One on One-Wole Soyinka
Funmi Tofowomo Okelola
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9eKpycSJHw0
One on One: Wole Soyinka
By Riz Khan
Uploaded by AlJazeeraEnglish on Jul 30, 2011
The author and political activist promotes African culture as a UNESCO Goodwill Ambassador.
kenneth harrow
so, say some, it doesn't really matter that china is in africa just for the money. whatever the regime it supports, whatever arms embargoes it violates, whatever deaths result, it is just money, just business, just the same as anyone else.
here's walcott's great lines from "The Spoiler's Return.""all you go bawl out, 'Spoils, things ain't so bad.'
This ain't the Dark Age, is just Trinidad,
is human nature, Spoiler, after all,
it ain't big genocide, is just bohbohl."
that's our china, just bohbohl.
walcott continues:
"safe and conservative, 'fraid to take side,
they say that Rodney commit suicide,
is the same voices that, in the slave ship,
smile at their brothers, "Boy, is just the whip,"
i free and easy, you see me have chain?
A little censorship can't cause no pain,
a little graft can't rot the human mind,
what sweet in goat-mouth sour in his behind."
china, bohbohl, sweet in goat-mouth, but tomorrow done come
ken
New York Times
By ANNE BARNARD
Published: September 4, 2011
TRIPOLI, Libya — In the final weeks of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s battle with Libyan rebels, Chinese state companies offered to sell his government large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition in apparent violation of United Nations sanctions, officials of Libya’s transitional government said Sunday. They cited Qaddafi government documents found by a Canadian journalist, which the officials said were authentic.
The documents, including a memo from Libyan security officials detailing a shopping trip to Beijing on July 16, appear to show that state-controlled Chinese arms companies offered to sell $200 million worth of rocket launchers, antitank missiles, portable surface-to-air missiles designed to bring down aircraft, and other weapons and munitions. The documents, in Arabic, were posted on Sunday on the Web site of The Globe and Mail, a Toronto newspaper.
The Chinese companies apparently suggested that the arms be delivered through third countries like Algeria or South Africa. Like China, those countries opposed the United Nations authorization of NATO military action against Qaddafi forces in Libya, but said they supported the arms embargo imposed by an earlier United Nations resolution.
A rebel military spokesman, Abdulrahman Busin, said in an interview on Sunday that the transitional government would seek accountability through appropriate international channels. Mr. Busin said that any country that had violated the sanctions would have poor prospects for business and other dealings with Libya, an oil-rich country.
“We have hard evidence of deals going on between China and Qaddafi, and we have all the documents to prove it,” he said, adding that the rebels have other evidence, including documents and weapons found on the battlefield, showing that arms were supplied illegally to Colonel Qaddafi’s forces by numerous other governments or companies. “I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head,” he said.
-- kenneth w. harrow professor of english michigan state university department of english east lansing, mi 48824-1036 ph. 517 803 8839 har...@msu.edu
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified. You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:06:40 -0400
From: har...@msu.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
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Abdul Bangura
Kwasi Gyan-Apenteng
Gaddafi has been responsible for some of the worst suffering in West Africa
stretching from Liberia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, etc.
There was never any hint of progressive politics in Gaddafi's regime.
Indeed, the fact that he has not even tried to rally the "Popular Committees"
to his defence just shows that they lacked any serious content and
coherence as a political force.
On the contrary, Gaddafi has been calling on tribal leaders, which is not
surprising since in the last years traditional rulers have been his main allies.
Hating the US, UK, France etc for their imperialism, racism, et al, should not
automatically lead to the sanctifying of a dictator who did not only rule without
a mandate for 42 years but groomed his children to take over the
repressive dynasty.
And while we are at it, Chinese arms would also kill Africans in the same way American ones do,
they will be paid for with the same oil money.
Kwasi
Kwasi Gyan-Apenteng,
Journalist & Communications Consultant
Accra
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
kenneth harrow
ken
On 9/6/11 8:42 AM, Abdul Bangura wrote:
In fact,�the claim that the�Chinese�tried to sell arms to Gadhaffi�has turned out to be�bogus, albeit I wish they had and even vetoed the so-called "No Fly Zone" yuki-yuki. If the biggest bullies the contemporary world has ever known (US, UK, and France) and their racist Benghazi Arab Libyan puppets can use the most Satanic weapons to butcher Black Libyans and other Black Afrikans in that country, why should China not sell arms to Gadhaffi to defend our people?��
----- Original Message -----From: Olayinka AgbetuyiSent: 9/6/2011 7:05:26 AMSubject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
Ken:
�
Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg�I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified.� You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, �hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
Olayinka Agbetuyi
��
�
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:06:40 -0400
From: har...@msu.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
so, say some, it doesn't really matter that china is in africa just for the money. whatever the regime it supports, whatever arms embargoes it violates, whatever deaths result, it is just money, just business, just the same as anyone else.
here's walcott's great lines from "The Spoiler's Return."
"all you go bawl out, 'Spoils, things ain't so bad.'
This ain't the Dark Age, is just Trinidad,
is human nature, Spoiler, after all,
it ain't big genocide, is just bohbohl."
that's our china, just bohbohl.
walcott continues:
"safe and conservative, 'fraid to take side,
they say that Rodney commit suicide,
is the same voices that, in the slave ship,
smile at their brothers, "Boy, is just the whip,"
i free and easy, you see me have chain?
A little censorship can't cause no pain,
a little graft can't rot the human mind,
what sweet in goat-mouth sour in his behind."
china, bohbohl, sweet in goat-mouth, but tomorrow done come
�ken
TRIPOLI, Libya � In the final weeks of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi�s battle with Libyan rebels, Chinese state companies offered to sell his government large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition in apparent violation of United Nations sanctions, officials of Libya�s transitional government said Sunday. They cited Qaddafi government documents found by a Canadian journalist, which the officials said were authentic.
The documents, including a memo from Libyan security officials detailing a shopping trip to Beijing on July 16, appear to show that state-controlled Chinese arms companies offered to sell $200 million worth of rocket launchers, antitank missiles, portable surface-to-air missiles designed to bring down aircraft, and other weapons and munitions. The documents, in Arabic, were posted on Sunday on the Web site of The Globe and Mail, a Toronto newspaper.
The Chinese companies apparently suggested that the arms be delivered through third countries like Algeria or South Africa. Like China, those countries opposed the United Nations authorization of NATO military action against Qaddafi forces in Libya, but said they supported the arms embargo imposed by an earlier United Nations resolution.
A rebel military spokesman, Abdulrahman Busin, said in an interview on Sunday that the transitional government would seek accountability through appropriate international channels. Mr. Busin said that any country that had violated the sanctions would have poor prospects for business and other dealings with Libya, an oil-rich country.
�We have hard evidence of deals going on between China and Qaddafi, and we have all the documents to prove it,� he said, adding that the rebels have other evidence, including documents and weapons found on the battlefield, showing that arms were supplied illegally to Colonel Qaddafi�s forces by numerous other governments or companies. �I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head,� he said.
Abdul Bangura
SmF
----- Original Message -----From: Kwasi Gyan-ApentengSent: 9/6/2011 9:46:20 AMSubject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
I find Dr. Bangura's extreme affection for Gaddafi rather difficult to understand.
Gaddafi has been responsible for some of the worst suffering in West Africa
stretching from Liberia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, etc.
There was never any hint of progressive politics in Gaddafi's regime.
Indeed, the fact that he has not even tried to rally the "Popular Committees"
to his defence just shows that they lacked any serious content and
coherence as a political force.
On the contrary, Gaddafi has been calling on tribal leaders, which is not
surprising since in the last years traditional rulers have been his main allies.
Hating the US, UK, France etc for their imperialism, racism, et al, should not
automatically lead to the sanctifying of a dictator who did not only rule without
a mandate for 42 years but groomed his children to take over the
repressive dynasty.
And while we are at it, Chinese arms would also kill Africans in the same way American ones do,
they will be paid for with the same oil money.
Kwasi
Kwasi Gyan-Apenteng,
Journalist & Communications Consultant
Accra
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:42:02 -0400
In fact, the claim that the Chinese tried to sell arms to Gadhaffi has turned out to be bogus, albeit I wish they had and even vetoed the so-called "No Fly Zone" yuki-yuki. If the biggest bullies the contemporary world has ever known (US, UK, and France) and their racist Benghazi Arab Libyan puppets can use the most Satanic weapons to butcher Black Libyans and other Black Afrikans in that country, why should China not sell arms to Gadhaffi to defend our people?
----- Original Message -----From: Olayinka AgbetuyiSent: 9/6/2011 7:05:26 AMSubject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
Ken:
Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified. You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:06:40 -0400
From: har...@msu.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
so, say some, it doesn't really matter that china is in africa just for the money. whatever the regime it supports, whatever arms embargoes it violates, whatever deaths result, it is just money, just business, just the same as anyone else.
here's walcott's great lines from "The Spoiler's Return."
"all you go bawl out, 'Spoils, things ain't so bad.'
This ain't the Dark Age, is just Trinidad,
is human nature, Spoiler, after all,
it ain't big genocide, is just bohbohl."
that's our china, just bohbohl.
walcott continues:
"safe and conservative, 'fraid to take side,
they say that Rodney commit suicide,
is the same voices that, in the slave ship,
smile at their brothers, "Boy, is just the whip,"
i free and easy, you see me have chain?
A little censorship can't cause no pain,
a little graft can't rot the human mind,
what sweet in goat-mouth sour in his behind."
china, bohbohl, sweet in goat-mouth, but tomorrow done come
TRIPOLI, Libya � In the final weeks of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi�s battle with Libyan rebels, Chinese state companies offered to sell his government large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition in apparent violation of United Nations sanctions, officials of Libya�s transitional government said Sunday. They cited Qaddafi government documents found by a Canadian journalist, which the officials said were authentic.
The documents, including a memo from Libyan security officials detailing a shopping trip to Beijing on July 16, appear to show that state-controlled Chinese arms companies offered to sell $200 million worth of rocket launchers, antitank missiles, portable surface-to-air missiles designed to bring down aircraft, and other weapons and munitions. The documents, in Arabic, were posted on Sunday on the Web site of The Globe and Mail, a Toronto newspaper.
The Chinese companies apparently suggested that the arms be delivered through third countries like Algeria or South Africa. Like China, those countries opposed the United Nations authorization of NATO military action against Qaddafi forces in Libya, but said they supported the arms embargo imposed by an earlier United Nations resolution.
A rebel military spokesman, Abdulrahman Busin, said in an interview on Sunday that the transitional government would seek accountability through appropriate international channels. Mr. Busin said that any country that had violated the sanctions would have poor prospects for business and other dealings with Libya, an oil-rich country.
�We have hard evidence of deals going on between China and Qaddafi, and we have all the documents to prove it,� he said, adding that the rebels have other evidence, including documents and weapons found on the battlefield, showing that arms were supplied illegally to Colonel Qaddafi�s forces by numerous other governments or companies. �I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head,� he said.
Ayo Obe
Ayo
Foluso Ogunmodede
From: Ayo Obe <ayo.m...@gmail.com>
To: "usaafric...@googlegroups.com" <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "usaafric...@googlegroups.com" <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>; "usaafric...@googlegroups.com" <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 4:19 PM
Jaye Gaskia
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
ken
On 9/6/11 8:42 AM, Abdul Bangura wrote:
In fact, the claim that the Chinese tried to sell arms to Gadhaffi has turned out to be bogus, albeit I wish they had and even vetoed the so-called "No Fly Zone" yuki-yuki. If the biggest bullies the contemporary world has ever known (US, UK, and France) and their racist Benghazi Arab Libyan puppets can use the most Satanic weapons to butcher Black Libyans and other Black Afrikans in that country, why should China not sell arms to Gadhaffi to defend our people?
----- Original Message -----From: Olayinka AgbetuyiSent: 9/6/2011 7:05:26 AMSubject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
Ken:
Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified. You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:06:40 -0400
From: har...@msu.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
so, say some, it doesn't really matter that china is in africa just for the money. whatever the regime it supports, whatever arms embargoes it violates, whatever deaths result, it is just money, just business, just the same as anyone else.
here's walcott's great lines from "The Spoiler's Return."
