pretty damning report

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Harrow, Kenneth

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Jan 7, 2022, 6:50:37 AM1/7/22
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if true, the belgians are revealed as truly ugly colonialists:
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

segun...@gmail.com

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Jan 7, 2022, 10:42:03 AM1/7/22
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Ken, is there any amongst them that is not “truly ugly colonialists”? Please read, “CIA Dirty Works in Africa”. 
Ogungbemi. 

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On Jan 7, 2022, at 5:50 AM, Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu> wrote:


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Harrow, Kenneth

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Jan 8, 2022, 12:36:50 AM1/8/22
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ogungbemi,
well, i suppose en principe you are right. however, not all experiences of colonialism were the same. what was the same, i believe, is that colonialism was mislabeled. it was a conquest, that rationalized itself in the late 19th century as a missionary act of bringing civilization.
the work of african authors, i know, was to expose the lie.
but that is different from blatantly ordering the murder of opposition political figures. i don't think a good historian would say every experience of colonialism was the same. the brutality of the belgians in the congo was pretty bad; was it worse under the french in congo brazzaville? depends on when we are talking about. same in all case: the regimes changed, the practices of some were worse than others.

in any event, this was pretty ugly. the belgians changed tactics in 1959 in rwanda, turning in favor of hutus (the hutu revolution) against their former allies, tutsis. but after independence, or even on the threshold as they were turning over power, an assassination would have been particularly repugnant.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of segun...@gmail.com <segun...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 10:34 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - pretty damning report
 

Ibukunolu A Babajide

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Jan 10, 2022, 12:11:06 PM1/10/22
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Ken,

You agree with Ogungbemi in principle  All colonialism is physical and mental conquest.  Leave it at that.  The degree of evil is not the issue at stake.  All carnivores kill and eat their prey.  Whether they swallow them, eat them raw, or boil, cook or roast the meat, the baseline is the killing.  That is the bottom line.  There are many ways to skin a cat.

Cheers.

IBK


_________________________
Ibukunolu Alao Babajide (IBK)

AN ENGLISH NURSERY RHYME

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

But leaves the greater villain loose

Who steals the common from off the goose

 

The law demands that we atone

When we take things that we do not own

But leaves the lords and ladies fine

Who take things that are yours and mine

 

The poor and wretched don’t escape

If they conspire the law to break

This must be so but they endure

Those who conspire to make the law

 

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

And geese will still a common lack

Till they go and steal it back

 -        Anonymous (circa 1764)



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB5191AE74819F94E5A6616340DA4D9%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

Harrow, Kenneth

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Jan 11, 2022, 1:54:38 AM1/11/22
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dear ibk,
i agree totally; the face and nature of colonialism was basically the same: conquer and then take.

historians are different from us simple public commentators. it is not an interesting question to ask, which was worse. it is interesting, very interesting, to ask, how did they differ in practice, and what were the historical consequences.
take three examples: senegal, the gambia, and guinea-bissau. three relatively small countries, sharing tons--many ethnic groups, geography, languages, religions, more or less.
but
three totally different colonial encounters and consequences.
why? what was the impact and result? what a huge question, and with fascinating speculation for answers.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ibukunolu A Babajide <ibk...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 6:53 AM
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segun...@gmail.com

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Jan 11, 2022, 1:54:38 AM1/11/22
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Ken,
Colonialism anywhere and everywhere in Africa was exploitation of human and natural resources of Africans. If this proposition is true, which l believe to be true, therefore the experience is the same. 
Beyond this fact Ken, colonialism is a moral evil. There is no reason to subtly justify colonialism. It does not command any moral warrant, in my opinion. 
Ogungbemi. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2022, at 11:11 AM, Ibukunolu A Babajide <ibk...@gmail.com> wrote:



Oluwatoyin Adepoju

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Jan 11, 2022, 11:24:24 PM1/11/22
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If Africans were not colonised, what would have been the implications for scribal literacy, which was low on the continent?

If Africans were not colonised, what would have been the implications for the unquestioned dominance of classical African religions, as opposed to the greater pluralism, the range of choices, opened  up by the current co-existence of these religions and  Christianity?

Without passing through the colonial experience, would we be using an international language, English and chatting on the Internet?

