On the Concepts "Iyami/Aje" and "Witchcraft" and the Challenge of Breadth of Knowledge and Understanding about Yoruba Origin Orisha Spirituality in Itself and in Relation to Global Cultures
35 views
Skip to first unread message
Oluwatoyin Adepoju
Jan 19, 2025, 8:16:52 AMJan 19
to usaafricadialogue, Yoruba Affairs, comp...@googlegroups.com
On the Concepts "Iyami/Aje" and "Witchcraft" and the Challenge of Breadth of Knowledge and Understanding about Orisha Spirituality in Itself and in Relation to Global Cultures
Image is of a drawing of Aunt Zelda, Zelda Zanuba Heap, one of my favourite female magical figures, from English novelist's Septimus Heap series.
She embodies for me the creative and destructive possibilities of the feminine principle represented by the iyami/aje concept and the varieties of modern Western witchcraft, unified by her motherly wisdom, within a life of creative independence.
Image from https://septimusheapmagyk.fandom.com/wiki/Zelda_Zanuba_Heap
Comparative Cultural Studies of "Iyami/Aje" and "Witchcraft" Concepts
What is meant by the terms "iyami" and "aje" in Yoruba origin Orisha spirituality and do they have any relationship to the idea of the witch in Western cultural history?
Correlations Between Two Complex Terms
The terms "iyami" and "aje" are complex ideas in the history of Yoruba thought, a complexity correlative with the complexity in the development of the idea of "witch" in Western history.
Aje as Irrationally Evil, Bloodthirsty Creatures in Ese Ifa
In some ese ifa, the literary forms constituting the central information system of Ifa, the central Yoruba knowledge system, aje are irrationally bloodthirsty creatures, as exemplified by a story in which, on a journey of Orunmila, embodiment of divine wisdom, from orun, the zone of ultimate origins, to Ile, Earth, he gave the aje a ride in his stomach, but, instead of the aje to travel peacefully and gratefully in Orunmila's stomach to their mutual destination, they commenced feeding on his intestines.
Some other ese ifa project a similar image of these creatures as irrational flesh eaters, blood drinkers, deadly creatures who can never operate in mutual harmony with other beings.
Aje as Creative Cosmic Power Embodies by the Goddess Oshun and all Human Women
But, another ese ifa exists that declares "Osun is aje as all women are aje".
It depicts the Goddess Oshun 's role as strategic to the smooth running of the universe in a story that tells how the primordial sixteen Odu- divine messengers who also act as the organizational matrices of Ifa-along with Oshun, were sent to Earth by Olodumare , the creator of the universe, to organize the workings of the world but they ignored Oshun, the seventeenth Odu, upon which nothing they did worked, in spite of how hard they tried.
They returned to Olodumare to enquire what the matter was and he asked why they ignored Oshun, declaring that, without her help, nothing else could work.
The powers she embodied represented the fulcrum of the universe, the pivot on which the universe turns, enabling all other possibilities, a summation concluding in the assertion " Oshun is aje, as all women are aje", thereby elevating the aje concept from irrationally evil creatures to feminine potencies of fundamental power.
Reconciling the Contradictions in Aje Depictions in Ese Ifa
How does one account for the discrepancies between these varied ese ifa, one depicting aje as irrationally bloodthirsty creatures, figures repaying good with evil, anti-social entities who cannot be trusted, to creatively powerful personas embodying the essence of female identity, divine and human, exemplified by the Goddess Oshun, exquisite beauty and mistress of magic and divination?
Akinwumi Ogundiran's The Yoruba:A New History argues that those discrepancies suggest developments in the history of Yoruba thought, in which ese ifa functioned as vehicles for the projection of diverse ideological orientations at different points in time.
The current complexity of ideas on Iyami and aje projects these diversities.
