Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me — American Ebola patient

[msjo...@aol.com]

This is one perfect instance when  the good doctor could have demonstrated his faith to the world he is addressing.  However, he failed to do so by not refusing to be medically cured.   He agreed to be  flown out of Liberia to a specialized hospital in Atlanta, Georgia, USA.  Did he not believe the  omnipotent God will cure anywhere?  How many other patients in Africa were given this drug? Are the specialists who treated the doctor agreeing that Zmapp had nothing to do with his  recovery?   God is not  in conflict with medical cure.

I am a Christian,  an unwavering believer in the existence of God,  Spiritual Gifts, Spiritual  dimensions, and the role of faith in personal and public lives. The balance is holistic - body, mind and soul. Unfortunately, when people go to extremes to shun intellectual and scientific inquiries in favor of subjective experiences as objective truths, these manifestations drive many away from the church.  Then, the believer becomes an obstacle to those who may genuinely seek answers. 

Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved his Resurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities.

There is a remarkable difference between stubborn resistance and genuine doubts. It is legitimate (not stubborn disbelief) to inquire. There were times when society looked  to the church for answers to the thorniest questions and challenges of the day.  The rigor, scrutiny, study and thoughtful exploration of the  historical, philosophical, scientific and pragmatic foundations of Christianity equipped teachers of the Gospel to  competently convey the message to the curious, lost, and oppressed.  In deed, spiritual leaders have used the pulpit as a mirror to society.

Today, it is a common  fashion to  hear people simply express their feelings with  “The Holy Spirit confirmed the Gospel to me,”  “miracles changed my life so the Gospel is true," or "a prophet said such and such. " While some these  experiences may be true and it may be irrational to argue about someone's experiences, these highly subjective tidings  cannot be held as the standard of  objective Truth since not everybody in similar circumstances will experience the same thing, if it happened in the first place.  The need to  promote one's personal experiences at the exclusion of all else  frowns at inquiry into Christian history, doctrine, and philosophy as “academic” and basically unspiritual.

Apostles Paul and Peter would strongly disagree.  One of my favorite moments in the Acts of the Apostles was when Paul engaged the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers in Athens, a town where both residents and foreigners spent their time doing nothing more than listening to, and discussing, the latest ideas.

Those who think inquiry is entirely  unbiblical  should look to the first-rate argumentation in 1 and 2 Corinthians,  Romans and other letters to understand that Paul made use of his intellectual faculties to incisively communicate the Gospel to all, incorporating the background of the audience.  In 1 Corinthians 15:3, he  appealed to evidence as the basis for the Gospel, not subjective instincts or feelings that cannot be empirically verified.  This does not  contradict the Bible.  Sometimes, people may choose selective scriptures  and their own interpretations to justify their peculiarities.  If people are  holy as claimed,  should that not be evident by their behaviors? Jesus did not have a religion and Christianity is what you do. If that is not evident, expressions of the Holy Spirit to someone else may even confuse the listener.

Peter insightfully delivered  sermons characterized by evidence-based testimony about the fact of Jesus’ Resurrection, not how God improved his life.  Today, the contrary is in vogue, self-centered. People simply seek the miraculous for self.  I don't know where I can find the passages in the Bible, including one that I do not have to pay my debts; it will disappear.

Thank God Dr. Kent Brantly is cured. His conduct, agreeing to the best and expensive medical care  but declaring to the world that medical care did not cure him,  is dangerous to those who may not know better. I hope Christians do not neglect due care while praying. Dr. Brantly is lucky to have resources available to him; others do not and are quarantined, some without proper nutrition. 

While we pray for the stricken,  let us do something for the victims and prevent more incidence.

MsJoe

God, not Zmapp, cured me — American Ebola patient

August 24, 2014 by Bayo Akinloye 32 Comments

| credits: dailymail.co.uk

The American doctor, Kent Brantly, who contracted Ebola Virus Disease in Liberia has attributed his recovery from the deadly virus to God and not to the experimental Zmapp drug used in treating him.

After being discharged from the Emory University Hospital in the United States of America, Dr. Brantly made his first public statement since contracting Ebola in Liberia almost a month ago, thanking God for his survival.

In a video posted online on Friday, he began by sharing how he and his family came to be in Liberia as medical missionaries who moved to West Africa because “God called us to serve the people of Liberia.”

According to him, on July 23, his life took an “unexpected turn” when he contracted the deadly virus.

“Today is a miraculous day. I am thrilled to be alive, to be well and to be reunited with my family. As I lay in bed in Liberia for the following nine days, getting sicker and weaker each day, I prayed that God would help me be faithful, even in my illness,” he said.

“And I prayed that in my life or in my death that he would be glorified. I did not know then, but have learned since, that there were thousands, maybe even millions of people around the world praying for me throughout that week and even till today.

“I cannot thank you enough for your prayers and your support, but what I can tell you is that I serve a faithful God who answers prayers.”

While Brantly thanked the medical staff in the isolation unit at Emory hospital, he believed his survival was a “direct answer to thousands and thousands of prayers”.

In an earlier statement from his isolation room, the doctor thanked “God for His mercy” and noted “God often leads us to unexpected places.”

According to Brantly, “God saved my life”.

More than 1,300 people have been killed by the virus in West Africa alone, and the number is growing at a considerable rate.

More than 2,473 people have contracted the disease, more than the previous 24 Ebola outbreaks combined, according to the World Health Organisation.

It has a mortality rate of 90 per cent, and has been declared a global health emergency.

A team of five infectious disease experts and 21 nurses worked around the clock to provide care for Brantly, and while he took a moment to hug each at the end of the briefing, he credited God for being an important part of his recovery.

“Above all, I am forever thankful to God for sparing my life,” he said.

“Please continue to pray for Liberia and the people of West Africa.”

Also, the President, Samaritan’s Purse,a religious charity organisation, Franklin Graham, ascribed the doctor’s faith in God for his speedy recovery.

“Today I join all of our Samaritan’s Purse team around the world in giving thanks to God as we celebrate Dr. Kent Brantly’s recovery from Ebola and release from the hospital. His faithfulness to God and compassion for the people of Africa have been an example to us all,” he stated.

Brantly and American nurse who also contracted EVD Nancy Writebol, were given one of only five courses available of the experimental drug.

The pair split the dose before being moved to the US from Liberia.

To Lead You Must be a Servant

-----Original Message-----
From: Divine Rhyme hitt...@yahoo.com [camnetwork] <camne...@yahoogroups.com>
To: camnetwork <camne...@yahoogroups.com>; cameroon_politics <cameroon...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Aug 24, 2014 4:11 am
Subject: Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me — American Ebola patient

 

Hello Maitre Tumasang,

This is the misinformation which the vulnerable and naive take to mean that prayers alone without  medication of any type  will cure people of any disease. These kind of people believe and disbelieve the word of God at the same time. I wonder how that works. God's ways are not our ways as the Bible says. He might give us His helping hand but in a way we might never understand or expect. So how difficult is it for these people to think that the discovery of a successful drug could just be God's way to help us? There are many things that happen to us in life which could be God's ways to help us solve a problem. I remember a long ago I was taking my brother's eldest daughter who was just about 4 years old at the time  to Garoua. At Nkongbou, i.e after Santa from Bamenda there was a landslide that caused mud and rocks to fall from the side of the road rendering that part of the road impassable at that point, and so vehicles from Bamenda had to divert and use the old road.. Our driver of the commercial  Peugeot 504 that carried us, like all the others also chose to use that old stretch of road(i.e the road used before the present Bamenda-Baffoussam road was constructed) nearby. So we had to climb a small hill and then descend a very rough part of the road to rejoin the new road further down. Everybody was asked to go out of the vehicle as the driver prepared to descend the rough road. I asked him if I could leave the child inside and he said that won't be a problem. But then just as he wanted to accelerate to go down hill something I could not explain snapped in my mind and I just  I decided that I'd better take the child out. Just a short way down, as the car was bumping up and down on that road (I don't think anybody  had used it -  probably for the last ten or so years), the driver lost control and the car flipped over on its side but miraculously completely overturned and regained its wheels and continued its rough descent down the hill.  Well, not knowing what to make of it we followed down the hill hoping to see the driver badly injured or even dead. But miraculously there was nothing wrong with the car and even the driver did not have as much a tiny scratch on his body! But the most surprising thing was my decision  just at the nick of time to snatch the child from the vehicle as the driver was ready to begin his bumpy descent.  What could have happened to a child that small riding in a vehicle bouncing like a football on the road and then somersaulting like a Chinese acrobat to regain its wheels?

This was a miracle so far as I was concerned. And I did not even have to pray for it! There was no time for it any and even so,  my religious faith at that time in my life - like most my age at the time, (Late teen-age years) did not include making prayers to God.  But God in his mysterious ways intervened in my life just only in a way He alone can.

So the drug helped this good Doctor and he knows it. But everything we do, whether discovering drugs to cure diseases, snatching babies from vehicles that will soon tumble over, postponing a flight only to learn the plane one had to travel in crashed etc., etc.,  - all these are God's ways in intervening in or lives. Praying before boarding a flight might not neccesarily stop a crash. Death whichever way it comes is still God's plan for us. 

What I am saying here is that believers like this Good Doctor, while believing in God's power and willingness to help us in our most desperate moments must encourage others to try every means to help themselves since they might not really know which way God might use to help us. A drug during our sickness might just be God's choice to help us! His ways are not our ways! Can we believe this then then deny it again  in one breath?

FEN

On Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:59 AM, "Martin Tumasang tuma...@hotmail.com [camnetwork]" <camne...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

There is a cataclysmic cosmic war going on and the spawn of Lucifer are out to win as many souls as possible for Lucifer. Social media is their weapon. They are slick, persistent and even reasonable. Great words do they speak and write and greater wonders shall they perform but be not fooled. It is not a debate. It is a war on behalf of their principal-Lucifer.

God, not Zmapp, cured me — American Ebola patient

August 24, 2014 by Bayo Akinloye 32 Comments

| credits: dailymail.co.uk

The American doctor, Kent Brantly, who contracted Ebola Virus Disease in Liberia has attributed his recovery from the deadly virus to God and not to the experimental Zmapp drug used in treating him.

After being discharged from the Emory University Hospital in the United States of America, Dr. Brantly made his first public statement since contracting Ebola in Liberia almost a month ago, thanking God for his survival.

In a video posted online on Friday, he began by sharing how he and his family came to be in Liberia as medical missionaries who moved to West Africa because “God called us to serve the people of Liberia.”

According to him, on July 23, his life took an “unexpected turn” when he contracted the deadly virus.

“Today is a miraculous day. I am thrilled to be alive, to be well and to be reunited with my family. As I lay in bed in Liberia for the following nine days, getting sicker and weaker each day, I prayed that God would help me be faithful, even in my illness,” he said.

“And I prayed that in my life or in my death that he would be glorified. I did not know then, but have learned since, that there were thousands, maybe even millions of people around the world praying for me throughout that week and even till today.

“I cannot thank you enough for your prayers and your support, but what I can tell you is that I serve a faithful God who answers prayers.”

While Brantly thanked the medical staff in the isolation unit at Emory hospital, he believed his survival was a “direct answer to thousands and thousands of prayers”.

In an earlier statement from his isolation room, the doctor thanked “God for His mercy” and noted “God often leads us to unexpected places.”

According to Brantly, “God saved my life”.

More than 1,300 people have been killed by the virus in West Africa alone, and the number is growing at a considerable rate.

More than 2,473 people have contracted the disease, more than the previous 24 Ebola outbreaks combined, according to the World Health Organisation.

It has a mortality rate of 90 per cent, and has been declared a global health emergency.

A team of five infectious disease experts and 21 nurses worked around the clock to provide care for Brantly, and while he took a moment to hug each at the end of the briefing, he credited God for being an important part of his recovery.

“Above all, I am forever thankful to God for sparing my life,” he said.

“Please continue to pray for Liberia and the people of West Africa.”

Also, the President, Samaritan’s Purse,a religious charity organisation, Franklin Graham, ascribed the doctor’s faith in God for his speedy recovery.

“Today I join all of our Samaritan’s Purse team around the world in giving thanks to God as we celebrate Dr. Kent Brantly’s recovery from Ebola and release from the hospital. His faithfulness to God and compassion for the people of Africa have been an example to us all,” he stated.

Brantly and American nurse who also contracted EVD Nancy Writebol, were given one of only five courses available of the experimental drug.

The pair split the dose before being moved to the US from Liberia.

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[Segun Ogungbemi]

"The American doctor, Kent Brantly, who contracted Ebola Virus Disease in Liberia has attributed his recovery from the deadly virus to God and not to the experimental Zmapp drug used in treating him.

After being discharged from the Emory University Hospital in the United States of America, Dr. Brantly made his first public statement since contracting Ebola in Liberia almost a month ago, thanking God for his survival."

“Today is a miraculous day. I am thrilled to be alive, to be well and to be reunited with my family. As I lay in bed in Liberia for the following nine days, getting sicker and weaker each day, I prayed that God would help me be faithful, even in my illness,” he said.

“And I prayed that in my life or in my death that he would be glorified. I did not know then, but have learned since, that there were thousands, maybe even millions of people around the world praying for me throughout that week and even till today.

“I cannot thank you enough for your prayers and your support, but what I can tell you is that I serve a faithful God who answers prayers.”

I respect the unflinching faith of Dr. Kent Brantly  in his God but for him to deny that Zmapp drug did not cure him is probably false. 

If Zmapp drug did not cure him,  why was he not cured by his God on his sickbed in Liberia before the rescue mission that flew him to Emory University, Atlanta? 

He claimed to have prayed to his God while in Liberia and if that God has such a curative device, why did he not apply it on all the  Ebola victims who died? 

Perhaps one is not really clear of what Dr. Brantly meant by saying that Zmapp drug did not cure him. Maybe he needs to tell the rest of the world what he meant by that statement. He needs to inform the world whether indeed Zmapp drug was never used in treating him against Ebola virus disease. Or was his illness from a different contagious disease and not Ebola? And people  simply assumed it was Ebola?

 Maybe the Doctors who treated him never revealed the kind of drug used for his recovery for certain medical reasons. 

These are some of the issues that have to be investigated before any moral or ethical judgment can be made on Doctor Brantly's statement that it was God who cured him and not Zmapp drug.  

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D

Professor of Philosophy

Adekunle Ajasin University

Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State

Nigeria

Cellphone: 08033041371

                   08024670952

[Segun Ogungbemi]

"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."

As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that  "Jesus is a philosopher".  Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions. 

No evidence that he resurrected apart from what his disciples wrote because they were yearning for such miraculous story to confound the world. Celsius, one of the first critics of Jesus event did not find any records supporting his death and resurrection outside what his disciples wrote. One cannot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing. 

The Bible is not an authentic historical record but a collection of stories about Jewish religious beliefs.

 It is not a scientific or an academic record of events that can stand intellectual scrutiny. 

Paul was against philosophical questions and that is why he denounced any rational inquiry as foolishness. 

