It’s Time for the Single Flag System
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Matthew Knowles
Dec 7, 2009, 2:20:24 PM12/7/09
to USTRA, Scuttlebutt
It’s Time for the Single Flag System.
The “two step” umpire process in team racing is a relic which leads to
unnecessary confusion, creates more work for crews in the midst of
tight tactical situations, and often forces umpires to “green flag”
situations due to an error in procedure even though a boat has broken
a rule. This status quo is good for no one.
There is an easy alternative, and it has been in use in many places
for some time: when there is an incident, a boat hails “protest” and
displays a flag. Either or both boats may then take a penalty. If,
after it is clear that no more penalties will be taken and a boat that
broke a rule did not take a penalty, the umpires will signal a
decision. This is the single flag system.
Single flag is merely a procedural – not a substantive – change.
Unlike match racing, the responsibility for complying with and
enforcing the rule remains with the competitors. When a boat breaks a
rule, it is her responsibility to take a penalty. Just as in the two
flag system, it only takes one competitor to get the umpires involved.
Also just as in the two flag system, any single competitor can prevent
the umpires from becoming involved by taking a penalty.
There are two primary advantages to the single flag system. First,
competitors have much less work to do while maneuvering in tight
situations following a possible rules infringement. Second, the
umpires are far less likely to have to “green flag” an incident where
a rule was broken because the hailing boat did not follow the two flag
system properly, or the umpires simply did not see one of the two
flags. This is especially true in windy and wavy conditions, such as
the final day of the United States Team Race Championship (Hinman
Trophy) in 2009.
The single flag system also prevents a more experienced competitor
from bullying another sailor into spinning by hailing protest with no
intention to request an umpire decision.
Some competitors object that there will be incidents where they want
the other boat to spin, but don’t want to risk an umpire decision
against them. For example, imagine that a boat in 5th place in a 1,4,5
combination makes contact with her opponent in 6th place. If the boat
in 6th place takes a one-turn penalty, there is little change: the
boat in 6th place will be a bit worse off, but not by much. However,
if the umpires were to penalize the 5th place boat, the 1,4,5 team
would now have a losing 1,4,6 combination. But such scenarios are
unpersuasive; in practice, the same outcome would occur under either
flag system. In this example, if the incident “could go either way”
such that the 5th place boat isn’t confident the umpires will get it
right, the 6th place boat will always hail for an umpire decision,
since she has little to lose but much to gain. Team racing is a zero
sum game.
Some competitors also note that when sailing against inexperienced
teams, they may want to identity fouls and encourage the infringing
boat to spin, but don’t want to be unduly harsh by involving the
umpires. Of course, under either system, a competitor can just explain
the foul and request a penalty without hailing protest and displaying
a flag. The outcome would be the same as if, under the two flag
system, the experienced competitor protested but did not request an
umpire decision and the other boat refused to spin.
Umpired team racing is a hybrid of the “fleet racing” model, where
sailing is an entirely self-policing sport, and match racing, where
the umpires are intimately involved with enforcing the rules and
competitors have no incentive to spin of their own accord. This
balance is a good thing, and it wouldn’t change with the single flag
system. Competitors remain in charge of enforcing and complying with
the rules; the umpires’ role is merely to adjudicate disputes when the
competitors cannot agree on who is at fault. Again, this is a
procedural change, not a philosophical one. Everyone agrees that skill
– not umpires and procedures – should determine the winner of a team
race. Switching to the single flag system serves this end.
Respectfully,
Matt Knowles
The “two step” umpire process in team racing is a relic which leads to
unnecessary confusion, creates more work for crews in the midst of
tight tactical situations, and often forces umpires to “green flag”
situations due to an error in procedure even though a boat has broken
a rule. This status quo is good for no one.
There is an easy alternative, and it has been in use in many places
for some time: when there is an incident, a boat hails “protest” and
displays a flag. Either or both boats may then take a penalty. If,
after it is clear that no more penalties will be taken and a boat that
broke a rule did not take a penalty, the umpires will signal a
decision. This is the single flag system.
Single flag is merely a procedural – not a substantive – change.
Unlike match racing, the responsibility for complying with and
enforcing the rule remains with the competitors. When a boat breaks a
rule, it is her responsibility to take a penalty. Just as in the two
flag system, it only takes one competitor to get the umpires involved.
Also just as in the two flag system, any single competitor can prevent
the umpires from becoming involved by taking a penalty.
There are two primary advantages to the single flag system. First,
competitors have much less work to do while maneuvering in tight
situations following a possible rules infringement. Second, the
umpires are far less likely to have to “green flag” an incident where
a rule was broken because the hailing boat did not follow the two flag
system properly, or the umpires simply did not see one of the two
flags. This is especially true in windy and wavy conditions, such as
the final day of the United States Team Race Championship (Hinman
Trophy) in 2009.
The single flag system also prevents a more experienced competitor
from bullying another sailor into spinning by hailing protest with no
intention to request an umpire decision.
Some competitors object that there will be incidents where they want
the other boat to spin, but don’t want to risk an umpire decision
against them. For example, imagine that a boat in 5th place in a 1,4,5
combination makes contact with her opponent in 6th place. If the boat
in 6th place takes a one-turn penalty, there is little change: the
boat in 6th place will be a bit worse off, but not by much. However,
if the umpires were to penalize the 5th place boat, the 1,4,5 team
would now have a losing 1,4,6 combination. But such scenarios are
unpersuasive; in practice, the same outcome would occur under either
flag system. In this example, if the incident “could go either way”
such that the 5th place boat isn’t confident the umpires will get it
right, the 6th place boat will always hail for an umpire decision,
since she has little to lose but much to gain. Team racing is a zero
sum game.
Some competitors also note that when sailing against inexperienced
teams, they may want to identity fouls and encourage the infringing
boat to spin, but don’t want to be unduly harsh by involving the
umpires. Of course, under either system, a competitor can just explain
the foul and request a penalty without hailing protest and displaying
a flag. The outcome would be the same as if, under the two flag
system, the experienced competitor protested but did not request an
umpire decision and the other boat refused to spin.
Umpired team racing is a hybrid of the “fleet racing” model, where
sailing is an entirely self-policing sport, and match racing, where
the umpires are intimately involved with enforcing the rules and
competitors have no incentive to spin of their own accord. This
balance is a good thing, and it wouldn’t change with the single flag
system. Competitors remain in charge of enforcing and complying with
the rules; the umpires’ role is merely to adjudicate disputes when the
competitors cannot agree on who is at fault. Again, this is a
procedural change, not a philosophical one. Everyone agrees that skill
– not umpires and procedures – should determine the winner of a team
race. Switching to the single flag system serves this end.
Respectfully,
Matt Knowles
Matthew Knowles
Dec 7, 2009, 3:25:00 PM12/7/09
to Ben Spiller, USTRA
Ben-
There are two schools of thought on that.
