On the Matter of Islam, Jews Christians - and What The Bible and Quran say
Mobolaji ALUKO
I am a Christian, in fact I am a Christian apologist, and not a Muslim apologist by any stretch of imagination. While I would like ALL people, all human beings, to become Christians, I know, I am certain that that is not possible, and it is NOT predicted in the Bible anyway. Therefore I will have to live with the fact that MANY MANY people will NOT be Christians, and many of those people will actually be Muslims.
I also come from a country Nigeria where there are MANY Muslims, in fact, half-and-half Christian and Muslim, and come from an ethnic group where it is maybe 40-60 Muslim/Christian, if not half-and-half. For 140 million Nigerians and 25-35 million Yoruba, that is a lot of non-Christians to deal with, and I might as well understand some of what makes them tick, particularly their belief-system about non-Muslims.
Now, for us Christians, we have two charges which Jesus Christ says are the totality of the Ten Commandments:
1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself
This was in Luke 10.27, which was a concise restatement of Leviticus 19:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5.
Add to this the "Golden Rule" in Matthew 7:12 [and Luke 6.31]:
3. "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
We are also reminded of the two Pauline (St. Paul) admonitions:
4. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor. 6:14, KJV). (This does not say that you should not be yoked, just not "un-equally).
4. "9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." [1 Corinthians 5:9-13]
The second admonition is pretty clear about not judging "those outside the church." Paul did not lay down laws like Jesus Christ or Moses, but his deep attunement with the Holy Spirit meant that going outside his admonitions invites avoidable trouble.
Now, many many years ago, I bought an English translation of the Koran to better educate myself about Islam. Since the Koran itself is fairly easy to read - just one-hundred and fourteen (114) Chapters ("suras") of varying lengths (Chapters 108 and 110 are for example are only three verses), and not as voluminous as the Bible [whose canonical number of books is 24 for Jews, 66 for Protestants, 73 for Catholics, and 78 for most Orthodox Christians, each book with hundreds of chapters and thousands of verses], I was able to wade through the Koran in a few days to read and kind-of-understand its central teachings, what it SAID in the Koran that Muhammad wrote down or was dictated to. I have not bothered to read the Hadith - that is his practices, his private statements, etc. that were put down by his latter-day followers - just as I have not made it a duty to read any particular Commentary on the Bible.
What I also was looking out for IN PARTICULAR in reading the Koran was not a re-direction of my personal faith but the relationship recommended/mandated between Muslims and non-Muslims, particularly in the light of tensions within Nigeria. There are PLENTY of such allusions, with Jews and Christians ("People of the Book") being DIRECTLY named, since they PRE-DATE the Koran, unlike the Bible (which talks more generally about unbelievers.)
I was also influenced by reading the transcript of the Great Debate between South African Islamic evangelist Ahmeed Dedat and Christian Evangelist Josh McDowell in 1981, which has been memorialized by Josh McDowell and John Gilchrist in their book "The Islam Debate" http://joshmcdowellmedia.org/FreeBooks/TheIslamDebate.pdf
I urge people to download and read the book.
I then came to understand that the Koran makes a distinction between four types of persons:
- Believers (People who genuinely believe that Muhammad is a Prophet and there is no God but Allah and practice the dictates of the faith). These are the True Muslims. ["Al-Muminin"]
- People of the Book (Jews, Christians and Sabbaens), who believe in Moses and Jesus as revealed in earlier Holy Scriptures, and particularly in Final Judgment at Resurrection. ["Ah al-Kitab"]
- Hypocrites (People who call themselves Jews, Christians or Muslim, but do not practice their true faith, and either do not believe what True Muslims Believe, or if they do not believe, do not RESPECT the Muslim Faith) ["Al-Manafiq"]
- Unbelievers (People who are not Jews, Christians or Muslims) ["Al-Kafir"]
I came to understand almost twenty years ago that it was not UNBELIEF in Islam or Mohammed that rankled Muslims, but lack of respect for and outright mockery of their faith, that they had as much right to their faith as we Christians had to our faith.
With the advent of the Internet, English translations of the Koran - and the Muslim purist does not believe that any non-Arabic version is pure, but I digress - are aplenty, but the translation by Dr. T.B. Irving is quite accessible: http://www.isgkc.org/translat.htm
For example, in The Koran's Q109 (Disbelievers or Atheists), we read:
QUOTE
In the name of God, the Mercy-giving, the Merciful!
SAY: "O disbelievers!
I do not serve what you serve
nor are you serving what I serve!
I will not worship what you have worshipped,
neither will you worship what I worship.
You have your religion
while I have my religion.
UNQUOTE
This clearly is a verse of tolerance.
In Q2 (The Cow), we read another salutary reference:
QUOTE
Those who believe and those who are Jews, Christians and Sabeans, [in fact] anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and acts honorably will receive their earnings from their Lord: no fear will lie upon them nor need they feel saddened.
UNQUOTE
Sabeans were Yemenis (in the South-west of the Arabian penninsula) and possibly Northern Ethiopians and Eritreans just across the Red Sea ie. possibly related to Africans.
But in Q5 (The Table), you see some differentiation between Jews and Christians:
QUOTE
You will find the most violently hostile people towards those who believe are the Jews and those who associate [others with God]; while you will find the most affectionate of them towards those who believe, are those who say: "We are Christians." That is because some of them are priests and monks; they do not behave so proudly.
UNQUOTE
Finally, in the same Q5 will be found the most troubling portion:
QUOTE
You who believe, do not accept Jews or Christians as sponsors; some of them act as sponsors for one another. Any of you who makes friends with them becomes one of them. God does not guide such wrongdoing folk. You will see those in whose hearts there lurks malice dashing in among them saying: "We dread lest a turn of fortune strike us!" Perhaps God will bring some victory or command from Himself, so some morning they will awaken regretful about what they have concealed within themselves. .......
Your Patron is God [Alone], as well as His messenger and those who believe-who keep up prayer, pay the welfare tax and bow their heads [in worship]. Anyone who enlists God as a patron, and His messenger and those who believe, [will find] God's side will be victorious!
You who believe, do not accept as sponsors those from among the ones who were given the Book before you nor any disbelievers, if they treat your religion as a joke and a sport. Heed God if you are believers. Whenever you call [people] to prayer, they take it as a joke and a sport. That is because they are folk who do not use their reason. SAY: "People of the Book, do you persecute us just because we believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down previously? Most of you are perverse!"
UNQUOTE
I believe that this was what you quoted thus as one of two pillars for relationship with Jews and Christians:
QUOTE
"O you who believe. Do not take the Jews and the Christians for Friends, for they are Friends of each other. And whoever amongst you who should take them for a Friend, is then one of them. For Allah does NOT guide the unjust people." .......Suratul Alma-id.
UNQUOTE
I believe that the longer rendition/translation clarifies matters as to the kind of "friendship" or "sponsorship" that should not be made - not of those who mock Islam.
Time and again, elsewhere in the Koran, there is almost an obsession with what Jews and Christians think about the Koran and would-be believers (Muslims), and it will be worth it for us all to pan through Irving's translation, http://www.isgkc.org/translat.htm, searching for the word "Christian" or "Jews".
Also, when you provided the quote that:
QUOTE
And in view of Allah's orders to His believers, Prophet Muhammed has this to say in the Hadith: "May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians, for they take the graves of their Prophets as a place of worship"
UNQUOTE
then, without qualification, this would be another very troubling statement. However, if one reads this instead as:
QUOTE
"May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians, WHO take the graves of their Prophets as a place of worship"
UNQUOTE
then one will find that this is NOT inconsistent with Judaism and Christianity.
The first bottom line that I am getting at in all of this is that translations and interpretations do matter. Changing a word or a phrase can make all of the difference.
Secondly, Christians and Muslims alike MUST be challenged to understand that in a multi-cultural, multi-religious world that we find ourselves - and particularly in Nigeria - no EXTREMIST interpretation CAN or SHOULD be given to any verses of their Holy Scriptures or their Commentaries, because that can only lead to strife and chaos among human beings. ANY persons, Christians or Muslims, who make those kinds of extremist interpretations must be called to order. If you wish to live in peace with others of different religion, then you must give the MOST LIBERAL interpretation to religious passages whenever that ALTERNATIVE interpretation is possible without being syncretic. If, in a secular setting, you cannot avoid syncretism, then you have to live with the consequences of secular oppropbrium, even outright sanction and possibly circumscription of freedom.
That would be the true "Suffering for the Faith."
I do not come to my present positions about Christian-Muslim positions lightly or recently - for example simply because of the terrrorist bombing attempt of Nigerian Umar Farouk AbdulMuttalab - or with the aim to pander to any other religion. My own personal opus about Christian-Muslim relationships can be found in my October 2001 essay soon after the September 11 debacle:
http://www.ngex.com/personalities/voices/sm102101baluko.htm
"Sunday Musings: Trouble in the House of Usman Dan Bello"
where, inter-alia, I wrote that:
QUOTE
Over the centuries, the traditions and interpretations of all of these sects have also diverged beyond who Mohammed's true successor was. Muslim jurisprudence is also divided between the Maliki, Hanafi, Shafai and Hanbali Schools of thought, with profound effects on the differential administration of justice in different Islamic countries world-wide.
UNQUOTE
A follow-up essay was in November 2001:
http://www.kwenu.com/publications/aluko/aluko_qb111901.htm
MONDAY QUARTERBACKING: Justice, Jihad and the Just War
where, inter alia, I wrote that:
QUOTE
Their contents [of two memos by one Dr. M.A. Muqtedar Khan] are of enough universal appeal for me to bring them to the attention of Nigerians in general. This is in light of the tensions, real and imagined, between Muslims and non-Muslims, particularly Christians, in our country and the tendency to equate (anti-)Americanism with (anti-)Christianity and vice-versa. For Islam means Peace, why are so many adherents involved in war? And if Christians are expected to turn the other cheek and forgive their enemies, under what conditions, under the Christian faith, must these pacifist stance be violated?
Coupled with the case of Ms. Sufiya Tungar-Tudu's UNJUST and UNCONSTITUTIONAL death sentence for adultery in Sokoto State - ably dissected by Muslims Abdusalami Ajetunmobi and Sanusi Lamido Sanusi - these memos should enable Muslims and Christians who seek religious amity in Nigeria in particular to join in the reflections on these issues of Justice, Jihad and the Just War.
UNQUOTE
I have also written (in November 2002):
http://www.ngex.com/personalities/voices/mwe122502baluko.htm
Religious (In)Tolerance and the National Question
that, inter-alia:
QUOTE
Mind you, I admit that multi-ethnicity and multi-religiosity demand that people are sensitive to each other's idiosyncrasies and vicissitudes of life - but within limits. The first order of business however is to TEACH and LEARN other people's codes, habits and mores, either through direct instruction (in and out of the classroom) or through direct contact. Any learning process however is a lifelong, continuous experience, which means that you may violate those sensitivities periodically. Those periodic violations however should not mean death. .......
Mind you, as a Christian, I do not believe that Mohammed is God's prophet, just as Muslims do not believe that my Jesus, whose birth I celebrate today, is Christ the Son of God. So our faith-lessness in each other's central religious beliefs cancel out. My sensitivity is shown however by not coming to proclaim loudly my non-belief in the prophet-hood of Mohammed in a Muslim mosque, and similarly the Muslim lack of faith in Jesus as Christ should be laid outside the gates of a Christian church, not within them.
But we should not maim and kill each other because of that. God can fight his own battles, and it is only devils who think otherwise. Only those whose god is weak who believe that they must fight his or her battles for him, and maim and kill his creatures at the drop of a hat or phrase.
UNQUOTE
I rest my case for now, and wish you and my readers well, and Christ's Blessings in this New Year and decade.
