On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
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Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 25, 2018, 4:07:36 PM8/25/18
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, August 25, 2018
Subject: Re: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
To: Imperia Merchant <imperi...@yahoo.com>
Cc:
Imperial:
History does not lie. When for example, Tinubu prides himself as Jagaban Borgu, he has a sense of history. People forget that the Bariba people of Borgu Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bariba_people) once fought against the Yoruba of Oyo Empire, but at some later time assisted the Yoruba to fight against the Tapa of Nupe Kingdom (mainly in modern-day Niger State, but also Kwara North and Kogi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupe_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nupe_language), all of who are/were neighbors. Here is a map of West African kingdoms in 1625:
If one were to superimpose the Nigerian portion of that map on these Nigerian states
https://www.nigerianmuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Nigeria-Map-36-States-plus-Abuja-500x436.jpg
as well as on the followung map showing the Niger-Benue confluence:
One will then get a good picture of why you write below that: "(they) claim to be Yoruba from the north (or northern Yoruba ) jbecause the present Kwara and Kogi states were once part of the old Northern Region . The capital of old Yoruba kingdom ( the defunct Oyo Empire ) was located somewhere around the present Kogi State".. In fact, if you draw a straight line through my Ekiti State, you will find that many parts of Ekiti State are more "Northern" than certain parts of Kogi, Benue and Taraba States. Therefore we should make a distinction between the "political North" and the "geographic North" of Nigeria.
Read the fascinating history in:
And there you have it.
Bolaji Aluko
On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 1:22 AM Imperial Merchant Trust Ltd <imperi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
WharfNon of the three politicians ever denied being Yoruba but they claim to be Yoruba from the north (or northern Yoruba ) jbecause the present Kwara and Kogi states were once part of the old Northern Region .The capital of old Yoruba kingdom ( the defunct Oyo Empire ) was located somewhere around the present Kogi State up till early 19th century .Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2018, at 11:04 PM, 'Wharf A. Snake' via Corporate Nigeria <corporate-nigeria@googlegroups.com> wrote:Saraki, Sunday Awoniyi, Dino Melaye say they are not Yoruba but Buska, Ogbeni Dipo, Alagba Afis say they are. Now they have claimed the Itshekiri too. Revanchist they all are.Ejo ni Mushin - PrinceSent from my iPhoneYes o, we relate very well as cousinsWe have so many alliances and coalition with ItsekiriSent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2018, at 9:26 PM, 'DIPO ENIOLA' via Corporate Nigeria <corporate-nigeria@googlegroups.com> wrote:A good number of Itsekiri people think they are Yoruba. Some are active in OPC.The Oha 1
farooq...@gmail.com
Aug 26, 2018, 5:46:47 AM8/26/18
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Lots of historical and factual inaccuracies here. I belong to what you call the "Bariba" people. Our endonym is Baatonu (singular) or Baatombu (plural), but I'll stick with the singular in this response.
The old Borgu empire was a pluri-ethnic, confederate polity and was peopled by many other ethnic groups apart from the Baatonu. Tinubu was knighted "jagaban Borgu" (a hitherto non-existent title) by the Boko people in New Bussa in present-day Niger State, not by the Baatonu (or what you call Bariba) people. The Baatonu are found in western Kwara State (in Baruten LGA) and in northern and central Benin Republic. They had nothing to do with Tinubu's title.
So there is no connection between Tinubu's made-up title and the Baatonu (Bariba) people. The late Haliru Dantoro, who was Tinubu's personal friend when they were both senators in IBB's stillborn Third Republic, invented a title for Tinubu when he became emir. "Jagaba" is not even a Boko word; it's a Hausa word. Bussa people are not Hausa people. Most importantly, though, the Borgu people that people of the old Oyo Empire related with were the Baatonu people, not the Boko people whose emir chose to bear the misleading title of "Emir of Borgu" fairly recently (Borgu never had and still doesn't have one supreme leader because it was a mutli-ethnic confederate empire) and conferred the fraudulent title of "Jagaba" to Tinubu.
Farooq
Farooq Kperogi, PhD
Associate Professor
Journalism and Emerging Media
School of Communication & Media
Social Science Building Room 5092
402 Bartow Avenue
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw, GA 30144
Office phone: 470-578-7735
Fax: 470-578-9153
Cell: 404-573-9697
Website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter:@farooqkperogi
Sent from my 4G LTE Android device. Please forgive typos.
Associate Professor
Journalism and Emerging Media
School of Communication & Media
Social Science Building Room 5092
402 Bartow Avenue
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw, GA 30144
Office phone: 470-578-7735
Fax: 470-578-9153
Cell: 404-573-9697
Website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter:@farooqkperogi
Sent from my 4G LTE Android device. Please forgive typos.
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2018, at 11:04 PM, 'Wharf A. Snake' via Corporate Nigeria <corporat...@googlegroups.com> wrote:Saraki, Sunday Awoniyi, Dino Melaye say they are not Yoruba but Buska, Ogbeni Dipo, Alagba Afis say they are. Now they have claimed the Itshekiri too. Revanchist they all are.Ejo ni Mushin - PrinceSent from my iPhoneYes o, we relate very well as cousinsWe have so many alliances and coalition with ItsekiriSent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2018, at 9:26 PM, 'DIPO ENIOLA' via Corporate Nigeria <corporat...@googlegroups.com> wrote:A good number of Itsekiri people think they are Yoruba. Some are active in OPC.The Oha 1
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Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 26, 2018, 8:09:38 AM8/26/18
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Thanks for informing,/reminding us that you are of Bariiba/Baatonu ethnic group, who, along with the Boko, Hausa (?) and other peoples, made up the Borgu Empire of yore, and today make up that portion of Niger State that has a more recently formed Emirate of Borgu and an even more recently formed Jagsban "chieftaincy" title that was conferred on Tinubu, whose friend of the old Senate era, the current Emir, is actually Boko, not Bariba as I wrongly conveyed, the single error that I believe that I made by making all Borgu only Bariba. I would be hard-pressed though to believe, like you wrote, that the Oyo Yoruba dealt ONLY with the Bariba and not also with the Boko of old Borgu Empire.
Have a good Sunday.
Bolaji Aluko
Sent from my iPhone
On 24 Aug 2018, at 11:04 PM, 'Wharf A. Snake' via Corporate Nigeria <corporate-nigeria@googlegroups.com> wrote:Saraki, Sunday Awoniyi, Dino Melaye say they are not Yoruba but Buska, Ogbeni Dipo, Alagba Afis say they are. Now they have claimed the Itshekiri too. Revanchist they all are.Ejo ni Mushin - PrinceSent from my iPhoneYes o, we relate very well as cousinsWe have so many alliances and coalition with ItsekiriSent from my iPad
On Aug 23, 2018, at 9:26 PM, 'DIPO ENIOLA' via Corporate Nigeria <corporate-nigeria@googlegroups.com> wrote:A good number of Itsekiri people think they are Yoruba. Some are active in OPC.The Oha 1
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Ibrahim Abdullah
Aug 26, 2018, 9:13:28 AM8/26/18
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Fictional geography!
<image.png>If one were to superimpose the Nigerian portion of that map on these Nigerian stateshttps://www.nigerianmuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Nigeria-Map-36-States-plus-Abuja-500x436.jpg
<image.png>as well as on the followung map showing the Niger-Benue confluence:
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Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 26, 2018, 9:34:35 AM8/26/18
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Correct geography is.....?
Fictional geography!
farooq...@gmail.com
Aug 26, 2018, 12:16:01 PM8/26/18
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Also, claims that the Baatonu people aided the Yoruba in their fight against the Nupe or the Fulani is made-up history.
My grandfather was born in the 1800s and died in 1993 at around 120 years old. He was the oldest person in the community. A member of this list interviewed him for his book on Borgu. My grandfather either directly witnessed some of the events some historians misrepresent or was told about them by his father who witnessed them firsthand--and who also lived for over a 100 years. He told us before his death--and histories of Borgou written in French in Benin Republic confirm this-- that the Baatonu people didn't go to Ilorin to help the Alaafin fight Emir Shita of Ilorin. They went to Ilorin to fight a battle of conquest of their own and were defeated. Many of them were ashamed to come back home; their descendants are now part of the Ilorin ethnogenesis, as I pointed out in my last two columns.
Ilorin isn't the only Yoruba town the Baatonu invaded. The 1800s were times of conquest and expansion. The Baatonu also invaded and conquered many territories in what is now northern Oyo. The king of Kishi, for instance, traces descent to Baatonu ancestors and still owes allegiance to the King of Nikki, the paramount ruler of the Baatonu, who is in what is now Benin Republic. He attends the yearly Gaani festival in Nikki. The current ruling family in Ogbomoso traces descent to Baatonu ancestors. "Soun" is the corruption of "suno," the Baatonu word for king. Professor Oyeronke Oyewumi, a daughter of the current Shoun of Ogbomoso, can confirm this. I call her my "Bere" because of this distant ancestral connection about which we discuss jovially every once in a while.