Issues dealing with a God who is all-knowing, all-good, all-powerful and yet he cannot help human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics is errant nonsense. 

One can believe anything one chooses can be of help to one in life however stupid it may be, as long as one does not impose it on others like Boko Haram sect. 

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D

Professor of Philosophy

Adekunle Ajasin University

Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State

Nigeria

Cellphone: 08033041371

                   08024670952

On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."

As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that  "Jesus is a philosopher".  Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.  

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

Agreed, Segun.

There is also the veiled message and assumption, that
those who died from the disease were not as favored by God as he was.

This is a selfish bout of ingratitude, self congratulation and narcissism that could indirectly
wipe out populations. The suggestion is clear. Pray to God and ebola will spare you.
.
Who is this man working for?


Professor Gloria Emeagwali
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [segun...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 3:20 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

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[Ibrahim Abdullah]

For God! Who else can it be?

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

Grave Diggers Inc, for starters.

GE

Professor Gloria Emeagwali
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ibrahim Abdullah [ibdu...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 7:26 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

For God! Who else can it be?

On 24 Aug 2014 23:02, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu<mailto:emea...@mail.ccsu.edu>> wrote:
Agreed, Segun.

There is also the veiled message and assumption, that
those who died from the disease were not as favored by God as he was.

This is a selfish bout of ingratitude, self congratulation and narcissism that could indirectly
wipe out populations. The suggestion is clear. Pray to God and ebola will spare you.
.
Who is this man working for?


Professor Gloria Emeagwali

africahistory.net<http://africahistory.net>
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos<http://vimeo.com/user5946750/videos>

Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com> [usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [segun...@gmail.com<mailto:segun...@gmail.com>]

Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 3:20 PM

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

"The American doctor, Kent Brantly, who contracted Ebola Virus Disease in Liberia has attributed his recovery from the deadly virus to God and not to the experimental Zmapp drug used in treating him.
After being discharged from the Emory University Hospital in the United States of America, Dr. Brantly made his first public statement since contracting Ebola in Liberia almost a month ago, thanking God for his survival."
"Today is a miraculous day. I am thrilled to be alive, to be well and to be reunited with my family. As I lay in bed in Liberia for the following nine days, getting sicker and weaker each day, I prayed that God would help me be faithful, even in my illness," he said.
"And I prayed that in my life or in my death that he would be glorified. I did not know then, but have learned since, that there were thousands, maybe even millions of people around the world praying for me throughout that week and even till today.
"I cannot thank you enough for your prayers and your support, but what I can tell you is that I serve a faithful God who answers prayers."

I respect the unflinching faith of Dr. Kent Brantly in his God but for him to deny that Zmapp drug did not cure him is probably false.
If Zmapp drug did not cure him, why was he not cured by his God on his sickbed in Liberia before the rescue mission that flew him to Emory University, Atlanta?
He claimed to have prayed to his God while in Liberia and if that God has such a curative device, why did he not apply it on all the Ebola victims who died?
Perhaps one is not really clear of what Dr. Brantly meant by saying that Zmapp drug did not cure him. Maybe he needs to tell the rest of the world what he meant by that statement. He needs to inform the world whether indeed Zmapp drug was never used in treating him against Ebola virus disease. Or was his illness from a different contagious disease and not Ebola? And people simply assumed it was Ebola?
Maybe the Doctors who treated him never revealed the kind of drug used for his recovery for certain medical reasons.
These are some of the issues that have to be investigated before any moral or ethical judgment can be made on Doctor Brantly's statement that it was God who cured him and not Zmapp drug.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

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[kenneth harrow]

dear segun
i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:

Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.^[199] The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36 Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.^[203][204] In Luke 23:7–15 Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.^[205][206] Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,^[207] but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,^[205] who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".^[207]

Observing a Passover custom of the time, Pilate allows one prisoner chosen by the crowd to be released. He gives the people a choice between Jesus and a murderer called Barabbas. Persuaded by the elders (Matthew 27:20), the mob chooses to release Barabbas and crucify Jesus.^[208] Pilate writes a sign that reads "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (abbreviated as INRI in depictions) to be affixed to Jesus' cross (John 19:19),^[209] then scourges Jesus and sends him to be crucified. The soldiers place a Crown of Thorns on Jesus' head and ridicule him as the King of Jews. They beat and taunt him before taking him to Calvary,^[210] also called Golgotha, for crucifixion.^{[195][199][211]}

^{When you write that pontius pilate "handed him over to the jews who accused him of crimes," you leave the reader to infer two things, that become points of accusation against jews for 2 thousand years. First, that the condemnation of jesus by "the jews" must have represented the initial act of jewish malevolence against christians--forgetting that jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews, that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews, all of whom were ruled by the romans. and secondly, you somehow omit that after the trial, jesus was taken by the romans who then crucified him.}

^{it is a small point, but if you were a jew, a member of a community whom christians have accused of being "christ-killers" for 2 millenium, you might have reflected on those points before writing them.
i know that wasn't really central to  your point, but it is a fact that very easily hatred for the jews for killing christ returns on the public stage.
ken}

On 8/24/14 6:13 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:

"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."

As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that  "Jesus is a philosopher".  Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions. 

No evidence that he resurrected apart from what his disciples wrote because they were yearning for such miraculous story to confound the world. Celsius, one of the first critics of Jesus event did not find any records supporting his death and resurrection outside what his disciples wrote. One cannot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing. 

The Bible is not an authentic historical record but a collection of stories about Jewish religious beliefs.

 It is not a scientific or an academic record of events that can stand intellectual scrutiny. 

Paul was against philosophical questions and that is why he denounced any rational inquiry as foolishness. 

Issues dealing with a God who is all-knowing, all-good, all-powerful and yet he cannot help human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics is errant nonsense. 

One can believe anything one chooses can be of help to one in life however stupid it may be, as long as one does not impose it on others like Boko Haram sect. 

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D

Professor of Philosophy

Adekunle Ajasin University

Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State

Nigeria

Cellphone: 08033041371

                   08024670952

On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."

As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that  "Jesus is a philosopher".  Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.  

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-- 
kenneth w. harrow 
faculty excellence advocate
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michigan state university
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619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
har...@msu.edu

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

The man is a missionary doctor is he not? Missionaries work for God. The doctor works for God through some agency- religious organization. It is pointless to challenge or disagree with the "God not Zmapp cured me" claim. Not everyone who catches the Ebola virus develops the full blown disease or dies. Why is this so? Who/what gets credit in such a case- genes, God, Kola nuts, luck, natural immunity, weak virus strain? We will never know for sure.
The doctor's claim implies that Emory University Hospital was not instrumental to his cure. That must be a stretch for many people. Some believers though would disagree because they also believe that while God is omnipresent, He seems to heal the sick better and sooner in some institutions and parts of the world than others. Would God have healed the doctor him if he remained in West Africa? Again we will never know.

oa

-----Original Message-----
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 6:02 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

[Chika Onyeani]

Recent Articles

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[Anunoby, Ogugua]

Must one “regard” oneself as a philosopher to be one? Is one a philosopher by self-proclamation, trade, and/or accreditation? Who is a philosopher I wonder.

SO makes an interesting point when he argues that the Bible may not be used to justify Bible accounts and claims. The question arises who are the intended audience for the said justification? If the audience is one of believers, there is acceptance that the Bible self-justifies itself. If the audience is one of non-believers and other sceptics, credible independent collaboration may be necessary.  

SO is right when he claims that there are no (I would say known) non-biblical records of the resurrection of  Jesus. That is not to say that Jesus’ resurrection did not happen. The event might have happened and was only recorded in the Bible. Prudence necessitates that one be hesitant to categorically state that Jesus’ “resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples”

There may indeed be an “all knowing, all good, all powerful” God. If human beings are not wholly privy to his creation purpose, they may not let their frustration and ignorance get the better of them. God not helping “human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics” may not be “errant nonsense” He alone knows why He does not. There is such a thing as tough-love is there not? To know purpose is to understand design.

 

oa

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi

Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 5:13 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

--

[Segun Ogungbemi]

Thanks Ken. You are right, my focus was not on the details the way you have narrated it. You know the Jewish leaders accused Jesus of many wrong doings, for instance, working on the Sabbath, calling himself the Son of God among others. Jesus did not renounce Judaism which was his religion. Rather he claimed that his assignment was to fulfill the law, the Torah. 

My intention is not to incite any sentiment against any group or ethnicity. 

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D

Professor of Philosophy

Adekunle Ajasin University

Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State

Nigeria

Cellphone: 08033041371

                   08024670952

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

"There is such a thing as tough - love is there not?" OA

Unfortunately, though, every atrocity on the planet - past, present and future- can be justified
by the above statement.

So Biko may be right of all . (Biko. I Write what I Like, p. 43.)

Professor Gloria Emeagwali
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anunoby, Ogugua [Anun...@lincolnu.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 12:31 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

Must one “regard” oneself as a philosopher to be one? Is one a philosopher by self-proclamation, trade, and/or accreditation? Who is a philosopher I wonder.
SO makes an interesting point when he argues that the Bible may not be used to justify Bible accounts and claims. The question arises who are the intended audience for the said justification? If the audience is one of believers, there is acceptance that the Bible self-justifies itself. If the audience is one of non-believers and other sceptics, credible independent collaboration may be necessary.
SO is right when he claims that there are no (I would say known) non-biblical records of the resurrection of Jesus. That is not to say that Jesus’ resurrection did not happen. The event might have happened and was only recorded in the Bible. Prudence necessitates that one be hesitant to categorically state that Jesus’ “resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples”
There may indeed be an “all knowing, all good, all powerful” God. If human beings are not wholly privy to his creation purpose, they may not let their frustration and ignorance get the better of them. God not helping “human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics” may not be “errant nonsense” He alone knows why He does not. There is such a thing as tough-love is there not? To know purpose is to understand design.

oa
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 5:13 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
No evidence that he resurrected apart from what his disciples wrote because they were yearning for such miraculous story to confound the world. Celsius, one of the first critics of Jesus event did not find any records supporting his death and resurrection outside what his disciples wrote. One cannot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing.
The Bible is not an authentic historical record but a collection of stories about Jewish religious beliefs.
It is not a scientific or an academic record of events that can stand intellectual scrutiny.
Paul was against philosophical questions and that is why he denounced any rational inquiry as foolishness.
Issues dealing with a God who is all-knowing, all-good, all-powerful and yet he cannot help human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics is errant nonsense.
One can believe anything one chooses can be of help to one in life however stupid it may be, as long as one does not impose it on others like Boko Haram sect.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com<mailto:segun...@gmail.com>> wrote:
"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
--
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[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

'....jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews,
that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews.'

- and the Bible, an effective tome of Jewish nationalism and ethnic politics.

Professor Gloria Emeagwali
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:41 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

dear segun
i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:

Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7–15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

Observing a Passover custom of the time, Pilate allows one prisoner chosen by the crowd to be released. He gives the people a choice between Jesus and a murderer called Barabbas<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas>. Persuaded by the elders (Matthew 27:20<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Matthew#27:20>), the mob chooses to release Barabbas and crucify Jesus.[208]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009400.E2.80.93401-216> Pilate writes a sign that reads "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (abbreviated as INRI<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI> in depictions) to be affixed to Jesus' cross (John 19:19<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#19:19>),[209]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBrown198893-217> then scourges Jesus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation_of_Christ> and sends him to be crucified. The soldiers place a Crown of Thorns<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Thorns> on Jesus' head and ridicule him as the King of Jews. They beat and taunt him before taking him to Calvary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary>,[210]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Senior-218> also called Golgotha, for crucifixion.[195]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEvans2003487.E2.80.93500-203>[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207>[211]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009402-219>

When you write that pontius pilate "handed him over to the jews who accused him of crimes," you leave the reader to infer two things, that become points of accusation against jews for 2 thousand years. First, that the condemnation of jesus by "the jews" must have represented the initial act of jewish malevolence against christians--forgetting that jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews, that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews, all of whom were ruled by the romans. and secondly, you somehow omit that after the trial, jesus was taken by the romans who then crucified him.

it is a small point, but if you were a jew, a member of a community whom christians have accused of being "christ-killers" for 2 millenium, you might have reflected on those points before writing them.
i know that wasn't really central to your point, but it is a fact that very easily hatred for the jews for killing christ returns on the public stage.
ken

On 8/24/14 6:13 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
No evidence that he resurrected apart from what his disciples wrote because they were yearning for such miraculous story to confound the world. Celsius, one of the first critics of Jesus event did not find any records supporting his death and resurrection outside what his disciples wrote. One cannot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing.
The Bible is not an authentic historical record but a collection of stories about Jewish religious beliefs.
It is not a scientific or an academic record of events that can stand intellectual scrutiny.
Paul was against philosophical questions and that is why he denounced any rational inquiry as foolishness.
Issues dealing with a God who is all-knowing, all-good, all-powerful and yet he cannot help human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics is errant nonsense.
One can believe anything one chooses can be of help to one in life however stupid it may be, as long as one does not impose it on others like Boko Haram sect.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com<mailto:segun...@gmail.com>> wrote:

"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
--
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--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839

har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>

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[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

'....jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews,
that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews.'

- and the Bible, an effective tome of Jewish nationalism and ethnic politics.


Professor Gloria Emeagwali
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:41 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

dear segun
i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:

Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

A good freind has even written a book – Le Treizième Disciple / in Swedish “Den trettonde lärjungen"/   The 13^th Disciple (Judas)  reviewed here . In the early seventies  - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves’ “King Jesus” and his follow-up to that “The Nazarene Gospel Restored” but I still haven’t got round to reading  Claude’s version, since  Jesus is not one of my priorities.

However,  this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and  drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem,  “ This is my blood : drink!” ?

A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?

Only asking

We Sweden

[kenneth harrow]

no, th bible came after jesus; hundreds of years after, written by his
disciples who were creating christianity.
as far as ethnic, you'd need to define that pretty closely since jews,
even at the time of jesus, were probably far too spread out to be
constituted as a closed ethnic community. i imagine this, since i am not
a scholar of tht period. but jews of babylon were very far removed from
those of egypt, and they created different talmudic traditions, spoke
different languages, etc.
k

On 8/25/14 9:47 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
> '....jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews,
> that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews.'
>
> - and the Bible, an effective tome of Jewish nationalism and ethnic politics.
>
>
> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> africahistory.net
> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:41 PM
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>
> dear segun
> i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
> here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:
>

> Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

[kenneth harrow]

hi cornelius
it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
is that right, cornelius?
so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.

is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
ken

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Professor Harrow,

 Nice try but no cigar.  As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, “Lord have Mercy!”

Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.

There is Ginzberg’s “The Legends of The Jews”

However, concerning Torah and history and man’s place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins – not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam’s side while Adam was in deep sleep?

The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins:

“We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man’s mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah’s narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, “The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us.”

Over here this sort of thing happens...

Holy mother of god!

And the Hindus say, “Holy cow!”

[Emmanuel Babatunde]

Go ahead Gloria with the political hermeneutics of the deep forment of ethnitcity in the bible.

