

 

Especially based on the information offered by Ihor, I may have been a bit premature with my earlier cause assessment. My apologies.

If you like, by way of an apology, I will snail mail you the required resistors for the modification described by Ihor. I have LOTS of them. It is not easy to work with this stuff if you are still learning. It would take a few days, but you will save yourself the Mouser delivery charge. If you send me a PM (don’t send an address over open media) I will get them in the mail tomorrow morning. I know we are both in Canada, so it should not be too long. In the meanwhile you can go ahead with replacing the other parts.

 

Bill v

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Rocko
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 3:14 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

Ihor,

 

Would it be possible for you to link a couple of parts for the ones that are recommended to add to the Utracer from mouser or somewhere?  While I could wing it, I really like to be sure about what I am doing.  I still have not figured out the whole 1/4 watt, 1/2 watt, 1/16 watt thing and when to use them etc.  Also the accuracy of each one I usually figure tighter is better but most are 10% etc so I would love to make sure I get what I need the first time.

 

I just placed my order last night with mouser, downer.

 

Rocko

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 12:01:49 PM UTC-8 Ihor wrote:

Indeed, I think this mod is not well known (yet), but apparently is useful and mostly for the new batches of uTracer3+, which have BD138 from another manufacturer. 

 

Just citing Ronald: "... fortunately Dieter from Germany encountered the problem and even found a solution! On investigation it appeared that after turning off T2 the voltage across L1 swings so much positive that the emitter-base junction of T2 gets severely reverse biased..."

"...The solution that was found was to add a 100 ohm resistor over the emitter base junction of T2. An additional resistor of 4k7 greatly reduces the ringing in the negative power supply boost converter..."

 

On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 20:50:55 UTC+1 theold...@gmail.com wrote:

Ihor,

 

Interesting, I don’t think I have seen this modification before. It would definitely improve the switching characteristic of T2. It would also increase the peak collector current through T1 to almost 70mA, but since it is rated for max. 500mA, that is no issue. I am not sure I understand the function of the 4K7 resistor, can you explain that for me?

 

Thanks,

Bill v

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Ihor
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 2:32 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

I was not completely following this thread, but I recently got aware of a possible failure that can happen with the negative power supply due to low quality BD138 transistors (a problem with the negative power supply of the uTracer, where in some cases, both T2 as well as L1 became hot, and in some cases T2 even got destroyed). I got this suggestion from a user of uTracerJS who was a victim of that problem. The suggestion from Ronald was like this: 

web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/81657609-490c-49e0-b774-bbb90a35ef31n%40googlegroups.com.

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[Rocko]

Bill,

No apologies are ever needed when offering FREE help.  When the smoke cleared and I got it running I was going to say to Martin and yourself send me your addresses so I can drop ship you a bottle of wine each!

Fuck man no worries.  I appreciate the offer on the mailing the resistors.  There is a store up the street from me and I was going to call them and see if they had them.  I may have an extra one from the kit from Ronald, I just want to make sure I am looking at the right part before I phone the store and look through my pile of extra stuff.

When I call the store and I ask for a 100ohm resistor I know they will ask me a bunch of other questions and I will have to say, "No fucking idea dude,  what do you think I need please help", then i will tell him what colour it is and how big and hopefully he can figure it out, LOL?

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

Ihor, very interesting indeed. More support for the idea that Rocko's negative supply failure is not any of his doing. The OPA227's getting warm with the negative supply absent probably explains the high current he observed, and maybe they are pegged to the positive rail per my guess above. 

Rocko, The last current amp cal I ran has compliance set to 70 mA, and both range and averaging on "Auto." You are right, the high current mode has different selections. This was using Ihor's uTracer JS interface. I could go look at what I was running in Ronald's interface, but I'd have to reboot into Windows to do that. Maybe later. The bottom line is you need to choose a compliance limit that does not restrict current to below what you will see in the calibration runs. 

Ihor, I see the Ia and Is ranges in the JS interface are showing only up to 200 mA. Is that correct in light of my ~600 mA hardware limit?