Of course, there was a robust historical relationship between Oyo and the Baatonu side of Borgu that wasn't about war and conquest. There was a lot intermarriage, for instance. There is a famous Alaafin (I forget his name now) whose mother was Baatonu. There is also sango worship among the Baatonu, which was clearly borrowed from the Oyo empire. To this day, an average Baatonu is more at home with people from Oke-Ogun in northern Oyo State than with any other demographic group in Nigeria because of geographic contiguity and continuing intermarriage.
The reason the people of Oyo Empire related more with the Baatonu than with the Boko of New Bussa is purely geographic. The Baatonu are the immediate northern neighbors of the Oyo Empire. The Boko people are further afar.
Farooq
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Akin Ogundiran
Aug 26, 2018, 9:38:40 PM8/26/18
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A little clarification because some of the previous exchanges seem to have collapsed about four hundred years of history into one event.
1. The Ibariba (Baatonu) and the Oyo collaborated in the mid-sixteenth century to defend their homelands from a segment of Nupe militarists (not all Nupe) who were "creating trouble" throughout the northern Yoruba region, and Moshi-Niger area. The Wasangari who were ruling a large section of the Ibariba region feared that the crisis could spread to their territory and they supported this Oyo-Ibariba coalition. The Alaafin-led resistance finally pushed back and subdued the Nupe militarists in the last quarter of the sixteenth century. The victory launched Oyo on its path of political expansion and empire building.
2. In 1825, the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost.
3. In 1837, the Oyo and Ibariba collaborated to fight against the Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost. Four Ibariba kings, the Alaafin and his son were among the people who perished in that war. If they had won, Oyo would have benefited the most but these Ibariba leaders were also fighting for their own survival against the expanding Sokoto Caliphate.
4. In 1840, Ibadan organized a region-wide defense against the southward push of Ilorin Islamists (who were being directly supported by the Sokoto Caliphate). The Ibadan won the battle in Ilorin and saved the Houses of Oduduwa from becoming emirates. That victory also launched Ibadan on the path of its own expansionist program.
5. Soun was the governor that the Alaafin sent to rule Ogbomoso area in the late sixteenth century when the Oyo Empire project began. Yes, he was Ibariba (and possibly other things). But this is a common practice in Oyo Empire --- to send non-natives to govern conquered territories. Oyo Empire sent Yoruba governors to manage affairs in Ibariba country as well. Even Oyo governors of Hausa background were sent to Oyo's colonies in Yewa (Egbado) area. Empire-builders cannot afford to think like a village head. They were successful because they were cosmopolitan in thinking and practice with sharp eyes for meritocracy. Also, you cannot create boundaries when you are trying to expand boundaries. Oyo Empire was a Yoruba-dominated entity but other language communities were absorbed into it and they became Oyo citizens or Alaafin's subjects.
Akin Ogundiran
UNC Charlotte
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farooq...@gmail.com
Aug 27, 2018, 3:56:17 AM8/27/18
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These are no more than uncritical regurgitations of Oyo-centric oral histories, which neither Baatonu nor Nupe oral histories corroborate, and which are contradicted by written records of the time in some cases. There is no point arguing about the 16th century. I'd only say that the Baatonu, in both Nigeria and Benin Republic, have no record of the putative Alaafin-led Oyo-Baatonu onslaught on the Nupe. Since there is no extant written record to authoritatively dispute or validate this claim, I'll just leave it at that.
The easiest claim to dispute is the claim that "In 1825, the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost." First, there was no war between "Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin" and Oyo in 1825. Ilorin's first emir was installed in 1823. The first war with Oyo didn't take place until around 1837. At that time, the first emir had died and was replaced by his younger brother, Shita. It was Shita who fought a war with Oyo and Borgu (or, more correctly, with whom Oyo and Borgu fought a war since he didn't initiate it). From the correspondence Sultan Muhammad Bello exchanged with Emir Shi'ta of Ilorin in the 1830s, we know for a fact that Bello sent a contingent of fighters to help Shita, and some members of that contingent were taken from Nupeland where Fulani rulers had taken over political power. So to claim that "the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin" is counterfactual. It's uncritical acceptance of oral history.
You said, "In 1837, the Oyo and Ibariba collaborated to fight against the Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost. Four Ibariba kings, the Alaafin and his son were among the people who perished in that war. If they had won, Oyo would have benefited the most but these Ibariba leaders were also fighting for their own survival against the expanding Sokoto Caliphate."
Again, that is Oyo-centric historical reconstruction that is not corroborated by the collective memories of the Baatonu people. The Baatonu people don't remember this as a collaborative war. They remember it as a failed self-interested war of conquest. Most importantly, though, there is no shred of historical evidence that the Sokoto Caliphate was "expanding" in the ways you suggest. The Ilorin caliphate was a historical accident. Had Afonja not invited Alimi to Ilorin and told him to resettle his family in Ilorin, there would never have been an emirate in that city. Alimi was only an itinerant Islamic preacher with no connections to the Sokoto caliphate and no political ambitions. In the six years he lived in Ilorin before his death, he never declared himself an emir. It was his son who was made "leader of Muslims" after his father's death. And all records showed that his son didn't seek to expand the caliphate because he was severely insecure and was consumed by existential anxieties. He and his brother sought military help from Sokoto not to expand the caliphate but to survive in Ilorin.
"Soun was the governor that the Alaafin sent to rule Ogbomoso area in the late sixteenth century when the Oyo Empire project began. Yes, he was Ibariba (and possibly other things). But this is a common practice in Oyo Empire --- to send non-natives to govern conquered territories. Oyo Empire sent Yoruba governors to manage affairs in Ibariba country as well. Even Oyo governors of Hausa background were sent to Oyo's colonies in Yewa (Egbado) area. Empire-builders cannot afford to think like a village head. They were successful because they were cosmopolitan in thinking and practice with sharp eyes for meritocracy. Also, you cannot create boundaries when you are trying to expand boundaries. Oyo Empire was a Yoruba-dominated entity but other language communities were absorbed into it and they became Oyo citizens or Alaafin's subjects."
This made me laugh out so loud!!! So you actually believe this? What about the Iba of Kishi who still pays homage to the king of Nikki? Was he also a "non-native" governor sent by the Alaafin?
Farooq
Farooq A. Kperogi, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Journalism & Emerging MediaSchool of Communication & Media
Social Science Building
Room 5092 MD 2207
402 Bartow Avenue
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw, Georgia, USA 30144
Cell: (+1) 404-573-9697
Personal website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Cell: (+1) 404-573-9697
Personal website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter: @farooqkperog
Author of Glocal English: The Changing Face and Forms of Nigerian English in a Global World
"The nice thing about pessimism is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." G. F. Will
"The nice thing about pessimism is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." G. F. Will
Toyin Falola
Aug 27, 2018, 4:41:49 AM8/27/18
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Seeking support from Sokoto was to obtain a flag.
A flag was the permission to launch a jihad.
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Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 27, 2018, 6:10:59 AM8/27/18
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Thanks for your interventions, which I have concatenated below. Despite the counter-factual contradictions etc. inherent in any oral histories, or suspicions of the hunter and the hunted telling different tales of their braveries, one thing rings clear in all the tales though: from the 16th to the 19th Centuries, the Oyo-Yoruba, the (I)Bariba/Batoonu/Borgu and the Nupe histories are very much inter-twined, and we should leave who fought, beat, enslaved and befriended one or the other aside. We weren't there at those times, and when wars are concerned, truth and ego are the greatest casualties.
But a little geography and a bit of gossipy history won't hurt....
We must make a distinction between Old Oyo (or Oyo Ile) - which was in present-day Kwara State, and was close to the confluence of the Borgu and Nupe people, and was NORTH-WEST of present-day Ilorin (which does not seem to have changed location since its establishment) and present day New Oyo (in present-day Oyo State) which is SOUTH-WEST of Ilorin. Ogbomosho lies between Ilorin and new Oyo, almost thirty-miles equidistant to both. These three maps show that geography:
Map emphasizing the relationship between present-day Oyo, Kwara, Kogi and Niger States
The New Yoruba States c. 1836 - 1862 (Map 3 in book: Kingdoms of the Yoruba by Robert S. Smith, Third Edition, 1988, U. Wisconsin Press)
The Yoruba Kingdoms and their Neighbors (Map 1 in book: Kingdoms of the Yoruba by Robert S. Smith, Third Edition, 1988, U. Wisconsin Press)
Since Farooq's "grandfather .....died in 1993 at around 120 years old" - meaning that he was born in 1870 or thereabout - and his great-grandfather lived to 100 years - putting his birth in 1840 or thereabout if your grandfather was his first-born or 1800 if your grandfaher was an old-age child - their oral histories cannot be completely discounted.