 

Emmanuel Babatunde

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (emea...@mail.ccsu.edu) Add cleanup rule | More info

'....jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews,
 that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews.'

    -   and the Bible,  an effective tome of Jewish nationalism and ethnic politics.


Professor Gloria Emeagwali
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 10:41 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

dear segun
i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:

Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

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(484) 365-7545

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

Is the Bible not in two parts- the old and new testaments? The books of the old testament was written before Jesus, the books of the new testament after him. The books of the new testament were written within a hundred years of the death of Jesus- by his contemporaries including apostles and other followers.
The Bible as one book- a collection of books more appropriately, was put together hundreds of years after Jesus by the Bishops of what became the Catholic Church.

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[kenneth harrow]

well, i think i am close to your presentation. i said the torah isn't really a history book (inthe contemporary sense), and you say the same below. the purposes of the torah, well, every commentator over the centuries will have a different answer. if you are saying there is only one correct jewish answer, that, to me, is like saying, there are only the laws, not some of the laws.
but the laws contain rules about stoning your son to death if he is disobedient, .... and if you don't want that one, i can cite too many others that make no sense to people today.
we have to read it in our own fashion, or at least ibelieve that is the case. rashi must have been a very nice man, but let him read torah in his own way, and i will continue in my own.
and listen to yours as well,
ken

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

As a Selassie I Rastafarian tells it “We must have something to believe in” says he ( in the footsteps of Peter and Paul) – even a holy religious idea, a founding myth, national mythology, and not merely crossing the red sea on the Mayflower or the founding  fathers and mothers  landing on the Eastern shores of the promised land,

Not the phantasmagoria of Dante or Sheikh Speare

but a charter of man’s mission in the universe will make them Arabs scared and not only about all the unoccupied territory to the West of the Euphrates River or about world domination (the light will spread from Jerusalem etc)  - world domination not only on earth but even beyond planet earth (this world), the moon, stars, other worlds ( no wonder all this space exploration and “the conquest of Space”  perchance the treasures you first  may find and annex up there – and  what can we learn from any of the advanced aliens that we may come in contact with ? History marches on relentlessly...

I was visited by the power and the glory

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[kenneth harrow]

dear ogugua
are you sure they were written within a hundred years after jesus's death?
is that canonical dogma or history?
what i mean is, whose history? is it accepted scholarly history?
i went to the gospel to find out, and here is what wiki said:

The gospels were apparently composed in stages. Mark's traditional ending (Mark 16:9–20, see Mark 16) was most likely composed early in the 2nd century and appended to Mark in the middle of that century.^[27] The birth and infancy narratives apparently developed late in the tradition.^[28] Luke and Matthew may have originally appeared without their first two chapters.^[28]

The consensus among biblical scholars is that all four canonical gospels were originally written in Greek, the lingua franca of the Roman Orient.^{[29][30][31][32][33]}

Dating

Estimates for the dates when the canonical gospel accounts were written vary significantly; and the evidence for any of the dates is scanty. Because the earliest surviving complete copies of the gospels date to the 4th century and because only fragments and quotations exist before that, scholars use higher criticism to propose likely ranges of dates for the original gospel autographs. Scholars variously assess the majority (though not the consensus ^[34]) view as follows:

i think we had a posting some time ago by moses where he indicated the role of faith in questions of this sort, that we can make a distinction between what we feel called to believe, and not feel bound to what scientific claims might be. it is a very ticklish issue, and only a careful parsing of the question will give us something more than straight dogmatic answers.

i'm glad this isn't my field. anyone who has studied it might wish to enlighten us. but i am a born skeptic, so when i hear that the bible became canonical 4 centuries after the various pieces were composed, then i find it very hard to believe in any literal account that it was in fact the actual disciples who wrote them at first.
ken

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, “The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us.”CH


I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.

Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria
with the same argument?

Empire builders have a lot in common.

What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He would definitely have challenged the
above statement. May his soul rest in peace.






Professor Gloria Emeagwali
CT 06050

africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

Professor Harrow,

Nice try but no cigar. As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, “Lord have Mercy!”

Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.

There is Ginzberg’s “The Legends of The Jews”<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&gs_l=serp.12...15312.15964.0.18224.2.2.0.0.0.0.49.96.2.2.0....0...1c.1.52.serp..1.1.48.>

However, concerning Torah and history and man’s place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins – not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam’s side while Adam was in deep sleep?

The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:

“We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man’s mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah’s narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, “The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us.”

Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...

Holy mother of god!

And the Hindus say, “Holy cow!”




On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
hi cornelius
it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
is that right, cornelius?
so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.

is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
ken
On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:

A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book – Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish “Den trettonde lärjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves’ “King Jesus” and his follow-up to that “The Nazarene Gospel Restored” but I still haven’t got round to reading Claude’s version, since Jesus is not one of my priorities.

However, this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Pesach+Seder+> /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem, “ This is my blood : drink!”<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A25-28&version=ESV> ?

A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?

Only asking

We Sweden<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/>

On Monday, 25 August 2014 06:07:35 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear segun
i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:

Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7–15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

Observing a Passover custom of the time, Pilate allows one prisoner chosen by the crowd to be released. He gives the people a choice between Jesus and a murderer called Barabbas<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas>. Persuaded by the elders (Matthew 27:20<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Matthew#27:20>), the mob chooses to release Barabbas and crucify Jesus.[208]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009400.E2.80.93401-216> Pilate writes a sign that reads "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (abbreviated as INRI<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI> in depictions) to be affixed to Jesus' cross (John 19:19<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#19:19>),[209]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBrown198893-217> then scourges Jesus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation_of_Christ> and sends him to be crucified. The soldiers place a Crown of Thorns<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Thorns> on Jesus' head and ridicule him as the King of Jews. They beat and taunt him before taking him to Calvary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary>,[210]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Senior-218> also called Golgotha, for crucifixion.[195]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEvans2003487.E2.80.93500-203>[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207>[211]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009402-219>

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[Cornelius Hamelberg]

I am not going to argue with you.

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[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

You don't have a case. If you do, prove it.


Professor Gloria Emeagwali

africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 10:25 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

I am not going to argue with you.



On Tuesday, 26 August 2014 04:01:25 UTC+2, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, “The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us.”CH


I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.

Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria
with the same argument?

Empire builders have a lot in common.

What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He would definitely have challenged the
above statement. May his soul rest in peace.






Professor Gloria Emeagwali
CT 06050

africahistory.net<http://africahistory.net>
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos<http://vimeo.com/user5946750/videos>

Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx> [usaafric...@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx><mailto:usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>.

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

I feel confident that the original books of the new testament were written as I stated below. What may be true also is that the original books were over time, “edited” to serve some agenda or predetermined purpose. It is true that not all written accounts of the life of Jesus and his work made it into the Christian Bible (CB)- apocryphal books. It is widely believed for example that some group (church leaders-Bishops) chose which books to include or exclude in the volume that became the CB for reasons that include suspected dubious authenticity. The selected books were believed by the Bishops to be divinely inspired.

There was no CB as we know it today before the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. This point is sometimes made by some Catholics when some Protestants criticize them for not reading the CB and being solely guided by it as Protestant do and claim to be respectively. The Catholics say that the Catholic church predates the CB. She put it together after about two centuries of existence. The Catholic church they argue need not be a Bible church as some Protestant churches seem to be proud to be.

 

oa

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[kenneth harrow]

to lend more fire to your claims, gloria, how was the west "won," in the
u.s., if not by the sword and the glory of god giving us the divine
right, the manifest destiny. don't you think putin took the crimea back
because god gave it to russia, and krushchev just sold it down the
river. the examples are endless. we are dealing with humans who take
what they can by force, and ALWAYS justify it on some higher principle.
it is enough to be very discouraged in human kind.
i like soyinka's world view, to look in the face of the other, the one
who died that dawn on the road, and to see in it one's brother, oneself
boko harem is really scary these days, but in fact, they too are the
ones soyinka is seeing on the road. and if we can't quite get there,
then what makes our rationalization any better than others'?
moses would rightly accuse the self-righteous liberal as saying i accept
everyone, and those who aren't like me have to be forced to see things
my way.
enough for now
ken

On 8/25/14 10:01 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
> 'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."CH
>
>
> I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.
>
> Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria
> with the same argument?
>
> Empire builders have a lot in common.
>
> What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He would definitely have challenged the
> above statement. May his soul rest in peace.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> CT 06050
> africahistory.net
> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>
>
> Professor Harrow,
>
> Nice try but no cigar. As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, "Lord have Mercy!"
>
> Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.
>
> There is Ginzberg's "The Legends of The Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&gs_l=serp.12...15312.15964.0.18224.2.2.0.0.0.0.49.96.2.2.0....0...1c.1.52.serp..1.1.48.>
>

> However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?

>
> The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:
>
> "We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."
>
> Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...
>
> Holy mother of god!
>
> And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> hi cornelius
> it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
> must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
> is that right, cornelius?
> so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.
>
> is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
> ken
> On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>

> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading Claude's version, since Jesus is not one of my priorities.

>
> However, this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Pesach+Seder+> /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem, " This is my blood : drink!"<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A25-28&version=ESV> ?
> A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?
>
> Only asking
>
> We Sweden<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/>
>
>
> On Monday, 25 August 2014 06:07:35 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> dear segun
> i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
> here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:
>

> Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

[Segun Ogungbemi]

Yes Gloria. Val Ojo would have given a critical challenge.
God at no time gave anyone a peace of land anywhere. Human beings are characteristically adventurous and any place they occupy, the name of God or Deity is used to justify its exploitation.
God never called anyone for anything.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

> On Aug 26, 2014, at 3:01 AM, "Emeagwali, Gloria (History)" <emea...@mail.ccsu.edu> wrote:
>
> 'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."CH
>
>
> I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.
>
> Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria
> with the same argument?
>
> Empire builders have a lot in common.
>
> What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He would definitely have challenged the
> above statement. May his soul rest in peace.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Professor Gloria Emeagwali
> CT 06050
> africahistory.net
> vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
> Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>
>
> Professor Harrow,
>
> Nice try but no cigar. As our dearly departed Brother Val Ojo - May his soul rest in perfect peace - as he sometimes used to cry, "Lord have Mercy!"
>
> Just this little one thing: You still leave the congregation with angst, divided and with more than three opinions, suffering confusions, disagreements, and much doubt.
>
> There is Ginzberg's "The Legends of The Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&gs_l=serp.12...15312.15964.0.18224.2.2.0.0.0.0.49.96.2.2.0....0...1c.1.52.serp..1.1.48.>
>

> However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?

>
> The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:
>
> "We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."
>
> Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...
>
> Holy mother of god!
>
> And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> hi cornelius
> it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
> must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
> is that right, cornelius?
> so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.
>
> is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
> ken
> On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>

> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading Claude's version, since Jesus is not one of my priorities.

>
> However, this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Pesach+Seder+> /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem, " This is my blood : drink!"<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A25-28&version=ESV> ?
> A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?
>
> Only asking
>
> We Sweden<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/>
>
>
> On Monday, 25 August 2014 06:07:35 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> dear segun
> i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
> here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:
>

> Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Gloria in excelsis etc,

We Didn't Land On Plymouth Rock; the rock was landed on us (Malcolm)

This is what Jesus of Nazareth is alleged to have said with reference to the Scribes and Pharisees who wanted “proof”:  

“And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, this is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.”

 Do you have any queries about Joshua 1: 3-6

“I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. ⁴ Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates—all the Hittite country—to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. ⁵ No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. ⁶ Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their ancestors to give them “

Your problem is that you believe that the prophecy, God’s words, His promise is irrelevant and I guess you want proof of its fulfilment, either here or in the here-after  in heaven or the other place. Girl, you want to relegate the Almighty’s word to the level of the tooth fairy?

Like I just told you, I’m not going to argue with you. (And by the way, I’m reliably informed that Boko means “false” - such as false education (wrong knowledge)

And how do you like this ?

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx><mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>.

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

CH,
You are entitled to your belief and faith but do not complain when
rival, irrational bigots and religionists such as Isis and Boko Haram follow your trail and justify their atrocities
using your argument and mode of thinking.


GE

________________________________
From: Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 9:34 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Cc: cornelius...@gmail.com; Emeagwali, Gloria (History)

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

Gloria in excelsis etc,

We Didn't Land On Plymouth Rock; the rock was landed on us<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=we+didn%27t+land+on+Plymouth+Rock%2C+the+Rock+was+landed+on+us&oq=we+didn%27t+land+on+Plymouth+Rock%2C+the+Rock+was+landed+on+us&gs_l=serp.12..35i39.10693.31616.0.33743.9.8.1.0.0.0.69> (Malcolm)

This is what Jesus of Nazareth is alleged to have said with reference to the Scribes and Pharisees who wanted “proof”:

“And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, this is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.”

Do you have any queries about Joshua 1: 3-6<http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15785>

“I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. 4 Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates—all the Hittite country—to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. 5 No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. 6 Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their ancestors to give them “

Your problem is that you believe that the prophecy, God’s words, His promise is irrelevant and I guess you want proof of its fulfilment, either here or in the here-after in heaven or the other place. Girl, you want to relegate the Almighty’s word to the level of the tooth fairy?

Like I just told you, I’m not going to argue with you. (And by the way, I’m reliably informed that Boko means “false” - such as false education (wrong knowledge)

And how do you like this<http://www.memritv.org/content/en/country.htm?country=iraq> ?

On Tuesday, 26 August 2014 04:34:42 UTC+2, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
You don't have a case. If you do, prove it.


Professor Gloria Emeagwali

africahistory.net<http://africahistory.net>
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos<http://vimeo.com/user5946750/videos>
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>]

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 10:25 PM

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>

Cc: Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

I am not going to argue with you.



On Tuesday, 26 August 2014 04:01:25 UTC+2, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, “The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us.”CH


I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.

Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria
with the same argument?

Empire builders have a lot in common.

What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He would definitely have challenged the
above statement. May his soul rest in peace.






Professor Gloria Emeagwali
CT 06050

africahistory.net<http://africahistory.net><http://africahistory.net>
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos<http://vimeo.com/user5946750/videos><http://vimeo.com/user5946750/videos>

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx><mailto:usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx><https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>>.

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

"God at no time gave anyone a piece of land anywhere."