Bolaji Aluko
Burtonsville, MD, USA
"You have raised valid points about what the Qur’an and Hadiths say concerning the relationships between Muslims and non-muslims. It would be naïve of me to even try and give a satisfactory explanation to some of your points. Am not a “Hafiz” (one learned in the Qur’an), but I will address some of your points."
What you should now ask Mallam Hamza is "do you Mallam Hamza believe in the above words of your Allah?"And if he says "Yes", then his religious belief is therefore founded on "Hate". It's as simple as that.What has politics got to do with what Allah says, brother Femi?Mallam Hamza never disputed the above facts, he could go on with all that academic rigmarole, the above fact remains indisputable. And if Allah says the above, then it follows that Afis is not talking "politics" of the modern times or any other era.What I am saying is that "Hatred" for others is sanctioned by the Qur'an. Islamic fanatics may choose to expound on Allah's words, and be creative, but the fact remains that Allah approves "hatred" for others.Please read it again. This is more than kosher, but not politics.Shikena.afisSubject: Re: To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Jews & Xtians, What The Quran says
To: "hamza aliyu" <hami...@yahoo.com>, TalkN...@yahoogroups.com, val...@md.metrocast.net, naijap...@yahoogroups.com, "Odua" <omo...@yahoogroups.com>, "Wharf Snake" <wharf...@yahoo.com>, odide...@yahoo.com, "Pius Adesanmi" <piusad...@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 5:30 PM
I think we are always too eager to blame religion as a fermenting ground for discord and strife throughout the world.My view is quite different from this common view, you see if we did not have religion, other social or economic tool will be used for the same purpose by those who found religion as a rallying tool for their ambitions.Religion on it's own is not harmful, it becomes harmful when it is used as a political tool by unscrupulous individuals who will use any means to achieve their political aim. If religion is not available for use, tribalism, race, class, caste, sex etc will take it's place and be employed by the calculating and shrewd politician for their ultimate goal.As long as some religion believers are satisfied with the religious proclamation not to question the basis of their religion and to dogmatically believe and follow their so called "prophets" or "political leaders", religion will always be used as a political tool.From Osama Bin Laden to Bush to the Crusaders and to the Jihadist, ambitious politicians and individuals have always used religion as a rallying tool to achieve the critical support and numbers for their ultimate political goal. And as long as there are gullible people who are willingly to blind-foldedly follow instructions without questions and rationale, religion will always be kept as one of the preferred tool by the politicians.The danger with religion and it's achille's heels is the very thing that consolidates it's grip over fervent believers, the need to trust in a selected few (usually the prophets etc) as the custodian of their faith and their submission to unquestionably accept every thing about the religion however unreasonable or impossible it may seem.So, religion itself is not bad and can be very valuable to the vulnerable in the society, however, the vulnerable are the very set up people who can easily be led astray when a religion is used by very intelligent, shrewd and egocentric politicians to achieve their political goals.It is just scary that there are so many egocentric politicians in the world today and religion has become ever so important to a lot of vulnerable individuals ..........................................with these cocktail, you can guess what I am thinking!Regards,-Femi Olajide
From: hamza aliyu <hami...@yahoo.com>
To: TalkN...@yahoogroups.com; val...@md.metrocast.net; femi Olajide <olajid...@yahoo.com>; naijap...@yahoogroups.com; Odua <omo...@yahoogroups.com>; Wharf Snake <wharf...@yahoo.com>; odide...@yahoo.com; hami...@yahoo.com; Pius Adesanmi <piusad...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, 5 January, 2010 22:18:05
Subject: Fw: To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Jews & Xtians, What The Quran says
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: hamza aliyu <hami...@yahoo.com>
To: afis <odide...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 11:15:05 PM
Subject: Re: To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Jews & Xtians, What The Quran says
Greetings afis,
I really do realize that no amount of explaination would convince you that the actions of people are not necessarily the true values of a religion.
You have raised valid points about what the Qur’an and Hadiths say concerning the relationships between Muslims and non-muslims. It would be naïve of me to even try and give a satisfactory explanation to some of your points. Am not a “Hafiz” (one learned in the Qur’an), but I will address some of your points.
You said and I quote “The two quotes above are what the Wahabists rely on for their core beliefs. And Wahabism is the officially sanctioned version of Islam practice in Saudi Arabia to the present time. And Saudi Arabia happens to own and found Islam.”
Who are the Wahabists? Is Wahabism synonymous with Islam? And where did you read that “Saudi Arabia owns and found islam”? If that is true could we safely say that Israel own and found Christianity? Is it because The Prophet is from Saudi Arabia? For someone so educated you really surprise me with your outbursts!
“Would our Hausa and Fulani Muslims now claim they know Islam more than Saudi Arabia?”
The above statement clearly demonstrates your illogical string of reasoning. Would it be safe to argue that Italians know Christianity more than Nigerians like yourself just because it is the centre of Christiandom?
My dear Afis, education expects us to use it to better our lives rather than it being a route for destruction.
“Even those Yoruba who claim they are staunch Muslims are really NOT. Most of them are liberalistic in their way of worship, which is called "Manafiqi" in Islam. It's different from being an infidel which is "kafir", but a "Manafiqi" can hardly be accepted in heavens, according to the Qur'an.”
You all of a sudden turned from Afis to a religious judge. It is only you that can explain how you came to the conclusion that Muslim Yorubas are not Muslims! My Islam states that anyone who professes that there is no God But God(ALLAH) and that Mohammed is the Servant and Messenger of ALLAH, that person automatically becomes a muslim, irrespective of whether he or she works according to the teachings of the religion or not.
"Al-Manafiq" is an Arabic word that means "hypocrite', one who pretends to be a "believer". Those kind of people "Al-Manafiq" are to be ostracized, according to the Qur'an, for they are worse than the "Al-Kafir" (Infidel), and the "Al-Fajir" (sinner).
You confuse me when you talk like this. First you correctly explain what a “Manafiq” means and then you equate it to non hausa/Fulani Muslims. Do you mean that Muslim Southerners are hypocrites? You do know the meaning of the word do not you? Of course you do!
I would feel very offended, if I were I non hausa/Fulani Muslim person, and you called me a hypocrite (PRETENDER) in my religion. Can you see where that logic goes to? Why should someone be a pretender in faith? Its either you have it or you don’t! that is what the Qur’anic verse is saying - A PRETENDER IN FAITH IS WORSE THAN AN UNBELIEVER!
You should apologise to all non hausa/fulani Nigerians who are muslims for this uncharitable statement.
The Prophet Mohammed said in one of his hadiths that if a muslim calls another muslim a Kafir (unbeliever), it automatically confers hell fire for one of them.
“When you liberalize Islam, you're "Al-Manafiqi", and NOT a true believer, according to Saudi Arabia. “
Thank goodness you did not say according to the Qur’an or Hadith! By the way what do you mean by “liberalize Islam”? do you mean that not having an extremist view of Islam makes me a “Munafiq”? When did Saudi Arabia become the Qur’an? Am beginning to think you are from Afghanistan! (just joking!)
“It's this strict Wahhabist doctrine that ostracizes the "Al-Hammadiyat sect" from the real Muslim world.”
You seem to have formed your opinion about Islam and muslims from your limited interaction with Muslims with extreme views. The “Wahhabist” and "Al-Hammadiyat” are sects in islam.
But as long as they believe in the oneness of ALLAH and the Prophethood of Mohammed they are Muslims!
The issue of not being allowed to perform the Hajj is a case that I am hearing for the first time! Except for security reasons, no muslim can stop another muslim from performing the Hajj.
By the way were/are you a victim of such action? If so we can pick up the matter with the Saudi Authorities and seek redress!
Would it be fair if I used extremist views in Christiandom to judge Christianity. That would be irresponsible of me.
You talk about marriage between muslims and non muslims. I am a product of that concept so I am best suited to tell you that it is permissible in Islam.
The marriage of a muslim man and a Christian or jewish woman is acceptable in islam (am sure you know that!). what you are talking about is the marriage between a Muslim woman and a Christian or jewish man! If the Qur’an states that the closest to us (muslims) in faith are those who call themselves christians, then what stops a christian from marrying a muslim and vice versa. It is not everything in religion that is black and white, there are a lot of grey areas.
my dear afis, I do not blame you for your perception of Islam from the actions of misguided muslims. I do feel sad and angry at what damage these actions are having on my religion. I implore you to as you rightly put it, to pick up and “dust” your Qur’an and do like Allah (SWA) commanded the Prophet to do more than 1430 years ago- TO READ!, READ!!, READ!!!
IT IS ONLY THROUGH KNOWLEDGE THAT WE CAN FIGHT THIS DEVIL THREATENING TO DESTROY US ALL
PS:
THERE IS NOTHING LIKE A “Jihad Doctrine” IN ISLAM.
People do all sorts of evil and try to rationalize it under the banner of religion.HAMZA
From: afis <odide...@yahoo.com>
To: TalkN...@yahoogroups.com; val...@md.metrocast.net; femi Olajide <olajid...@yahoo.com>; naijap...@yahoogroups.com; Odua <omo...@yahoogroups.com>; Wharf Snake <wharf...@yahoo.com>; odide...@yahoo.com
Cc: hami...@yahoo.com; Pius Adesanmi <piusad...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, January 5, 2010 3:05:47 PM
Subject: To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Jews & Xtians, What The Quran says
The above words spoken by Allah and His prophet Muhammed, are the cornerstones of most Islamic teachings, and how to view and treat the non-believers such as Jews and Christians, including the deluded Igbo-Jews.These are iron-clad facts that could be found in the Holy Qur'an and Mohammed's Hadiths.The two quotes above are what the Wahabists rely on for their core beliefs. And Wahabism is the officially sanctioned version of Islam practice in Saudi Arabia to the present time. And Saudi Arabia happens to own and found Islam.Would our Hausa and Fulani Muslims now claim they know Islam more than Saudi Arabia?Mallam Hamza and people like Mallam Wane, if they read the Qur'an and the Eadith, then they understand where Afis is coming from.But it's easier to fool the Southerners in Nigeria because most Southerners are ignorants on Islamic teachings. Even some Southerners will ask where AIs gets his name. That's how divergency often creates confusion.Even those Yoruba who claim they are staunch Muslims are really NOT. Most of them are liberalistic in their way of worship, which is called "Manafiqi" in Islam. It's different from being an infidel which is "kafir", but a "Manafiqi" can hardly be accepted in heavens, according to the Qur'an."Al-Manafiq" is an Arabic word that means "hypocrite', one who pretends to be a "believer".Those kind of people "Al-Manafiq" are to be ostracized, according to the Qur'an, for they are worse than the "Al-Kafir" (Infidel), and the "Al-Fajir" (sinner). When you liberalize Islam, you're "Al-Manafiqi", and NOT a true believer, according to Saudi Arabia. It's this strict Wahhabist doctrine that ostracizes the "Al-Hammadiyat sect" from the real Muslim world.Most of the time the sect members are not allowed into Mecca during the Hajj, because they are seen as "Al-Manafiqi" who had committed "Bidah" by amending some of the Quranic teachings.Let us now relate "Al-Manafiq" and "Kafir" To Our Nigeria: The Islamic North always sees and calls the Muslims in the S-West "Al-Manafiq" or outrightly "al-Kafir". And the Islamic-North calls the South-East and the South-South including the Middle-belt except Kwara-North "al-Kafir".Now the clincher: If Allah says Jews and Christians are bad and the believers "Al-muminin" should not take them as Friends, and if most of the S-West, and all of the Middle-belt, the Kwara-South, South-South and South-East are Christians (including deluded Igbo-Jews), could Mallam Hamza tells us how a true believer could overcome this Qur'anic pronouncement?How then could there be unity in Nigeria, as been propagated by Dr Kassim?Mind you, words from the Qur'an are un-amendable according to the orders of Abdul Al-Wahhab, the 18th century founder of Wahhabism. According to Al-Wahhab, any change or amendment to any part of the Qur'an, or innovations or loose interpretations (Bidah) are forbidden.So, how do you have a unified nation if the Northern Muslims are forbidden to be (true) Friends with the Southerners? A religion that adheres to the belief that killing of Christians and Jews is justified thru the Jihad Doctrine?Shikena.afis
From: Wharf Snake <wharf...@yahoo.com>To: TalkN...@yahoogroups.com, val...@md.metrocast.net, "femi Olajide" <olajid...@yahoo.com>, naijap...@yahoogroups.com, "Odua" <omo...@yahoogroups.com>, odide...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [TalkNigeria] To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Marriage & Acceptable Govt In A Nation
Cc: hami...@yahoo.com, "Pius Adesanmi" <piusad...@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 10:04 PMWho is HAMZA? That name is not familiar to the lowly creature of the Wild. When did Hamza join this forum? Is it possible that Dr. Yahaya Hamis is now doubling up as HAMZA? Hmn... Inquiring minds will wanna know, o jare!