One approach is that the incident should be closed if any boat spins.
For the most part, this is to stop boats from doing "safety circles."
This is the default version of single flag that appears in Appendix D
(but can be changed by the sailing instructions).
The other, which I think is better, is to say that the incident is
only closed if all boats that broke a rule took a penalty. Thus, if
you and I are in an incident, and I am at fault, if I protest you and
you spin, the umps would penalize me. This also makes more sense for
situations where both boats break a rule; for example, when the
leeward boat breaks rule 17 and the windward boat breaks rule 11 (see,
e.g, TRCB D5.)
The sailing instructions would state how the single flag rule is to
apply. I would suggest something like this:
> 1.1 When invoked in the appendix to these SIs, rule D2.3
> (a) is deleted and replaced by
> (a) SINGLE-FLAG PROTEST PROCEDURE
> Rule D2.2(a) is replaced by
> When a boat protests under a rule of Part 2 or under rule 31, 42 or
> 44, she is not entitled to a hearing. Instead, a boat involved in
> the incident may promptly acknowledge breaking a rule and take the
> appropriate penalty. If each boat that broke a rule takes a penalty,
> the incident is closed. If not, an umpire shall decide whether any
> boat has broken a rule and shall signal a decision in compliance
> with rule D2.2(b).
I think either approach is better than the 2 flag system.
Matt
On Dec 7, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ben Spiller wrote:
> When one competitor spins is the incident "closed"?
>
> Benjamin T Spiller
> 920.918.3617
> bt.sp...@gmail.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 7, 2009, at 2:20 PM, Matthew Knowles
>> --
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There are two schools of thought on that.
One approach is that the incident should be closed if any boat spins.
For the most part, this is to stop boats from doing "safety circles."
This is the default version of single flag that appears in Appendix D
(but can be changed by the sailing instructions).
The other, which I think is better, is to say that the incident is
only closed if all boats that broke a rule took a penalty. Thus, if
you and I are in an incident, and I am at fault, if I protest you and
you spin, the umps would penalize me. This also makes more sense for
situations where both boats break a rule; for example, when the
leeward boat breaks rule 17 and the windward boat breaks rule 11 (see,
e.g, TRCB D5.)
The sailing instructions would state how the single flag rule is to
apply. I would suggest something like this:
> 1.1 When invoked in the appendix to these SIs, rule D2.3
> (a) is deleted and replaced by
> (a) SINGLE-FLAG PROTEST PROCEDURE
> Rule D2.2(a) is replaced by
> When a boat protests under a rule of Part 2 or under rule 31, 42 or
> 44, she is not entitled to a hearing. Instead, a boat involved in
> the incident may promptly acknowledge breaking a rule and take the
> appropriate penalty. If each boat that broke a rule takes a penalty,
> the incident is closed. If not, an umpire shall decide whether any
> boat has broken a rule and shall signal a decision in compliance
> with rule D2.2(b).
I think either approach is better than the 2 flag system.
Matt
On Dec 7, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ben Spiller wrote:
> When one competitor spins is the incident "closed"?
>
> Benjamin T Spiller
> 920.918.3617
> bt.sp...@gmail.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 7, 2009, at 2:20 PM, Matthew Knowles
>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "USTRA" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to us...@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to ustra+un...@googlegroups.com
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>> .
>>
>>
Ben Spiller
Dec 7, 2009, 3:12:39 PM12/7/09
to Matthew Knowles, USTRA, Scuttlebutt
When one competitor spins is the incident "closed"?
Benjamin T Spiller
920.918.3617
bt.sp...@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 7, 2009, at 2:20 PM, Matthew Knowles <matthew...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Benjamin T Spiller
920.918.3617
bt.sp...@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 7, 2009, at 2:20 PM, Matthew Knowles <matthew...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Pete Levesque
Dec 7, 2009, 8:11:01 PM12/7/09
to Matthew Knowles, Ben Spiller, USTRA
1 flag is fine as long as that flag turns the umpire on. What you are
proposing Matt is an active umpire. One that is free to interject
himself into the race when he thinks he clearly sees an incident after
he is satisfied there is a valid protest and nobody is going to spin.
The "bullying" argument is bunk so give it a rest. There will always
be jerks on the water. No amount of flags will fix that. To me, the
"bullying" argument carries no weight.
If one of the goals of this change is to not change the nature of the
game then active umpires WILL NOT achieve that goal. It will make us
more like match racing which is not good. This IS a philosophical
change.
The rules encourage match racers to lie and here's how: If you are
losing a match race create an umpire situation because then it becomes
50/50. "Umpire situation" is a nice way of saying foul, take an
advantage you don't legally have and try to get away with it. For the
same reason, match racers are also encouraged to create contact. By
the way, the fouling competitor is knowingly creating a situation they
are wrong in and asking the umpire for a judgement because they know
the umpires are just as likely to get the call wrong as they are to
get it right. The whole premise of this "tactic" is that the umpire
is really likely to get it wrong, about 50% likely. It is a desperate
tactic and one I admit I have used. I fouled the hell out of Thomas
Barrows in the last race at the windward mark of the Hinman this year
and I didn't spin. I felt really bad about it afterwards, but I was
allowed to get away with it by the umpires (not my conscience). If we
were sailing without umpires I would have never tried to cross him on
port. I did in this situation because I was 1) desperate and 2) I
knew with umpires it was going to be 50/50. Sorry Thomas.
Matt's argument about a 6th place boat being advantaged to continually
foul is a problem inherent to the game. But, with or without umpires
this advantage doesn't change. The losing team is always encouraged
to foul or create a protest. Amazingly, this doesn't happen as often
in non-umpired races. Why? Because a non-umpired race is sailed in a
different culture. At least give the umpired race the opportunity to
sail in that culture. Active umpires will take this opportunity away.
Take the Charles River Open. Lots of 3 minute justice. The ultimate
form of competitor regulation. If you're a jerk it carries with you
so be cool and spin.
The reason the US is better than everybody else at team racing is
because our cost to compete is lower than theirs so we do it more.
One reason it is lower is because we have a culture that allows us to
team race without umpires. That culture is a result of people
respecting their competitors and the rules. An actively umpired race
requires no respect at all between competitors. It can and will
devolve into a race that is sailed only by the rules the umpires can
enforce. That is not fun and not where we want to go. It will rely
much more heavily on the umpires than we do now.
If we team race under only the rules the umpires enforce, the umpired
race will become so grossly different than the non-umpired races they
will become completely different games. So different that it won't be
worth practicing for an umpired event without umpires. Thus the cost
of entry to compete goes up, competition goes down and then the level
we all play the game at also goes down. Have you ever tried to match
race without umpires? How many local no-frills match race regattas
have you attended?
The only way to keep the non-umpired race and umpired race the same is
to give the competitors discretion over whether or not to involve an
umpire. That and a healthy respect for your competitor. If you want
to have active umpires, Appendix D should start with "D1.0 Delete Rule
2."
