Ancient Egyptian in the context of African Languages

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Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Sep 23, 2019, 6:39:32 AM9/23/19
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Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department, Central Connecticut State University
www.africahistory.net
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries
2014 Distinguished Research Excellence Award in African Studies
 University of Texas at Austin
2019   Distinguished Africanist Award                   
New York African Studies Association
 

Egyptian as an African Language, Satzinger.pdf

Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Sep 23, 2019, 11:16:54 AM9/23/19
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Are the West Asian Semitic languages offshoots of  African
languages  -  given the fact that  apparently all Semitic languages
but two are indigenous to  Africa.

I hope Professor Bekerie of  Mekelle University,  Ethiopia, and other experts in this area of research, can shed light on this issue.



Professor Gloria Emeagwali

Biko Agozino

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Sep 23, 2019, 4:52:13 PM9/23/19
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Since human life originated in Africa, the linguistic hypothesis that language also originated in Africa and then spread from there to the extent that all languages are linked to an African mother tongue:

Biko

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Abdul Salau

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Sep 23, 2019, 6:27:51 PM9/23/19
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Languages captures specific fauna and faura.   Semitic languages are not related to Ancient Egyptian  and modern African languages using sound correspondences. That is  the outcome of the UNESCO conference in 1974.   The Egyptian Grammar used to study  Ancient Egyptian language  Gardiner concludes that until the relationship between Ancient Egyptian  and African languages is established semitic languages are not related to Ancient Egyptian language. 

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Gloria Emeagwali

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Sep 23, 2019, 7:07:59 PM9/23/19
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 Homo sapiens dates to 250,000 and 300,000 years ago, and the exodus from Africa to other continents dates to  45,000 and 80,000 years ago.  Language had a long time to develop within the continent, apparently.

Harrow, Kenneth

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Sep 23, 2019, 7:30:58 PM9/23/19
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my understanding from linguists' work a few years ago is that language began in the horn, more or less. it is amazing that they can actually work this out, but the science points in that direction, for some time now.


kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

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From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.e...@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the context of African Languages
 

Gloria Emeagwali

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Sep 23, 2019, 8:18:28 PM9/23/19
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So what are the closest genetically related African  languages, to ancient Egyptian? Chadic languages?

GE




OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Sep 25, 2019, 8:08:24 AM9/25/19
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If it is true that homo erectus first walked in Africa about 3 million years ago ( as I have taught my history classes) and the first exo-African Diaspora. movement started only 30, 000 years ago it follows that ALL languages originated in Africa.

OAA



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-------- Original message --------
From: 'Biko Agozino' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Date: 23/09/2019 21:54 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the contextof  African Languages

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Since human life originated in Africa, the linguistic hypothesis that language also originated in Africa and then spread from there to the extent that all languages are linked to an African mother tongue:

Biko
On Monday, 23 September 2019, 11:16:56 GMT-4, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emea...@ccsu.edu> wrote:


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Abdul Salau

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Sep 25, 2019, 1:19:03 PM9/25/19
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All modern African languages are  related to Ancient Egyptian they all belong to one language family. 

Khoi_San relationship to Ancient Egyptian needs further study. 

Berber belongs to another language family. 

Semitic languages belongs to  another  language family.

See Obenga African language  family and book 

See Cheikh anta diop book 
Common Origin of Ancient Egyptian and Modern African languages. 



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Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Sep 25, 2019, 1:19:18 PM9/25/19
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Are you merging  australopithecus afarensis and homo erectus?
Dinknesh  (Lucy) of the a.afarensis family is 3.2 million years old.

Another question is about the speech of homo erectus. I think we are on safer ground
pointing to homo sapiens, estimated to  emerge  in Africa between 250,000 and
300,000 years ago.


GE


Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department, Central Connecticut State University
www.africahistory.net
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries
2014 Distinguished Research Excellence Award in African Studies
 University of Texas at Austin
2019   Distinguished Africanist Award                   
New York African Studies Association
 


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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the contextof African Languages
 

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Harrow, Kenneth

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Sep 25, 2019, 6:33:41 PM9/25/19
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doesn't this depend on what we mean by a language family? i thought that linguists were in agreement of where language got started, east africa.
how it branched out, dispersed, developed into separate languages, resulting in...?...different families doesn't belie the claim that it, like humans, had one region when it developed.
ken

kenneth harrow

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michigan state university

517 803-8839

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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the context of African Languages

Farooq A. Kperogi

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Sep 26, 2019, 6:51:44 AM9/26/19
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There's not the remotest scientific evidence to support the claim that "all modern African languages are related to ancient Egyptian." That is, in fact, implausible since African languages evince vast linguistic diversity and belong to different families.

There are broadly four language families that are indigenous to modern Africa: Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, Afro-Asiatic, and the so-called click languages (also called Khoisan) of southern Africa. There are also many unclassifiable language isolates in many parts of the continent.

The vast majority of languages in the continent belong to the Niger-Congo family. More than 70 percent of languages in west, central, and eastern Africa are Niger-Congo languages.