[Martin Manning]

BTW, Rocko, getting your tracer running for you is its own reward, the way some people get enjoyment out of working a crossword puzzle.

[Rocko]

I was going to look at that software but thought it was a good idea to start with the original.  Maybe I should jump ship and move over immediately.

Is this the latest version of the software?

Download ver. 0.95 (build 20220718)

I think I found Ihor's website, is it Boffin's Blog?

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

Yes, that's it. I'm a Mac guy, so I like it very much. It's faster too.

[theold...@gmail.com]

😊

 

The resistors for that modification would not be critical at all, 5% or better would be fine, standard ¼ W carbon or metal film will do.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/e7cf4357-f97e-4992-96d0-5d57e209038dn%40googlegroups.com.

[theold...@gmail.com]

I would use the 5K23 for the 4K7 one; close enough.

 

Bill v.

 

From: utr...@googlegroups.com <utr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Rocko
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2022 4:24 PM
To: uTracer <utr...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

 

I have a 100 ohm extra from Ronalds kit, but no 4k7 extra.

 

I have singles of these (are any good enough or can be put in series to work): (mostly singles except for the last 2)

2k

6k8

47k

5k23

10k

12k1

470 ohm

1k

1k5

180 ohm

121k

120 ohm

1k8

1M-25

20M-25

 

Rocko

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/1b2efb10-d415-40a2-a74c-51d613e622f8n%40googlegroups.com.

[Rocko]

I have a 100 ohm extra from Ronalds kit, but no 4k7 extra.

I have singles of these (are any good enough or can be put in series to work): (mostly singles except for the last 2)

I deleted and reposted because I found a bag of these too, 4.99k ohm 1/4 watt 1%

2k

6k8

47k

5k23

10k

12k1

470 ohm

1k

1k5

180 ohm

121k

120 ohm

1k8

1M-25

20M-25

Rocko

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 1:12:24 PM UTC-8 theold...@gmail.com wrote:

😊

 

The resistors for that modification would not be critical at all, 5% or better would be fine, standard ¼ W carbon or metal film will do.

[theold...@gmail.com]

The 4.99 K would be near perfect for the replacement of the 4K7

 

Bill v.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/utracer/f8a7ef5c-6683-4ae4-ad4d-0dbb0a071a61n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ihor]

Ihor, I see the Ia and Is ranges in the JS interface are showing only up to 200 mA. Is that correct in light of my ~600 mA hardware limit?

The compliance values are automatically computed depending what is on the calibration page of uTracerJS, probably refreshing the page would help? It should show the correct values, for sure after restarting uTracer (and when the values for the sensing resistors are correct). .  

[Ihor]

I ment "restarting uTtracerJS"  :))

Even resistors of 5.2 or 6.8kOhm would do, right now there is nothing there, so any resistance will be helpful . 

[Martin Manning]

Ihor wrote: I ment "restarting uTtracerJS"  :))

After shutting everything down and restarting, I still have ranges showing 200 mA and below.

[Ihor Smal]

Hi Martin, 

Could you share the screenshot of the calibration page, so I can try to reproduce it? Also are you using the latest version? just to be sure :)  

[Ihor]

I just tested the version from the website and it works as it should. I am pretty sure you have an older version Martin:) 

[Martin Manning]

Hmm. Just got the current one from your website, same result. The pulldowns under Ia and Is (where Auto is shown) top out at 200 mA.

[Ihor]

Now I see what you mean, I was only thinking about the dropdown menu with the compliance. Indeed, the Ia Is ranges were not implemented before for those modified uTracer3+, so I just did it and put the new version 0.96 on the website. Please take a look and let me know if there are any other inconsistencies!

[Martin Manning]

Yep, I have 600 mA range on Ia and Is now, thanks!

On this negative voltage supply problem, was that posted somewhere? I don't see anything related on Ronald's web site. 

[Martin Manning]

PS I see that the extra tick box next to voltage correction is now gone. Is the iteration to get actual test voltages to match the set voltages working? Seems like I have to turn voltage correction off (box not ticked) to get a plot where the measurement points match the set voltages.