SO

Why is SO emphatically sure? Is he suggesting that the Genesis account in the Hebrew Bible that states God pulled Abraham from Ur in the Chaldees to a new land God set out for him and his descendants is not true? Is he suggesting the dispossession of Canaanites' of their land by Israelites was not carrying out God's will because the land was a gift to then by God? Is SO debunking the claims of some Muslim Jihadists to parts of the world they call Muslim lands- Caliphates? Does SO not know that a "chosen people" are entitled to a divine gift of some other people's land- promised land? My goodness!! Until God speaks, we do not know for sure.
More seriously, land grabbers will always find excuses and other pretexts to practice their trades of greed and exclusion. The pilgrim fathers (U.S.) and the pioneer Dutch settlers of the Cape region of South Africa claimed that the settled lands they occupied were God's gift to them. Israel was established as a Jewish state. Many orthodox Jews in today's Israel continue to claim God gave them the land of Palestine. Many Hindus insist that India is a Hindu and not a secular country. ISIS is following a well-travelled road. Why not one may ask?

oa

> Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENis
> wonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-F

> OOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to
> Herod to be
> tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarte
> r2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to
> Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive
> robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to
> Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENisw
> onger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and
> announces that he has "not found this man
> guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECar
> ter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>
>
> Observing a Passover custom of the time, Pilate allows one prisoner
> chosen by the crowd to be released. He gives the people a choice
> between Jesus and a murderer called
> Barabbas<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas>. Persuaded by the
> elders (Matthew
> 27:20<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Matt
> hew#27:20>), the mob chooses to release Barabbas and crucify
> Jesus.[208]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomb
> erg2009400.E2.80.93401-216> Pilate writes a sign that reads "Jesus of
> Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (abbreviated as
> INRI<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI> in depictions) to be affixed
> to Jesus' cross (John

> 19:19<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John
> #19:19>),[209]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBr

> own198893-217> then scourges
> Jesus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation_of_Christ> and sends
> him to be crucified. The soldiers place a Crown of
> Thorns<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Thorns> on Jesus' head
> and ridicule him as the King of Jews. They beat and taunt him before
> taking him to
> Calvary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary>,[210]<http://en.wikipedi
> a.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Senior-218> also called Golgotha, for

> crucifixion.[195]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOT
> EEvans2003487.E2.80.93500-203>[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
> #cite_note-Holman608-207>[211]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite
> _note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009402-219>
>

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

That is the point GE- the hypocrisy. It is alright when I do it. It is not when you do.
It is amazing how many who remind us of the sayings credited to Jesus are disregardful or perhaps oblivious of Jesus' many condemnations of hypocrisy. As the Igbo say, what use is it disagreeing with a dreamer's account of a dream they claim they had? You did not have the dream with them. You expect them however to accept your account of a dream you claim you had.
The poor and the weak of the world continue to be the hapless victims of the hypocrisy in domestic and foreign affairs that shape some of the domestic and foreign policies' posture of some powerful countries. Precedents can be dangerous and may have a sad poignancy. Once done by one, any other one may do it.
The convenient trade in morality fallacies should be recognized for what they are, especially when they advance self-interest at the expense of others. We are the good guys, they are the bad guys when in fact all the guys are good and bad depending on what they believe is at stake.

oa

-----Original Message-----
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 9:35 AM
To: Cornelius Hamelberg; usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

CH,
You are entitled to your belief and faith but do not complain when rival, irrational bigots and religionists such as Isis and Boko Haram follow your trail and justify their atrocities using your argument and mode of thinking.


GE

________________________________
From: Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 9:34 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Cc: cornelius...@gmail.com; Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient


Gloria in excelsis etc,

We Didn't Land On Plymouth Rock; the rock was landed on us<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=we+didn%27t+land+on+Plymouth+Rock%2C+the+Rock+was+landed+on+us&oq=we+didn%27t+land+on+Plymouth+Rock%2C+the+Rock+was+landed+on+us&gs_l=serp.12..35i39.10693.31616.0.33743.9.8.1.0.0.0.69> (Malcolm)

This is what Jesus of Nazareth is alleged to have said with reference to the Scribes and Pharisees who wanted "proof":

"And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, this is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."

Do you have any queries about Joshua 1: 3-6<http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15785>

"I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. 4 Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates--all the Hittite country--to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. 5 No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. 6 Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their ancestors to give them "

However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?

The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:

"We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."

Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...

Holy mother of god!

And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"




On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
hi cornelius
it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
is that right, cornelius?
so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.

is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
ken
On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:

A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading Claude's version, since Jesus is not one of my priorities.

However, this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Pesach+Seder+> /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem, " This is my blood : drink!"<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A25-28&version=ESV> ?
A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?

Only asking

We Sweden<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/>


On Monday, 25 August 2014 06:07:35 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
dear segun
i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:

Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

[Moses Ebe Ochonu]

Ken,

Actually, to "self-righteous" (your word), I would add naive as another adjective to describe my favorite boogeyman, the white avuncular, do-good liberal.

But seriously, I'm puzzled by your invocation of Soyinka here. Have you actually read what Soyinka has been saying about Boko Haram and about violent Islamist groups over the years? His view on the subject does not align with your expansive and extrapolatory reading of The Man Died at all. Maybe he evolved, maybe he is, like most of us, keenly aware of the evil, intolerance, and murderous hate which reside in the minds of many humans and how such evil is justified with ideology and religious fever. He is, of course, not very kind to Christian extremists, but over the last twenty years, his views on Islamic extremism, especially of the violent variety, has been consistently unsparingly strident. Why do you think he got a death sentence/fatwa placed on him a few years ago? He offered a scathing assessment of Boko Haram, and the group threatened him with death. So, I doubt that Soyinka would look at Boko Haram members in the way you suggested. He has called them, rightly in my opinion, murderous brutes whose ideology does not belong to and is incompatible with Nigeria's (and the world's) de facto ecumenism. 

I know you want to find meaning and humanity in and beneath everything. Sometimes it is offensive to do so, no matter how noble the intent may be. Sometimes I wish you understood Hausa. Why? So that I will send you links to some of Shekau's youtube videos (I'm still depressed from the one released yesterday). Without rehashing its grisly details, I believe firmly that if you listened to and understood (preferably in the Hausa/Kanuri original) two of Shekau's video rants and watched the footage that accompany them, you'd be scared out of this naive assumption that everyone is a valuable Other who should be reasoned with--you'd be scared into a sober acknowledgement of the fact that there are gradations of evil and aggression and that some people's ideology and modus operandi do not entitle them to the dignity of sympathetic understanding. Understanding, yes (I write on the need for that myself). Sympathetic understanding and empathy, no!

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:23 PM, kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu> wrote:

to lend more fire to your claims, gloria, how was the west "won," in the u.s., if not by the sword and the glory of god giving us the divine right, the manifest destiny. don't you think putin took the crimea back because god gave it to russia, and krushchev just sold it down the river. the examples are endless. we are dealing with humans who take what they can by force, and ALWAYS justify it on some higher principle.
it is enough to be very discouraged in human kind.
i like soyinka's world view, to look in the face of the other, the one who died that dawn on the road, and to see in it one's brother, oneself
boko harem is really scary these days, but in fact, they too are the ones soyinka is seeing on the road. and if we can't quite get there, then what makes our rationalization any better than others'?
moses would rightly accuse the self-righteous liberal as saying i accept everyone, and those who aren't like me have to be forced to see things my way.
enough for now
ken

On 8/25/14 10:01 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:

'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."CH


I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.

Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them.  Who is to stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria
with the same argument?

Empire builders have a lot in common.

What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing  mind. He would definitely have challenged the
above statement. May his soul rest in peace.






Professor Gloria Emeagwali
CT 06050
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com [usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com]

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM

To: usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com

To post to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
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--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839

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There is enough in the world for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed.


---Mohandas Gandhi

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

This forum misses Val Ojo already. This is an indication of the measure of the man.

oa

> Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENis
> wonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-F

> OOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to
> Herod to be
> tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarte
> r2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to
> Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive
> robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to
> Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENisw
> onger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and
> announces that he has "not found this man
> guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECar
> ter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>
>
> Observing a Passover custom of the time, Pilate allows one prisoner
> chosen by the crowd to be released. He gives the people a choice
> between Jesus and a murderer called
> Barabbas<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas>. Persuaded by the
> elders (Matthew
> 27:20<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Matt
> hew#27:20>), the mob chooses to release Barabbas and crucify
> Jesus.[208]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomb
> erg2009400.E2.80.93401-216> Pilate writes a sign that reads "Jesus of
> Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (abbreviated as
> INRI<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI> in depictions) to be affixed
> to Jesus' cross (John

> 19:19<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John
> #19:19>),[209]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBr

> own198893-217> then scourges
> Jesus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation_of_Christ> and sends
> him to be crucified. The soldiers place a Crown of
> Thorns<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Thorns> on Jesus' head
> and ridicule him as the King of Jews. They beat and taunt him before
> taking him to
> Calvary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary>,[210]<http://en.wikipedi
> a.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Senior-218> also called Golgotha, for

> crucifixion.[195]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOT
> EEvans2003487.E2.80.93500-203>[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
> #cite_note-Holman608-207>[211]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite
> _note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009402-219>
>

[kenneth harrow]

but gloria, if i may, don't you think americans use the same logic all
the time? every member of congress, every president, evokes god, god
bless america, we are doing this or doing that because it is what god
would want. no one more than bush, who let slip after 9/11 that ours was
a crusade against evil, i.e., muslims.
the crusading mentality is pure america, beginning with baseball games
when people put their hands over their hearts at the national anthem,
and sing, you guessed it, god bless america.

On 8/26/14 10:35 AM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
> CH,
> You are entitled to your belief and faith but do not complain when
> rival, irrational bigots and religionists such as Isis and Boko Haram follow your trail and justify their atrocities
> using your argument and mode of thinking.
>
>
> GE
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 9:34 AM
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
> Cc: cornelius...@gmail.com; Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient
>
>
> Gloria in excelsis etc,
>
> We Didn't Land On Plymouth Rock; the rock was landed on us<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=we+didn%27t+land+on+Plymouth+Rock%2C+the+Rock+was+landed+on+us&oq=we+didn%27t+land+on+Plymouth+Rock%2C+the+Rock+was+landed+on+us&gs_l=serp.12..35i39.10693.31616.0.33743.9.8.1.0.0.0.69> (Malcolm)
>
> This is what Jesus of Nazareth is alleged to have said with reference to the Scribes and Pharisees who wanted "proof":
>
> "And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, this is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."
>
> Do you have any queries about Joshua 1: 3-6<http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15785>
>

> "I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. 4 Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates--all the Hittite country--to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. 5 No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. 6 Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their ancestors to give them"

> However, concerning Torah and history and man's place in history, the introduction to Genesis begins - not with the question, do you really believe (your leap in faith and understanding) that The Almighty Who Can Do All things, who made heaven and earth and all the planets, pulled Eve out of a rib in Adam's side while Adam was in deep sleep?

>
> The Stone Chumash introduction to Genesis begins<http://www.amazon.com/dp/0899060145/ref=rdr_ext_tmb>:
>
> "We begin the study of the Torah with the realisation that the Torah is not a history book, but the charter of Man's mission in the universe. Thus, in his first comment, Rashi cites Rav Yitzchak who says that since the Torah is primarily a book of laws, it should have begun with the commandment of the new moon (Exodus 12.2), the first law that was addressed to all Jewry as a nation. He explains that the reason for the Torah's narrative of Creation is to establish that God is the Sovereign of the universe: He declared to His people the power of His works in order to give them the heritage of the nations (Psalm 111.6). If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."
>
> Over here this sort of thing<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/?p=19334> happens...
>
> Holy mother of god!
>
> And the Hindus say, "Holy cow!"
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, 25 August 2014 19:34:33 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> hi cornelius
> it seems i preface my answers often with, i am not an expert in this. so, ancient religions: i taught a bit in the intro humanities course here at michigan state; read some of the standard histories of religion. i used to know a bit, and having read ancient history for that class developed a small feel for what rings relatively true in historical claims. there was no uniformity of practice in ancient cults or religions. i believe that if you were to ask me what beliefs yoruba people have or had concerning ogun, the only real answer would have to be, depends on which city or region you are talking about.
> must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
> is that right, cornelius?
> so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.
>
> is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
> ken
> On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>

> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading Claude's version, since Jesus is not one of my priorities.

>
> However, this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Pesach+Seder+> /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem, " This is my blood : drink!"<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A25-28&version=ESV> ?
> A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?
>
> Only asking
>
> We Sweden<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/>
>
>
> On Monday, 25 August 2014 06:07:35 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> dear segun
> i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
> here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:
>

> Taking Jesus to Pilate's Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus, accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus and Pilate. In John 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John#18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does not unequivocally deny being the King of the Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Luke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes under the jurisdiction of Herod Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to Herod to be tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENiswonger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and announces that he has "not found this man guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

To be honest Ochonu, I prefer the white avuncular, do-good liberal any day to the
callous, conceited, pro-eugenics, neo-con bigots who would wipe out half of humanity with
a virus progrom - in a flash.

G


________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Moses Ebe Ochonu [meoc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 10:03 AM
To: USAAfricaDialogue

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

Ken,

Actually, to "self-righteous" (your word), I would add naive as another adjective to describe my favorite boogeyman, the white avuncular, do-good liberal.

But seriously, I'm puzzled by your invocation of Soyinka here. Have you actually read what Soyinka has been saying about Boko Haram and about violent Islamist groups over the years? His view on the subject does not align with your expansive and extrapolatory reading of The Man Died at all. Maybe he evolved, maybe he is, like most of us, keenly aware of the evil, intolerance, and murderous hate which reside in the minds of many humans and how such evil is justified with ideology and religious fever. He is, of course, not very kind to Christian extremists, but over the last twenty years, his views on Islamic extremism, especially of the violent variety, has been consistently unsparingly strident. Why do you think he got a death sentence/fatwa placed on him a few years ago? He offered a scathing assessment of Boko Haram, and the group threatened him with death. So, I doubt that Soyinka would look at Boko Haram members in the way you suggested. He has called them, rightly in my opinion, murderous brutes whose ideology does not belong to and is incompatible with Nigeria's (and the world's) de facto ecumenism.

I know you want to find meaning and humanity in and beneath everything. Sometimes it is offensive to do so, no matter how noble the intent may be. Sometimes I wish you understood Hausa. Why? So that I will send you links to some of Shekau's youtube videos (I'm still depressed from the one released yesterday). Without rehashing its grisly details, I believe firmly that if you listened to and understood (preferably in the Hausa/Kanuri original) two of Shekau's video rants and watched the footage that accompany them, you'd be scared out of this naive assumption that everyone is a valuable Other who should be reasoned with--you'd be scared into a sober acknowledgement of the fact that there are gradations of evil and aggression and that some people's ideology and modus operandi do not entitle them to the dignity of sympathetic understanding. Understanding, yes (I write on the need for that myself). Sympathetic understanding and empathy, no!

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:23 PM, kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>> wrote:
to lend more fire to your claims, gloria, how was the west "won," in the u.s., if not by the sword and the glory of god giving us the divine right, the manifest destiny. don't you think putin took the crimea back because god gave it to russia, and krushchev just sold it down the river. the examples are endless. we are dealing with humans who take what they can by force, and ALWAYS justify it on some higher principle.
it is enough to be very discouraged in human kind.
i like soyinka's world view, to look in the face of the other, the one who died that dawn on the road, and to see in it one's brother, oneself
boko harem is really scary these days, but in fact, they too are the ones soyinka is seeing on the road. and if we can't quite get there, then what makes our rationalization any better than others'?
moses would rightly accuse the self-righteous liberal as saying i accept everyone, and those who aren't like me have to be forced to see things my way.
enough for now
ken

On 8/25/14 10:01 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."CH


I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.

Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria
with the same argument?

Empire builders have a lot in common.

What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He would definitely have challenged the
above statement. May his soul rest in peace.






Professor Gloria Emeagwali
CT 06050

africahistory.net<http://africahistory.net>
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos<http://vimeo.com/user5946750/videos>

Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com> [usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com<mailto:cornelius...@gmail.com>]

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com<mailto:segun...@gmail.com>> wrote:

"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
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kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824

ph. 517 803 8839<tel:517%20803%208839>
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There is enough in the world for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed.


---Mohandas Gandhi

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[Anunoby, Ogugua]

MEO,

What about the white , equity-hating, ever-money-hungry, unrepentant, inequality driving, shameless, war-mongering, right wing ideologues whose stock-in-trade seems to be continuing to make the world a more dangerous place for all but themselves. They are my favorite bogeymen.

oa

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[kenneth harrow]

hi moses
i was thinking of soyinka's poem, "Death in the Dawn," where soyinka invokes the traveler who comes upon the accident: the sacrifice to the road, the one who died in the motor accident. you remember how much of his early work was informed with that incredible figure, The Road, the giant trees like gods who were cut down and loaded onto trucks, and then the gods demanding sacrifice. at the end of that poem, that great poem really, soyinka looks into the face of the one who died, and sees himself.
i cut my teeth as a younger person joining the struggle where we opposed oppressive systems, from racism to colonialism to apartheid, and then to vietnam, and so on.
i had pretty clear notions of what i stood for, and against.
it isn't that i no longer believe in  those ideals, but that i want to be able to put myself in the shoes of those whose political position is one i oppose. i just want to be able to see the world as they do.
not out of "sympathetic" understanding--although it is in the more literal sense of the word sym-pathos, feeling with?--but simply not to reject them as belonging to humanity as i do.
i don't want to dehumanize them, no matter how repugnant i find their actions or words or deeds.
i am as disturbed as the next person by atrocities committed by the bombers and arrogant self-righteous killers, be they pilots or drones or suicide bombers. in an earlier period they were bourreaux, executioners. the enemy. or, the torturers.
i believe you that boko haram espouses a hateful rhetoric.
but i also imagine they are human, have their reasons, have their supporters, and all that i want to understand.
i don't think i suggested anything that soyinka would find objectionable: i don't ask anyone to support boko haram, or not to oppose them.
history has its footnotes, that some, or almost everyone doesn't know. here's one for you.
many years ago i became president of the african literature association. it was the year soyinka came out in support of rushie who had been condemned to death by fatwa by the ayatollah khomeini. soyinka had the decency and courage to stand against the fatwa. as a reward, he was himself threatened with death by the muslim extremists in nigeria. it appeared in the press.
i made a motion that the ala express its support for soyinka. the executive was fearful about taking such a position; i remember the opposition. i lost my temper and said if that motion was not accepted, i would resign as president. steve arnold made me sit down, and we talked it out--and adopted the position.
i have a pretty good idea of soyinka's politics when it comes to muslim extremism, i believe.
i am still trying to understand how we can deal with it politically, without being reduced to their level. and without simply replicating its causes.
best
ken

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com]

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ph. 517 803 8839

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[Moses Ebe Ochonu]

Agreed, OA, agreed. No argument here. It's a no brainer, as the Americans would say. But the way I see it is that there are already so many people taking on the "white, equity-hating, ever-money-hungry, unrepentant, inequality driving, shameless, war-mongering, right wing ideologues whose stock-in-trade seems to be continuing to make the world a more dangerous place for all but themselves." I would rather direct my critical energy towards the beloved figure of the benign paternal white liberal, who tries to humanize us (unlike his (neo)conservative brethren) but often does so by inadvertently robbing us of our rational agency and personhood (warts and all) and instead ascribes all that is wrong with us to external, European forces. It is my job to sometimes say to them, Africans are capable of evil, too--that we are just like everybody else, with a mixture of good, bad, and in-betweens, and that we don't need too much cuddling and protection.

[Moses Ebe Ochonu]

Of course, Gloria, of course. White avuncular liberal types are actually friends. They empathize with us, share our issues, try to know us and what makes us tick, and they are LARGELY harmless, although it would be great if they didn't rationalize, romanticize, and infantilize us so much and instead hold us to the same standard as they do their own people, government, and conditions. These guys are our friends. That's why we like to correct, poke fun at, and debate them.

The "callous, conceited, pro-eugenics, neo-con bigots who would wipe out half of humanity with a virus program" I would not even go near. There is no basis for engagement with such types. They may not even see you as a fully-formed human worthy of engagement, so I would not touch them with a barge pole.

Anyway, Ken knows I'm trying to get under his skin a bit by taking swipes at my white liberal boogeyman, who can sometimes irritate with his do-good, peace-to-the-earth attitude, which occludes reality and avoids making honest un-PC calls.

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[kenneth harrow]

i think there is one quality of the liberal which matters--not the politics, per se; not even the avuncular attitude (which i fear adopting, especially at my age). no, there is one reason why it gets under my skin, as moses says, to be thought of as a liberal, one quality of the liberal which is, as moses says, in a way worse than all those other qualities cited from the really violent, powerful, and dangerous types listed by ogugua and gloria so well.
it is that the liberal espouses and purveys an epistemology, call it a world view if you like, that presents itself as naturally the only possible, only correct, only virtuous one. it is a world-view built on enlightenment values that derive from a european world perspective, but which sees itself as universal, and is, ideologically, blind to its own constructedness and to its own ethnocentricity
it is the dominant, naturalized, normalized doctrines of the west; the one that says, say to africans, be civilized like us.
or worse,it says: i understand you, but if you were better educated you'd understand your weaknesses and become like us.

it is the inevitable pattern that colonialism had deployed, a paternalism, that came to dominate all disciplines in the academy, and which mudimbe would describe as inevitably inscribed on all those who enter into modernity, african or european. it is all there in his Invention of AFrica and Idea of Africa. it is not a mystery!

i imagine another way to think about values, and i put it in my book Trash; i imagine a perspective of values that looks at the world from a different place on the hierarchy of values--a place i call from below, but it is only "below" in relation to the dominant ideological position. not on any absolute scale at all. to the contrary!

it isn't simply a question, then, of african or european, as is so often represented in our list, but of dominant versus alternative or progressive or oppositional, although the more dominant is present, even in opposition, the more it frames the epistemology. so we need to take a more radical stance, one that espouses something so buried in the barrels of worthlessness in the eyes of dominant ideology, that it can free us from the oppressive structures of thought. it has to be trash. i don't see any other way.

i hope that makes small sense as to how i see myself in radical opposition to liberalism, even as i prefer its humanism to the ugliness of those who advocate "state terrorism" or its enemies, the boko harams and isis types.
but i don't want its humanism to dupe me. if i did, if we did, we'd have to accept the rest: its epistemology, and inevitably, its notions of superior and inferior, with all that that implies.
ken

har...@msu.edu

[Segun Ogungbemi]

My dear AO,
I am very emphatic that God did not give any land to anyone or any tribe including Abram and Israelites. Human beings apportioned lands to themselves wherever they go and used the name of God to rubber-stamp the claim of ownership.
What happened to Abram in Ur of Chaldea was an economic disaster that affected pastoralists of the region. Their animals were dying because there was no rain. So as a reasonable entrepreneur he quickly ran away from the scene of danger. Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land? It does sound to reason.
What would you say if the Yoruba go to an Igbo community and say God has given their land to them? You are making God to be the source of conflict and war. Is that what one should believe?
Those who wrote the Bible did so from their narrow and parochial interests without considering the moral implications of their views.
Secondly, God did not choose any tribe as his own. Let me tell you that the event that Moses recorded couldn't be something that happened during his lifetime. Moses was born in Egypt when his people were slaves. They were slaves there for about 430 years. Moses did not know Abram/Abraham. It was after they left Egypt that he wrote the Pentateuch.
On a moral ground, to say that God loves a tribe or a nation more than the rest of the world is to make him an immoral Being. If he knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone.
More importantly, to say that the Jews are beloved by God more than Africans and rest of the world is to create hatred for the Jews wherever they are.
How many Africans were involved in the canonization of the Bible? It was done by a handful white Bishops. What if the Bible were canonized by Africans? Do you think it would be the way it is? They would have removed various parts of the Bible to suit their interest.
God by definition cannot be a Being of immorality, injustice, conflicts and wars.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

>> Paul was against philosoot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing.

> .
>

[Chossan]

Another reason to be wary of white liberals bearing gifts is precisely because they claim to be on the side of the angels. We know the road to hell is paved with good intentions. 

Sent from my iPhone

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

Just as there are different types of liberals so, too, are there various types of conservatives.
Justin Quinn identifies six types: neocons,social cons, paleocons, fiscal cons, cultural cons and 'crunchy' cons.


Moses can best identify the different type of liberals.


GE



________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:32 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

i think there is one quality of the liberal which matters--not the politics, per se; not even the avuncular attitude (which i fear adopting, especially at my age). no, there is one reason why it gets under my skin, as moses says, to be thought of as a liberal, one quality of the liberal which is, as moses says, in a way worse than all those other qualities cited from the really violent, powerful, and dangerous types listed by ogugua and gloria so well.
it is that the liberal espouses and purveys an epistemology, call it a world view if you like, that presents itself as naturally the only possible, only correct, only virtuous one. it is a world-view built on enlightenment values that derive from a european world perspective, but which sees itself as universal, and is, ideologically, blind to its own constructedness and to its own ethnocentricity
it is the dominant, naturalized, normalized doctrines of the west; the one that says, say to africans, be civilized like us.
or worse,it says: i understand you, but if you were better educated you'd understand your weaknesses and become like us.

it is the inevitable pattern that colonialism had deployed, a paternalism, that came to dominate all disciplines in the academy, and which mudimbe would describe as inevitably inscribed on all those who enter into modernity, african or european. it is all there in his Invention of AFrica and Idea of Africa. it is not a mystery!

i imagine another way to think about values, and i put it in my book Trash; i imagine a perspective of values that looks at the world from a different place on the hierarchy of values--a place i call from below, but it is only "below" in relation to the dominant ideological position. not on any absolute scale at all. to the contrary!

it isn't simply a question, then, of african or european, as is so often represented in our list, but of dominant versus alternative or progressive or oppositional, although the more dominant is present, even in opposition, the more it frames the epistemology. so we need to take a more radical stance, one that espouses something so buried in the barrels of worthlessness in the eyes of dominant ideology, that it can free us from the oppressive structures of thought. it has to be trash. i don't see any other way.

i hope that makes small sense as to how i see myself in radical opposition to liberalism, even as i prefer its humanism to the ugliness of those who advocate "state terrorism" or its enemies, the boko harams and isis types.
but i don't want its humanism to dupe me. if i did, if we did, we'd have to accept the rest: its epistemology, and inevitably, its notions of superior and inferior, with all that that implies.
ken



On 8/26/14 4:08 PM, Moses Ebe Ochonu wrote:
Agreed, OA, agreed. No argument here. It's a no brainer, as the Americans would say. But the way I see it is that there are already so many people taking on the "white, equity-hating, ever-money-hungry, unrepentant, inequality driving, shameless, war-mongering, right wing ideologues whose stock-in-trade seems to be continuing to make the world a more dangerous place for all but themselves." I would rather direct my critical energy towards the beloved figure of the benign paternal white liberal, who tries to humanize us (unlike his (neo)conservative brethren) but often does so by inadvertently robbing us of our rational agency and personhood (warts and all) and instead ascribes all that is wrong with us to external, European forces. It is my job to sometimes say to them, Africans are capable of evil, too--that we are just like everybody else, with a mixture of good, bad, and in-betweens, and that we don't need too much cuddling and protection.

On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua <Anun...@lincolnu.edu<mailto:Anun...@lincolnu.edu>> wrote:
MEO,

What about the white , equity-hating, ever-money-hungry, unrepentant, inequality driving, shameless, war-mongering, right wing ideologues whose stock-in-trade seems to be continuing to make the world a more dangerous place for all but themselves. They are my favorite bogeymen.

oa

-----Original Message-----
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com> [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:33 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

To be honest Ochonu, I prefer the white avuncular, do-good liberal any day to the callous, conceited, pro-eugenics, neo-con bigots who would wipe out half of humanity with a virus progrom - in a flash.

G


________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com> [usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Moses Ebe Ochonu [meoc...@gmail.com<mailto:meoc...@gmail.com>]

Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 10:03 AM
To: USAAfricaDialogue
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

Ken,

Actually, to "self-righteous" (your word), I would add naive as another adjective to describe my favorite boogeyman, the white avuncular, do-good liberal.

But seriously, I'm puzzled by your invocation of Soyinka here. Have you actually read what Soyinka has been saying about Boko Haram and about violent Islamist groups over the years? His view on the subject does not align with your expansive and extrapolatory reading of The Man Died at all. Maybe he evolved, maybe he is, like most of us, keenly aware of the evil, intolerance, and murderous hate which reside in the minds of many humans and how such evil is justified with ideology and religious fever. He is, of course, not very kind to Christian extremists, but over the last twenty years, his views on Islamic extremism, especially of the violent variety, has been consistently unsparingly strident. Why do you think he got a death sentence/fatwa placed on him a few years ago? He offered a scathing assessment of Boko Haram, and the group threatened him with death. So, I doubt that Soyinka would look at Boko Haram members in the way you suggested. He has called them, rightly in my opinion, murderous brutes whose ideology does not belong to and is incompatible with Nigeria's (and the world's) de facto ecumenism.

I know you want to find meaning and humanity in and beneath everything. Sometimes it is offensive to do so, no matter how noble the intent may be. Sometimes I wish you understood Hausa. Why? So that I will send you links to some of Shekau's youtube videos (I'm still depressed from the one released yesterday). Without rehashing its grisly details, I believe firmly that if you listened to and understood (preferably in the Hausa/Kanuri original) two of Shekau's video rants and watched the footage that accompany them, you'd be scared out of this naive assumption that everyone is a valuable Other who should be reasoned with--you'd be scared into a sober acknowledgement of the fact that there are gradations of evil and aggression and that some people's ideology and modus operandi do not entitle them to the dignity of sympathetic understanding. Understanding, yes (I write on the need for that myself). Sympathetic understanding and empathy, no!

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 9:23 PM, kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu><mailto:har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>>> wrote:
to lend more fire to your claims, gloria, how was the west "won," in the u.s., if not by the sword and the glory of god giving us the divine right, the manifest destiny. don't you think putin took the crimea back because god gave it to russia, and krushchev just sold it down the river. the examples are endless. we are dealing with humans who take what they can by force, and ALWAYS justify it on some higher principle.
it is enough to be very discouraged in human kind.
i like soyinka's world view, to look in the face of the other, the one who died that dawn on the road, and to see in it one's brother, oneself boko harem is really scary these days, but in fact, they too are the ones soyinka is seeing on the road. and if we can't quite get there, then what makes our rationalization any better than others'?
moses would rightly accuse the self-righteous liberal as saying i accept everyone, and those who aren't like me have to be forced to see things my way.
enough for now
ken

On 8/25/14 10:01 PM, Emeagwali, Gloria (History) wrote:
'If the nations accuse Israel of banditry for seizing the lands of the seven nations of Canaan, Israel can respond, "The entire universe belongs to God. He created it and He granted it to whomever He deemed fit. It was His desire to give it to them and then it was His desire to take it from them and give it to us."CH


I am sure that the marauding troops of ISIS will claim that God gave Iraq, Syria and even the whole world to them.