I'm fine with one flag. As long as it is to turn the umpires on.
Pete
PS, while we're at it... Why do we keep changing the rules? What is
written into rule one year is deemed a loophole the next? No other
sport does this. Try talking team racing with somebody who team raced
in the early 90s or 80s. Impossible. Yes, some changes are for the
better. 360 instead of 2.5 point green flags. That was a good one.
Do you wonder why some of the great older sailors don't just show up
at an event? Because they have no clue what the rules are because
they changed twice since they last did this.
On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Matthew Knowles
proposing Matt is an active umpire. One that is free to interject
himself into the race when he thinks he clearly sees an incident after
he is satisfied there is a valid protest and nobody is going to spin.
The "bullying" argument is bunk so give it a rest. There will always
be jerks on the water. No amount of flags will fix that. To me, the
"bullying" argument carries no weight.
If one of the goals of this change is to not change the nature of the
game then active umpires WILL NOT achieve that goal. It will make us
more like match racing which is not good. This IS a philosophical
change.
The rules encourage match racers to lie and here's how: If you are
losing a match race create an umpire situation because then it becomes
50/50. "Umpire situation" is a nice way of saying foul, take an
advantage you don't legally have and try to get away with it. For the
same reason, match racers are also encouraged to create contact. By
the way, the fouling competitor is knowingly creating a situation they
are wrong in and asking the umpire for a judgement because they know
the umpires are just as likely to get the call wrong as they are to
get it right. The whole premise of this "tactic" is that the umpire
is really likely to get it wrong, about 50% likely. It is a desperate
tactic and one I admit I have used. I fouled the hell out of Thomas
Barrows in the last race at the windward mark of the Hinman this year
and I didn't spin. I felt really bad about it afterwards, but I was
allowed to get away with it by the umpires (not my conscience). If we
were sailing without umpires I would have never tried to cross him on
port. I did in this situation because I was 1) desperate and 2) I
knew with umpires it was going to be 50/50. Sorry Thomas.
Matt's argument about a 6th place boat being advantaged to continually
foul is a problem inherent to the game. But, with or without umpires
this advantage doesn't change. The losing team is always encouraged
to foul or create a protest. Amazingly, this doesn't happen as often
in non-umpired races. Why? Because a non-umpired race is sailed in a
different culture. At least give the umpired race the opportunity to
sail in that culture. Active umpires will take this opportunity away.
Take the Charles River Open. Lots of 3 minute justice. The ultimate
form of competitor regulation. If you're a jerk it carries with you
so be cool and spin.
The reason the US is better than everybody else at team racing is
because our cost to compete is lower than theirs so we do it more.
One reason it is lower is because we have a culture that allows us to
team race without umpires. That culture is a result of people
respecting their competitors and the rules. An actively umpired race
requires no respect at all between competitors. It can and will
devolve into a race that is sailed only by the rules the umpires can
enforce. That is not fun and not where we want to go. It will rely
much more heavily on the umpires than we do now.
If we team race under only the rules the umpires enforce, the umpired
race will become so grossly different than the non-umpired races they
will become completely different games. So different that it won't be
worth practicing for an umpired event without umpires. Thus the cost
of entry to compete goes up, competition goes down and then the level
we all play the game at also goes down. Have you ever tried to match
race without umpires? How many local no-frills match race regattas
have you attended?
The only way to keep the non-umpired race and umpired race the same is
to give the competitors discretion over whether or not to involve an
umpire. That and a healthy respect for your competitor. If you want
to have active umpires, Appendix D should start with "D1.0 Delete Rule
2."
I'm fine with one flag. As long as it is to turn the umpires on.
Pete
PS, while we're at it... Why do we keep changing the rules? What is
written into rule one year is deemed a loophole the next? No other
sport does this. Try talking team racing with somebody who team raced
in the early 90s or 80s. Impossible. Yes, some changes are for the
better. 360 instead of 2.5 point green flags. That was a good one.
Do you wonder why some of the great older sailors don't just show up
at an event? Because they have no clue what the rules are because
they changed twice since they last did this.
On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Matthew Knowles
sean....@ldcommodities.com
Dec 7, 2009, 8:26:09 PM12/7/09
to Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA
Impressive, completely agree.
Pete Levesque
<pete.levesque@gm
ail.com> To
Sent by: Matthew Knowles
ustra+owner@googl <matthew...@gmail.com>
egroups.com cc
Ben Spiller <bt.sp...@gmail.com>,
USTRA <us...@googlegroups.com>
12/07/2009 08:11 Subject
PM Re: It’s Time for the Single Flag
Matthew Knowles
Dec 7, 2009, 8:50:45 PM12/7/09
to Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA
Pete-
I feel like we agree on most things except the conclusion.
Our sport is different from match racing. That's a good thing, and we
should keep it that way.
And it's very cool that we have a culture in the US that allows us to
go out and have team races without umpires at 95% of our events. I
think the level of sportsmanship on the circuit is exceptionally high,
and thats one of the reasons that we keep doing it. But this one flag
- two flag thing just has nothing to do with that.
If you want to get rid of umps, and think it'll work, then let's do
it. But I think that experience shows that, even in the US, at the
very top events where qualification spots or a national title is on
the line, we need umps. otherwise it will eventually get ugly. but if
you disagree then let's get rid of umps at the hinman, it'll save a
lot of volunteers a lot of time and airfare.
In match racing, if you foul someone or hit a mark, no one expects you
to spin. They write it right into rule 2. I think that's BS, and I'm
glad we don't have that attitude in teams. But again, I just don't
understand how one flag - two flag changes our game.
> 1 flag is fine as long as that flag turns the umpire on. What you are
> proposing Matt is an active umpire. One that is free to interject
> himself into the race when he thinks he clearly sees an incident after
> he is satisfied there is a valid protest and nobody is going to spin.
the change to 1 flag doesn't allow the umps to get in the game without
a competitor protest in a situation where they coudln't in 2 flag. you
keep raising this "active umpire" argument but it's just not the case.
the umps are there watching the race and if asked to make a decision
they do. we're just talking about the procedure used to ask for the
ruling. what you want is to be able to protest then change your mind.
if you don't want the umpires to get involved, then don't protest,
it's easy. or yell protest but don't raise the flag. that doesn't mean
your competitor won't spin, right, based on the sportsmanship you're
describing? you just want to basically count on the other guy not
calling your bluff (i.e., you want to be able to protest, have him
think you'll call for the ump if you don't spin...)
> The rules encourage match racers to lie and here's how: If you are
> losing a match race create an umpire situation because then it becomes
> 50/50. "Umpire situation" is a nice way of saying foul, take an
> advantage you don't legally have and try to get away with it. For the
> same reason, match racers are also encouraged to create contact. By
> the way, the fouling competitor is knowingly creating a situation they
> are wrong in and asking the umpire for a judgement because they know
> the umpires are just as likely to get the call wrong as they are to
> get it right. The whole premise of this "tactic" is that the umpire
> is really likely to get it wrong, about 50% likely. It is a desperate
> tactic and one I admit I have used.