[Ihor Smal]

Hi Martin,

That checkbox moved here (see the screenshot), and by default it is disabled. 

Cheers, 

Ihor

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[Rocko]

Thanks everyone for helping out.  Parts are on the way and will report back when I am fully functional again.

UtracerJS, my god you can even change the colours to match what you have built, there are built in tube configurations, it links directly to a searchable tube data base, WOW.  

I have re downloaded the latest version 0.96 from yesterday.  One thing in your posting about UtracerJS, maybe have 2 download links for Martin's Calibration manual, the old one and the new one.  Maybe the old one is not needed, I have no idea.  But the link goes to the 2013 version.

Ihor, Is this what I use for the high current version of Utracer 3+?  I have not read your entire posting on UtracerJS yet (working on it), but thought I would confirm.

I should use:

Version:        uTracer+ (400V)         

Anode Rsense:  6 Ω

Screen Rsense: 6 Ω

Grid Rsense: 4.7 Ω

Also, I think this whole issue should have an addendum or something mentioned somewhere if you are using certain parts.  I am definitely not the guy to do this, but someone should.  For me, I probably would have emailed Ronald about my Utracer melt down at some point but I do not know how that would have gone.

All I can say is, without you guys I would have had a boat anchor and it would have ended up in the bin most likely.  I will say no more as to not jinx it.

Cheers,

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

That's the way I'm running it. Ihor can comment, but I believe the Grid Rsense is for only for uT6. uT3 can only measure grid current with its screen channel (so triodes only), and you need to construct an add-on circuit which is described in Ronald's Lab Notebook pages (PCB's are available from third parties). That circuit is supported by the uT3 GUI and Ihor's uTracerJS version, and permits positive grid bias to +5V. 

The newer cal procedure is a cleaned-up version. Maybe it needs another refresh, for high-current users ;^)

[Ihor]

Indeed, those values would be correct

Anode Rsense:  6 Ω

Screen Rsense: 6 Ω

Grid Rsense: 4.7 Ω

Grid resistance does not matter because it is used for uTracer v.6 with Positive Grid Voltage extension board. I will probably make it disabled in the webinterface for uTracer 3 in the future releases. 

By the way, what is the latest version of the calibration procedure from Martin?:) The one that I have is dated by 2022.03.08 

Cheers, 

Ihor

 

On Tuesday, 6 December 2022 at 18:55:58 UTC+1 

[Ihor]

I just checked, so disabling is already implemented, one cannot enter/set any value for Grid Resistance if the uTracer version is not 6 :)  

[Craig Sawyers]

Could someone please change the title for this long and winding thread?

It is way back that the Roetest V10 was even mentioned.

Craig

------ Original Message ------

From "Ihor" <iste...@gmail.com>

To "uTracer" <utr...@googlegroups.com>

Date 06/12/2022 21:11:40

Subject Re: Roetest V10 vs Utracer 6P3S-E

I just checked, so disabling is already implemented, one cannot enter/set any value for Grid Resistance if the uTracer version is not 6 :)  

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[Rocko]

Craig, 

I agree the title should be changed to something like:

"How do I.....Oh no my Utracer 3+ just died, BD138 issue and fix?"

Otherwise, I got my parts and put them in and it is alive!

The "high hissing sound" that Ronald mentions in his construction manual in Part 7. Negative Power Supply - Testing (pg 28) is back again now that the new parts are in.

I completed the Calibration again with Ronalds Software without incident, and I transferred the values to UtracerJS to try.  However there are a couple of things I did notice.

1.  Since I do not have a setting for Compliance 200mA when I try to enter that in manually I get a "Run-time error '9' Subscript out of range", and the program crashes.  (I will not enter values again, just use what is in the drop down menus.)

2.  When calibrating the "Current Amplifiers" the manual says set Ia and Is at 0-40 and Compliance at 200.  Since I cannot set those values with the High Current mode on, (I used 0-60 and 600), when the 2 lines are on 20 and 200 I switch to like 0-60 and 225mA my lines move and are no longer on 20 and 200.  So, should I put the Utracer in regular utracer3+ mode (A18, S18) when doing this calibration, or what setting should be used with the high current mode active (A6, S6) to achieve the optimal calibration?