 The Semitic languages of Ethiopia and the Middle East and languages in the Berber cluster all belong to the Afro-Asiatic language family. Hausa, Babur, Tangale, Bade, Kamwe, Ngas, etc. in northern Nigeria are members of the Chadic subphylum of the Afro-Asiatic family. Kanuri and Luo are prominent examples of Nilo-Saharan languages.

It's linguistically untenable for languages in Africa's divergent families to all be related to "ancient Egyptian."

Farooq



Personal website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter: @farooqkperogi
 

Sent from my phone. Please forgive typos and omissions.

Abdul Salau

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Sep 26, 2019, 7:28:53 AM9/26/19
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Farooq you need to acquaint yourself to the new developments in African linguistics. There has been improvements in the African language family classification made by Joseph Greenberg. The weakness of 
Greenberg African language family was based on typologies , and the new African  language family is based on sound correspondences consistent with historical linguistics principles. 
 You cannot reject what you don't know. The new language family was developed after UNESCO Conference in 1974, which examined the relationship of African languages to Ancient Egyptian language. 
I can give you more information if you have humility to admit you don't know. The literature is in French and is not familiar to scholars working with English language. You are rejecting the thesis without examining facts and  I am not sure you have any knowledge of  Ancient Egyptian language.

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Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Sep 26, 2019, 7:29:08 AM9/26/19
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Agreed. To move the debate forward we have to
avoid contradictory and circular argumentation.

As for the origin of languages,  I do recall suggestions that Khoisan
could have been among the earliest. This does not conflict with
the East African source mentioned by Ken since an East African origin
of the Khoisan has been suggested by some scholars.



Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies, CCSU
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Farooq A. Kperogi <farooq...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 11:47:44 PM
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Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the context of African Languages
 

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There's not the remotest scientific evidence to support the claim that "all modern African languages are related to ancient Egyptian." That is, in fact, implausible since African languages evince vast linguistic diversity and belong to different families.

Harrow, Kenneth

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Sep 26, 2019, 11:12:41 AM9/26/19
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my limited knowledge of the origins of language comes from grover hudson, a linguist at msu whom abdul knows well, i believe. grover showed us how linguists could measure the speed of change in languages, with the evidence indicating that all languages could be traced back to east africa--also, logically, the home for homo sapien sapiens. koisan would have been part of all people who spread over the continent and over the world.
the alternative theory is for multiple points of origin for humans and language; i thought the dating of existing evidence made that not very credible.
periodically the chinese make claims for their being originary; i don't think that is currently considered credible, but again, this is not my field. only when teaching african humanities did this material come into my teaching, and that's been quite a while ago.

one thing here--making claims about the centrality of africa seems too defensive. why should we care what others think about this. "africa" is a place whose very name comes much later in history, and its early history is common to all humanity, as far as i know.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emea...@ccsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:16 AM

OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Sep 26, 2019, 11:41:39 AM9/26/19
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Thank you Abdul Salau. I once used the  sound differences in Yoruba dialects to point to the likely origins of Oduduwa breaking this to etymologies and I remember Farooq making a tangential argument that this  does not follow when he was writing on Hausa and Fulani.

OAA.





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-------- Original message --------
From: Abdul Salau <salau...@gmail.com>
Date: 26/09/2019 12:44 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the contextof  African Languages

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Farooq you need to acquaint yourself to the new developments in African linguistics. There has been improvements in the African language family classification made by Joseph Greenberg. The weakness of 
Greenberg African language family was based on typologies , and the new African  language family is based on sound correspondences consistent with historical linguistics principles. 
 You cannot reject what you don't know. The new language family was developed after UNESCO Conference in 1974, which examined the relationship of African languages to Ancient Egyptian language. 
I can give you more information if you have humility to admit you don't know. The literature is in French and is not familiar to scholars working with English language. You are rejecting the thesis without examining facts and  I am not sure you have any knowledge of  Ancient Egyptian language.

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 6:51 AM Farooq A. Kperogi <farooq...@gmail.com> wrote:

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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Sep 26, 2019, 11:41:42 AM9/26/19
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I dont know what is meant by Khoisan could have been among the earliest.

Language acquisition happened in humanity's state of becoming. It did not happen in a fell swoop to one community over the others.

We must imagine various communities roaming Africa picking up and letting go of linguistic concepts until they congealed into  individual languages.  It think it was a collective enterprise including ancient Egyptian language.

The pity is ancient Egyptian language died out as did others while other groups adapter and modernized in various locales.  Its somewhat like the big bang and the formation of planets.

OAA.



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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Sep 26, 2019, 12:54:33 PM9/26/19
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The multiple points theory seem more plausible to me.

People are just being unduly influenced by the biblical babel parable in suggesting one language at the beginning.

OAA.