All contemporary Africans are shaped by colonialism, particularly poignantly so those deeply invested in the globally dominant educational system, which has its origins in Europe and has little input in its methods  and understanding of reality from learning systems from other cultures. 

Would any such person prefer a classical African education to the Western one? Under what circumstances, outside the forceful coercion of colonialism,  would an informed choice between them or to integrate them have been possible?

Colonisation birthed the Universities of Ibadan and Makere, for example, pioneers in post-classical African scholarship, more critically oriented, more international in range of reference and communicative scope, than the earlier classical African systems of Ifa, among others. 

Is the current challenge not  one of synergy between these systems?

The creative possibilities represented by these  developments are  possible without colonisation but colonisation is the historical trajectory through which they emerged.

Ursula le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness and Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels visualise encounters between a space faring Terran civilisation and non-technological cultures, in which the Terrans are scrupulous about not interfering in the local culture on the planets they find themselves.

Its also true, I think, that Africans were visiting Europe before colonisation.

How best could we have benefited from what Europe had to offer, without having to pass through the still reverberating agonies of colonisation?

Perhaps I need to understand the colonial experience better. While not justifying the self serving so called civilising  missions of the colonisers, I think colonialism in Africa and perhaps Asia needs to be appreciated in more complex terms than that of binary good and evil.

A painful journey but one whose every segment is vital, in my view.

Abiola  Irele seems to develop a similar view in ''In Praise of Alienation.'' Biodun Jeyifo correlates Irele's perspective with what he describes as Louise Althusser's concept of an epistemological break, a rupture in a society's modes of existence that enables a higher level of development, an approach to the disruptions and creativities of colonialism which seems the best way to make the most of what has happened to us. 

thanks

toyin





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Ibukunolu A Babajide

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Jan 13, 2022, 6:29:50 AM1/13/22
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Toyin,

A toad at the bottom of a well can never appreciate the immensity of the sky.  Likewise, a stargazer bereft of the Hubble or James Webb telescopes can never appreciate the immensity of the universe.

The Eurocentric knowledge paradigm will never accommodate the hubris of those of us who are convinced that we would have fared better without their meddlesome interloping in the development of Africa.  Too many if's here.  A narrow example.  The Fulanis could have overrun the Yoruba kingdoms the way they overran the Hausawa.  Ibadan and her warriors could have sent them back to the Futa Jallon mountains.  A dozen possibilities span this simple scenario.  Internal African competition for power could have resulted in the praetorian prowess that will make African cultures wish to conquer the world.  Consistent violent and inhumane killings of each other created the sanitized European model that is covered with a humane veneer.  Very little savagery compares to that unleashed in Europe in the history of mankind. 

What could have been cannot be interrogated the way you suggest.  At best it will be a futile attempt at pure speculation.  Conquest destroys the conquered in many ways and creates in them a subservient and eviscerated culture.  That culture is adulterated and poisoned in dynamism and growth.  In law, the European conquerors deployed what they call the repugnance test.  Whatever Africans do, that they consider repugnant to their culture must be dissolved and never allowed to crystallize again.

In conclusion, we will never know.  We are conquered.

Cheers.

IBK


_________________________
Ibukunolu Alao Babajide (IBK)

AN ENGLISH NURSERY RHYME

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

But leaves the greater villain loose

Who steals the common from off the goose

 

The law demands that we atone

When we take things that we do not own

But leaves the lords and ladies fine

Who take things that are yours and mine

 

The poor and wretched don’t escape

If they conspire the law to break

This must be so but they endure

Those who conspire to make the law

 

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

And geese will still a common lack

Till they go and steal it back

 -        Anonymous (circa 1764)


To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfPNNgCrGp8i5yYnbbkcqYKLfEzFp969_N%2Bw3Ksheh4-Yg%40mail.gmail.com.