>
Two things:
first, if someone wants to sail in the dishonest and cheesy way you
describe, they will do so just as much in 2 flag as 1 flag. how is the
change relevant there? if the guy in 6th in the 236 wants to play like
that, how does 2 flag stop him in a way 1 flag doesn't?
second, if you really believe umps are 50% likely to get it wrong,
then that means they do no better than coin flip. if that's the case
then get rid of umps. just flip a coin for each protest. it's quick
and easy.
> Matt's argument about a 6th place boat being advantaged to continually
> foul is a problem inherent to the game. But, with or without umpires
> this advantage doesn't change. The losing team is always encouraged
> to foul or create a protest. Amazingly, this doesn't happen as often
> in non-umpired races. Why? Because a non-umpired race is sailed in a
> different culture. At least give the umpired race the opportunity to
> sail in that culture. Active umpires will take this opportunity away.
> Take the Charles River Open. Lots of 3 minute justice. The ultimate
> form of competitor regulation. If you're a jerk it carries with you
> so be cool and spin.
another argument to get rid of umps. if you think that'll work, we
should do it. i'm not being sarcastic here, i mean it.
> The reason the US is better than everybody else at team racing is
> because our cost to compete is lower than theirs so we do it more.
> One reason it is lower is because we have a culture that allows us to
> team race without umpires. That culture is a result of people
> respecting their competitors and the rules. An actively umpired race
> requires no respect at all between competitors.
again why does 1 flag change that compared to 2 flag? if the
competitors respect each other they will spin when they think they
were wrong, and not try to cause incidents to draw fouls. the umps
won't be involved at all.
> If we team race under only the rules the umpires enforce, the umpired
> race will become so grossly different than the non-umpired races they
> will become completely different games.
i agree. no one wants to sail under rules that only the umps enforce.
1 flag doesn't do this. if i think i'm wrong, i spin, it doesn't
matter if we have 1 flag, 2, or 9 flags.
> The only way to keep the non-umpired race and umpired race the same is
> to give the competitors discretion over whether or not to involve an
> umpire. That and a healthy respect for your competitor. If you want
> to have active umpires, Appendix D should start with "D1.0 Delete Rule
> 2."
i agree we should give competitors control over whether to involve the
umps. they have this control in 1 flag.
> PS, while we're at it... Why do we keep changing the rules? What is
> written into rule one year is deemed a loophole the next? No other
> sport does this.
the nfl changes it's rules every year about what is pass interference.
only they don't even have clear rules just vague interpretations.
nascar rules change all the time. i could list a lot more.
> Try talking team racing with somebody who team raced
> in the early 90s or 80s. Impossible. Yes, some changes are for the
> better. 360 instead of 2.5 point green flags. That was a good one.
> Do you wonder why some of the great older sailors don't just show up
> at an event? Because they have no clue what the rules are because
> they changed twice since they last did this.
the problem is sometimes its hard to know a good change without trying
it. i'm sure plenty of people complained when green flags went away,
saying how that got umpires too involved, etc etc etc.
I feel like we agree on most things except the conclusion.
Our sport is different from match racing. That's a good thing, and we
should keep it that way.
And it's very cool that we have a culture in the US that allows us to
go out and have team races without umpires at 95% of our events. I
think the level of sportsmanship on the circuit is exceptionally high,
and thats one of the reasons that we keep doing it. But this one flag
- two flag thing just has nothing to do with that.
If you want to get rid of umps, and think it'll work, then let's do
it. But I think that experience shows that, even in the US, at the
very top events where qualification spots or a national title is on
the line, we need umps. otherwise it will eventually get ugly. but if
you disagree then let's get rid of umps at the hinman, it'll save a
lot of volunteers a lot of time and airfare.
In match racing, if you foul someone or hit a mark, no one expects you
to spin. They write it right into rule 2. I think that's BS, and I'm
glad we don't have that attitude in teams. But again, I just don't
understand how one flag - two flag changes our game.
> 1 flag is fine as long as that flag turns the umpire on. What you are
> proposing Matt is an active umpire. One that is free to interject
> himself into the race when he thinks he clearly sees an incident after
> he is satisfied there is a valid protest and nobody is going to spin.
a competitor protest in a situation where they coudln't in 2 flag. you
keep raising this "active umpire" argument but it's just not the case.
the umps are there watching the race and if asked to make a decision
they do. we're just talking about the procedure used to ask for the
ruling. what you want is to be able to protest then change your mind.
if you don't want the umpires to get involved, then don't protest,
it's easy. or yell protest but don't raise the flag. that doesn't mean
your competitor won't spin, right, based on the sportsmanship you're
describing? you just want to basically count on the other guy not
calling your bluff (i.e., you want to be able to protest, have him
think you'll call for the ump if you don't spin...)
> The rules encourage match racers to lie and here's how: If you are
> losing a match race create an umpire situation because then it becomes
> 50/50. "Umpire situation" is a nice way of saying foul, take an
> advantage you don't legally have and try to get away with it. For the
> same reason, match racers are also encouraged to create contact. By
> the way, the fouling competitor is knowingly creating a situation they
> are wrong in and asking the umpire for a judgement because they know
> the umpires are just as likely to get the call wrong as they are to
> get it right. The whole premise of this "tactic" is that the umpire
> is really likely to get it wrong, about 50% likely. It is a desperate
> tactic and one I admit I have used.
>
first, if someone wants to sail in the dishonest and cheesy way you
describe, they will do so just as much in 2 flag as 1 flag. how is the
change relevant there? if the guy in 6th in the 236 wants to play like
that, how does 2 flag stop him in a way 1 flag doesn't?
second, if you really believe umps are 50% likely to get it wrong,
then that means they do no better than coin flip. if that's the case
then get rid of umps. just flip a coin for each protest. it's quick
and easy.
> Matt's argument about a 6th place boat being advantaged to continually
> foul is a problem inherent to the game. But, with or without umpires
> this advantage doesn't change. The losing team is always encouraged
> to foul or create a protest. Amazingly, this doesn't happen as often
> in non-umpired races. Why? Because a non-umpired race is sailed in a
> different culture. At least give the umpired race the opportunity to
> sail in that culture. Active umpires will take this opportunity away.
> Take the Charles River Open. Lots of 3 minute justice. The ultimate
> form of competitor regulation. If you're a jerk it carries with you
> so be cool and spin.
should do it. i'm not being sarcastic here, i mean it.
> The reason the US is better than everybody else at team racing is
> because our cost to compete is lower than theirs so we do it more.