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-------- Original message --------
From: "Harrow, Kenneth" <har...@msu.edu>
Date: 26/09/2019 16:33 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the contextof  African Languages

Boxbe This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (har...@msu.edu) Add cleanup rule | More info
my limited knowledge of the origins of language comes from grover hudson, a linguist at msu whom abdul knows well, i believe. grover showed us how linguists could measure the speed of change in languages, with the evidence indicating that all languages could be traced back to east africa--also, logically, the home for homo sapien sapiens. koisan would have been part of all people who spread over the continent and over the world.
the alternative theory is for multiple points of origin for humans and language; i thought the dating of existing evidence made that not very credible.
periodically the chinese make claims for their being originary; i don't think that is currently considered credible, but again, this is not my field. only when teaching african humanities did this material come into my teaching, and that's been quite a while ago.

one thing here--making claims about the centrality of africa seems too defensive. why should we care what others think about this. "africa" is a place whose very name comes much later in history, and its early history is common to all humanity, as far as i know.
ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emea...@ccsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:16 AM

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Farooq A. Kperogi

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Sep 26, 2019, 9:37:30 PM9/26/19
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So a book of proceedings in French from a 1974 UNESCO conference is the "new development in African linguistics" that trumps all the research that has been done by well-regarded linguists on the ancient Egyptian language? Ha!

The closest living language to the ancient Egyptian language is Coptic (see James Allen’s The Ancient Egyptian Language: An Historical Study, Cambridge University Press, 2013), vestiges of which are still spoken as a liturgical language in modern Egypt. It's an Afro-Asiatic language. I don't know how an Afro-Asiatic language can be related to all modern African languages. You don't even have to have the faintest familiarity with historical linguistics to know that this is a laughably unsupportable, not to mention unscientific, claim.

Farooq


Farooq A. Kperogi, Ph.D.
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"The nice thing about pessimism is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." G. F. Will


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Abdul Salau

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Sep 27, 2019, 8:08:19 AM9/27/19
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Farooq
You did not read the book. To get elementary  knowledge on the development  of Ancient Egyptian and  modern African languages. You don't have expert knowledge on this matter.  I cannot argue with you all I can do is to tell to update your knowledge.
The book highlights how  two African linguists and Egyptologists Cheikh Anta Diop and  Theophile Obenga in a proceeding of only Egyptologists  Diop and Obenga debunked the theory that Ancient Egyptian  language is Semitic and in the Afroasiatic language family.  I am working in the field and have capabilities to interrogate these issues critically. If you have the humility to open the book you will be entertained and you will be pleasantly informed.  These two scholars deserve their works to be critical evaluated. Judging a book  without interrogation iis anti intellectual and fraudulent.  Yoruba proverb says that when we are crying we can see.  You are laughing, and I am hoping you can  see also when you are laughing.

After the conference many news books have been published by Obenga and Diop. 
A peer reviewed journal Ankh is online and Cheikh Anta Diop University.in Senegal now offers a degree in Egyptology based.. All these developments are the fruits of the 1974 UNESCO conference.






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Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Sep 27, 2019, 11:11:56 AM9/27/19
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"africa" is a place whose very name comes much later in history, and its
early history is common to all humanity, as far as i know." harrow



The continent and land mass  now called  Africa has been given different names over time but
the  people within remain unaffected by the changing naming process. "Call us what you will"
may be one of the unheard chants.


You are right.  The continent  is "common to all humanity" and was in fact
central to its emergence. This sounds obvious to you and me but the forces of
marginalization remain oblivious to that reality.

That is why from time to time the point is made-
to combat denialism.





Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department, Central Connecticut State University
www.africahistory.net
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries
2014 Distinguished Research Excellence Award in African Studies
 University of Texas at Austin
2019   Distinguished Africanist Award                   
New York African Studies Association
 


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Farooq A. Kperogi

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Sep 27, 2019, 2:32:32 PM9/27/19
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Abdul Salau has missed his calling in comedy😀. This isn't meant as a put-down. You are genuinely funny. So you can divine whether or not I have read a book I cited from the comfort of your room? LOL! 

Your comedic side was on full display in this YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXl70_VVz9M  where you strained so hard to make the case that contemporary Nigerians migrated from southern Sudan to their present locations and displaced/mixed with the "aboriginal" population who used to be really "short." And what is the evidence for this claim? That the names of certain towns in Nigeria (such as Lokoja, Nok, Uduk, etc.) correspond with the names of certain ethnic groups in South Sudan!!! Maybe Japan is African, too, since most Japanese names sound African. In fact, Obama is also the name of a town in Japan.

If I knew you were one of these "pan-Africanist" scholars who are devoted to making wild, feel-good, evidence-free, unsupportable claims about Africa and who are obsessed with "proving" the "blackness" of Egypt as if their lives and self-worth depend on it, I frankly wouldn't have engaged you. I steer clear of such people.

Farooq







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Abdul Salau

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Sep 27, 2019, 2:32:33 PM9/27/19
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See data and sound correspondences between Ancient Egyptian and Yoruba languages.  No amount  of ideology or sweeping generalization about some lack of data or  sciencitific proof can destroy this data attested to in both languages. Enjoy and give me your feedbacks. If you want we can work on your language and Ancient Egyptian



On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 6:51 AM Farooq A. Kperogi <farooq...@gmail.com> wrote:
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ankh_16_t_obenga_ancient egyptian and modern yoruba.pdf

O O

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Sep 28, 2019, 4:00:21 AM9/28/19
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This unproductive chronic obsession with “proving” fundamental connections with “ancient Egypt” smacks of inferiority complex (IC). Please direct or refocus your vast intellectual energies toward developing our undeveloped or underdeveloped infrastructure: transportation and communications systems, water and power lines, public institutions, especially schools, post offices, and prisons.


