Lyric Ranger
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Electrosaurus
Oct 3, 2011, 1:39:35 AM10/3/11
to utahEVi...@googlegroups.com
My girlfriend and I just bought a Lyric Ranger (RNG3RX). I am still driving the E-bikeboard S500. The Ranger is pretty cool, it is very fast and it has a stable platform. However, we are a little unhappy about our purchase. Cy, I hope you read this and can work something out with us.
Firstly, the motor does not sound right, or feel right. The torque is not consistent like my ancient S500 still is to this day. It sounds like it is going to explode. I am wondering if it has brushes? Will this reduce the lifespan of the motor? Why does the brand new RNG3RX sound like an 18th century steam engine while my 4-year old bikeboard with 10000 miles sounds like Iron-Man's armor? Is this normal? How many miles can I expect to get out of our RNG3RX? Is there a warranty? I have a bad feeling about this machine.
Brakes: The discs are grinding a lot, too. How can I sure them up?
Headlight: We discovered pretty quickly that the new headlight is a battery-leech. We are also concerned that since it is not LED it will burn out faster and cost more to replace.
Tires: The front tire looks to be pretty resilient, but the back tires have a paper-thin tube inside the tread. How much does it cost to replace the tires on the RNG3RX? When will you have that flat-free tire set for street use? Will it be like the Tweel?
Batteries: Why does my $1200 bikeboard have a diagnostic screen with percentage readouts, mAh status, Amps status, charge cycle counter, and a USB port while my $2550 lyric does not??????? I don't care if it costs another hundred dollars, I want a real screen. After having a screen, the 5 LEDs are kinds of a slap in the face. I do not like not knowing. It's worth a few hundred dollars to say, "I have 73% power left" rather than "Uh.. . I'm somewhere between 60% and 100%." On top of that, I have come to know EXACTLY how much power I require to go places. For example, to go to school and come back home, that requires 55% of my battery power. On your new batteries, I could never figure that out, and even if I did, how do I know the 4 lights means 55% or 45%? 45% will not get me to school and back, and since I don't know that, I might have to miss class one day because I didn't want to risk it. What I am trying to say is: THE SCREEN IS WORTH THE COST, GO BACK TO IT. I Implore you to see reason.
Alarm and Remote: What if I like to just have a key to turn on my lyric? Can I "hotwire" a switch to bypass the wireless circuit? Can I make that incessant screaming stop every time I turn on or off my Lyric? I am a college student, I need to be quiet for my peers when I leave in the morning.
Brake Light: Great feature, but what if I want to be stealthy in the night? What if I am low on power in a stop-n-go situation? It might not be much, but with electric, every electron counts.
Water. I was told repeatedly that the waterproofing was significantly greater in the Lyric. This is not what I have found. I see a splash-guard and a new arrangement of wires. I bought the Lyric under the impression I could go out in a Tsunami if I absolutely had to, that way I could get rid of my car completely. I am still skeptical.
Haggling: The receipt was printed as "Retail Price: 2385.00 | Savings 0.05" Does this mean Lyric rewards hagglers like car dealerships do? Did I get ripped off for trusting the salesman at the dealership? I hope you are not punishing the honorable patrons who trust you and reward the dishonorable hagglers who try to rob you.
Salesman: Most of these concerns stem from the lack of knowledge of our salesman. He either didn't know most things or didn't seem to care. I could have said, "can my new lyric drive up Everest and survive a 90000-foot fall into a pile of boulders?" and he would have said "Uh... probably... Yeah."
Folding: Have you guys every actually tried to move a folded RangerX. Holy crap. And that salesman gave me some bad advice on how to do it. I picked it up the way he said, and it did a frontflip and I nearly dropped it. Aside from that, it is still too big to fit inside any of the sedans we have tried to put it in. It is too tall, and too wide. Meanwhile my bikeboard, which does not fold up at all, fits just fine. The manual only gets you to the folded state, it says nothing that we can see about actually carrying it. How are you supposed to carry it, anyway?
Mudflaps: One word for those: junk. I'm sorry to be rude, the other aspects of the RNG3RX may be subjective, but in this case I have to say that those mud-flaps suck.
I have a pocketful of other concerns, but it has been a long day and it's time to draw this day closed.
Firstly, the motor does not sound right, or feel right. The torque is not consistent like my ancient S500 still is to this day. It sounds like it is going to explode. I am wondering if it has brushes? Will this reduce the lifespan of the motor? Why does the brand new RNG3RX sound like an 18th century steam engine while my 4-year old bikeboard with 10000 miles sounds like Iron-Man's armor? Is this normal? How many miles can I expect to get out of our RNG3RX? Is there a warranty? I have a bad feeling about this machine.
Brakes: The discs are grinding a lot, too. How can I sure them up?
Headlight: We discovered pretty quickly that the new headlight is a battery-leech. We are also concerned that since it is not LED it will burn out faster and cost more to replace.
Tires: The front tire looks to be pretty resilient, but the back tires have a paper-thin tube inside the tread. How much does it cost to replace the tires on the RNG3RX? When will you have that flat-free tire set for street use? Will it be like the Tweel?
Batteries: Why does my $1200 bikeboard have a diagnostic screen with percentage readouts, mAh status, Amps status, charge cycle counter, and a USB port while my $2550 lyric does not??????? I don't care if it costs another hundred dollars, I want a real screen. After having a screen, the 5 LEDs are kinds of a slap in the face. I do not like not knowing. It's worth a few hundred dollars to say, "I have 73% power left" rather than "Uh.. . I'm somewhere between 60% and 100%." On top of that, I have come to know EXACTLY how much power I require to go places. For example, to go to school and come back home, that requires 55% of my battery power. On your new batteries, I could never figure that out, and even if I did, how do I know the 4 lights means 55% or 45%? 45% will not get me to school and back, and since I don't know that, I might have to miss class one day because I didn't want to risk it. What I am trying to say is: THE SCREEN IS WORTH THE COST, GO BACK TO IT. I Implore you to see reason.
Alarm and Remote: What if I like to just have a key to turn on my lyric? Can I "hotwire" a switch to bypass the wireless circuit? Can I make that incessant screaming stop every time I turn on or off my Lyric? I am a college student, I need to be quiet for my peers when I leave in the morning.
Brake Light: Great feature, but what if I want to be stealthy in the night? What if I am low on power in a stop-n-go situation? It might not be much, but with electric, every electron counts.
Water. I was told repeatedly that the waterproofing was significantly greater in the Lyric. This is not what I have found. I see a splash-guard and a new arrangement of wires. I bought the Lyric under the impression I could go out in a Tsunami if I absolutely had to, that way I could get rid of my car completely. I am still skeptical.
Haggling: The receipt was printed as "Retail Price: 2385.00 | Savings 0.05" Does this mean Lyric rewards hagglers like car dealerships do? Did I get ripped off for trusting the salesman at the dealership? I hope you are not punishing the honorable patrons who trust you and reward the dishonorable hagglers who try to rob you.
Salesman: Most of these concerns stem from the lack of knowledge of our salesman. He either didn't know most things or didn't seem to care. I could have said, "can my new lyric drive up Everest and survive a 90000-foot fall into a pile of boulders?" and he would have said "Uh... probably... Yeah."
Folding: Have you guys every actually tried to move a folded RangerX. Holy crap. And that salesman gave me some bad advice on how to do it. I picked it up the way he said, and it did a frontflip and I nearly dropped it. Aside from that, it is still too big to fit inside any of the sedans we have tried to put it in. It is too tall, and too wide. Meanwhile my bikeboard, which does not fold up at all, fits just fine. The manual only gets you to the folded state, it says nothing that we can see about actually carrying it. How are you supposed to carry it, anyway?
Mudflaps: One word for those: junk. I'm sorry to be rude, the other aspects of the RNG3RX may be subjective, but in this case I have to say that those mud-flaps suck.
I have a pocketful of other concerns, but it has been a long day and it's time to draw this day closed.
David Dymaxion
Oct 4, 2011, 1:24:11 AM10/4/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
"8-years and more than 130 BYU engineering students, I’m done”
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705391881/Electric-car-built-by-BYU-students-set-world-land-speed-record.html
[image] Electric car built by BYU students set world land speed record
By Lori Prichard Oct 3 2011
BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS — A nearly 8-year quest by more than 130 BYU
engineering students has ended with a world record.