"all you go bawl out, 'Spoils, things ain't so bad.'
This ain't the Dark Age, is just Trinidad,
is human nature, Spoiler, after all,
it ain't big genocide, is just bohbohl."
that's our china, just bohbohl.
walcott continues:
"safe and conservative, 'fraid to take side,
they say that Rodney commit suicide,
is the same voices that, in the slave ship,
smile at their brothers, "Boy, is just the whip,"
i free and easy, you see me have chain?
A little censorship can't cause no pain,
a little graft can't rot the human mind,
what sweet in goat-mouth sour in his behind."
china, bohbohl, sweet in goat-mouth, but tomorrow done come
TRIPOLI, Libya — In the final weeks of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s battle with Libyan rebels, Chinese state companies offered to sell his government large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition in apparent violation of United Nations sanctions, officials of Libya’s transitional government said Sunday. They cited Qaddafi government documents found by a Canadian journalist, which the officials said were authentic.
The documents, including a memo from Libyan security officials detailing a shopping trip to Beijing on July 16, appear to show that state-controlled Chinese arms companies offered to sell $200 million worth of rocket launchers, antitank missiles, portable surface-to-air missiles designed to bring down aircraft, and other weapons and munitions. The documents, in Arabic, were posted on Sunday on the Web site of The Globe and Mail, a Toronto newspaper.
The Chinese companies apparently suggested that the arms be delivered through third countries like Algeria or South Africa. Like China, those countries opposed the United Nations authorization of NATO military action against Qaddafi forces in Libya, but said they supported the arms embargo imposed by an earlier United Nations resolution.
A rebel military spokesman, Abdulrahman Busin, said in an interview on Sunday that the transitional government would seek accountability through appropriate international channels. Mr. Busin said that any country that had violated the sanctions would have poor prospects for business and other dealings with Libya, an oil-rich country.
“We have hard evidence of deals going on between China and Qaddafi, and we have all the documents to prove it,” he said, adding that the rebels have other evidence, including documents and weapons found on the battlefield, showing that arms were supplied illegally to Colonel Qaddafi’s forces by numerous other governments or companies. “I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head,” he said.
Jaye Gaskia
To: "usaafric...@googlegroups.com" <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 2:36 PM
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
Gaddafi has been responsible for some of the worst suffering in West Africa
stretching from Liberia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, etc.
There was never any hint of progressive politics in Gaddafi's regime.
Indeed, the fact that he has not even tried to rally the "Popular Committees"
to his defence just shows that they lacked any serious content and
coherence as a political force.
On the contrary, Gaddafi has been calling on tribal leaders, which is not
surprising since in the last years traditional rulers have been his main allies.
Hating the US, UK, France etc for their imperialism, racism, et al, should not
automatically lead to the sanctifying of a dictator who did not only rule without
a mandate for 42 years but groomed his children to take over the
repressive dynasty.
And while we are at it, Chinese arms would also kill Africans in the same way American ones do,
they will be paid for with the same oil money.
Kwasi
Kwasi Gyan-Apenteng,
Journalist & Communications Consultant
Accra
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com; usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 08:42:02 -0400
----- Original Message -----From: Olayinka AgbetuyiSent: 9/6/2011 7:05:26 AMSubject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
Ken:
Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified. You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Dompere, Kofi Kissi
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kwasi Gyan-Apenteng
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 9:36 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Kwasi Gyan-Apenteng
reasons why he is hated by the West, but basically you are travelling on the same old road of
he hates the West or the West hates him, ergo - he is a good guy for Africa/his people.
It is a tired and unsustainable argument.
Gaddafi did many good things as listed, but there are also many reasons why his people hate him,
not just "racists" from Benghaz. Unemployment in Libya
tops 25 percent and a similar percentage of the Libyan population lives
below the poverty line.
Some countries lacking the kind of oil power muscle that Libya, with
a small population has, have done better. Surely, travelling with an all-female
bodyguard of 800 troops and dozens of armoured plated cars on every
routine trip may count as female empowerment but not prodent economy.
Let us concentrate for a moment on how the ordinary Libyan feels about Gaddafi
not the propaganda that was fed to people eager for any old pretensions to pan-African aspirations.
Pan-Africanism is a concept embedded in the best traditions of freedom for individuals and
communities not of the joined aspirations of the dinosaurs masquerading as African leaders.
Throughout the sad history of our continent, African "leaders" wanting to escape their people's wrath
hide under some form of synthetic anti-imperialism and that goes
for Mobutu and Siad Barre, Meghisthu and even Eyadema!
True revolutionaries don't hide from their people. That is the bottom line.
Kwasi
Kwasi Gyan-Apenteng,
Journalist & Communications Consultant
Accra
Ghana Association of Writers
PAWA House, Accra
From: th...@earthlink.net
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com; usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
Kwasi Gyan-Apenteng
Kwasi
Kwasi Gyan-Apenteng,
Journalist & Communications Consultant
Accra
Ghana Association of Writers
PAWA House, Accra
kenneth harrow
ken
On 9/6/11 7:00 AM, Olayinka Agbetuyi wrote:
Ken:
�
Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg�I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified.� You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, �hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
Olayinka Agbetuyi
��
�
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:06:40 -0400
From: har...@msu.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
so, say some, it doesn't really matter that china is in africa just for the money. whatever the regime it supports, whatever arms embargoes it violates, whatever deaths result, it is just money, just business, just the same as anyone else.
here's walcott's great lines from "The Spoiler's Return."
"all you go bawl out, 'Spoils, things ain't so bad.'
This ain't the Dark Age, is just Trinidad,
is human nature, Spoiler, after all,
it ain't big genocide, is just bohbohl."
that's our china, just bohbohl.
walcott continues:
"safe and conservative, 'fraid to take side,
they say that Rodney commit suicide,
is the same voices that, in the slave ship,
smile at their brothers, "Boy, is just the whip,"
i free and easy, you see me have chain?
A little censorship can't cause no pain,
a little graft can't rot the human mind,
what sweet in goat-mouth sour in his behind."
china, bohbohl, sweet in goat-mouth, but tomorrow done come
�ken
TRIPOLI, Libya � In the final weeks of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi�s battle with Libyan rebels, Chinese state companies offered to sell his government large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition in apparent violation of United Nations sanctions, officials of Libya�s transitional government said Sunday. They cited Qaddafi government documents found by a Canadian journalist, which the officials said were authentic.
The documents, including a memo from Libyan security officials detailing a shopping trip to Beijing on July 16, appear to show that state-controlled Chinese arms companies offered to sell $200 million worth of rocket launchers, antitank missiles, portable surface-to-air missiles designed to bring down aircraft, and other weapons and munitions. The documents, in Arabic, were posted on Sunday on the Web site of The Globe and Mail, a Toronto newspaper.
The Chinese companies apparently suggested that the arms be delivered through third countries like Algeria or South Africa. Like China, those countries opposed the United Nations authorization of NATO military action against Qaddafi forces in Libya, but said they supported the arms embargo imposed by an earlier United Nations resolution.
A rebel military spokesman, Abdulrahman Busin, said in an interview on Sunday that the transitional government would seek accountability through appropriate international channels. Mr. Busin said that any country that had violated the sanctions would have poor prospects for business and other dealings with Libya, an oil-rich country.
�We have hard evidence of deals going on between China and Qaddafi, and we have all the documents to prove it,� he said, adding that the rebels have other evidence, including documents and weapons found on the battlefield, showing that arms were supplied illegally to Colonel Qaddafi�s forces by numerous other governments or companies. �I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head,� he said.
-- kenneth w. harrow professor of english michigan state university department of english east lansing, mi 48824-1036 ph. 517 803 8839 har...@msu.edu
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
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Abdul Bangura
----- Original Message -----From: Ayo Obe
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.comSent: 9/6/2011 11:21:48 AMSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
As a Nigerian, and one whose country has had to clear up the mess and mischief Gadaffi has caused in our own sub-region, I don't find this list convincing at all! Those are things that may have benefited Libyans and even be a source of pride to them. It sure isn't enough to make me have any dog in the Libyan fight.
AyoI invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama
Good! Mwalimu Gyan-Apenteng, now let me list just a handful of some of the great things Gadhaffi has done for Libyans and other Afrikans.(a) The Great Man-Made River (GMR) brings potable water to the entire country, including the desert---a marvelous technological feat that brings water from deep in the Sahara to the Mediterranean coastal-belt, where Libya's arable land is located.(b) Self-sufficient in poultry, vegetables, and cereals---and this for a country whose arable land is only two percent of the total land.(c) The world's largest producer of urea.(d) The women are well represented in every profession---more so than any other Afrikan or Arab country.(e) One of the largest petrochemical industries in the world.Reasons for westers' hate of Gadhaffi:(a) He nationalized the oil industry----western oil companies and their puppet leaders are still bitter about that.(b) He kicked France out of the Fezzan.(c) He closed American military bases in Wheelus Field and other areas.(d) He kicked out Italian settler farmers.And the following is what Reverend Alfred SamForay had to say about Gadhaffi:I think the better way to put this is, if the terrorists now being paraded as liberators and their Western godfathers who brought them to Tripoli had any sense of decency, they would have not bombed civilians in the name of liberation. Libya is not Sa. Leone and Tripoli is certainly not like where you and I ran away from; there were no power outages that we know of in the 42 years of Gaddhafy's rule. Only when the oil robbers and their terrorist friends arrived on the scene. Life expectancy at birth in Libya is 76 years - virtually the same as France, Britain and the US - which are trying to change thins there. The GDP per capita in Libya is nearly US $18,000 - nearly twice as high as Africa's largest economy, South Africa, and nearly 10 times higher than Africa's most popuous nation, Nigeria. I will leave it to you to compare Libya today to Libya under King Idris the Second. Libya d! efinitely was not a democracy under Gaddahffy, but it certainly wasn't a permanently impoverished banana republic like nearly all the rest in Africa. No?SmF
----- Original Message -----From: Kwasi Gyan-ApentengSent: 9/6/2011 9:46:20 AM
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafiKen:
Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified. You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:06:40 -0400
From: har...@msu.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
so, say some, it doesn't really matter that china is in africa just for the money. whatever the regime it supports, whatever arms embargoes it violates, whatever deaths result, it is just money, just business, just the same as anyone else.
here's walcott's great lines from "The Spoiler's Return."
"all you go bawl out, 'Spoils, things ain't so bad.'
This ain't the Dark Age, is just Trinidad,
is human nature, Spoiler, after all,
it ain't big genocide, is just bohbohl."
that's our china, just bohbohl.
walcott continues:
"safe and conservative, 'fraid to take side,
they say that Rodney commit suicide,
is the same voices that, in the slave ship,
smile at their brothers, "Boy, is just the whip,"
i free and easy, you see me have chain?
A little censorship can't cause no pain,
a little graft can't rot the human mind,
what sweet in goat-mouth sour in his behind."
china, bohbohl, sweet in goat-mouth, but tomorrow done come
TRIPOLI, Libya � In the final weeks of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi�s battle with Libyan rebels, Chinese state companies offered to sell his government large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition in apparent violation of United Nations sanctions, officials of Libya�s transitional government said Sunday. They cited Qaddafi government documents found by a Canadian journalist, which the officials said were authentic.
The documents, including a memo from Libyan security officials detailing a shopping trip to Beijing on July 16, appear to show that state-controlled Chinese arms companies offered to sell $200 million worth of rocket launchers, antitank missiles, portable surface-to-air missiles designed to bring down aircraft, and other weapons and munitions. The documents, in Arabic, were posted on Sunday on the Web site of The Globe and Mail, a Toronto newspaper.
The Chinese companies apparently suggested that the arms be delivered through third countries like Algeria or South Africa. Like China, those countries opposed the United Nations authorization of NATO military action against Qaddafi forces in Libya, but said they supported the arms embargo imposed by an earlier United Nations resolution.