> One reason it is lower is because we have a culture that allows us to
> team race without umpires. That culture is a result of people
> respecting their competitors and the rules. An actively umpired race
> requires no respect at all between competitors.
competitors respect each other they will spin when they think they
were wrong, and not try to cause incidents to draw fouls. the umps
won't be involved at all.
> If we team race under only the rules the umpires enforce, the umpired
> race will become so grossly different than the non-umpired races they
> will become completely different games.
1 flag doesn't do this. if i think i'm wrong, i spin, it doesn't
matter if we have 1 flag, 2, or 9 flags.
> The only way to keep the non-umpired race and umpired race the same is
> to give the competitors discretion over whether or not to involve an
> umpire. That and a healthy respect for your competitor. If you want
> to have active umpires, Appendix D should start with "D1.0 Delete Rule
> 2."
umps. they have this control in 1 flag.
> PS, while we're at it... Why do we keep changing the rules? What is
> written into rule one year is deemed a loophole the next? No other
> sport does this.
only they don't even have clear rules just vague interpretations.
nascar rules change all the time. i could list a lot more.
> Try talking team racing with somebody who team raced
> in the early 90s or 80s. Impossible. Yes, some changes are for the
> better. 360 instead of 2.5 point green flags. That was a good one.
> Do you wonder why some of the great older sailors don't just show up
> at an event? Because they have no clue what the rules are because
> they changed twice since they last did this.
it. i'm sure plenty of people complained when green flags went away,
saying how that got umpires too involved, etc etc etc.
Francis E Charles
Dec 7, 2009, 8:52:00 PM12/7/09
to sean....@ldcommodities.com, Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA
Dear Matt-
The simplicity of the one flag system is welcome especially when the action is
very furious and boat handling must be flawless as well. However, I do not
think that it is simply an easy procedural change to move away from the 2 flag
system. I have often umpired races with competitors having strong
disagreements
upon right of way with neither team trusting the umpires to make the 'right'
decision on their behalf. The better racers simply don't want to go to an
umpire and this is especially true in breezy conditions.
The single flag system asks the umpires to get involved as soon as the hail is
heard and a flag is shown. There is no retraction or second thought as to
whether or not you want to let that one go and teach them a thing or
two on the
way to the finish line or after the race. If you delay in filing by
not hailing
the word protest or displaying your flag then, the incident will not be
able to
go to the umpires. Under the 2 flag system there is a second thought before
tossing it to your umpires. And I suggest that most great sailors will
hesitate
before throwing the race to the folks in a motorboat.
The umpires are going to be much more of a factor in deciding race
outcomes and
I don't think that is a positive direction for the team racing discipline of
our sport to turn. It's a good idea in theory because of simplicity but, in
application, it throws many more decisions to the umpires and that is a shift
towards that match racing game- yuck. A second thought still allows the
competitors to enforce the rules and win a race without the help of an umpire.
Umpires often don't make all the right calls and that's simply a fact.
That's just another perspective.
Franny Charles
The simplicity of the one flag system is welcome especially when the action is
very furious and boat handling must be flawless as well. However, I do not
think that it is simply an easy procedural change to move away from the 2 flag
system. I have often umpired races with competitors having strong
disagreements
upon right of way with neither team trusting the umpires to make the 'right'
decision on their behalf. The better racers simply don't want to go to an
umpire and this is especially true in breezy conditions.
The single flag system asks the umpires to get involved as soon as the hail is
heard and a flag is shown. There is no retraction or second thought as to
whether or not you want to let that one go and teach them a thing or
two on the
way to the finish line or after the race. If you delay in filing by
not hailing
the word protest or displaying your flag then, the incident will not be
able to
go to the umpires. Under the 2 flag system there is a second thought before
tossing it to your umpires. And I suggest that most great sailors will
hesitate
before throwing the race to the folks in a motorboat.
The umpires are going to be much more of a factor in deciding race
outcomes and
I don't think that is a positive direction for the team racing discipline of
our sport to turn. It's a good idea in theory because of simplicity but, in
application, it throws many more decisions to the umpires and that is a shift
towards that match racing game- yuck. A second thought still allows the
competitors to enforce the rules and win a race without the help of an umpire.
Umpires often don't make all the right calls and that's simply a fact.
That's just another perspective.
Franny Charles
Bryan McDonald
Dec 8, 2009, 12:31:52 AM12/8/09
to Francis E Charles, sean....@ldcommodities.com, Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA
Franny, if my track record with calls was as bad as yours, I'd fear the
single flag system too... just kidding :))
All kidding aside (Fran is one of the best umpires I've worked with), I'm a
fan of the single flag system because of the simplification and it's NOT a
game changer.
I think juxtaposing the single flag system with the stigma of match racing
is like calling panda a bunch of fascists...neither statement is true.
Match racing FUNDAMENTALLY changes the racing rules when they add to the
fair sailing rule "ŒWhen racing, a boat need not take a penalty unless
signalled to do so by an umpire.¹"
The single flag system makes no such change (thank goodness).
For the elite of team racing that want to keep the umpires out of their
race, the workaround is simple: hail protest but don't fly your flag. (The
isomorphism in the two flag system is to hail protest but never hail
umpire.)
From a racing point of view, the single flag system is FAR simpler. As an
umpire, I HATE closing out an incident when a competitor fails to follow the
correct procedure with the two flag system. Procedural mistakes should
happen far less with the single flag system. That's my #1 reason for
advocating this change.
I don't see the single flag system giving umpires more power (if that were
the case, I would not advocate it). As an umpire, I'm a fan of doing what
sailors want. Making things simpler seems like a thing that most sailors
would want. That's why I recommend trying the single flag system. If it
fails, we can always go back to the two flag system. Not trying it in the
first place since you can't teach an old trick to a new dog does not make
sense to me.
Pete said "Why do we keep changing the rules? ... No other sport does this."
OK, I don't think that's true. I coach my son's basketball team and we have
a brand new player advantage rule this season. Why did the NJB change that
rule? It looks to me that the new rule is better.
If we can change a rule to make it better, that's a good thing in my book.
Respectfully submitted,
bryan mcdonald
single flag system too... just kidding :))
All kidding aside (Fran is one of the best umpires I've worked with), I'm a
fan of the single flag system because of the simplification and it's NOT a
game changer.
I think juxtaposing the single flag system with the stigma of match racing
is like calling panda a bunch of fascists...neither statement is true.
Match racing FUNDAMENTALLY changes the racing rules when they add to the
fair sailing rule "ŒWhen racing, a boat need not take a penalty unless
signalled to do so by an umpire.¹"
The single flag system makes no such change (thank goodness).
For the elite of team racing that want to keep the umpires out of their
race, the workaround is simple: hail protest but don't fly your flag. (The
isomorphism in the two flag system is to hail protest but never hail
umpire.)
