Re: INTELLECTUAL FORUM‹Disorder at Home, Excellence Abroad?

[Michael Vickers]

Ayo,  A lively discussion with BRIGHT BEAMS* from several directions. What Richard/ Kola/ Obadiah/ Hassan/ Shehu and others have done, is to provide valuable comment and perceptions of extending directions; all this in terms of multi-dimensions and varying depths; these coming from experienced observers/ active participants. What they and we are providing is what this List of yours is all about. And for this I, and I am sure all other contributors to this List, are most grateful. 

What we all need to bear in mind is that this is an intellectual forum. Insofar as there is the "crash bang" of political contention of varying intensity that may enter the discussion; might one simply observe/ suggest—moi meme aussi—that the larger/ determining issues relating to principles/ beliefs/ attitudes and actual/ hypothesised frameworks and applicable structures; these are what it is vital we keep our attention focused on. As for the "crash bang" of specific instances—larger or smaller—of political contention; these are for exemplification only. 

If I might also note and support comment stressing the "living realities" operative in, say, the US and UK; and the same "living realities" operative in Nigeria; we know what this means for the basics of life—food/ housing/ education/ living conditions—as they apply generally to folk in these countries. We know that the 98er in US and UK does relatively well; while the 98er in Nigeria does very badly. 

In relation to the Inner Life, we know that the ordinary American/ less so the ordinary Brit, has largely lost his bearings/ life has become a stress-filled continuity, moving at pace from one crisis to the next. In contrast, the ordinary Nigeria person possesses base values and contacts that enable/ ensure, even in the most dire of circumstances, a draw on the values of communal support and common engagement; these providing a root stability largely absent in the life of the ordinary American and/ or Brit. 

If things are to be advantageously discussed/ at whatever level of intensity in this List; it is surely essential we do try hard to keep our focus at the higher level. The views of politicians are, in my view, always welcome. But each in his place. And the politician's place is of course "exemplification." And through his contribution, hopefully useful illumination of the larger/ determining issues relating to principle/ value/ framework and structure. 

Best,  Baba m 

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• Many of the Issues and Principles discussed in this LIST/ Forum, are subject to consideration in my recent, BRIGHT BEAMS IN DARK SHADOW: PERSPECTIVES ON LIGHT EMERGENT, from Pan-African University Press/ Amazon. 