A rebel military spokesman, Abdulrahman Busin, said in an interview on Sunday that the transitional government would seek accountability through appropriate international channels. Mr. Busin said that any country that had violated the sanctions would have poor prospects for business and other dealings with Libya, an oil-rich country.
�We have hard evidence of deals going on between China and Qaddafi, and we have all the documents to prove it,� he said, adding that the rebels have other evidence, including documents and weapons found on the battlefield, showing that arms were supplied illegally to Colonel Qaddafi�s forces by numerous other governments or companies. �I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head,� he said.
Abdul Bangura
September 05, 2011|By the CNN Wire Staff
----- Original Message -----From: Jaye GaskiaSent: 9/6/2011 5:40:19 PMSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
How the claim be said to be bogus when the Chinese have not denied this, and have explained that there was contact and there were negotiations, but no contract was signed?JG
From: kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu>
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
the claim was made by toronto's globe and mail reporter; it sounded completely credible.
ken
On 9/6/11 8:42 AM, Abdul Bangura wrote:
In fact, the claim that the Chinese tried to sell arms to Gadhaffi has turned out to be bogus, albeit I wish they had and even vetoed the so-called "No Fly Zone" yuki-yuki. If the biggest bullies the contemporary world has ever known (US, UK, and France) and their racist Benghazi Arab Libyan puppets can use the most Satanic weapons to butcher Black Libyans and other Black Afrikans in that country, why should China not sell arms to Gadhaffi to defend our people?
----- Original Message -----From: Olayinka AgbetuyiSent: 9/6/2011 7:05:26 AMSubject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
Ken:
Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified. You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:02:57 -0400
From: har...@msu.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
ken
On 9/6/11 7:00 AM, Olayinka Agbetuyi wrote:
Ken:
Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified. You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
Olayinka Agbetuyi
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:06:40 -0400
From: har...@msu.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
so, say some, it doesn't really matter that china is in africa just for the money. whatever the regime it supports, whatever arms embargoes it violates, whatever deaths result, it is just money, just business, just the same as anyone else.
here's walcott's great lines from "The Spoiler's Return."
"all you go bawl out, 'Spoils, things ain't so bad.'
This ain't the Dark Age, is just Trinidad,
is human nature, Spoiler, after all,
it ain't big genocide, is just bohbohl."
that's our china, just bohbohl.
walcott continues:
"safe and conservative, 'fraid to take side,
they say that Rodney commit suicide,
is the same voices that, in the slave ship,
smile at their brothers, "Boy, is just the whip,"
i free and easy, you see me have chain?
A little censorship can't cause no pain,
a little graft can't rot the human mind,
what sweet in goat-mouth sour in his behind."
china, bohbohl, sweet in goat-mouth, but tomorrow done come
TRIPOLI, Libya — In the final weeks of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s battle with Libyan rebels, Chinese state companies offered to sell his government large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition in apparent violation of United Nations sanctions, officials of Libya’s transitional government said Sunday. They cited Qaddafi government documents found by a Canadian journalist, which the officials said were authentic.
The documents, including a memo from Libyan security officials detailing a shopping trip to Beijing on July 16, appear to show that state-controlled Chinese arms companies offered to sell $200 million worth of rocket launchers, antitank missiles, portable surface-to-air missiles designed to bring down aircraft, and other weapons and munitions. The documents, in Arabic, were posted on Sunday on the Web site of The Globe and Mail, a Toronto newspaper.
The Chinese companies apparently suggested that the arms be delivered through third countries like Algeria or South Africa. Like China, those countries opposed the United Nations authorization of NATO military action against Qaddafi forces in Libya, but said they supported the arms embargo imposed by an earlier United Nations resolution.
A rebel military spokesman, Abdulrahman Busin, said in an interview on Sunday that the transitional government would seek accountability through appropriate international channels. Mr. Busin said that any country that had violated the sanctions would have poor prospects for business and other dealings with Libya, an oil-rich country.
“We have hard evidence of deals going on between China and Qaddafi, and we have all the documents to prove it,” he said, adding that the rebels have other evidence, including documents and weapons found on the battlefield, showing that arms were supplied illegally to Colonel Qaddafi’s forces by numerous other governments or companies. “I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head,” he said.
Cornelius Hamelberg
China has recently been selling arms to Gaddafi when China has made
it clear that they have not.
First of all we must make a distinction between private firms and the
government of China which in the end is the authority that grants or
denies permission to do business - even a potentially lucrative
business possibility such as taking over Sweden's SAAB - not to
mention a major foreign policy affair such as selling arms to Gaddafi
in the middle of an arms embargo against Gaddafi which they
themselves supported when the UN voted.
What actually happened is that in desperation some of Gaddafi's big
guns went over to China and tried to make some arms deals there with
the firms that they contacted, and they did not succeed .
The media is replete with these denials and explanations about what
actually happened : Gaddafi's unsuccessful attempts to buy more
weapons:
http://www.google.com/search?q=China+%3A+we+did+not+sell+arms+to+Gaddafi&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
There are a number of other issues here that have been erroneously
reported along with spurious claims that will be vengaged most
vigorously if those erroneous reports persist
On Sep 7, 10:35 am, Olayinka Agbetuyi <yagbet...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the clarifications on the specific issue of voting on the arms embargo, but the jury is still out on the veracity of its violations by China. Whichever way that eventually unravels, my point is that Gaddafis and Chinese models of governance (given the American issues with human rights violations in the latter) should leave no one in surprise if the latter goes to any length to prop up the erstwhile regime in Tripoli. This was my connection with the proxy wars. We know how much surreptitious support the French gave the Continentals in the American War of Independence from England even though a large section of American historigraphy represented that as the sole victory of the colonies against England.
>
> Olayinka Agbetuyi
>
> From: har...@msu.edu
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
>
> china voted to accept the arms embargo which it itself violated
> ken
>
> On 9/6/11 7:00 AM, Olayinka Agbetuyi wrote:
>
> Ken:
>
> Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely justified. You see, China indeed took sides but was voted down. It does not pretend to have fallen head over heels in love with western-style democratic configurations which motivated the NATO intervention, hence its determination to subvert them through alliances with figures such as Gaddafi... Indeed when the leading historians of our time begin to write the true history of the current Libyan conflict, it will undoubtedly be seen as the classic case of the proxy war, the like of which was witnessed in the anals of American history: XYZ war etc...
>
> Olayinka Agbetuyi
>
> From: har...@msu.edu
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
> For current archives, visithttp://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
> unsub...@googlegroups.com
> --
> kenneth w. harrow
> professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
> ph. 517 803 8839
> har...@msu.edu
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
> For current archives, visithttp://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
kenneth harrow
just reading the bloomberg account of this issue, on the site you
provided. it does make it seem that private companies in china made
deals; it isn't clear if they were carried out, or if a variant of the
deal was consummated by the flow of chinese arms previously stocked in
algeria. further, the ntc alluded to weapons used against them that they
thought were chinese.
it seems to me that if the chinese govt says they are now going to make
sure that arms are not shipped without their approval they are conceding
that this might have occurred beforehand.
the globe and mail reporter, whom i heard discuss this on the radio,
alluded to papers he saw that indicated a deal had been struck.
if that is true, it seems less relevant whether they were able to
actually ship them over in time to meet their contract.
this is part of our larger question, still a question open for
discussion, of the role of china in africa. i hear pros and cons, and
remain interested in knowing ultimately whether this will benefit
african states or not.
china built a great road in mauretania. what did they get in exchange?
who will benefit from it? i want concrete answers to concrete questions,
not ideological posing, in this debate. i am truly curious about what
the chinese money means for africa.
ken
>> TRIPOLI, Libya � In the final weeks of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi�s battle with Libyan rebels, Chinese state companies offered to sell his government large stockpiles of weapons and ammunition in apparent violation of United Nations sanctions, officials of Libya�s transitional government said Sunday. They cited Qaddafi government documents found by a Canadian journalist, which the officials said were authentic.
>> The documents, including a memo from Libyan security officials detailing a shopping trip to Beijing on July 16, appear to show that state-controlled Chinese arms companies offered to sell $200 million worth of rocket launchers, antitank missiles, portable surface-to-air missiles designed to bring down aircraft, and other weapons and munitions. The documents, in Arabic, were posted on Sunday on the Web site of The Globe and Mail, a Toronto newspaper.
>> The Chinese companies apparently suggested that the arms be delivered through third countries like Algeria or South Africa. Like China, those countries opposed the United Nations authorization of NATO military action against Qaddafi forces in Libya, but said they supported the arms embargo imposed by an earlier United Nations resolution.
>> A rebel military spokesman, Abdulrahman Busin, said in an interview on Sunday that the transitional government would seek accountability through appropriate international channels. Mr. Busin said that any country that had violated the sanctions would have poor prospects for business and other dealings with Libya, an oil-rich country.
>> �We have hard evidence of deals going on between China and Qaddafi, and we have all the documents to prove it,� he said, adding that the rebels have other evidence, including documents and weapons found on the battlefield, showing that arms were supplied illegally to Colonel Qaddafi�s forces by numerous other governments or companies. �I can think of at least 10 off the top of my head,� he said.
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Ken,
Thanks for the details. Hopefully the Chinese weapons if they ever
arrive on Libyan soil will be delivered unto the hands of the NTC and
stay with them and not be passed on and find their way into the hands
of eager terrorists ,be they affiliates of Palestinian Jihadists, al-
Qaeda or the ambitious elements cloaked as Boko Haram.
About your concerns about China's future in Africa/Africa's future in
China I'm afraid that what you'll get from some of the powerless
AfriKanists of the Gaddafi's hue is more toothless ideology (mostly
theoretical building of castles in the air about e.g. “ The
Constitution of the United States of Africa” which they say will be
implemented , latest 2017) ) and about liking China more than
America which has given them everything, because China turns a blind
eye on Human Rights Transgressions being committed by many of the
African leaders with whom they do business whereas the US and the best
of the West at least would like respect for human rights as a
condition for doing business or giving development aid.
The Chinese civilisation has been around for a very long time and
the Chinese are said to be thinking and planning for the next five
hundred years. Like,
“Well, I don’t know, but I’ve been told
The streets in heaven are lined with gold
I ask you how things could get much worse
If the Russians happen to get up there first
Wowee! pretty scary! “
For some people, the idea of China/ the Chinese taking over in Africa
within 150 years of the Berlin Conference, that too is pretty scary,
especially since the Chinese have the advantage in the eyes of all
those who look at the past and chime, “The Chinese never colonised
us” ; China doe not have that back-load, so today the Chinese don't
use “big grammar” - they can speak the same Broken Palm Wine
Drinkard metaphorical English as Amos Tutuola : all the Chinaman has
to do is to take Mugabe by the left or right arm , hook up with him
arm in arm and ask him this question :
“ We make friendship? - we make friendship and we do business” and the
deal is done.
Indeed, Chinese weapons could be very big business in Africa.
This news flashed from the Tripoli to the cape and I' sure that it
must have resonated a worrisome chord in you too: David Cameron warns
Africa about China:
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=sv&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=38&gs_id=3&xhr=t&q=David+Cameron+warns+Africa+about+China&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=
Stretching my imagination a little further ahead and should China
want to take it all....I suppose that Africom could come in useful if
the West and China will be battling it out on mainland Africa in the
not too distant future not for the souls ( Human Rights) but mostly
for gold in Ghana and South Africa and it will not be an ideological
or religious battle.
“he comes for your gold,
watch out for your soul.”:
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Rock-%27N%27-Roll-Is-Music-Now-lyrics-James-Taylor/86AABB4E7F2721C6482578300014EF81
The war mongers among the AfricKanists who want a unified African
continental army of their own mostly speak English and have still not
got around to adding Chinese to their secret language
repertoire.....who knows, one day every Chinese will be a professor of
English - but not every colonial subject is yet ambitious to be a
professor of Chinese – hieroglyphics yes, but not Chinese to write
competent linguistic analyses, not even those who would like to be
somewhere in the chain along the Chinese military chain of command at
a time that they could want to be fighting side by side with China for
possession / mastership of their own homelands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXqgk_GPxc
Others are a little more cautious and say, “ Better the devil you know
than the devil you don't know...”