Ihor (UtraverJS), 

I have noticed that if I ABORT a measurement the High Current LED on the Utracer does not go out and I need to power off/on the utracer.  I ran the Grid Bias Voltage test and when I ABORTED, the voltage stayed at -40 on my DVM until I turned the Utracer off/on.  I am using windows 11 with a USB to Serial Cable.

Rocko

[Martin Manning]

Great to hear it's up and working! You should now be protected against another BD138 failure too.  I do not hear any significant noise when my tracer is idling, or, if it is there it is out of my hearing range. It does chirp noticeably when making measurements. 

Unless you burn the board up, anything can be fixed. Besides, it's not nearly big or heavy enough to make a decent anchor.

Re 1., Yes, just pick values off the pull-down that will cover the required ranges.

Re 2., Same answer, pick values that will cover the required ranges, or pick "Auto," in which case the software will set the ranges on its own.

Be aware that test results may drift until the parts reach thermal equilibrium. My tracer takes 40 minutes or so to settle in, and the measured current on both channels drifts down about a half a milliamp over that time. That might be part of what you are seeing when you change the range, or perhaps a different range has different resolution, and you are seeing some digital step. How much shift are you seeing when this happens?

[Ihor]

1.  Since I do not have a setting for Compliance 200mA when I try to enter that in manually I get a "Run-time error '9' Subscript out of range", and the program crashes.  (I will not enter values again, just use what is in the drop down menus.)

I assume you were talking about the original windows software, because in uTracer you cannot "enter" the values yourself, probably only if you are using some non-standard web browser. The new version of uTracer now works good with all the higher compliances and Ia/Is ranges, so you can try that. 

Ihor (UtraverJS), 

I have noticed that if I ABORT a measurement the High Current LED on the Utracer does not go out and I need to power off/on the utracer.  I ran the Grid Bias Voltage test and when I ABORTED, the voltage stayed at -40 on my DVM until I turned the Utracer off/on.  I am using windows 11 with a USB to Serial Cable.

I cannot test it at the moment, but in all the previous tests Abort button worked correctly. Are you aborting with a button or just quitting the interface by closing the terminal window. Also after the Abort you can normally start the new test. Could you see if you can start a new measurements, then High voltage should go down, and also say if it is reproducible, so the voltage always stays after you press Abort button on the main webpage. Also, when you press Abort you should see the sequence of commands in the terminal window and the last one which lowers the voltages has a code 300000000000000000. You can also copy the couple of last lines here, but probably also in the uTracerJS thread, for convenience. 

 

[Rocko]

Ihor,

In Utracer V3.12.6 is the one I was manually entering the value of 200 into and getting the error.

In UtracerJS 0.96 (build 20221206), yes I cannot enter anything I can pick from the drop down menu only for Compliance 598, 521, 452, 382, 313, 235, 138, 70, off !!!.

It is when I press the red Abort button that this happens.  Yes, if I start another test it will start another test.  However, when I press abort and leave it the measuring voltages remain on the pins until I power cycle the Utracer board, or start another test and let it complete.

Rocko

[Ihor]

I do not have a possibility to test it with my real uTracer right now, only in two weeks. Probably someone who uses uTracerJS can briefly check if that happens. I am pretty sure that after aborting the High Voltage is not staying there (because I saw the LED going off) but I have never measured if the negative voltage stays there at the Vgrid connector. The high voltage does go down to 0?   

[Martin Manning]

Hi Ihor, Trying to replicate the above hang on abort in uTJS. For the current amp cal it completes the traces very quickly. I was going to try the boost converter cal which includes a 5 sec delay, but I can't find a place to input a delay in uTJS. Is it there somewhere and I'm just not seeing it?