On a cool, crisp September morning at the Bonneville Salt Flats,
BYU's electric car broke a land speed record averaging 155.8 mph. The
fastest qualifying run clocked in at 175 miles per hour.
“This is a wonderful closure to 31 years of teaching at BYU and many
projects,” Perry Carter, who just retired as an associate professor,
said after the record was certified. “But this is the one that takes
the cake. I’m done.”
[image Jaren Wilkey/BYU
http://static.deseretnews.com/images/article/sidebar/615404/BYUs-Electric-Vehicle-Racing-Team-set-a-world.jpg
BYU's Electric Vehicle Racing Team set a world record of 155 mph in
the E1 class on Sept. 14, 2011 at the World of Speed on the
Bonneville Salt Flats.]
The group of BYU students and professors built a streamliner vehicle
using a long, slender shape and enclosed wheels to reduce air
resistance. The car, named “Electric Blue,” competed in the E1-class,
which includes cars weighing less than 1,100 pounds.
"No previous record in that class. No other vehicles in that class,”
Carter said. “We're breaking new ground."
The results astonished the team and its captain Kelly Hales.
"It's an unusual environment. You can't go test a car anywhere. You
can't go out and just over 300 mph on the freeway,” Hales explained.
“It's hard to find a place to test."
“This is like Christmas morning,” said Jeff Baxter, a former student
captain on the project who returned to Utah to witness the record-setting
runs, “but like five Christmas mornings — or seven Christmas mornings.”
Last year, the team did test the car a bit. They completed a
qualifying run at 139 mph. However, on the second required run, the
car rolled. The driver was OK, and the team went back to the drawing
board. "It was a learning experience,” Hales said. “Of course, it was
disappointing."
“We now have a record,” Carter said. “Whatever we did, we wanted to
go home with a record and not a pile of parts."
Because they believe the streamliner will go faster, they will go
back for another run. The field is wide open, since Electric Blue is
the only car weighing in at under 1,100 pounds, and Carter said he
doesn't know of any others being built right now.
In the meantime, Electric Blue sits in the Crabtree Technology
Building on the BYU campus. []
...
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/state-and-regional/utah/article_b109cc8c-c0ea-5e25-b9ea-a650f5ae1377.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705391881/Electric-car-built-by-BYU-students-set-world-land-speed-record.html
[image] Electric car built by BYU students set world land speed record
By Lori Prichard Oct 3 2011
BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS — A nearly 8-year quest by more than 130 BYU
engineering students has ended with a world record.
On a cool, crisp September morning at the Bonneville Salt Flats,
BYU's electric car broke a land speed record averaging 155.8 mph. The
fastest qualifying run clocked in at 175 miles per hour.
“This is a wonderful closure to 31 years of teaching at BYU and many
projects,” Perry Carter, who just retired as an associate professor,
said after the record was certified. “But this is the one that takes
the cake. I’m done.”
[image Jaren Wilkey/BYU
http://static.deseretnews.com/images/article/sidebar/615404/BYUs-Electric-Vehicle-Racing-Team-set-a-world.jpg
BYU's Electric Vehicle Racing Team set a world record of 155 mph in
the E1 class on Sept. 14, 2011 at the World of Speed on the
Bonneville Salt Flats.]
The group of BYU students and professors built a streamliner vehicle
using a long, slender shape and enclosed wheels to reduce air
resistance. The car, named “Electric Blue,” competed in the E1-class,
which includes cars weighing less than 1,100 pounds.
"No previous record in that class. No other vehicles in that class,”
Carter said. “We're breaking new ground."
The results astonished the team and its captain Kelly Hales.
"It's an unusual environment. You can't go test a car anywhere. You
can't go out and just over 300 mph on the freeway,” Hales explained.
“It's hard to find a place to test."
“This is like Christmas morning,” said Jeff Baxter, a former student
captain on the project who returned to Utah to witness the record-setting
runs, “but like five Christmas mornings — or seven Christmas mornings.”
Last year, the team did test the car a bit. They completed a
qualifying run at 139 mph. However, on the second required run, the
car rolled. The driver was OK, and the team went back to the drawing
board. "It was a learning experience,” Hales said. “Of course, it was
disappointing."
“We now have a record,” Carter said. “Whatever we did, we wanted to
go home with a record and not a pile of parts."
Because they believe the streamliner will go faster, they will go
back for another run. The field is wide open, since Electric Blue is
the only car weighing in at under 1,100 pounds, and Carter said he
doesn't know of any others being built right now.
In the meantime, Electric Blue sits in the Crabtree Technology
Building on the BYU campus. []
...
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/state-and-regional/utah/article_b109cc8c-c0ea-5e25-b9ea-a650f5ae1377.html
Kelly Hales
Oct 4, 2011, 1:39:26 AM10/4/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Beat me to the punch David!
For another piece with the video off the six o'clock news check out ksl.com:
The story was just released by the school this morning. Been doing interviews all afternoon. We have the rumblings of returning next year to push the record some.
On another note, Bill and Eva Dube of Killacycle fame are on the salt right now with the KillaJoule, now running a very powerful AC drive. Watch their facebook page for updates.
Regards,
Kelly Hales
BYU Streamliner Team Captain
Electrosaurus
Oct 4, 2011, 3:10:07 PM10/4/11
to UtahEVInterest
Lyric forwarded their response, if any are interested, here's what
they wrote to me:
Here are the responses from Walter. Walter is the founder and CTO for
LYRIC International (formerly Bikeboard). He is German so bare with
the typos. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks,
>> My girlfriend and I just bought a Lyric Ranger (RNG3RX). I am still driving the E-bikeboard S500. The Ranger is pretty cool, it is very fast and it has a stable platform. However, we are a little unhappy about our purchase. Cy, I hope you read this and can work something out with us.
>>
>> Firstly, the motor does not sound right, or feel right. The torque is not consistent like my ancient S500 still is to this day. It sounds like it is going to explode. I am wondering if it has brushes? Will this reduce the lifespan of the motor? Why does the brand new RNG3RX sound like an 18th century steam engine while my 4-year old bikeboard with 10000 miles sounds like Iron-Man's armor? Is this normal? How many miles can I expect to get out of our RNG3RX? Is there a warranty? I have a bad feeling about this machine.
This is a geared motor which have much more torque than the non geared
for your S500. If it makes to much noise, we can service the motor and
exchange the grease.
>>
>> Brakes: The discs are grinding a lot, too. How can I sure them up?
Yes, they can be adjusted, so they are not grinding.
>>
>> Headlight: We discovered pretty quickly that the new headlight is a battery-leech. We are also concerned that since it is not LED it will burn out faster and cost more to replace.
You have a halogen light which is approved for Motorbike. This new
light is much more safety than the light from the S500. It is very
high quality and won't burn out fast.
>>
>> Tires: The front tire looks to be pretty resilient, but the back tires have a paper-thin tube inside the tread. How much does it cost to replace the tires on the RNG3RX? When will you have that flat-free tire set for street use? Will it be like the Tweel?
Our normal tube are not paper tin, so maybe you have one with a defect
tube. They are pretty good. The cost for replacement tubes
is ....... . We are working on flat free tire, but they are not ready
to sell yet. The flat free tire we have on the golf model is working
on the fairway, but on the street you won't feel comfortable with this
tire, since you feel very little stone.
>> Batteries: Why does my $1200 bikeboard have a diagnostic screen with percentage readouts, mAh status, Amps status, charge cycle counter, and a USB port while my $2550 lyric does not??????? I don't care if it costs another hundred dollars, I want a real screen. After having a screen, the 5 LEDs are kinds of a slap in the face. I do not like not knowing. It's worth a few hundred dollars to say, "I have 73% power left" rather than "Uh.. . I'm somewhere between 60% and 100%." On top of that, I have come to know EXACTLY how much power I require to go places. For example, to go to school and come back home, that requires 55% of my battery power. On your new batteries, I could never figure that out, and even if I did, how do I know the 4 lights means 55% or 45%? 45% will not get me to school and back, and since I don't know that, I might have to miss class one day because I didn't want to risk it. What I am trying to say is: THE SCREEN IS WORTH THE COST, GO BACK TO IT. I Implore you to see reason.
We had a lot of problem with this LCD screen. You are very luck that
yours is working good. We changed to LED because we will offer a
display on the handle bar for next year.
