Success Story :First IDF Officer from Guinea Began Life in Israel as Refugee
Cornelius Hamelberg
First IDF Officer from Guinea Began Life in Israel as Refugee
Second Lieutenant Avi Bari
Arriving illegally from the Republic of Guinea to Israel in 2005, Avi
Bari overcame all obstacles that once stood in his path and became an
officer in the IDF. He tells of his journey passing through Morocco to
the Egyptian Sinai desert, to a brief stint in prison, to Tel Aviv and
finally to an IDF base.
Second Lieutenant Avi Bari, known to his family who all remain in
Guinea as Ibrahima, already enjoys a certain notoriety that he owes to
his self-proclaimed status of “the first illegal immigrant to become
an officer of the IDF.”
Born in February 1990 in the city of Labé, the Republic of Guinea to
Muslim parents, 2nd Lt. Bari was orphaned at a very young age and
adopted by his uncle when he was 11. At age 15, armed only with his
will to “live a better life”, he decided to travel the 5,500
kilometers from his native Guinea to Israel, his now adopted country.
Crossing the desert in pursuit of good fortune
In 2005, Avi decided to leave his home along with a group of other
Guineans. “In Africa, there is no work. I decided to change my life
and go to another country,” he explains in the simplest way he can.
After a brief stop in Morocco, he arrived at the Egyptian capital of
Cairo, where he spent a few days before being driven to the Sinai
desert. He then waited for the rest of his group to arrive to Sinai so
that they could cross the Israeli border.
“I remember very well the desert. We were in a tent, two boys aged 15
stood guard. It was forbidden to get up the day. We were sent
tomatoes, tuna, rice by the smugglers. We made a water filter, because
the water was full of earthworms. I will never forget this point in
time.
The wait was very long. At one point I started to panic, believing
that I was ripped off. But the long-awaited day of crossing the border
finally arrived. The smugglers packed us like sardines in a car. Once
we got to the Israeli border, the car stopped. We got out and started
running. Israeli taxis were waiting on the other side, which drove us
directly to Tel Aviv.
First impressions and first steps in Israel
Upon his arrival to Tel Aviv, he established contact with other
illegal immigrants who taught him about Israel, a country virtually
unknown to him. They also helped him take steps to acquire official
political refugee status.
At first I was just in shock. I had 700 dollars in my pocket. I did
not speak the language and it was the first time I saw so many people
with white skin in a country.
However, he managed to enroll in the Beit Shanti school which
specializes in educating children of illegal immigrants and Israeli
children in need. There, he obtained the equivalent of a Bachelor’s
degree in Israel, studying agriculture in French and simultaneously
trying to get a work visa. He was initially denied a work visa under a
child labor law because he was a minor at the time.
Meanwhile, he became friends with Abraham, one of the volunteer
teachers from the school, who became a key figure in his career.
Indeed, it was Abraham, a French man of Algerian origin, who helped
him by finding a host family in March 2007.
Life in the Israeli army as a catalyst for integration
It was Abraham who helped make every effort for Second Lieutenant Bari
to acquire Israeli citizenship. In 2008 he was officially adopted by
an Israeli family living in northern Israel and finally fulfilled all
the conditions necessary to obtain Israeli citizenship. His status was
legalized at the end of that year.
My family celebrates Jewish holidays and makes Kiddush on Friday
nights. Now I think in Hebrew, I eat Israeli food, I am used to the
rhythm of life. I feel 90% Israeli. It took time.
His assimilation was catalyzed when he joined the IDF in October 2009.
From the outset, the IDF offered 2nd Lt. Bari to fill a role as an
officer responsible for managing human resources, however, he
preferred to train as an IDF truck driver. After being disqualified
from driving for health reasons, 2nd Lt. Bari decided to take on the
initial opportunity offered to him by the IDF.
It was in the army that I started to feel Israeli. I learned the
culture and history of Israel. We organized trips to Masada and
elsewhere, and that made me love the country. In the army, I made
friends for life. During my classes, I vowed that I will defend this
country. I would do everything to defend Israel, my life is here.
The issue of discrimination and racism
Personally I did not feel that I had to be Jewish to succeed in
Israel. The first time I was called a derogatory racial term, it was
during my officer training. This hurt me because I’m here like
everyone else, a member of a large family. I complained to my
commanders who immediately fixed the problem. It warmed the heart and
it never happened again.
I also once thought that being Jewish meant being a genius like
Einstein. I realized later during officer training school that Judaism
is a religion.
Today, 2nd Lt. Bari acts as bridge between the two peoples. He tells
his family in Guinea about his new life. He wishes to visit his family
at the end of his military service. And the future?
I want to work on the diplomatic relationship between Guinea and
Israel. There are no diplomatic relations between the two countries. I
want to be the first to do this.
Once again, the first.
Jesse Benjamin
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kenneth harrow
well, tell it to the folks on the flotilla who have the courage of their convictions, and who set an example for all of us
ken
On 7/12/11 3:37 PM, Jesse Benjamin wrote:
Interesting piece.But whatever merits this individual has, I think this is basically Israeli state propaganda, especially designed to take space and cover up the fact that very ugly anti-immigrant, and especially anti-African sentiment is boiling over in Israel, into street demonstrations, racist statements on TV and in Parliament, and the like...
This is the context in which this individual story is being promoted by the Israeli army and state, which are very image conscious...
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:56 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:
http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/07/11/first-idf-officer-from-guinea-began-life-in-israel-as-an-illegal-immigrant/
First IDF Officer from Guinea Began Life in Israel as Refugee
Second Lieutenant Avi Bari
�Arriving illegally from the Republic of Guinea to Israel in 2005, Avi
Bari overcame all obstacles that once stood in his path and became an
officer in the IDF. He tells of his journey passing through Morocco to
the Egyptian Sinai desert, to a brief stint in prison, to Tel Aviv and
finally to an IDF base.
Second Lieutenant Avi Bari, known to his family who all remain in
Guinea as Ibrahima, already enjoys a certain notoriety that he owes to
his self-proclaimed status of �the first illegal immigrant to become
an officer of the IDF.�
Born in February 1990 in the city of Lab�, the Republic of Guinea to
Muslim parents, 2nd Lt. Bari was orphaned at a very young age and
adopted by his uncle when he was 11. At age 15, armed only with his
will to �live a better life�, he decided to travel the 5,500
kilometers from his native Guinea to Israel, his now adopted country.
Crossing the desert in pursuit of good fortune
In 2005, Avi decided to leave his home along with a group of other
Guineans. �In Africa, there is no work. I decided to change my life
and go to another country,� he explains in the simplest way he can.
After a brief stop in Morocco, he arrived at the Egyptian capital of
Cairo, where he spent a few days before being driven to the Sinai
desert. He then waited for the rest of his group to arrive to Sinai so
that they could cross the Israeli border.
�I remember very well the desert. We were in a tent, two boys aged 15
stood guard. It was forbidden to get up the day. We were sent
tomatoes, tuna, rice by the smugglers. We made a water filter, because
the water was full of earthworms. I will never forget this point in
time.
The wait was very long. At one point I started to panic, believing
that I was ripped off. But the long-awaited day of crossing the border
finally arrived. The smugglers packed us like sardines in a car. Once
we got to the Israeli border, the car stopped. We got out and started
running. Israeli taxis were waiting on the other side, which drove us
directly to Tel Aviv.
First impressions and first steps in Israel
Upon his arrival to Tel Aviv, he established contact with other
illegal immigrants who taught him about Israel, a country virtually
unknown to him. They also helped him take steps to acquire official
political refugee status.
At first I was just in shock. I had 700 dollars in my pocket. I did
not speak the language and it was the first time I saw so many people
with white skin in a country.
However, he managed to enroll in the Beit Shanti school which
specializes in educating children of illegal immigrants and Israeli
children in need. There, he obtained the equivalent of a Bachelor�s
degree in Israel, studying agriculture in French and simultaneously
trying to get a work visa. He was initially denied a work visa under a
child labor law because he was a minor at the time.
�Meanwhile, he became friends with Abraham, one of the volunteer
during my officer training. This hurt me because I�m here like
everyone else, a member of a large family. I complained to my
commanders who immediately fixed the problem. It warmed the heart and
it never happened again.
I also once thought that being Jewish meant being a genius like
Einstein. I realized later during officer training school that Judaism
is a religion.
Today, 2nd Lt. Bari acts as bridge between the two peoples. He tells
his family in Guinea about his new life. He wishes to visit his family
at the end of his military service. And the future?
I want to work on the diplomatic relationship between Guinea and
Israel. There are no diplomatic relations between the two countries. I
want to be the first to do this.
Once again, the first.
--
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� For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
� For previous archives, visit �http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
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-- kenneth w. harrow professor of english michigan state university department of english east lansing, mi 48824-1036 ph. 517 803 8839 har...@msu.edu
Ayo Obe
Ayo
Cornelius Hamelberg
By African immigrants I suppose that you mean Africans from the North
(Tripoli) to the Cape, South of the great African continent?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Israel%27s+assistance+to+African+refugees&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
In this forum, of late we have heard quite a lot about purported Arab
racism in Libya, a racism which according to the accusers has been
exacerbated by the on-going struggle of the Libyan people who are now
fighting to achieve some cherished national gaols, such as some
reform or even elimination of Gaddafi's system. As far as I know,
prior to the Arab Spring Libya has been occasionally shaken up by
waves of anti- African sentiments basically because some African
immigrants/workers have been guilty of carrying on large scale haram/
illegal activities such as prostitution and the selling/distribution
of alcohol; in addition to these glaring misdeeds especially among
some of the non- Muslim immigrants/workers there has been the tendency
to forget where they are and not respect some of the cultural/ Islamic
norms of the host country – and it's mainly this that has generated
the backlash....
Sure we all want peace in the Middle East.