The term "Iyami" means "Our Mothers" but it does not refer to motherhood in the conventional sense of the maternal, but a kind of motherhood that may be both maternal and deadly, feminine in a caring way yet embodying potentially destructive powers, hence in Gelede, a central institution for veneration of these arcane mothers, they are celebrated as " one who kills her husband while pitying him".
Karen Barber's I Could Sing Until Tomorrow, a book on the Yoruba poetic genre Oriki, describes the aje concept as a means of negative description of women, which is one way it has been and may still be used.
Its also used colloquially to reference a person who has capacities difficult to understand.
The Development of the Concept "Witch" in Western Cultural History
How does this complex map of ideas relate to the idea of the witch in Western history?
Pre-Modern Western Witchcraft Beliefs
The term "witch" once meant "a woman with magical powers" often associated with evil, as evidenced by European fairy tales and the executions of women for witchcraft in Europe across centuries.
This belief is exemplified by the book the Malleus Maleficarum, the "Hammer of Witches", which described the qualities of a witch and which an officer known as the Witchfinder General used in hunting witches.
The bloody history of pre-modern Western witchcraft belief marked by such infamous episodes as the Salem Witchcraft Trials in the US, which led to the deaths of so many women, eventually came to a close with such events as the announcement of the Witchcraft Act in England, which forbade anyone, under pain of persecution by the law, of referring to anyone as a witch or of referring to oneself as a witch.
The Emergence of Modern Western Witchcraft
This Act was repealed in the twentieth century, upon which Gerald Gardner in England founded Wicca, understood as a form of witchcraft, describing it as a religion, which he promoted through books and through forming a coven where rituals for this new religion were practiced.
As of today, witchcraft, as inspired by Gardner's initiative, is one of the major religions of the West, characterized by various branches defined by the ideas of particular prominent witches, such as Gardnerian Witchcraft and Alexandrian Witchcraft and those associated with ideas beyond individuals such as Satanic Witchcraft, Satanism in modern Western thought being different however, from the evil creature of the Christian Bible.
Relationships Between the Development of Iyami/Aje Conceptions and of Western Witchcraft Beliefs
What is the relationship between pre-modern and modern Western witchcraft beliefs and the history and totality of Iyami/aje beliefs?
The description of aje in some ese ifa as irrational, bloodthirsty creatures is correlative with pre-modern Western witchcraft beliefs.
The idea of iyami/aje as pivotal to cosmic order and well being and as embodying a feminine principle in its divine and human expression is conjunctive with modern Western witchcraft ideas, in which women and men are described as embodiments of divine power, while some witchcraft schools emphasize the feminine dimension of this identity, relating it to menstrual cycles as demonstrating female attunement with cosmic rhythms.
Newer Developments in Iyami/Aje Theory and Practice
Yoruba origin iyami and aje beliefs may need to be better organized in terms of theory and practice.
Diaspora Olorisha are working hard on this.
One of such is Ayele Kumari, who is developing her own iyami/ aje theories as evident from her school.
Another is Mercedes Morgana Bonilla/Reyes, who built a rich iyami/aje body of ideas and practices using dedicated Facebook pages but closed them and her practice on accusations of plagiarising the writings of Theresa Washington on iyami/aje and of scamming people by inadequate service given for the iyami/aje initiations she did and follow up training which was described as not forthcoming or inadequately provided.
Morgana, however, was a great synthesizer of diverse material in building an Iyami/aje school and it would have been great if she had honestly and publicly addressed the accusations and reworked her presentations and practice as necessary instead of shutting down the way she did.
Do Iyami/ Aje Really Exist?
What do I think of the factuality of Iyami/aje beliefs?
As with belief in God, or Olodumare, as known in Yoruba thought, whom I pray to, in Odu, in Ile, Earth, understood as a self conscious entity, in Ori, the immortal essence of self and embodiment of a person's ultimate potential, in Orisanla/Obatala, who shapes the child in the womb, in Orunmila, the wisdom present at the creation of the universe, ideas from Yoruba thought, which I employ in my spiritual practice, I don't know if they exist even though I pray to them or meditate on them, even as I acknowledge what ultimately small progress I may have made in understanding the spiritual world.