Me? No more hide and speak, I'm going to get that Skype; I'll
continue to be me but like Leonard Cohen, “ I'm staying home tonight”
http://www.google.com/search?q=Leonard+Cohen%2C+Democracy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:sv-SE:official&client=firefox-a
kenneth harrow
i wonder if it makes much sense to go back to the past to evaluate where
a country is now.
think of japan just 70 years ago, compared with now?
and which china, in the past, are we to celebrate? the ming dynasty, the
long long feudal periods, the rise of chang kai shek and incipient
modernism, the communist revolution, the american collusion and mao's
great march, the cultural revolution, the great leap forward, and the
repression, the backward anti-intellectualism that killed a generation
of artists and thinkers, or what, the globalization pragmatists, with
their soft repressive authoritarian state now? is there anything left
for us to embrace?
where is the china we want to love and celebrate in this? now???
and as for myself, having seen the great brotherly b.s. of chinese 3d
worldism in cameroon in the 70s, the chinese maybe the most racist of
any foreigners on the continent at that time...
ok, now it's different; they are richer. but also, from what we have
seen in senegal, again almost completely indifferent to african culture,
indifferent to learning african languages, being with african people,
unless those are people working for them. there for the money, short
term pain, long term profits
what is there to love?
i really wonder what others experience of the chinese on the continent
in our times has been. can others on the list give us something to hang
onto, to have hope for a positive result? i mean from personal
experience, not more propaganda
ken
On 9/7/11 4:34 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
> Dear Ken,
>
> Thanks for the details. Hopefully the Chinese weapons if they ever
> arrive on Libyan soil will be delivered unto the hands of the NTC and
> stay with them and not be passed on and find their way into the hands
> of eager terrorists ,be they affiliates of Palestinian Jihadists, al-
> Qaeda or the ambitious elements cloaked as Boko Haram.
>
> About your concerns about China's future in Africa/Africa's future in
> China I'm afraid that what you'll get from some of the powerless
> AfriKanists of the Gaddafi's hue is more toothless ideology (mostly
> theoretical building of castles in the air about e.g. � The
> Constitution of the United States of Africa� which they say will be
> implemented , latest 2017) ) and about liking China more than
> America which has given them everything, because China turns a blind
> eye on Human Rights Transgressions being committed by many of the
> African leaders with whom they do business whereas the US and the best
> of the West at least would like respect for human rights as a
> condition for doing business or giving development aid.
>
> The Chinese civilisation has been around for a very long time and
> the Chinese are said to be thinking and planning for the next five
> hundred years. Like,
>
> �Well, I don�t know, but I�ve been told
> The streets in heaven are lined with gold
> I ask you how things could get much worse
> If the Russians happen to get up there first
> Wowee! pretty scary! �
>
> For some people, the idea of China/ the Chinese taking over in Africa
> within 150 years of the Berlin Conference, that too is pretty scary,
> especially since the Chinese have the advantage in the eyes of all
> those who look at the past and chime, �The Chinese never colonised
> us� ; China doe not have that back-load, so today the Chinese don't
> use �big grammar� - they can speak the same Broken Palm Wine
> Drinkard metaphorical English as Amos Tutuola : all the Chinaman has
> to do is to take Mugabe by the left or right arm , hook up with him
> arm in arm and ask him this question :
> � We make friendship? - we make friendship and we do business� and the
> deal is done.
>
> Indeed, Chinese weapons could be very big business in Africa.
>
> This news flashed from the Tripoli to the cape and I' sure that it
> must have resonated a worrisome chord in you too: David Cameron warns
> Africa about China:
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=sv&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=38&gs_id=3&xhr=t&q=David+Cameron+warns+Africa+about+China&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=
>
> Stretching my imagination a little further ahead and should China
> want to take it all....I suppose that Africom could come in useful if
> the West and China will be battling it out on mainland Africa in the
> not too distant future not for the souls ( Human Rights) but mostly
> for gold in Ghana and South Africa and it will not be an ideological
> or religious battle.
>
> �he comes for your gold,
> watch out for your soul.�:
>
> http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Rock-%27N%27-Roll-Is-Music-Now-lyrics-James-Taylor/86AABB4E7F2721C6482578300014EF81
>
>
> The war mongers among the AfricKanists who want a unified African
> continental army of their own mostly speak English and have still not
> got around to adding Chinese to their secret language
> repertoire.....who knows, one day every Chinese will be a professor of
> English - but not every colonial subject is yet ambitious to be a
> professor of Chinese � hieroglyphics yes, but not Chinese to write
> competent linguistic analyses, not even those who would like to be
> somewhere in the chain along the Chinese military chain of command at
> a time that they could want to be fighting side by side with China for
> possession / mastership of their own homelands
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXqgk_GPxc
>
> Others are a little more cautious and say, � Better the devil you know
> than the devil you don't know...�
> Me? No more hide and speak, I'm going to get that Skype; I'll
> continue to be me but like Leonard Cohen, � I'm staying home tonight�
Ayo Obe
And by the way, how about the Africans taking over in Africa? If that is a ridiculous pipe dream, do remember that there are people in the US and Europe who fear that the Chinese have already taken over there. Or has it occurred to you that maybe the whole concept of countries 'taking over' other countries is simply outdated.
As to your suggestion that America has given us 'everything', you might care to elaborate.
Of course, in the face of the relations with Saudi Arabia (and, up to the day before yesterday, with Muammar Gadaffi's Libya) surely you jest with your suggestion that the US and 'the best of the West' make respect for human rights a condition for doing business or giving development aid?
By the way, note that the staunchest opposition to efforts to control the flow of small arms comes, not from China, but from the US which would have us all live by the 'right to bear arms' mantra of its own national constitution.
In short, it is not nearly as black and white - if you will forgive the expression - as you like to imply. The devils are not all on one side nor the saints and angels all on the other. We in Nigeria certainly know that. Particularly with regard to Muammar Gadaffi.
Ayo
I invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama
> For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
> For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
Cornelius Hamelberg
“But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
your feet;” and I am treading softly.
Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
Eidelberg says, “When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
for China means "center of the universe."
Now, you can't say of today's China, “ Things fall apart, the centre
cannot hold” etc. etc.
Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
age of 34 - after Mao & the Communists took over – as a result of
which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
Jabotinsky.
I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
"1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
“1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
Ignited the Renaissance.”
The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
telling us – believe it or not , this was around 1962 – that “the
future belongs to China!”
Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
Chinese ills.
I do have Chinese friends and relatives here – and friendship is
something especially of great value to a person from China, something
to be cultivated, so I had better pay much more attention to them.....
I think that the people relationships also have to be developed , not
just between Israel and the Arabs...
> > Constitution of the United States of Africa which they say will be
> > America which has given them everything, because China turns a blind
> > eye on Human Rights Transgressions being committed by many of the
> > African leaders with whom they do business whereas the US and the best
> > of the West at least would like respect for human rights as a
> > condition for doing business or giving development aid.
>
> > The Chinese civilisation has been around for a very long time and
> > the Chinese are said to be thinking and planning for the next five
> > hundred years. Like,
>
> > I ask you how things could get much worse
> > If the Russians happen to get up there first
> > Wowee! pretty scary!
>
> > within 150 years of the Berlin Conference, that too is pretty scary,
> > especially since the Chinese have the advantage in the eyes of all
> > us ; China doe not have that back-load, so today the Chinese don't
> > use big grammar - they can speak the same Broken Palm Wine
> > to do is to take Mugabe by the left or right arm , hook up with him
> > arm in arm and ask him this question :
>
> > Indeed, Chinese weapons could be very big business in Africa.
>
> > This news flashed from the Tripoli to the cape and I' sure that it
> > must have resonated a worrisome chord in you too: David Cameron warns
> > Africa about China:
>
> > Stretching my imagination a little further ahead and should China
> > want to take it all....I suppose that Africom could come in useful if
> > the West and China will be battling it out on mainland Africa in the
> > not too distant future not for the souls ( Human Rights) but mostly
> > for gold in Ghana and South Africa and it will not be an ideological
> > or religious battle.
>
>
> >http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Rock-%27N%27-Roll-Is-Music-Now...
> > The war mongers among the AfricKanists who want a unified African
> > continental army of their own mostly speak English and have still not
> > got around to adding Chinese to their secret language
> > repertoire.....who knows, one day every Chinese will be a professor of
> > English - but not every colonial subject is yet ambitious to be a
> > somewhere in the chain along the Chinese military chain of command at
> > a time that they could want to be fighting side by side with China for
> > possession / mastership of their own homelands
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXqgk_GPxc
>
>
> >http://www.google.com/search?q=Leonard+Cohen%2C+Democracy&ie=utf-8&oe...
>
> read more »
Cornelius Hamelberg
The sentiments that you have expressed coincide / synchronise with
mine, absolutely.
I was hoping that my post would elicit the kind of response that you
were honest and straightforward enough to deliver. You know how it is,
if I said that “all men are bitches”
some men would keep quiet.
Over the years, some of my more revolutionary African friends have
been fond of quoting Chapter Six of Chairman Mao : “Imperialism and
All Reactionaries are Paper Tigers” :
http://www.google.com/search?q=Mao%3A+Paper+Tiger&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&client=firefox-a&rlz=1R1GGLL_sv___SE398
First of all I did not say that the Chinese people were only doing
business with crooks and dictators in Africa. Where did I say that and
what gave you that impression? But some of the guys that they have
been doing business with are not saints either....
More importantly, China has been doing a lot of building construction
work in Africa. Nor is it to be expected that it's all in vain or that
it's all done in the spirit of enmity or solely for profit. China too
wants to have more influence in the world......and that's surely not
supposed to be a crime.
America has given 'everything', was a reference to some of the so
called Afrikanists (anyway you care to spell it even in
hieroglyphics) people who the United States of America has indeed
GIVEN everything they can boast of and that's one reason why they are
still there chirping about their idol Gaddafi and turning a blind
eye on his Human Rights transgressions that have been suffered by not
only the long suffering Libyan people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Libya
Just one of many :
http://swampland.time.com/2011/02/22/gaddafis-blood-soaked-hands/
I have been following you in Twitter for quite a while now....
Have a great day.
Cornelius Adebayo.
On Sep 8, 11:30 am, Ayo Obe <ayo.m.o....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Cornelius, it really is a nonsense to present the Chinese as doing business only with dictators in Africa. However imperfect African democracies, there are certainly more of them on the continent than there are dictators. And however much sneering there may be at the quality of African democracy and governance, it has certainly come a great deal further a great deal faster with fewer resources and greater problems than the 'mature' (yes, there is a reason for that word) democracies in other parts of the world.
>
> And by the way, how about the Africans taking over in Africa? If that is a ridiculous pipe dream, do remember that there are people in the US and Europe who fear that the Chinese have already taken over there. Or has it occurred to you that maybe the whole concept of countries 'taking over' other countries is simply outdated.
>
> As to your suggestion that America has given us 'everything', you might care to elaborate.
>
> Of course, in the face of the relations with Saudi Arabia (and, up to the day before yesterday, with Muammar Gadaffi's Libya) surely you jest with your suggestion that the US and 'the best of the West' make respect for human rights a condition for doing business or giving development aid?
>
> By the way, note that the staunchest opposition to efforts to control the flow of small arms comes, not from China, but from the US which would have us all live by the 'right to bear arms' mantra of its own national constitution.
>
> In short, it is not nearly as black and white - if you will forgive the expression - as you like to imply. The devils are not all on one side nor the saints and angels all on the other. We in Nigeria certainly know that. Particularly with regard to Muammar Gadaffi.
>
> Ayo
> I invite you to follow me on Twitter @naijama
>
> > Stretching my imagination a little further ahead and should China
> > want to take it all....I suppose that Africom could come in useful if
> > the West and China will be battling it out on mainland Africa in the
> > not too distant future not for the souls ( Human Rights) but mostly
> > for gold in Ghana and South Africa and it will not be an ideological
> > or religious battle.