Harrow, Kenneth

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Jan 13, 2022, 6:30:46 AM1/13/22
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hi toyin, i don't think you are going to get exactly the answers you want as the prevailing ideology of almost all, if not all of those on this list is anti-colonial.
you are praising two things, crediting them to colonialism, and i respectfully disagree that colonialism's benefits were responsible.'
the first is cultural exchanges; i'd say, cultural and technological.
i believe all people on earth derived a portion of their knowledge/culture from indigenous production, and another from contacts from which they are imported. i read a wonderful book on medieval technology by lynn white, many years ago, where he demonstrated how many of the major breakthroughs, like the heavy plow or stirrup or even gunpowder were imported into europe, with massive impacts, like ending the food production of the dark ages and bringing about an end to medieval serf-lord relations. these were not the result of one people conquering another, but inevitably conquest will also entail a measure of cultural exchange, as when the romans conquered the greeks and were, in turn, intellectually dominated by the greeks. the same when the turks conquered arab lands, and were dominated by arab thinkers and culture.
more or less.

the europeans tried to limit and control this cultural contact so as to enable the conquest of africa and exploitation of its resources continue unabated, but they couldn't really succeed. they needed african help, africans educated in their languages and serving in their armies or services, and those africans inevitably had to rise within their systems and replace them.
remember how europeans barred africans from writing and publishing books or making films? the censorship was absolute. despite this, africans entered into the professions, learned the camerawork, went abroad, and made films published books collaborated with anticolonial presses and intellectuals.
this could be thought of as a benefit that accrued to africans despite the europeans and their policies.

we all experience alienation as we encounter others and especially enter into their worlds. irele's description of that entry into the european pleasures of education and opera was greeted with a great deal of dismay by almost all people i know. i was a good friend of irele, and i believe this set of values went with his acceptance of structuralism, levi-strauss, as seeing a higher value in these practices. he was willing to pay the price of alienation from home and home culture to enter into that new world. but we don't all quite see cultural exchanges as entailing such a reduction of Otherness. Fabian calls this allochronism or anti-coeval thought, based on the need for the Other to validate the same.
that's really the bottom line. All the elements you describe as benefits came at a price we are trying to assess. i agree it doesn;t help to put it in simple terms of yes or no, good or evil; but too much is lost when the alienation is viewed as a benefit without cost, and the losses discounted.

i can simplify what i said, too: you didn't need colonialism for african universities to have been created. when selassie fought off the colonialists, a university was established in addis without the need for italians.

i prefer thinking about this encounter as entailing collaborations with africans and europeans, often without choice entering in, and without europeans acknowledging their own debts to the africans they recruited or allied with.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2022 1:51 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Cornelius Hamelberg

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Jan 13, 2022, 6:31:28 AM1/13/22
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
This opinion piece in today's Vanguard addresses one of your questions:

Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Jan 13, 2022, 11:26:30 AM1/13/22
to Harrow, Kenneth, usaafric...@googlegroups.com
“You didn’t need colonialism for African 
universities to be created …….”harrow

That’s the fundamental point that TA
continues to miss. You didn’t need colonialism
to install railway tracks either. This could 
and should have been done in the context of
normal technological exchange or technology 
transfer among nations.

 It also pains me to hear the illogical argument
 that colonialism was necessary for literacy.
 Malians and others in the Sahel have written 
more than a million manuscripts over the 
centuries in Arabic. Should these be discounted
as non existent? You don’t have to be Arab
to write Arabic. Similarly you don’t have to
be Phoenician to innovate on the Phoenician
Writing system and produce a script that
we now call the Graeco- Roman script - that
many of us are using right now. Are you 
Phoenician, Toyin? And by the way, where
did the Phoenicians get those symbols from?

For those who carelessly use the label 
“pre-literate” and  “non-literate “for Africa 
as a whole, are you discounting the millions 
of manuscripts produced by Africans over 
a five thousand year period? Ancient 
northeast Africans produced countless
 manuscripts in Geez, Meroitic and
Hieroglyphics. Writing systems in fact emerged in
various parts of the continent over time
and would be used  in diverse contexts.
We have had this argument before,  so let me
not reinvent the wheel,  and let us not
continue to repeat the same Eurocentric 
errors. Let us soar above simplistic, structural
functionalist discourse.

TA, remember that Socrates, who you adore,
does not have a single piece of written paper to
his name. His rhetoric and orally delivered
argumentations endeared him to his associates 
and students, including Plato and Aristotle.
So let us also not discount the power of orality.

As for the transfer of technology from
Africa, Asia and the Americas to Europe-
well that would take up the entire day 
and much more, and to no avail, since
Toyin Adepoju would come back with
the same discredited arguments a few
 weeks, months and years from now.





Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:06 PM

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - pretty damning report
 

Please be cautious: **External Email**

Salimonu Kadiri

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Jan 16, 2022, 2:36:08 PM1/16/22
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Any education that cannot generate and distribute electric power to Nigerians is useless; any education that cannot drill crude oil and refine it for the domestic consumption of Nigerians is useless; any education that cannot mine Nigeria's iron ore and work it into steels at Ajaokuta is useless; any education that cannot liberate Nigerian pastoralists from nomadic grazing of cattle in the 21st century, through ranching, is a useless education; and any education that cannot pump and supply Nigerians with potable water is useless, etc. All Minitries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs) created and financed to provide necessary commodities that will make life comfortable for Nigerians are manned by educated Nigerians but with negative results. 

It is a self-humiliating assertion to say that we were nothing before colonialism and would have been nothing without colonialism. Dogs are not educated because they are trained to perform certain functions for their owners (controllers). Nigerians are not educated because they speak and write good English in the self-managed economic enslavement. Western education was not designed to serve the interest of Nigerians (Africans) but the interest of the colonialists, covert or overt. Niyi Osundare's views on ignorant educated Nigerians, illustrate what Nigeria has achieved economically and industrially. Follow the link below.
 ​S. Kadiri

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: 13 January 2022 01:21
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Ibukunolu A Babajide

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Jan 17, 2022, 4:42:23 PM1/17/22
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Ken,

This is very illuminating.  The Chinese were far more civilized than the Europeans by thousands of years.  They wrote and kept fine records.  Hieroglyphics was a kind of writing developed while Europeans were neanderthal cave dwellers.  The ideas of Irele and Senghor that they needed to drop their own knowledge systems to gain the benefit of an alien one which Toyin sees as a benefit of colonialism are flawed.

One point you made clear at the beginning is that such ideas in the forum are like a cockroach and the majority here are famished hens who rather than listen, will peck and digest the cockroach for nutrition.

Cheers.

IBK


_________________________
Ibukunolu Alao Babajide (IBK)

AN ENGLISH NURSERY RHYME

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

But leaves the greater villain loose

Who steals the common from off the goose

 

The law demands that we atone

When we take things that we do not own

But leaves the lords and ladies fine

Who take things that are yours and mine

 

The poor and wretched don’t escape

If they conspire the law to break

This must be so but they endure

Those who conspire to make the law

 

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

And geese will still a common lack

Till they go and steal it back

 -        Anonymous (circa 1764)


To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB5191927EA84B8B206620B03ADA529%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

Oluwatoyin Adepoju

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Jan 17, 2022, 4:42:23 PM1/17/22
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That is the education required to create and manage those technogical enablements you describe.

It's the education used by the West in developing itself.

Nigerians have gained that eduction in Nigeria as well as in the Western countries where it originates.

Even if we argue the Nigerian version of Western education is not as good as  that in the West, is it not  essentially the same education and are Nigerians not known for heavily patronising Western universities?

Is it not  the essentially the  same scientific and technogicaleducation all over the world?

 Is it not working in Asia? Is  their scientific and technological education different from.that of the West? Are  technology graduates from India not at the center of action in US technology?

Is the fault then with the education, the individual Nigerian or the determining attitudes and political and social systems within which he is working?

Thanks

Toyin


Ibukunolu A Babajide

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Jan 17, 2022, 4:42:39 PM1/17/22
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My friend Osamede Edosomwan shared this with me and I want to share it with the Forum.

Cheers.

IBK

 You cannot understand ancient African civilizations without understanding the ancient civilization of Kush which was completely and totally an African civilization. The Egyptians adapted and used Kushite political, military, and technological systems in the development of their civilization. In other words, before Egypt there was Kush. The kingdom of Kush has the oldest monarchy in history which subsequently influenced the development of the Egyptian Pharaonic system. Without the Pharaonic system of government, there will be no pyramids and without the kingdom of Kush there will be no pharaonic system of government in ancient Egypt. These are historical facts. 

The Egyptians adapted and adopted Kushite military techniques and use of iron weaponry, in the development of their civilization. The Egyptians had scant natural resources and all of its iron ore, ivory and timber depended on its trade relations with Kush. The Egyptians in ancient times referred to Kush as the land of the bold and the 25th  dynasty in Egypt was established after a Kushite conquest of Egypt. There were times when the Egyptians also invaded, conquered, and established dynasties in Kush. Both civilizations influenced each other, but the Egyptian monarchical system and military technology, like archery was adapted from Kush. These are historical facts. By the way, what were the Germanic tribes doing when the Greeks were establishing political, philosophical, architectural and scientific systems in ancient Greece? They were living in earth mounds and thatch houses. Yet you don't hear anyone saying that Germanic tribes are not Europeans like the Greeks. 