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=+Israel+MFA%3A++African+refugees&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
Israel - a light unto the nations - has a very humane immigration and
refugee policy and has been very generous. You have the figures. You
cannot say that illegal immigrants are not a problem:
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/07/jewish-australian-mp-bring-israels-african-immigrants-to-australia/
http://www.google.com/search?q=illegal+immigrants+to+Israel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
As a little country (8,000 square miles less than twice the size of
the Gambia, 4361 square miles) and with a population of over 7 million
people, beleaguered as she is with the multiple problems facing her by
land, air and sea, and not least of all a demographic problem that
could threaten the very nature( soul) and goals of the desired Jewish
state, we must all admit that there is a saturation point as to how
many African immigrants little Israel can absorb and still remain
Israel – in spite of which Israel has done much more than her share in
receiving, accommodating, and really taking care of African refugees.
Of course African immigrants mostly want to go to where the grass is
greener , the standard of living higher, for which reason Israel is
sometimes more of a destination than Guinea, or Boko Haram's Nigeria
or even post-apartheid South Africa where the crime rate, unemployment
and Housing are on the agenda, to be tackled in the coming decades.
http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps/arabwrld.htm
If , as you say, this news item were intended “to take space“ as
propaganda, then it would have been featured in any of the major
Israeli/ international news outlets where it would enjoy a much wider
propagation: South Sudan says, “ We love the love the Israeli
people!”:
http://www.freeman.org/other.htm
Racism is not a cornerstone of democratic Israel – and we find all
the evidence of this in the official reaction to both the late Meir
Kahane whose “ The Challenge” in my view is reasonable and should be
feasible – and of course official reaction to Rabbi Ovadia Josef's
emotional, “ The Holy One, blessed be He, regrets that he created
these Ishmaelites” - this at the height of the Intifada . And more
recently, sincerely not wishing his enemy good fortune:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186323
As far as all these questions are concerned, Israel is a crucible –
but look at Israel's contributions to Haiti look at the good work
being done by MASHAV in Africa. It's more than enough to be proud of.
http://www.google.com/search?q=MASHAV+and+Africa&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
On Jul 12, 3:37 pm, Jesse Benjamin <drjessebenja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting piece.
> But whatever merits this individual has, I think this is basically Israeli
> state propaganda, especially designed to take space and cover up the fact
> that very ugly anti-immigrant, and especially anti-African sentiment is
> boiling over in Israel, into street demonstrations, racist statements on TV
> and in Parliament, and the like...
> This is the context in which this individual story is being promoted by the
> Israeli army and state, which are very image conscious...
>
> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:56 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg <
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/07/11/first-idf-officer-from-guinea-b...
Pius Adesanmi
From: Ayo Obe <ayo.m...@gmail.com>
To: "usaafric...@googlegroups.com" <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "usaafric...@googlegroups.com" <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 12 July 2011, 11:48
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Success Story :First IDF Officer from Guinea Began Life in Israel as Refugee
Jesse Benjamin
Cornelius Hamelberg
Baruch Hashem! I am still alive, I'm not dead or resurrected yet....
I kindly request your indulgence for my extended delay in fielding my
response @USA- Africa Dialogue Series, re- your interesting question
as to “why El Hadj Ibrahima from Guinea had to become Avi Bari before
And even more interestingly in anticipation of the spiel we are likely
to witness from Mwalimu Bangura's Pan-Afri-Kan-ist perspective,
concerning your great expectations as to whether “ Mwalimu Bangura may
Mwalimu Bangura lacks the moral temerity/ testicular fortitude to be
flooding the Knesset with letters of protest against any injury done
And Dear Ayo Obe,
Re- your profound questions as to whether or not “ Is this adoption
confessing that you “don't know what the penalties for apostasy are
in Judaism (if any)” and your “doubt that even mass conversion by
Palestinians would solve the problem.”
Well, I actually penned the reply that you will be reading shortly,
whilst waiting for my plane to depart from Arlanda on Wednesday 13th
July but it's only now that I've had a moment's spare time in which
to be transferring what I scribbled on the backside of a long
passenger list, unto the page on which, as I said, you will be reading
shortly. All this was before taking note of what the learned and no
doubt very observant Chief Jew Brer Jesse Benjamin, who “ not
interested in debate on this”/ does not want to debate, wrote. I
myself wrote my reply to him up in the air and I hope that it will
sufficiently put him in his place ( longing for peace and
tranquillity) and even further take away from him any further
enthusiasm or blasphemous urge to “debate”. My kind words to
Professor Benjamin will also follow shortly hereafter.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/145836
On 12 Juli, 18:45, Pius Adesanmi <piusadesa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Cornelius
>
> I'm interested in why El Hadj Ibrahima from Guinea had to become Avi Bari before he was "let in" by the Mutesas at the Isreali border. Was his Fouta Djallon identity considered inassimilable? Mwalimu Bangura may start flooding the Knesset with letters of protest against the great injury done to the Afriko-Islamic identity of Avi Bari.
>
> Pius
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Cc: "usaafric...@googlegroups.com" <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 July 2011, 11:48
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Success Story :First IDF Officer from Guinea Began Life in Israel as Refugee
>
> Is this adoption and citizenship process available to Palestinians who are waiting outside Israel demanding the right of return? Once we can answer this question, we can know where to place this story, which is no doubt very nice for the individual who thus becomes the living proof of the wisdom of the General Assembly of the United Nations when it reversed its 'Zionism = racism' vote ... but otherwise meaningless for the main problem which concerns an Israel that welcomes people who have no connection whatsoever with the country other than their religion or Jewish descent, but excludes those who have been there, or rather, had been there, for long centuries. I don't know what the penalties for apostasy are in Judaism (if any) but somehow I doubt that even mass conversion by Palestinians would solve the problem.
>
> Ayo
> I invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama
>
>
> Interesting piece.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >But whatever merits this individual has, I think this is basically Israeli state propaganda, especially designed to take space and cover up the fact that very ugly anti-immigrant, and especially anti-African sentiment is boiling over in Israel, into street demonstrations, racist statements on TV and in Parliament, and the like...
> >This is the context in which this individual story is being promoted by the Israeli army and state, which are very image conscious...
>
>
> >http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/07/11/first-idf-officer-from-guinea-b...
> >> To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
> >> unsub...@googlegroups.com
>
> --
> >You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
> >For current archives, visithttp://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
> >unsub...@googlegroups.com
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
> For current archives, visithttp://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Cornelius Hamelberg
It must no doubt be equally surprising to you that Muslims now usually
seek asylum not in Saudi Arabia the birthplace and Qibla of al-Islam
- or in other Islamic headquarters such as Iraq, Syria or the
Revolutionary Islamic Republic of I-ran, but in the non-Muslim kuffar
countries of Dar al-Harb – and that we now find Muslims plentifully
seeking asylum in little Israel of all places, the country that Iran
calls “ the little Satan” ( the US being Iran's “ The Great Satan “
and this is especially surprising because,
1.The Quran in Surah 82 of al- Ma'idah says that, "Certainly you will
find the most hostile of people to those who believe are the Jews and
pagans...”
2.One of Israel's major problems, a problem from which no other Muslim
country suffers is this: the space. Allocated by The Owner, the King
of Kings of Kings - a land and nation which Muslims falsely claim
and want to steal from God's Chosen People.
Muslim refugees are normally fleeing persecution from their co-
religionists, fleeing oppression, poverty or lack of opportunity in
their own countries, and they hope to find freedom, tolerance, Human
Rights, Democracy and possibilities / opportunity to live this life
in freedom and dignity, in the much criticized Kuffar West - in the
US, the UK, Europe, Canada, and Australia, in their hundreds of
thousands, annually.....no surprise then that on the future map,
Great Britain is renamed “North Pakistan.”
There are of course historic/ legendary examples/ precedents : the
trinity of Joseph, baby Jesus and Mary seeking refuge in Egypt for a
while. There's also the example of the followers of the prophet of
Islam fleeing persecution in Mecca and finding temporary refugee which
was granted them by the Negus of Ethiopia...
The case of Avi Bari serves to dispel a few myths about the Jewish
people and Judaism as does this book , “The color of Jews”. In reply
to the question, “ Who is a Jew?”, the halachic answer is of course
that a Jew is one who is born of a Jewish mother or one who converts
to Judaism and thus becomes a member the Jewish people and their
Faith.
http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Color+of+Jews&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
with an interesting chapter in which Ricardo Lewis Gordon speaks
http://www.google.com/search?q=Ricardo+Lewis+Gordon&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
Curiously enough, Avi Bari emphasises that “ Judaism is a religion”
What he does not point out in that article is that Judaism is not only
a religion but is also a people, a people-hood, and that when he
converted, like Ruth of old - the quintessential convert, he did not
only acquire a new faith (religion) he also joined a people and became
a Jew, a member of the Jewish people, like Julius Lester......
Those who are destined to be Jews, will be Jews.
As Ruth said, and that is the essence, Ruth 1.:16 :'Entreat me not to
leave thee, and to return from following after thee; for whither thou
goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge; thy people
shall be my people, and thy G-d my G-d;
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/texts/Ruth-Ruth.php
And that's what happened with “Ibrahima,” in short, when he became
Avi Bari, he took a ritual bath in the mikveh and acquired a Jewish
soul.
Just as your Chris Oyakhilome would say, if “Ibrahima” had followed
him and Jesus instead, by baptism, he would have become a “ New Man:”
Which does not mean to say that Avi Bari will necessarily stop liking
Bemebeya Jazz Orchestra or Keletigui, although I suppose that living
in Israel and eating her fruits he will acculturate more rapidly than
those living in the Wild West......
Ayo Obe asks about mass conversion. This is a question for the rabbis.
In the meantime (before I become a rabbi) I know that the Jewish
people must follow the majority of the Jewish scholars.