From a racing point of view, the single flag system is FAR simpler. As an
umpire, I HATE closing out an incident when a competitor fails to follow the
correct procedure with the two flag system. Procedural mistakes should
happen far less with the single flag system. That's my #1 reason for
advocating this change.
I don't see the single flag system giving umpires more power (if that were
the case, I would not advocate it). As an umpire, I'm a fan of doing what
sailors want. Making things simpler seems like a thing that most sailors
would want. That's why I recommend trying the single flag system. If it
fails, we can always go back to the two flag system. Not trying it in the
first place since you can't teach an old trick to a new dog does not make
sense to me.
Pete said "Why do we keep changing the rules? ... No other sport does this."
OK, I don't think that's true. I coach my son's basketball team and we have
a brand new player advantage rule this season. Why did the NJB change that
rule? It looks to me that the new rule is better.
If we can change a rule to make it better, that's a good thing in my book.
Respectfully submitted,
bryan mcdonald
Ken Legler
Dec 8, 2009, 11:06:35 AM12/8/09
to Bryan McDonald, Francis E Charles, sean....@ldcommodities.com, Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA
Great to see the US team racers and umpires taking a lead role here.
The British took the lead with the green flag penalty system and again
took the lead in getting rid of it. Then they took a big lead in umpiring.
It seems the crash course Matt Knowles took in team racing and rules at
Harvard is being put to good use. Perhaps this new system will be in
place in time for spring college season.
I sure wish we could get the non-English speaking nations to enjoy team
racing. American football doesn't translate well either while soccer
and match racing are universal but not as interesting.
Ken Legler
Bryan McDonald wrote:
> Franny, if my track record with calls was as bad as yours, I'd fear the
> single flag system too... just kidding :))
>
> All kidding aside (Fran is one of the best umpires I've worked with), I'm a
> fan of the single flag system because of the simplification and it's NOT a
> game changer.
>
> I think juxtaposing the single flag system with the stigma of match racing
> is like calling panda a bunch of fascists...neither statement is true.
>
> Match racing FUNDAMENTALLY changes the racing rules when they add to the
> fair sailing rule "�When racing, a boat need not take a penalty unless
> signalled to do so by an umpire.�"
The British took the lead with the green flag penalty system and again
took the lead in getting rid of it. Then they took a big lead in umpiring.
It seems the crash course Matt Knowles took in team racing and rules at
Harvard is being put to good use. Perhaps this new system will be in
place in time for spring college season.
I sure wish we could get the non-English speaking nations to enjoy team
racing. American football doesn't translate well either while soccer
and match racing are universal but not as interesting.
Ken Legler
Bryan McDonald wrote:
> Franny, if my track record with calls was as bad as yours, I'd fear the
> single flag system too... just kidding :))
>
> All kidding aside (Fran is one of the best umpires I've worked with), I'm a
> fan of the single flag system because of the simplification and it's NOT a
> game changer.
>
> I think juxtaposing the single flag system with the stigma of match racing
> is like calling panda a bunch of fascists...neither statement is true.
>
> Match racing FUNDAMENTALLY changes the racing rules when they add to the
> signalled to do so by an umpire.�"
Bernhard Noack
Dec 8, 2009, 3:19:02 PM12/8/09
to Francis E Charles, sean....@ldcommodities.com, Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA
I think Franny has an important point. It seems the biggest difference
is that a competitor has a time delay to decide whether to bring it to
the umpires or not with a two flag system. In a one flag system no delay
is allowed for as the protest is not valid with delay, but brings the
umpire instantaneously if valid(not delayed). By the way, under the
current two flag system can the protested boat call for an umpire after
not having yelled protest and not having raised the flag ?
is that a competitor has a time delay to decide whether to bring it to
the umpires or not with a two flag system. In a one flag system no delay
is allowed for as the protest is not valid with delay, but brings the
umpire instantaneously if valid(not delayed). By the way, under the
current two flag system can the protested boat call for an umpire after
not having yelled protest and not having raised the flag ?
Bryan McDonald
Dec 8, 2009, 7:24:47 PM12/8/09
to Bernhard Noack, Francis E Charles, sean....@ldcommodities.com, Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA
I think the majority of the time a competitor hails protest and the
protested boat does not spin, there is a follow on call to umpire.
For the rare circumstance, if one does not want to bring the umpires in with
the single flag system, the procedure is simple: hail protest and don't fly
your flag. I don't see this as a game changer as it's similar to not hailing
umpire in the two flag system.
The advantages of the simplification with the single flag system, I think,
are very worth trying this out.
"under the current two flag system can the protested boat call for an umpire
after not having yelled protest and not having raised the flag ?"
D2.2(a) says "...the protesting boat may request a decision by conspicuously
displaying a yellow flag and hailing ŒUmpire¹."
My opinion would be that there is no rule to allow for the protested boat to
call for an umpire.
Thanks, bry
protested boat does not spin, there is a follow on call to umpire.
For the rare circumstance, if one does not want to bring the umpires in with
the single flag system, the procedure is simple: hail protest and don't fly
your flag. I don't see this as a game changer as it's similar to not hailing
umpire in the two flag system.
The advantages of the simplification with the single flag system, I think,
are very worth trying this out.
"under the current two flag system can the protested boat call for an umpire
after not having yelled protest and not having raised the flag ?"
displaying a yellow flag and hailing ŒUmpire¹."
My opinion would be that there is no rule to allow for the protested boat to
call for an umpire.
Thanks, bry
Bryan McDonald
Dec 8, 2009, 9:33:41 PM12/8/09
to Bryan McDonald, Bernhard Noack, Francis E Charles, sean....@ldcommodities.com, Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA
In scuttlebutt today from Bruce Hebbert, GBR Intl. Umpire: (re, team race flag system in #2987)
I recently umpired the US Hinman in glorious Marion Mass. Fantastic sailing
great organisation and an umpire system that in truth failed all. How, why?
The protest system requires 4 specific procedural steps. All of which have to
be in the right order and be seen or heard by the umpires. OK and this was in
strong winds and in very fast moving boats in tight multi boat incidents.
Forget getting the order right. I reckon that in difficult conditions the
probability of an umpire missing a flag or a hail is about 25%...10% in light
airs.
So the numbers speak for themselves…if you have the Two flag system the umpire
FAILURE rate is 68%; for the Single Flag system the Failure Rate is high but
this time 44%.
These are just numbers…but believe me that was what it was like. Around Two
thirds of all protests were greened either because they were not seen or the
process was invalid.
We have to have a better way…step 1 is obvious, but even with the Single flag
we need to get better. (Bruce Hebbert has been a high school and college coach
for 25 years, and a GBR IU with a specialisation in team racing. Bruce also
has umpired three US Team Racing Championships). -- Forum:
http://forum.sailingscuttlebutt.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=8710#8710
Sent from my new iPhone 3GS
I recently umpired the US Hinman in glorious Marion Mass. Fantastic sailing
great organisation and an umpire system that in truth failed all. How, why?