[Ihor]

Hi Martin, 

No, there is no such option in uTracerJS, to set the delays as in the calibration procedure. I was not thinking of implementing it before, basically assuming that the new users of uTracerJS will be coming from Ronal's software, where they already got all the calibration values :) 

I think to replicate the problem, it does not matter if it is a calibration procedure or just a standard tube test. As far as I understood, the problem is that after aborting the test, Vg stays at its last value (correct me if I am wrong). So, for example running a simple test with Va=Vs from 0 to 200V and Vg=-5V or so, and aborting with Abort button somewhere at Va=100V should leave Vg at -5V and not 0V. The high voltage I am pretty sure will go back to 0V. The test procedure is just with resistors, so does not matter, it can also be done with resistors. 

[Ihor]

Just to have the problems description here, this is what was reported "I have noticed that if I ABORT a measurement the High Current LED on the Utracer does not go out and I need to power off/on the utracer.  I ran the Grid Bias Voltage test and when I ABORTED, the voltage stayed at -40 on my DVM until I turned the Utracer off/on.  I am using windows 11 with a USB to Serial Cable."

So actually is says that HV LED also stays ON after Abort. I do not remember noticing that in my real experiments, and I am pretty sure that all the commands are send properly to uTracer but if it is reproducible by some other users then I will take a look at it next week. 

[Martin Manning]

I added a bunch more points to the current amp cal, started it, and aborted in the middle of the sweep. I get the same result as described, i.e. the trace stops, HV LED stays on, Vg stays on (-5V in my case). There is no HV present. Starting another measurement (without reset) and letting it go to completion, everything looks normal.

[Ihor]

Thanks for the test! So apparently it is reproducible and it is something in the code. I will see if the finishing of the test is done properly, otherwise I can also force to make one more measurement with zero voltages in the end after pressing the abort button, so it is easily solvable, just have to find a bit of time :) 

Ihor

On Sunday, 11 December 2022 at 19:59:40 UTC+1 =

[Martin Manning]

Great! The delay function is useful for things besides than the calibration, including traces where heater voltage is stepped, and when the uT is used for reforming capacitors.

[Ihor]

Sounds good, I will take a look at it as well then, it is also not so difficult to implement but just things should be introduced in multiple files, so I do not want to do it in a hurry. 

Meanwhile I implemented the correct Aborting, so feel free to test and see if everything works as it should. I tired on my arduino simulator of uTracer and it sends correct codes. You can just redownload the uTracer from the website, the version stays the same, but the build is changes to 20221212 (just in case you want to be sure that you updated properly, you should see that number on the webpage).   

Ihor

[Martin Manning]

Hmm. Still says Download ver. 0.96 (build 20221206)

[Martin Manning]

Ok, downloaded and tested again, works fine now. Abort cancels the trace and voltages go to idle state.

[Martin Manning]

Back to the negative supply failure, I could go in and add those two resistors to my tracer, but it's been running for over 9 years without any issue there. Maybe it's a case of some low quality parts floating around? 

[Ihor]

On Sunday, 11 December 2022 at 23:44:45 UTC+1 mman...@fuse.net wrote:

Back to the negative supply failure, I could go in and add those two resistors to my tracer, but it's been running for over 9 years without any issue there. Maybe it's a case of some low quality parts floating around? 

 It looks like it is mostly an issue with the new batch of transistors, but it just means that the old batch is more robust or has better specs. I also have not experienced any problems, but at the same time the fixes are conceptually correct and added to avoid rare accidental cases, so it is probably good to add them:). In my case, the main boards is almost "integrated" in the case, so it is difficult to access the bottom part to make that mode. It will take me about 1-2 hours to disassemble and assemble everything (the wiring) so I have not implemented it yet:)   

[Martin Manning]

My tracer is much easier to get into, so I went ahead and added the resistors. The first Thing I looked at was the Vneg display, which was unchanged, and then I noticed  that the idle current had dropped a bit. My bench supply only has 10 mA resolution on the display, but it now shows 250 mA instead of 260. I get the same 270 mA when I switch on the shorts and leakage detection circuit, so the reduction is something less than 10 mA. So, a bonus! The negative voltage supply is now more efficient!