There is the historical case of the Kazars - a whole nation - which
converted en masse along with their King and in an instant swelled the
ranks ( numerical strength ) of the Jewish people. (Most probably if
the prophet of Islam had not come along, in the view of many
historians of religion it's possible that the rest of the Arabian
peninsular would have converted to Judaism – half of Yemen was already
Jewish at the time of the prophet of the Quran.
http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Khazars&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
At some Orthodox conversion courses Judah Ha- Levi's “The Kuzari” is
required study - in that book the author puts forward the case for
the Jewish Faith.The Afrikanist might be slightly taken aback by
exactly only one sentence in that book, an apt description of a
rudimentary African, a description of the times...
http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Kuzari&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
Abraham who was the First Jew, converted a lot of people in Haran.
http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Jews+of+Africa&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
In theory would it be possible for all the so called Palestinians -
Muslims, Christians and atheists to convert to Judaism and so take
over the Holy Land? Well, the Muslim Sharia penalty for a born Muslim
who converts to another faith, is death. In spite of that you would
be surprised about these sort of figures:
http://www.google.com/search?rawq=Muslims+converting+&q=site%3Awww.israpundit.com+Muslims+converting+&submit=Search
To place the Palestinians' “ The Right of Return” at the top of their
agenda, is a non-starter. It is both unreasonable and illogical that
all the Palestinian exiles would want to be entitled to return, not to
their own state ( Jordan) but to Israel proper – about 3-4 million of
them – and then of course they would like to apply universal adult
suffrage and due democratic process - as if the demographic nightmare
is not enough already..... the majority of Israeli voters would then
be Arab and Muslim, they would rule the Holy Land wouldn't they ? As
they rule all the Muslims lands, like Libya.
Well, in short, that is hopefully never going to happen ina Israel.
By the way, Ali G's new movie is “ The Dictator.” and the last thing
that the dictator wants to see in his country, is Human Rights and
democracy – these are anathema to him .I suppose it's a humorous
flashback to life before the Arab Spring and I'm sure that the masses
in that area are also looking forward to seeing it, next year.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Ali+G+%3A+The+Dictator&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
As you know, some Mwalimus have the “ balls” to want others hanged ,
but not himself.....
On Jul 12, 5:48 pm, Ayo Obe <ayo.m.o....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is this adoption and citizenship process available to Palestinians who are waiting outside Israel demanding the right of return? Once we can answer this question, we can know where to place this story, which is no doubt very nice for the individual who thus becomes the living proof of the wisdom of the General Assembly of the United Nations when it reversed its 'Zionism = racism' vote ... but otherwise meaningless for the main problem which concerns an Israel that welcomes people who have no connection whatsoever with the country other than their religion or Jewish descent, but excludes those who have been there, or rather, had been there, for long centuries. I don't know what the penalties for apostasy are in Judaism (if any) but somehow I doubt that even mass conversion by Palestinians would solve the problem.
>
> Ayo
> I invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama
>
>
> > Interesting piece.
> > But whatever merits this individual has, I think this is basically Israeli state propaganda, especially designed to take space and cover up the fact that very ugly anti-immigrant, and especially anti-African sentiment is boiling over in Israel, into street demonstrations, racist statements on TV and in Parliament, and the like...
> > This is the context in which this individual story is being promoted by the Israeli army and state, which are very image conscious...
>
> >http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/07/11/first-idf-officer-from-guinea-b...
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Ayo Obe
That is why I love this forum. You can learn things that challenge your prejudices and half- formed beliefs.
I must confess that my question was slightly tongue in cheek, but really, I belong to the Henry IV (of France) school of thought - you know, "Paris is worth a Mass". I know that unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism is not a proseletyzing (suspect that's not the word,perhaps I should just say evangelising?) religion,yet I remember one of the facts that stuck in my head even as a young girl, was that Elizabeth Taylor had converted to Judaism in order to marry one of her six husbands, so I knew that it was possible. I don't know enough about the descent aspect because some say that only a Jewish mother can make you Jewish. I have Jewish friends who are not practising just as everybody probably has Muslim and Christian friends ditto.
I will continue to recommend the practical analysis and solutions proffered by the International Crisis Group (of which I am a trustee). But otherwise, I confess I don't know the answer.
Ayo
I invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama
> For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
kenneth harrow
for me judaism is a complicated thing, israel is a complicated thing.
with all due respect for cornelius's superior knowledge of the religion,
i am writing as a practicing, though secular jew. a jew who had once
considered israel necessary to the survival of the jewish people, but no
longer does. and as a jew who does not recognize the authorities
cornelius correctly delineates.
for me, a jew born 5 years before the creation of the state of israel, i
was taught to believe that it was our protection after the holocaust. i
did not come from a particularly practicing family, and although i was
bar mitzvahed, that had little to do with actual religious faith.
i don't want to make this any more personal than that. i believe that
the claims i will now make are commonly held by many jews in america or
europe.
we do not have to believe in god or attend synagogue to consider
ourselves jewish. i never took the rabbinal dictates as applying to me
or anyone i knew. i consider their rules worse than outdated; they are
at times reprehensible or outrageous, especially when it comes to
defining who is a jew. i know the standard rule is that one must be born
of a jewish mother, or convert. my own belief is that we are all free to
declare ourselves believers in any belief community. between the
institutional understanding, and the individual there is a partial gulf.
there are many branches of judaism, including not only orthodox,
conservative, and reform. though raised reform, i belong to a
reconstructionist congregation, and we believe that the rules of the
past "have a vote," but not a veto over what the congregation decides.
i would consider anyone who adheres to judaism entitled to consider
themselves jewish. probably many would argue with me; but many would agree.
many would agree that israel lost its credibility when it turned, since
67, into an occupier who abused palestinians. some would say we are in a
post-zionist stage where the original raison-d'etre for the state has
been vitiated by its oppression of the palestians. i can't speak for
others, but i know i am not alone in stating this.
as for the right of return, and other issues of debate over rights for
palestinians, they are all legitimate, but practically speaking subject
to negotiation. palestinian leaders have negotiated on that as well as
any other issues.
cornelius wants to claim that jews have a right to the eretz-israel. we
have no right to anything if it means oppressing others. we forfeited
that right, gaza stands as a reproach to any religious claims for
legitimacy.
if the argument is that god established the covenant which gives the
land to the descendants of abraham, then the jewish leadership have
abrogated that covenant by oppressing the palestinians.
not all jews believe that. most probably don't. but many do. they love
justice more than god.
and maybe that is the best thing i can tell you all about judaism: we
recognize that statement not as anti-jewish, but profoundly jewish.
ken
On 7/20/11 1:26 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
> Dear Pius and Ayo Obe,
>
> It must no doubt be equally surprising to you that Muslims now usually
> seek asylum not in Saudi Arabia the birthplace and Qibla of al-Islam
> - or in other Islamic headquarters such as Iraq, Syria or the
> Revolutionary Islamic Republic of I-ran, but in the non-Muslim kuffar
> countries of Dar al-Harb � and that we now find Muslims plentifully
> seeking asylum in little Israel of all places, the country that Iran
> calls � the little Satan� ( the US being Iran's � The Great Satan �
> and this is especially surprising because,
>
> 1.The Quran in Surah 82 of al- Ma'idah says that, "Certainly you will
> find the most hostile of people to those who believe are the Jews and
> pagans...�
> 2.One of Israel's major problems, a problem from which no other Muslim
> country suffers is this: the space. Allocated by The Owner, the King
> of Kings of Kings - a land and nation which Muslims falsely claim
> and want to steal from God's Chosen People.
>
> Muslim refugees are normally fleeing persecution from their co-
> religionists, fleeing oppression, poverty or lack of opportunity in
> their own countries, and they hope to find freedom, tolerance, Human
> Rights, Democracy and possibilities / opportunity to live this life
> in freedom and dignity, in the much criticized Kuffar West - in the
> US, the UK, Europe, Canada, and Australia, in their hundreds of
> thousands, annually.....no surprise then that on the future map,
> Great Britain is renamed �North Pakistan.�
>
> There are of course historic/ legendary examples/ precedents : the
> trinity of Joseph, baby Jesus and Mary seeking refuge in Egypt for a
> while. There's also the example of the followers of the prophet of
> Islam fleeing persecution in Mecca and finding temporary refugee which
> was granted them by the Negus of Ethiopia...
>
> The case of Avi Bari serves to dispel a few myths about the Jewish
> people and Judaism as does this book , �The color of Jews�. In reply
> to the question, � Who is a Jew?�, the halachic answer is of course
> that a Jew is one who is born of a Jewish mother or one who converts
> to Judaism and thus becomes a member the Jewish people and their
> Faith.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Color+of+Jews&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
>
> with an interesting chapter in which Ricardo Lewis Gordon speaks
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=Ricardo+Lewis+Gordon&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
>
> Curiously enough, Avi Bari emphasises that � Judaism is a religion�
> What he does not point out in that article is that Judaism is not only
> a religion but is also a people, a people-hood, and that when he
> converted, like Ruth of old - the quintessential convert, he did not
> only acquire a new faith (religion) he also joined a people and became
> a Jew, a member of the Jewish people, like Julius Lester......
>
> Those who are destined to be Jews, will be Jews.
>
> As Ruth said, and that is the essence, Ruth 1.:16 :'Entreat me not to
> leave thee, and to return from following after thee; for whither thou
> goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge; thy people
> shall be my people, and thy G-d my G-d;
>
> http://www.ahavat-israel.com/texts/Ruth-Ruth.php
>
> And that's what happened with �Ibrahima,� in short, when he became
> Avi Bari, he took a ritual bath in the mikveh and acquired a Jewish
> soul.
>
> Just as your Chris Oyakhilome would say, if �Ibrahima� had followed
> him and Jesus instead, by baptism, he would have become a � New Man:�
>
> Which does not mean to say that Avi Bari will necessarily stop liking
> Bemebeya Jazz Orchestra or Keletigui, although I suppose that living
> in Israel and eating her fruits he will acculturate more rapidly than
> those living in the Wild West......
>
> Ayo Obe asks about mass conversion. This is a question for the rabbis.
> In the meantime (before I become a rabbi) I know that the Jewish
> people must follow the majority of the Jewish scholars.