The protest system requires 4 specific procedural steps. All of which have to
be in the right order and be seen or heard by the umpires. OK and this was in
strong winds and in very fast moving boats in tight multi boat incidents.
Forget getting the order right. I reckon that in difficult conditions the
probability of an umpire missing a flag or a hail is about 25%...10% in light
airs.
So the numbers speak for themselves…if you have the Two flag system the umpire
FAILURE rate is 68%; for the Single Flag system the Failure Rate is high but
this time 44%.
These are just numbers…but believe me that was what it was like. Around Two
thirds of all protests were greened either because they were not seen or the
process was invalid.
We have to have a better way…step 1 is obvious, but even with the Single flag
we need to get better. (Bruce Hebbert has been a high school and college coach
for 25 years, and a GBR IU with a specialisation in team racing. Bruce also
has umpired three US Team Racing Championships). -- Forum:
http://forum.sailingscuttlebutt.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=8710#8710
Sent from my new iPhone 3GS
Matthew Lindblad
Dec 8, 2009, 10:30:53 PM12/8/09
to Bryan McDonald, Bernhard Noack, Francis E Charles, sean....@ldcommodities.com, Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA
Excellent debate. As someone who has crewed, skippered, and umpired at a competitive level in team racing, I see all of the perspectives. I had always thought of the yellow flag as a courtesy to the protested boat and the umpires. It allows a boat to take the lesser penalty (and do the right thing) and also visually signaled the umps that "protest" had been said and that a clear incident had occurred. That started the clock on giving the protested boat an opportunity to spin once, which is essential to preserving the fabric and culture of team racing.
I don't think team racing should have an immediate call system for umps for most of the reasons Pete identified (plus there might be a betting scandal involved). I think it is universally agreed by team racers that umps are an incredible bonus to the sport and a large part of the current popularity. Umps developed the call book, without which, we would be forever arguing and umps keep us out of the late night 5 or 6 boat protests that used to be the norm at good team racing regattas. God did that suck. Umps take the brunt of most losses, I still think the most ridiculous part of team racing is a guy yelling at an ump while they get farther behind or blaming the ump because they can't accept the blame themselves (or have never umped themselves.) The best teams realize that any umpire call is preventable by sailing better and no umpire call is the end of the race.
Matt mentioned that the single flag system could allow a boat to spin but the umps would flag once it was clear that no one was going to spin. I think the most dangerous scenario that most team racers would worry about is how long they have to spin a 360 with the single flag system before the umps make a call. Also, ensuring that protest is actually hailed and acknowledged by both boats, easily identified with the yellow but tougher with one flag. One example is an obvious foul, hail protest with no flag, umps or competitor doesn't hear the hail, protester waits for a spin, no circle, then fly the red. There could be 20 seconds between the foul and the flag, as opposed to an immediate yellow and then a red, still 20 seconds but still traceable to the original incident. Do we think that there would be less or more green flags while trying to keep track of protesting incidents?
If the goal is to reduce green flags for procedural flag issues, more leeway should be given to the protesting boat. For instance, you can go quickly (or directly) from yellow to red BUT the protested boat is still given 7-10 sec to clear and spin. Some situations you want to courtesy yellow, then red. Others, you know you were fouled and can go straight to yellow then red very quickly. I suppose this modified system could allow someone to go right to red. Who knows, we might wind up with the single flag system pretty quickly, or the trend might be to yellow as usual. It might be a nice thing to try at a non-championship umped regatta.
If the goal is to reduce the burden on the crew, I don't think it's an issue with a little practice. College sailing uses a hail, then a raised hand to indicate umpire. It works, but I think slow boats, smaller venues/less average breeze help. I think the 2 flag system is more transferable to faster boats, windier venues,and keelboats. I think it would be good to hear from umps that have experience at the college level. Is the hail sufficient to indicate the incident and the hand/"umpire" call enough notification?
I like Pete's attention to master's level team racers but I think there are more out there doing it at the club level (or wanting to) than we see. I am involved in a pretty big effort in Marblehead to involve young and older sailors alike in team racing (more info on this soon.) I do think the rules are a somewhat daunting barrier, but it would be similar if you were time warped 15 yrs in the future sailing a fleet race as well. (15 yrs ago I think we still had mast abeam). The onus is on us as active team racers to work hard to share it not only with the next generation but the ones that preceded us. I know Pete has actively engaged multiple generations of team racers and given/gives a ton of time back to sailing. It is up to us to bring our information and experience back to our home clubs and sailing associations and also create fun team racing opportunities for everyone. One thing I have learned through my coaching is that although it is sometimes not pretty, team racing is fun for anyone when it is reasonably even teams. Just like when I play basketball, it doesn't have to be fun to watch to be fun to do! As long as there is respect for the game and the competition, it is productive and shouting matches can be avoided.
Thanks for reading,
MattMatthew Lindblad
Assistant Sailing Master
Head Coach, MIT Varsity Sailing
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
(617) 253-4884
mit...@mit.edu
I don't think team racing should have an immediate call system for umps for most of the reasons Pete identified (plus there might be a betting scandal involved). I think it is universally agreed by team racers that umps are an incredible bonus to the sport and a large part of the current popularity. Umps developed the call book, without which, we would be forever arguing and umps keep us out of the late night 5 or 6 boat protests that used to be the norm at good team racing regattas. God did that suck. Umps take the brunt of most losses, I still think the most ridiculous part of team racing is a guy yelling at an ump while they get farther behind or blaming the ump because they can't accept the blame themselves (or have never umped themselves.) The best teams realize that any umpire call is preventable by sailing better and no umpire call is the end of the race.
Matt mentioned that the single flag system could allow a boat to spin but the umps would flag once it was clear that no one was going to spin. I think the most dangerous scenario that most team racers would worry about is how long they have to spin a 360 with the single flag system before the umps make a call. Also, ensuring that protest is actually hailed and acknowledged by both boats, easily identified with the yellow but tougher with one flag. One example is an obvious foul, hail protest with no flag, umps or competitor doesn't hear the hail, protester waits for a spin, no circle, then fly the red. There could be 20 seconds between the foul and the flag, as opposed to an immediate yellow and then a red, still 20 seconds but still traceable to the original incident. Do we think that there would be less or more green flags while trying to keep track of protesting incidents?
If the goal is to reduce green flags for procedural flag issues, more leeway should be given to the protesting boat. For instance, you can go quickly (or directly) from yellow to red BUT the protested boat is still given 7-10 sec to clear and spin. Some situations you want to courtesy yellow, then red. Others, you know you were fouled and can go straight to yellow then red very quickly. I suppose this modified system could allow someone to go right to red. Who knows, we might wind up with the single flag system pretty quickly, or the trend might be to yellow as usual. It might be a nice thing to try at a non-championship umped regatta.