Agwo emeghi nke o jiri buru agwo,umuaka achiri ya hie nku
Wharf Aiseokhuoba SnakeIdi-oro, Lagos.
From: afis <odide...@yahoo.com>
To: val...@md.metrocast.net; femi Olajide <olajid...@yahoo.com>; TalkN...@yahoogroups.com; naijap...@yahoogroups.com; Odua <omo...@yahoogroups.com>; odide...@yahoo.com
Cc: hami...@yahoo.com; Pius Adesanmi <piusad...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, January 4, 2010 9:27:20 PM
Subject: [TalkNigeria] To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Marriage & Acceptable Govt In A Nation
please in the name of all that is good, the above quotation is not
islamic tradition! please! THIS IS EXACTLY THE MINDSET THAT HAS MADE
RELIGION IN NIGERIA A CURSE RATHER THAN A BLESSING your use of the
word "infidel" is a wicked translation meant to cause disaffection
between nigerians ("...ie. other Nigerians even the Yoruba Muslims )
"...These two pricinples of Faith are iron-clad" please where did
you get this ! it is good that you are venting your anger and
frustrations out, believe me i am angry too at my fellow muslims, but
we should be looking for ways to change things E GO BETTER!" By HAMZA.My comment: Mallam Hamza, who's angry? Me? Well, you got it very wrong. Stating facts could not involve anger, in my own way of life.Islam is a very disciplined religion if followed diligently, but very controlling and takes lots of the worshippers' time. Anyway, let us get to the nitty-gritty:Mallam Hamza, if you say that a woman born into an Islamic household is permitted by the Quran to marry a Christian, while the Christian remains a Christian, then I say to your face that you're lying.A Muslim cannot marry another person from any other religion EXCEPT if the non-believer who is also known as an INFIDEL, agrees to become a Muslim.I am not going to waste my valuable time on Mallam Hamza.If he's a true Muslim, and if he actually understands the teachings of Muhammed and the his Hadith and Holy Quran, then he would have known that what I stated are facts.The "honor killing" is NOT in the Quran, that's killing daughters for marrying someone not acceptable to the parents or an infidel.I may be wrong, but in my last knowledge of the Quran, that was not part of the Islamic teachings, but an EXTENSION from the old traditions of the Arab-Persian- Asiatic peoples.But it became well suited for the Jihadists, to "kill" a relative who marries an infidel. It's now an accepted part of Islam by most of the Arabs, Pakistan and the rest. Most of the Islamic nations in Asia and Arab world would not prosecute for "Honor Killing".Just as Dr Ojo stated, Mallam Hamza, why don't you educate us on what the Hadith says on marriage between a non-believer and a Muslim? And then we will go to the next one about acceptable Government or Leadership in a nation, acoording to Islam.I may even dust up my Quran and do some digging up of facts. How about you telling us what the Quran and Hadith say on the subject of inter-marriage between religions?Please, I am clear headed, not angry and ready to roll.Shikena.afis--- On Mon, 1/4/10, femi Olajide <olajide.femi@ yahoo.com> wrote:Subject: Re: [Naijanet] RE: TO PROFESSOR PIUS ADESANMI: Why Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
To: val...@md.metrocast .net, NIgerianWorldForum@ yahoogroups. comCc: hamingra@yahoo. com, "Odidere Afis" <odidere2001@ yahoo.com>, "Pius Adesanmi" <piusadesanmi@ yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 8:43 PMSeconded.-Femi Olajide.
From: Dr. Valentine Ojo <val...@md.metrocast .net>
To: NIgerianWorldForum@ yahoogroups. com
Cc: hamingra@yahoo. com; Odidere Afis <odidere2001@ yahoo.com>; Pius Adesanmi <piusadesanmi@ yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, 5 January, 2010 1:39:15
Subject: [Naijanet] RE: TO PROFESSOR PIUS ADESANMI: Why Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
Dear Hamza Aliyu:
You have always struck me as a very intelligent and moderate human
being, the kind of person that makes one still believe that Nigeria
can still be salvaged - maybe.
Please do me a favor.
Do not stop at merely objecting that Afis Odidere could be wrong
because what he described - according to you - "is not islamic
tradition! please! THIS IS EXACTLY THE MINDSET THAT HAS MADE RELIGION
IN NIGERIA A CURSE RATHER THAN A BLESSING!"
Please go a step further, and try to educate us all as to what Islam
is truly about, and try to counter the MAJOR DAMAGES that
Islamic/Hausa- Fulani FUNDAMENTALISTS and MAITATSINE DISCIPLES like
Malam Wane (Salihu Mustafa) and Samirah Faruk (and the poor misguided
boy, Faruk Mutallab, who wanted to kill and die for a religion he
obviously did not understand) have done on these forums, giving Islam
and the Hausa-Fulani a rather bad reputation among Southerners.
It may help to again restore some trust in the political experiment
called Nigeria.
Thanks!
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MD
On Mon 01/04/10 7:41 AM , hamza aliyu hamingra@yahoo. com sent:
"There are two anti-Islam that could put blemish on a true
muslim and put the believer in line for a throne in hell, according
the Hadith and the Quran: 1. To accept the leadership of an
infidel, ie. other Nigerians even the Yoruba Muslims. 2. To marry
or to allow your child to marry an infidel, however with a proviso: A
believer and the faithful may elect to marry or permit his child to
marry a non-believer and an infidel, as long as the infidel accepts
Islam. These two pricinples of Faith are iron-clad." dear afis,
please in the name of all that is good, the above quotation is not
islamic tradition! please! THIS IS EXACTLY THE MINDSET THAT HAS MADE
RELIGION IN NIGERIA A CURSE RATHER THAN A BLESSING your use of the
word "infidel" is a wicked translation meant to cause disaffection
between nigerians ("...ie. other Nigerians even the Yoruba Muslims )
"...These two pricinples of Faith are iron-clad" please where did
you get this ! it is good that you are venting your anger and
frustrations out, believe me i am angry too at my fellow muslims, but
we should be looking for ways to change things E GO BETTER! HAMZA
------------ --------- ----
FROM: Dr. Valentine Ojo
TO: NigerianWorldForum
CC: agwu22@yahoo. com; Odidere Afis ; Pius Adesanmi
SENT: Mon, January 4, 2010 3:23:23 AM
SUBJECT: [Naijaintellects] RE: TO PROFESSOR PIUS ADESANMI: Why Would
Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba
Language?
"Dr. Ojo was sending him articles to publish in her little yeye
magazine." - "Chukwuma S. Agwunobi" agwu22@yahoo. com [1]
Ogbuefi Mazi Chukwuma Agwunobi:
Me? What the hell are you talking about?
You lie bad!
Whom did I send what article to publish in which magzine?
That's a fabrication of your fertile Onitsha Market literature
brains.
Okoro Ajokuta Mamomi! Olodo!
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MD
On Sun 01/03/10 9:06 PM , "Chukwuma S. Agwunobi" agwu22@yahoo. com
sent:
Professor Pius Adesanmi:
How Bodi? Happy New Year my honorable Professor. Just few comments
to you. I want you to stay out of Nwabiago Afis Roforofo with anybody.
Be the person, Hausa, Ijaw, Igbo, Ngbati, Urohobo or even a murderer
because he have no core principle on what he argues on. He argues on
anything and everything fooling himself to be arguing for the Ngbatis.
He is a compound debtor and Ashawo. This is why I said this
Nwabiago Afis is Ghanian Naturalized Nigerian citizen of Abeokuta .
He is the same guy who abused me all over the place for telling him
not to insult an elderly Ngbati man Dr. Ojo. But look at him feigning
anger that a Yoruba lady is abusing Dr. Ojo. Doesn’t he look like a
fool to say so? It is like undressing your wife in public and when
people started shouting and laughing for seeing her Guitar and Onyo
(Breast) you got angry.
Nwabiago Afis keep fighting and insulting every Ngbati elders here
and when the heat is on him, he will run to the same people that he is
been insulting. How shameful it is that the same man who Dr. Ojo all
kind of names turn around to side with him? What kind of bloody Ngbati
patriotism is that?
You saw him behaving like a Jackass when many of the Omo Ekos were
attacking Yemi Oke because of Adejuwan. He went after Yemi Oke without
knowing what was going on just because it is ppopular to bash Yemi
Oke. If by tomorrow, the pendulum swing back and the Omo Ekos start
attacking Adejuwan because of Yemi Oke, Nwabiago Afis will come out to
claim that he is OWU like Yemi Oke and he will die right now because
him.
This is the behavior of a man without principle. It is a behavior of
a debtor who wants people to orgive him for his gbese and an Ashawo
because he wants more money. He is the most unreliable Ngbati chap
here. I was his buddy when I was fighting the Ngbatis because of OBJ.
Professor Pius Adesanmi:
Things I stated above is part of many reasons why people view the
Ngbatis as tribalist, unreliable and back stabbers. You will abandon
your friends at the slightest thing to be by the side of an Ngbati
person even if that Ngbati person wanted to kill you and you were said
by non Ngbati.
You will never see any Igbo person on this forum take side with
Osu-Ji if he is fighting an Hausa, Edo , Ngbati or Ijaw person no
matter how Igbo Osu-Ji is. An Igbo man on this forum will be the last
person to take side with him if he is fighting DJ Dipo, Professor Suyi
or Akin to name but few. I will even lend more help to crush him. But
you as Ngbati man will turn against me if I am fighting KUNLE,
regardless whether Kunle wanted to kill you and I save you just
because Kunle is Ngbati person.
That is where you the Ngbatis extend this tribalism to other people.
That is where people wanted do like you . Ngbati Bolekaja Aluko was
sued by Ugwuonye, while almost 90% Igbos came against Ugwuonye, 95% of
the Ngbatis supported Ngbati Bolekaja Aluko. They were abusing
Ugwuonye. But Igbos didn’t change.
I came out to fight a Cameroon girl because she was abusing MATOTO
and his wife and Dr. Ojo. This Cameroon girl went and called my job.
Guess what, it was Ngbati people Bolekaja, Tinu Awe and Banji was
telling her to tell my job that I was calling her house and sexually
harassing her.
Akin was the only Yoruba guy that came out openly to defend me. All
others were happy and laughing. Some of the Ngbatis were writing on
this forum that this will teach Chukwuma a lesson. Many Igbos were
real angry but they kept their cool because of Akin.
A week after the girl called my job, MATOTO was hosting the same
girl to his house. Dr. Ojo was sending him articles to publish in her
little yeye magazine. Ngbati Bolekaja Aluko was angry at her for not
acting according to the scripts he gave to her on how to get me to be
driving Taxi. Only Tinu Awe wrote me privately to apologize.
Professor Pius Adesanmi:
I have been reading the nonsense response this Nwabiago Afis have
been writing as response to Aboki Gworo Mustafa.