My final intervention here is to give an alternative story to why the "Soun" of Ogbomosho is so named - and how "Ogbomosho" itself came to be so named. Farooq says that "Soun" is a corruption of the Batoonu name for king - "Sonu". But who knows whether it is "Sonu" which is a corruption of "Soun?"
Well, the story is told of an Ibariba man called Ogunlola who was a known itinerant hunter, but was jailed/detained by the Alaafin of Oyo for bedding the Ijesa wife of a chief, an abomination then and now. At the same time, there was a marauding fellow named Elemosho who was making life difficult for the Oyo people, and in exchange for his life, Ogunlola offered to hunt Elemosho down. The Alaafin agreed, and lo and behold, Ogunsola killed Elemosho and brought his cut-off head to the Aafin (palace). In Yoruba - "O gbe ori Elemosho de" , "he has brought Elemosho's head"- which became shortened to Ogbomosho! The Alaafin offered to make him a chief in Oyo, but Ogunlola refused, saying that "Mo fe lo sh'oun!" - meaning that he wanted to head off somewhere "over there" safer from the king. This was approved, and whereupon he became the first Soun of Ogbomosho - Oba Olabanjo Ogunlola Ogundiran (1659-1714)!
LIST OF SOUNS OF OGBOMOSO LAND
1. OBA OLABANJO OGUNLOLA OGUNDIRAN 1659-1714
2. OBA ERINSABA ALAMU JOGIORO 1714-1770
3. OBA IKUMOYEDE AJAO 1770- 1797
4. OBA TOYEJE AKANNI 1797-1825 (Aare onakankanfo of yoruba land)
5. OBA JAIYEOLA ARE AROLOFIN ALAO 1840-1842
6. OBA IDOWU BOLANTA ADIGUN 1842-1845
7. OBA OGUNLABI ODUNARO 1845-1860
8. OBA OJO ABURUMAKU ADIO 1860-1869 (Aare onakankanfo of yorubaland)
9. OBA GBAGUNGBOYE AJAMASA AJAGUNGBADE 1 1869-1871
10. OBA OLAOYE ATANDA ORUMOGEGE 1871-1901
11. OBA MAJENGBASAN ELEPO 1 1901-1907
12. OBA ADEGOKE ATANDA LAYODE 1 1908-1914
13. OBA ITABIYI OLANREWAJU ANDE 1914-1916
14. OBA BELLO AFOLABI OYEWUMI AJAGUNGBADE 2 1916-1940
15. OBA LAWANI OKE LANIPEKUN 1944-1952
16.OBA OLATUNJI ALAO ELEPO 2 1952-1966
17. OBA OLAJIDE OLAYODE 2 1966-1969
18. OBA SALAMI AJIBOYE ITABIYI 1972-1973
19.OBA OLADUNNI OYEWUMI AJAGUNGBADE 3 1973 TILL DATE
1. OBA OLABANJO OGUNLOLA OGUNDIRAN 1659-1714
2. OBA ERINSABA ALAMU JOGIORO 1714-1770
3. OBA IKUMOYEDE AJAO 1770- 1797
4. OBA TOYEJE AKANNI 1797-1825 (Aare onakankanfo of yoruba land)
5. OBA JAIYEOLA ARE AROLOFIN ALAO 1840-1842
6. OBA IDOWU BOLANTA ADIGUN 1842-1845
7. OBA OGUNLABI ODUNARO 1845-1860
8. OBA OJO ABURUMAKU ADIO 1860-1869 (Aare onakankanfo of yorubaland)
9. OBA GBAGUNGBOYE AJAMASA AJAGUNGBADE 1 1869-1871
10. OBA OLAOYE ATANDA ORUMOGEGE 1871-1901
11. OBA MAJENGBASAN ELEPO 1 1901-1907
12. OBA ADEGOKE ATANDA LAYODE 1 1908-1914
13. OBA ITABIYI OLANREWAJU ANDE 1914-1916
14. OBA BELLO AFOLABI OYEWUMI AJAGUNGBADE 2 1916-1940
15. OBA LAWANI OKE LANIPEKUN 1944-1952
16.OBA OLATUNJI ALAO ELEPO 2 1952-1966
17. OBA OLAJIDE OLAYODE 2 1966-1969
18. OBA SALAMI AJIBOYE ITABIYI 1972-1973
19.OBA OLADUNNI OYEWUMI AJAGUNGBADE 3 1973 TILL DATE
Farooq's great-grandfather (1800-1900?) might have lived through the 4th to 11th Soun, while is grandfather (1870 to 1993) must have lived from the 9th Soun, dying during the continuing reign of the present 19th Soun.
Fascinating.....
And there you have it.
Bolaji Aluko
PS: Is Akin Ogundiran by any chance from Ogbomosho?
On Monday, Farooq Kperogi Wrote:
These are no more than uncritical regurgitations of Oyo-centric oral histories, which neither Baatonu nor Nupe oral histories corroborate, and which are contradicted by written records of the time in some cases. There is no point arguing about the 16th century. I'd only say that the Baatonu, in both Nigeria and Benin Republic, have no record of the putative Alaafin-led Oyo-Baatonu onslaught on the Nupe. Since there is no extant written record to authoritatively dispute or validate this claim, I'll just leave it at that.
The easiest claim to dispute is the claim that "In 1825, the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost." First, there was no war between "Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin" and Oyo in 1825. Ilorin's first emir was installed in 1823. The first war with Oyo didn't take place until around 1837. At that time, the first emir had died and was replaced by his younger brother, Shita. It was Shita who fought a war with Oyo and Borgu (or, more correctly, with whom Oyo and Borgu fought a war since he didn't initiate it). From the correspondence Sultan Muhammad Bello exchanged with Emir Shi'ta of Ilorin in the 1830s, we know for a fact that Bello sent a contingent of fighters to help Shita, and some members of that contingent were taken from Nupeland where Fulani rulers had taken over political power. So to claim that "the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin" is counterfactual. It's uncritical acceptance of oral history.
You said, "In 1837, the Oyo and Ibariba collaborated to fight against the Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost. Four Ibariba kings, the Alaafin and his son were among the people who perished in that war. If they had won, Oyo would have benefited the most but these Ibariba leaders were also fighting for their own survival against the expanding Sokoto Caliphate."
Again, that is Oyo-centric historical reconstruction that is not corroborated by the collective memories of the Baatonu people. The Baatonu people don't remember this as a collaborative war. They remember it as a failed self-interested war of conquest. Most importantly, though, there is no shred of historical evidence that the Sokoto Caliphate was "expanding" in the ways you suggest. The Ilorin caliphate was a historical accident. Had Afonja not invited Alimi to Ilorin and told him to resettle his family in Ilorin, there would never have been an emirate in that city. Alimi was only an itinerant Islamic preacher with no connections to the Sokoto caliphate and no political ambitions. In the six years he lived in Ilorin before his death, he never declared himself an emir. It was his son who was made "leader of Muslims" after his father's death. And all records showed that his son didn't seek to expand the caliphate because he was severely insecure and was consumed by existential anxieties. He and his brother sought military help from Sokoto not to expand the caliphate but to survive in Ilorin.
"Soun was the governor that the Alaafin sent to rule Ogbomoso area in the late sixteenth century when the Oyo Empire project began. Yes, he was Ibariba (and possibly other things). But this is a common practice in Oyo Empire --- to send non-natives to govern conquered territories. Oyo Empire sent Yoruba governors to manage affairs in Ibariba country as well. Even Oyo governors of Hausa background were sent to Oyo's colonies in Yewa (Egbado) area. Empire-builders cannot afford to think like a village head. They were successful because they were cosmopolitan in thinking and practice with sharp eyes for meritocracy. Also, you cannot create boundaries when you are trying to expand boundaries. Oyo Empire was a Yoruba-dominated entity but other language communities were absorbed into it and they became Oyo citizens or Alaafin's subjects."
This made me laugh out so loud!!! So you actually believe this? What about the Iba of Kishi who still pays homage to the king of Nikki? Was he also a "non-native" governor sent by the Alaafin?