On Sep 27, 2019, at 1:34 PM, Abdul Salau <salau...@gmail.com> wrote:


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<ankh_16_t_obenga_ancient egyptian and modern yoruba.pdf>

Abdul Salau

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Sep 28, 2019, 4:00:25 AM9/28/19
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Farooq 
check out this sound correspondences between Ancient Egyptian and Yoruba.  Please let us remain on rational basis not personal and emotional basis.  What you  think  of me is  your opinion (doxa in  Greek). What is important is what facts or reasons (logos in Greek)do you have to  corroborate your assertion that there is a no relationship between Modern African languages and  Ancient Egyptian. I will be waiting to get facts from you which affirms  your point of view. 

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ankh_16_t_obenga_ancient egyptian and modern yoruba.pdf

Gloria Emeagwali

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Sep 28, 2019, 8:22:43 AM9/28/19
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Collapse of an ecological network in Ancient Egypt

Justin D. Yeakel, Mathias M. Pires, Lars Rudolf, Nathaniel J. Dominy, Paul L. Koch, Paulo R. Guimarães Jr., and Thilo Gross
PNAS October 7, 2014 111 (40) 14472-14477; first published September 8, 2014 https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1408471111
Justin D. Yeakel
aDepartment of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of California, Santa Cruz, CA 95064;bEarth to Oceans Research Group, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5A 1S6;cSanta Fe Institute, Santa Fe, NM 87501;
Mathias M. Pires
dDepartamento de Ecologia, Universidade de São Paulo, CEP 05508-090, São Paulo, SP, Brazil;
Lars Rudolf
eDepartment of Engineering and Mathematics, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1UB, United Kingdom;fMax Planck Institute for the Dynamics of Complex Systems, D-01187 Dresden, Germany;
Nathaniel J. Dominy
Departments of gAnthropology andhBiological Sciences, Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH 03755; and
Paul L. Koch
iDepartment of Earth and Planetary Sciences, University of California, Santa Cruz, CA 95064
Paulo R. Guimarães
dDepartamento de Ecologia, Universidade de São Paulo, CEP 05508-090, São Paulo, SP, Brazil;
Thilo Gross
eDepartment of Engineering and Mathematics, University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1UB, United Kingdom;fMax Planck Institute for the Dynamics of Complex Systems, D-01187 Dresden, Germany;

  1. Edited by Justin S. Brashares, University of California, Berkeley, CA, and accepted by the Editorial Board August 11, 2014 (received for review May 8, 2014)

...................

The above  article from Proceedings of the  National Academy of Sciences of the USA (PNAS)
has nothing to do with language  but rather  discusses environmental change  in Egypt. The massive loss of a wide range
of the animal species is the focus, with various arguments  made about the cause. I am not sure that the second part of the
 article flows logically from the first. Also the link between the desiccation of Egypt and  Ethiopia's Lake Tana
is inadequately addressed, in my view, given the fact that 85% of the Nile waters derived from Ethiopia, and
 that some  of the periods of drought, in the region of Lake Tana  and the  Blue Nile,  seem to correlate with periodic
 desiccation in Egypt. One interesting thesis put forward by the author is that the ancient Egyptian state  may have emerged
 to cope with this environmental  phenomenon when it started.

In this era of massive loss of  species of birds and bees, it certainly does not hurt to pay attention to how
the ancient northeast Africans coped with species extinction and the loss of their elephants, giraffes, indigenous camels,
short maned/ long maned lions, hyenas and wildebeest. But how was Egypt  still able to supply
 Rome with animals for  gladiatorial exhibitions during the era of Roman occupation?  Did these animals all come from
Nubia and environs  by that time?

In any case the article is useful - especially to those of us who earn a living from studying and teaching 
 ancient northeast Africa to curious intelligent minds.




Gloria Emeagwali

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CA%2B7wu%3DZSnYCRRm--6dPE3Ln4AUN71rYL2hdq_uP6ZFGQAWuJnA%40mail.gmail.com.

Moses Ebe Ochonu

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Sep 28, 2019, 9:35:30 AM9/28/19
to USAAfricaDialogue
It would seem that this linguistic effort to connect sub-Saharan Africa to ancient Egypt is part of the broader Afrocentric scholarship to center ancient Egypt (and broadly the Nile River Valley) as THE origin of ALL African civilizations. But why this obsession with showing Ancient Egypt to not only be a black civilization but also the cradle of civilization in all of Africa? Do these scholars not see the apparent Nilocentrism (the claim that civilization in Africa began in the Nile valley and that the Nile Valley civilizations are the origins of all African civilizations) of their thesis? And do they not see that their Nilocentric hypotheses are dangerously close to the racist Hamitic myth that was developed and instrumentalized by Arabs and Europeans to subjugate, devalue, and enslave Africans? When Diop embarked upon this scholarly adventure, there was a political, polemical, and even epistemological need for it. Now, as paradigms of polygenesis (multiple origins and beginnings) gain currency in the academy, this type of forced, sometimes pedestrian search for a one origin is dated and passe. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAMkN8apPmd%3Do6hj%3DAPS1tPTuYk4F3xVO1arJZafm2ZDZh-JKKw%40mail.gmail.com.