If they give one Aboki Mustafa to million Nwabiago Afis, please take
one Aboki Mustafa without looking back. Run from millions of Nwabiago
Afis. He is the most unreliable guy of all the Ngbatis on this forum.
He is now telling us that the Northerners regard Southerners as
stranger in the North. But he is the Ngbati guy running his mouth that
Igbos should leave Lagos that was developed with Nigeria oil money
taxes. On his way to Jericho , he saw the evil in the Hausa/Fulani
oligarchy.
I didn’t anywhere the Ngbatis condemned the killing and
destruction of young Igbo traders properties in Lagos during June
12th. Ngbati Bolekaja Aluko was telling Igbos that if they feel
maltreated they should go home. I never read any Ngbati person
condemning the killing of Igbos in the North since 1970 rather the
same Nwabiago Afis was using it to ridicule Igbos.
Ngbati Bolekaja Aluko was even issuing threat to Igbos on behalf of
the Northerners that if Igbo dare touch any Northerners in the East
for the killing of their people, that the Northerners will kill more
Igbos and if possible, other Nigerians will help them to kill Igbos
because the way Igbos go about acquiring properties and wealth is too
much.
Simple put, Ngbati Bolekaja Aluko hate Igbo people because of hard
work.
Please don’t align yourself with Nwabiago Afis. Aboki Mustafa is
more reliable, trustworthy and dependable than this trash called
Nwabiago Afis. I bet you my last kobo, that if you are with Nwabiago
and got into trouble, he will run or give witness against you. He will
even should in oyibo on you that _“YOU WAN PUT ME FOR WAHALA”_.
Aboki Mustafa will not do that. Nwabiago Afis is a Ghanaian of
Ashanti, Kumasi . Don’t rubbish yourself with him.
And with this, I rest my case.
PS:
The Ngbatis are shouting and condemning the 23 Years Hausa Boy as
Terrorist for attempting to blow up the Airplane. Wasn’t the Ngbatis
that started it first? They hijacked Nigeria Civilian Airplane 35,000
feet above the sea lea level. They didn’t condemn that act. Which
one is more grievous?
Chukwuma "Vicious Animal" Agwunobi Seattle, Washington U. S. A
--- On SUN, 1/3/10, AFIS _YAHOO.COM>_ wrote:
From: afis yahoo.com>
Subject: [TalkNigeria] Re: [OmoOdua] Why Would Yoruba Women Join a
Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
To: TalkNigeria@ yahoogroups. com, naijapolitics@ yahoogroups. com,
"Odua" .com>, OmoOdua@yahoogroups .com, val...@md.metrocast .net,
"Pius Adesanmi" yahoo.com>, odidere2001@ yahoo.com
Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 2:54 PM
"The same unrepentant and foolish bigot, Samira Farouk, imagining
that no one understands Hausa in cyberspace, has subsequently gone
around using slurs like "bairebe" (berebe) everywhere. I suppose her
Yoruba "sisters" don't know what "bairebe" means since they have
continued to shout alleluia everytime this bigot posts something in
order to appear pan-Nigerian. It is a silly conception of pan-Nigerian
nationalism that says you should overlook deliberate and unprovoked
insults heaped on your language, culture, and heritage. I don't even
know which is more annoying - Samira Farouk's unrelenting and
unprovoked rain of racist insults or overzealous Yoruba peacemakers
overlooking all of that to show exagerated instincts of pacifism. It
is in little things like this that you begin to understand the reasons
for our subservience to Caliphal domination. Like I said: let Samira
Farouk jump up, unprovoked, and write that the Igbo language is "not
sweet to read or hear"." By Dr Adesanmi. My comment: Samira
Farouk knows what she's doing, it's our own people that does not
understand what the Hausa-Fulani is all about. I have urged many
Yoruba guys to not read my postings if they are so incensed about what
I write, don't open it. Unlike many Cyber-guys here that always want
me to know they do not read mine, what about the other way around?
There are many guys here that I find very boring, and some just plain
"odenson" writers, and I don't bother to open theirs. Now to
Samira Farouk and the Cyber-Gambari guys, I did not see Samira
Farouk's initial insults, maybe because I'm not registered with many
Cberplaces. I'm only on three spaces, but I know the Hausa people and
their bigotry. I had lived in the North where my relatives were
Judges and magistrates, and I got to know what Alkali courts were all
about. How they use Alkali courts to oppress "foreigners" like Afis.
Oh yes, an Afis is a "foreigner" in any parts of the Hausa-Fulani
territories. Did Dr Ola Kassim know that we Southerners are
considered "foreigners" in Sokoto, Zamfara, etc? Is he aware that
"Sabon Gari" was created for Nigerians who are considered "foreigners"
in Nigerian territory that happened to be situated in Hausaland?
People like Dr Kassim means well, but he has no knowledge of what he's
preaching on. He propagates Naija unity while he understands little
or nothing about the Nigerian tribes that he wants to unify, and of
all places on the internet. The problem with the Dr Kassims of
Yorubaland is that out there somewhere in laalaa land, there are some
intellectuals that actually believe in what his kind are propagating.
These set of people should go live in the North and mingle among the
real Hausa-Fulani people and witness their acts of barbarism against
other Nigerians, and then come back and tell us about UNITY. And IF
Dr Kassim had ever lived in the North and still believe as he does,
then brother Pius, he has learned nothing.
Shikena. afis
--- On SUN, 1/3/10, PIUS ADESANMI wrote:
From: Pius Adesanmi
Subject: Re: [OmoOdua] Why Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to
INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
To: "afis" , TalkNigeria@ yahoogroups. com, naijapolitics@
yahoogroups. com, "Odua" , OmoOdua@yahoogroups .com,
nigerianworldforum@ yahoogroups. com, val...@md.metrocast .net,
nidoa@yahoogroups. com
Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 8:47 AM
Alagba Afis: This is a stubborn thread. Maybe you will have
greater success in refocusing this aspect of things that I have been
trying to address. Beyond the irritating distraction of Tosin Mustapha
trying to drag me into her spat with Dr Ojo by making funny and
erroneous attributions to me in order to create the impression of a
gang up on her, what you stated here has been my subject. The moment I
encountered Samira Farouk's stupid comments - she has turned out to be
even more stupid than I initially thought - I knew where it was coming
from: the supremacist mindset, rooted deep down in the psyche, that
you have analyzed here. I knew the temptation would be there to reduce
such serious issues to pedestrian comments about inter-personal
relationships across geographies and ethnicity - as if anyone had a
monopoly of that. My parents got married in Katsina, lived in Kaduna,
studied in Zaria; my entire extended family is based in Sokoto, Kano,
and Kaduna - three family generations and counting - with loads of
inter-ethnic marriages along the way that I need not go into. I come
from that kind of background and somebody is coming out here to teach
me how not to discriminate against Hausa-Fulani because her sibling is
married to a northern military officer. Like you said: is that the
issue? Se nkan ta nso niyen? Who doesn't have such personal
narratives? We are talking about a mindset, a collective manner of
psychologically producing non-Hausa/Fulani - otherness especially
among the elite and within the oligarchy - with which one is truly
familiar. Samira Farouk's stupid statement about the Yoruba language
was coming from that supremacist fount - never mind that she was
incompetently trying to hide it in the mix of the fireworks between Dr
Ojo and Tosin Mustapha and I wasn't prepared to let her get away with
it. If she could railroad two Yoruba women into subscribing to her
insult, minimising and rationalising it, must the railroading work
with everyone? The same unrepentant and foolish bigot, Samira Farouk,
imagining that no one understands Hausa in cyberspace, has
subsequently gone around using slurs like "bairebe" (berebe)
everywhere. I suppose her Yoruba "sisters" don't know what "bairebe"
means since they have continued to shout alleluia everytime this bigot
posts something in order to appear pan-Nigerian. It is a silly
conception of pan-Nigerian nationalism that says you should overlook
deliberate and unprovoked insults heaped on your language, culture,
and heritage. I don't even know which is more annoying - Samira
Farouk's unrelenting and unprovoked rain of racist insults or
overzealous Yoruba peacemakers overlooking all of that to show
exagerated instincts of pacifism. It is in little things like this
that you begin to understand the reasons for our subservience to
Caliphal domination. Like I said: let Samira Farouk jump up,
unprovoked, and write that the Igbo language is "not sweet to read or
hear". One thing won't happen: Igbo men won't run to the market place
pretending to be uninsulted peacemakers and demonstrating exagerated
indignation at the ensuing fireworks. Want to be a pan-Nigerian
nationalist? Begin by being a ferocious defender of who you are. Show
ability to feel racial and cultural injury. I once had occasion to
call Oga Joe Igietseme up on this when he was going to let being
called an Edo "native" pass in the name of this pan-Nigerianism. This
snorty Samira Farouk must feel so good that it is Yoruba people - most
of whom haven't demonstrated sufficient understanding of the
psychology that has produced her insults - who have largely let her
get away with this. Pius
============ ========= ========= ========= ========= =========
========= ==== "We have watched as politicians accused of corruption
have invoked and conscripted the primordial appeal of ethno-regional
empathy, running under canopies erected for them by the he-may-be-a-
thief-but- he-is-our- thief crowd. The proclamation of ethnic
ownership over corruption has corroded every effort to confront our
corruption problem." - Moses Ochonu
--- On SUN, 3/1/10, AFIS wrote:
From: afis
Subject: [OmoOdua] Why Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to
INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
To: "afis" , TalkNigeria@ yahoogroups. com, naijapolitics@
yahoogroups. com, "Odua"
Date: Sunday, 3 January, 2010, 12:03
I hope both parties would let it die a natural death. And I want
to say it upfront, we should encourage women of all tribes to join all
Cyber-Congresses, and we all should encourage them to have thir say.
I do believe that by asking each other questions and responses thereof
would bring out the facts and Truth, rather than "raw roforofo". We
as Yoruba must stop undermining each other on tribal issues. Those who
do not like Yoruba to "battle" other tribes could just take a chill
pill and keep their silence. I have relatives married to Hausa,
Edo, Igbo and others. A brother of mine an officer in the army,
married his darling wife during the uncivil war, so what? Do I hate
my sister in-law? Of course not. What is personal and private life had
to do with sharing National cake? We (my relatives) meet everywhere,
globally. I just had some "invite" to a relative son's wedding in
London, coming up shortly. The father is Igbo, they had been married
longer than Afis. But I don't bring that to bear on Naija issues. My
in-law called me personally, he dared not send me invitation card
first, that would be out of Yoruba norms. A relative's good
demeanors have no relevance to a people's mindset. When I discuss
Naija issues with these in-laws of different tribal backgrounds, it's
not their kiss-up I watch, it is their body languages. I have yet to
meet an Igbo who did not feel betrayed by the Yoruba's political and
war strategies during the uncivil war. I have yet to meet Hausa and
a Fulani who don't believe that the Southerners are infidels,
according to the Quranic teachings. The Fulani especially, are
stricter adherents to the Islamic scriptures more differently than any
other set of tribes in Nigeria including Hausa by percentage-wise .
I lived more than 15yrs in the North, and I grew up to understand the
Hausa-Fulani mindset. Anyone, and I repeat, any Nigerian that
believes the Hausa-Fulani oligarchy, (not one Fulani that married my
cousin, but a MINDSET), that the cabals love other Nigerians and would
want all tribes to rule Nigeria, and would love nothing more than
holding the hands of fellow Nigerians so that love would ooze and flow
ad infinitum, such person is living a life of delusion. Personally,
there is nothing dissimilar between one Fulani and another member of
any tribe in Nigeria, except level of fanaticism. As there are
thieves among Yoruba, so you have thieves in the Fulfulde tribe. As
you have intelligent people in the Yoruba so you have in Fulani.