Boko Haram can claim that Gwoza was also given to them. Who is to stop them from claiming the whole of Nigeria with the same argument?

Empire builders have a lot in common.

What I liked about Valentine Ojo was his critical, probing mind. He would definitely have challenged the above statement. May his soul rest in peace.






Professor Gloria Emeagwali
CT 06050

africahistory.net<http://africahistory.net><http://africahistory.net>
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos<http://vimeo.com/user5946750/videos><http://vimeo.com/user5946750/videos>

Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora


________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>> [usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>>] On Behalf Of Cornelius Hamelberg [cornelius...@gmail.com<mailto:cornelius...@gmail.com><mailto:cornelius...@gmail.com<mailto:cornelius...@gmail.com>>]

Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 5:42 PM

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com><mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>>

On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com<mailto:segun...@gmail.com><mailto:segun...@gmail.com<mailto:segun...@gmail.com>>> wrote:

"Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that "Jesus is a philosopher". Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
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[Anunoby, Ogugua]

I got you SO.
It seems to me that if God is what/who he is believed to be in monotheist cultures- omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient among others, it must be a stretch for any human being to subject the claims about God by those who believe in him, to human logic and reason. That to me would be to judge God when all one needs to do is dispute the claims and act accordingly if it was necessary to do so.
You ask "Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land?" The honest answer in my opinion must be that no one knows for sure which means everyone is free to believe or not as it pleases them to. That one believes or does not believe in God neither proves nor disproves that God did or did not.
You state " If he (God) knew he was going to love Israelites more than the rest of the world he would have created them alone." I will argue that God had to create other people as it would not be possible to "to love the Israelites more" if He created the Israelites only. There would be no people to love less. God had to create other people therefore if He was "to love the Israelites more".
The Hebrew Bible says for example that God spoke with Abraham, Lot, Noah, Job, and Moses. Just as no one knows for sure whether or not He did, everyone is free to believe or not that He did or did not. Should anyone be emphatic on what they believe or not? That is not my call. I could go on.

>> wonger1992172-213>F

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

Ken makes a persuasive case.

What is true too is that there are few self-acknowledging liberals who claim they are perfect. All perspectives are indeed constructed. The liberal perspective warts and all, seems to me to be less injurious to society than the conservative perspective that more or less undermines or denies the dignity and equal humanness of the poor and the weak, opposes policies that could enrich their lives, and encourages the development and support of policies that make their lives more difficult.  Liberals can be patronizing. They to me, should be preferable to conservatives who are less tolerant of the equality of all members of their community.

 

oa  

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,

I realise that no matter how long this thread gets, it will not take us any closer to infinity.

Briefly:

Concerning a certain assertion that you made recently.

I do not know whether you have changed your coat of many colours since you (a mere mortal) made the following rather omniscient statement in this forum, till death do you part, perhaps a permanent belief you intend to hold close to your heart until you (a mere mortal) along with all your beliefs, philosophies, knowledge, abstract truths, doubts and understandings, until you all expire and join Brother Ojo in the hereafter.

What is the basis of the conviction that sets the psychographic process in you going to the point where in old colonial big grammar, speaking in the majestic first person, you write  

“I am very emphatic that God did not give any land to anyone or any tribe including Abram and Israelites “

You do understand of course, that you (yourself) are the proof of your own assertion and the proof of your own existence and that we are merely witnesses?

Of course a man like Caliph Baghdadi is not so liberal about this sort of issue. As you also know, Osama bin Ladin would have included you among those destined to roast in the hellfire, forever.

They say that Baghdadi is more extreme. What they fail to see is that Baghdadi at least gives you a chance – as this compassionate video explains, “We Called on Them to Convert to Islam First” before they went on the rampage. So, you see at least you would have a chance to believe in God before you die (even as holy hypocrisy, the mother of necessity) – or be mercilessly slaughtered, on the spot.

Al-Islam asserts  that “ There is no compulsion in religion” I guess that just before the coup de grace, those words especially if uttered in Arabic, could give you one more chance.

 THIS is especially for you.

As the Tempter said to Bishop Thomas a Beckett (before he was martyred)

“If you will remember me, my Lord, at your prayers,

I'll remember you at kissing-time below the stairs”

Sincerely,

We Sweden

>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

PS. I ask for your forgiveness.

Errata. Sorry.

Some clarity:

When King Louis XIV of France asked Pascal for proof for the existence of God, he replied, “The Jews, Your Majesty!”

But that’s another matter entirely. The existence of God does not depend on your existence or non-existence or on any of your opinions about the air which you or Jesus breathed.

In my last missile to you, there were several slips of the pen; I should have written “ Osama bin Ladin would have included you destined to suffer extreme temperatures in the endless thermo-nuclear inferno, the legendary  Jahanam “ instead of  “Osama bin Ladin would have included you among those destined to roast in the hellfire, forever.” Anyway, you get the drift...

In the same spirit, instead of a sharp sword at the edge of your Adam´s apple

“So, you see at least you would have a chance to believe in God before you die”,

in the name of accuracy and precision that would be better worded thus:

“So you see, at least you would have a chance to say “Muhammad is the Last Prophet” – or die”

Many still come face to face with such extreme circumstances. I understand that Shekau has already declared the Islamic Caliphate - if not over all of Nigeria in the coming years, and then at least he is willing to temporarily name it “The Northern Caliphate” with maybe himself as emperor?

Has the President’s office responded to this latest development?

Apart from theorising on the  transcendence or non-existence of the Almighty or praying in Jerusalem,  on the plain of action, I wonder how Brother Obama (or Brother Jero  or Brother Goodluck Jonathan himself, would react if he were president of the mighty USA) when a little Islamic rebellion broke out in the Boko Haram section of North America, with the militants in St. Louis, Missouri, Watts, Alabama - or California suddenly raised the confederate flag or the mayor or sheriff or Imam of the San Francisco mosque declared martial law, and thereupon Sharia Law and then appointed himself commander-in-chief and Caliph of California. Would it be dialogue and standoffs (to save lives) or would it be sending in the National Guard storm troopers, the air force and the Marines?

We Sweden

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialogue+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.

[Rounke Ope]

Hello,

I accidentally click on the issue about american doctor...

so, here are some points to clarify about:

1- have faith that there is God who created the entire universe, living things and non living things.

2- we are the creature of God, and we exist for one tangible reason which is to worship the one who created us(God).

3- believe that there is a hereafter which every single person would be asked how he spent his lifetime. 

  (that is a fact matter, please do not play with it!)

certainly, there is a life after death, ONLY  RELIGION (TRUE RELIGION) AND GOOD DEEDS can rescue us.

the prophet(peace be upon him) said: strive very hard oh mankind, and seek assistance from your Lord,because

there are heavy and unbearable occurrences after your  death. 

may Almighty ALLAH guide us to the right way (Amin)

thank you

On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:20 AM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com> wrote:

"The American doctor, Kent Brantly, who contracted Ebola Virus Disease in Liberia has attributed his recovery from the deadly virus to God and not to the experimental Zmapp drug used in treating him.

After being discharged from the Emory University Hospital in the United States of America, Dr. Brantly made his first public statement since contracting Ebola in Liberia almost a month ago, thanking God for his survival."

“Today is a miraculous day. I am thrilled to be alive, to be well and to be reunited with my family. As I lay in bed in Liberia for the following nine days, getting sicker and weaker each day, I prayed that God would help me be faithful, even in my illness,” he said.

“And I prayed that in my life or in my death that he would be glorified. I did not know then, but have learned since, that there were thousands, maybe even millions of people around the world praying for me throughout that week and even till today.

“I cannot thank you enough for your prayers and your support, but what I can tell you is that I serve a faithful God who answers prayers.”

I respect the unflinching faith of Dr. Kent Brantly  in his God but for him to deny that Zmapp drug did not cure him is probably false. 

If Zmapp drug did not cure him,  why was he not cured by his God on his sickbed in Liberia before the rescue mission that flew him to Emory University, Atlanta? 

He claimed to have prayed to his God while in Liberia and if that God has such a curative device, why did he not apply it on all the  Ebola victims who died? 

Perhaps one is not really clear of what Dr. Brantly meant by saying that Zmapp drug did not cure him. Maybe he needs to tell the rest of the world what he meant by that statement. He needs to inform the world whether indeed Zmapp drug was never used in treating him against Ebola virus disease. Or was his illness from a different contagious disease and not Ebola? And people  simply assumed it was Ebola?

 Maybe the Doctors who treated him never revealed the kind of drug used for his recovery for certain medical reasons. 

These are some of the issues that have to be investigated before any moral or ethical judgment can be made on Doctor Brantly's statement that it was God who cured him and not Zmapp drug.  

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D

Professor of Philosophy

Adekunle Ajasin University

Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State

Nigeria

Cellphone: 08033041371

                   08024670952

--

[Segun Ogungbemi]

Thanks OA for your response but you sound like someone who is neither here or there.
My training teaches me to take a position and defend it with superior arguments.
God will be an immoral Being if he created the universe only to show that he loves the Israelites.
In my own traditional belief, Olodumare, the Supreme Being created the universe for human beings to live in and pursue their happiness. There is no record in the oral and written traditions of the Yoruba where Olodumare says He loves the Yoruba more than the rest of the peoples of the world.
It is arrogance of the highest order that the writers of the Bible displayed by claiming the only beloved people. Only people of weak minds will use a higher authority to coverup their fears and inferiority complex. God is not a human property, if he exists.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

'It is arrogance of the highest order that the writers of the Bible displayed by claiming the only beloved people.' SO

Agreed. It is sheer arrogance and an insult to the rest of humanity.

Professor Gloria Emeagwali
CT 06050
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora

________________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [segun...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 5:32 AM

[kenneth harrow]

hi segun
i wonder what profit we gain in this. ogugua quotes passages about abram
and so on. i hope everyone knows that the jewish bible, the "old
testament," contains so many many passages that contradict themselves,
or could be read in different ways, that it should become clear that
citing scripture is mostly an exercise in evoking an authority to prove
what you just want to assert anyway.
i'm writing because you and he are discussing the question of god's love
for the israelites. first, the phrase usually employed is that god made
the covenant with the israelites and called them his chosen people. but
god also said the israelites were to be his light unto the nations,
whatever that is supposed to mean--i guess meaning to take the belief
in god to them.
god also ordered the israelites to exterminate a whole slew of people
who occupied the land, the promised land. but then god decided since the
israelites were disobedient or bad to wipe them out. moses dissuaded
god, twice at least, about that idea, so god said he'd just punish them
for 40 years. and that motif of disobedient israelites being punished
until most die, or many die, and the rest repent and are accepted back,
that is the most common trope i find in the bible and the prophetic
writings.

i makes zero sense to me to try to read this in any literal way. why
would anyone want to do so? it is to reduce a text that might be
interesting, to reduce a relationship even to one's faith, to something
that is meaningless and empty and useless, to read any of it literally.
it makes no sense to begin to imagine that we are dealing with figures
who are nothing but individuals with names like abraham or isaac. they
have been rendered into something enormously more complex, interesting,
and powerful as figures for us, by all the commentary and imaginative
renderings of them that followed from the original recountings of them
and their lives.
and the same is completely true of jesus and mohammad as well.
what is needed is not people who believe or not; not whether the
scriptures are divine or true or not. what is needed is people who
think, who can think, who care about thinking, who can read and think,
who understand the value of interpreting and reflecting; people who love
words and ideas, not simpletons who just hate, and use scriptures to
justify their hatreds and violence....
lastly, instead of leaving it here, the scriptures and belief have
generated enormously beautiful and powerful figures, objects, words,
thoughts. obviously what people make of it is what matters. we won't
change these two sides--the hatred that appeals to scriptures or the
love that appeals to scriptures--by wiping out religion, by appealing
to reason.
ken

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

I have nothing to say about the training that you have.
That you cannot determine where I am is not to say that I am not some place. Making a determination is not always easy.
The absence of acceptable evidence in support of a claim may inform doubt. The absence of acceptable evidence by itself does not mean that a claim is not true. If Abraham or anybody else claimed that God said this or that to them, it is up to any and every one to believe them or not believe them. That the claimer is believe or not believed, is not and cannot be evidence that a claim is false or not false.
You write "In my own traditional belief, Olodumare, the Supreme Being created the universe for human beings to live in and pursue their happiness. There is no record in the oral and written traditions of the Yoruba where Olodumare says He loves the Yoruba more than the rest of the peoples of the world." There is record in oral tradition which is why we know about this claim of the Yoruba. Oral tradition is a record. It may not be acceptable to you and I understand that. It might be to somebody else who puts great core in their knowledge of the fact that the ancient Yoruba kept oral but not written records.
I do not know for a fact that God exists. I do not know for a fact that He does not. I have no evidence one way or the other. Could I still believe in God? The choice is mine.

oa

>>> wonger1992172-213>-

>>> wonger1992172-213>F
>>> OOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus
>>> to Herod to be
>>> tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECar
>>> t e r2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in
>>> response to Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus,
>>> put an expensive robe on him

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

Why is it arrogant for a people to claim to be special? Any people should be able and free to make same claim. Many do as a matter of fact. What else is group self-esteem and self-worth? I would argue however that a people would be arrogant if the claim causes them to see other people as inferior and deal with them as such.

>>> Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE
>>> 5
>>> 4
>>> 8SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=G
>>> i

>>> Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEN
>>> i
>>> s
>>> wonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note
>>> wonger1992172-213>-

[Folu Ogundimu]

SO, GE, I'm with you on this one. My Christian faith does not negate my Yoruba belief in Olodumare. The truly lost souls are those who embrace little understood monotheistic religions at face value while abandoning the enduring redeeming values of their own indigenous faiths.

Having just returned from Salvador, Bahia (Brazil), I weep for Africa's lost traditions and religious faiths whereas I was moved by the clever and ingenious ways Africa descendent people of Brazil have found ways to preserve and take pride in these faiths and religions as living monuments. This is a topic to address on another day. Thank you.

FO.

Sent from my iPad

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

a side issue: re- "those who embrace little understood monotheistic religions at face value while abandoning the enduring redeeming values of their own indigenous faiths." Are these not two competing orthodoxies, two very different religions even if Oya can correspond to the Blessed Virgin Mary of Christianity ?  Are there any supplicants who successfully embrace both religions? Opinion is divided  as to what extent Trinitarian Christianity can be said to be monotheistic, since Jesus of Nazareth is idolized as "the third" person in their trinity, and  Edward Wilmot Blyden made a good case for Islam being more down to earth and much closer/ compatible with indigenous traditional religion and mores, polygamy etc., in his Christianity, Islam and the Negro Race . Does that mean that half the work is therefore already completed for the Islamization  or Caliphate-a-lisation of  the Nigerian sections who feel that their indigenous religion lives in conflict-free, peaceful co-existence at least in their own cultural environment? The Catholic Church does not swerve from dogma or doctrine but is very tolerant - better word still, accepting of indigenous culture in so far as it does not collide with doctrine...