Farooq
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 2:38 AM Akin Ogundiran <ogun...@gmail.com> wrote:
A little clarification because some of the previous exchanges seem to have collapsed about four hundred years of history into one event.1. The Ibariba (Baatonu) and the Oyo collaborated in the mid-sixteenth century to defend their homelands from a segment of Nupe militarists (not all Nupe) who were "creating trouble" throughout the northern Yoruba region, and Moshi-Niger area. The Wasangari who were ruling a large section of the Ibariba region feared that the crisis could spread to their territory and they supported this Oyo-Ibariba coalition. The Alaafin-led resistance finally pushed back and subdued the Nupe militarists in the last quarter of the sixteenth century. The victory launched Oyo on its path of political expansion and empire building.2. In 1825, the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost.3. In 1837, the Oyo and Ibariba collaborated to fight against the Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost. Four Ibariba kings, the Alaafin and his son were among the people who perished in that war. If they had won, Oyo would have benefited the most but these Ibariba leaders were also fighting for their own survival against the expanding Sokoto Caliphate.4. In 1840, Ibadan organized a region-wide defense against the southward push of Ilorin Islamists (who were being directly supported by the Sokoto Caliphate). The Ibadan won the battle in Ilorin and saved the Houses of Oduduwa from becoming emirates. That victory also launched Ibadan on the path of its own expansionist program.5. Soun was the governor that the Alaafin sent to rule Ogbomoso area in the late sixteenth century when the Oyo Empire project began. Yes, he was Ibariba (and possibly other things). But this is a common practice in Oyo Empire --- to send non-natives to govern conquered territories. Oyo Empire sent Yoruba governors to manage affairs in Ibariba country as well. Even Oyo governors of Hausa background were sent to Oyo's colonies in Yewa (Egbado) area. Empire-builders cannot afford to think like a village head. They were successful because they were cosmopolitan in thinking and practice with sharp eyes for meritocracy. Also, you cannot create boundaries when you are trying to expand boundaries. Oyo Empire was a Yoruba-dominated entity but other language communities were absorbed into it and they became Oyo citizens or Alaafin's subjects.Akin OgundiranUNC Charlotte
---------
Farooq Kperogi wrote:
Also, claims that the Baatonu people aided the Yoruba in their fight against the Nupe or the Fulani is made-up history.
My grandfather was born in the 1800s and died in 1993 at around 120 years old. He was the oldest person in the community. A member of this list interviewed him for his book on Borgu. My grandfather either directly witnessed some of the events some historians misrepresent or was told about them by his father who witnessed them firsthand--and who also lived for over a 100 years. He told us before his death--and histories of Borgou written in French in Benin Republic confirm this-- that the Baatonu people didn't go to Ilorin to help the Alaafin fight Emir Shita of Ilorin. They went to Ilorin to fight a battle of conquest of their own and were defeated. Many of them were ashamed to come back home; their descendants are now part of the Ilorin ethnogenesis, as I pointed out in my last two columns.
Ilorin isn't the only Yoruba town the Baatonu invaded. The 1800s were times of conquest and expansion. The Baatonu also invaded and conquered many territories in what is now northern Oyo. The king of Kishi, for instance, traces descent to Baatonu ancestors and still owes allegiance to the King of Nikki, the paramount ruler of the Baatonu, who is in what is now Benin Republic. He attends the yearly Gaani festival in Nikki. The current ruling family in Ogbomoso traces descent to Baatonu ancestors. "Soun" is the corruption of "suno," the Baatonu word for king. Professor Oyeronke Oyewumi, a daughter of the current Shoun of Ogbomoso, can confirm this. I call her my "Bere" because of this distant ancestral connection about which we discuss jovially every once in a while.
Of course, there was a robust historical relationship between Oyo and the Baatonu side of Borgu that wasn't about war and conquest. There was a lot intermarriage, for instance. There is a famous Alaafin (I forget his name now) whose mother was Baatonu. There is also sango worship among the Baatonu, which was clearly borrowed from the Oyo empire. To this day, an average Baatonu is more at home with people from Oke-Ogun in northern Oyo State than with any other demographic group in Nigeria because of geographic contiguity and continuing intermarriage.
The reason the people of Oyo Empire related more with the Baatonu than with the Boko of New Bussa is purely geographic. The Baatonu are the immediate northern neighbors of the Oyo Empire. The Boko people are further afar.
Farooq
----------
Bolaji Aluko wrote....
Farooq Kperogi:
Thanks for informing,/reminding us that you are of Bariiba/Baatonu ethnic group, who, along with the Boko, Hausa (?) and other peoples, made up the Borgu Empire of yore, and today make up that portion of Niger State that has a more recently formed Emirate of Borgu and an even more recently formed Jagsban "chieftaincy" title that was conferred on Tinubu, whose friend of the old Senate era, the current Emir, is actually Boko, not Bariba as I wrongly conveyed, the single error that I believe that I made by making all Borgu only Bariba. I would be hard-pressed though to believe, like you wrote, that the Oyo Yoruba dealt ONLY with the Bariba and not also with the Boko of old Borgu Empire.
Have a good Sunday.
Bolaji Aluko
-------------------------------------------------------------
Farooq Kperogi wrote....
Lots of historical and factual inaccuracies here. I belong to what you call the "Bariba" people. Our endonym is Baatonu (singular) or Baatombu (plural), but I'll stick with the singular in this response.
The old Borgu empire was a pluri-ethnic, confederate polity and was peopled by many other ethnic groups apart from the Baatonu. Tinubu was knighted "jagaban Borgu" (a hitherto non-existent title) by the Boko people in New Bussa in present-day Niger State, not by the Baatonu (or what you call Bariba) people. The Baatonu are found in western Kwara State (in Baruten LGA) and in northern and central Benin Republic. They had nothing to do with Tinubu's title.
So there is no connection between Tinubu's made-up title and the Baatonu (Bariba) people. The late Haliru Dantoro, who was Tinubu's personal friend when they were both senators in IBB's stillborn Third Republic, invented a title for Tinubu when he became emir. "Jagaba" is not even a Boko word; it's a Hausa word. Bussa people are not Hausa people. Most importantly, though, the Borgu people that people of the old Oyo Empire related with were the Baatonu people, not the Boko people whose emir chose to bear the misleading title of "Emir of Borgu" fairly recently (Borgu never had and still doesn't have one supreme leader because it was a mutli-ethnic confederate empire) and conferred the fraudulent title of "Jagaba" to Tinubu.
Farooq
On Saturday, August 25, 2018 at 4:07:36 PM UTC-4, Bolaji Aluko wrote:
--
Kwabena Akurang-Parry
Aug 27, 2018, 8:40:27 AM8/27/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Pardon me, I have no idea what this is all about. But let me throw in this. Theoretically oral histories from different or coterminous states/societies don't necessarily have to be corroborative or complementary. Even oral history
from the same family may be different because of memory and selectivity. Certainly, oral histories may be used to interrogate written sources on African
history that tend to be lopsidedly laden with biased perspectives chronicled mostly by non-Africans in the precolonial and colonial periods. Absolutely, written sources have their hegemonic slant, while oral histories have their fluidity and mutability. Also
oral histories have selectivity of detail and facts and may also conceal some aspects of lived-experiences for convenience instead of disclosure of neutral truth. Just a thought oh!
Kwabena
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of farooq...@gmail.com <farooq...@gmail.com>
Sent: August 27, 2018 2:44 AM
To: USAAfrica Dialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Sent: August 27, 2018 2:44 AM
To: USAAfrica Dialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
farooq...@gmail.com
Aug 27, 2018, 9:31:02 AM8/27/18
to USAAfrica Dialogue
Yes, it's true that they sought a flag from Sokoto, but it was for recognition for the emergent caliphate, not for "jihad"--certainly not jihad in the way it has been represented in the orthodox historical literature in Nigeria. There is no support for that claim in the written records of the time that I have read--correspondence between Muhammad Bello and the Ilorin emirs, the Ta'lif, etc. The support Abdulsalam, the first emir of Ilorin, sought from Sokoto was for Bello's intervention on theological and jurisprudential issues. (He, of course, disbanded Afonja's army called jama because he felt threatened by it). Shi'ta sought support from Sokoto to defend the caliphate from Oyo and Borgu threats.
Farooq
Farooq
Farooq Kperogi, PhD
Associate Professor
Associate Professor
Journalism and Emerging Media
School of Communication & Media
Social Science Building Room 5092
402 Bartow Avenue
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw, GA 30144
Office phone: 470-578-7735
Fax: 470-578-9153
Cell: 404-573-9697
Website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter:@farooqkperogi
Sent from my 4G LTE Android device. Please forgive typos.
Office phone: 470-578-7735
Fax: 470-578-9153
Cell: 404-573-9697
Website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter:@farooqkperogi
Sent from my 4G LTE Android device. Please forgive typos.
OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Aug 27, 2018, 9:31:03 AM8/27/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Bolaji:
Every educated Yoruba from age 40 upwards knows the origins of the Ogbomosho name and title you refer to here ( even if not the Bariba connections) particularly its etymological roots.
OAA.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
And there you have it.
Bolaji Aluko
PS: Is Akin Ogundiran by any chance from Ogbomosho?