Their men are as abusive toward women just as some men in the Igbo or
Yoruba, if not refined. Nothing sets a Fulani and Hausa apart from
any other except their collective mindset which is well spelt out on
the Sokoto's official license plate which says "Born To Rule". This
"Born To Rule" mentality comes from their belief, and I repeat, their
RELIGIOUS belief. I studied Arabic in Hausa country in my younger
days, and something called Religious Knowledge in school. So I am
well rounded in the Islamic teachings. There are two anti-Islam
that could put blemish on a true muslim and put the believer in line
for a throne in hell, according the Hadith and the Quran: 1. To
accept the leadership of an infidel, ie. other Nigerians even the
Yoruba Muslims. 2. To marry or to allow your child to marry an
infidel, however with a proviso: A believer and the faithful may
elect to marry or permit his child to marry a non-believer and an
infidel, as long as the infidel accepts Islam. These two pricinples
of Faith are iron-clad. With all due respect to those who come on
these Cyberspaces and discuss personal experiences and relationship
with the Northern folks, if you are a Yoruba, you're doing a great
disservice to your Odua people. We all or most of us have personal
relationships with the Hausa-Fulani guys and ladies, and personally
they are great folks just as any Igbo, Yoruba, Ibibio, Ijaw, Edo and
others. But that is not the issue. Please let us understand
issues. Afis has nothing against a man called Fulani, Afis has nothing
against a woman called Igbo, it is their mindsets against Yoruba, and
tribal hatred built up in the collective psyche that we are up in arms
against. If any Yoruba feel offended, you do have the right to NOT
open offensive postings, but if you open Afis postins, your rights to
condemn Afis should be confined due to the State of the Nation called
Nigeria - that if those rights are used without restraints, will go
beyond Afis personally and may eventually alienate you from your
cyber-Yoruba. It has far reaching consequences that declare your
people unfocussed and radiates wrong signals to the opposing tribes.
A war is looming in Nigeria, those who fail to recognize this fact
would have themselves to blame when finally, the "shit shall hit the
fan". Ponder this: Those Yoruba who condemn other Yoruba, in the
latest Cyber-melee, for "overeaching" against their beloveth other
tribes, did they equally condemn the other side that actually started
all these bad blood? Did they condemn Salihu Mustafa and his super
ego, Mallam Wane, I mean as vehemently as they show disdain for their
own Yoruba? Like Brother Yemi Oke says "dedemerawo ooo".
Shikena. afis
--- On SUN, 1/3/10, AFIS wrote:
From: afis
Subject: Fwd: Re: [OmoOdua] Fw: [NIDOA] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum ]
RE: Why Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and
Yoruba Language?
To: odidere2001@ yahoo.com
Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 5:32 AM
--- In OmoOdua@yahoogroups .com [2], tosin ajayi wrote:
Everyone, Happy New Year. Please, let's call a truce as OJ
suggested,
this is a public forum and the whole world has access to these
write-ups.
'TOSIN AJAYI
AMOUREM PRODUCTIONS
5, ADELABU CLOSE
IKEJA. LAGOS
08023012848/ 08033028783
"My God is able to do exceedingly, far above what you may ask or
think..."
____________ _________ _________ __
From: O. J. LAWAL ojlawal24@.. .
To: omoodua@yahoogroups .com [3]; yinkaodumakin@ ...
Cc: nidoa@yahoogroups. com [4]
Sent: Sun, January 3, 2010 1:47:58 AM
Subject: RE: [OmoOdua] Fw: [NIDOA] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum ] RE: Why
Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and
Yoruba
Language?
Dear forumites, brothers Yinka, Valentine Ojo, Pius Adesanmi and
sister
Tosin Mustapha:
As a devoted reader of the issues discussed in details in this
forum, it
really sadened me to see you all these good individuals with diverse
opinion on many matters reducing your discuss to personal attacks. I
am
humbly seeking from you a truce for the next two weeks to look for a
better ways and a neutral setting to bring this personal attack top
an
end. Please note that this type of discussion is not only reflecting
on
you alone as the leader of the community but also telling on those
who
hold you in high esteem.
Thanks for honoring this request. Happy New Year to each and
everyone .
With Esteem Regards,
OJ Lawal Esq.
____________ _________ _________ __
To: yinkaodumakin@ yahoo.com
CC: OmoOdua@yahoogroups .com; nidoa@yahoogroups. com
From: tosinmustapha40@ yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2010 12:27:42 -0800
Subject: Re: [OmoOdua] Fw: [NIDOA] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum ] RE: Why
Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and
Yoruba
Language?
Yinka,
Happy New Year to you too. Thank you for your kind words. That
Valentine
Ojo is just suffering from mental sickness. Someone who studied
Yoruba
for his Ph.D and claims to beifa priest is still bearing the name
Valentine
.Tosin
____________ _________ _________ __
From: yinka odumakin
To: OmoOdua@yahoogroups .com
Cc: nidoa@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 1:07:03 AM
Subject: Re: [OmoOdua] Fw: [NIDOA] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum ] RE: Why
Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and
Yoruba
Language?
Tosin,
Happy New Year to you specially.I was at your Mum's birthday and met
all
your great folks.I sat in the midst of a High court Judge and a
Chief
Magistrate who became my friends.
I metaphorically hold their hands and we appeal to you:enough of
this
thread.We should be planning what to do in the New Year now.
Anybody that finds my trouble now will not meet me at home except if
it
is Malam Wane(lol)
Take care my sister!
Yinka.
"God forbid that a nation be led by a pack of greedy dogs who never
say
enough"-Tunde Bakare
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Tosin Mustapha
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 16:53:31 -0800 (PST)
To: OmoOdua@yahoogroups .com>
Cc: nidoa@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: [OmoOdua] Fw: [NIDOA] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum ] RE: Why
Would
Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba
Language?
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Tosin Mustapha
To: valojo@... ..net
Cc: piusadesanmi@ yahoo.com
Sent: Fri, January 1, 2010 4:34:14 PM
Subject: Re: [NIDOA] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum ] RE: Why Would Yoruba
Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
Valentine Ojo,
Obviously you don`t know my well respected family. I attended
Queens
College Yaba Lagos from primary five with all the laurels and awards
as
best student from my public school primary school-Our Lady of
Lourdes.Go
and research my great honorable dad, Alhaji Chief Yekeen Ajadi
Mustapha
who is now resting with almighty God. He was blessed and my sweet
mother
is still living in his mansion with a mosque on Salawu Street in
Surulere and she occasionally vacations in New York and London to
be
with us her children and grandchildren. Go on my facebook and see my
sweet mother`s 75th birthday party that I invited some great
forumites
to in Lagos summer 2009. All my late father`s sixteen children are
well
educated, professionals with science degrees, and accomplished. I
wrote
articles on my dad to show the world how wonderful he was unlike you
with no one to write about because you are a born bastard and your
wife
is a notorious whore and your mother an anfani
adugbo animashaun and a witch.You are obviously from a wretched,
miserable and uneducated family so you are very bitter and I can
understand where you are coming from.Your picture itself shows
poverty
well written on your face and body. Omo ale oponu to nfi owo osi
juwe
ile baba e.
Tosin
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dr. Valentine Ojo valojo@... .net>
To: Tosin Mustapha
Cc: piusadesanmi@ yahoo.com
Sent: Fri, January 1, 2010 4:12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [NIDOA] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum ] RE: Why Would Yoruba
Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
But you are a BASTARD - and your father drove your mother out, abi
na
lie?
And as of today, you have no husband - you are a 'single mother',
abi?
Because no man wants to live with a BITCH like you...no be so?
A Yoruba woman who prostitutes herself to White Trash and
Hausa-Fulani
Cattle Herders to collect crumbs....after the Motto: 'Using What She
Has
To Get What She Wants" = 'Owo L'Owo, Ehin N'ile!", which spells: A S
E W
O in Yoruba!
Abi?
Following in the footsteps of your mother: Owu ti iya gbin ni omo yi
o
hun!
On Fri 01/01/10 6:27 PM , Tosin Mustapha tosinmustapha40@ yahoo.com
sent:
>Omowe Pius Adesanmi,
> Mo ki yin kun odun.
>Pataki oro mi ni wipe Valentine Ojo kin se eniyan rara. Eranko
jatijati
ati omo ale ni. Emi o si ni inu abosi. Ati mo iwe ju ka ma bu ara wa
lo
sugbon eniyan buruku ni Valentine Ojo. This is not about Yoruba
fighting
Hausa-Fulani or Hausa-Fulani fighting Yoruba versa but
>about putting a stop to stereotyping and hatred among Nigerians.
Valentine Ojo started cursing my family, muslims and Hausa-Fulani as
he
loves to curse to entertain readers. You know whatever Salihu and
Samira
wrote does not reflect the Yorubas that is the same way what
Valentine
Ojo was writing does not reflect muslims and Hausa Fulanis as an
educated man. But I will not allow any born bastard like Valentine
Ojo
to continue to insult my family and someone like you who should know
better than him will be supporting and canvassing for support for
Valentine Ojo is just too ridiculous for me to comprehend.I have
received many calls telling me to ignore him but I will just let
people
know that all the women in Valentine Ojo`s life including his mother
and
wife from generation to generation are prostitutes who gave them
bastard
children like Valentine Ojo.
>Tosin
>
>
>
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Pius Adesanmi yahoo.com>
>To: NIgerianWorldForum@ yahoogroups. com; nidoa@yahoogroups. com;
valojo@... .net
>Cc: ajokotade@hotmail. com; princessabikee@ yahoo.com
>Sent: Fri, January 1, 2010 2:42:34 PM
>Subject: [NIDOA] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum ] RE: Why Would Yoruba
Women
Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
>
>
>
>Awon Iya Afin Kemi Seriki ati Tosin Mustapha:
>
>Apologies if it is omidan. E ku dede iwoyi. You see yourselves
now? Se
e ti ri aiye ara yin nta? Whatever sisterhood you imagined you
shared
across the Niger with this jejune character, Samira Faruk, was
obviously
not enough to stop her from pouring filth on your culture, language,
and
heritage. So, how has Samira Faruk - I imagine they didn't teach
English
composition in her madrassa since she can't write a single correct
sentence - respected the two of you when she can't imagine any way
to
get at Dr Valentine Ojo that wouldnt involve throwing in your
language
and culture as collateral damage? She says your language is not
sweet to
read or hear, pours other invectives on your culture but apologises
that
you share the same "tribe" with Oga Ojo. The horror! The horror!
Maybe
the two of you should educate Samira Faruk that you are of Yoruba
ethnic
nationality. She is welcome to be from the Hausa-Fulani or whatever
"tribe" that sails her boat. Judging
from her level of writing, it is unlikely that she knows the
difference
between tribe and ethnicity. So, one can temporarily forgive her
just
that one count of rabid ignorance. And I hope the two of you realize
where this woman's haughty arrogance is coming from? It is the same
silly royalist unconscious that I have been talking about lately. I
lived in the belly of the caliphate - Sokoto - so I know what I am
talking about. I am very familiar with that psychology. I am always
ready with my koboko whenever that haughty arrogance of the northern
elite rears its vegetable head in my path. It is the same haughty
arrogance you see in the regular sorties of a Salihu Mustapha in
these
forums. And if the two of you imagine that you mean more to Samira
Faruk
than two southern Yoruba infidels - up north, they don't consider u
guys
genuine muslims - that she could use like a foot mat to rubbish your
culture, I am sorry for you. If she cannot base the yeye
sisterhood she is hypocritically professing for the two of you on a
foundation of respect for your language and culture, tell her to go
to
hell. I wonder why people can't think. The greatest national
embarrassment that we have ever suffered collectively as Nigerians
has
has just come from your lungu (neck of the woods), instead of bowing
their heads in sober reflection, you have woolly-headed characters
like
Salihu Mustapha and Samira Faruk behaving here like Umar Farouk
Mutallab
has just won the Nobel Prize for their tiny cabal in the Oligarchy.