>
> > “he comes for your gold,
> > watch out for your soul.”:
>
> > The war mongers among the AfricKanists who want a unified African
> > continental army of their own mostly speak English and have still not
> > got around to adding Chinese to their secret language
> > repertoire.....who knows, one day every Chinese will be a professor of
> > English - but not every colonial subject is yet ambitious to be a
> > professor of Chinese – hieroglyphics yes, but not Chinese to write
> > competent linguistic analyses, not even those who would like to be
> > somewhere in the chain along the Chinese military chain of command at
> > a time that they could want to be fighting side by side with China for
> > possession / mastership of their own homelands
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXqgk_GPxc
>
> > Others are a little more cautious and say, “ Better the devil you know
> > than the devil you don't know...”
> > Me? No more hide and speak, I'm going to get that Skype; I'll
> > continue to be me but like Leonard Cohen, “ I'm staying home tonight”
>
>
> read more »
kenneth harrow
how are we to assess what china, the china of today, can bring to
africa, that is my question.
on one point, made earlier on this list, i quite agree. when europe had
its way with africa, without the competition of china, the affects of
the past 60 years reflect largely exploitation and negative cultural
domination. largely, but not entirely. anyone who cares about african
literature and cinema, my fields, and who lived in francophone
countries, is well aware that much work was done by the ex-colonizer to
support and promote african culture. that is still the case, as anyone
who has passed through the french cultural center in downtown dakar can
attest.
but the larger economic and political roles have been generally to
europe's advantage and africa's disadvantage. that is why the u.s. and
europe are so negative about china's entry into africa--it represents
real competition. i agree that that alone denotes a positive role for china.
but that isn't enough. we need to see the cost-benefit sheet; the prices
paid for china's support of repressive regimes; the economic
relationships and how africans are benefiting from the chinese deals.
those deals will not be any prettier by our considering confucionism,
probably the world's most boring religion (yes, i did study it as a
student, along with other world religions, with houston smith at mit.) i
see negative interventions in places like the great lakes basin. but the
longer term investments are crucial for this debate, and the terms of
the sale of african minerals have to be known if we are to believe
chinese business is good for africa.
i was hoping some with expertise in this field--about which i am
ignorant--would have something to contribute to our knowledge
ken
On 9/8/11 9:09 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
> Dear Kenneth,
>
> �But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
> your feet;� and I am treading softly.
>
> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
> Eidelberg says, �When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
> for China means "center of the universe."
>
> Now, you can't say of today's China, � Things fall apart, the centre
> cannot hold� etc. etc.
>
> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>
> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
> age of 34 - after Mao& the Communists took over � as a result of
> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
> Jabotinsky.
>
> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>
> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>
> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>
> �1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
> Ignited the Renaissance.�
>
> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
> telling us � believe it or not , this was around 1962 � that �the
> future belongs to China!�
>
> Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>
> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
> Chinese ills.
>
> I do have Chinese friends and relatives here � and friendship is
>> read more �
Cornelius Hamelberg
9-9-2011
Dear Kenneth,
You planned to get away with this?
You won't. Here's some resistance from yours truly : me:
it's me, simple simon
it's not propaganda, this legally mindless ramble is concocted for
anybody's attention : it's just some more questions to add to yours.
Therefore although no one should be compelled to wade through all this
bull you may , if you like
Be patient to the last!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiokJfXQBsQ&feature=related
and no one wants to compare what was once the feudal system in china,
with the white man's extermination of the native americans and their
buffalo or the institution of american slavery and the enslavement of
africans, or barack obama notwithstanding, the survival of racism
which is nothing to write back home to africa about or to boast about.
or what happened to lumumba or nkrumah and and a few others ...
and no one has won the mo ibrahim prize for a few years now., not even
colonel gaddafi the emperor of all africa with himself as the first
person.
makes you wonder, if gaddafi is the king of kings of africa, then who
is the queen?
could ken harrow himself or some other man of knowledge please tell
us that?
seems that after the demise of the iron curtain and after the
everlasting war on terror the next big problem looming large for
america and the West is 1.5 billion chinese in africa …..more of a
western problem than an African problem....
for some , this too is a problem on african soil : africom
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=6&gs_id=i&xhr=t&q=AFRICOm&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=AFRICO&aq=0&aqi=g5&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=57ec33848115ad35&biw=1024&bih=603
on the other hand china's military has been given free hands to
operate in africa as an independent business/ trading partner and a
fixer of deals
but back to your problem
you saw with your own eyes, so you thought that you could intimidate
me into silence or better still compliance with your views by merely
saying “ i was hoping some with expertise in this field--about which i
am ignorant--would have something to contribute to our knowledge “?
ha ha someone who knows ( who be dat?) will tell you and then you/ we
will all keep quiet?
nice try, but no cigar. China respects the arms embargo on Libya.
what more do you want ? That Chinese planes take part in maintaining
the No-Fly zone ?
That China should join NATO?
Here's another brother, other ideas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2mQ5vRJe_k
You ( Ken Harrow) do not represent Western Imperialism and you are not
going to go down on your knees and apologise for it either. Nor is
Barack Obama going to be the American President who will be the first
one to sob and apologise for American slavery. Let the White man do
it. But Brother Barack should push the reparations button when he
comes back for the second term, so that the Afrikanists can join the
Hallel choir.
You are of course fully aware that you are making all these points
that you have made, in an African not a Chinese forum. You ( Professor
Ken Harrow) if you were busy spreading English Language influence in
China ( and getting paid for it too) I doubt very much whether you
would have the liver to have been saying some of the things that
you've said so far in the relative safety First Amendment to the
American Constitution. Not that you are now in protective custody or
that you are bound and your mouth is now muzzled like Bobby Seale's
during the Chicago Conspiracy Trial:
http://www.richsamuels.com/nbcmm/chicago_conspiracy_trial/images/bobby_seale_bound.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjmwsIzakaY
But really some of the things you've said so far, such as the
American holier-than-thou
“ having seen the great brotherly b.s. of chinese 3d
any foreigners on the continent at that time...
ok, now it's different; they are richer. but also, from what we have
seen in senegal, again almost completely indifferent to african
culture,
indifferent to learning african languages, being with african people,
unless those are people working for them. there for the money, short
term pain, long term profits
I should like to make the following observations:
It seems that first you want
“others on the list give us something to hang
Then you improve on that. You now want, not mere personal experience
but someone/s
“ with expertise in this field...to contribute to our knowledge “
There's all kind of expertise. This one for example:
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=+Walter+Rodney+:How+Europe+underdeveloped+Africa&pbx=1&oq=+Walter+Rodney+:How+Europe+underdeveloped+Africa&aq=f&aqi=g2g-v3&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=3303l3303l0l5733l1l1l0l0l0l0l195l195l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=57ec33848115ad35&biw=1024&bih=603
I should like to make these points:
1.First of all, everybody is in Africa or outside of Africa off the
coast of Mogadishu and the Guinea Coast sweeping away with their
trawlers creaming off all the fish.
US would ( if they could) like to supply all of Africa's needs ,
supply all the technology (good business......cell phones for the
continent …..and so would China ….
2.China is not the United States of America and Africa is not the
plantation.
Whatever economic statistics IMF expertise could evaluate/ interpret/
manipulate / reel out, shout about the balance in trade and services
between China and Africa (or indeed through the ages the relationship
between the slave trading imperialist, colonial and neo-colonial
West and Africa ) at the end of the day we will get back to the
ideological and it's about freedom of choice, the freedom of Africa
to choose her best friends in Africa's own interest, even if the West
loves Africa's people and China and have their interests at heart
more than Africa and China love themselves and each other.
Is China killing people in Africa?
It's as if one of the things you are saying is “ it's not good
competition it's bad for american business and it's not fair that
china is winning because the more china does and has done for africa
in africa, the less america has done for africa in africa”. The other
thing you are saying is that on her own Africa can't resist what
China's offering
Looking at the whole (composite) picture , China- Africa is a part
and China- Europe is another part as is China USA etc....just today
the big news in Sweden - an economic commentary I read this morning
is that China / a Chinese company is waiting for SAAB to declare
bankruptcy before taking it over so that they won't have to pay
SAAB's debts. Understandably, it's not a charity organisation that is
going to take SAAB over.
You say : to be or not to be
“how are we to assess what china, the china of today, can bring to
africa, that is my question. “
So, what do you think about the Arab Development Bank?
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=21&gs_id=3&xhr=t&q=Arab+Development+Bank&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=
I see, China doing something for Africa (building all those roads,
railways, houses, hospitals, schools that the US and Europe have not
built in Africa, setting up all those farms and teaching all that rice
cultivation expertise etc. etc.) hopefully they will soon be
training hundreds of thousands of medical doctors, engineers,
technologists, science teachers. All that is better than doing
nothing, better than that state of Nirvana which equates with doing
nothing whether the nothing is done by the USA or Venezuela.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=32&gs_id=3&xhr=t&q=Biggest+arms+suppliers+to+Africa&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=Biggest
From personal experience I'll give you a little example please make a
psychological note of this : After Sierra Leone independence in 1961
Chinese farmers taught our farmers how to get two rice harvests from
banks of the Great and Little Scarcies Rivers. The great farmers of
the United Sates came with the bigger and better attitude which is so
much loved in Africa; they came along in their Willis Jeeps and
drinking water flown in from Florida and lived in prefabricated
houses. Our farmers then deserted the China experiment - they said,
“ Look at the Chinese - they live like us in tents “ They preferred
the Gringos and their prefabs to two harvest a year. Today a few
families from China are teaching and doing rice cultivation in Sierra
Leone ...they are helping to feed the Sierra nation....
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=38&gs_id=3&xhr=t&q=The+good+work+China+is+doing+in+Africa&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=
From experience too, 1964 in Sierra Leone, a Chinese fisherman gave me
a piece of bread which I threw away (have subsequently learnt from
the Talmud, that it is forbidden to throw away 70 grams of bread) .
When I threw the bread a way, he took my toes with his toes, and
squeezed them . He was a little angry.....)
I'm happy to observe that at least you've toned down the rather racist
terms on which your arguments (in the post before this ) was
originally founded :
You now say that
“anyone who cares about african
countries, is well aware that much work was done by the ex-colonizer
to
support and promote african culture. that is still the case, as
anyone
who has passed through the french cultural center in downtown dakar
can
You left out all that Western missionary activity, but no matter,
through colonisation the French & English- speaking world have had a
head start , veer since Robinson Cruse taught his Man Friday, as Defoe
tells us
“But to return to my new companion. I was greatly delighted with him,
and made it my business to teach him everything that was proper to
make him useful, handy, and helpful; but especially to make him speak,
and understand me when I spoke; and he was the aptest scholar there
ever was.”
And you and Michael Crowder know better than anybody that in pre-
independence Senegal the assimilé policy was a successful
brainwashing colonial experiment and that the mostly Wolof-speaking
Senegalese people studied history books which informed them that
their ancestors were Gauls. There are probably no Lamentations about
this, on your part. Thankfully the Chinese have not yet set up
colonial schools to indoctrinate Africans that their ancestors all
came from Mainland China
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=FRancophone+assimilation+policy&pbx=1&oq=
The present state of affairs would be consistent with China's policy
of non-interference in the internal affairs ( in contrast with Ken
Harrow's policy of interference in African cultures and politics)
I assume that you are no doubt looking forward to China setting up
language schools with the aim that everybody should speak Chinese ( I
know a number of Swedes who already do so fluently) and, since Rome
wasn't built in a day, so let us pray and in time China could be
promoting or infiltrating African Culture and you will see Chinese
cultural centres in down town Dakar....but hopefully there will never
be a “ cringe or starve” Chinese policy - a “ you do exactly what I
say or yu is gonna get no-thing...”
I should also like an expert ( preferably a Chinese expert ) to
compare China's role in Africa with Gaddafi's role in Africa......
( apart from Gaddafi re-exporting some of the weapons he has bought
with the Libyan people's oil money...