On Monday, Farooq Kperogi Wrote:
These are no more than uncritical regurgitations of Oyo-centric oral histories, which neither Baatonu nor Nupe oral histories corroborate, and which are contradicted by written records of the time in some cases. There is no point arguing about the 16th
century. I'd only say that the Baatonu, in both Nigeria and Benin Republic, have no record of the putative Alaafin-led Oyo-Baatonu onslaught on the Nupe. Since there is no extant written record to authoritatively dispute or validate this claim, I'll just leave
it at that.
The easiest claim to dispute is the claim that "In 1825, the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost." First, there was no war between "Fulani-led Islamist power in
Ilorin" and Oyo in 1825. Ilorin's first emir was installed in 1823. The first war with Oyo didn't take place until around 1837. At that time, the first emir had died and was replaced by his younger brother, Shita. It was Shita who fought a war with Oyo and
Borgu (or, more correctly, with whom Oyo and Borgu fought a war since he didn't initiate it). From the correspondence Sultan Muhammad Bello exchanged with Emir Shi'ta of Ilorin in the 1830s, we know for a fact that Bello sent a contingent of fighters to help
Shita, and some members of that contingent were taken from Nupeland where Fulani rulers had taken over political power. So to claim that "the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin"
is counterfactual. It's uncritical acceptance of oral history.
You said, "In 1837, the Oyo and Ibariba collaborated to fight against the Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost. Four Ibariba kings, the Alaafin and his son were among the people who perished in that war. If they had won, Oyo would have benefited
the most but these Ibariba leaders were also fighting for their own survival against the expanding Sokoto Caliphate."
Again, that is Oyo-centric historical reconstruction that is not corroborated by the collective memories of the Baatonu people. The Baatonu people don't remember this as a collaborative war. They remember it as a failed self-interested war of conquest.
Most importantly, though, there is no shred of historical evidence that the Sokoto Caliphate was "expanding" in the ways you suggest. The Ilorin caliphate was a historical accident. Had Afonja not invited Alimi to Ilorin and told him to resettle his family
in Ilorin, there would never have been an emirate in that city. Alimi was only an itinerant Islamic preacher with no connections to the Sokoto caliphate and no political ambitions. In the six years he lived in Ilorin before his death, he never declared himself
an emir. It was his son who was made "leader of Muslims" after his father's death. And all records showed that his son didn't seek to expand the caliphate because he was severely insecure and was consumed by existential anxieties. He and his brother sought
military help from Sokoto not to expand the caliphate but to survive in Ilorin.
"Soun was the governor that the Alaafin sent to rule Ogbomoso area in the late sixteenth century when the Oyo Empire project began. Yes, he was Ibariba (and possibly other things). But this is a common practice in Oyo Empire --- to send non-natives to
govern conquered territories. Oyo Empire sent Yoruba governors to manage affairs in Ibariba country as well. Even Oyo governors of Hausa background were sent to Oyo's colonies in Yewa (Egbado) area. Empire-builders cannot afford to think like a village head.
They were successful because they were cosmopolitan in thinking and practice with sharp eyes for meritocracy. Also, you cannot create boundaries when you are trying to expand boundaries. Oyo Empire was a Yoruba-dominated entity but other language communities
were absorbed into it and they became Oyo citizens or Alaafin's subjects."
This made me laugh out so loud!!! So you actually believe this? What about the Iba of Kishi who still pays homage to the king of Nikki? Was he also a "non-native" governor sent by the Alaafin?
Farooq
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 2:38 AM Akin Ogundiran <ogun...@gmail.com> wrote:
A little clarification because some of the previous exchanges seem to have collapsed about four hundred years of history into one event.
1. The Ibariba (Baatonu) and the Oyo collaborated in the mid-sixteenth century to defend their homelands from a segment of Nupe militarists (not all Nupe) who were "creating trouble" throughout the northern Yoruba region, and Moshi-Niger area. The Wasangari who were ruling a large section of the Ibariba region feared that the crisis could spread to their territory and they supported this Oyo-Ibariba coalition. The Alaafin-led resistance finally pushed back and subdued the Nupe militarists in the last quarter of the sixteenth century. The victory launched Oyo on its path of political expansion and empire building.
2. In 1825, the Oyo and a political faction of Nupe collaborated to fight against the rising Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost.
3. In 1837, the Oyo and Ibariba collaborated to fight against the Fulani-led Islamist power in Ilorin but they lost. Four Ibariba kings, the Alaafin and his son were among the people who perished in that war. If they had won, Oyo would have benefited the most but these Ibariba leaders were also fighting for their own survival against the expanding Sokoto Caliphate.
4. In 1840, Ibadan organized a region-wide defense against the southward push of Ilorin Islamists (who were being directly supported by the Sokoto Caliphate). The Ibadan won the battle in Ilorin and saved the Houses of Oduduwa from becoming emirates. That victory also launched Ibadan on the path of its own expansionist program.
5. Soun was the governor that the Alaafin sent to rule Ogbomoso area in the late sixteenth century when the Oyo Empire project began. Yes, he was Ibariba (and possibly other things). But this is a common practice in Oyo Empire --- to send non-natives to govern conquered territories. Oyo Empire sent Yoruba governors to manage affairs in Ibariba country as well. Even Oyo governors of Hausa background were sent to Oyo's colonies in Yewa (Egbado) area. Empire-builders cannot afford to think like a village head. They were successful because they were cosmopolitan in thinking and practice with sharp eyes for meritocracy. Also, you cannot create boundaries when you are trying to expand boundaries. Oyo Empire was a Yoruba-dominated entity but other language communities were absorbed into it and they became Oyo citizens or Alaafin's subjects.
Akin OgundiranUNC Charlotte
---------
Farooq Kperogi wrote:
Also, claims that the Baatonu people aided the Yoruba in their fight against the Nupe or the Fulani is made-up history.
My grandfather was born in the 1800s and died in 1993 at around 120 years old. He was the oldest person in the community. A member of this list interviewed him for his book on Borgu. My grandfather either directly witnessed some of the events
some historians misrepresent or was told about them by his father who witnessed them firsthand--and who also lived for over a 100 years. He told us before his death--and histories of Borgou written in French in Benin Republic confirm this-- that the Baatonu
people didn't go to Ilorin to help the Alaafin fight Emir Shita of Ilorin. They went to Ilorin to fight a battle of conquest of their own and were defeated. Many of them were ashamed to come back home; their descendants are now part of the Ilorin ethnogenesis,
as I pointed out in my last two columns.
Ilorin isn't the only Yoruba town the Baatonu invaded. The 1800s were times of conquest and expansion. The Baatonu also invaded and conquered many territories in what is now northern Oyo. The king of Kishi, for instance, traces descent to Baatonu
ancestors and still owes allegiance to the King of Nikki, the paramount ruler of the Baatonu, who is in what is now Benin Republic. He attends the yearly Gaani festival in Nikki. The current ruling family in Ogbomoso traces descent to Baatonu ancestors. "Soun"
is the corruption of "suno," the Baatonu word for king. Professor Oyeronke Oyewumi, a daughter of the current Shoun of Ogbomoso, can confirm this. I call her my "Bere" because of this distant ancestral connection about which we discuss jovially every once
in a while.
Of course, there was a robust historical relationship between Oyo and the Baatonu side of Borgu that wasn't about war and conquest. There was a lot intermarriage, for instance. There is a famous Alaafin (I forget his name now) whose mother was
Baatonu. There is also sango worship among the Baatonu, which was clearly borrowed from the Oyo empire. To this day, an average Baatonu is more at home with people from Oke-Ogun in northern Oyo State than with any other demographic group in Nigeria because
of geographic contiguity and continuing intermarriage.
The reason the people of Oyo Empire related more with the Baatonu than with the Boko of New Bussa is purely geographic. The Baatonu are the immediate northern neighbors of the Oyo Empire. The Boko people are further afar.
Farooq
----------
Bolaji Aluko wrote....
Farooq Kperogi:
Thanks for informing,/reminding us that you are of Bariiba/Baatonu ethnic group, who, along with the Boko, Hausa (?) and other peoples, made up the Borgu Empire of yore, and today make up that portion of Niger State that has a more recently formed Emirate
of Borgu and an even more recently formed Jagsban "chieftaincy" title that was conferred on Tinubu, whose friend of the old Senate era, the current Emir, is actually Boko, not Bariba as I wrongly conveyed, the single error that I believe that I made by making
all Borgu only Bariba. I would be hard-pressed though to believe, like you wrote, that the Oyo Yoruba dealt ONLY with the Bariba and not also with the Boko of old Borgu Empire.
Have a good Sunday.
Bolaji Aluko
-------------------------------------------------------------
Farooq Kperogi wrote....
Lots of historical and factual inaccuracies here. I belong to what you call the "Bariba" people. Our endonym is Baatonu (singular) or Baatombu (plural), but I'll stick with the singular in this response.