Moses Ebe Ochonu

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Sep 28, 2019, 11:16:32 AM9/28/19
to USAAfricaDialogue
CORRECTED

It would seem that this linguistic effort to connect sub-Saharan Africa to ancient Egypt is part of the broader Afrocentric scholarship that tries to center ancient Egypt (and broadly the Nile River Valley) as THE origin of ALL African civilizations. But why this obsession with showing Ancient Egypt to not only be a black civilization but also the cradle of civilization in all of Africa? Do these scholars not see the apparent Nilocentrism (the claim that civilization in Africa began in the Nile valley and that the Nile Valley civilizations are the origins of all African civilizations) of their thesis? And do they not see that their Nilocentric hypotheses are dangerously close to the racist Hamitic myth that was developed and instrumentalized by Arabs and Europeans to subjugate, devalue, and enslave Africans? When Diop embarked upon this scholarly adventure, there was a political, polemical, and even epistemological need for it. Now, as paradigms of polygenesis (multiple origins and beginnings) gain currency in the academy, this type of forced, sometimes pedestrian search for a single civilizational origin/source is dated and passe. 

O O

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Sep 28, 2019, 4:16:26 PM9/28/19
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
This unproductive chronic obsession with “proving” fundamental connections with “ancient Egypt” smacks of inferiority complex (IC). Please direct or refocus your vast intellectual energies toward developing our undeveloped or underdeveloped infrastructure: transportation and communications systems, water and power lines, public institutions, especially schools, post offices, and prisons. These nostalgic efforts continue to zap or sap or warp our agendas to advance our cultures.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 28, 2019, at 8:35 AM, Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Sep 28, 2019, 4:16:39 PM9/28/19
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com

Reply to Evans and Bar-Oz et al.: Recovering ecological pattern and process in Ancient Egypt

Justin D. Yeakel, Mathias M. Pires, Lars Rudolf, Nathaniel J. Dominy, Paul L. Koch, Paulo R. Guimarães Jr., and Thilo Gross
PNAS January 20, 2015 112 (3) E240; first published January 13, 2015 https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1422646112


That article about the environment set off a round of debates that scholars of
ancient Africa  and environmental history may find useful.



Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department, Central Connecticut State University
www.africahistory.net
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries
2014 Distinguished Research Excellence Award in African Studies
 University of Texas at Austin
2019   Distinguished Africanist Award                   
New York African Studies Association
 


From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Moses Ebe Ochonu <meoc...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 10:24 AM
To: USAAfricaDialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the context of African Languages
 

Please be cautious: **External Email**

CORRECTED

Biko Agozino

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Sep 29, 2019, 5:09:58 AM9/29/19
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Attention to ancient Egypt is not obsessive and cannot be overemphasized. Scholars use the documented evidence to explore hypotheses. It does not mean that other African cultures never existed prior to Kemet. On the contrary, there is evidence that Kemet was built by different cultures in Africa uniting to tackle the common problem of the flooding of the Nile. Any culture that has as much documented pieces of evidence in writing and in artifacts that go farther back than any other culture in the world deserves all the attention from scholars. A lot of the attention is actually attempting  to prove that Black Africans did not build Kemet but the evidence is on the side of Afrocentricity. There is no inferiority or superiority complex here, just the historical facts to be interpreted according to your research interests. If Kemet was a European culture, do you think that their scholars will allow anybody to drink water and drop cup? No, they go dey do shakala whereas Africans are rather subdued and humble in celebrating the achievements of Kemet probably because the colonizers have implanted the parapo mentality among our scholars who would not celebrate anything unless it comes from their own village. Egyptologists are mostly Europeans for that reason.

Biko

O O

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Sep 29, 2019, 6:58:38 PM9/29/19
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com

This unproductive chronic obsession with “proving” fundamental connections with “ancient Egypt” smacks of inferiority complex (IC). Please direct or refocus your vast intellectual energies toward developing our undeveloped or underdeveloped infrastructure: transportation and communications systems, water and power lines, public institutions, especially schools, post offices, and prisons. These nostalgic efforts continue to zap or sap or warp our agendas to advance our cultures.

Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Sep 30, 2019, 2:32:17 AM9/30/19
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Is this an automated  replication of the previous message received around
4.16p on Saturday? Is "OO a robot?


Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department, Central Connecticut State University
 


From: 'O O' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2019 5:32 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the context of African Languages
 

Please be cautious: **External Email**


OLAYINKA AGBETUYI

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Sep 30, 2019, 11:06:27 AM9/30/19
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Oga Afolayan.