Hopefully, we are not witnessing America's decline - that
presidential Brother Barack Obama can lay $300 billion to solve
unemployment is evidence of a nation on a way up and up....and we
don't want to see the decline that is rumoured and feared and eagerly
looked forward to by the Muslims who believe in Toynbee that once some
empires collapse they never resurrect. They keep ion telling me that
USA shall go down twice and that will be USA's final end and the rise
again of al Islam as a world power - the world power......
“the longer term investments are crucial for this debate “. You echo
David Cameron who believes that China's rapid progress is not
sustainable in the long time and perhaps that that means that it will
one day be back to the British Empire?
Finally, Africa could do with a large dose of the Confucian
philosophy / protestant ethic.....the work ethic....
It's 14.20 I have to leave now and would not have read this over. I
apologise for all my mis-takes.
Bon Vent :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpNIK8kjOsQ
Have a nice weekend,
Cornelius
> > Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
>
> > cannot hold etc. etc.
> > Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
> > talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
> > can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
> > animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
> > today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
> > the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
> > the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>
> > Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
> > the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
> > who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
> > emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
> > on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
> > saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
> > played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
> > Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
> > of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
> > of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
> > Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
> > Jabotinsky.
>
> > I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
> > same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>
> > We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
> > of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
> > Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>
> > "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>
> > Ignited the Renaissance.
>
> > Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
> > few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
> > future belongs to China!
>
> > that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
> > in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
> > those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
> > Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
> > greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>
> > You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
> > Chinese ills.
>
Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
probably the world's most boring religion (yes, i did study it as a
Harrow
RELIGIONS ARE BY DEFINITION BORING....
' anyone who cares about african
literature and cinema, my fields, and who lived in francophone
countries, is well aware that much work was done by the ex-colonizer to
support and promote african culture. that is still the case, as anyone
who has passed through the french cultural center in downtown dakar can
attest.' Harrow
AN APOLOGY FOR COLONIALISM?
......... and the terms of
the sale of african minerals have to be known if we are to believe
chinese business is good for africa.
NO EVIDENCE THAT THE CHINESE ARE STEALING THE MINERALS
AND TAKING THEM FOR FREE AS THE COLONIALISTS LARGELY DID.
IN FACT THE TERMS OF TRADE IMPROVED CONSIDERABLY ONCE
THE CHINESE ENTERED THE MARKET.
where is the china we want to love and celebrate in this? now???
>> and as for myself, having seen the great brotherly b.s. of chinese 3d
>> worldism in cameroon in the 70s, the chinese maybe the most racist of
>> any foreigners on the continent at that time...
MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL,
WHICH IS THE DEADLIEST OF THEM ALL?
Dr. Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History & African Studies
History Department
Central Connecticut State University
New Britain
CT 06050
www.africahistory.net
www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali
emea...@ccsu.edu
________________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:06 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
dear cornelius
> “But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
> your feet;” and I am treading softly.
>
> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
> Eidelberg says, “When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
> for China means "center of the universe."
>
> Now, you can't say of today's China, “ Things fall apart, the centre
> cannot hold” etc. etc.
>
> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>
> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
> age of 34 - after Mao& the Communists took over – as a result of
> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
> Jabotinsky.
>
> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>
> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>
> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>
> “1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
> Ignited the Renaissance.”
>
> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
> telling us – believe it or not , this was around 1962 – that “the
> future belongs to China!”
>
> Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>
> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
> Chinese ills.
>
> I do have Chinese friends and relatives here – and friendship is
>> read more »
--
kenneth w. harrow
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
east lansing, mi 48824-1036
ph. 517 803 8839
har...@msu.edu
--
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kenneth harrow
my statements about the french support for african culture are not an
apology for colonialism. they are an acknowledgment that the
relationship between france and its excolonies is not an all or nothing
affair. if you come closer, get to know the institutions and people
involved, then lo and behold, there is not uniformity of views or
attitudes. just as the french were working their hardest to insure they
had favorable trade relations with their ex-colonies, they were also
supporting efforts to use the french language, even if that resulted in
films or literature that criticized the french.
for 4 decades the flowering of african cinema owed a great deal to
french support. it is easy to wax cynical about it, and i have no
trouble attacking colonialism or neocolonialism as broad institutional
structures designed to work to french advantage. but i would be lying if
i were to deny the evidence of the beautiful art exhibits, film
showings, panels after panels on writers like ken bugul, supported by
the enlightened directors of the french cultural center in dakar. in
fact, it was there that sembene's last film, moolade, had its opening,
and was shown. there. only there.
the first african films i got to see were at the french cultural center,
that hosted an african film festival, in yaounde in 1977. that's when i
first saw touki bouki.
there is much more i could add, about the negative side as well as the
positive side.
i start to close down when i read statements that want to make it all or
nothing, usually because these are made by people who embrace
generalizations without knowing the details or facts. a great example is
the post-production work on francophone films done in paris at atria
with andree davanture leading the team, for decades. dozens and dozens
of great african films were edited there, under conditions of
cooperation between ms davanture and her editors and african filmmakers.
finally the french decided they had other priorities and stopped
financing it, and the grand project of la francophonie has been much
reduced. but without that shop, i fear francophone african film, which
has really become "african film" without the francophone requirement,
would have been considerably reduced. all you have to do is compare the
meager production of anglophone film with francophone to see the
difference.
with nollywood, all this has changed. the great transformation wrought
by the capitalist, neoliberal venture in nigeria has produced more films
than ever in africa.
life is complicated. i stated this earlier about how colonialism,
despite its oppressive nature, inevitable conferred benefits, as any
reading of mariama ba's Une si longue lettre or hampate ba's wangrin
confirms. maybe "benefit" is not the right word. we take hold of what
opportunities we are afforded, even by institutions that oppress us, and
turn them to our advantage when we can. that happened in africa under
colonial rule and postcolonial rule. how can we understand those times
unless we are prepared to understand that complexity of relationship.
has anyone read birago diop's autobiographies? you will see my point
spelled out there in great detail
ken
> Prof. of History& African Studies
>> �But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
>> your feet;� and I am treading softly.
>>
>> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
>> Eidelberg says, �When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
>> for China means "center of the universe."
>>
>> Now, you can't say of today's China, � Things fall apart, the centre
>> cannot hold� etc. etc.
>>
>> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
>> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
>> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
>> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
>> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
>> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
>> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>>
>> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
>> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
>> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
>> age of 34 - after Mao& the Communists took over � as a result of
>> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
>> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
>> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
>> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
>> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
>> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
>> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
>> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
>> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
>> Jabotinsky.
>>
>> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
>> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>>
>> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
>> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
>> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>>
>> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>>
>> �1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
>> Ignited the Renaissance.�
>>
>> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
>> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
>> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
>> telling us � believe it or not , this was around 1962 � that �the
>> future belongs to China!�
>>
>> Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
>> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
>> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
>> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
>> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
>> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>>
>> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
>> Chinese ills.
>>
>> I do have Chinese friends and relatives here � and friendship is
>>> read more �
> --
> kenneth w. harrow
> professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
> ph. 517 803 8839
> har...@msu.edu
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
> For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
> For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
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--
kenneth w. harrow
distinguished professor of english
kenneth harrow
thanks for taking on this question of mine. it was an honest one, and maybe the answer is that chinese conditions will ultimately prove better than any others. it isn't simply europe; right now malasia is making a big play for the minerals trade in the congo, there where some of the worst of the worst have operated for a long time.
you rightly say i am in contradition when i have nothing to offer but personal recollections, whereas i am soliciting experts who know something about the field who have a lot more than personal experiences to base their claims on.
but the two really go together, if we are to understand the human price of these international relations.
moses really got on my case for comparing how bad things were back home, in the u.s., or in europe, with africa, stating that i was in effect mitigating the effectiveness of a critique of african practices by doing that.
so that has made it harder for me to posit european or global north forms of exploitation in comparison with the chinese.
i have no illusions about europe's role in africa, past or present. no need to be quoted walter rodney. sorry, but i have written along the lines of left/marxist critique of european neocolonialism since my first writings on sembene a quarter century ago. i have no illusions about europe's exploitation of africa: i lived it, saw it live, close up, in cameroon in 1977-79, when i saw the strong strong hold of the french over all aspects of that country's economy. what's the point of it? i am simply asking, now that china has come in, has even supplanted the europeans, what are the conditions and terms, and will they prove better or worse than what was there before.
don't we all have to ask that question now??
there is no hidden agenda. nothing that wishes to elicit how much better the europeans were or are.
there is a strong acknowledgment onmy part that it is good that european hegemony not go unchallenged.
however, however, this is perhaps my strongest concern: the chinese are completely given to the powerplay of globalization where economic strategies trump any other concern. this is true of all the dominant corporations of our day, global north or global east, and they are so ruthless, at home and abroad, that they are willing to see humankind choke on their fumes, and see their workers destroyed, in order to realize a profit. it makes no sense to tell me how bad the americans or europeans are, when ignoring china's role in globalization and what it is they are bringing to africa.
i really don't know whether what they are bringing will turn to something we will all celebrate. i hope in the long run it will. i fear that once the oil in sudan is gone, the chinese spring will have turned to winter, and nothing good will have come of it. meanwhile, we have a nice road in mauretania. so what? there are nice narrow gauge tracks of the german rails in yaounde. a memory of what?
ken
and no one wants to compare what was once the feudal system in china, with the white man's extermination of the native americans and their buffalo or the institution of american slavery and the enslavement of africans, or barack obama notwithstanding, the survival of racism which is nothing to write back home to africa about or to boast about. or what happened to lumumba or nkrumah and and a few others ... and no one has won the mo ibrahim prize for a few years now., not even colonel gaddafi the emperor of all africa with himself as the first person. makes you wonder, if gaddafi is the king of kings of africa, then who is the queen? could ken harrow himself or some other man of knowledge please tell us that? seems that after the demise of the iron curtain and after the everlasting war on terror the next big problem looming large for america and the West is 1.5 billion chinese in africa �..more of a western problem than an African problem.... for some , this too is a problem on african soil : africom http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=6&gs_id=i&xhr=t&q=AFRICOm&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=AFRICO&aq=0&aqi=g5&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=57ec33848115ad35&biw=1024&bih=603 on the other hand china's military has been given free hands to operate in africa as an independent business/ trading partner and a fixer of deals but back to your problem you saw with your own eyes, so you thought that you could intimidate me into silence or better still compliance with your views by merely saying � i was hoping some with expertise in this field--about which i am ignorant--would have something to contribute to our knowledge �? ha ha someone who knows ( who be dat?) will tell you and then you/ we will all keep quiet? nice try, but no cigar. China respects the arms embargo on Libya. what more do you want ? That Chinese planes take part in maintaining the No-Fly zone ? That China should join NATO? Here's another brother, other ideas:
But really some of the things you've said so far, such as the American holier-than-thou � having seen the great brotherly b.s. of chinese 3d worldism in cameroon in the 70s, the chinese maybe the most racist of any foreigners on the continent at that time... ok, now it's different; they are richer. but also, from what we have seen in senegal, again almost completely indifferent to african culture, indifferent to learning african languages, being with african people, unless those are people working for them. there for the money, short term pain, long term profits what is there to love? � I should like to make the following observations: It seems that first you want �others on the list give us something to hang onto, to have hope for a positive result? i mean from personal experience, not more propaganda � Then you improve on that. You now want, not mere personal experience but someone/s � with expertise in this field...to contribute to our knowledge � There's all kind of expertise. This one for example: http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=+Walter+Rodney+:How+Europe+underdeveloped+Africa&pbx=1&oq=+Walter+Rodney+:How+Europe+underdeveloped+Africa&aq=f&aqi=g2g-v3&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=3303l3303l0l5733l1l1l0l0l0l0l195l195l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=57ec33848115ad35&biw=1024&bih=603 I should like to make these points: 1.First of all, everybody is in Africa or outside of Africa off the coast of Mogadishu and the Guinea Coast sweeping away with their trawlers creaming off all the fish. US would ( if they could) like to supply all of Africa's needs , supply all the technology (good business......cell phones for the continent �..and so would China �. 2.China is not the United States of America and Africa is not the plantation. Whatever economic statistics IMF expertise could evaluate/ interpret/ manipulate / reel out, shout about the balance in trade and services between China and Africa (or indeed through the ages the relationship between the slave trading imperialist, colonial and neo-colonial West and Africa ) at the end of the day we will get back to the ideological and it's about freedom of choice, the freedom of Africa to choose her best friends in Africa's own interest, even if the West loves Africa's people and China and have their interests at heart more than Africa and China love themselves and each other. Is China killing people in Africa? It's as if one of the things you are saying is � it's not good competition it's bad for american business and it's not fair that china is winning because the more china does and has done for africa in africa, the less america has done for africa in africa�. The other thing you are saying is that on her own Africa can't resist what China's offering Looking at the whole (composite) picture , China- Africa is a part and China- Europe is another part as is China USA etc....just today the big news in Sweden - an economic commentary I read this morning is that China / a Chinese company is waiting for SAAB to declare bankruptcy before taking it over so that they won't have to pay SAAB's debts. Understandably, it's not a charity organisation that is going to take SAAB over. You say : to be or not to be �how are we to assess what china, the china of today, can bring to africa, that is my question. � So, what do you think about the Arab Development Bank?