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From: Prof Ayo OLUKOTUN <ayo_ol...@yahoo.com>
Date: Sunday, 2 July 2017 14:36
To: Prof Ayo OLUKOTUN <ayo_ol...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Prof Toyin FALOLA <toyin...@austin.utexas.edu>, USA-AFRICA dialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>, Prof Richard JOSEPH <r-jo...@northwestern.edu>, Bolaji Akinyemi <rot...@gmail.com>, <adigun...@yahoo.com>, Attahiru Jega <attahi...@yahoo.com>, Ariyo Andrew Tobi <tob...@yahoo.co.uk>, Oluwayomi D ATTE <david...@yahoo.com>, "Dr O.A. DOSUMU" <to...@yahoo.com>, Prof Jide Owoeye <babso...@gmail.com>, Bunmi Ayoade <maxima...@gmail.com>, Bolaji Ogunseye <eri...@yahoo.com>, Bunmi Makinwa <bunmim...@hotmail.com>, Bunmi Makinwa <bunmim...@hotmail.com>, Femi Babatunde <ofemiba...@yahoo.com>, Prof Bayo ADEKANYE <profbayo...@yahoo.com>, Insa NOLTE <M.I....@bham.ac.uk>, bode fasakin <bodef...@yahoo.co.uk>, Prof Tunde BABAWALE <tunde_b...@yahoo.com>, Kole Omotoso <bankole...@gmail.com>, Dr Banji OYEYINKA <boye...@hotmail.com>, Insa NOLTE <M.I....@bham.ac.uk>, Prof Olufemi VAUGHAN <ovau...@bowdoin.edu>, Babs Sobanjo <babso...@yahoo.co.uk>, Tunji Olaopa <tolao...@gmail.com>, Orogun Olanike <dam...@yahoo.com>, Christian Ogbondah <chris.o...@uni.edu>, Femi Osofisan <okinba...@yahoo.com>, nathaniel danjibo <dan...@yahoo.com>, <cynthi...@gmail.com>, cyril obi <cyri...@hotmail.com>, Kayode Soremekun <paddyk...@yahoo.com>, Odia OFEIMUN <odi...@yahoo.com>, Tade Aina <tadeak...@yahoo.com>, "Gbenga Dr. Owojaiye" <gben...@hotmail.com>, Shehu Dikko <sheh...@gmail.com>, Dr Doyin AGUORU <doyina...@gmail.com>, Prof Oladipupo ADAMOLEKUN <dip...@yahoo.com>, Dele Layiwola <delela...@yahoo.com>, Dr Oluwajuyitan <ecj...@yahoo.com>, Ebunoluwa Oduwole <ebunodu...@yahoo.com>, "Prof Eghosa E. OSAGHAE" <osagha...@yahoo.co.uk>, "peter.kimani" <peter....@aku.edu>, Oluwaniyi Osundare <oosu...@uno.edu>, Prof Emeritus Pai Obanya <paio...@gmail.com>, Emmanuel Remi Aiyede <eai...@yahoo.com>, Stephen Bolaji <stephen...@cdu.edu.au>, "Vice-Chancellor, Redeemer's University" <v...@run.edu.ng>, Mr Edmund Obilo <eob...@gmail.com>, <egbemod...@yahoo.com>, Paul Nwulu <p.n...@fordfoundation.org>, Olufunke Adeboye <funks29...@yahoo.co.uk>, Olufunke Adeboye <funks29...@yahoo.co.uk>, Olayemi Foline Folorunsho <offlin...@gmail.com>, Innocent Chukwuma <innocent...@fordfoundation.org>, Innocent Chukwuma <innocent...@fordfoundation.org>, Prof Funmi Para-Mallam <ojpara...@gmail.com>, Francis Irele <abiol...@gmail.com>, <faw...@yahoo.com>, <f...@hyperia.com>, Prof Ogunmola Ogunmola <gbogu...@gmail.com>, "Prof. Lere Amusan" <lerea...@gmail.com>, Lanre Idowu <lanre...@gmail.com>, Dr Olajumoke YACOB-HALISO <jum...@gmail.com>, Alaba OGUNSANWO <alabaog...@gmail.com>, Noel Ihebuzor <noel.i...@gmail.com>, Niyi Akinnaso <niyi...@gmail.com>, "hassans...@gmail.com" <hassans...@gmail.com>, "hassans...@gmail.com" <hassans...@gmail.com>, Toks Olaoluwa <olaoluwa...@gmail.com>, "Gbenga Dr. Owojaiye" <gben...@hotmail.com>, Obadiah Mailafia <obmai...@gmail.com>, <gbogu...@yahoo.com>, Obadiah Mailafia <obmai...@gmail.com>, Prof I Olawole ALBERT <ioalbe...@yahoo.com>, Ibini Olaide <ibini_...@yahoo.com>, Ibrahim Gambari <ibrahim...@gmail.com>, Hafsat Abiola <hafsat...@hotmail.com>, <adeb...@hotmail.com>, Prof Taiwo OWOEYE <siste...@hotmail.com>, Mohammed Haruna <ndaj...@gmail.com>, Mukhtar Bunza <mbu...@hotmail.com>, adele jinadu <laji...@yahoo.com>, Prof Wale ADEBANWI <walead...@gmail.com>, Saburi Adesanya <jade...@yahoo.co.uk>, Adebayo Olukoshi <oluk...@gmail.com>, Christina Olaoluwa <tina...@yahoo.com>, "Dr.Remi SONAIYA" <remis...@yahoo.com>, <rotimi...@yahoo.com>, alade rotimi-john <rotimijohn...@gmail.com>, rebecca adugbe <omoa...@gmail.com>, Ronke Ako-nai <riak...@yahoo.com>, <tale...@yahoo.com>, T Oyedeji <tumo...@gmail.com>, Nkoyo Toyo <nkoy...@gmail.com>, Tiwa <tiwaol...@yahoo.com>, "Prof T. Ademola Oyejide" <oyejid...@gmail.com>, "S.O. UWAIFO" <so_u...@yahoo.co.uk>, Ayobami Salami <ayoba...@yahoo.com>, Nimi Wariboko <nimi...@msn.com>, Warisu Oyesina Alli <all...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Wale A.Olaitan" <anu...@yahoo.com>, Dr Wale Babalakin <bobab...@aol.com>, Yomi Layinka <you...@yahoo.co.uk>, Attahiru Jega <attahi...@yahoo.com>, Michael VICKERS <mvic...@mvickers.plus.com>, <v...@abuad.edu.ng>, Vice-Chancellor <v...@futa.edu.ng>, <vadefemi...@gmail.com>, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin....@gmail.com>, Akinjide OSUNTOKUN <josun...@yahoo.com>, Prof Emeritus Pai Obanya <paio...@gmail.com>, Prof Osinbajo <yemios...@yahoo.com>, "Prof. Adeola Adenikinju" <adeolaad...@yahoo.com>, Prof Dipo Kolawole <profko...@yahoo.com>, "Prof. Omolara Ogundipe" <mol...@gmail.com>, Prof Mohammed ABDULKADIR <msa...@gmail.com>, Kolaawodein <kolaa...@kolaawodeinandco.com>, Chief Femi Fani Kayode <ffk...@aol.com>, Femi Adesina <kuli...@yahoo.com>, Kolade Mosuro <kmo...@aol.com>, bukky dada <bukk...@hotmail.com>, Michael VICKERS <mvic...@mvickers.plus.com>, mimikofemi <mimik...@yahoo.com>, <moju...@gmail.com>, Akin Maboogunje <akin...@gmail.com>, Mr Felix Adenaike <felixa...@yahoo.com>, Michael Adeyeye <madeye...@yahoo.com>, Margaret Ayansola <mdaya...@gmail.com>, Chibuzo NWOKE <chibuz...@yahoo.com>, Bayo Okunade <bayoo...@gmail.com>
Subject: Fw: Disorder at Home, Excellence Abroad?