The old Borgu empire was a pluri-ethnic, confederate polity and was peopled by many other ethnic groups apart from the Baatonu. Tinubu was knighted "jagaban Borgu" (a hitherto non-existent title) by the Boko people in New Bussa in present-day
Niger State, not by the Baatonu (or what you call Bariba) people. The Baatonu are found in western Kwara State (in Baruten LGA) and in northern and central Benin Republic. They had nothing to do with Tinubu's title.
So there is no connection between Tinubu's made-up title and the Baatonu (Bariba) people. The late Haliru Dantoro, who was Tinubu's personal friend when they were both senators in IBB's stillborn Third Republic, invented a title for Tinubu when
he became emir. "Jagaba" is not even a Boko word; it's a Hausa word. Bussa people are not Hausa people. Most importantly, though, the Borgu people that people of the old Oyo Empire related with were the Baatonu people, not the Boko people whose emir chose
to bear the misleading title of "Emir of Borgu" fairly recently (Borgu never had and still doesn't have one supreme leader because it was a mutli-ethnic confederate empire) and conferred the fraudulent title of "Jagaba" to Tinubu.
Farooq
On Saturday, August 25, 2018 at 4:07:36 PM UTC-4, Bolaji Aluko wrote:
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Akin Ogundiran
Aug 27, 2018, 10:01:23 AM8/27/18
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
Farooq,
I wish you would spend more time reading history before you comment on history, allege "-centric", or dismiss historical fact. Please, let us avoid the arrogance of ignorance. Many scholars have actually dedicated their career studying this subject. The literature is there. This topic is particularly one of the best studied in Yoruba-Ibariba history. The past is knowable even without written records. Some of us happen to spend more time doing historical research (in the field, archive, and laboratory) than writing opinion pieces.
All the best,
All the best,
Akin Ogundiran
UNC Charlotte
OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Aug 27, 2018, 10:03:44 AM8/27/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Agree entirely with your views. There are many stories in the Bible that were orally presented and narrated for hundreds of years about ancient and lost cities before the Old testament was written down including the wall of Jericho (millenia) which archaeological
finds have corroborated. The same with Egypt. Also Schllimans gold was discovered from descriptions in Homer which was an oral tale for centuries before it was written down.
Conversely the fact that written history is written does not mean that the significance of events ( which is really what differentiates stories from histories cannot be biased or falsified.
Oral narratives have to be PROVEN to be false before being dismissed as false. The fact they are not in mutually existing forms in contiguous shared histories is not sufficient grounds to dismiss them. Different cultures determine which events and memories
to preserve and prioritize.
OAA
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Kwabena Akurang-Parry <kap...@hotmail.com>
Date: 27/08/2018 13:40 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (Pardon me, I have no idea what this is all about. But let me throw in this. Theoretically oral histories from different or coterminous states/societies don't necessarily have to be corroborative or complementary. Even oral history from
the same family may be different because of memory and selectivity. Certainly, oral histories may be used to interrogate written sources on African history
that tend to be lopsidedly laden with biased perspectives chronicled mostly by non-Africans in the precolonial and colonial periods. Absolutely, written sources have their hegemonic slant, while oral histories have their fluidity and mutability. Also oral
histories have selectivity of detail and facts and may also conceal some aspects of lived-experiences for convenience instead of disclosure of neutral truth. Just a thought oh!
Kwabena
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of farooq...@gmail.com <farooq...@gmail.com>
Sent: August 27, 2018 2:44 AM
To: USAAfrica Dialogue
Sent: August 27, 2018 2:44 AM
To: USAAfrica Dialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
farooq...@gmail.com
Aug 27, 2018, 10:15:49 AM8/27/18
to USAAfrica Dialogue
Akin,
If this intellectually impoverished valorization of disciplinary insularity is your comeback, it's an admission that you can't vitiate the accuracy of my claims with the resources of scholarship. If anything, though, I'm delighted that you have encountered other narratives that have disrupted the settled orthodoxy you've "dedicated your career to studying." The world out there is way more complex than the simplistic certainties you've habituated yourself to cherish, brother.
Best wishes,
Farooq
Farooq Kperogi, PhD
Associate Professor
Associate Professor
Journalism and Emerging Media
School of Communication & Media
Social Science Building Room 5092
402 Bartow Avenue
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw, GA 30144
Office phone: 470-578-7735
Fax: 470-578-9153
Cell: 404-573-9697
Website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter:@farooqkperogi
Sent from my 4G LTE Android device. Please forgive typos.
Office phone: 470-578-7735
Fax: 470-578-9153
Cell: 404-573-9697
Website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter:@farooqkperogi
Sent from my 4G LTE Android device. Please forgive typos.
Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Aug 27, 2018, 2:31:43 PM8/27/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Agreed. Because a narrative is written down on paper or parchment or wherever-
does not automatically make it true.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:02 AM
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:02 AM
OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Aug 27, 2018, 3:50:29 PM8/27/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Akiika!
Ojogbon Ogundiran.
Let me thank you again for the kernel of knowledge thrown up by your scholarship. True knowledge truly humbles...
If a man dedicates his whole project to a studious vilification of his essentialist other only to be humbled by the knowledge that he may have been at resolute loggerheads with his long lost distant cousins then it is that we say true knowledge truly humbles
And we intone that: brother the world out there is more complex....
And is Agbetuyi right in saying Nigeria is one huge family?
And here I rest my case. Oro pesi je!
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Aug 27, 2018, 4:27:12 PM8/27/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Welcome home, Omowale Kperogi!
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: farooq...@gmail.com
Date: 27/08/2018 15:30 (GMT+00:00)
To: USAAfrica Dialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (Akin,
If this intellectually impoverished valorization of disciplinary insularity is your comeback, it's an admission that you can't vitiate the accuracy of my claims with the resources of scholarship. If anything, though, I'm delighted that you have
encountered other narratives that have disrupted the settled orthodoxy you've "dedicated your career to studying." The world out there is way more complex than the simplistic certainties you've habituated yourself to cherish, brother.
Best wishes,
Farooq
Farooq Kperogi, PhD
Associate Professor
Associate Professor
Journalism and Emerging Media
School of Communication & Media
Social Science Building Room 5092
402 Bartow Avenue
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw, GA 30144
Office phone: 470-578-7735
Fax: 470-578-9153
Cell: 404-573-9697
Website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter:@farooqkperogi
Sent from my 4G LTE Android device. Please forgive typos.
Office phone: 470-578-7735
Fax: 470-578-9153
Cell: 404-573-9697
Website: www.farooqkperogi.com
Twitter:@farooqkperogi
Sent from my 4G LTE Android device. Please forgive typos.
On Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 10:01 AM Akin Ogundiran <ogun...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 28, 2018, 2:50:13 AM8/28/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
While there is almost unanimity that Ogbomoso is the contraction of "Ogbori Elemoso", and that Ogunlola was its first Soun, there is not similar unanimity about Ogunlola's origins.
It is for example, also said that Ogunlola was born at Iresa (a settlement near Oyo-Ile) and actually named Soun Ogunsola, son of an Ibariba hunter and an iresa princess (the Aresa, ruler of Iresa was her father) who Ifa had predicted would have a great future. Soun himself became a great hunter, and used the killing of the Oyo troubler Elemoso to confirm his greatness. When he asked to resettle at Iresa, the Aresa, remembering the Ifa prediction, efused, saying "ki e je ki emi se temi nihin, ki awon ma see ti Soun loun" - whereupon Soun re-ssttled in the place that is now called Ogbomoso.
Now I understand why an Ibariba man would be called Ogunlola, and not Kperogi - his mother was from Iresa!
And there you have it. Fascinating oral history....
Bolaji Aluko
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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Aug 28, 2018, 4:33:11 AM8/28/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Thank you for the update. The situation explains the original thread that started this debate: why so many seemingly northern Ilorin citizens have Yoruba middle names: intermarriges coupled with continued Islamic conversion of Yoruba indigenes of course!
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Date: 28/08/2018 08:09 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
While there is almost unanimity that Ogbomoso is the contraction of "Ogbori Elemoso", and that Ogunlola was its first Soun, there is not similar unanimity about Ogunlola's origins.
It is for example, also said that Ogunlola was born at Iresa (a settlement near Oyo-Ile) and actually named Soun Ogunsola, son of an Ibariba hunter and an iresa princess (the Aresa, ruler of Iresa was her father) who Ifa had predicted would have a great
future. Soun himself became a great hunter, and used the killing of the Oyo troubler Elemoso to confirm his greatness. When he asked to resettle at Iresa, the Aresa, remembering the Ifa prediction, efused, saying "ki e je ki emi se temi nihin, ki awon ma
see ti Soun loun" - whereupon Soun re-ssttled in the place that is now called Ogbomoso.