>> Alarm and Remote: What if I like to just have a key to turn on my lyric? Can I "hotwire" a switch to bypass the wireless circuit? Can I make that incessant screaming stop every time I turn on or off my Lyric? I am a college student, I need to be quiet for my peers when I leave in the morning.
We can offer you a key lock below the carrier as option, or we can
explain how to hot wire it.
range noticeable. If you don't want it, you can cut the blue wire on
the back, but you will be liable for that.
>> Water. I was told repeatedly that the waterproofing was significantly greater in the Lyric. This is not what I have found. I see a splash-guard and a new arrangement of wires. I bought the Lyric under the impression I could go out in a Tsunami if I absolutely had to, that way I could get rid of my car completely. I am still skeptical.
You can ride the LYRIC in the rain, but not in Tsunami. We still
working on the LYRIC Submarine ;-)
>> Haggling: The receipt was printed as "Retail Price: 2385.00 | Savings 0.05" Does this mean Lyric rewards hagglers like car dealerships do? Did I get ripped off for trusting the salesman at the dealership? I hope you are not punishing the honorable patrons who trust you and reward the dishonorable hagglers who try to rob you.
>>
>> Salesman: Most of these concerns stem from the lack of knowledge of our salesman. He either didn't know most things or didn't seem to care. I could have said, "can my new lyric drive up Everest and survive a 90000-foot fall into a pile of boulders?" and he would have said "Uh... probably... Yeah."
>>
>> Folding: Have you guys every actually tried to move a folded RangerX. Holy crap. And that salesman gave me some bad advice on how to do it. I picked it up the way he said, and it did a frontflip and I nearly dropped it. Aside from that, it is still too big to fit inside any of the sedans we have tried to put it in. It is too tall, and too wide. Meanwhile my bikeboard, which does not fold up at all, fits just fine. The manual only gets you to the folded state, it says nothing that we can see about actually carrying it. How are you supposed to carry it, anyway?
There will be a video soon online where you see how to fold it. The
RNG3RX is much bigger than the S500 you have. If you want to have a
more handy one, we recommend the RUN3RX. We also offer in future a
belt which hold it together when folded.
>>
>> Mudflaps: One word for those: junk. I'm sorry to be rude, the other aspects of the RNG3RX may be subjective, but in this case I have to say that those mud-flaps suck.
Please specify more detailed why it is junk? We like to improve, but
we also need objective proposals how to.
>>
>> I have a pocketful of other concerns, but it has been a long day and it's time to draw this day closed.
Please let us know, we take every concern very important and will
improve as long it is feasible to do.
they wrote to me:
Here are the responses from Walter. Walter is the founder and CTO for
LYRIC International (formerly Bikeboard). He is German so bare with
the typos. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks,
>> My girlfriend and I just bought a Lyric Ranger (RNG3RX). I am still driving the E-bikeboard S500. The Ranger is pretty cool, it is very fast and it has a stable platform. However, we are a little unhappy about our purchase. Cy, I hope you read this and can work something out with us.
>>
>> Firstly, the motor does not sound right, or feel right. The torque is not consistent like my ancient S500 still is to this day. It sounds like it is going to explode. I am wondering if it has brushes? Will this reduce the lifespan of the motor? Why does the brand new RNG3RX sound like an 18th century steam engine while my 4-year old bikeboard with 10000 miles sounds like Iron-Man's armor? Is this normal? How many miles can I expect to get out of our RNG3RX? Is there a warranty? I have a bad feeling about this machine.
for your S500. If it makes to much noise, we can service the motor and
exchange the grease.
>>
>> Brakes: The discs are grinding a lot, too. How can I sure them up?
>>
>> Headlight: We discovered pretty quickly that the new headlight is a battery-leech. We are also concerned that since it is not LED it will burn out faster and cost more to replace.
light is much more safety than the light from the S500. It is very
high quality and won't burn out fast.
>>
>> Tires: The front tire looks to be pretty resilient, but the back tires have a paper-thin tube inside the tread. How much does it cost to replace the tires on the RNG3RX? When will you have that flat-free tire set for street use? Will it be like the Tweel?
tube. They are pretty good. The cost for replacement tubes
is ....... . We are working on flat free tire, but they are not ready
to sell yet. The flat free tire we have on the golf model is working
on the fairway, but on the street you won't feel comfortable with this
tire, since you feel very little stone.
>> Batteries: Why does my $1200 bikeboard have a diagnostic screen with percentage readouts, mAh status, Amps status, charge cycle counter, and a USB port while my $2550 lyric does not??????? I don't care if it costs another hundred dollars, I want a real screen. After having a screen, the 5 LEDs are kinds of a slap in the face. I do not like not knowing. It's worth a few hundred dollars to say, "I have 73% power left" rather than "Uh.. . I'm somewhere between 60% and 100%." On top of that, I have come to know EXACTLY how much power I require to go places. For example, to go to school and come back home, that requires 55% of my battery power. On your new batteries, I could never figure that out, and even if I did, how do I know the 4 lights means 55% or 45%? 45% will not get me to school and back, and since I don't know that, I might have to miss class one day because I didn't want to risk it. What I am trying to say is: THE SCREEN IS WORTH THE COST, GO BACK TO IT. I Implore you to see reason.
yours is working good. We changed to LED because we will offer a
display on the handle bar for next year.
>> Alarm and Remote: What if I like to just have a key to turn on my lyric? Can I "hotwire" a switch to bypass the wireless circuit? Can I make that incessant screaming stop every time I turn on or off my Lyric? I am a college student, I need to be quiet for my peers when I leave in the morning.
explain how to hot wire it.
>>
>> Brake Light: Great feature, but what if I want to be stealthy in the night? What if I am low on power in a stop-n-go situation? It might not be much, but with electric, every electron counts.
This is a safety feature. The power is so little, it won't affect the
>> Brake Light: Great feature, but what if I want to be stealthy in the night? What if I am low on power in a stop-n-go situation? It might not be much, but with electric, every electron counts.
range noticeable. If you don't want it, you can cut the blue wire on
the back, but you will be liable for that.
>> Water. I was told repeatedly that the waterproofing was significantly greater in the Lyric. This is not what I have found. I see a splash-guard and a new arrangement of wires. I bought the Lyric under the impression I could go out in a Tsunami if I absolutely had to, that way I could get rid of my car completely. I am still skeptical.
working on the LYRIC Submarine ;-)
>> Haggling: The receipt was printed as "Retail Price: 2385.00 | Savings 0.05" Does this mean Lyric rewards hagglers like car dealerships do? Did I get ripped off for trusting the salesman at the dealership? I hope you are not punishing the honorable patrons who trust you and reward the dishonorable hagglers who try to rob you.
>>
>> Salesman: Most of these concerns stem from the lack of knowledge of our salesman. He either didn't know most things or didn't seem to care. I could have said, "can my new lyric drive up Everest and survive a 90000-foot fall into a pile of boulders?" and he would have said "Uh... probably... Yeah."
>>
>> Folding: Have you guys every actually tried to move a folded RangerX. Holy crap. And that salesman gave me some bad advice on how to do it. I picked it up the way he said, and it did a frontflip and I nearly dropped it. Aside from that, it is still too big to fit inside any of the sedans we have tried to put it in. It is too tall, and too wide. Meanwhile my bikeboard, which does not fold up at all, fits just fine. The manual only gets you to the folded state, it says nothing that we can see about actually carrying it. How are you supposed to carry it, anyway?
RNG3RX is much bigger than the S500 you have. If you want to have a
more handy one, we recommend the RUN3RX. We also offer in future a
belt which hold it together when folded.
>>
>> Mudflaps: One word for those: junk. I'm sorry to be rude, the other aspects of the RNG3RX may be subjective, but in this case I have to say that those mud-flaps suck.
we also need objective proposals how to.
>>
>> I have a pocketful of other concerns, but it has been a long day and it's time to draw this day closed.
improve as long it is feasible to do.
David Dymaxion
Oct 5, 2011, 1:46:42 AM10/5/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Go to about 1:04:00 and about 1:09:00 to see a helicopter video of our own Bill Dennis drag racing.
Kevin Young
Oct 6, 2011, 4:29:48 PM10/6/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
That kind of response is very encouraging--in most cases you would never hear back or they would brush off your concerns, but here the concerns were addressed quickly from someone who knows what they are talking about. The product may not be as good as you want, but it sounds like they are committed to making it better over time and are open to suggestions.