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=21&gs_id=3&xhr=t&q=Arab+Development+Bank&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq= I see, China doing something for Africa (building all those roads, railways, houses, hospitals, schools that the US and Europe have not built in Africa, setting up all those farms and teaching all that rice cultivation expertise etc. etc.) hopefully they will soon be training hundreds of thousands of medical doctors, engineers, technologists, science teachers. All that is better than doing nothing, better than that state of Nirvana which equates with doing nothing whether the nothing is done by the USA or Venezuela. http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=32&gs_id=3&xhr=t&q=Biggest+arms+suppliers+to+Africa&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=Biggest
>From personal experience I'll give you a little example please make a psychological note of this : After Sierra Leone independence in 1961 Chinese farmers taught our farmers how to get two rice harvests from banks of the Great and Little Scarcies Rivers. The great farmers of the United Sates came with the bigger and better attitude which is so much loved in Africa; they came along in their Willis Jeeps and drinking water flown in from Florida and lived in prefabricated houses. Our farmers then deserted the China experiment - they said, � Look at the Chinese - they live like us in tents � They preferred the Gringos and their prefabs to two harvest a year. Today a few families from China are teaching and doing rice cultivation in Sierra Leone ...they are helping to feed the Sierra nation.... http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=38&gs_id=3&xhr=t&q=The+good+work+China+is+doing+in+Africa&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq= >From experience too, 1964 in Sierra Leone, a Chinese fisherman gave me a piece of bread which I threw away (have subsequently learnt from the Talmud, that it is forbidden to throw away 70 grams of bread) . When I threw the bread a way, he took my toes with his toes, and squeezed them . He was a little angry.....) I'm happy to observe that at least you've toned down the rather racist terms on which your arguments (in the post before this ) was originally founded : You now say that �anyone who cares about african literature and cinema, my fields, and who lived in francophone countries, is well aware that much work was done by the ex-colonizer to support and promote african culture. that is still the case, as anyone who has passed through the french cultural center in downtown dakar can attest.� You left out all that Western missionary activity, but no matter, through colonisation the French & English- speaking world have had a head start , veer since Robinson Cruse taught his Man Friday, as Defoe tells us �But to return to my new companion. I was greatly delighted with him, and made it my business to teach him everything that was proper to make him useful, handy, and helpful; but especially to make him speak, and understand me when I spoke; and he was the aptest scholar there ever was.� And you and Michael Crowder know better than anybody that in pre- independence Senegal the assimil� policy was a successful brainwashing colonial experiment and that the mostly Wolof-speaking Senegalese people studied history books which informed them that their ancestors were Gauls. There are probably no Lamentations about this, on your part. Thankfully the Chinese have not yet set up colonial schools to indoctrinate Africans that their ancestors all came from Mainland China http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=FRancophone+assimilation+policy&pbx=1&oq= The present state of affairs would be consistent with China's policy of non-interference in the internal affairs ( in contrast with Ken Harrow's policy of interference in African cultures and politics) I assume that you are no doubt looking forward to China setting up language schools with the aim that everybody should speak Chinese ( I know a number of Swedes who already do so fluently) and, since Rome wasn't built in a day, so let us pray and in time China could be promoting or infiltrating African Culture and you will see Chinese cultural centres in down town Dakar....but hopefully there will never be a � cringe or starve� Chinese policy - a � you do exactly what I say or yu is gonna get no-thing...� I should also like an expert ( preferably a Chinese expert ) to compare China's role in Africa with Gaddafi's role in Africa...... ( apart from Gaddafi re-exporting some of the weapons he has bought with the Libyan people's oil money... Hopefully, we are not witnessing America's decline - that presidential Brother Barack Obama can lay $300 billion to solve unemployment is evidence of a nation on a way up and up....and we don't want to see the decline that is rumoured and feared and eagerly looked forward to by the Muslims who believe in Toynbee that once some empires collapse they never resurrect. They keep ion telling me that USA shall go down twice and that will be USA's final end and the rise again of al Islam as a world power - the world power...... �the longer term investments are crucial for this debate �. You echo David Cameron who believes that China's rapid progress is not sustainable in the long time and perhaps that that means that it will one day be back to the British Empire? Finally, Africa could do with a large dose of the Confucian philosophy / protestant ethic.....the work ethic.... It's 14.20 I have to leave now and would not have read this over. I apologise for all my mis-takes. Bon Vent :
Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of animosity �towards China for China being the only nation emerging in today's world, with the potential of �making even greater strides in the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in the near future. That's real not just potential fear.Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew �(of Lithuanian parents) who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the age of 34 �- after Mao& �the Communists took over as a result of which they lost their business and he �emigrated to Israel. He emigrated to Sweden in 1983 �and I met him in 1995. from which point on until about nine months before he passed away �at the age of 92, I saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the Chinese people have a sixth sense �in their hands ,greater dexterity of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of �Vladimir Jabotinsky.
I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs of development, a strong foundation, �the more �recent China of which Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
"1421 The Year China Discovered the World"1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and Ignited the Renaissance.
� The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school, Major �A.T. Von S. Bradshaw �( an Englishman ) used to spend the first few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and telling us believe it or not , this was around 1962 that the future belongs to China!Now of course we are talking about the Great China �in the same breath that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with Chinese ills.
I do have Chinese friends and relatives here and friendship is something especially of great value to a person from China, �something to be cultivated, so I had better pay much more attention to them.....
I think that the people relationships also have to be developed , not just between Israel and the Arabs...
On Sep 8, 4:45 am, kenneth harrow<har...@msu.edu> �wrote:
Dear Ken, Thanks for the details. Hopefully the Chinese weapons if they ever arrive on Libyan soil will be delivered unto the hands of the NTC and stay with them and not be passed on and find their way into the hands of eager terrorists ,be they affiliates of Palestinian Jihadists, al- Qaeda or the ambitious elements cloaked as Boko Haram. About your concerns about China's future in Africa/Africa's future in China I'm afraid that what you'll get from some of the powerless AfriKanists of the Gaddafi's hue is more toothless ideology (mostly theoretical building of castles in the air about e.g. The Constitution of the United States of Africa �which they say will be implemented , latest 2017) ) and about �liking China more than America �which has given them everything, because China turns a blind eye on Human Rights Transgressions being committed by �many of the African leaders with whom they do business whereas the US and the best of the West �at least would like respect for human rights as a condition for doing business or giving development �aid. The Chinese civilisation �has been around for a very long time �and the Chinese are said to be �thinking and planning for the next five hundred years. Like, Well, I don t know, but I ve been told The streets in heaven are lined with gold I ask you how things could get much worse If the Russians happen to get up there first Wowee! pretty scary! For some people, the idea of China/ the Chinese taking over in Africa within 150 years of the Berlin Conference, that too is pretty scary, especially since the Chinese have the advantage �in the eyes of all those who look at the past �and chime, The Chinese never colonised us ; China doe not have that back-load, so today �the Chinese don't use big grammar �- they can speak the same Broken �Palm Wine Drinkard metaphorical English as Amos Tutuola : all �the Chinaman has to do is to take �Mugabe by the left or right arm , hook up with him arm in arm �and ask him this question : We make friendship? - we make friendship and we do business and the deal is done. Indeed, �Chinese weapons could be very big business in Africa. This news flashed from the Tripoli to the cape �and �I' sure that it must have resonated a worrisome chord in you too: David Cameron warns Africa about China: http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=sv&sugexp=gsis%2Ci18n%3Dtrue&cp=38&gs_id=... Stretching my imagination a little further ahead �and should China want to take it all....I suppose that Africom could come in useful if the West and China will be battling it out on mainland Africa �in the not too distant future not for the souls ( Human Rights) but mostly for gold in Ghana and South Africa and it will not be an ideological or religious battle. � �he comes for your gold, watch out for your soul. : http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Rock-%27N%27-Roll-Is-Music-Now... The war mongers among the AfricKanists who want a �unified African continental army of their own mostly speak English and have still not got around to adding Chinese to their secret language repertoire.....who knows, one day every Chinese will be a professor of English �- but not every colonial subject is yet ambitious to be a professor of Chinese hieroglyphics yes, �but not Chinese to write competent linguistic analyses, not even those who would like to be somewhere in the chain �along the Chinese military chain of command at a time that they could want to be fighting side by side with China for possession / mastership of their own homelands http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQXqgk_GPxc Others are a little more cautious and say, Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know... Me? No more hide and speak, �I'm going to get that Skype; �I'll continue to be me but like Leonard Cohen, I'm staying home tonight http://www.google.com/search?q=Leonard+Cohen%2C+Democracy&ie=utf-8&oe... On Sep 7, 4:49 pm, kenneth harrow<har...@msu.edu> � �wrote:
There's no good reason for this drawn out debate about whether or not China has �recently been selling arms to Gaddafi when China has made it clear that they have not. First of all we must make a distinction between private firms and the government of China which in the end is the �authority that grants or denies permission to do business �- even a potentially �lucrative business possibility such as taking over Sweden's SAAB �- not to mention a major foreign policy affair such as selling arms to Gaddafi in the middle of an arms embargo �against Gaddafi which they themselves supported when �the UN voted. What actually happened is that �in desperation some of Gaddafi's big guns went over to China and tried to make some arms deals there �with the firms that they contacted, and they did not succeed . The media is replete with these denials and explanations about what actually happened : Gaddafi's unsuccessful attempts to buy more weapons: http://www.google.com/search?q=China+%3A+we+did+not+sell+arms+to+Gadd... There are a number of other issues here that have been erroneously reported �along with spurious claims that will be vengaged most vigorously if those erroneous reports �persist On Sep 7, 10:35 am, Olayinka Agbetuyi<yagbet...@hotmail.com> � � �wrote:Thanks for the clarifications on the specific issue of voting on the arms embargo, but the jury is still out on the veracity of its violations by China. �Whichever way that eventually unravels, my point is that Gaddafis and Chinese models of governance (given the American issues with human rights violations in the latter) should leave no one in surprise if the latter goes to any length to prop up the erstwhile regime in Tripoli. This was my connection with the proxy wars. We know how much surreptitious support the French gave the Continentals in the American War of Independence from England even though a large section of American historigraphy represented that as the sole victory of the colonies against England. Olayinka Agbetuyi Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:02:57 -0400 From: har...@msu.edu
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi china voted to accept the arms embargo which it itself violated ken On 9/6/11 7:00 AM, Olayinka Agbetuyi wrote: Ken: Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely
...
read more-- kenneth w. harrow professor of english michigan state university department of english east lansing, mi 48824-1036 ph. 517 803 8839 har...@msu.edu
-- kenneth w. harrow distinguished professor of english michigan state university department of english east lansing, mi 48824-1036 ph. 517 803 8839 har...@msu.edu
Ndubisi Obiorah
That just about sums it all up.