I
guess they are finding strength in the slavish discourse of servile
southerners who are mouthing watery talk about collective
responsibility. Nonsense and ingredient.
>
>Pius
>
>
>=========== = ========= ========= ========= ========= =========
========= ====
>"We have watched as politicians accused of corruption have invoked
and
conscripted the primordial appeal of ethno-regional empathy, running
under canopies erected for them by the he-may-be-a- thief-but-
he-is-our- thief crowd. The proclamation of ethnic ownership over
corruption has corroded every effort to confront our corruption
problem." - Moses Ochonu
>
>
>--- On Fri, 1/1/10, Dr. Valentine Ojo wrote:
>
>
>>From: Dr. Valentine Ojo
>>Subject: [NIgerianWorldForum ] RE: Why Would Yoruba Women Join a
Hausa
Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
>>To: "NigerianWorldForum "
> >Cc: samirahf09@gmail. com, ajokotade@hotmail. com,
princessabikee@
yahoo.com
>>Date: Friday, 1 January, 2010, 21:43
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"I am planning to launch an NGO for priviledged kids to educated
them..." - Samirah Faruk samirahf09@gmail. com>
>>You first need to go and get an education yourself - and first
learn
to speak simple, correct English!
>>And "Why Would TWO Yoruba Women (Tosin Mustapha, Kemi Seriki) Team
Up
With a Hausa Woman (Samirah Faruk) to INSULT Yoruba Men and the
Yoruba
Language?"
>>And Tosin and Kemi, here is some yeye Hausa Semi-Illiterate woman,
Samirah Faruk, leading and urging you on, INSULTING and
DISRESPECTING
your Yoruba Heritage and your Yoruba Men, while you are here coming
out
to WORSHIP their Hausa-Fulani LOOTERS:
>>"Please ignore the rantings of a YORUBA man (sorry you guys share
a
tribe together, but the fellow is disgracing you!!!) who cannot
write a
complete sentence without adding Yoruba to it as if the language
sweet
to read or hear sef !!"
>>Alaso ni o ma pe aso re ni akisa - awon aiye a de baa lo bi akisa!
>>I dare you to come out to insult Hausa men or the Hausa lanaguage!
>>Eyin Akotileta Obirin Yoruba!
>>
>>Dr. Valentine Ojo
>>Tall Timbers, MD
>>
>>
>>
>>On Fri 01/01/10 3:42 PM , Samirah Faruk samirahf09@gmail. com
sent:
>>
>>Sister Tosin and Sister Kemi,
>>>Please ignore the rantings of a YORUBA man (sorry you guys share
a
tribe together, but the fellow is disgracing you!!!) who cannot
write a
complete sentence without adding Yoruba to it as if the language
sweet
to read or hear sef!!
>>>
>>>I am planning to launch an NGO for priviledged kids to educated
them
on issues like this so please feel free to donate in cash and kind
when
the time comes!!
>>>
>>>Samirah
>>>
>>>On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 5:08 AM, Dr. Valentine Ojo valojo@...
.net>
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Tosin Mustapha:
>>>>Olodo rapata!
>>>>We are all witnessing the dividends of your Islamic home
upbringing,
all of you!
>>>>Impressive!
>>>>No wonder the Yoruba call Islam "IMOLE" - that which you are
forced
to learn with a sword pointed at your throat!
>>>>Awon jegudujera, akotileta obirin - okurin kan ko kun isasun!
Awon
omo Egbe Kini Oko Yi O Se!
>>>>Shio!
>>>>A nation and a people will become what their women folk want
them to
become.
>>>>These are the kind of women behind what Nigerian men have become
today - FAILURES, LOSERS, and TREASURY LOOTERS who produce gang
rapists
and wannabe suicide bombers as offspring!
>>>>Oju o ha ti yin bi?
>>>>
>>>>Dr. Valentine Ojo
>>>>Tall Timbers, MD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Thu 12/31/09 9:16 PM , Tosin Mustapha tosinmustapha40@
yahoo.com
sent:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Sister Kemi,
>>>>>Please, don`t reply to Ojo. Silence is the best answer for
him.You
are right in your suggestions. In fact, many young Nigerian ladies
are
organizing meetings with the local governments to be educating the
Nigerian youth on social and religious issues in Nigeria because
there
are many young Nigerians into drugs , cult and religious fanatism
in
Nigeria now.
>>>>> Tosin
>>>>>
>>>>>
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dr. Valentine Ojo .net>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>To: NIDOA@yahoogroups. . . com
>>>>>Cc: ajokotade@hotmail. com; princessabikee@ yahoo..com
>>>>>Sent: Thu, December 31, 2009 5:42:17 PM
>>>>>Subject: [NIDOA] RE: Why Would An Affluent 23yr Old Umar
FaroukAbdulMutallab Result To Terrorism?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"My suggestions would be for us all, to have a day in the
country,
were the whole country can say a silent prayer and beg God to enter
the
hearts of these young men." - Kemi Seriki ajokotade@hotmail. com>
>>>>>Kemi Seriki:
>>>>>All the prayers all you Nigerian praying mantis have been
holding
these past 40 years or more, and all the money their thieving
parents
have been looting to build private mosques and chapels in their
villas,
how much has it helped them to prevnt catastrophy and calamity from
striking?
>>>>>These thieving parents should spend more time raising their
children right - and doing less theiving!
>>>>>"We should have charities and Social groups set up, for other
Umar
Farouk AbdulMutallabs out there, so they can all tender their views
on
the whole issues, that way, it would give us an insight into the
minds
of these young men, who do not fear death, but ready to risk their
lives
and others, for mere beliefs . " - Kemi Seriki ajokotade@hotmail.
com>
>>>>>Alhaja Seriki, e re e le!
>>>>>Only ONE CHILD so far, and you are already setting up charities
and
NGO's - for children of the priviledged whose problem is not money!
>>>>>"I am so choked with emotions as I write, and I pray we find
solutions." - Kemi Seriki ajokotade@hotmail. com>
>>>>>O ma se o! Poor you!
>>>>>And how much emotion have you shown, and how much choking have
you
done for the millions of Nigerian children - majority of them in the
North - going to bed hungry tonight, in the dark, deprived of
schools,
education and a future by the parents of your Farouk Mutallabs?
>>>>>Are you also "so choked with emotions as you write, and pray we
find solutions" for these poor children with no tomorrows too?
>>>>>Or only for the Farouk Mutallabs?
>>>>>Most of you semi-educated Nigerian ILLITERATES are BLOODY
HYPOCRITES!! !
>>>>>You all make me sick!
>>>>>Another Yoruba apologist, a Muslim fundamentalist with the name
Seriki pretending to be a humanitarian!
>>>>>Give me a freaking break!
>>>>>
>>>>>Dr. Valentine Ojo
>>>>>Tall Timbers, MD
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Thu 12/31/09 4:34 PM , Kemi Seriki ajokotade@hotmail. com
sent:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What can we do to help the other Umar
Farouk’s? My
suggestions would be for us all, to have a day in the country, were
the
whole country can say a silent prayer and beg God to enter the
hearts of
these young men. We should have charities and Social groups set up,
for
other Umar Farouk AbdulMutallabs out there, so they can all tender
their
views on the whole issues, that way, it would give us an insight
into
the minds of these young men, who do not fear death, but ready to
risk
their lives and others, for mere beliefs. I am so choked with
emotions
as I write, and I pray we find solutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>______ ______ _________ _________ __
>>>>>>Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft... Get
it
now.
>>>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
____________ _________ _________ __
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
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Cornelius Hamelberg
Personally, when I think of Nigeria, I think of the ONE NIGERIA, the
many-faceted Great Nation and extensions in the equally great
offspring, the Diaspora
With regard to the problematic relations between Christianity and
Islam, the fires which have more than occasionally flared up in
various parts of Nigeria and the blood that has occasionally been
spilled where adherents of the two faiths are supposed to co-exist
as Brother and Sister Nigerians, you have hit the nail on its head :
Respect and tolerance are the watchwords and as I heard a Rabbi say,
“We have great respect for other religions.”
Your insightful words are addressed to all of us, and should be
spread: in the interest of better understanding between and among us
all when you say,
“I came to understand almost twenty years ago that it was not UNBELIEF
in
Islam or Mohammed that rankled Muslims, but lack of respect for and
outright
mockery of their faith, that they had as much right to their faith as
we
In my opinion this attitude is often undermined by many of us and I
thought about it this afternoon when I got to the concluding lines of
Chidi’s poem:
“They chant
“God is great”
And conjure imaginary virgins
To usher the misguided
Into imaginary paradise.”
Yes, God Is Great – and Muslims too understand that they are guided.
The Christian Heaven is no less real or imaginary than the Muslim
Paradise – nor is the Resurrection less real to the Jew. It is a
fundamental of Shia Belief.
An Irishman lectured me on this subject for about an hour during our
flight from Port Harcourt to London in 1984 – that no one (not even in
the imagination) has a monopoly on Paradise or thoughts of Paradise.
Faith is a reality to Jews, Muslims and from what one can observe, to
Christians too – although Jews are a little more quiet/ reticent about
the afterlife and in my own experience do not talk so much about that.
Thinking/ conceiving Paradise/ Heaven and Islam is part of the faith
of both Christianity and Islam. As the Irishman told me up in the air,
for the Hindu Heaven might also include Heavenly elephants. (Funnily
enough we started off as enemies because I had barely got my behind
down on the seat next to his when her asked me
“ Did you get your money?”
- “Which money?”
- “ Your gratuity and final Home Remittance”
- ( What business was it of his and I didn’t know him from Adam) -
“No”
- “ You’ll never get” he said
- And I thought “ Racist”
But we became friends, gradually, as his lecture proceeded.
This mockery and ridicule of the 72 Virgins is aimed at dismantling
the inner faith of the Suicide Bomber who is believed to be acting in
(that) Faith, to claim that Heavenly reward. It’s a game at which two
can play and call into question other people’s beliefs / disbelief -
on rational grounds. Public ridicule does not promote respect or
harmony, even if the intention is to discourage suicide bombing…..
This lecture was enlightening:
http://www.paideia-eu.org/index.php?link=6&sublink=3&event=176
You are a Professor of Peace and according to what you have expressed
devoid of what Bishop Krister Stendahl calls “holy envy” ( Cf. The
Wikipedia on him, about this)
http://search.conduit.com/Results.aspx?q=Krister+Stendahl
However, were you to live under Sharia Law, there’s no gainsaying that
your equal rights would be relegated to Dhimmitude. And perhaps “envy”
the some of the privileges not extended to you in a Muslim Sharia
State….
4. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what
fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion
hath
light with darkness?" (2 Cor. 6:14, KJV). (This does not say that you
should
not be yoked, just not "un-equally”).
Of course all men are equal but aren’t you are equivocating here
(although this does not translate into any State legislation) as to
who you may be equally or unequally yoked to, barring so far, any
provisions in Nigerian Christianity – or Nigerian State Legislation
for giving the Blessings of Jesus to the new Sacrament of “Gay
Marriage” as now obtains in many places in the West - and of late
some old places in Africa. Needless to say, the idea of legalising Gay
Marriage in Islam is unthinkable! That must be one of the frustrations
that the progressive and more tolerant Christians of the West, feel
about the resistance from Nigeria/ the Nigerian Church – not to
mention ISLAM which will never accept such.
Indeed , Professer Aluko, you may all be full of light,( I’ve read
hundreds of your articles) nevertheless, through the ineptitude of
those who were responsible for Brother Umar Farouk Abdalmutallab
boarding the plane in Amsterdam, our Nigeria is now ranked among the
14 Nations from among whose national/s they say that there is an
increased possibility ( and fear) of terrorist danger to the United
States of America.