> There is the historical case of the Kazars - a whole nation - which
> converted en masse along with their King and in an instant swelled the
> ranks ( numerical strength ) of the Jewish people. (Most probably if
> the prophet of Islam had not come along, in the view of many
> historians of religion it's possible that the rest of the Arabian
> peninsular would have converted to Judaism � half of Yemen was already
> Jewish at the time of the prophet of the Quran.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Khazars&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
>
> At some Orthodox conversion courses Judah Ha- Levi's �The Kuzari� is
> required study - in that book the author puts forward the case for
> the Jewish Faith.The Afrikanist might be slightly taken aback by
> exactly only one sentence in that book, an apt description of a
> rudimentary African, a description of the times...
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Kuzari&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
>
> Abraham who was the First Jew, converted a lot of people in Haran.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Jews+of+Africa&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
>
> In theory would it be possible for all the so called Palestinians -
> Muslims, Christians and atheists to convert to Judaism and so take
> over the Holy Land? Well, the Muslim Sharia penalty for a born Muslim
> who converts to another faith, is death. In spite of that you would
> be surprised about these sort of figures:
> http://www.google.com/search?rawq=Muslims+converting+&q=site%3Awww.israpundit.com+Muslims+converting+&submit=Search
>
> To place the Palestinians' � The Right of Return� at the top of their
> agenda, is a non-starter. It is both unreasonable and illogical that
> all the Palestinian exiles would want to be entitled to return, not to
> their own state ( Jordan) but to Israel proper � about 3-4 million of
> them � and then of course they would like to apply universal adult
> suffrage and due democratic process - as if the demographic nightmare
> is not enough already..... the majority of Israeli voters would then
> be Arab and Muslim, they would rule the Holy Land wouldn't they ? As
> they rule all the Muslims lands, like Libya.
>
> Well, in short, that is hopefully never going to happen ina Israel.
>
> By the way, Ali G's new movie is � The Dictator.� and the last thing
> that the dictator wants to see in his country, is Human Rights and
> democracy � these are anathema to him .I suppose it's a humorous
> flashback to life before the Arab Spring and I'm sure that the masses
> in that area are also looking forward to seeing it, next year.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=Ali+G+%3A+The+Dictator&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
>
> As you know, some Mwalimus have the � balls� to want others hanged ,
> but not himself.....
>
> On Jul 12, 5:48 pm, Ayo Obe<ayo.m.o....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Is this adoption and citizenship process available to Palestinians who are waiting outside Israel demanding the right of return? Once we can answer this question, we can know where to place this story, which is no doubt very nice for the individual who thus becomes the living proof of the wisdom of the General Assembly of the United Nations when it reversed its 'Zionism = racism' vote ... but otherwise meaningless for the main problem which concerns an Israel that welcomes people who have no connection whatsoever with the country other than their religion or Jewish descent, but excludes those who have been there, or rather, had been there, for long centuries. I don't know what the penalties for apostasy are in Judaism (if any) but somehow I doubt that even mass conversion by Palestinians would solve the problem.
>>
>> Ayo
>> I invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama
>>
>> On 12 Jul 2011, at 14:37, Jesse Benjamin<drjessebenja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting piece.
>>> But whatever merits this individual has, I think this is basically Israeli state propaganda, especially designed to take space and cover up the fact that very ugly anti-immigrant, and especially anti-African sentiment is boiling over in Israel, into street demonstrations, racist statements on TV and in Parliament, and the like...
>>> This is the context in which this individual story is being promoted by the Israeli army and state, which are very image conscious...
>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:56 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg<corneliushamelb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> http://idfspokesperson.com/2011/07/11/first-idf-officer-from-guinea-b...
>>> First IDF Officer from Guinea Began Life in Israel as Refugee
>>> Second Lieutenant Avi Bari
>>> Arriving illegally from the Republic of Guinea to Israel in 2005, Avi
>>> Bari overcame all obstacles that once stood in his path and became an
>>> officer in the IDF. He tells of his journey passing through Morocco to
>>> the Egyptian Sinai desert, to a brief stint in prison, to Tel Aviv and
>>> finally to an IDF base.
>>> Second Lieutenant Avi Bari, known to his family who all remain in
>>> Guinea as Ibrahima, already enjoys a certain notoriety that he owes to
>>> his self-proclaimed status of �the first illegal immigrant to become
>>> an officer of the IDF.�
>>> Born in February 1990 in the city of Lab�, the Republic of Guinea to
>>> Muslim parents, 2nd Lt. Bari was orphaned at a very young age and
>>> adopted by his uncle when he was 11. At age 15, armed only with his
>>> will to �live a better life�, he decided to travel the 5,500
>>> kilometers from his native Guinea to Israel, his now adopted country.
>>> Crossing the desert in pursuit of good fortune
>>> In 2005, Avi decided to leave his home along with a group of other
>>> Guineans. �In Africa, there is no work. I decided to change my life
>>> and go to another country,� he explains in the simplest way he can.
>>> After a brief stop in Morocco, he arrived at the Egyptian capital of
>>> Cairo, where he spent a few days before being driven to the Sinai
>>> desert. He then waited for the rest of his group to arrive to Sinai so
>>> that they could cross the Israeli border.
>>> �I remember very well the desert. We were in a tent, two boys aged 15
>>> stood guard. It was forbidden to get up the day. We were sent
>>> tomatoes, tuna, rice by the smugglers. We made a water filter, because
>>> the water was full of earthworms. I will never forget this point in
>>> time.
>>> The wait was very long. At one point I started to panic, believing
>>> that I was ripped off. But the long-awaited day of crossing the border
>>> finally arrived. The smugglers packed us like sardines in a car. Once
>>> we got to the Israeli border, the car stopped. We got out and started
>>> running. Israeli taxis were waiting on the other side, which drove us
>>> directly to Tel Aviv.
>>> First impressions and first steps in Israel
>>> Upon his arrival to Tel Aviv, he established contact with other
>>> illegal immigrants who taught him about Israel, a country virtually
>>> unknown to him. They also helped him take steps to acquire official
>>> political refugee status.
>>> At first I was just in shock. I had 700 dollars in my pocket. I did
>>> not speak the language and it was the first time I saw so many people
>>> with white skin in a country.
>>> However, he managed to enroll in the Beit Shanti school which
>>> specializes in educating children of illegal immigrants and Israeli
>>> children in need. There, he obtained the equivalent of a Bachelor�s
>>> during my officer training. This hurt me because I�m here like
--
Cornelius Hamelberg
http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/yizkoridf.htm
This is something else:
http://einshalom.com/archives/49
“I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends” - Abraham Lincoln
I now realise that I will have to re-write the response I had written
on the 17th of Tammuz.....
Since Jesse "Hymietown" Benjimen is not less urgent than Kenneth D'
Harrow I'll have to equip my sling to kill two birds with just one
smooth stone....
One size fits all...be patient, soon come, paddy spoil....
Oppression my ess/foot. Stand firm or feed worm. As George W said, "
Either yu are with us or yu are with the TERRORISTS"
I intend to respond to all that the traitors have to say before
sundown tomorrow.....
http://israelseen.com/2011/05/08/yom-hazikaron-remembrance-day-details/
>
> > 1.The Quran in Surah 82 of al- Ma'idah says that, "Certainly you will
> > find the most hostile of people to those who believe are the Jews and
> > pagans...
> > country suffers is this: the space. Allocated by The Owner, the King
> > of Kings of Kings - a land and nation which Muslims falsely claim
> > and want to steal from God's Chosen People.
>
> > Muslim refugees are normally fleeing persecution from their co-
> > religionists, fleeing oppression, poverty or lack of opportunity in
> > their own countries, and they hope to find freedom, tolerance, Human
> > Rights, Democracy and possibilities / opportunity to live this life
> > in freedom and dignity, in the much criticized Kuffar West - in the
> > US, the UK, Europe, Canada, and Australia, in their hundreds of
> > thousands, annually.....no surprise then that on the future map,
> > There are of course historic/ legendary examples/ precedents : the
> > trinity of Joseph, baby Jesus and Mary seeking refuge in Egypt for a
> > while. There's also the example of the followers of the prophet of
> > Islam fleeing persecution in Mecca and finding temporary refugee which
> > was granted them by the Negus of Ethiopia...
>
> > The case of Avi Bari serves to dispel a few myths about the Jewish
> > to the question, Who is a Jew? , the halachic answer is of course
> > to Judaism and thus becomes a member the Jewish people and their
> > Faith.
>
> > with an interesting chapter in which Ricardo Lewis Gordon speaks
>
>
> > Curiously enough, Avi Bari emphasises that Judaism is a religion
> > a religion but is also a people, a people-hood, and that when he
> > converted, like Ruth of old - the quintessential convert, he did not
> > only acquire a new faith (religion) he also joined a people and became
> > a Jew, a member of the Jewish people, like Julius Lester......
>
> > Those who are destined to be Jews, will be Jews.
>
> > As Ruth said, and that is the essence, Ruth 1.:16 :'Entreat me not to
> > leave thee, and to return from following after thee; for whither thou
> > goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge; thy people
> > shall be my people, and thy G-d my G-d;
>
> >http://www.ahavat-israel.com/texts/Ruth-Ruth.php
>
> > soul.
>
> > him and Jesus instead, by baptism, he would have become a New Man:
> > Which does not mean to say that Avi Bari will necessarily stop liking
> > Bemebeya Jazz Orchestra or Keletigui, although I suppose that living
> > in Israel and eating her fruits he will acculturate more rapidly than
> > those living in the Wild West......
>
> > Ayo Obe asks about mass conversion. This is a question for the rabbis.
> > In the meantime (before I become a rabbi) I know that the Jewish
> > people must follow the majority of the Jewish scholars.
> > There is the historical case of the Kazars - a whole nation - which
> > converted en masse along with their King and in an instant swelled the
> > ranks ( numerical strength ) of the Jewish people. (Most probably if
> > the prophet of Islam had not come along, in the view of many
> > historians of religion it's possible that the rest of the Arabian
>
>
> > At some Orthodox conversion courses Judah Ha- Levi's The Kuzari is
> > the Jewish Faith.The Afrikanist might be slightly taken aback by
> > exactly only one sentence in that book, an apt description of a
> > rudimentary African, a description of the times...