As to the geared motor having "much more torque," I wonder if you had noticed that to be the case. Does it climb hills better than your Bikeboard?
~Kevin
Adam
Oct 7, 2011, 12:51:02 PM10/7/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
I cannot type a resounding enough YES. It, and I am not misleading you when I say this, but it does not even act as though it is going uphill. The power of the Rng3r is maniacal compared to my bikeboard. People tend to stare when I pass on the bikeboard, but the Rng3r in speed 3 with turbo registers an obvious look of stun on passing faces.
HOWEVER, the expense to the battery is not even worth it. You can deplete you battery within an hour. Note that I am not using the turbo all the time, as the manual warns to only use it for 3 minutes at a time. Without the turbo active, 3rd speed still climbs hills very easily, but it is noticeably slower.
Also observed, the torque is rather low between 0 and 1 mph. I know that sounds silly, but if you are stopped on a steep hill and try to accelerate upward, you have to use turbo or full throttle to get started. Once you hit about 1mph the thing takes off like a rocket.
At this time, I like the Lyric, the company, and their openness to helping. The only problem I have is that dealership I bought it from. They have not answered or returned my calls, and I still have some questions about the particular unit I have before I sign their document.
Although I am lancinatingly aware that it is probably paranoia, but if I'm going to pay nearly $3000 for something, I want to know if something is wrong with it.
Firstly, the motor makes some very strange noises, we noticed the first instant we drove it out of the store. When we tip to one side a low speeds, we hear this... grinding. The only other place I have heard a sound like that is on a Walker Mower when the deck elevates too high while the blades are spinning, which causes the shaft to rub on the frame. The other noises are as numerous as they are inconsistent. My thoughts on this are simply that I would rather go slower and farther than faster and shorter. I fear this motor will grind to a permanent halt after just a few thousand miles (hopefully, I'm wrong).
Which leads me to my next concern: I have yet to exceed 17.5 miles on one charge. I weigh 173 pounds and carry a backpack that weighs about 5 pounds. The battery indicators are worthless, it's like they mounted the circuits backwards. It drops to 1 LED after just 7 miles, then drives for another 10! If I use the turbo or twice, my range drops to 16 or 15 miles. The weird thing is that second speed, which is pretty slow, about half the speed of third, seems to use almost as much power as third... ? Geared or not, that does not compute. That 17.5 miles was done on a somewhat controlled test of mine. I got on the rail trail, and set the cruise control to about 13.5 mph (no turbo used for this trip). After 15 miles, it refused to continue in third. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that you get a few grace miles in lower speeds when the battery is depleted.
After getting used to the e-bikeboard's 30-50 mile range (I know the specs say otherwise, but my S500 truly has gone 50 miles), it is a difficult transition. I have gone to campus for a week now, and it died every time. I have followed all instructions and care protocols to the letter. Nobody can say I damaged the batteries by inexperience, because I've been driving the bikeboard for thousands of miles with no problems concerning the batteries.
So naturally, I have to wonder if I have dud batteries and a damaged motor. After all, we did buy the model that was hanging from the ceiling above the models with pricetags on the floor.
I just tried to call Lryic Draper again. No answer. No even the machine this time, it just kept ringing. This is starting to incense me.
HOWEVER, the expense to the battery is not even worth it. You can deplete you battery within an hour. Note that I am not using the turbo all the time, as the manual warns to only use it for 3 minutes at a time. Without the turbo active, 3rd speed still climbs hills very easily, but it is noticeably slower.
Also observed, the torque is rather low between 0 and 1 mph. I know that sounds silly, but if you are stopped on a steep hill and try to accelerate upward, you have to use turbo or full throttle to get started. Once you hit about 1mph the thing takes off like a rocket.
At this time, I like the Lyric, the company, and their openness to helping. The only problem I have is that dealership I bought it from. They have not answered or returned my calls, and I still have some questions about the particular unit I have before I sign their document.
Although I am lancinatingly aware that it is probably paranoia, but if I'm going to pay nearly $3000 for something, I want to know if something is wrong with it.
Firstly, the motor makes some very strange noises, we noticed the first instant we drove it out of the store. When we tip to one side a low speeds, we hear this... grinding. The only other place I have heard a sound like that is on a Walker Mower when the deck elevates too high while the blades are spinning, which causes the shaft to rub on the frame. The other noises are as numerous as they are inconsistent. My thoughts on this are simply that I would rather go slower and farther than faster and shorter. I fear this motor will grind to a permanent halt after just a few thousand miles (hopefully, I'm wrong).
Which leads me to my next concern: I have yet to exceed 17.5 miles on one charge. I weigh 173 pounds and carry a backpack that weighs about 5 pounds. The battery indicators are worthless, it's like they mounted the circuits backwards. It drops to 1 LED after just 7 miles, then drives for another 10! If I use the turbo or twice, my range drops to 16 or 15 miles. The weird thing is that second speed, which is pretty slow, about half the speed of third, seems to use almost as much power as third... ? Geared or not, that does not compute. That 17.5 miles was done on a somewhat controlled test of mine. I got on the rail trail, and set the cruise control to about 13.5 mph (no turbo used for this trip). After 15 miles, it refused to continue in third. I was pleasantly surprised to discover that you get a few grace miles in lower speeds when the battery is depleted.
After getting used to the e-bikeboard's 30-50 mile range (I know the specs say otherwise, but my S500 truly has gone 50 miles), it is a difficult transition. I have gone to campus for a week now, and it died every time. I have followed all instructions and care protocols to the letter. Nobody can say I damaged the batteries by inexperience, because I've been driving the bikeboard for thousands of miles with no problems concerning the batteries.
So naturally, I have to wonder if I have dud batteries and a damaged motor. After all, we did buy the model that was hanging from the ceiling above the models with pricetags on the floor.
I just tried to call Lryic Draper again. No answer. No even the machine this time, it just kept ringing. This is starting to incense me.
David Dymaxion
Oct 7, 2011, 2:14:22 PM10/7/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
If the battery packs are the same you could try swapping them and see if the range changes. That would help narrow things down. Caveat: A little extra speed can gobble a surprisingly large amount of range, so ideally testing would be at the same speed for both.
From: Adam <cha...@gmail.com>
To: utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: [UtahEVinterest] Re: Lyric Ranger
Adam
Oct 7, 2011, 2:31:19 PM10/7/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
That's the plan. I've set up a controlled test on a day when weather permits. Controls:
1. Location: Continuous, virtually flat circuit path.
2. Both Battery sets to be fully charged and handled at the same time under the same conditions and locations.
3. Batteries and PTVs will be transported and manually pushed onto the track.
4. Both PTVs will have riders and cargo of similar weight.
5. Both PTVs will travel together, in series, at the same speed. This will be the bikeboard's max cruising speed, which will be about 3/5 lyric top speed. Lyric will be maintained in speed 3, no turbo activation. Since we are comparing to the bikeboard, the bikeboard will be in front to keep lyric speed in check.
6. All tires will be checked for proper inflation.
7. Redundant and estimated friction test on brakes will be performed.
8. An observer will record data as necessary.
I'll let you guys know what I find.
1. Location: Continuous, virtually flat circuit path.
2. Both Battery sets to be fully charged and handled at the same time under the same conditions and locations.
3. Batteries and PTVs will be transported and manually pushed onto the track.
4. Both PTVs will have riders and cargo of similar weight.
5. Both PTVs will travel together, in series, at the same speed. This will be the bikeboard's max cruising speed, which will be about 3/5 lyric top speed. Lyric will be maintained in speed 3, no turbo activation. Since we are comparing to the bikeboard, the bikeboard will be in front to keep lyric speed in check.
6. All tires will be checked for proper inflation.
7. Redundant and estimated friction test on brakes will be performed.
8. An observer will record data as necessary.
I'll let you guys know what I find.
Cy Waldron
Oct 7, 2011, 3:15:07 PM10/7/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Adam, Will you please call me on my cell phone. Also, what number are you calling for the store?
I am concerned and want to take care of you.