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From: Kolaawodein <kolaa...@kolaawodeinandco.com> Sent: Saturday, 1 July 2017 20:26 To: ayo_ol...@yahoo.com Cc: toyin...@austin.utexas.edu; USAAfricaDialogue; Prof. Akinjide Osuntokun; Michael Vickers; paddyk...@yahoo.com; Prof Wale ADEBANWI; Prof. W. A. Fawole; Prof Osinbajo; Prof. Adeola Adenikinju; Awolowo Foundation; anu...@yahoo.com; Femi Babatunde; banji oyeyinka; Babs Sobanjo; bukky dada; Tunji Olaopa; Bunmi Ayoade; Dele Layiwola; John Downing; Bolaji Ogunseye; f...@hyperia.com; Femi Falana; friday Okonofua; Chief Femi Fani Kayode; Michael Faborode; lai...@ymail.com; Vice-Chancellor, Redeemer's University; Obadiah Mailafia; rotimi...@yahoo.com; Royal Gardens; rem...@yahoo.com; sato...@yahoo.com; Dr Wale Babalakin Subject: Re: Disorder at Home, Excellence Abroad?

I believe Ayo , that you clearly expect a robust debate and interrogation of issues raised in your column from time to time.... 

In my humble opinion both Shehu's  and Hassan's interventions admirably at least fulfill that expectation... 

My sense of their contributions does not    suggest to me that they were seriously contending that we have absolutely nothing to celebrate....... I understand them more to be stating that perhaps there is little not much to celebrate rather than really NOTHING to celebrate... Perhaps a classic case of a Cup half empty than Half full....

If however I am wrong,  I would argue that they cannot be right at all....

Even with our undoubted challenges we have quite a bit to celebrate and celebrate we must in order to encourage ourselves and strive to reach our highest potential.....

When we consistently knock ourselves down even when we should lift ourselves up we do a great disservice to so many of our compatriots and this is as unfair , and self destructive as it can ever get. 

It can never serve us well and like Ayo I cannot in good conscience sign in on that too...

Kola Awodein

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On 30 Jun 2017, at 8:17 PM, ayo_ol...@yahoo.com wrote:

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: ayo_ol...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, 30 June 2017 16:34 To: Hassan Saliu; Obadiah Mailafia Cc: bode fasakin; Oluwafisayo Ige; Nimi Wariboko; Ibini Olaide; Bunmi Ayoade; DOYIN AGUORU; Segun Gbadegesin; adigun...@yahoo.com; Prof Funmi Para-Mallam; Ronke Ako-nai; Prof Ogunmola Ogunmola; Bunmi Makinwa; peter.kimani; Orogun Olanike; Bolaji Ogunseye; tunde babawale; Olajumoke Yacob-Haliso; Kole Omotoso; mimikofemi; Femi Babatunde; Paul Nwulu; Nkoyo Toyo; Prof Bayo Adekanye; rotimi...@yahoo.com; Innocent Chukwuma; Stephen Bolaji; egbemod...@yahoo.com; Ladi Adamolekun; Francis Irele; Ayobami Salami; cyril obi; Prof Emeritus Pai Obanya; Niyi Akinnaso; Oluwaniyi Osundare; Olayemi Foline Folorunsho; Kayode Soremekun; Isaac Albert; Mojúbàolú Olúfúnké Okome; Osaghae Eghosa; nathaniel danjibo; Ebunoluwa Oduwole; Prof Dipo Kolawole; Saburi Adesanya; oye...@isgpp.com.ng; Olufunke Adeboye; Mideno Bayagbon; Christian Ogbondah; Mohammed Haruna; Bolaji Akinyemi; Toks Olaoluwa; T Oyedeji; Odia Ofeimun; Gbenga Dr. Owojaiye; Jinmi Adisa; Warisu Oyesina Alli; Dr Oluwajuyitan; Christina Olaoluwa; Toyin Falola; adele jinadu; hafsat...@hotmail.com; alade rotimi-john; Solomon Uwaifo; Mr Edmund Obilo; Attahiru Jega; david atte; adeb...@hotmail.com; rebecca adugbe; cynthi...@gmail.com; M Insa Nolte; Lanre Idowu; Taiwo Owoeye; Yomi LAYIINKA; Olufemi Vaughan; Remi Sonaiya; Alaba Ogunsanwo; Prof(Egbon) Jide Owoeye; Tade Aina; Noel Ihebuzor; Femi Osofisan; Tunde Oseni; Abiodun Salawu; Emmanuel Remi Aiyede; Richard A Joseph; Prof. Lere Amusan; chibuzo nwoke; Ariyo Andrew Tobi; Shehu Dikko Subject: Re: Disorder at Home, Excellence Abroad?

Thanks for your take. A colleague noted recently that there are meeting points between radical Afropessimists and radical colonialists: both espouse that Africa has nothing to offer. Donald Trump will be applauding, after reading your essay.                2 So, it's all happening over there! Nothing to celebrate here. Facebook founder did not think so, neither do I.                                            3 Do you expect that our democracy will become accomplished in a few years, if after 200 years the Americans are still working at theirs?                                                            4. A scholar sits here and produces papers for top flight journals around the globe. Must he become a British citizen before we begin to notice him?                                                       Nothing to celebrate? I refuse to sign in on that one.                                                                                 Prof Ayo Olukotun

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From: Hassan Saliu Sent: Friday, 30 June 2017 11:44 To: Obadiah Mailafia Cc: bode fasakin; Oluwafisayo Ige; Nimi Wariboko; Ibini Olaide; Bunmi Ayoade; DOYIN AGUORU; Segun Gbadegesin; adigun...@yahoo.com; Prof Funmi Para-Mallam; Ronke Ako-nai; Prof Ogunmola Ogunmola; Bunmi Makinwa; peter.kimani; Orogun Olanike; Bolaji Ogunseye; tunde babawale; Olajumoke Yacob-Haliso; Kole Omotoso; mimikofemi; Femi Babatunde; Paul Nwulu; Nkoyo Toyo; Prof Bayo Adekanye; rotimi...@yahoo.com; Innocent Chukwuma; Stephen Bolaji; egbemod...@yahoo.com; Ladi Adamolekun; Francis Irele; Ayobami Salami; cyril obi; Prof Emeritus Pai Obanya; Niyi Akinnaso; Oluwaniyi Osundare; Olayemi Foline Folorunsho; Kayode Soremekun; Prof Ayo OLUKOTUN; Isaac Albert; Mojúbàolú Olúfúnké Okome; Osaghae Eghosa; nathaniel danjibo; Ebunoluwa Oduwole; Prof Dipo Kolawole; Saburi Adesanya; oye...@isgpp.com.ng; Olufunke Adeboye; Mideno Bayagbon; Christian Ogbondah; Mohammed Haruna; Bolaji Akinyemi; Toks Olaoluwa; T Oyedeji; Odia Ofeimun; Gbenga Dr. Owojaiye; Jinmi Adisa; Warisu Oyesina Alli; Dr Oluwajuyitan; Christina Olaoluwa; Toyin Falola; adele jinadu; hafsat...@hotmail.com; alade rotimi-john; Solomon Uwaifo; Mr Edmund Obilo; Attahiru Jega; david atte; adeb...@hotmail.com; rebecca adugbe; cynthi...@gmail.com; M Insa Nolte; Lanre Idowu; Taiwo Owoeye; Yomi LAYIINKA; Olufemi Vaughan; Remi Sonaiya; Alaba Ogunsanwo; Prof(Egbon) Jide Owoeye; Tade Aina; Noel Ihebuzor; Femi Osofisan; Tunde Oseni; Abiodun Salawu; Emmanuel Remi Aiyede; Richard A Joseph; Prof. Lere Amusan; chibuzo nwoke; Ariyo Andrew Tobi; Shehu Dikko Subject: Re: Disorder at Home, Excellence Abroad?