>
> > Abraham who was the First Jew, converted a lot of people in Haran.
>
> > In theory would it be possible for all the so called Palestinians -
> > Muslims, Christians and atheists to convert to Judaism and so take
> > over the Holy Land? Well, the Muslim Sharia penalty for a born Muslim
> > who converts to another faith, is death. In spite of that you would
> > be surprised about these sort of figures:
>
> > To place the Palestinians' The Right of Return at the top of their
> > all the Palestinian exiles would want to be entitled to return, not to
> > them and then of course they would like to apply universal adult
> > is not enough already..... the majority of Israeli voters would then
> > be Arab and Muslim, they would rule the Holy Land wouldn't they ? As
> > they rule all the Muslims lands, like Libya.
>
> > Well, in short, that is hopefully never going to happen ina Israel.
>
> > in that area are also looking forward to seeing it, next year.
>
>
> läs mer »
Cornelius Hamelberg
I should like to point out that I especially like the 12th Blessing of
the Amidah:
“ And for the slanderers, let there be no hope;
and may all wickedness perish in an instant;
and may all Your enemies be cut down speedily.
The wanton sinners – May You speedily uproot, smash, cast down and
humble -
speedily in our days.
Blessed are You Hashem, Who breaks enemies and humbles wanton
sinners.”
I realise that we are dealing with human nature, not with the nature
of angels and that there are hackers, hack writers and journalists,
even human refuse, being bankrolled by moneyed jihadists, to make
vicious propaganda against the Jewish State. We know that some of
them are prepared to even sell their own grandmothers for money.
And there are those who reel off a series of insults, such as “Israel
is in fact founded on racism at its core”, other such blasphemies,
distortions, false charges, all of which we are expected to accept as
their own sacred contribution to objective truth and beyond dispute -
and - on top of all that, when they say that they don't want to
“debate” such controversial issues, that's a very tall order indeed.
I am often torn between these two poles, the tension that exists
between
on the one hand, after the Amidah the prayer which begins
“My God,
keep my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
May my soul be silent to them that curse me
and may my soul be as the dust to everyone.....”
and the feeling that for me to be a doormat or as quiet as St.
Nicholas of Cusa at such a time
would be a crime.
Yes indeed, Kenneth Harrow loves justice, but I don't think that he is
being fair, the way he represents the dilemmas, without even as much
as mentioning the terrorists who belong to the Paradise Cult of the
Suicide Bombers and all the death and destruction they have visited
upon innocent Israelis and their properties :
http://www.google.com/search?q=Palestinian+Terrorists&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
Rabbi Meir Kahane states in his excellent “ Our Challenge” published
in 1974 (page 128):
“The right of the state of Israel to exist is dependent upon the right
of the Jew to a land of Israel
The state can do nothing in denigration of the imperatives of the
land. And if the decree of the land of Israel through the Jewish
heritage is that every Jew has a right to enter and live there, then
no Knesset and no state can do anything to contradict that edict.
Here we have one more example of the corruption of the true meaning of
the State of Israel vis-a-vis the Jewish people. Instead of an
affirmation of the Jewish people as an indivisible nation with each
and every Jew entitled to the same rights from the Jewish state , we
find that there are indeed “Jews” and “ Israelis”. The criminal born
in Tel Aviv is not deported from Israel, but the one who tries to
enter the land from Chicago is. A 72-year old “foreign“ criminal
becomes a “danger to the state”, but a native born communist whose
allegiance is to Moscow is not. A “foreign”Jew who is deemed “
undesirable” cannot live in the land of Israel but hundreds of
thousands of Arabs can.”
http://www.google.com/search?q=Meir+Kahane+%3A+Our+Challenge%2C&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
I really like most of what Rabbi Kahane has said:
http://www.google.com/search?q=+++Rabbi+Meir+Kahane+%3A+Writings&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
For many of us, honesty is the best policy: therefore I would like to
have more clarity about these doubtful matters:
You say that you “once considered israel necessary to the survival of
the jewish people”.The fact of the matter is that the enemies of
Israel not least of all Iran, continue to threaten Israel, and this
means that the survival of the Jewish people of Israel is at stake.
Israel need only lose one war, and then most of the anti-Semites, the
anti-Zionists and the self-hating Jews who are currently yapping about
“occupied territories”would be yapping about occupied territories no
more and be happy that they had nothing more to yappy about.
And even more seriously, the fact of the matter is that the Jewish
Faith with all 613 Mitzvoth can only be fully practised in the Land of
Israel in which we all pray that the Beit Hamikdash will be built in
the Holy City of Jerusalem, soon, in our days.
So, cheer up everybody, all will be well in the end:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15933/jewish/Chapter-2.htm
You say that, “many would agree that israel lost its credibility when
it turned, since
67, into an occupier who abused palestinians.”
Here's the nitty-gritty about Judea and Samaria which in more recent
history, some call The West Bank” - all of which you know better than
anyone, but not everyone knows:
http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_101.html
http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_102.html
http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_06.html
and from my trustworthy source:
http://www.google.com/search?rawq=occupation%3F&q=site%3Awww.israpundit.com+occupation%3F&submit=Search
“cornelius wants to claim that jews have a right to the eretz-israel.
have no right to anything if it means oppressing others. we forfeited
that right, gaza stands as a reproach to any religious claims for
Professor Harrow!!!!! Have a heart. Please!
It's the Almighty, and not Cornelius who gave Israel to the Jewish
people as an everlasting heritage!
And as for Gaza – it has a surplus of everything, apart from weapons :
they have food, medicines, shopping malls etc. Ariel Sharon uprooted
15, 000 “Settlers” and made it judenrein – as a result of which Hamas
and co-jihadists are still terrorising the Israeli inhabitants of
Sderot and environs with their rockets... and hope to be rewarded
with no less than 72 virgins each (in paradise) for murder....and
mass murder, for a Holocaust.....
For the religious-minded and the curious, Chapter 4's “ Israel and the
Nations” on pages 133- 146 of Moshe Chaim Luzzato's “The Way of God” ,
is convincing:
http://books.google.co.il/books?id=Zx4PTan5OO0C&pg=PA11&dq=Moshe+Chaim+Luzzatto+:+The+Way+of+God&hl=en&ei=hJgpTt_BBNCVswbU_bXjCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Moshe%20Chaim%20Luzzatto%20%3A%20The%20Way%20of%20God&f=false
Wishing everyone a pleasant weekend,
Cornelius
>
> > 1.The Quran in Surah 82 of al- Ma'idah says that, "Certainly you will
> > find the most hostile of people to those who believe are the Jews and
> > pagans...
> > country suffers is this: the space. Allocated by The Owner, the King
> > of Kings of Kings - a land and nation which Muslims falsely claim
> > and want to steal from God's Chosen People.
>
> > Muslim refugees are normally fleeing persecution from their co-
> > religionists, fleeing oppression, poverty or lack of opportunity in
> > their own countries, and they hope to find freedom, tolerance, Human
> > Rights, Democracy and possibilities / opportunity to live this life
> > in freedom and dignity, in the much criticized Kuffar West - in the
> > US, the UK, Europe, Canada, and Australia, in their hundreds of
> > thousands, annually.....no surprise then that on the future map,
> > There are of course historic/ legendary examples/ precedents : the
> > trinity of Joseph, baby Jesus and Mary seeking refuge in Egypt for a
> > while. There's also the example of the followers of the prophet of
> > Islam fleeing persecution in Mecca and finding temporary refugee which
> > was granted them by the Negus of Ethiopia...
>
> > The case of Avi Bari serves to dispel a few myths about the Jewish
> > to the question, Who is a Jew? , the halachic answer is of course
> > to Judaism and thus becomes a member the Jewish people and their
> > Faith.
>
> > with an interesting chapter in which Ricardo Lewis Gordon speaks
>
>
> > Curiously enough, Avi Bari emphasises that Judaism is a religion
> > a religion but is also a people, a people-hood, and that when he
> > converted, like Ruth of old - the quintessential convert, he did not
> > only acquire a new faith (religion) he also joined a people and became
> > a Jew, a member of the Jewish people, like Julius Lester......
>
> > Those who are destined to be Jews, will be Jews.
>
> > As Ruth said, and that is the essence, Ruth 1.:16 :'Entreat me not to
> > leave thee, and to return from following after thee; for whither thou
> > goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge; thy people
> > shall be my people, and thy G-d my G-d;
>
> >http://www.ahavat-israel.com/texts/Ruth-Ruth.php
>
> > soul.
>
> > him and Jesus instead, by baptism, he would have become a New Man:
> > Which does not mean to say that Avi Bari will necessarily stop liking
> > Bemebeya Jazz Orchestra or Keletigui, although I suppose that living
> > in Israel and eating her fruits he will acculturate more rapidly than
> > those living in the Wild West......
>
> > Ayo Obe asks about mass conversion. This is a question for the rabbis.
> > In the meantime (before I become a rabbi) I know that the Jewish
> > people must follow the majority of the Jewish scholars.
> > There is the historical case of the Kazars - a whole nation - which
> > converted en masse along with their King and in an instant swelled the
> > ranks ( numerical strength ) of the Jewish people. (Most probably if
> > the prophet of Islam had not come along, in the view of many
> > historians of religion it's possible that the rest of the Arabian
>
>
> > At some Orthodox conversion courses Judah Ha- Levi's The Kuzari is
> > the Jewish Faith.The Afrikanist might be slightly taken aback by
> > exactly only one sentence in that book, an apt description of a
> > rudimentary African, a description of the times...
>
> > Abraham who was the First Jew, converted a lot of people in Haran.