Cy Waldron
President / CEO
LYRIC Motion | US
933 South Edison St.
Salt Lake City, Utah 84111
USA
Salt Lake City, Utah 84111
USA
David Dymaxion
Oct 7, 2011, 3:52:13 PM10/7/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
A fine point: If one is right behind the other, it might benefit from less wind resistance -- side by side would be a more even test, or put enough space between the two.
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 12:31 PM
Tim
Oct 7, 2011, 3:59:42 PM10/7/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
What do you do for a living if you are that thorough with a battery test? ;-)
Kevin Young
Oct 7, 2011, 4:27:28 PM10/7/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Tim, he shows definite signs of being a graduate student in the sciences! We could test this ourselves--just volunteer to be the observer verifying the data and put up a sign just outside the test track area that says "Free Food." If he veers off track for the possibility of free food we will have conclusive evidence that Adam is a grad student ;-)
Tim
Oct 7, 2011, 4:31:13 PM10/7/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Defenitly! I feel like we would have to do this three times under optimal conditions to make sure our results are as legit as his would be.
Tim
(I just got my masters so I should follow the same structure J )
Adam
Oct 9, 2011, 8:09:46 PM10/9/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Kevin, Tim: lol
David: Excellent point, I will implement that after some rough calculations.
Cy: The number I am calling is 8015715110. Most of the time the phone just rings continuously. Sometimes I get the answering machine. Twice I left a message with a request to call me back and my phone number.
I'm a little concerned too, because yesterday that little plastic cover on the wheel lug fell off, and I discovered the lug on the front wheel was loose. Now that I've tightened it, many of the sounds we've been hearing are gone.
We test drove an XOV3R on Saturday, and it felt much better. We want to trade the RNG3R for the XOV3R, but now we've got over 100 miles on the RNG3R. We are willing pay a little extra to cover the miles we got on the Rng3r.
I will call you tomorrow in the afternoon, if time permits.
David: Excellent point, I will implement that after some rough calculations.
Cy: The number I am calling is 8015715110. Most of the time the phone just rings continuously. Sometimes I get the answering machine. Twice I left a message with a request to call me back and my phone number.
I'm a little concerned too, because yesterday that little plastic cover on the wheel lug fell off, and I discovered the lug on the front wheel was loose. Now that I've tightened it, many of the sounds we've been hearing are gone.
We test drove an XOV3R on Saturday, and it felt much better. We want to trade the RNG3R for the XOV3R, but now we've got over 100 miles on the RNG3R. We are willing pay a little extra to cover the miles we got on the Rng3r.
I will call you tomorrow in the afternoon, if time permits.
David Dymaxion
Oct 17, 2011, 5:38:02 PM10/17/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Kyle had asked on EVDL about the current state of my electric Porsche. <whiney violin music>Lots of things have been going on for the income side of my life -- got to have money to play with the cars -- but I think I finally have the extra hours projects under control. I had my car on the Salt Flats. Just last night I organized which pictures I want to throw up onto a web page, that'll be great stuff (there'll be an actual carnage shot!). Unfortunately I burned up some brush gear -- that'll teach me to go pedal-to-the-metal instead of working up slowly! So I need to fix my motor. Has anyone replaced brushes, holders, and springs through the brush holes, or did you have to drop the motor and take off the end plate? Once brushes are
fixed I can do some testing to make sure I don't do a 2nd brush pyre.</whiney violin music>
Good news is my Kelly sepex controller has been working great, and runs really cool despite ruinous amounts of brush current. The other good news is I have a bunch of lithium batteries waiting to go into the car. Brushes + lithiums + more instrumentation and I can be driving to work and resume clean transportation promotion via velocity maximization.
I'm still working on the battery charger, but I have options!
o Bad boy charger (cheap but no control, will take a long time to do a full charge)
o Use the regen function of the controller to charge (Very experimental, but it would be cool!)
o Use my current 48V charger, charge 48V at a time (interim solution)
o Use contactors to put pack into 3 parallel 48V blocks and use 48V charger
o Use the "plastic wrench" and buy a fancy charger
o Make a Lee Hart style battery monitoring system (it props up the lowest battery, pretty clever)
Good news is my Kelly sepex controller has been working great, and runs really cool despite ruinous amounts of brush current. The other good news is I have a bunch of lithium batteries waiting to go into the car. Brushes + lithiums + more instrumentation and I can be driving to work and resume clean transportation promotion via velocity maximization.
I'm still working on the battery charger, but I have options!
o Bad boy charger (cheap but no control, will take a long time to do a full charge)
o Use the regen function of the controller to charge (Very experimental, but it would be cool!)
o Use my current 48V charger, charge 48V at a time (interim solution)
o Use contactors to put pack into 3 parallel 48V blocks and use 48V charger
o Use the "plastic wrench" and buy a fancy charger
o Make a Lee Hart style battery monitoring system (it props up the lowest battery, pretty clever)
Kyle Dansie
Oct 18, 2011, 8:24:09 PM10/18/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
David,
I understand about how other things in life can slow down working on the EV. I lived through several of those myself. Good to hear that you are planing what the next steps are with the Porsche. I am looking forward to seeing that car with the Lithium powerhouse.
Not sure if you heard, but I have sold my electric truck. The new owner lives in southern CA by the border with mexico. He says the truck is working great. Not sure how he survives in that area without air conditioning, but he seems to manage.
Last week I did get to test drive the new Leaf at Tim Dahle in Murray. It was a lot of fun to drive. Smooth and quite just like everyone says. It seemed to be very quick compared to my other cars. I am looking forward to buying one, but they say it will be at least till next March before they have any for sale here in Utah. After the 2012 models start showing up next month, I may try and buy one out of state and ship it here. It all depends on if I can find one close to MSRP or not. If they have a big mark up, I may just wait for one to show up here next March.
David Dymaxion
Oct 18, 2011, 11:09:48 PM10/18/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Your truck was a nice conversion, it is good to hear it has a good home.
I'm looking forward to your Leaf, too!
From: Kyle Dansie <kyled...@comcast.net>
To: utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [UtahEVinterest] 9Electric state of affairs
David Dymaxion
Oct 18, 2011, 11:14:40 PM10/18/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Here's a cross post of mine from diyelectriccar, I thought the locals would enjoy:
I have one of these fans blowing into a brush hole:
It is from EV Source and is rated for 148 cfm. I measured it to pull just under 4 Amps.
My motor also has the stock Kostov fan on the drive end. It blows air out of holes radially.
Something different about my motor is it is a sepex. This means at low rpm the fields can be worked pretty hard. At 1600 rpm (idle speed with my simple homemade controller, no 0 rpm stuff there) the fields could handle 48 A, motor ran many hours and miles this way. The motor only had the internal fan. Conclusion: at 1600 rpm and 48A on the field the internal fan could keep the fields cool enough.
Then I installed a Kelly Sepex controller, 144V and 1000A nominal (BTW I like the Kelly so far, more to report on that in the future). It wants to always power the field, even sitting at 0 rpm. With 0 rpm, and 38 A on the field, the fields started smoking after about 10 minutes. This was despite the EV Source fan pictured above. Conclusion: The squirrel cage fan does not cool nearly as well as the stock internal fan does at 1600 rpm. (BTW it is a square law, heat = I^2R, so the fields had (38 / 48)^2 = 62% of the heat, but the squirrel cage still wasn't up to that.
I lowered the field current to about 24 A, and the fields have been cucumber cool since then, even with just the squirrel cage fan blowing.
I did multiple tests at 1000A, the car was accelerating and running great and the motor case was barely getting warm. This was using both the squirrel cage fan and the internal fan.
Then I did an extended "test" at 1000A (running on the Salt Flats) and cooked my brushes. It appears overheating did them in, but it is also possible there was arcing or a lifted comm bar -- I'll be able to see better once I get it apart.
So clearly I need more cooling air on those brushes. More cooling air in general would have the secondary benefit that I could run the fields harder, for better acceleration and more regen, hence my post seeking advice on cooling.
I was very surprised to see the squirrel cage rated at only 148 cfm, but these radiator style fans rated much higher (500 to 2000 cfm!):
http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/product/9...oling_Fan_FAN9
http://www.amazon.com/High-Performan.../dp/B0038Z6LTI
Here is a picture of Kostov's radiator style fan: <img src=http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11229&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1318972520>
It seems just a simple minded look at the CFM numbers would say a radiator style fan on the end of the motor is far superior to a squirrel cage fan. However, fans can deliver energy as air speed or pressure. An extreme example is an air compressor -- most of the energy is pressure and not from air movement. So which kind is better?