Anyone espousing the idea that there were no ancient African civilizations is either grossly misinformed or approaching the subject matter with the ethnocentric bias that was instituted during the era of the triangular slave trade to justify the mass enslavement of Africans.

 OUE



_________________________
Ibukunolu Alao Babajide (IBK)

AN ENGLISH NURSERY RHYME

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

But leaves the greater villain loose

Who steals the common from off the goose

 

The law demands that we atone

When we take things that we do not own

But leaves the lords and ladies fine

Who take things that are yours and mine

 

The poor and wretched don’t escape

If they conspire the law to break

This must be so but they endure

Those who conspire to make the law

 

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

And geese will still a common lack

Till they go and steal it back

 -        Anonymous (circa 1764)


To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/HE1P193MB00768FE26E7FE4B73DB58FF3AE569%40HE1P193MB0076.EURP193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

Harrow, Kenneth

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Jan 17, 2022, 5:15:08 PM1/17/22
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as i said below, i believe these arguments about "civilization" assume colonial discursive values. assume eurocentric notions of "civilization."
i had written:"literacy" like "civilization" is a decidedly colonial discursive term used to validate european conquest over africa and the rest of the world, asia, latin america. not just missionary logics, but "la mission civilisatrice," the slogan of the france equivalent to "the white man's burden," or kulturarbeit, or you name it.
that's ultimately why i resist the turn to egypt as the foundation of civilization, as if "civilization" could be used apart from the colonial usages. there is no higher value to be attached to higher walls or buildings.
that was the point of Things Fall Apart. an entire society with human, decent, meaningful lives and values, did not require complex written text, or monotheistic beliefs, or taller buildings to validate social order or human interactions. not kingdoms or empires. not vast social edifices, like nations. achebe was a humanist to the end, a proselytizer for decency, and thus dedicated his work to a decent social order, be it before colonialism, during, or after."

that's why the argument about "ancient african civilizations" is lost from the outset: it makes assumptions about "civilization" as more advanced than, say, "acephalous" societies. it always reduces itself to argue, "we are as good as you," or "we are better than you," instead of, lets see it from another perspective.

i think it would behoove those arguing in favor of the true, original, authentic, real, first "civilization" to read damas's poem on the topic:
 
(don't miss the last line)
Sale
for Aimé Césaire


I feel laughable
in their shoes
in their dinner jacket
in their stiff shirt
in their detachable collar
in their monocle
in their bowler hat

I feel laughable
with my toes that were not born
to sweat from morning until night’s disrobing
with swaddling that weakens my limbs
and robs from my body its loincloth beauty

I feel laughable
with my neck a factory chimney
with headaches that stop
each time I greet someone

I feel laughable
in their salons
in their manners
in their low bows
in their enormous need for monkeyshines

I feel laughable
with all that conversation
until you are served in mid-afternoon
a bit of hot water
and some rheumy pastries.

I feel laughable
with the theories they shape
to the taste of their needs
of their passions
of their instincts wide open at night
like a doormat

I feel laughable
an accomplice among them
a pander among them
among those bloody hands red and frightening
with the blood of their ci-vi-la-za-tion
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

Sent: Monday, January 17, 2022 8:43 AM
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Salimonu Kadiri

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Jan 17, 2022, 5:30:28 PM1/17/22
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​My attention has been drawn to the fact that the link to Niyi Osundare's article in the online Sahara reporters is not accessible. I hereby submit a new link which I hope will be accessible.
S. Kadiri


From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Salimonu Kadiri <ogunl...@hotmail.com>
Sent: 16 January 2022 14:52

Harrow, Kenneth

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Jan 17, 2022, 5:36:39 PM1/17/22
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here is a much better translation of the damas poem. it is called "Solde," i.e., on sale

Damas, Léon-Gontran: On Sale (Solde in English)

Portre of Damas, Léon-Gontran

On Sale (English)

For Aimé Césaire

 

I feel ridiculous

in their shoes

in their tux

their starched shirt

their detachable collars

their monocle

their top hat

 