I beg to differ.  It is the stock in trade of academics and intellectuals to split hairs either substantively or just for the heck if it.

There are also those of us who like to teach Egyotian history out of choice and preference.

Contrary to your assumption preoccupation with Egyptology rather than being a symptom of inferiority complex may serve to deconstruct ancient Egypt ans its assumed superiority complex in relation ti other African civilisations as this exciting discussions begin to clarify.

I refer you to my response to Oga Salau in due course.

If course this dies not preclude discussing contemporary developmental issues.

OAA.



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------

Chambi Chachage

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Sep 30, 2019, 11:21:45 AM9/30/19
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If Europe has/had Greece and Rome to draw from, Asia has/had China and India, why shouldn't Africa have Egypt/Kemet and Nubia/Axum?

Cf. 

“When you read any scientific book, by the Western scientists especially, terms used to name certain objects or elements refer to ancient Latin or Greek; the Indian scientists sometime refer their concepts to ancient Sanskrit. Those who studied some African languages found that many basic words have ancient KMTian [Kemet-ian] roots. For purpose of unity in the African research, through African languages, why not make the study of the Ancient Egyptian necessary? This would also enhance the development of African languages. We saw that in terms of social philosophy, solidarity is the mark of African traditional cultures. Despite the pressure of peripheral capitalism on societies, the extended family is not disappearing. Expectations for social happiness, for a sacred leadership above corruption, above the desire to accumulate and promotes sharing, which is against lies and mediocrity are still alive in our societies. One has just to go through the African proverbs to be convinced of this. To some extent, we may say that there are still remnants of the KMT social paradigm. Why not formalize this as part of the basic compass in our African societies?The foundation of African scientific research is still based on a philosophy of returning to the Western sources, not having our own sources and borrowing and learning from other sources as well as other people do. Did Plato go to Greece to look for data and go to Egypt to write his thesis? He studied and learned what he could and went back home and wrote in his language. We find it difficult to do the same because we have neglected our languages and have adopted other people’s languages and call them ‘languages of culture’ as if ours are culturally barren...I have been involved in the translation of Ancient Egyptian texts into African languages and I have been finding those texts very enlightening and awakening. Some of them touch on crucial issues we have been struggling with: spirituality, morality, leadership, unity, solidarity, etc.”” - Ernest Wamba dia Wamba

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/VI1PR04MB44934D7B968D342A3B0ADB86A6820%40VI1PR04MB4493.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com.

Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

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Sep 30, 2019, 3:29:09 PM9/30/19
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Anthropologists, sociologists, writers, scholars of languages and literatures, palaeontologists, archaeologists and historians do not build dams and bridges. Speaking as a historian, though, I can assure you that we can tell you what infrastructural projects worked, and what failed, and the socio -economic and cultural consequences of
both scenarios.
The Giza pyramid was the tallest building in the world from the time it was constructed in approximately 2500 BC to the 13th century AD/CE. Is there nothing to be learnt from this engineering masterpiece? What about the structures that failed? Shouldn’t we learn from those as well? Should we not
examine the coping strategies of the Egyptians in an era of creeping desiccation today, and learn from their failures and successes at conservation.All of this can be done in the context of cross- regional African Indigenous Studies. We can walk and chew kola nut at the same time.



Professor Gloria Emeagwali
Prof. of History/African Studies
________________________________
From: 'O O' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2019 5:32:03 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the context of African Languages

Please be cautious: **External Email**

This unproductive chronic obsession with “proving” fundamental connections with “ancient Egypt” smacks of inferiority complex (IC). Please direct or refocus your vast intellectual energies toward developing our undeveloped or underdeveloped infrastructure: transportation and communications systems, water and power lines, public institutions, especially schools, post offices, and prisons. These nostalgic efforts continue to zap or sap or warp our agendas to advance our cultures.


On Sep 28, 2019, at 3:00 AM, Abdul Salau <salau...@gmail.com> wrote:


Farooq
check out this sound correspondences between Ancient Egyptian and Yoruba. Please let us remain on rational basis not personal and emotional basis. What you think of me is your opinion (doxa in Greek). What is important is what facts or reasons (logos in Greek)do you have to corroborate your assertion that there is a no relationship between Modern African languages and Ancient Egyptian. I will be waiting to get facts from you which affirms your point of view.

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 2:32 PM Farooq A. Kperogi <farooq...@gmail.com<mailto:farooq...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Abdul Salau has missed his calling in comedy😀. This isn't meant as a put-down. You are genuinely funny. So you can divine whether or not I have read a book I cited from the comfort of your room? LOL!

Your comedic side was on full display in this YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXl70_VVz9M<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DOXl70_VVz9M&data=01%7C01%7Cemeagwali%40ccsu.edu%7C8ede61961285477ea46c08d74530905e%7C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6%7C0&sdata=0%2FzwSbNHHRpT8MHB611misC5mNoYsNu7r6EpdzvEb9k%3D&reserved=0> where you strained so hard to make the case that contemporary Nigerians migrated from southern Sudan to their present locations and displaced/mixed with the "aboriginal" population who used to be really "short." And what is the evidence for this claim? That the names of certain towns in Nigeria (such as Lokoja, Nok, Uduk, etc.) correspond with the names of certain ethnic groups in South Sudan!!! Maybe Japan is African, too, since most Japanese names sound African. In fact, Obama is also the name of a town in Japan.