[kenneth harrow]

well, i always thought group identity came down to, we are better than
those others. typically, anyway.
but there is a deeper irony for us jews in this question. ever since the
roman conquest, jews became a people of the diaspora, with a long and
painful history in europe; a more mixed, and at times painful history,
at times better history, in the middle east. better to have been a jew
in turkey, say, than spain after 1500, or most of the rest of europe,
depending on the place and time.
but we were accused of being christkillers and drinkers of christian
baby blood, so there was really no problem in killing us or making us
wear special markers of identity, etc. we were the abused and persecuted
people.
to then say, well, you are arrogant, you call yourself the chosen
people, you deserve being maligned by chaucer and shakespeare and all
those antisemites through history, etc., that seems a bit much.

i hope it is clear than this has nothing to do with israel and its
politics with palestine, its abuse of palestinians, or its current
rightwing government. i am talking about historical reasons for
antisemitism, hatred of jews, not israeli politics which i, and other
jews, strongly oppose.
ken

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

To claim to be special is not the same as to say you are specially chosen by God.

You may claim to be special because of your location and environment;
the unique plants that you have succeeded in growing; the minerals at your disposal etc.
Since most of the world's cobalt lies in the Congo, the Congolese can say they are special
even though they may not benefit adequately from the deposit. South Africa in the 19th century
produced most of the gold in the world. The region was special in this sense although
the people who profitted most from it were the Dutch descendants and the British.

To say that you were specially chosen by God is another matter. Invariably the implication is that
you were chosen but others were not. It boosts national pride but it is an arrogant though empty boast.



Professor Gloria Emeagwali

africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
________________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anunoby, Ogugua [Anun...@lincolnu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 3:21 PM

>>> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizi?me Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde l?rjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading Claude's version, since Jesus is not one of my priorities.

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

Now let us not mix up dates and events, Ken.

Nobody in his or her right mind would condone the atrocities of the post 1500 era that you mentioned.
Nobody should ignore the discrimination and unfair treatment meted out to
the Jewish people in the manner described.

This is not what we are talking about at this point.

This discusssion is about the Bible and the claims therein.

A group of people were declared special in the text and we are interrogating that
claim - which was made over a thousand years ago. If some people are declared chosen,
what about the rest of humanity during that era.

You are right. This discussion is not about Israeli politics.

Professor Gloria Emeagwali

africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
________________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 3:59 PM

>>>> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizi?me Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde l?rjungen"/ The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas) reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading Claude's version, since Jesus is not one of my priorities.

[kenneth harrow]

well, different people try to read that issue of chosenness different ways.
i tend to read it your way: it is a claim of specialness meaning better.
others take it to mean, chosen to carry the message of there being one
god to others.
others, having the covenant meaning the jews made a deal w god, had to
live up to 600 and some odd laws, and in not living up to them were
susceptible to special punishment for having failed god and failed the
covenant. so chosen to bear a greater burden.

the jewish bible does not praise the israelites as being better, only as
being led by god when they merit it, and most of the time the fail,
worship a golden calf, question moses, rebel, and get whacked. 90% of
the text and prophets carries enormous sections of condemnation of the
israelites for failing to live up to god's rules.

that's really what the bible says, but most people don't pay much
attention to the actual contents.

and it is also really more than one thing. the relationship in genesis
between the people of abraham and his descendants is one thing, very
tribal and familial.
the relationship w moses and the israelites after leaving egypt is
totally different, reads differently.
so the special relation with god between abraham and his descendants is
one things, a lineage thing.
the relation between god and the israelites as chosen, that comes after
egypt and under moses, with the covenant having become the 10
commandments and the israelites bound by it.

i'll try not to go on. i went into the dates and events stuff because
the readings about jews and chosenness became an historical frame for
christian antagonism toward jews.
not between muslims and jews, who got along much better for most of the
time (w some ugly exceptions) until 1948
ken

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

Thank you for your insights on the matter.
GE

Professor Gloria Emeagwali
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
________________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]

Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 8:44 PM

[Assensoh, Akwasi B.]

Sir Folu:

Thank you very much for your enlightening posting. Your discussion and the earlier one (by oa) reminded me of a brief but tensed family discourse when we were of primary school-age back in Ghana. One Sunday morning, after a hectic Saturday school soccer game, we were tired and unwilling to get up to prepare for our usual service at the local Roman Catholic Church, where some of us served mass as altar boys (thank God that we were left alone, and never molested by any ordained priest!).

Our middle-aged Dad came to our sleeping places holding a pale (or bucket) with half-full cold water to sprinkle on anyone, who kept on sleeping or snoozing! One of our oldest brothers (among our many siblings in our polygamous or polygynous home) was irritated; so, he blurted out: "Daddy is always bothering us about church business. What will happen, if we die and we find out there is no God or no Heaven to go to?"

"I know there is God, and there is heaven. If not, you would have lived a righteous or Christian life," our Dad retorted.

In July, the incident came back to my nimble African mind because one of our family members -- who grew up and served Catholic Church mass with us -- died; the late Professor Kwadwo Assenso-Okyere, the former Vice-Chancellor of University of Ghana for 2002-2006, passed away at 67 years old after an apparent heart attack. I wondered if he would now know whether there is God or Heaven, or not at all.

Well, like Joshua, I and my household believe there is God as well as a heaven to enter when we pass on one day!

In terms of your tantalizing visit to Bahia (Brazil), please did you meet any African descendants, who spoke any distinct African dialect or language, i.e. Yoruba (Nigeria and Benin); Akan (Ghana), Hausa (north of West African countries), etc.? Welcome back to Michigan!

A.B. Assensoh.

________________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Folu Ogundimu [ogun...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 3:28 PM

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

I humbly disagree. There is always one or more reasons to claim to be special. You exemplify with the Congolese people. Of course they could claim to be special as you say. It should not matter to anyone that they did so long as their claim is not the reason they make trouble with others. Many people in the U.S. believe the U.S. to be a special country. They talk about American exceptionalism. They have their reasons and no one is obliged to agree or disagree with them. It should not matter to anyone these people believe as they do, so long as the claim is not the reason for their country to make trouble with other countries. The British people claimed specialness for many decades. Why not? Although a relatively small islands' nation, their country was the first country to industrialize. Their empire at its zenith was the largest the world had ever known. Their country they claim had never lost a war. They added Great to Britain. The Japanese claimed their country was the land of the rising sun. It never was and still is not.
The Israelites claimed to be special. As far as they knew, they only, were chosen by their God as his people and that choice for them, was evidenced by their covenant with Him. That the Israelites based their claim of specialness on their relationship with their God is at the end of the day, their reason to claim to be special. It is different than other peoples' reasons. That for me, does not make their reason or them superior or not. I am unable to how their case it is another matter.
The claim of specialness is almost always a vacuous attempt one might say, at self-glorification. It never endures.

[Segun Ogungbemi]

Thanks my sister. It was that sheer arrogance that made the brothers of Joseph to hate him and made an attempt to kill him.
OA and Ken missed the point. Assuming the Jews did not arrogate to themselves or live by the tenet of being the anointed race and indoctrinate other races in the world, perhaps there wouldn't have been any good or moral reasons for their persecution.
Christians are no exception in this trade of arrogance. They claim they are a special or chosen people to have the grace to inherit the kingdom of God.
Most Liberal Christians that I know, however do not support such claims at all. All human beings are children of God regardless of race or color.
Come to think of it more seriously, the idea of God is a human invention. It is man in his imagination that made God and not that God made man in his own image. All discourse about God is about man and his interest. No more and no less.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

[Segun Ogungbemi]

Thank you Folu.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

>>>>> is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today w he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.

> .
>

[kenneth harrow]

well, i wish i could let this pass, but it really is beyond the pale.
the jews are to blame for their persecution because they thought
themselves better than others. does anyone really credit this argument?
segun, do you think jews went around baiting christians for 2 millenia,
proclaiming their superiority?? it is always always convenient to blame
the victim for their victimhood, instead of the oppressor.
ken

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

Segun I agree with everything you said minus your fourth sentence.
Don't blame the victim. If there is anyone to blame, it is the people

who allowed themselved to be indoctrinated and even so, one has to be careful

due to the psychological/ sociological complexities involved.



The irony is that the people who carried out the indoctrination in later years were not the Jews

but the Portuguese, Spanish, British and French. I doubt that the Germanic looking

portrait that became the face of Christianity was of Jewish sponsorship.



It seems to me that in the early days the claim for exceptionalism and specialness

was tied up with regional politics and land grabbing activities. In later years, after 1500

the above groups used the ideology of uniqueness for their own benefit -

simultaneously marginalizing the pioneers - in a shrewd game of identity theft

that they used to facilitate their expansionist agenda.



'We came here to serve god and to get rich' said Bernal Diaz- without an ounce of shame.

The Catholic church soon became the recipient of millions of tons of Native American gold.

We can talk about the genocide committed some other day.



Professor Gloria Emeagwali

africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Documentaries on Africa and the African Diaspora
________________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [segun...@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 4:51 PM

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

There lies my problem with the "arrogance" depiction of any group or people. Arrogance is often times the excuse for grave wrongs against and persecution of a people. The Jews are arrogant, The Christians and Yazidis in Iraq are arrogant. The Copts in Egypt are arrogant. I could go on. Who do they think they are? Let us kill them all.

>>>>> Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_en
>>>>> SE5
>>>>> 4
>>>>> 8SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq

>>>>> Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOT
>>>>> ENi
>>>>> s
>>>>> wonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_no

>>>>> wonger1992172-213>te-

[Segun Ogungbemi]

You are right. The instrument used to exploit people was the scriptures which justified their exploitation. It was also the scriptures that was used to denounce human exploitation. It is a double edged sword.
Maybe we have to allow the debate on the matter take a deep rest.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

[Segun Ogungbemi]

Ken,
Some human beings are very wicked. Killing the Jews or enslaving people for whatever reasons is not morally defensible. Proclaiming to be the only race loved by God is ethically and morally provocative.
We should all live together in peace and pursue happiness without using any instrument that will frustrate our attempt to flourish and achieve the goal of moral worth.

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
Professor of Philosophy
Adekunle Ajasin University
Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
Nigeria
Cellphone: 08033041371
08024670952

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

"It was that sheer arrogance that made the brothers of Joseph to hate him and made an attempt to kill him."

so.

Why are you so sure? Was it not more likely envy by the brothers, of their father's love for Joseph?
You make an interesting point about God being a human invention. This may be so. What is fact also is that most religions, especially the Abrahamic ones, claim to be revealed.

>>>> Jews"<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enS
>>>> E5
>>>> 4
>>>> 8SE548&biw=1024&bih=658&q=Ginzberg+%3A++The+Legends+of+The+Jews&oq=

>>>> Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTE
>>>> Ni
>>>> s

>>>> wonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_not
>>>> wonger1992172-213>e-

[kenneth harrow]

segun
i think here is the issue. it is true that the bible states that the
jews are the chosen people. god makes a covenant with abraham, and then
repeats it later at various points, and says, you are my chosen people,
these are the laws you have to obey.
when you read that or hear that you think, these people think they are
better than anyone else.
so, if we look just at the bible alone, god also says, i made a covenant
with you, but you didn't keep it, so i will punish you.
if we look just at the bible, the message becomes muddied.

but the issue, the real problem, lies in thinking that because of this
statement in the bible about chosenness, people assume that jews
themselves went around saying or thinking that they were superior to
others. they haven't done so.
if you were to ask, do jews think they are special, i'd say, some do,
some don't. but i don't believe they are different from any other group
on earth in that respect.
if you were then to ask, then why have they been singled out for
persecution for so long, then we get into history, and the answers to
that become "historical." but i think the answer might run along the
same lines as those that explain why there is racism in the world, and
why it has been around for so long.
you sum it up pretty well: "Some human beings are very wicked." there
are reasons for this, but none of them are any good.
ken

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Sir Segun, Philosopher son of Olodumare!

I  respect your call “to allow the debate on the matter take a deep rest.” – especially since the Sabbath is only about one hour away over here in Stockholm. And I can understand that by this polite request you would like to silence the opposition, thus terminate us with just a few words of wishful thinking from your keyboard.

I’m humming “You know I need your loving, honey why are you so hard?”

About Joseph  - who became viceroy of Egypt  - if you go to the Torah, you will see how the Almighty enters history...

One of the most terrible sins between /among our fellowmen is baseless hatred, it can take many forms, bigotry, tribalism, racism, anti-Semitism, the blood libel...  

 In this our fraternity of fellow human beings, I do not think it is either proper or fair to allow you to pass a number of spurious judgements of the God and His Chosen People – and go unchallenged. It is my sacred duty to correct any public misapprehensions and disparaging remarks about the Almighty, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the fore fathers of the Jewish People and Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah, the matriarchs, the mothers...

The Torah was offered to all nations but apart from Israel everyone else, including the great ones  had one objection or the other to one of the Ten Commandments, only, Israel the smallest of people  said, "We will do and we will hear" With Choseness goes sanctification by fulfilling what can be observed toady of the 613 commandments

 What is sometimes identifiable is arrogance is what also passes for Chutzpah otherwise there is something called Lashon Hara  - undesirable speech...

Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto´s “The Way of God” is a classic presentation of Judaism that was specially written for someone like you.  

The Almighty did not say that you have to become a Jew to be saved. Any human society / people, who abide by the Noahide Laws, are saved.  

One last little thing: and I read it this morning: Ohr Torah: The Ethics of Warfare  by Rabbi Shlomo Riskin

Wishing you a restful weekend,

We Sweden

>>>> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/   The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas)  reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies  - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King ...

[Segun Ogungbemi]

Thanks my friend. I do not want to keep you silent. 

Yes, the Jewish scriptures portrayed Israelites as the chosen people but it is only humans who have the tendencies of being selective or show a sign of favoritism and engage in local context to prove their strength and superiority.

 As I have said before, Olodumare does not do any of those immoral things found in the scriptures of Judaism. God does not need to favor any race or nation for any hidden objective intentions. 

I want you to enjoy your Sabbath. Maybe after the Sabbath we can continue the debate or when I have time to visit Sweden. 

Ogun agbe yin o. Aase. 

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D

Professor of Philosophy

Adekunle Ajasin University

Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State

Nigeria

Cellphone: 08033041371

                   08024670952

>> You ask "Why would God who created the Canaanites, Moabites, Edomites etc ask the descendants of Abram from Ur to go and take over their land?" The honest answer in my opinion must be that no one knows for sure which means everyone is free to believe or not as it pleases them to. That one believes or does not believe in God neither proves nor disproves that God did or did not. go and take over their land?" The honest answer in my opinion must be that no one knows for sure which means everyone is free to believe or not as it pleases them to. That one believes or does not believe in God neither proves nor disproves that God did or did not.