With Sheu's intervention, the title of my paper that I presented at a conference in Ife last year still stands: Ugly at home and bad abroad. We surely need to do more to catch up with the rest of the world. The searchlight should be on the pathways, not celebrating  episodic achievements.

On Jun 30, 2017 12:16, "Obadiah Mailafia" <obmai...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well said, thank you Shehu.

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Shehu Dikko <sheh...@gmail.com> wrote:

* Ayo Olukotun [20170629 15:01:18]:
> DISORDER AT HOME, EXCELLENCE ABROAD?

This is interesting.

Some comments:

1.0: Can a Nigerian stand as a candidate for election into the British
parliament? No. Can a Nigerian footballer play for England? No. So how
can some Nigerians be seen as players in those two fields? I do not see
how they can be. They may have their origins in Nigeria but those
winners are not Nigerians nor should they be celebrated as such. They
are British and they achieved what they achieved in Britain; in an
environment that made it possible for them to do so.

1.1: In Nigeria we have similar persons, Nigerians who have their
origins in other countries in Africa and beyond including in Britain.
Where are they in our assemblies and in our football teams? Nowhere. We
haven't achieved it. We have not created the environment that makes
similar achievements possible. We have nothing to celebrate.

1.2: Our current state is even much worse. Where is the Kanuri person in
the Abia State House of Assembly? Where is the Yoruba woman in the
Zamfara House? They are nowhere to be found. We have not created the
environment for them. We have nothing to celebrate.

1.3: What do we have to celebrate? Those winners now in the British
parliament are not there to serve the interest of Nigerians but the
interest of the British people who elected them. The Nigerian elected by
Nigerians to serve Nigerians is now resident in Britain where he is
ineligible to serve the British for he is not one of them nor could he
have been elected by them, especially not so as to speak to them in a
language they do not understand.

1.4: We are not ashamed to hear our present absent President try to
communicate with us through the British in a language that is one of
ours and not theirs but which their international mouthpiece, the BBC
World Service, has arguably done more than us to nurture. We might as
well do what? All move to Britain and win elections there? All move to
Britain and learn to speak Hausa there?

1.5: You mentioned David Cameron. Did he have a problem vacating the
office of Prime Minister for Theresa May? No, because they are members
of the same political party; they share a common ideology and their
interest is ultimately in service to their one and only country. Have we
achieved that here? What has stood in our way?

1.6: Cameron gave Scotland a choice to exit or to remain a part of the
United Kingdom. He urged it to remain. Scotland opted to remain. He
gladly welcomed its choice. Cameron gave the UK the choice of remaining
in the European Union or leaving it. He urged it to remain. The UK voted
to leave. He respected the choice the people made. He resigned
honourably. Have we seen comparable clarity here? We are spectacularly
what?

2.0: Are the domestic achievements you have listed worthy of
celebration? I am not sure that they are. They seem rather ordinary to
me.

2.1 In a message shared with a number of young persons recently which
was a follow-up to an old one about "future awards," in which one of
them had seen little of value in what the young award winners had done
to merit awards and after which I had advised him to save the list of
the winners and review it in another ten or twenty years or more, I
asked him whether, and how, he has saved the list. Then, after showing
why the popular view that "the internet never forgets" is baseless, I
wrote:

"Digital media has a shelf life. Diligent transfer of data from old to
new media is required to preserve content and this process is not
guaranteed to be flawless nor devoid of surprises.

"There is nothing to say that the internet itself may not one day be
forgotten having been long progressively replaced by other technologies
but the development of much better tools and much more reliable
processes hitherto not known to the world are challenges that Africans
never seem able to confront. Ours is to consume, including unfounded
popular views without much in the way of scrutiny. It may not be a bad
idea to think about future awards after landmark or pathbreaking
achievements since you care about awards."

Thank you very much and best regards,

shehu
--
Wagner's music is better than it sounds.
                -- Mark Twain