Now I understand why an Ibariba man would be called Ogunlola, and not Kperogi - his mother was from Iresa!
And there you have it. Fascinating oral history....
Bolaji Aluko
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Salimonu Kadiri
Aug 28, 2018, 10:55:29 AM8/28/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
He who says that a cobra is a fictional earthworm needs to experience the venom from the serpent's bite in order to know the difference between a cobra and an earthworm. In fact, it is more fictional when Nigerians bear Arabic names and pretend to be Arabs and supper Muslims as if to say one cannot believe in Islam without bearing Arabic names.
S. Kadiri
Från: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> för Ibrahim Abdullah <ibdu...@gmail.com>
Skickat: den 26 augusti 2018 15:03
Till: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Ämne: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Skickat: den 26 augusti 2018 15:03
Till: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Ämne: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
yobanwo
Aug 28, 2018, 11:05:40 AM8/28/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
In some Jihad in the "South" flags were obtained for political legitimacy unlike Hausaland.
Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android Device
-------- Original message --------
From: farooq...@gmail.com
Date: 8/27/18 9:18 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: USAAfrica Dialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 28, 2018, 12:24:59 PM8/28/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Gloria:
Absolutely not....
Where oral records differ is deniability - I didn't say that, or that was not said or you must have heard differently or prove it was said at all - while a written record is there to see, for one to return to and go through line by line to COROBORATE with INDEPENDENT SOURCES for reasonable truthfulness.
And there you have it.
Bolaji Aluko
Agreed. Because a narrative is written down on paper or parchment or wherever-
does not automatically make it true.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Agree entirely with your views. There are many stories in the Bible that were orally presented and narrated for hundreds of years about ancient and lost cities before the Old testament was written down including the wall of Jericho (millenia) which archaeological finds have corroborated. The same with Egypt. Also Schllimans gold was discovered from descriptions in Homer which was an oral tale for centuries before it was written down.
Conversely the fact that written history is written does not mean that the significance of events ( which is really what differentiates stories from histories cannot be biased or falsified.
Oral narratives have to be PROVEN to be false before being dismissed as false. The fact they are not in mutually existing forms in contiguous shared histories is not sufficient grounds to dismiss them. Different cultures determine which events and memories to preserve and prioritize.
OAA
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Kwabena Akurang-Parry <kap...@hotmail.com>Date: 27/08/2018 13:40 (GMT+00:00)Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Pardon me, I have no idea what this is all about. But let me throw in this. Theoretically oral histories from different or coterminous states/societies don't necessarily have to be corroborative or complementary. Even oral history from the same family may be different because of memory and selectivity. Certainly, oral histories may be used to interrogate written sources on African history that tend to be lopsidedly laden with biased perspectives chronicled mostly by non-Africans in the precolonial and colonial periods. Absolutely, written sources have their hegemonic slant, while oral histories have their fluidity and mutability. Also oral histories have selectivity of detail and facts and may also conceal some aspects of lived-experiences for convenience instead of disclosure of neutral truth. Just a thought oh!Kwabena
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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Aug 28, 2018, 2:43:08 PM8/28/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
You have just paraphrased the problem non Christians have with the Christian Cannon. Outside the gospels of Matthew, Luke Paul and Mark nobody could independently vouch for the occurrence of the events.
This is why outside religious circles their truth value has attracted a question mark and they were written down. We could do internal comparison among the gospels and not outside of them. It is an internal story of a sect unlike the Old testament which
is the story of a NATION and their relations with others.
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Date: 28/08/2018 17:31 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (Gloria:
Absolutely not....
Where oral records differ is deniability - I didn't say that, or that was not said or you must have heard differently or prove it was said at all - while a written record is there to see, for one to return to and go through line by line to COROBORATE
with INDEPENDENT SOURCES for reasonable truthfulness.
And there you have it.
Bolaji Aluko
Agreed. Because a narrative is written down on paper or parchment or wherever-
does not automatically make it true.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Agree entirely with your views. There are many stories in the Bible that were orally presented and narrated for hundreds of years about ancient and lost cities before the Old testament was written down including the wall of Jericho (millenia) which archaeological finds have corroborated. The same with Egypt. Also Schllimans gold was discovered from descriptions in Homer which was an oral tale for centuries before it was written down.
Conversely the fact that written history is written does not mean that the significance of events ( which is really what differentiates stories from histories cannot be biased or falsified.
Oral narratives have to be PROVEN to be false before being dismissed as false. The fact they are not in mutually existing forms in contiguous shared histories is not sufficient grounds to dismiss them. Different cultures determine which events and memories to preserve and prioritize.
OAA
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: Kwabena Akurang-Parry <kap...@hotmail.com>Date: 27/08/2018 13:40 (GMT+00:00)Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
Pardon me, I have no idea what this is all about. But let me throw in this. Theoretically oral histories from different or coterminous states/societies don't necessarily have to be corroborative or complementary. Even oral history from the same family may be different because of memory and selectivity. Certainly, oral histories may be used to interrogate written sources on African history that tend to be lopsidedly laden with biased perspectives chronicled mostly by non-Africans in the precolonial and colonial periods. Absolutely, written sources have their hegemonic slant, while oral histories have their fluidity and mutability. Also oral histories have selectivity of detail and facts and may also conceal some aspects of lived-experiences for convenience instead of disclosure of neutral truth. Just a thought oh!Kwabena
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Harrow, Kenneth
Aug 28, 2018, 3:07:04 PM8/28/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
hi bolaji
i think the problem is deeper than you put it. on the surface you are right. but the supposition that in written form there can be appeal to some neutral/objective/more truth-carrying observation runs counter to einstein's relativity. or anyone's relativity. all discourses, no matter how fact-based they might seem, depend on the observer's way of seeing and presenting the facts.
i don't see the major difference between oral and written in terms of bias vs truth, where truth is better accessed by being able to 'fact-check" the written. consider the maniac trump, where facts quiver with each different source. rather, i think of oral as more performative, with written dissembling its performativity behind the mask of its format, i.e., the word on the page.
i recently read an account of the multiple different versions of Joyce's Ulysses, and when you are done with that you realize how impossible itis to speak of any "definitive" written version.
(sorry if i had any typos here....)
in the end, the real question is, what does it mean to get closer to the truth. in the case of wars, of archives, etc., we have either variants of perspectives/partisanship, or of authority, as derrida put it in Archive
Fever.
not arguing the point...just ruminating
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
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Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 28, 2018, 4:32:23 PM8/28/18
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OAA:
But even without corroboration, there can be various tests to establish A RING-OF-TRUTH in a story:
{1). Establishing who the author is or authors are. When that is anonymous, beware.
(2). establishing the integrity of the author. If he or she has produced other debunked records, beware.
(3). Interrogating the motive of the author, who clearly has expended energy to commit the record to writing, for himself and for posterity. If the motive is for propaganda - whether negative or positive propaganda - beware.
(4). The INTERNAL CONSISTENCY of the
Contents conveyed. Are they in the main consisent with human events, or are they just fantastic flights of miraculous fancy? If the stories are about super-villains or super-saints engaging in nether-world events, beware.
(5). Finally, does the record read like a STORY or a PHILOSOPHICAL LESSON? Beware of taking a lesson as a story.
That is how I read my Christian Bible and believe fully in it, that the compilers must have applied some, all and more of the tests above, with the proviso that some passages are stories while others are philosophical lessons (parables), and some passages are prescriptive (this is what the Christian God wants of you for all ages) while others are descriptive (this is how it was, and how God dealt with it at that time.)
And yes, while the New Testament's four Synoptic Gospels by the different authors Mathew, Mark, Luke (all written between AD 50 and 70, and John (written later between AD 85 and 90) have a corroborative value, the Old Testament's Pentsteuch has an internal consistency ring to it - Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus (written between 1400 and 1450 BC) and Deuteronomy, (written later between 1410 and 1395 BC) - all ascribed to Moses as the author, with help from Joshua in Deuteronomy to record how Moses died!
And there you have it. Non- Christians need not fret. Just believe!
Bolaji Aluko
Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 28, 2018, 4:32:23 PM8/28/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
You must have misinterpreted me, because I do not believe that the written word is truer than its spoken version. However the latter is more difficult to deny, and can be fact-checked!
By the way, another mail of mine - where I wrote about the Bible - crossed this posting of yours. Maybe the different versions of Ulysses - with all their annotationsnot- can be put to some word and passage separation tests, and the question asked: What is the motive for these differences?
Maybe...Homer anyone?