So I think I have come up with an idea. Once the motor is out of the car, I could try both kinds of electric fans -- squirrel cage and radiator style, and seeing which one blows more air through the motor.
I have thought about putting fins on the motor case, but it seems my more immediate problem is the brushes.
Side note: I hooked the squirrel cage fan to the inside of the rear bumper (it is a rear engined car). It doesn't vibrate much, but the little bit of vibration resonates throughout the whole car and is significantly louder than the motor itself! Next I'll rubber mount things, or a radiator fan to the back of the motor will leverage the motor mounts for isolation.
I've heard the new Kostovs and have seen the Warp 11 have bigger brushes than my motor has. I assume that would help keep things cooler?
It is from EV Source and is rated for 148 cfm. I measured it to pull just under 4 Amps.
My motor also has the stock Kostov fan on the drive end. It blows air out of holes radially.
Something different about my motor is it is a sepex. This means at low rpm the fields can be worked pretty hard. At 1600 rpm (idle speed with my simple homemade controller, no 0 rpm stuff there) the fields could handle 48 A, motor ran many hours and miles this way. The motor only had the internal fan. Conclusion: at 1600 rpm and 48A on the field the internal fan could keep the fields cool enough.
Then I installed a Kelly Sepex controller, 144V and 1000A nominal (BTW I like the Kelly so far, more to report on that in the future). It wants to always power the field, even sitting at 0 rpm. With 0 rpm, and 38 A on the field, the fields started smoking after about 10 minutes. This was despite the EV Source fan pictured above. Conclusion: The squirrel cage fan does not cool nearly as well as the stock internal fan does at 1600 rpm. (BTW it is a square law, heat = I^2R, so the fields had (38 / 48)^2 = 62% of the heat, but the squirrel cage still wasn't up to that.
I lowered the field current to about 24 A, and the fields have been cucumber cool since then, even with just the squirrel cage fan blowing.
I did multiple tests at 1000A, the car was accelerating and running great and the motor case was barely getting warm. This was using both the squirrel cage fan and the internal fan.
Then I did an extended "test" at 1000A (running on the Salt Flats) and cooked my brushes. It appears overheating did them in, but it is also possible there was arcing or a lifted comm bar -- I'll be able to see better once I get it apart.
So clearly I need more cooling air on those brushes. More cooling air in general would have the secondary benefit that I could run the fields harder, for better acceleration and more regen, hence my post seeking advice on cooling.
I was very surprised to see the squirrel cage rated at only 148 cfm, but these radiator style fans rated much higher (500 to 2000 cfm!):
http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/product/9...oling_Fan_FAN9
http://www.amazon.com/High-Performan.../dp/B0038Z6LTI
Here is a picture of Kostov's radiator style fan: <img src=http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11229&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1318972520>
It seems just a simple minded look at the CFM numbers would say a radiator style fan on the end of the motor is far superior to a squirrel cage fan. However, fans can deliver energy as air speed or pressure. An extreme example is an air compressor -- most of the energy is pressure and not from air movement. So which kind is better?
So I think I have come up with an idea. Once the motor is out of the car, I could try both kinds of electric fans -- squirrel cage and radiator style, and seeing which one blows more air through the motor.
I have thought about putting fins on the motor case, but it seems my more immediate problem is the brushes.
Side note: I hooked the squirrel cage fan to the inside of the rear bumper (it is a rear engined car). It doesn't vibrate much, but the little bit of vibration resonates throughout the whole car and is significantly louder than the motor itself! Next I'll rubber mount things, or a radiator fan to the back of the motor will leverage the motor mounts for isolation.
I've heard the new Kostovs and have seen the Warp 11 have bigger brushes than my motor has. I assume that would help keep things cooler?
__________________
hans j
Oct 21, 2011, 11:36:43 PM10/21/11
to UtahEVInterest
I like the radiator style fan, I think that would work best if you
could directly attach it to the motor. That should keep the noise
fairly low (as low as it's going to get). I would also look into
either getting a thermostatically controlled relay for the fan or
building a controller for it so it turns on when there is a high load
or something. It shouldn't be much of a restriction to the stock fan
because it is designed to allow airflow through it at speed as in a
water cooled car.
I would also seal the intake side of the motor to be inside the engine
compartment, and have the motor heat exhaust outside that seal. The
Porsche was originally designed to basically have a vacuum inside the
engine compartment and draw cold air in through the hood louvers and
exit past the cylinders below the car. If you can keep that setup,
anything you put in the engine compartment should have that cool
(ambient) air. If your controller has water cooling, I would put that
on the outside of the seal with a fan if needed. Also you might be
able to drop the RPM of the motor with resistors if you need it
quieter.
Larger parts usually do equal cooler running, more mass. But I think
parts need to be matched, EV's enemy is weight.
On Oct 18, 9:14 pm, David Dymaxion <david_dymax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here's a cross post of mine from diyelectriccar, I thought the locals would enjoy:
>
> I have one of these fans blowing into a brush hole:
>
> Here is a picture of Kostov's radiator style fan: <img src=http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1122...>
could directly attach it to the motor. That should keep the noise
fairly low (as low as it's going to get). I would also look into
either getting a thermostatically controlled relay for the fan or
building a controller for it so it turns on when there is a high load
or something. It shouldn't be much of a restriction to the stock fan
because it is designed to allow airflow through it at speed as in a
water cooled car.
I would also seal the intake side of the motor to be inside the engine
compartment, and have the motor heat exhaust outside that seal. The
Porsche was originally designed to basically have a vacuum inside the
engine compartment and draw cold air in through the hood louvers and
exit past the cylinders below the car. If you can keep that setup,
anything you put in the engine compartment should have that cool
(ambient) air. If your controller has water cooling, I would put that
on the outside of the seal with a fan if needed. Also you might be
able to drop the RPM of the motor with resistors if you need it
quieter.
Larger parts usually do equal cooler running, more mass. But I think
parts need to be matched, EV's enemy is weight.
On Oct 18, 9:14 pm, David Dymaxion <david_dymax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here's a cross post of mine from diyelectriccar, I thought the locals would enjoy:
>
> I have one of these fans blowing into a brush hole:
>
David Dymaxion
Oct 22, 2011, 2:25:39 AM10/22/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Hans, good points, you are one smart EVer!
Here are three fans:
The top fan is called a "squirrel cage" fan. The popular wisdom on the EVDL is you should use one of these (but hold that thought!). It develops better pressure than a window fan type of fan. I currently have one of these on the 9Electric. While it does cool the motor much faster after running, it appears it is not adequate for racing. Mind you, I have a sepex that I'm running the field coils as hot as I dare, and as many amps as I dare, for land speed distances, so I'm definitely an extreme user! Most street EVers are happy with a fan like that, I got mine from http://www.evsource.com .
The 2nd picture shows what Kostov now sells as a cooling fan. This mirrors Hans' suggestions. This kind of fan moves more air, but at lower pressure, so it has more trouble fighting restrictions than a squirrel cage fan. You'll note window fans and radiator fans are usually of this time, but your car's heater fan is usually a squirrel cage to push the air through the narrow channels, hose ribbing, and bends. I find it very interesting Kostov sells this type of fan, which is obviously opposite of the conventional wisdom that a squirrel cage fan is best.
The link shows a monster fan on the end of the Kostov. If mine opens up like this one does, I very well might leave the end plate off and put a monster fan on there.
So what is a poor overheated EV motor to do? Test! I have a squirrel cage fan already, plus a
radiator fan like the Kostov one pictured. I already have a leaf blower for my yard work. So what I plan to do is try all three and see which one works best. One test is to measure air temperature in vs. out. Another test is to put a bag over the exhaust holes and see which type fills the bag the fastest.
I do plan to implement Hans' excellent suggestions to suck air into the motor area and push it out outside the motor area. This will have multiple benefits:
- Obviously, cooling the motor in general
- Doesn't recirculate warmed air
- Helps keep the controller cooler
- Doesn't blow conductive carbon dust from the brushes around the controller electronics
- I can have a big tail pipe!
- I can breathe from the tail pipe as a gimmick!
I am planning on resistors or even a controller to drop the fan speed. If I use a leaf blower I'll absolutely have to do something like this,
it'll be too loud otherwise. I'll save the loud mode for the track. It would be too cool to have a leaf blower slowly spin up on the starting line.