I feel ridiculous

with my big toes not made

to sweat from morning to evening undress

swaddling clothes weakening my members

taking the G-string beauty from my body

 

I feel ridiculous

with my neck in a stovepipe

with these headaches that stop

when I greet someone

 

I feel ridiculous

in their drawing rooms

in their manners

in their curtseys

all their grimaces

 

I feel ridiculous

with the stuff they tell

until in the afternoon they serve you

a little hot water

and some cakes with colds

 

I feel ridiculous

with the theories they spice

to the taste they need

their passions

their instincts open nightly,

like a mattress

 

I feel ridiculous

complicitous with them

a pimp with them

a killer with them

my hands frightful red

with the blood of their ci-vi-li-za-tion


Caws, Mary Ann

Solde (French)

Pour Aimé Césaire

 

J’ai l’impression d’être ridicule

dans leurs souliers

dans leur smoking

dans leur plastron

dans leur faux-col

dans leur monocle

dans leur melon

 

J’ai l’impression d’être ridicule

avec mes orteils qui ne sont pas faits

pour transpirer du matin jusqu’au soir qui déshabille

avec l’emmaillotage qui m’affaiblit les membres

et enlève à mon corps sa beauté de cache-sexe

 

J’ai l’impression d’être ridicule

avec mon cou en cheminée d’usine

avec ces maux de tête qui cessent

chaque fois que je salue quelqu’un

 

J’ai l’impression d’être ridicule

dans leurs salons

dans leurs manières

dans leurs courbettes

dans leur multiple besoin de singeries

 

J’ai l’impression d’être ridicule

avec tout ce qu’ils racontent

jusqu’à ce qu’ils vous servent l’après-midi

un peu d’eau chaude

et des gâteaux enrhumés

 

J’ai l’impression d’être ridicule

avec les théories qu’ils assaisonnent

au goût de leurs besoins

de leurs passions

de leurs instincts ouverts la nuit

en forme de paillasson

 

J’ai l’impression d’être ridicule

parmi eux complice

parmi eux souteneur

parmi eux égorgeur

les mains effroyablement rouges

du sang de leur ci-vi-li-sa-tion





kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2022 5:09 PM

Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Jan 17, 2022, 6:14:15 PM1/17/22
to Harrow, Kenneth, usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Ken.
This is a cunning way to shift  the goal post,  and
 an astute way to intimidate and/ or silence African
 historians , intentionally or not. They
would presumably be too nervous to discuss 
Africa’s history from any one standpoint. 

Out of the window and into the trash heap 
would go Nubia, Egypt, the Aksumite empire, 
Ghana,Mali and Songhai etc.  All of a sudden
 they would be too big to study - and as for
 writing systems, well we have to now deny their
existence.

This is convoluted colonialist rhetoric.




Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2022 5:09 PM

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - pretty damning report
 

Please be cautious: **External Email**

as i said below, i believe these arguments about "civilization" assume colonial discursive values. assume eurocentric notions of "civilization."

Harrow, Kenneth

unread,
Jan 17, 2022, 6:34:59 PM1/17/22
to Emeagwali, Gloria (History), usaafric...@googlegroups.com
what is colonialist rhetoric? i use the term discourse, a la said. no goal posts here: the europeans simply imputed higher value to their lives, cultures, societies. by reading "complex" "written" "technologically advanced" "socially larger structures" as superior, you wind up accepting their values.
nothing sneaky about arguing that when achebe writes back against joyce cary and graham greene and the rest of them, he is reversing the perspective

i know you set high value on egypt, and the afrocentrist schools for which it is the foundation of civilization. but i don't buy the whole baggage that goes with the term "civilization," and damas destroys it, as did cesaire. senghor waffled. but someone would have to explain why the world wars and destruction and colonialism itself came about if higher civilization were equated with all those values attributed to the west.

the standpoint that assumes these values must be challenged. i think i am not original: johannes fabian already argued this in Time and Its Other. i want to challenge the othering implicit in the use of "civilization" and its "missions."

as for trash, that is exactly my point. trash is only "out of place," as mary douglas defined it, if you are presuming a standpoint of value to begin with. i want to shake up those systems of value. you want to belabor my fault in seeing me disvalue those things you find to be of high value; i want to ask what assumptions are being made about the systems that are conferring value. not just where they come from, but what are the consequences of setting high art over low art, etc.

the answer is not so hard to see: hegel argued for a dialectic that always moved us, moved civilization, to higher and higher stages. but those stages were built on assumptions of value we need to deconstruct, the very work derrida set out to do.
the poem by damas does it beautifully, long before derrida followed in that direction.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emea...@ccsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2022 5:53 PM
To: Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>; usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Ibukunolu A Babajide

unread,
Jan 17, 2022, 6:34:59 PM1/17/22
to USAAfricaDialogue
Toyin,

How do you define "Education"?  Maybe that will help me situate your conceptual framework.