This means that on your return visit from Nigeria you are likely to
find yourself standing in the queue for Christians and not in the
queue for Muslims. (This afternoon someone asked me whether there are
also going to provide queues for Monotheists of Other Faiths, the
Arochukwu, Atheists, Agnostics and Mushrikin / Polytheists - so that
she will know which queue to join, not for soul-searching but for the
obligatory body scan, by virtue of being a Nigerian - and that
definition also extends to bona fide, legal US Citizens who may happen
to have been born in Nigeria etc.)
> *In the name of God, the Mercy-giving, the Merciful! *
> translation,http://www.isgkc.org/translat.htm, searching for the word
> http://www.kwenu.com/publications/aluko/aluko_qb111901.htm<http://www.amanaonline.com/Articles/art_143.htm>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 10:13 PM, afis <odidere2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > *"So, religion itself is not bad and can be very valuable to the
> > vulnerable in the society, however, the vulnerable are the very set up
> > people who can easily be led astray when a religion is used by very
> > intelligent, shrewd and egocentric politicians to achieve their political
> > goals." By FOlajide.*
>
> > **
>
> > My comment: We're talking about the foundation of hate, brother Femi, not
> > the politics of religion. Yes, religion is the opium of the masses, so says
> > Karl Marx. And I also agree politics is that ingredient that drives
> > religion into a delirium. However, you cannot separate Humans from
> > politics, that comes under another thread. The thread here is Allah's
> > pronouncement to the faithfuls, that they should "hate" others.
>
> > As you must have read from Mallam Hamza's response, he could not dispute
> > the words of Allah because for a good muslim that would be blasphemous.
>
> > Allah says *"O you who believe. Do not take the Jews and the Christians
> > for Friends, for they are Friends of each other. And whoever amongst you who
> > should take them for a Friend, is then one of them. For Allah does NOT guide
> > the unjust people."* .......Suratul Alma-id.
>
> > And this is Mallam Hamza's response to the above:
>
> > "You have raised valid points about what the Qur’an and Hadiths say
> > concerning the relationships between Muslims and non-muslims. It would be
> > naïve of me to even try and give a satisfactory explanation to some of your
> > points. Am not a “Hafiz” (one learned in the Qur’an), but I will address
> > some of your points."
>
> > What you should now ask Mallam Hamza is "do you Mallam Hamza believe in the
> > above words of your Allah?"
> > And if he says "Yes", then his religious belief is therefore founded on
> > "Hate". It's as simple as that.
> > What has politics got to do with what Allah says, brother Femi?
>
> > Mallam Hamza never disputed the above facts, he could go on with all that
> > academic rigmarole, the above fact remains indisputable. And if Allah says
> > the above, then it follows that Afis is not talking "politics" of the modern
> > times or any other era.
> > What I am saying is that "Hatred" for others is sanctioned by the Qur'an.
> > Islamic fanatics may choose to expound on Allah's words, and be creative,
> > but the fact remains that Allah approves "hatred" for others.
> > Please read it again. This is more than kosher, but not politics.
> > *Shikena.*
> > *afis*
>
> > --- On *Tue, 1/5/10, femi Olajide <olajide.f...@yahoo.com>* wrote:
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* hamza aliyu <hamin...@yahoo.com>
> > *To:* TalkNige...@yahoogroups.com; val...@md.metrocast.net; femi Olajide <
> > olajide.f...@yahoo.com>; naijapolit...@yahoogroups.com; Odua <
> > omoo...@yahoogroups.com>; Wharf Snake <wharfsn...@yahoo.com>;
> > odidere2...@yahoo.com; hamin...@yahoo.com; Pius Adesanmi <
> > piusadesa...@yahoo.com>
> > *Sent:* Tue, 5 January, 2010 22:18:05
> > *Subject:* Fw: To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Jews & Xtians, What The Quran says
>
> > ----- Forwarded Message ----
> > *From:* hamza aliyu <hamin...@yahoo.com>
> > *To:* afis <odidere2...@yahoo.com>
> > *Sent:* Tue, January 5, 2010 11:15:05 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Jews & Xtians, What The Quran says
>
> > Greetings afis,
>
> > I really do realize that no amount of explaination would convince you that
> > the actions of people are not necessarily the true values of a religion.
>
> > You have raised valid points about what the Qur’an and Hadiths say
> > concerning the relationships between Muslims and non-muslims. It would be
> > naïve of me to even try and give a satisfactory explanation to some of your
> > points. Am not a “Hafiz” (one learned in the Qur’an), but I will address
> > some of your points.
>
> > You said and I quote “*The two quotes above are what the Wahabists rely
> > on for their core beliefs. And Wahabism is the officially sanctioned
> > version of Islam practice in Saudi Arabia to the present time. And Saudi
> > Arabia happens to own and found Islam*.”
>
> > Who are the Wahabists? Is Wahabism synonymous with Islam? And where did you
> > read that “Saudi Arabia owns and found islam”? If that is true could we
> > safely say that Israel own and found Christianity? Is it because The Prophet
> > is from Saudi Arabia? For someone so educated you really surprise me with
> > your outbursts!
>
> > *“**Would our Hausa and Fulani Muslims now claim they know Islam more than
> > Saudi Arabia**?”*
>
> > The above statement clearly demonstrates your illogical string of
> > reasoning. Would it be safe to argue that Italians know Christianity more
> > than Nigerians like yourself just because it is the centre of Christiandom?
>
> > My dear Afis, education expects us to use it to better our lives rather
> > than it being a route for destruction.
>
> > “*Even those Yoruba who claim they are staunch Muslims are really NOT.
> > Most of them are liberalistic in their way of worship, which is called
> > "Manafiqi" in Islam. It's different from being an infidel which is "kafir",
> > but a "Manafiqi" can hardly be accepted in heavens, according to the Qur'an
> > *.”
>
> > You all of a sudden turned from Afis to a religious judge. It is only you
> > that can explain how you came to the conclusion that Muslim Yorubas are not
> > Muslims! My Islam states that anyone who professes that there is no God But
> > God(ALLAH) and that Mohammed is the Servant and Messenger of ALLAH, that
> > person automatically becomes a muslim, irrespective of whether he or she
> > works according to the teachings of the religion or not.
>
> > "*Al-Manafiq" is an Arabic word that means "hypocrite', one who pretends
> > to be a "believer". Those kind of people "Al-Manafiq" are to be ostracized,
> > according to the Qur'an, for they are worse than the "Al-Kafir" (Infidel),
> > and the "Al-Fajir" (sinner)*.
>
> > You confuse me when you talk like this. First you correctly explain what a
> > “Manafiq” means and then you equate it to non hausa/Fulani Muslims. Do you
> > mean that Muslim Southerners are hypocrites? You do know the meaning of the
> > word do not you? Of course you do!
>
> > I would feel very offended, if I were I non hausa/Fulani Muslim person, and
> > you called me a hypocrite (PRETENDER) in my religion. Can you see where that
> > logic goes to? Why should someone be a pretender in faith? Its either you
> > have it or you don’t! that is what the Qur’anic verse is saying - A
> > PRETENDER IN FAITH IS WORSE THAN AN UNBELIEVER!
>
> > You should apologise to all non hausa/fulani Nigerians who are muslims for
> > this uncharitable statement.
>
> > The Prophet Mohammed said in one of his hadiths that if a muslim calls
> > another muslim a Kafir (unbeliever), it automatically confers hell fire for
> > one of them.
>
> > “*When you liberalize Islam, you're "Al-Manafiqi", and NOT a true
> > believer, according to Saudi Arabia.* “
>
> > Thank goodness you did not say according to the Qur’an or Hadith! By the
> > way what do you mean by “liberalize Islam”? do you mean that not having an
> > extremist view of Islam makes me a “Munafiq”? When did Saudi Arabia become
> > the Qur’an? Am beginning to think you are from Afghanistan! (just joking!)
>
> > “*It's this strict Wahhabist doctrine that ostracizes the "Al-Hammadiyat
> > sect" from the real Muslim world*.”
>
> > You seem to have formed your opinion about Islam and muslims from your
> > limited interaction with Muslims with extreme views. The “*Wahhabist” and "Al-Hammadiyat”
> > are sects in islam.*
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* afis <odidere2...@yahoo.com>
> > *To:* TalkNige...@yahoogroups.com; val...@md.metrocast.net; femi Olajide <
> > olajide.f...@yahoo.com>; naijapolit...@yahoogroups.com; Odua <
> > omoo...@yahoogroups.com>; Wharf Snake <wharfsn...@yahoo.com>;
> > odidere2...@yahoo.com
> > *Cc:* hamin...@yahoo.com; Pius Adesanmi <piusadesa...@yahoo.com>
> > *Sent:* Tue, January 5, 2010 3:05:47 PM
> > *Subject:* To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Jews & Xtians, What The Quran says
>
> > *This is Allah's voice to the "Al-Muminin", Believers:* *"O you who
> > believe. Do not take the Jews and the Christians for Friends, for they are
> > Friends of each other. And whoever amongst you who should take them for a
> > Friend, is then one of them. For Allah does NOT guide the unjust people."* .......Suratul
> > Alma-id.
>
> > *And in view of Allah's orders to His believers, Prophet Muhammed has this
> > to say in the Hadith:* * "May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians,
> > for they take the graves of their Prophets as a place of worship"*
>
> > The above words spoken by Allah and His prophet Muhammed, are the
> > cornerstones of most Islamic teachings, and how to view and treat the
> > non-believers such as Jews and Christians, including the deluded Igbo-Jews.
>
> > These are iron-clad facts that could be found in the Holy Qur'an and
> > Mohammed's Hadiths.
>
> > The two quotes above are what the Wahabists rely on for their core
> > beliefs. And Wahabism is the officially sanctioned version of Islam
> > practice in Saudi Arabia to the present time. And Saudi Arabia happens to
> > own and found Islam.
>
> > *Would our Hausa and Fulani Muslims now claim they know Islam more than
> > Saudi Arabia?*
>
> > Mallam Hamza and people like Mallam Wane, if they read the Qur'an and the
> > Eadith, then they understand where Afis is coming from.
> > But it's easier to fool the Southerners in Nigeria because most Southerners
> > are ignorants on Islamic teachings. Even some Southerners will ask where
> > AIs gets his name. That's how divergency often creates confusion.
>
> > Even those Yoruba who claim they are staunch Muslims are really NOT. Most
> > of them are liberalistic in their way of worship, which is called "Manafiqi"
> > in Islam. It's different from being an infidel which is "kafir", but a
> > "Manafiqi" can hardly be accepted in heavens, according to the Qur'an.
> > "Al-Manafiq" is an Arabic word that means "hypocrite', one who pretends to
> > be a "believer".
> > Those kind of people "Al-Manafiq" are to be ostracized, according to the
> > Qur'an, for they are worse than the "Al-Kafir" (Infidel), and the "Al-Fajir"
> > (sinner). When you liberalize Islam, you're "Al-Manafiqi", and NOT a true
> > believer, according to Saudi Arabia. It's this strict Wahhabist doctrine
> > that ostracizes the "Al-Hammadiyat sect" from the real Muslim world.
> > Most of the time the sect members are not allowed into Mecca during the
> > Hajj, because they are seen as "Al-Manafiqi" who had committed "Bidah" by
> > amending some of the Quranic teachings.
>
> > *Let us now relate "Al-Manafiq" and "Kafir" To Our Nigeria:* The Islamic
> > North always sees and calls the Muslims in the S-West "Al-Manafiq" or
> > outrightly "al-Kafir". And the Islamic-North calls the South-East and the
> > South-South including the Middle-belt except Kwara-North "al-Kafir".