Bolaji Aluko
hi bolaji
i think the problem is deeper than you put it. on the surface you are right. but the supposition that in written form there can be appeal to some neutral/objective/more truth-carrying observation runs counter to einstein's relativity. or anyone's relativity. all discourses, no matter how fact-based they might seem, depend on the observer's way of seeing and presenting the facts.
i don't see the major difference between oral and written in terms of bias vs truth, where truth is better accessed by being able to 'fact-check" the written. consider the maniac trump, where facts quiver with each different source. rather, i think of oral as more performative, with written dissembling its performativity behind the mask of its format, i.e., the word on the page.
i recently read an account of the multiple different versions of Joyce's Ulysses, and when you are done with that you realize how impossible itis to speak of any "definitive" written version.
(sorry if i had any typos here....)
in the end, the real question is, what does it mean to get closer to the truth. in the case of wars, of archives, etc., we have either variants of perspectives/partisanship, or of authority, as derrida put it in Archive Fever.
not arguing the point...just ruminating
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 12:00:52 PM
Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 28, 2018, 6:36:05 PM8/28/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Aug 29, 2018, 6:01:21 AM8/29/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
"And there you have it. Non- Christians need not fret. Just believe!"Mobolaji Aluko
This is where the cookie crumbles. How would the believers in " fantastic flights of miraculous fancy" be ever challenged?
But I must confess that the guidelines you suggested were useful. Corroboration by" independent sources"
is a good suggestion. I take it that the independent sources must be completely outside the ring of believers
or the paradigm. Good luck with that!
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:46 PM
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OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Aug 29, 2018, 6:01:21 AM8/29/18
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And the Kantian "categories' that shape everything we perceive without which we cant even perceive anything, well before Einstein
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: "Harrow, Kenneth" <har...@msu.edu>
Date: 28/08/2018 20:07 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (hi bolaji
i think the problem is deeper than you put it. on the surface you are right. but the supposition that in written form there can be appeal to some neutral/objective/more truth-carrying observation runs counter to einstein's relativity. or anyone's relativity. all discourses, no matter how fact-based they might seem, depend on the observer's way of seeing and presenting the facts.
i don't see the major difference between oral and written in terms of bias vs truth, where truth is better accessed by being able to 'fact-check" the written. consider the maniac trump, where facts quiver with each different source. rather, i think of oral as more performative, with written dissembling its performativity behind the mask of its format, i.e., the word on the page.
i recently read an account of the multiple different versions of Joyce's Ulysses, and when you are done with that you realize how impossible itis to speak of any "definitive" written version.
(sorry if i had any typos here....)
in the end, the real question is, what does it mean to get closer to the truth. in the case of wars, of archives, etc., we have either variants of perspectives/partisanship, or of authority, as derrida put it in Archive
Fever.
not arguing the point...just ruminating
ken
kenneth harrow
professor emeritus
dept of english
michigan state university
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 12:00:52 PM
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Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 29, 2018, 6:55:02 AM8/29/18
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Gloria:
Gospel of John 20:24-29 (KJV) reads:
- 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
- 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
- 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then]came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.
- 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
- 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
- 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.
- And there you have it.
- Bolaji Aluko
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emea...@ccsu.edu> wrote:
"And there you have it. Non- Christians need not fret. Just believe!"Mobolaji Aluko
This is where the cookie crumbles. How would the believers in " fantastic flights of miraculous fancy" be ever challenged?
But I must confess that the guidelines you suggested were useful. Corroboration by" independent sources"
is a good suggestion. I take it that the independent sources must be completely outside the ring of believers
or the paradigm. Good luck with that!
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:46 PM
OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Aug 29, 2018, 9:50:45 AM8/29/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Thank you Bolaji:
On rubrics 3 & 5 the New Testament stands guilty as charged. They are to serve the propagandist interest of a religion and are not dispassionate narratives. The intent is clearly philosophical. Like most religions they are written in the aporetic codes.
You can choose to believe or not to believe since events cannot either be proven or disproven beyond all reasonable doubt.
OAA
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Date: 28/08/2018 21:38 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (OAA:
But even without corroboration, there can be various tests to establish A RING-OF-TRUTH in a story:
{1). Establishing who the author is or authors are. When that is anonymous, beware.
(2). establishing the integrity of the author. If he or she has produced other debunked records, beware.
(3). Interrogating the motive of the author, who clearly has expended energy to commit the record to writing, for himself and for posterity. If the motive is for propaganda - whether negative or positive propaganda - beware.
(4). The INTERNAL CONSISTENCY of the
Contents conveyed. Are they in the main consisent with human events, or are they just fantastic flights of miraculous fancy? If the stories are about super-villains or super-saints engaging in nether-world events, beware.
(5). Finally, does the record read like a STORY or a PHILOSOPHICAL LESSON? Beware of taking a lesson as a story.
That is how I read my Christian Bible and believe fully in it, that the compilers must have applied some, all and more of the tests above, with the proviso that some passages are stories while others are philosophical lessons (parables), and some passages
are prescriptive (this is what the Christian God wants of you for all ages) while others are descriptive (this is how it was, and how God dealt with it at that time.)
And yes, while the New Testament's four Synoptic Gospels by the different authors Mathew, Mark, Luke (all written between AD 50 and 70, and John (written later between AD 85 and 90) have a corroborative value, the Old Testament's Pentsteuch has an internal
consistency ring to it - Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus (written between 1400 and 1450 BC) and Deuteronomy, (written later between 1410 and 1395 BC) - all ascribed to Moses as the author, with help from Joshua in Deuteronomy to record how Moses died!
And there you have it. Non- Christians need not fret. Just believe!
Bolaji Aluko
Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Aug 29, 2018, 3:55:38 PM8/29/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Bolaj,
Too bad that you had to resort to preaching, innuendo and circular argumentation,
to make the case. The discussion was invigorating and promising - until blind faith and "miraculous fancy" stepped in and terminated the conversation.
One thing that we should learn from the current pedophilia scandal in the Church is that blind faith
in institutions, people, books, the clergy or even the pope, is not advisable.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:41 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:41 AM
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Mobolaji Aluko
Aug 30, 2018, 12:51:45 AM8/30/18
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Is it faith that you have an objection to - or blind faith?
In the passage that I provided, Jesus Christ did not csstigate Thomas for wishing to confirm the incidence of His resurrection by bodily evidence. Rather, He invitedThomas to do so - which challenge Thomas or may not have taken up, we are not told - but merely also said that those like us latter-day Christians who did not have Thomas' privilege would even be more blessed. We thank Him for that assurance.
As to pedophilia, I don't do it, blind faith or not. I don't even know how blind Faith got into this discussion. No person should have blind Faith in a human being, institutions or book. We ate asked to test every spirit:
1 John 4:1-3
11Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Unquote
I am preaching again....
But if our conversation is over because of something that I wrote, that is okay. It was good while it lasted - invigorating and promising. Nothing good lasts forever.
And there you have it.
Bolaj,
Too bad that you had to resort to preaching, innuendo and circular argumentation,
to make the case. The discussion was invigorating and promising - until blind faith and "miraculous fancy" stepped in and terminated the conversation.
One thing that we should learn from the current pedophilia scandal in the Church is that blind faith
in institutions, people, books, the clergy or even the pope, is not advisable.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:41 AM
OLAYINKA AGBETUYI
Aug 30, 2018, 6:32:44 PM8/30/18
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
I won't be surprised if I heard you retired into the priesthood which is not necessarily a bad idea. We all need to (And NOT have to) believe in something. But as for restricting divinity to Christ alone I would seek refuge with Okigbo and declare:
'Here are here the errors of the rendering.'
OAA.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------
From: Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Date: 30/08/2018 05:58 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: On the Matter of Yoruba in Northern Nigeria. (: NigerianID | Is Omarosa’s Maternal Heritage Nigerian?
This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (Is it faith that you have an objection to - or blind faith?
In the passage that I provided, Jesus Christ did not csstigate Thomas for wishing to confirm the incidence of His resurrection by bodily evidence. Rather, He invitedThomas to do so - which challenge Thomas or may not have taken up, we are not told
- but merely also said that those like us latter-day Christians who did not have Thomas' privilege would even be more blessed. We thank Him for that assurance.
As to pedophilia, I don't do it, blind faith or not. I don't even know how blind Faith got into this discussion. No person should have blind Faith in a human being, institutions or book. We ate asked to test every spirit:
1 John 4:1-3
11Dear
friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.2This
is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but
every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
Unquote
I am preaching again....
But if our conversation is over because of something that I wrote, that is okay. It was good while it lasted - invigorating and promising. Nothing good lasts forever.
And there you have it.
Bolaj,
Too bad that you had to resort to preaching, innuendo and circular argumentation,
to make the case. The discussion was invigorating and promising - until blind faith and "miraculous fancy" stepped in and terminated the conversation.
One thing that we should learn from the current pedophilia scandal in the Church is that blind faith
in institutions, people, books, the clergy or even the pope, is not advisable.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com <usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mobolaji Aluko <alu...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:41 AM
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