If the goal is to reduce the burden on the crew, I don't think it's an issue with a little practice. College sailing uses a hail, then a raised hand to indicate umpire. It works, but I think slow boats, smaller venues/less average breeze help. I think the 2 flag system is more transferable to faster boats, windier venues,and keelboats. I think it would be good to hear from umps that have experience at the college level. Is the hail sufficient to indicate the incident and the hand/"umpire" call enough notification?
I like Pete's attention to master's level team racers but I think there are more out there doing it at the club level (or wanting to) than we see. I am involved in a pretty big effort in Marblehead to involve young and older sailors alike in team racing (more info on this soon.) I do think the rules are a somewhat daunting barrier, but it would be similar if you were time warped 15 yrs in the future sailing a fleet race as well. (15 yrs ago I think we still had mast abeam). The onus is on us as active team racers to work hard to share it not only with the next generation but the ones that preceded us. I know Pete has actively engaged multiple generations of team racers and given/gives a ton of time back to sailing. It is up to us to bring our information and experience back to our home clubs and sailing associations and also create fun team racing opportunities for everyone. One thing I have learned through my coaching is that although it is sometimes not pretty, team racing is fun for anyone when it is reasonably even teams. Just like when I play basketball, it doesn't have to be fun to watch to be fun to do! As long as there is respect for the game and the competition, it is productive and shouting matches can be avoided.
Thanks for reading,
Matt
Assistant Sailing Master
Head Coach, MIT Varsity Sailing
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
(617) 253-4884
mit...@mit.edu
Bryan McDonald
Dec 9, 2009, 10:00:27 AM12/9/09
to Matthew Lindblad, Bernhard Noack, Francis E Charles, sean....@ldcommodities.com, Pete Levesque, Ben Spiller, USTRA, Adam Werblow
Adam gave me permission to share this:
Simple elegance--I am absolutely for it.
Sent from my iPod
Sent from my new iPhone 3GS
Tim
Dec 9, 2009, 10:32:23 AM12/9/09
to USTRA
I like our current system, but would argue for a slight modification
to it:
I'd like to see a 2-step, 1 flag sytem:
First step, a protesting boat must hail protest and the skipper must
raise his/her hand in the air immediately. (This lets everyone know
"something has happened" and there is a disagreement). It's now up
to the two boats to sort out their differences. If they cannot, then
it can be sent to the umpires.
Second step is a yellow flag and a hail of umpire. This step must be
delayed from the first step by some preset amount of time (5 seconds?)
The umpire makes a decesion only after the yellow, and only after the
protested boat has had enough time to get clear and take one-turn.
With the current system, this is how the procedure works in our boat:
(1) Incident happens, and I hail "protest" to the other boat. If I
don't get an immediate verbal response from the other skipper and I
want to procede then I tell Ery "fly the red"
(2) She digs around for the flag, or pulls it out of her life jacket,
shows the flag to the umpire (not the competitor), and hails "protest"
towards the umpire
(3) I look around at the race, think about my chances of sucess with
a protest, and decide if I'm going to fly yellow (if I can see they
are already going for yellow, then I don't do anything). If I want to
and need to, then say "fly the yellow" to Ery.
(4) She digs this flag out, shows it to the umprie, and hails
"umpire" towards the umpire.
With what I'm proposing we just get rid of step 2. This step is
purely procedural, and adds no "value". The competitor already knows
we are protesting and the umpire is just looking for the flag and hail
as part of a procedure. There is no decesion happening at this point,
and no new information is shared (the competitor knows I'm protesting,
and the umpire see's the red flag as only a portion of the necessary
procedure).
The only reasonable counterarguement I've heard to this "2-step, 1
flag" system is that people could "game it" by saying protest quietly
under their breath, waiting 5 seconds, and then flying yellow, in an
effort to get a two-turn penalty on someone vs a single turn. To
prevent this, I would suggest two subtle modifications to the rule.
(1) When someone flies the yellow, there is still a short window of
time where a competitor can do one-turn before the decesion is made by
the umpire. (2) if the umpires are CERTAIN the first step procedure
was not followed before the seconds step they can penalize the boat
that flew the yellow.
We got rid of the red flag for protests in fleet racing, and decided a
hail was sufficient, so why wouldn't we just drop the flag requirement
for team racing as well?
Tim
to it:
I'd like to see a 2-step, 1 flag sytem:
First step, a protesting boat must hail protest and the skipper must
raise his/her hand in the air immediately. (This lets everyone know
"something has happened" and there is a disagreement). It's now up
to the two boats to sort out their differences. If they cannot, then
it can be sent to the umpires.
Second step is a yellow flag and a hail of umpire. This step must be
delayed from the first step by some preset amount of time (5 seconds?)
The umpire makes a decesion only after the yellow, and only after the
protested boat has had enough time to get clear and take one-turn.
With the current system, this is how the procedure works in our boat:
(1) Incident happens, and I hail "protest" to the other boat. If I
don't get an immediate verbal response from the other skipper and I
want to procede then I tell Ery "fly the red"
(2) She digs around for the flag, or pulls it out of her life jacket,
shows the flag to the umpire (not the competitor), and hails "protest"
towards the umpire
(3) I look around at the race, think about my chances of sucess with
a protest, and decide if I'm going to fly yellow (if I can see they
are already going for yellow, then I don't do anything). If I want to
and need to, then say "fly the yellow" to Ery.
(4) She digs this flag out, shows it to the umprie, and hails
"umpire" towards the umpire.
With what I'm proposing we just get rid of step 2. This step is
purely procedural, and adds no "value". The competitor already knows
we are protesting and the umpire is just looking for the flag and hail
as part of a procedure. There is no decesion happening at this point,
and no new information is shared (the competitor knows I'm protesting,
and the umpire see's the red flag as only a portion of the necessary
procedure).
The only reasonable counterarguement I've heard to this "2-step, 1
flag" system is that people could "game it" by saying protest quietly
under their breath, waiting 5 seconds, and then flying yellow, in an
effort to get a two-turn penalty on someone vs a single turn. To
prevent this, I would suggest two subtle modifications to the rule.
(1) When someone flies the yellow, there is still a short window of
time where a competitor can do one-turn before the decesion is made by
the umpire. (2) if the umpires are CERTAIN the first step procedure
was not followed before the seconds step they can penalize the boat
that flew the yellow.
We got rid of the red flag for protests in fleet racing, and decided a
hail was sufficient, so why wouldn't we just drop the flag requirement
for team racing as well?
Tim
AMANDA D CALLAHAN
Dec 9, 2009, 10:42:52 AM12/9/09
to Tim, USTRA
Amen Tim, a very reasonable compromise.
I like it, so long as the protest hail is accompanied by the skipper/crew hand raise to clarify that a hail has been made, particularly in heavy wind.
I like it, so long as the protest hail is accompanied by the skipper/crew hand raise to clarify that a hail has been made, particularly in heavy wind.
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