>
> > In theory would it be possible for all the so called Palestinians -
> > Muslims, Christians and atheists to convert to Judaism and so take
> > over the Holy Land? Well, the Muslim Sharia penalty for a born Muslim
> > who converts to another faith, is death. In spite of that you would
> > be surprised about these sort of figures:
>
> > To place the Palestinians' The Right of Return at the top of their
> > all the Palestinian exiles would want to be entitled to return, not to
> > them and then of course they would like to apply universal adult
> > is not enough already..... the majority of Israeli voters would then
> > be Arab and Muslim, they would rule the Holy Land wouldn't they ? As
> > they rule all the Muslims lands, like Libya.
>
> > Well, in short, that is hopefully never going to happen ina Israel.
>
> > in that area are also looking forward to seeing it, next year.
>
>
> läs mer »
kenneth harrow
there is a lot here, too much to respond in detail, which is beyond my
capacities and knowledge. i know something about israel, not as much as
real experts. but i have had a stake in this knowledge, whatever that
counts for.
i do not believe the survival of jews depends on the existence of
israel, as i did believe when i was younger. i certainly do not believe
whatever israeli politicians decide is good is necessarily good.
dear cornelius, i don't know quite how to make this soft, but the
conditions of the occupation in gaza are unacceptable. you can find
rightwing israeli or american jews who deny that; that doesn't change
anything.
are some palestinains fighting back, and saying hateful things about
jews? of course. does that mean hamas and fatah won't make peace, or
even that they are the same? i do not believe so.
this is the bottom line for me, and it is a line that separates me from
pius, partly, in viewing the question of jewish rights to a presence in
israel. much of this slight historical knowledge comes from tom segev's
One Palestine Complete.
the jews and arabs came to occupy two more or less divided camps during
the period of zionist development and immigration in the first half of
the 20th c. there were many on both sides willing to live together
peacefully. there were also, on both sides, hardlines wishing to drive
the other out.
by the end of this period, around the time of world war 2, there were
about an equal number of jews and arabs, about half a million each,
whereas at the turn of the century there were about 10% jews.
the jews who immigrated were seeking a decent life outside a europe that
was antisemitic.
who on this list would oppose that? is there ever a reason to oppose
people migrating to other lands? to conquer, that is not the same.
jewish zionist migration, look into it, it was people who were being
persecuted in places like russia where my uncle's mother had her head
cut off by kazacks during pograms. should his family not have migrated
to israel, or later to the u.s.? pius cites indigenous peoples; but what
of the bantu migrations? or any other? conquest is not justified; but
migration is, and i must state i oppose limits to migrations anywhere.
the brits didn't want the balance between arabs and jews unsettled, so
tried to slow down jewish immigration. jews had no where to go during
world war two, were turned back by america and most of the rest of the
world. to me, opposing immigration is fascist. now it is called
neofascist, national front, or sarah palin, michelle bachman; same thing.
then the war came: israel survived, but the palestinians lost the west
bank to jordan, and egypt took the sinai. that was reversed in 67.
since they\n, occupation, oppression, hatred.
i spoke this last year to a young israeli friend, and this is what he
told me. take it for what it is worth. as he grew up, there was conflict
between palestinians and israelis; but not racism. now there are no more
palestinian arabs working in israel, and the racism of israelis has
taken hold against arabs. the possibility of a peace movement or a
political party on the left having a voice is gone as people are
convinced that security has to trump all other concerns, and that
security comes from military power.
it is the very worst time in israeli politics, with peace yielding to
domination, and hatred supplanting notions of living together. like the
right wing in the globalnorth.
i don't know what people living in the misery of gaza are supposed to
feel towards israelis under these conditions.
i do not understand, cornelius, you who seek ways to avoid war if
possible, and believe that people can establish dialogue and resolve
differences, can accept the demonization of palestinians as the israeli
right has established. when i speak to my palestinian student whose home
is threatened in east jerusalem, i can only lament at the
unreasonableness of the israeli political right, the jewish american
right, that seems totally indifferent to palestinians.
cornelius, we don't really do that to others, do we, believe they are
all fanatical maniacs? when muslims are treated thus by westerners, you
are the most eloquent defender of islam. what happened here? being
jewish is not a monolithic position that requires fidelity to a state at
all costs. i do not understand you. if you speak of the aggressive
rhetoric of hamas, fatah, and hizbollah, why do you not speak of the
aggressive rhetoric of kahane or likud, its "facts on the ground," with
now half a million settlers taking over palestinians meager lands. why
don't you care about that? why do you draw a line at palestinians for
your understanding?
hashem has more than one face. miriam's song is only one side.
ken
On 7/22/11 5:50 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
> Shalom,
>
> I should like to point out that I especially like the 12th Blessing of
> the Amidah:
>
> � And for the slanderers, let there be no hope;
> and may all wickedness perish in an instant;
> and may all Your enemies be cut down speedily.
> The wanton sinners � May You speedily uproot, smash, cast down and
> humble -
> speedily in our days.
> Blessed are You Hashem, Who breaks enemies and humbles wanton
> sinners.�
>
> I realise that we are dealing with human nature, not with the nature
> of angels and that there are hackers, hack writers and journalists,
> even human refuse, being bankrolled by moneyed jihadists, to make
> vicious propaganda against the Jewish State. We know that some of
> them are prepared to even sell their own grandmothers for money.
>
> And there are those who reel off a series of insults, such as �Israel
> is in fact founded on racism at its core�, other such blasphemies,
> distortions, false charges, all of which we are expected to accept as
> their own sacred contribution to objective truth and beyond dispute -
> and - on top of all that, when they say that they don't want to
> �debate� such controversial issues, that's a very tall order indeed.
>
> I am often torn between these two poles, the tension that exists
> between
> on the one hand, after the Amidah the prayer which begins
>
> �My God,
> keep my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
> May my soul be silent to them that curse me
> and may my soul be as the dust to everyone.....�
>
> and the feeling that for me to be a doormat or as quiet as St.
> Nicholas of Cusa at such a time
> would be a crime.
>
> Yes indeed, Kenneth Harrow loves justice, but I don't think that he is
> being fair, the way he represents the dilemmas, without even as much
> as mentioning the terrorists who belong to the Paradise Cult of the
> Suicide Bombers and all the death and destruction they have visited
> upon innocent Israelis and their properties :
> http://www.google.com/search?q=Palestinian+Terrorists&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
>
> Rabbi Meir Kahane states in his excellent � Our Challenge� published
> in 1974 (page 128):
>
> �The right of the state of Israel to exist is dependent upon the right
> of the Jew to a land of Israel
> The state can do nothing in denigration of the imperatives of the
> land. And if the decree of the land of Israel through the Jewish
> heritage is that every Jew has a right to enter and live there, then
> no Knesset and no state can do anything to contradict that edict.
>
> Here we have one more example of the corruption of the true meaning of
> the State of Israel vis-a-vis the Jewish people. Instead of an
> affirmation of the Jewish people as an indivisible nation with each
> and every Jew entitled to the same rights from the Jewish state , we
> find that there are indeed �Jews� and � Israelis�. The criminal born
> in Tel Aviv is not deported from Israel, but the one who tries to
> enter the land from Chicago is. A 72-year old �foreign� criminal
> becomes a �danger to the state�, but a native born communist whose
> allegiance is to Moscow is not. A �foreign�Jew who is deemed �
> undesirable� cannot live in the land of Israel but hundreds of
> thousands of Arabs can.�
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=Meir+Kahane+%3A+Our+Challenge%2C&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
>
> I really like most of what Rabbi Kahane has said:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=+++Rabbi+Meir+Kahane+%3A+Writings&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
>
> For many of us, honesty is the best policy: therefore I would like to
> have more clarity about these doubtful matters:
>
> You say that you �once considered israel necessary to the survival of
> the jewish people�.The fact of the matter is that the enemies of
> Israel not least of all Iran, continue to threaten Israel, and this
> means that the survival of the Jewish people of Israel is at stake.
> Israel need only lose one war, and then most of the anti-Semites, the
> anti-Zionists and the self-hating Jews who are currently yapping about
> �occupied territories�would be yapping about occupied territories no
> more and be happy that they had nothing more to yappy about.
>
> And even more seriously, the fact of the matter is that the Jewish
> Faith with all 613 Mitzvoth can only be fully practised in the Land of
> Israel in which we all pray that the Beit Hamikdash will be built in
> the Holy City of Jerusalem, soon, in our days.
>
> So, cheer up everybody, all will be well in the end:
>
> http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15933/jewish/Chapter-2.htm
>
> You say that, �many would agree that israel lost its credibility when
> it turned, since
> 67, into an occupier who abused palestinians.�
>
> Here's the nitty-gritty about Judea and Samaria which in more recent
> history, some call The West Bank� - all of which you know better than
> anyone, but not everyone knows:
>
> http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_101.html
>
> http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_102.html
>
> http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_06.html
>
> and from my trustworthy source:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?rawq=occupation%3F&q=site%3Awww.israpundit.com+occupation%3F&submit=Search
>
> �cornelius wants to claim that jews have a right to the eretz-israel.
> we
> have no right to anything if it means oppressing others. we forfeited
> that right, gaza stands as a reproach to any religious claims for
> legitimacy. �
>
> Professor Harrow!!!!! Have a heart. Please!
> It's the Almighty, and not Cornelius who gave Israel to the Jewish
> people as an everlasting heritage!
> And as for Gaza � it has a surplus of everything, apart from weapons :
> they have food, medicines, shopping malls etc. Ariel Sharon uprooted
> 15, 000 �Settlers� and made it judenrein � as a result of which Hamas
> and co-jihadists are still terrorising the Israeli inhabitants of
> Sderot and environs with their rockets... and hope to be rewarded
> with no less than 72 virgins each (in paradise) for murder....and
> mass murder, for a Holocaust.....
>
> For the religious-minded and the curious, Chapter 4's � Israel and the
> Nations� on pages 133- 146 of Moshe Chaim Luzzato's �The Way of God� ,
>> l�s mer �
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Kenneth,
Shabbat Shalom!
Israel, the Almighty's gift to His people and to mankind is the heart
and soul of Jewish existence.
Approximately six million Jews live in Israel today.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=the+land+of+israel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
Do you not say,
"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my
mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy."