>
> > *Now the clincher:* If Allah says Jews and Christians are bad and the
> > believers "Al-muminin" should not take them as Friends, and if most of the
> > S-West, and all of the Middle-belt, the Kwara-South, South-South and
> > South-East are Christians (including deluded Igbo-Jews), could Mallam Hamza
> > tells us how a true believer could overcome this Qur'anic pronouncement?
> > How then could there be unity in Nigeria, as been propagated by Dr Kassim?
>
> > Mind you, words from the Qur'an are un-amendable according to the orders of
> > Abdul Al-Wahhab, the 18th century founder of Wahhabism. According to
> > Al-Wahhab, any change or amendment to any part of the Qur'an, or innovations
> > or loose interpretations (Bidah) are forbidden.
>
> > So, how do you have a unified nation if the Northern Muslims are forbidden
> > to be (true) Friends with the Southerners? A religion that adheres to the
> > belief that killing of Christians and Jews is justified thru the Jihad
> > Doctrine?
>
> > *Shikena.*
> > *afis*
>
> > --- On *Mon, 1/4/10, Wharf Snake <wharfsn...@yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
> > From: Wharf Snake <wharfsn...@yahoo.com>
>
> > Subject: Re: [TalkNigeria] To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Marriage & Acceptable
> > Govt In A Nation
> > To: TalkNige...@yahoogroups.com, val...@md.metrocast.net, "femi Olajide" <
> > olajide.f...@yahoo.com>, naijapolit...@yahoogroups.com, "Odua" <
> > omoo...@yahoogroups.com>, odidere2...@yahoo.com
> > Cc: hamin...@yahoo.com, "Pius Adesanmi" <piusadesa...@yahoo.com>
>
> > Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 10:04 PM
>
> > Who is HAMZA? That name is not familiar to the lowly creature of the
> > Wild. When did Hamza join this forum? Is it possible that Dr. Yahaya Hamis
> > is now doubling up as HAMZA? Hmn... Inquiring minds will wanna know, o jare!
>
> > Agwo emeghi nke o jiri buru agwo,umuaka achiri ya hie nku
> > Wharf Aiseokhuoba Snake
> > Idi-oro, Lagos.
>
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* afis <odidere2...@yahoo.com>
> > *To:* val...@md.metrocast.net; femi Olajide <olajide.f...@yahoo.com>;
> > TalkNige...@yahoogroups.com; naijapolit...@yahoogroups.com; Odua <
> > omoo...@yahoogroups.com>; odidere2...@yahoo.com
> > *Cc:* hamin...@yahoo.com; Pius Adesanmi <piusadesa...@yahoo.com>
>
> > *Sent:* Mon, January 4, 2010 9:27:20 PM
> > *Subject:* [TalkNigeria] To Mallam Hamza: Islam & Marriage & Acceptable
> > Govt In A Nation
>
> > *"dear afis,
> > please in the name of all that is good, the above quotation is not
> > islamic tradition! please! THIS IS EXACTLY THE MINDSET THAT HAS MADE
> > RELIGION IN NIGERIA A CURSE RATHER THAN A BLESSING your use of the
> > word "infidel" is a wicked translation meant to cause disaffection
> > between nigerians ("...ie. other Nigerians even the Yoruba Muslims )
> > "...These two pricinples of Faith are iron-clad" please where did
> > you get this ! it is good that you are venting your anger and
> > frustrations out, believe me i am angry too at my fellow muslims, but
> > we should be looking for ways to change things E GO BETTER!" By HAMZA.*
>
> > My comment: Mallam Hamza, who's angry? Me? Well, you got it very wrong.
> > Stating facts could not involve anger, in my own way of life.
> > Islam is a very disciplined religion if followed diligently, but very
> > controlling and takes lots of the worshippers' time. Anyway, let us get
> > to the nitty-gritty:
>
> > Mallam Hamza, if you say that a woman born into an Islamic household is
> > permitted by the Quran to marry a Christian, while the Christian remains a
> > Christian, then I say to your face that you're lying.
> > A Muslim cannot marry another person from any other religion EXCEPT if the
> > non-believer who is also known as an INFIDEL, agrees to become a Muslim.
>
> > I am not going to waste my valuable time on Mallam Hamza.
> > If he's a true Muslim, and if he actually understands the teachings of
> > Muhammed and the his Hadith and Holy Quran, then he would have known that
> > what I stated are facts.
>
> > The "honor killing" is NOT in the Quran, that's killing daughters for
> > marrying someone not acceptable to the parents or an infidel.
> > I may be wrong, but in my last knowledge of the Quran, that was not part of
> > the Islamic teachings, but an EXTENSION from the old traditions of the
> > Arab-Persian- Asiatic peoples.
> > But it became well suited for the Jihadists, to "kill" a relative who
> > marries an infidel. It's now an accepted part of Islam by most of the
> > Arabs, Pakistan and the rest. Most of the Islamic nations in Asia and Arab
> > world would not prosecute for "Honor Killing".
>
> > Just as Dr Ojo stated, Mallam Hamza, why don't you educate us on what the
> > Hadith says on marriage between a non-believer and a Muslim? *And then we
> > will go to the next one about acceptable Government or Leadership in a
> > nation, acoording to Islam.*
> > I may even dust up my Quran and do some digging up of facts. How about you
> > telling us what the Quran and Hadith say on the subject of inter-marriage
> > between religions?
>
> > Please, I am clear headed, not angry and ready to roll.
> > *Shikena.*
> > *afis*
> > --- On *Mon, 1/4/10, femi Olajide <olajide.femi@ yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
> > From: femi Olajide <olajide.femi@ yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Naijanet] RE: TO PROFESSOR PIUS ADESANMI: Why Would Yoruba
> > Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
> > To: val...@md.metrocast .net, NIgerianWorldForum@ yahoogroups. com
> > Cc: hamingra@yahoo. com, "Odidere Afis" <odidere2001@ yahoo.com>, "Pius
> > Adesanmi" <piusadesanmi@ yahoo.com>
> > Date: Monday, January 4, 2010, 8:43 PM
>
> > Seconded.
>
> > -Femi Olajide.
>
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Dr. Valentine Ojo <val...@md.metrocast .net>
> > *To:* NIgerianWorldForum@ yahoogroups. com
> > *Cc:* hamingra@yahoo. com; Odidere Afis <odidere2001@ yahoo.com>; Pius
> > Adesanmi <piusadesanmi@ yahoo.com>
>
> > *Sent:* Tue, 5 January, 2010 1:39:15
> > *Subject:* [Naijanet] RE: TO PROFESSOR PIUS ADESANMI: Why Would Yoruba
> > Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
>
> > Dear Hamza Aliyu:
>
> > You have always struck me as a very intelligent and moderate human
> > being, the kind of person that makes one still believe that Nigeria
> > can still be salvaged - maybe.
>
> > Please do me a favor.
>
> > Do not stop at merely objecting that Afis Odidere could be wrong
> > because what he described - according to you - "is not islamic
> > tradition! please! THIS IS EXACTLY THE MINDSET THAT HAS MADE RELIGION
> > IN NIGERIA A CURSE RATHER THAN A BLESSING!"
>
> > Please go a step further, and try to educate us all as to what Islam
> > is truly about, and try to counter the MAJOR DAMAGES that
> > Islamic/Hausa- Fulani FUNDAMENTALISTS and MAITATSINE DISCIPLES like
> > Malam Wane (Salihu Mustafa) and Samirah Faruk (and the poor misguided
> > boy, Faruk Mutallab, who wanted to kill and die for a religion he
> > obviously did not understand) have done on these forums, giving Islam
> > and the Hausa-Fulani a rather bad reputation among Southerners.
>
> > It may help to again restore some trust in the political experiment
> > called Nigeria.
>
> > Thanks!
> > Dr. Valentine Ojo
>
> > Tall Timbers, MD
> > On Mon 01/04/10 7:41 AM , hamza aliyu hamingra@yahoo. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hamingra%40yahoo.com>sent:
> > "There are two anti-Islam that could put blemish on a true
> > muslim and put the believer in line for a throne in hell, according
> > the Hadith and the Quran: 1. To accept the leadership of an
> > infidel, ie. other Nigerians even the Yoruba Muslims. 2. To marry
> > or to allow your child to marry an infidel, however with a proviso: A
> > believer and the faithful may elect to marry or permit his child to
> > marry a non-believer and an infidel, as long as the infidel accepts
> > Islam. These two pricinples of Faith are iron-clad." dear afis,
> > please in the name of all that is good, the above quotation is not
> > islamic tradition! please! THIS IS EXACTLY THE MINDSET THAT HAS MADE
> > RELIGION IN NIGERIA A CURSE RATHER THAN A BLESSING your use of the
> > word "infidel" is a wicked translation meant to cause disaffection
> > between nigerians ("...ie. other Nigerians even the Yoruba Muslims )
> > "...These two pricinples of Faith are iron-clad" please where did
> > you get this ! it is good that you are venting your anger and
> > frustrations out, believe me i am angry too at my fellow muslims, but
> > we should be looking for ways to change things E GO BETTER! HAMZA
>
> > ------------ --------- ----
> > FROM: Dr. Valentine Ojo
> > TO: NigerianWorldForum
> > CC: agwu22@yahoo. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agwu22%40yahoo.com>;
> > Odidere Afis ; Pius Adesanmi
> > SENT: Mon, January 4, 2010 3:23:23 AM
> > SUBJECT: [Naijaintellects] RE: TO PROFESSOR PIUS ADESANMI: Why Would
> > Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba
> > Language?
> > "Dr. Ojo was sending him articles to publish in her little yeye
> > magazine." - "Chukwuma S. Agwunobi" agwu22@yahoo. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agwu22%40yahoo.com>[1]
> > Ogbuefi Mazi Chukwuma Agwunobi:
>
> > Me? What the hell are you talking about?
>
> > You lie bad!
>
> > Whom did I send what article to publish in which magzine?
>
> > That's a fabrication of your fertile Onitsha Market literature
> > brains.
>
> > Okoro Ajokuta Mamomi! Olodo!
> > Dr. Valentine Ojo
>
> > Tall Timbers, MD
> > On Sun 01/03/10 9:06 PM , "Chukwuma S. Agwunobi" agwu22@yahoo. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agwu22%40yahoo.com>
> > --- On SUN, 1/3/10, AFIS _YAHOO.COM <http://yahoo.com/>>_ wrote:
> > From: afis yahoo.com>
> > Subject: [TalkNigeria] Re: [OmoOdua] Why Would Yoruba Women Join a
> > Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba Language?
> > To: TalkNigeria@ yahoogroups. com, naijapolitics@ yahoogroups. com,
> > "Odua" .com>, OmoOdua@yahoogroups .com, val...@md.metrocast<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=valojo%40md.metrocast>.net,
> > nigerianworldforum@ yahoogroups. com, val...@md.metrocast<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=valojo%40md.metrocast>.net,
> > naijaintellects@ googlegroups. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=naijaintellects%40googl...>
> > .
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > naijaintellects+ unsubscribe@ googlegroups. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=naijaintellects%2Bunsub...>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
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>
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1] mailto:agwu22@yahoo. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agwu22%40yahoo.com>
> > [2]
> >http://us.mc1115. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=OmoOdua@ yahoogroups. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=OmoO...@yahoogroups.com>
> > [3]
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> > [5] mailto:agwu22@yahoo. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agwu22%40yahoo.com>?subject=TO
> > PROFESSOR PIUS ADESANMI: Why
> > Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba Men and Yoruba
> > Language?
> > [6] mailto:TalkNigeria@ yahoogroups. com<http://us.mc1115.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=TalkNigeria%40yahoogrou...>?subject=TO
> > PROFESSOR PIUS
> > ADESANMI: Why Would Yoruba Women Join a Hausa Woman to INSULT Yoruba
> > Men and Yoruba Language?
> > [7]
> >http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/TalkNigeri a/message/ 95412;_ylc=
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