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office..." - Aesop
>>> your feet;” and I am treading softly.
>>>
>>> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
>>> for China means "center of the universe."
>>>
>>> cannot hold” etc. etc.
>>>
>>> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
>>> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
>>> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
>>> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
>>> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
>>> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
>>> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>>>
>>> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
>>> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
>>> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
>>> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
>>> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
>>> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
>>> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
>>> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
>>> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
>>> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
>>> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
>>> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
>>> Jabotinsky.
>>>
>>> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
>>> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>>>
>>> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
>>> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
>>> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>>>
>>> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>>>
>>> Ignited the Renaissance.”
>>>
>>> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
>>> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
>>> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
>>> future belongs to China!”
>>>
>>> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
>>> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
>>> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
>>> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
>>> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>>>
>>> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
>>> Chinese ills.
>>>
Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Dr. Gloria Emeagwali
www.africahistory.net<http://www.africahistory.net/>
www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali<http://www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali>
emea...@ccsu.edu<mailto:emea...@ccsu.edu>
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ndubisi Obiorah [nobi...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 12:24 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
"...the enlightened directors of the french cultural center in dakar. in fact, it was there that sembene's last film, moolade, had its opening, and was shown. there. only there."
That just about sums it all up.
Ndubisi
"We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office..." - Aesop
>> www.africahistory.net<http://www.africahistory.net>
>> www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali<http://www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali>
>> emea...@ccsu.edu<mailto:emea...@ccsu.edu>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
>> [usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
>> [har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>]
>> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 10:06 AM
>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>> On Sep 7, 10:35 am, Olayinka Agbetuyi<yagbet...@hotmail.com<mailto:yagbet...@hotmail.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the clarifications on the specific issue of voting on the
>>>>>>>> arms embargo, but the jury is still out on the veracity of its violations by
>>>>>>>> China. Whichever way that eventually unravels, my point is that Gaddafis
>>>>>>>> and Chinese models of governance (given the American issues with human
>>>>>>>> rights violations in the latter) should leave no one in surprise if the
>>>>>>>> latter goes to any length to prop up the erstwhile regime in Tripoli. This
>>>>>>>> was my connection with the proxy wars. We know how much surreptitious
>>>>>>>> support the French gave the Continentals in the American War of Independence
>>>>>>>> from England even though a large section of American historigraphy
>>>>>>>> represented that as the sole victory of the colonies against England.
>>>>>>>> Olayinka Agbetuyi
>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:02:57 -0400
>>>>>>>> From: har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>
>>>>>>>> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - chinese arms for ghaddafi
>>>>>>>> china voted to accept the arms embargo which it itself violated
>>>>>>>> ken
>>>>>>>> On 9/6/11 7:00 AM, Olayinka Agbetuyi wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ken:
>>>>>>>> Having read some of Abdul Bangura's opinions and the view of
>>>>>>>> Friedman in the article supplied by Cornelius Hamelberg I do not know
>>>>>>>> whether the comparison between China and Walcotts poem is entirely
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> read more »
>>
>> --
>> kenneth w. harrow
>> professor of english
>> michigan state university
>> department of english
>> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
>> ph. 517 803 8839
>> har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa
>> Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
>> For current archives, visit
>> http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
>> For previous archives, visit
>> http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
>> To post to this group, send an email to
>> USAAfric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
>> unsub...@googlegroups.com<mailto:unsub...@googlegroups.com>
>>
>
> --
> kenneth w. harrow
> distinguished professor of english
> michigan state university
> department of english
> east lansing, mi 48824-1036
> ph. 517 803 8839
> har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa
> Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
> For current archives, visit
> http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
> For previous archives, visit
> http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
> To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
> unsub...@googlegroups.com<mailto:unsub...@googlegroups.com>
kenneth harrow
is this the duel of poems? i could pull out my Cahier d'un retour for
the same points... but what is the point?
is it all or nothing, then? one truth, or something more complex? if
it's one truth, then it's monologic, and we have nothing really to say
to each other
ken
>>>> �But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
>>>> your feet;� and I am treading softly.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
>>>> Eidelberg says, �When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
>>>> for China means "center of the universe."
>>>>
>>>> Now, you can't say of today's China, � Things fall apart, the centre
>>>> cannot hold� etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
>>>> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
>>>> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
>>>> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
>>>> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
>>>> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
>>>> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>>>>
>>>> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
>>>> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
>>>> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
>>>> age of 34 - after Mao& the Communists took over � as a result of
>>>> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
>>>> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
>>>> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
>>>> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
>>>> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
>>>> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
>>>> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
>>>> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
>>>> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
>>>> Jabotinsky.
>>>>
>>>> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
>>>> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>>>>
>>>> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
>>>> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
>>>> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>>>>
>>>> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>>>>
>>>> �1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
>>>> Ignited the Renaissance.�
>>>>
>>>> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
>>>> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
>>>> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
>>>> telling us � believe it or not , this was around 1962 � that �the
>>>> future belongs to China!�
>>>>
>>>> Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
>>>> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
>>>> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
>>>> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
>>>> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
>>>> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>>>>
>>>> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
>>>> Chinese ills.
>>>>
>>>> I do have Chinese friends and relatives here � and friendship is
>>>>> read more �
Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Senghor's 'Femmes noires'. Am I missing something?
By the way you pulled out your Birago Diop flash card
and I indicated my preference for David Diop. What's the problem?
Dr. Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History & African Studies
History Department
Central Connecticut State University
New Britain
CT 06050
www.africahistory.net
www.esnips.com/web/GloriaEmeagwali
emea...@ccsu.edu
________________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 10:22 AM
>>>> “But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
>>>> your feet;” and I am treading softly.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
>>>> Eidelberg says, “When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
>>>> for China means "center of the universe."
>>>>
>>>> Now, you can't say of today's China, “ Things fall apart, the centre
>>>> cannot hold” etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
>>>> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
>>>> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
>>>> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
>>>> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
>>>> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
>>>> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>>>>
>>>> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
>>>> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
>>>> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
>>>> age of 34 - after Mao& the Communists took over – as a result of
>>>> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
>>>> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
>>>> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
>>>> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
>>>> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
>>>> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
>>>> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
>>>> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
>>>> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
>>>> Jabotinsky.
>>>>
>>>> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
>>>> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>>>>
>>>> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
>>>> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
>>>> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>>>>
>>>> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>>>>
>>>> “1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
>>>> Ignited the Renaissance.”
>>>>
>>>> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
>>>> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
>>>> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
>>>> telling us – believe it or not , this was around 1962 – that “the
>>>> future belongs to China!”
>>>>
>>>> Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
>>>> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
>>>> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
>>>> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
>>>> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
>>>> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>>>>
>>>> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
>>>> Chinese ills.
>>>>
>>>> I do have Chinese friends and relatives here – and friendship is
>>>>> read more »
kenneth harrow
i was being too cryptic. david diop's poem indicts the colonialists for
their oppression of africa. it is a familiar anti-colonial piece of the
period, which we would all agree with, but it leaves no room for african
agency in appropriating from the colonialists what served their lives
and interests. senghor's is a classic celebration of the black woman,
but uses christian imagery and marries the two civilization. for david
diop or damas, civilization is a word that drips with blood; senghor
finds what he needs in french language religion literature etc, and
appropriates it. as does birago diop.
ken
On 9/11/11 11:51 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
> How does David Diop's 'Les Vautures' become
> Senghor's 'Femmes noires'. Am I missing something?
>
> By the way you pulled out your Birago Diop flash card
> and I indicated my preference for David Diop. What's the problem?
>
>
>
> Dr. Gloria Emeagwali
>>>>> �But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
>>>>> your feet;� and I am treading softly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
>>>>> Eidelberg says, �When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
>>>>> for China means "center of the universe."
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, you can't say of today's China, � Things fall apart, the centre
>>>>> cannot hold� etc. etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
>>>>> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
>>>>> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
>>>>> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
>>>>> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
>>>>> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
>>>>> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
>>>>> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
>>>>> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
>>>>> age of 34 - after Mao& the Communists took over � as a result of
>>>>> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
>>>>> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
>>>>> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
>>>>> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
>>>>> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
>>>>> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
>>>>> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
>>>>> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
>>>>> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
>>>>> Jabotinsky.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
>>>>> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
>>>>> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
>>>>> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>>>>>
>>>>> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>>>>>
>>>>> �1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
>>>>> Ignited the Renaissance.�
>>>>>
>>>>> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
>>>>> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
>>>>> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
>>>>> telling us � believe it or not , this was around 1962 � that �the
>>>>> future belongs to China!�
>>>>>
>>>>> Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
>>>>> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
>>>>> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
>>>>> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
>>>>> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
>>>>> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
>>>>> Chinese ills.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do have Chinese friends and relatives here � and friendship is
>>>>>> read more �
Folu Ogundimu
The processes of arms dealing described by the writer are no different from what has occurred in other conflicts where western and eastern powers violated UN embargoes to sell arms to opposing sides. Do you remember Iran-Contra, UNITA-FRELIMO, Somalia, Congo, etc.
Thanks
Folu
Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> “But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under
>>>>>> your feet;” and I am treading softly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it does make sense to review the past. As Professor Paul
>>>>>> Eidelberg says, “When I visited China, I learned that the Chinese word
>>>>>> for China means "center of the universe."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, you can't say of today's China, “ Things fall apart, the centre
>>>>>> cannot hold” etc. etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whilst not reviling any of China's past ( Professor Eidelberg doesn't
>>>>>> talk about it ( China's past) in the article I am referring to and
>>>>>> can't find at the moment ) but he does however show a lot of
>>>>>> animosity towards China for China being the only nation emerging in
>>>>>> today's world, with the potential of making even greater strides in
>>>>>> the coming decades if not centuries, to challenge Western dominance in
>>>>>> the near future. That's real not just potential fear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Once upon a time in this world my best friend was was a gentleman by
>>>>>> the name Dr. Michael Tunkel, a Lithuanian Jew (of Lithuanian parents)
>>>>>> who was born and bred in Harbin, China which he left in 1950 at the
>>>>>> age of 34 - after Mao& the Communists took over – as a result of
>>>>>> which they lost their business and he emigrated to Israel. He
>>>>>> emigrated to Sweden in 1983 and I met him in 1995. from which point
>>>>>> on until about nine months before he passed away at the age of 92, I
>>>>>> saw him at least two to three times a week. He taught me a lot. He
>>>>>> played Chinese piano. He said that unlike us normal mortals, the
>>>>>> Chinese people have a sixth sense in their hands ,greater dexterity
>>>>>> of the hand - a more developed tactile sense... He was a great admirer
>>>>>> of Mao and the Chinese people with special emphasis on the fact that
>>>>>> Mao united China. He was also a devoted hardliner fan of Vladimir
>>>>>> Jabotinsky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm talking about the China that produced Confucius and Li Po, the
>>>>>> same China that the United States owes four trillion dollars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are talking about the same China, the same continuum, many epochs
>>>>>> of development, a strong foundation, the more recent China of which
>>>>>> Gavin Menzies, wrote these two books:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "1421 The Year China Discovered the World"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and
>>>>>> Ignited the Renaissance.”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The China of which one of my English teachers in secondary school,
>>>>>> Major A.T. Von S. Bradshaw ( an Englishman ) used to spend the first
>>>>>> few minutes of every English Literature lesson lecturing us about and
>>>>>> telling us – believe it or not , this was around 1962 – that “the
>>>>>> future belongs to China!”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now of course we are talking about the Great China in the same breath
>>>>>> that we are talking about Christopher Columbus' discovery of America
>>>>>> in 1492, the same year that the Jews suffered the Inquisition and all
>>>>>> those who refused to convert to Isabella's religion were expelled from
>>>>>> Spain and many found refuge in Turkey and what is now the latest
>>>>>> greatest newcomer, to the world stage, the United States.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are the one raking up not a glorious past, but one riddled with
>>>>>> Chinese ills.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do have Chinese friends and relatives here – and friendship is
>>>>>>> read more »