?
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16358
I am regularly updated almost on a weekly basis by friends who come
and go, about the true state of affairs in the Holy Land – even about
Palestinian suffering – updated by Palestinians and friends of
Palestinians.
Some of your kind words, kindly intended, turn out to be not so kind.
Your insistence that you “do not believe the survival of jews depends
on the existence of israel” must sound like music to Ah-mad-inejad's
ears and contribute to his justification in wanting to (Heaven forbid)
“wipe out “ Israel from earthly existence.
You keep on insisting that you are “a jew who had once
no
Conversely, do you sincerely believe that the survival of the Arabs
depends on their sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, the so called “
West Bank” ? Conversely, you could argue that you do not believe that
the existence of Iran is necessary for the survival of the Iranian
people. Or the existence of Saudi Arabia or Mecca is not necessary for
the survival of the Saudi Arabians or of Islam.
The Arabs already have twenty two ( 22) states and some of them are
hell-bent on erecting their twenty-third ( 23rd) state on the remains
of Israel – if they could have their way, and you think that that's
OK? Shame on such wishful thinking!
Fortunately for all of us, you are still an ethical Jew, perhaps
suffering from an excess of Chesed which can be dangerous ....but who
am I to castigate King Saul in this late day and age, for his excess
of lovingkindnesss and a deficit in necessary hardness – against the
enemy - when for Israel today it is still a question of “stand firm
or you're gonna feed worm”?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6fvex8kr58
Sure Pikuach Nefesh is an ethical and pragmatic Jewish value to be
adhered to - not that it should jeopardise the nation's future.
And what do you propose then, that the Temple be rebuilt on Ground
Zero, in New York City?
In my humble opinion, no Jew or Non- Jew should play with Israel's
existence and what is in the air is the problem of defensible
borders - the very existence of the state of Israel is at stake and
it is painful to hear anyone – even Ahmadinejad - joking about
Israel's existence, survival, future.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Israel+and+defensible+borders&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
Please pay more attention to the problem of defensible borders and
please keep in mind that according to the Chafetz Chayim, out of the
613 mitvoth, only 77 positive mitzvoth and 194 negative mitzvoth can
be observed outside of Israel today...
> > and may all wickedness perish in an instant;
> > and may all Your enemies be cut down speedily.
> > speedily in our days.
> > Blessed are You Hashem, Who breaks enemies and humbles wanton
> > sinners.
>
> > of angels and that there are hackers, hack writers and journalists,
> > even human refuse, being bankrolled by moneyed jihadists, to make
> > vicious propaganda against the Jewish State. We know that some of
> > them are prepared to even sell their own grandmothers for money.
>
> > is in fact founded on racism at its core , other such blasphemies,
> > their own sacred contribution to objective truth and beyond dispute -
> > and - on top of all that, when they say that they don't want to
> > I am often torn between these two poles, the tension that exists
> > between
> > on the one hand, after the Amidah the prayer which begins
>
> > keep my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
> > May my soul be silent to them that curse me
> > and may my soul be as the dust to everyone.....
>
> > Nicholas of Cusa at such a time
> > would be a crime.
>
> > Yes indeed, Kenneth Harrow loves justice, but I don't think that he is
> > being fair, the way he represents the dilemmas, without even as much
> > as mentioning the terrorists who belong to the Paradise Cult of the
> > Suicide Bombers and all the death and destruction they have visited
> > upon innocent Israelis and their properties :
>
> > Rabbi Meir Kahane states in his excellent Our Challenge published
> > in 1974 (page 128):
>
> > of the Jew to a land of Israel
> > The state can do nothing in denigration of the imperatives of the
> > land. And if the decree of the land of Israel through the Jewish
> > heritage is that every Jew has a right to enter and live there, then
> > no Knesset and no state can do anything to contradict that edict.
>
> > Here we have one more example of the corruption of the true meaning of
> > the State of Israel vis-a-vis the Jewish people. Instead of an
> > affirmation of the Jewish people as an indivisible nation with each
> > and every Jew entitled to the same rights from the Jewish state , we
> > becomes a danger to the state , but a native born communist whose
> > allegiance is to Moscow is not. A foreign Jew who is deemed
> > undesirable cannot live in the land of Israel but hundreds of
> > thousands of Arabs can.
>
> >http://www.google.com/search?q=Meir+Kahane+%3A+Our+Challenge%2C&ie=ut...
> > I really like most of what Rabbi Kahane has said:
>
> > For many of us, honesty is the best policy: therefore I would like to
> > have more clarity about these doubtful matters:
>
> > the jewish people .The fact of the matter is that the enemies of
> > means that the survival of the Jewish people of Israel is at stake.
> > Israel need only lose one war, and then most of the anti-Semites, the
> > anti-Zionists and the self-hating Jews who are currently yapping about
>
> > And even more seriously, the fact of the matter is that the Jewish
> > Faith with all 613 Mitzvoth can only be fully practised in the Land of
> > Israel in which we all pray that the Beit Hamikdash will be built in
> > the Holy City of Jerusalem, soon, in our days.
>
> > So, cheer up everybody, all will be well in the end:
>
> >http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15933/jewish/Chapter-2.htm
>
> > 67, into an occupier who abused palestinians.
>
>
> >http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_101.html
>
> >http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_102.html
>
> >http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_06.html
>
>
> read more »
kenneth harrow
why should the state of israel and its biblical borders, whatever they
were, be the property of israel any more than the temple mount, haram
ash sharif, should belong to the muslims or the arabs, or the berbers.
why should new york belong to the white people who bought it.
why should any claims for original owners to lands be valid?
what, in fact, makes claims to any territory valid?
your answer to me is that of the jewish bible, what others call the old
testament. that old thing. why accept one part of it, and not the laws
that have us kill our children for disobedience, or any of dozens of
passages you could cite that we "nowadays" do not accept.
so, to cut to the chase--
i would wish that you, that others on the list, and that everyone who
cares about a religion, would begin with the premise that all
authoritative texts and commentaries be considered only on the level of
a figurative reading, and not a literal reading. the literal readings
are what divide us into "us" and "them," and in every religion i know,
which is, in fact, all the major world religions, each one explains to
its adherents why it is not only right, and others wrong, but it is
better, and often worth killing others for.
if that is the price for religion and belief, it should be ended.
fortunately, the bagavad gita tells us krishna's battles were for those
interior impulses against which he had to struggle; fortunately jihad
can be read as the internal struggle; fortunately, the meaning of every
single word in the torah can be read upside down and inside out in 45
different ways, on wednesday alone.
otherwise, we are all isaac, doomed to the silence of the victims of
god's whimsical tests, and ismael doomed to mourn his father's
pusillanimous acquiescence to his first wife's jealousy.
there is only one acceptable reading of the bible: the one that brings
ismael and isaac together on the burial of their father. it is the same
reading that sembene gave to the senegalese christians and muslims on
the death of the hero, guelwaar: we all shed our blood on the
circumcision stone, we are one people.
whatever you quote from jewish texts to validate claims to the land are
equally valid for everyone else. to understand that is the beginning of
any textual reading that takes us past the surface of the text.
in any event, we teach our children about the meaning of the passover
every year; the meaning is, the egyptian children are also our own
i don't recall kng saul giving us that reading. i'd look more to isaac.
ken
On 7/23/11 3:51 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
> amended:
>
>
> Dear Kenneth,
>
> Shabbat Shalom!
>
> Israel, the Almighty's gift to His people and to mankind is the heart
> and soul of Jewish existence.
>
> Approximately six million Jews live in Israel today.
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=the+land+of+israel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
>
> Do you not say,
>
> "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
> If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my
> mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy."
> ?
> http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16358
>
> I am regularly updated almost on a weekly basis by friends who come
> and go, about the true state of affairs in the Holy Land � even about
> Palestinian suffering � updated by Palestinians and friends of
> Palestinians.
>
> Some of your kind words, kindly intended, turn out to be not so kind.
> Your insistence that you �do not believe the survival of jews depends
> on the existence of israel� must sound like music to Ah-mad-inejad's
> ears and contribute to his justification in wanting to (Heaven forbid)
> �wipe out � Israel from earthly existence.
>
> You keep on insisting that you are �a jew who had once
> considered israel necessary to the survival of the jewish people, but
> no
> longer does.�
>
> Conversely, do you sincerely believe that the survival of the Arabs
> depends on their sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, the so called �
> West Bank� ? Conversely, you could argue that you do not believe that
> the existence of Iran is necessary for the survival of the Iranian
> people. Or the existence of Saudi Arabia or Mecca is not necessary for
> the survival of the Saudi Arabians or of Islam.
>
> The Arabs already have twenty two ( 22) states and some of them are
> hell-bent on erecting their twenty-third ( 23rd) state on the remains
> of Israel � if they could have their way, and you think that that's
> OK? Shame on such wishful thinking!
>
> Fortunately for all of us, you are still an ethical Jew, perhaps
> suffering from an excess of Chesed which can be dangerous ....but who
> am I to castigate King Saul in this late day and age, for his excess
> of lovingkindnesss and a deficit in necessary hardness � against the
> enemy - when for Israel today it is still a question of �stand firm
> or you're gonna feed worm�?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6fvex8kr58
>
> Sure Pikuach Nefesh is an ethical and pragmatic Jewish value to be
> adhered to - not that it should jeopardise the nation's future.
>
> And what do you propose then, that the Temple be rebuilt on Ground
> Zero, in New York City?
>
> In my humble opinion, no Jew or Non- Jew should play with Israel's
> existence and what is in the air is the problem of defensible
> borders - the very existence of the state of Israel is at stake and
> it is painful to hear anyone � even Ahmadinejad - joking about
>> read more �
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Kenneth
This matter is too important to be treated casually. It is the very
basis of the Covenant between God and Israel
The first paragraph of the Stone Chumash notes on Genesis reads thus:
“ We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah
is not a history book, but the charter of man's mission in the
universe. Thus, in his very first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak
who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws , it
should have begun with the commandment of the New Moon ( Exodus 12:
2) , the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He
explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of creation is to
establish that God is the sovereign of the universe. “ He declared
to His people the power of His works in order to give them the
heritage of the nations.” (Psalm 111.6) If the nations accuse
Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of
Canaan, Israel can respond, “ The entire universe belongs to God. He
created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His
desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it
from them and give it to us.”