I'm also planning to instrument the field temperature and brush temperature -- that would be a much better way to detect overtemp than the way I did!
Sometimes I think I want to put a GE 13 inch into the car -- but those beasts are around 400 pounds! The Kostov is 180 lbs. I'm hoping with more cooling I can lean on this motor harder, and a fan is certainly cheaper than another motor!
From: hans j <hans.jo...@gmail.com>
To: UtahEVInterest <utahEVi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 9:36 PM
Subject: [UtahEVinterest] Re: Cooling
David Dymaxion
Oct 22, 2011, 3:54:42 AM10/22/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Something I forgot to say:
I am planning on keeping the internal fan in any case. Air blows through it quite freely when it is stopped, and when running the electric and internal fan will work together. It should actually lower the current the electric fan would draw when the internal mechanical fan is being turned.
From: David Dymaxion <david_d...@yahoo.com>
To: "utahevi...@googlegroups.com" <utahevi...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: [UtahEVinterest] Re: Cooling
Hans, good points, you are one smart EVer!
Here are three fans:
The top fan is called a "squirrel cage" fan. The popular wisdom on the EVDL is you should use one of these (but hold that thought!). It develops better pressure than a window fan type of fan. I currently have one of these on the 9Electric. While it does cool the motor much faster after running, it appears it is not adequate for racing. Mind you, I have a sepex that I'm running the field coils as hot as I dare, and as many amps as I dare, for land speed distances, so I'm definitely an extreme user! Most street EVers are happy with a fan like that, I got mine from http://www.evsource.com/ .
hans j
Oct 22, 2011, 6:27:57 PM10/22/11
to UtahEVInterest
Thinking about it more Dave, the stock VW type 1 engines (Beetle/912)
were a squirrel cage type but the type 3/4 and 911 engines used a
radiator style fan. If you plan on keeping the stock internal fan
(highly recommended!), I would just do the radiator style on the end.
They might not create much pressure, but that's not what you really
need. You need as much air to blow across the hot parts as quickly as
possible (high CFM). Also the squirrel cage isn't designed to allow
full flow of air through it when turned off (as radiator fans are),
that could be bad and not allow enough air through in case something
happens to the electric fan.
On Oct 22, 1:54 am, David Dymaxion <david_dymax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Something I forgot to say:
>
> I am planning on keeping the internal fan in any case. Air blows through it quite freely when it is stopped, and when running the electric and internal fan will work together. It should actually lower the current the electric fan would draw when the internal mechanical fan is being turned.
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Dymaxion <david_dymax...@yahoo.com>
> * Doesn't recirculate warmed air
> * Helps keep the controller cooler
> * Doesn't blow conductive carbon dust from the brushes around the controller electronics
> * I can have a big tail pipe!
> * I can breathe from the tail pipe as a gimmick!
were a squirrel cage type but the type 3/4 and 911 engines used a
radiator style fan. If you plan on keeping the stock internal fan
(highly recommended!), I would just do the radiator style on the end.
They might not create much pressure, but that's not what you really
need. You need as much air to blow across the hot parts as quickly as
possible (high CFM). Also the squirrel cage isn't designed to allow
full flow of air through it when turned off (as radiator fans are),
that could be bad and not allow enough air through in case something
happens to the electric fan.
On Oct 22, 1:54 am, David Dymaxion <david_dymax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Something I forgot to say:
>
> I am planning on keeping the internal fan in any case. Air blows through it quite freely when it is stopped, and when running the electric and internal fan will work together. It should actually lower the current the electric fan would draw when the internal mechanical fan is being turned.
>
> ________________________________
> To: "utahevi...@googlegroups.com" <utahevi...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 12:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [UtahEVinterest] Re: Cooling
>
> Hans, good points, you are one smart EVer!
>
> Here are three fans:
>
>
>
> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 12:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [UtahEVinterest] Re: Cooling
>
> Hans, good points, you are one smart EVer!
>
> Here are three fans:
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggWr5yoNZcE&feature=player_embedded
>
> The top fan is called a "squirrel cage" fan. The popular wisdom on the EVDL is you should use one of these (but hold that thought!). It develops better pressure than a window fan type of fan. I currently have one of these on the 9Electric. While it does cool the motor much faster after running, it appears it is not adequate for racing. Mind you, I have a sepex that I'm running the field coils as hot as I dare, and as many amps as I dare, for land speed distances, so I'm definitely an extreme user! Most street EVers are happy with a fan like that, I got mine fromhttp://www.evsource.com/.
>
> The 2nd picture shows what Kostov now sells as a cooling fan. This mirrors Hans' suggestions. This kind of fan moves more air, but at lower pressure, so it has more trouble fighting restrictions than a squirrel cage fan. You'll note window fans and radiator fans are usually of this time, but your car's heater fan is usually a squirrel cage to push the air through the narrow channels, hose ribbing, and bends. I find it very interesting Kostov sells this type of fan, which is obviously opposite of the conventional wisdom that a squirrel cage fan is best.
>
> The link shows a monster fan on the end of the Kostov. If mine opens up like this one does, I very well might leave the end plate off and put a monster fan on there.
>
> So what is a poor overheated EV motor to do? Test! I have a squirrel cage fan already, plus a radiator fan like the Kostov one pictured. I already have a leaf blower for my yard work. So what I plan to do is try all three and see which one works best. One test is to measure air temperature in vs. out. Another test is to put a bag over the exhaust holes and see which type fills the bag the fastest.
>
> I do plan to implement Hans' excellent suggestions to suck air into the motor area and push it out outside the motor area. This will have multiple benefits:
> * Obviously, cooling the motor in general
>
> The top fan is called a "squirrel cage" fan. The popular wisdom on the EVDL is you should use one of these (but hold that thought!). It develops better pressure than a window fan type of fan. I currently have one of these on the 9Electric. While it does cool the motor much faster after running, it appears it is not adequate for racing. Mind you, I have a sepex that I'm running the field coils as hot as I dare, and as many amps as I dare, for land speed distances, so I'm definitely an extreme user! Most street EVers are happy with a fan like that, I got mine fromhttp://www.evsource.com/.
>
> The 2nd picture shows what Kostov now sells as a cooling fan. This mirrors Hans' suggestions. This kind of fan moves more air, but at lower pressure, so it has more trouble fighting restrictions than a squirrel cage fan. You'll note window fans and radiator fans are usually of this time, but your car's heater fan is usually a squirrel cage to push the air through the narrow channels, hose ribbing, and bends. I find it very interesting Kostov sells this type of fan, which is obviously opposite of the conventional wisdom that a squirrel cage fan is best.
>
> The link shows a monster fan on the end of the Kostov. If mine opens up like this one does, I very well might leave the end plate off and put a monster fan on there.
>
> So what is a poor overheated EV motor to do? Test! I have a squirrel cage fan already, plus a radiator fan like the Kostov one pictured. I already have a leaf blower for my yard work. So what I plan to do is try all three and see which one works best. One test is to measure air temperature in vs. out. Another test is to put a bag over the exhaust holes and see which type fills the bag the fastest.
>
> I do plan to implement Hans' excellent suggestions to suck air into the motor area and push it out outside the motor area. This will have multiple benefits:
> * Doesn't recirculate warmed air
> * Helps keep the controller cooler
> * Doesn't blow conductive carbon dust from the brushes around the controller electronics
> * I can have a big tail pipe!
> * I can breathe from the tail pipe as a gimmick!
>
> I am planning on resistors or even a controller to drop the fan speed. If I use a leaf blower I'll absolutely have to do something like this, it'll be too loud otherwise. I'll save the loud mode for the track. It would be too cool to have a leaf blower slowly spin up on the starting line.
>
> I'm also planning to instrument the field temperature and brush temperature -- that would be a much better way to detect overtemp than the way I did!
>
> Sometimes I think I want to put a GE 13 inch into the car -- but those beasts are around 400 pounds! The Kostov is 180 lbs. I'm hoping with more cooling I can lean on this motor harder, and a fan is certainly cheaper than another motor!
>
> ________________________________
> From: hans j <hans.jorgen...@gmail.com>
> I am planning on resistors or even a controller to drop the fan speed. If I use a leaf blower I'll absolutely have to do something like this, it'll be too loud otherwise. I'll save the loud mode for the track. It would be too cool to have a leaf blower slowly spin up on the starting line.