If I knew you were one of these "pan-Africanist" scholars who are devoted to making wild, feel-good, evidence-free, unsupportable claims about Africa and who are obsessed with "proving" the "blackness" of Egypt as if their lives and self-worth depend on it, I frankly wouldn't have engaged you. I steer clear of such people.

Farooq







On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 8:08 AM Abdul Salau <salau...@gmail.com<mailto:salau...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Farooq
You did not read the book. To get elementary knowledge on the development of Ancient Egyptian and modern African languages. You don't have expert knowledge on this matter. I cannot argue with you all I can do is to tell to update your knowledge.
The book highlights how two African linguists and Egyptologists Cheikh Anta Diop and Theophile Obenga in a proceeding of only Egyptologists Diop and Obenga debunked the theory that Ancient Egyptian language is Semitic and in the Afroasiatic language family. I am working in the field and have capabilities to interrogate these issues critically. If you have the humility to open the book you will be entertained and you will be pleasantly informed. These two scholars deserve their works to be critical evaluated. Judging a book without interrogation iis anti intellectual and fraudulent. Yoruba proverb says that when we are crying we can see. You are laughing, and I am hoping you can see also when you are laughing.

After the conference many news books have been published by Obenga and Diop.
A peer reviewed journal Ankh is online and Cheikh Anta Diop University.in Senegal now offers a degree in Egyptology based.. All these developments are the fruits of the 1974 UNESCO conference.






On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 9:37 PM Farooq A. Kperogi <farooq...@gmail.com<mailto:farooq...@gmail.com>> wrote:
So a book of proceedings in French from a 1974 UNESCO conference is the "new development in African linguistics" that trumps all the research that has been done by well-regarded linguists on the ancient Egyptian language? Ha!

The closest living language to the ancient Egyptian language is Coptic (see James Allen’s The Ancient Egyptian Language: An Historical Study, Cambridge University Press, 2013), vestiges of which are still spoken as a liturgical language in modern Egypt. It's an Afro-Asiatic language. I don't know how an Afro-Asiatic language can be related to all modern African languages. You don't even have to have the faintest familiarity with historical linguistics to know that this is a laughably unsupportable, not to mention unscientific, claim.

Farooq


Farooq A. Kperogi, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Journalism & Emerging Media
School of Communication & Media
Social Science Building
Room 5092 MD 2207
402 Bartow Avenue
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw, Georgia, USA 30144
Cell: (+1) 404-573-9697
Personal website: www.farooqkperogi.com<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.farooqkperogi.blogspot.com&data=01%7C01%7Cemeagwali%40ccsu.edu%7C8ede61961285477ea46c08d74530905e%7C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6%7C0&sdata=b6CVqZi0PGGwBnBFcBfRDoZAyHowJo4D%2FTTZcFpj7xw%3D&reserved=0>
Twitter: @farooqkperog<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2F%23%2521%2Ffarooqkperogi&data=01%7C01%7Cemeagwali%40ccsu.edu%7C8ede61961285477ea46c08d74530905e%7C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6%7C0&sdata=nBANkdHTURRU1MruF6z7PHfk0TWYASwvIJTiElkp0tk%3D&reserved=0>i
Author of Glocal English: The Changing Face and Forms of Nigerian English in a Global World<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FGlocal-English-Changing-Linguistics-Semiotics%2Fdp%2F1433129264%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fs%3Dbooks%26ie%3DUTF8%26qid%3D1436569864%26sr%3D1-1&data=01%7C01%7Cemeagwali%40ccsu.edu%7C8ede61961285477ea46c08d74530905e%7C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6%7C0&sdata=RHQxtJ14xXCcrQtWwnzLEPKPbEC28gw5uQC02HudGLs%3D&reserved=0>

"The nice thing about pessimism is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." G. F. Will


On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 7:28 AM Abdul Salau <salau...@gmail.com<mailto:salau...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Farooq you need to acquaint yourself to the new developments in African linguistics. There has been improvements in the African language family classification made by Joseph Greenberg. The weakness of
Greenberg African language family was based on typologies , and the new African language family is based on sound correspondences consistent with historical linguistics principles.
You cannot reject what you don't know. The new language family was developed after UNESCO Conference in 1974, which examined the relationship of African languages to Ancient Egyptian language.
I can give you more information if you have humility to admit you don't know. The literature is in French and is not familiar to scholars working with English language. You are rejecting the thesis without examining facts and I am not sure you have any knowledge of Ancient Egyptian language.

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 6:51 AM Farooq A. Kperogi <farooq...@gmail.com<mailto:farooq...@gmail.com>> wrote:
There's not the remotest scientific evidence to support the claim that "all modern African languages are related to ancient Egyptian." That is, in fact, implausible since African languages evince vast linguistic diversity and belong to different families.