Cheers.

IBK


_________________________
Ibukunolu Alao Babajide (IBK)

AN ENGLISH NURSERY RHYME

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

But leaves the greater villain loose

Who steals the common from off the goose

 

The law demands that we atone

When we take things that we do not own

But leaves the lords and ladies fine

Who take things that are yours and mine

 

The poor and wretched don’t escape

If they conspire the law to break

This must be so but they endure

Those who conspire to make the law

 

The law locks up the man or woman

Who steals the goose from off the common

And geese will still a common lack

Till they go and steal it back

 -        Anonymous (circa 1764)


To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfPKjexdgSiegP15hEok5dnnHZJs6ch7%2B%3DNTRsxSwNjQQg%40mail.gmail.com.

Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Jan 18, 2022, 4:07:02 AM1/18/22
to Harrow, Kenneth, usaafric...@googlegroups.com
I could have also called it
 “colonial nihilist rhetoric” as well.

Historians are committed to 
discovering and uncovering Africa in all
its manifestations, big, medium, and small,
 and in-between,  and 
shouldn’t  apologize for any of these 
formations and polities.

If the term Civilization now bothers you, no sweat.
We can speak of Nubian  or Egyptian society, 
to put you at ease, but we don’t have to 
apologize for their existence, either. By the way,
I hope you are not  trying to create a version
of  Rousseau’s Noble Savage thesis for 
scholars of African  history to work with.

The reality is that internal power dynamics
and  complex forms of exploitation emerge within 
all types of states, even the so- called
acephalous ones, and wise historians 
are not fooled by small size.




Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
africahistory.net; vimeo.com/ gloriaemeagwali
Recipient of the 2014 Distinguished Research
Excellence Award, Univ. of Texas at Austin;
2019 Distinguished Africanist Award
New York African Studies Association

From: Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2022 6:29 PM
To: Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emea...@ccsu.edu>; usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Salimonu Kadiri

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Jan 19, 2022, 5:04:33 PM1/19/22
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
​Mr. Oluwatoyin Adepoju, Nigeria's Ministries, Departments and Agencies (MDAs) are manned by Nigerians who claim to have been educated in their respective special field in social, physical, and engineering science. The employed are given salaries and fringe benefits to encourage maximum productions. Besides, they are given money and materials needed to produce the needs of Nigerians. I don't understand what you mean by enabling environment.

You have clamoured severally on this forum for lack of electricty in your home but your complaints have never been directed at your academic colleagues in the power sector for failing to generate and distribute electricity in Nigeria. In 1998, before the death of Abacha, there was a Nigerian Professor of robotics who had worked with the General Electrics in the U.S., and returned to Nigeria to help  the Nation overcome the problems of epileptic power supply.  During Jonathan era he was Minister of Power and the infighting over privatisation of the power sector led to his removal from office and replaced by another Professor of electrical Engineering, with the name Chinedu Ositadinma Ndubuisi Nebo. During the Senate hearing to confirm his appointment on Wednesday, January 23, 2013, this is what he said when he was asked what he would do to put a stop to the power sector's constant generation and distribution of darkness to Nigerians, "If the President deploys me in the power sector, I believe that given my performance at the University of Nigeria Nsukka (UNN), where as a Chancellor, I drove out witches and demons, God will also give me power to drive out demons in the Power Sector." Not many countries are lucky to have a professor of electrical engineering as Minister of power but unfortunately Nigeria's professors of power supply possess knowledge of chasing away witches and demons that have nothing to do with power supply. The Latin people say, 'Nemo dat, non habet,' meaning, you cannot give what you don't have. I just pick the power sector as an example out of how Nigeria's MDAs function. 
S. Kadiri 

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Sent: 17 January 2022 03:43
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
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