>
> I'm also planning to instrument the field temperature and brush temperature -- that would be a much better way to detect overtemp than the way I did!
>
> Sometimes I think I want to put a GE 13 inch into the car -- but those beasts are around 400 pounds! The Kostov is 180 lbs. I'm hoping with more cooling I can lean on this motor harder, and a fan is certainly cheaper than another motor!
>
> ________________________________
David Dymaxion
Oct 23, 2011, 2:06:16 AM10/23/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Good points again. That's a good thought about the squirrel cage fan I used might have choked the air flow at high rpm for the internal fan -- that might have been my source of trouble. I might have been better off without the squirrel cage fan, interesting thought.
You got me thinking about something else. I might be better off driving air in through the end of the motor (like the Kostov fan pic shows), and leaving the brush holes open -- that might exhaust that hot air from the brushes better than pushing it to the far end of the motor. I'll have to add using my IR thermometer to check the brush temp as part of my tests.
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 4:27 PM
Subject: [UtahEVinterest] Re: Cooling
Subject: [UtahEVinterest] Re: Cooling
David Dymaxion
Oct 24, 2011, 12:22:26 AM10/24/11
to utahevi...@googlegroups.com
Idea from a model airplane friend of mine: Use ducted fans to cool the
motor. They would be fairly cheap, could run on 12V, and the controllers
would be cheap. It would sound neat to slowly rev them up. They would be
horribly noisy at full tilt!
hans j
Oct 31, 2011, 11:27:58 AM10/31/11
to UtahEVInterest
My concern is just weight, especially in autox and salt flats. I do
like the suggestion of using compressed air aimed at the brushes but
how much dust would that blow around? Maybe it would be a good fail
safe where if the brushes reach a certain temperature they would just
get a burst of air in addition to the standard fans. A small container
of compressed air wouldn't weigh much, but an onboard pump does, and
draws electricity...
I prefer the KISS method when dealing with my EV; it tends to keep
things light and maintenance low.
like the suggestion of using compressed air aimed at the brushes but
how much dust would that blow around? Maybe it would be a good fail
safe where if the brushes reach a certain temperature they would just
get a burst of air in addition to the standard fans. A small container
of compressed air wouldn't weigh much, but an onboard pump does, and
draws electricity...
I prefer the KISS method when dealing with my EV; it tends to keep
things light and maintenance low.
Adam
Nov 27, 2011, 11:29:12 AM11/27/11
to UtahEVInterest
Updates for Lyric RNG3R and Bikeboard S500:
Hey everyone, I've given it some time and collected a lot of data to
draw a more useful ratiocination. Sadly, a very valuable chunk of that
data was lost when the box lid on the back of our Lyric blew off
during a storm. I have a lot of work to do for my classes, so herein
the updates in no particular order.
Hey everyone, I've given it some time and collected a lot of data to
draw a more useful ratiocination. Sadly, a very valuable chunk of that
data was lost when the box lid on the back of our Lyric blew off
during a storm. I have a lot of work to do for my classes, so herein
the updates in no particular order.
Front Halogen Headlight
Either my suspicions about the lamp were correct, I got a dud, or one
of my tests damaged it. Whatever the case, the light has completely
stopped working as of yesterday (Odometer: ~800 miles). Last week, I
conducted a casual test to quantify the energy disposition caused by
using the lamp. Since I record all of my data by hand, I will only
publish... excuse me... share/post data which either I find pertinent
to the community or someone has asked me to share it.
Anyway, in this test, I simply turned on the lights at a full charge
and checked the battery meters every few minutes for just under an
hour. There was no change, but I anticipated this and already had the
Lyric ready for part 2 of the test: I deactivated the light, activated
the turbo, and "gunned it" for a preplanned 0.25 mile path. My
suspicion was that the battery meter was based on something other than
coulombs and time—such as a simple decoder circuit based on voltage
minima. Alas, the meter still read 5 blips, the test is thusfar
worthless, and it may have ruined the lamp.
Although, it really does not matter because I had previously installed
4 LED lights to the handlebars only a week after purchasing the Lyric,
mostly because I did not trust the Halogen. That light just does
whatever it wants. Once it is on, everything is fine, but that Halogen
is by no means reliable for "on demand" applications. Again, maybe
mine was a dud, I don't really know for certain. The LEDs I bought at
Harbor Freight, on the other hand, are quite reliable and just as
bright as the halogen (when used together), and they even double as
turn signals. Oh, that reminds me, a word of caution: the police do
not like it when you have all four of them flashing simultaneously.
Police
I have been stopped twice now. The first was for the lights. The
Layton officer gave me a 20-minute vociferation for how "serious an
offense that impersonating an officer" was, but I had no blue and red
lights flashing so he had to let me go. I'm not trying to pull anyone
over, I am just trying to not be run over by the parade of kamikazes
departing the interstate to attend their classes on campus.
The second time was for recklessness. In my defense, the Lyric is fun
to drive... perhaps too fun... It never stops being fun unless you are
not in speed 3. The officer's exact words to me were: "I don't know
how to write a citation for that thing, but I'm going to find out. And
if I see you out here again I'm giving you one.
Brakes
I was excited to have working brakes because my old S500 requires
about 10 pumps every time I want to stop (used to be worse...). Sadly,
the primary brake lever already has a problem. It behaves exactly as
the old bikeboard does. When I squeeze it, nothing happens. I have to
squeeze it 2-3 times before it starts working. I have checked the
fluid; it is full. So maybe the plunger has worn out already.
There is also something off about one of the rear brake calipers. They
claim to be self-adjusting, yet since day 1, the starboard side
caliper is grabbing on one side. The other wheel spins quite freely,
but this one grinds to a stop very quickly. I have adjusted the crap
out of that thing to no avail. I have taken it to no less than a dozen
brake experts to no avail. I have called the Lyric Dealership several
times... Those guys in the store really tick me off. They have never
answered any of my questions (and I have had quite a few). Not one!
They always say the same stupid thing: "Uh yeah, I don't know. You
could bring it by and we can look at it." Bring it by... In other
words, they want me to drive 50 miles there on a scooter that only
goes 20 miles, probably fail to collect the answer I wanted, and 50
miles back home. The alternative is the trains, which costs a little
over $20 round trip--more expensive that driving a blasted car! Still,
we are impressed enough by our Lyric to continue supporting them. I
must have told 200 people last week about that little event they just
had at the dealership, about 10 of which I know to have attended (so
maybe now I can sweet talk the store into giving me one of those cup
holders that were added like one day after we got out Lryic).
Tires
The brake problem is compounded by the tire configuration. The rear
tires were filled with Tirefill foam a few weeks ago. I've traveled
~600 miles since then. Range is mildly affected by the weight of the
foam in the tires by about 1-3 miles. Note: each tire now weighs
exactly (virtually) 14-pounds. We are still very happy with the foam—
those tires will never go flat, and I am confident they are good to go
for the life of the vehicle. Word of caution: don't have the foam-
filler guys try to simulate the 30-40 psi range. I think it is too
much. Next time I think I will have them try 20-25 psi.
Motor
You have to take the motor in periodically to have it greased, but
that leads to another unanswered question: how often? I need an answer
given in miles, and when I get it, I'll post it here for reference.
Battery Protective Caps
I strongly recommend anyone who buys a lyric to head over to the
hardware store and purchase two Vinyl fence-post caps and a quartet of
flexible spring hinges to build an extension to the splash guard. Be
sure to cut a slit in the one side (not too deep to impede the
battery) to securely hold on to the splash guard. The spring hinges
will allow you to remove the batteries in the rain and take them with
you. You can flip the caps down over the contacts, keeping them dry
and preventing vandalism. If you really want to go all out on this,
you can try to get a pair of locks from Lyric and drill a second hole
in the battery tracks near the bottom (DON'T drill any holes in the
frame!!! I don't know what is in there yet, for now, epoxy will have
to do). Then you can have flip-down covers with locks on them. Oh and
one more thing, you will want to drill a small hole in the low corner
of the cap where it hugs the original splash guard—if water does get
in there, you want it to drain rather than pool.
Sorry for the structureless information overload. I could write a book
on all the reverse-engineering I've done with those boards, but for
those professors of mine. Speaking of...
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