As the bard sings,
“Well, the Book of Leviticus and Deuteronomy
The law of the jungle and the sea are your only teachers”
Your quest to bring peace on earth and goodwill to all men is
understandable, even admirable, not just in connection with this issue
but in connection with other human rights issues that you are engaged
in, in and out of this USA- Africa dialogue series.
Just for the record, truth being irreconcilable with falsehood, I also
much appreciate the uncompromising and humane interpretation of what
all Torah Scholars hold to be true: that Sarah's son Yitzhak and
Hagar's son were brothers and that love for their father and their
father's love for them is what, as you say, brings them “together on
the burial of their father.”
http://www.google.se/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Genesis+22%3A1-24
http://www.google.se/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=the+Akeidah
“ Genesis 22 : 1 - 2 :
“And it happened after these things that God tested Abraham and said
to him, “Abraham”, and he replied , “ Here I am.”
And He said, “ Please take your son, your only one, whom you love –
Isaac – and go to the land of Moriah ; bring him up there as an
offering upon one of the mountains which I shall tell you.”
Note: “Your son” - God did not immediately reveal to Abraham, the
clear identity of the intended offering. The Talmud records the
conversation as follows:
“ God said, “ Take your son”
“But I have two sons. Which should I take?”
“Your only one!”
“But each of them is the only son of his mother.”
“Whom you love”, God answered.
“But I love them both.”
“I mean Isaac,” God replied.
There are two reasons why God did not say directly, “ Take Isaac”.
Firstly, He wanted to avoid giving a sudden command, lest Abraham be
accused of complying in a state of disoriented confusion. (This is
also a reason for having him travel for three days of reflection
before carrying out the injunction.) Additionally, the slow unfolding
of the offering's identity was to make the commandment more precious
to Abraham, by arousing his curiosity and rewarding him for complying
with every word of the command.” (Sanhedrin 89b; Rashi)
The Akeidah (Genesis 22:1-24) is so important that it is recited in
each morning prayer. It also delineates and accentuates the
everlasting difference between Yitzhak the son of Abraham's wife Sarah
and - Ishmael his older brother, the son of Sarah's maidservant
Hagar who later became Abraham's concubine Hagar and begat Ishmael. In
the Akeidah, it is suggested that Eliezer and Ishmael are the two men
that Abraham leaves behind “with the donkeys” (Genesis 22.4- 5 ) :
“ On the third day, Abraham looked up and perceived the place from
afar. And Abraham said to his young men, “ Stay here by yourselves
with the donkey, while I and the lad will go yonder; we will
prostrate ourselves and we will return to you.”
“ And perceived the place from afar “ : Note: “ Abraham saw a cloud
hovering over the mountain and recognised it as signifying God's
presence (Pirkei D'Rabbi Eliezer). He said, “ Isaac , my son, do you
see what I see?”
“Yes, “ said Isaac, and Abraham understood that Isaac had the degree
of spiritual insight that made him worthy to be an offering.
He then turned to the two attendants and asked, “Do you see what I
see?” They did not . Noting this, Abraham put them in the same
category as his donkey( next verse) and said, in effect, “ The donkey
sees nothing and you see nothing, therefore stay here with the
donkey.”
The differences in the character of Yitzhak and Ishmael - according
to the Bible - is in essence what separates the lineages of the Jews
on the one hand descended from Abraham through Yitzhak and Jacob,
Sarah, Rebekah, Leah and Rachel; - and some of the Arabs descended
through the common ancestor Abraham , via Ishmael.
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Jewish+encyclopedia+:+Ishmael&aq=0v&aqi=g-v1&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=b0c084a52893d876&biw=1280&bih=728
And there is the irreconcilable rift between the Torah and the Quran
which insists that it was not Sarah's Yitzhak but Ishmael the son of
the Egyptian maidservant Hagar that was going to be sacrificed -
Ishmael and not Sarah's Yitzhak - ( although Yitzhak means “ She
laughed” - when she was told she was going to have a baby - at the
age of 90 years (when Abraham was 100 years old) and she passed away
at the point at which she heard the false news that her husband
Abraham had sacrificed her only son....)
And that is what the Muslims' Eid al- Adha is all about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_al-Adha
So, whilst you may be busy, uprightly proposing your new hermeneutic
for the reading of all scripture/s “ that takes us past the surface of
the text.” (and I'm happy to say that all my reading has always been
“past the surface of the text”) whilst still at it you could seize the
time and sell that idea not to Allamah Tabatabai - he is far past all
talk of the redemption, but you could sell the idea to Nigeria's Boko
Haram (if they will ever deign to listen to the likes of you) and try
selling it to the Taliban, the Ikhwan al-Muslimin, to Hamas, to Fatah,
to Iran's president Ah-mad-inejad, to Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, al-
Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and to Ahimsa India versus al-Qaeda’s Taliban
Pakistan on the Battlefield of Kurukshetra to solve the Kashmir
problem. Line them all up and ask them to lay down their weapons
before the Last Day & da final battle of Armageddon - and you could
ask all a-them to say “Amen” when you come to the end/bottom line of
your teaching, if it so please you. Should you succeed - and a Jew
never loses hope – apart from the Nobel Peace Prize Committee in Oslo
there is many an academic institution outside of the WWW that would be
standing in line to award honorary accolades, to the marvellous
messianic messenger Kenneth Harrow whose new exegesis will reduce the
dichotomy between “ us and them “
Your fine words can turn out to be better and more long-lasting than
laser-guided missiles, Apache helicopters and bombs and may even
replace them or a need for them.
Tell them that the life of Muhammad and the Qur'an and all therein,
and all of Islamic history, the Battle of Khaybar etc. can be read as
an internal allegory and that they should upgrade their muscles and
develop from performing the little jihad to preparing for the bigger
battle against their individual and collective nafs so that there will
be peace on earth....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8RjjeN1H9M
The Islamic position is based on the policy of dar al-Harb / Dar – al-
Islam. Article 11 of the Hamas charter is predicated on that. Of
course, hopefully, they will abrogate that charter, but I doubt it –
and of course although they cannot abrogate the contents of the Quran
they could conceivably adopt your methodology in the reading of
it......and interpreting it......
You say that
”everyone who
cares about a religion, would begin with the premise that all
authoritative texts and commentaries be considered only on the level
of
a figurative reading, and not a literal reading. the literal readings
You could sell the idea - the idea of the new reading to Hamas, who
say that all of Israel ( God forbid) is theirs and that they are not
gonna budge from that position ( Article 11) until “The day of
resurrection”/ Judgement Day ...
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
To Hamas & Co , we could also infiltrate some of the seminal ideas of
Arthur Green ( really not my cup of tea)
http://www.google.com/search?q=arthur+green+%28+Judaism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&lr=lang_en
All I know about him is that I went through his “Seek My Face: A
Jewish Mystical Theology.” , in 2003. It was intriguing, but I was not
impressed. Ditto his Radical Judaism: Rethinking God & Tradition,
2010.
He was in Stockholm some years ago, but I did not even bother to waste
my time ( my ear time) listening to that kind of prattle. ( As the
Qur'an says to its adherents, Surah Al-Annam, Ayat 91
“Say “Allah” and leave them to their babble!”
No matter how you read this, the Qur'an too “confirms” it : ISRAEL
belongs to THE JEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Quran+:+Israel+belongs+to+the+Jews&aq=0j&aqi=g-j1g-b1&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=b0c084a52893d876&biw=1280&bih=728
PS:
http://frontpagemag.com/
I should hope that at least some of the above makes sense without the
support of those links which are meant to share information.
Over the weekend I read Jonathan Cook's slightly dated ( 2008 ) “
Israel and the Clash of Civilisations” and wish that I could share
that too, especially,chapter 4 ( pages 116 – 149) of my paperback
edition....
PS 2. In referring to King Saul's weakness I meant I Samuel 15:9 :
“ Saul, as well as as the people , took pity on Agag , on the best of
the sheep , the cattle, the fatted bulls, the fatted sheep, and on all
that was good ; and they were not willing to destroy them ; but the
inferior and wretched livestock, that they did destroy.”
http://www.jewishhistory.org/saul-the-first-king/
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=King+Saul&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
> > Do you not say,
>
> > "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
> > If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my
> > mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy."
> > ?
> >http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16358
>
> > I am regularly updated almost on a weekly basis by friends who come
> > Palestinian suffering updated by Palestinians and friends of
>
> > Some of your kind words, kindly intended, turn out to be not so kind.
> > on the existence of israel must sound like music to Ah-mad-inejad's
>
> > You keep on insisting that you are a jew who had once
> > no
> > longer does.
>
> > depends on their sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, the so called
> > people. Or the existence of Saudi Arabia or Mecca is not necessary for
> > the survival of the Saudi Arabians or of Islam.
>
> > The Arabs already have twenty two ( 22) states and some of them are
> > hell-bent on erecting their twenty-third ( 23rd) state on the remains
>
> > Fortunately for all of us, you are still an ethical Jew, perhaps
> > suffering from an excess of Chesed which can be dangerous ....but who
> > am I to castigate King Saul in this late day and age, for his excess
> > enemy - when for Israel today it is still a question of stand firm
> > or you're gonna feed worm ?
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6fvex8kr58
>
> > Sure Pikuach Nefesh is an ethical and pragmatic Jewish value to be
> > adhered to - not that it should jeopardise the nation's future.
>
> > And what do you propose then, that the Temple be rebuilt on Ground
> > Zero, in New York City?
>
> > In my humble opinion, no Jew or Non- Jew should play with Israel's
> > existence and what is in the air is the problem of defensible
> > borders - the very existence of the state of Israel is at stake and
>
>
> read more »