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roups.com.

[ZALANGA SAMUEL]

Sociologically, there are two types of religions: priestly religion (version) and prophetic religion (version) -- the first committed to the maintenance of social order or the status quo, and the other committed to transforming the social order and status quo. The priestly version is the most dominant in Nigeria today. Martin Luther King Jr. and Liberation theologians are more in the prophetic version. To understand the differences between the two, on needs to look deep into the structure of society, its history and process, and how that shape the consciousness of the human being. There is no religion that can be understood without the practitioners of the religion, and so given that the practitioners are human beings, anything that affects their constitution will also affect the way they practice their religion or even understand it.

The mind of the human being in the 21st century is different from the mind of the human being in the first century. If the scriptures are central to religion, it is also true that what becomes the meaning of religion is contingent on the interaction between the human mind and the scriptures. To assume that the human mind and its consciousness is the same today as it it was thousands of years ago, is to assume that the senior citizen's mind is the same as when he or she was fifteen or less than ten. The same reality might exists but age and maturation affects how that reality is viewed and interpreted with serious implications for social action.  It is easy to get around this by saying that the Holy Spirit or God's spirit can guide people to the truth. Empirical evidence suggests many Holy people who claim to have the guidance of the spirit as in Rabbinic Judaism come up with different interpretations, suggesting as in Christianity that the spirit comes in different flavors or so it seems. The controversy then shifts to whose spirit and whose God is most effective. Often when the Israelites were conquered they start doubting their God or even adopt some elements of their conquerors religion. Religious people can sometimes be very pragmatic.

I remember in Sokoto, Nigeria, after I made a comment, one person told me that women are not expected to rule because there is a divine command that they are less intelligent, presumably in Islam. I told him that this is not supported by scientific evidence at all. He reinforced his assertion by saying his comment is true in Christianity too. I kept quiet because our fundamental assumptions about the world are different and the conversation would require serious work. I consulted some other Muslim scholars in Sokoto and they disagreed with the man's interpretation. In a presumably liberal democratic society as John Stuart Mill would argue, all interpretations should be allowed to assert themselves in a free market of ideas and then over time we will see which will survive.

 Much about what people make about religion and social reality depends on interpretation, their social context, and experience, even when given the same scriptures. Often religious people avoid this deep thinking because it can be a slippery slope, I understand. But there are many factors that go into hermeneutics. The more one studies religion from a variety of perspectives, the more one feels humbled and concludes that no one single perspective accounts for everything.

Religion is often concerned about absolute truth but anthropological and sociological study of religion shows that when combined with history, the absolute truth is historically relative. Judaism evolved over time. From the religion of a small group of people, it became a universal religion. Christianity triumphed over Roman religion, because it was able to reconfigure itself from an ethnic religion to one where everyone, i.e., gentiles can become part of it. Moreover from a rational choice perspective, worshipping the Christian God was very economical. He loves everyone and commands people to love each other unlike the Roman Gods. He does not demand the kind of sacrifice that the Roman gods demand according to Rodney Stark and when they demand it, they could receive it and abscond. So it was very rational to be a Christian from this perspective. Indeed the literature on why people convert to a faith and maintain their commitment reveals insights different from what religious believers often believe is happening. 

But the problem can be solved by understanding that the truth is just what the powerful people decide is truth and if they have the resources, they can increased the social cost of deviating from the declared truth. All religions tend to do that to some degree. Even in America, Alexis de Tocqueville argues that people are free to hold their views but within certain bounds. Once they go beyond the bounds, even though they maybe legally protected, they are punished through the process of social ostracization, which in effect means the formal rights and freedom are substantially diminished by culture and traditions.

Samuel

> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: [camnetwork] God, not Zmapp, cured me -- American Ebola patient

> From: segun...@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 04:11:12 +0100
> To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

[Mobolaji Aluko]

My People:

Yes, Val Ojo would use your own words - highlighted always within his own - to question you, about what you REALLY meant.  The problem was that when you responded, your own NEW words were fodder for more questions, without him agreeing or disagreeing with your earlier response..

Very frustrating - until I learnt NEVER to respond MORE THAN ONCE to his probes!  :-)

May his soul rest in perfect peace [Amen.]

Bolaji Aluko

On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua <Anun...@lincolnu.edu> wrote:

This forum misses Val Ojo already. This is an indication of the measure of the man.

oa

> must have been true of jews in the ancient period: obviously, i think, they had very different practices. i believe the fact that there are several names for God in the jewish bible signifies that multiplicity of origins, and the bible became a conflation, an editing job done by ezra in the 6th c bce.
> is that right, cornelius?
> so, jews who challenged this or that practice, in this or that region, would probably have been common, just as today a vast number of jews are not kosher, do not observe the kosher laws you are citing, and yet consider themselves jews, and are considered jews by most other jews and non-jews.
>
> is there another question at stake here? was jesus really jewish? was he crowned in mockery the king of the jews by the roman pontius pilate who had him crucified? who knows? i wouldn't believe a single thing in the jewish or christian bible unless a qualified historian presented the evidence to me. the biblical texts were not composed to be history, as we know it. people of today who read it in that fashion are understandably misreading a text written with a different understanding of the meaning of the text and of the world. we are all guessing if we think we can decipher their words and their intentions without enormous leaps of faith--which is, after all, what it is all about. and that's ok.
> ken
> On 8/25/14 10:52 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
>

> A good freind<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat&oq=Claude+Kayat&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.65167.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..52.serp..0.0.0.5vdcz8YR6y0> has even written a book - Le Treizième Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=hts&oq=&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Le+Treizi%c3%a8me+Disciple> / in Swedish "Den trettonde lärjungen"/   The 13th Disciple<https://www.google.se/search?num=100&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&oq=Claude+Kayat+%3A+%22Den+trettonde+l%C3%A4rjungen%22%2F+The+13th+Disciple&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.0.1922.0.0.0.0.> (Judas)  reviewed here<https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svd.se%2Fkultur%2Flitteratur%2Fkayat-skriver-vackert-som-fa_30509.svd&edit-text=> . In the early seventies  - around the time I first met Claude I had read Robert Graves' "King Jesus" and his follow-up to that "The Nazarene Gospel Restored" but I still haven't got round to reading  Claude's version, since  Jesus is not one of my priorities.

>
> However,  this is a question for Professor Harrow ( who was not there) : Is it possible that the eating and  drinking of blood is forbidden a Jew and yet Jesus, breaking with tradition and with the holy law, could have said to his disciples at the Pesach Seder<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4NDKB_enSE548SE548&q=Pesach+Seder+> /Passover supper , in the heart of Jerusalem,  " This is my blood : drink!"<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A25-28&version=ESV> ?
> A second question I'd like to ask ( not directly relevant here) can a Muslim who has not done his First Communion be permitted to serve side by side with a catholic priest, at the altar of a Catholic Church?
>
> Only asking
>
> We Sweden<http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/>
>
>
> On Monday, 25 August 2014 06:07:35 UTC+2, Kenneth Harrow wrote:
> dear segun
> i would make a small objection to the way you framed this account.
> here is the wikipedia version of the judgment of jesus:
>
> Taking Jesus to Pilate's
> Court<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_Court>, the Jewish
> elders ask Roman governor Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus,
> accusing him of claiming to be the King of the
> Jews.[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Holman608-207>
> The use of the word "king" is central to the discussion between Jesus
> and Pilate. In John
> 18:36<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John
> #18:36> Jesus states, "My kingdom is not from this world", but he does
> not unequivocally deny being the King of the
> Jews.[203]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-211>[204]<http
> ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-212> In Luke
> 23:7-15<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Lu
> ke#23:7> Pilate realizes that Jesus is a Galilean, and thus comes
> under the jurisdiction of Herod

> Antipas.[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENis
> wonger1992172-213>[206]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-F

> OOTNOTEMajern.C3.ADkPonessaManhardt2005181-214> Pilate sends Jesus to
> Herod to be
> tried,[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECarte
> r2003120.E2.80.93121-215> but Jesus says almost nothing in response to
> Herod's questions. Herod and his soldiers mock Jesus, put an expensive

> robe on him to make him look like a king, and return him to
> Pilate,[205]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTENisw
> onger1992172-213> who then calls together the Jewish elders and
> announces that he has "not found this man
> guilty".[207]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTECar
> ter2003120.E2.80.93121-215>
>
> Observing a Passover custom of the time, Pilate allows one prisoner
> chosen by the crowd to be released. He gives the people a choice
> between Jesus and a murderer called
> Barabbas<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barabbas>. Persuaded by the
> elders (Matthew
> 27:20<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/Matt
> hew#27:20>), the mob chooses to release Barabbas and crucify
> Jesus.[208]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBlomb
> erg2009400.E2.80.93401-216> Pilate writes a sign that reads "Jesus of
> Nazareth, the King of the Jews" (abbreviated as
> INRI<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI> in depictions) to be affixed
> to Jesus' cross (John

> 19:19<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/John
> #19:19>),[209]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBr

> own198893-217> then scourges
> Jesus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation_of_Christ> and sends
> him to be crucified. The soldiers place a Crown of
> Thorns<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Thorns> on Jesus' head
> and ridicule him as the King of Jews. They beat and taunt him before
> taking him to
> Calvary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary>,[210]<http://en.wikipedi
> a.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-Senior-218> also called Golgotha, for

> crucifixion.[195]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-FOOTNOT
> EEvans2003487.E2.80.93500-203>[199]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
> #cite_note-Holman608-207>[211]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite
> _note-FOOTNOTEBlomberg2009402-219>
>

> When you write that pontius pilate "handed him over to the jews who accused him of crimes," you leave the reader to infer two things, that become points of accusation against jews for 2 thousand years. First, that the condemnation of jesus by "the jews" must have represented the initial act of jewish malevolence against christians--forgetting that jesus and his disciples were jews, that his followers were all jews, that the jewish high court to which you refer was one body of some of the jews, all of whom were ruled by the romans. and secondly, you somehow omit that after the trial, jesus was taken by the romans who then crucified him.
>
> it is a small point, but if you were a jew, a member of a community whom christians have accused of being "christ-killers" for 2 millenium, you might have reflected on those points before writing them.
> i know that wasn't really central to  your point, but it is a fact that very easily hatred for the jews for killing christ returns on the public stage.
> ken
>
> On 8/24/14 6:13 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
> "Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
> As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that  "Jesus is a philosopher".  Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.
> No evidence that he resurrected apart from what his disciples wrote because they were yearning for such miraculous story to confound the world. Celsius, one of the first critics of Jesus event did not find any records supporting his death and resurrection outside what his disciples wrote. One cannot use the Bible to justify itself. It is illogical to do such a thing.
> The Bible is not an authentic historical record but a collection of stories about Jewish religious beliefs.
> It is not a scientific or an academic record of events that can stand intellectual scrutiny.
> Paul was against philosophical questions and that is why he denounced any rational inquiry as foolishness.
> Issues dealing with a God who is all-knowing, all-good, all-powerful and yet he cannot help human beings in their critical predicaments like Ebola epidemics is errant nonsense.
> One can believe anything one chooses can be of help to one in life however stupid it may be, as long as one does not impose it on others like Boko Haram sect.

>
> Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D
> Professor of Philosophy
> Adekunle Ajasin University
> Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State
> Nigeria
> Cellphone: 08033041371
>                   08024670952
>

> On Aug 24, 2014, at 10:33 PM, Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Jesus is the greatest philosopher who blended pragmatism in spiritual dimensions. For example, however dismayed, he proved hisResurrection to Thomas and taught by examples, frequently using metaphors to depict contextual realities."
> As much as I agree that faith and medical science can be recognized as tools for healing purposes, you have gone too far by your assumption that  "Jesus is a philosopher".  Jesus never regarded himself as a philosopher. His resurrection story was cooked up by his disciples. Thomas never touched the hand of Jesus to verify that he was the person nailed on the cross before he bowed down and asked for forgiveness. Jesus would have shown himself to the Scribes, Pontus Pilate who beat him and handed him over to the Jews who accused him of crimes he committed according to their religious Jewish traditions.

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> kenneth w. harrow
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> kenneth w. harrow
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> michigan state university
> department of english
> 619 red cedar road
> room C-614 wells hall
> east lansing, mi 48824
> ph. 517 803 8839

> har...@msu.edu<https://webmail.ccsu.edu/owa/UrlBlockedError.aspx>

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[Anunoby, Ogugua]

“Much about what people make about religion and social reality depends on interpretation, their social context, and experience, even when given the same scriptures.”  zs

 

I will add self or group economic, political, and social interests.

 

“Even in America, Alexis de Tocqueville argues that people are free to hold their views but within certain bounds.”  zs

 

The same point was very well made in the movie “West Side Story” when it was said that “everything is good in America if you stay on your own side”.

 

What is not very clear is who set the bounds. It is easy to believe that the constitution/law does. There is then the question of who framed the constitution and make the law?  A more important question is who interpret the constitution/law and implement them?

 

Religion is an intriguing human invention. Almost always, its precepts are not conclusively subject to objective human reason and scientific verification. Religion can be a cause for good. It has also been a tool for criminal and other exploitation and subjugation of some by others. It has and continues to exacted a ponderous toll on the human race.

 

oa

 

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ZALANGA SAMUEL

Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 4:55 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

This is a repost.

 

“Much about what people make about religion and social reality depends on interpretation, their social context, and experience, even when given the same scriptures.”  zs

 

I will add self or group economic, political, and social interests.

 

“Even in America, Alexis de Tocqueville argues that people are free to hold their views but within certain bounds.”  zs

 

The same point was very well made in the movie “West Side Story” when it was said that “everything is good in America if you stay on your own side”.

 

What is not very clear is who set the bounds. It is easy to believe that the constitution/law does. There is then the question of who framed the constitution and make the law?  A more important question is who interpret the constitution/law and implement them?

 

Religion is an intriguing human invention. Almost always, its precepts are not conclusively subject to objective human reason and scientific verification. Religion can be a cause for good. It has also been a tool for criminal and other exploitation and subjugation of some by others. It has and continues to exact a ponderous toll on the human race.

 

oa

 

 

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ZALANGA SAMUEL

Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 4:55 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

[Segun Ogungbemi]

OA,

It is well stated. 

Segun Ogungbemi Ph.D

Professor of Philosophy

Adekunle Ajasin University

Akungba-Akoko, Ondo State

Nigeria

Cellphone: 08033041371

                   08024670952

Samuel

 

 

> > OA and Ken missed the point. Assuming the Jews did not arrogate to themselves or live by the tenet of being the anointed race and indoctrinate other races in the world, perhaps there wouldn't have been any good or moral reasons for their persecused the point. Assuming the Jews did not arrogate to themselves or live by the tenet of being the anointed race and indoctrinate other races in the world, perhaps there wouldn't have been any good or moral reasons for their persecution.

> >>>>> 2.2.0.0.0.0.4+of+The+Jews&oq=Gi

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