There are broadly four language families that are indigenous to modern Africa: Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, Afro-Asiatic, and the so-called click languages (also called Khoisan) of southern Africa. There are also many unclassifiable language isolates in many parts of the continent.

The vast majority of languages in the continent belong to the Niger-Congo family. More than 70 percent of languages in west, central, and eastern Africa are Niger-Congo languages.

The Semitic languages of Ethiopia and the Middle East and languages in the Berber cluster all belong to the Afro-Asiatic language family. Hausa, Babur, Tangale, Bade, Kamwe, Ngas, etc. in northern Nigeria are members of the Chadic subphylum of the Afro-Asiatic family. Kanuri and Luo are prominent examples of Nilo-Saharan languages.

It's linguistically untenable for languages in Africa's divergent families to all be related to "ancient Egyptian."

Farooq



Personal website: www.farooqkperogi.com<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.farooqkperogi.com&data=01%7C01%7Cemeagwali%40ccsu.edu%7C8ede61961285477ea46c08d74530905e%7C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6%7C0&sdata=bw82qMTvLdvK8lETVXmbFxYhVuqgrCmcb8zUxIDeSf4%3D&reserved=0>
Twitter: @farooqkperogi


Sent from my phone. Please forgive typos and omissions.

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 6:33 PM Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>> wrote:
doesn't this depend on what we mean by a language family? i thought that linguists were in agreement of where language got started, east africa.
how it branched out, dispersed, developed into separate languages, resulting in...?...different families doesn't belie the claim that it, like humans, had one region when it developed.
ken

kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
517 803-8839
har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com> <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>> on behalf of Abdul Salau <salau...@gmail.com<mailto:salau...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 8:53 AM
To: toyin <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian in the context of African Languages

All modern African languages are related to Ancient Egyptian they all belong to one language family.

Khoi_San relationship to Ancient Egyptian needs further study.

Berber belongs to another language family.

Semitic languages belongs to another language family.

See Obenga African language family and book

See Cheikh anta diop book
Common Origin of Ancient Egyptian and Modern African languages.



On Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 8:18 PM Gloria Emeagwali <gloria.e...@gmail.com<mailto:gloria.e...@gmail.com>> wrote:
So what are the closest genetically related African languages, to ancient Egyptian? Chadic languages?

GE




On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 6:27 PM Abdul Salau <salau...@gmail.com<mailto:salau...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Languages captures specific fauna and faura. Semitic languages are not related to Ancient Egyptian and modern African languages using sound correspondences. That is the outcome of the UNESCO conference in 1974. The Egyptian Grammar used to study Ancient Egyptian language Gardiner concludes that until the relationship between Ancient Egyptian and African languages is established semitic languages are not related to Ancient Egyptian language.

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:52 PM 'Biko Agozino' via USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
Since human life originated in Africa, the linguistic hypothesis that language also originated in Africa and then spread from there to the extent that all languages are linked to an African mother tongue:

African Origin of the Worlds Languages<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DhmTqKRM7eH0%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DnE__W8dFE-shTxStwXtp0A%26r%3DZy8I_UX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg%26m%3DpjxW7T74NnZRSjh3mvp2ZjjkAGCjig8t0eG0aKBiqLk%26s%3DIuT3Pd55ySECT11nNfAkCVpT-jXK-qKIkBUHABheu7o%26e%3D&data=01%7C01%7Cemeagwali%40ccsu.edu%7C8ede61961285477ea46c08d74530905e%7C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6%7C0&sdata=7dypcernhyrlbq1rFgNz4WEhQ81JkYFbLe5XVns6w4I%3D&reserved=0>

<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3DhmTqKRM7eH0%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3DnE__W8dFE-shTxStwXtp0A%26r%3DZy8I_UX8z9DLbmf5YJ0EIg%26m%3DpjxW7T74NnZRSjh3mvp2ZjjkAGCjig8t0eG0aKBiqLk%26s%3DIuT3Pd55ySECT11nNfAkCVpT-jXK-qKIkBUHABheu7o%26e%3D&data=01%7C01%7Cemeagwali%40ccsu.edu%7C8ede61961285477ea46c08d74530905e%7C2329c570b5804223803b427d800e81b6%7C0&sdata=7dypcernhyrlbq1rFgNz4WEhQ81JkYFbLe5XVns6w4I%3D&reserved=0>
[https://s.yimg.com/nq/storm/assets/enhancrV2/23/logos/youtube.png]
African Origin of the Worlds Languages
This is a video about the Origin of World's languages in Africa. References: M. Cysouw, D. Dediu, S. Moran.2012)...



Biko
On Monday, 23 September 2019, 11:16:56 GMT-4, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emea...@ccsu.edu<mailto:emea...@ccsu.edu>> wrote:


Are the West Asian Semitic languages offshoots of African
languages - given the fact that apparently all Semitic languages
but two are indigenous to Africa.

I hope Professor Bekerie of Mekelle University, Ethiopia, and other experts in this area of research, can shed light on this issue.



Professor Gloria Emeagwali
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