Need for Continuous and Expansive Study Within and Beyond the Orisha Oral Tradition in Orisha Spirituality
Why am I writing this and at this time?
This piece is motivated by an olorisha admonishing me with the observation that one needs to be deeply grounded in Ifa before one can talk in depth about Ifa, as suggested by my using the term "witch" as correlative with the iyami/aje concept, which the person proceeded to describe in a manner that suggested inadequate sensitivity to the complexity of the concept in its development in Ifa and Gelede and the relationship of these to Western ideas of witchcraft.
What do I take from this person's assumptions, which display their need for better grounding in the subject?
Olorisha, babalawo, onisegun and all categories of Orisha enthusiasts need to make expansive self education within and beyond the oral tradition a primary goal.
This involves not only learning what is orally communicated but what is written, writings emerging from decades of wide ranging exploration, recording and analyzing the oral tradition by scholars.
Its also vital to explore relationships between Orisha thought and practice and other schools of thought.
Such explorations as between the iyami/aje concept and the history of Western witchcraft beliefs and between these and the Tibetan Buddhist image of the Dakini and between these and the image of the Hindu Goddess Kali and between these and the Ten Mahavidyas, a cycle of Hindu Goddesses, open one's eyes to relationships between varied bodies of knowledge, demonstrating them as diverse parts of the same tapestry, distinctive threads of the same cloth, woven by humanity in trying to make sense of the universe, with particular reference to ideas about the feminine, in terms of relationships between humanity, nature. the spiritual, the divine and the cosmic.
Suggested and Annotated Further Reading
Books, some of which I have read in full or read part of or not read at all but read about.
They represent the limitations of my knowledge of the literature and are not meant to be representative
On Iyami/Aje
1. The Gelede Spectacle by Babatunde Lawal
The chapter on Yoruba philosophy of existence is fantastic on conceptions of the feminine in terms of spiritual power in the divine and human realms
2. Our Mothers, Our Powers, Our Texts:Manifestations of Aje in African Literature by Theresa Washington
3. The Architects of Existence by Theresa Washington
Expensive quotes of oral texts dealing with Iyami/aje, analyzed in a manner cetring the feminine principle.
My problem with the first book, part of which I have read, is that she uncritically accepts the bloodthirsty characterizations of aje in the oral literature, interpreting them in terms she understands as positive, an argument I find unsustainable.
I have not read any part of the second one but it promises to build on the more positive depictions of aje represented by the depiction of Oshun as aje.
4. Knowledge, Belief and Witchcraft by Barry Hallen and Olubunmi Sodipo
A study of the concept of aje across gender. Not read it but im intrigued by the account of an interview with onisegun- a class of Yoruba herbal and spiritual practitioners-who describe themselves as aje but cannot tell it to the general public for fear of being misunderstood.
5. The Yoruba: A New History by Akinwumi Ogundiran
Has a powerful section describing the implications of the "Oshun is aje as all women are aje" ese ifa as a turning point in the history of Yoruba conceptions of the feminine.
6. Yoruba Art and Language by Rowland Abiodun
Has a powerful chapter exploring Yoruba conceptions of female power in relation to the figure of Oshun.
7. Gẹlẹdẹ: Art and Female Power Among the Yoruba by Henry Drewal.
A magnificent book on the mystery and meanings of the feminine principle in Yoruba thought. I've read a small section of the book and Drewal's very sensitive essay on Gelede.
8. Developing Universal Ogboni Philosophy and Spirituality:My Journey by Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Examines various dimensions of Yoruba conceptions of the feminine in relation to the sculpture of the Yoruba origin Ogboni esoteric order, centred on veneration of Earth, an ultimate feminine principle in Yoruba thought.
Accessible at https://www.academia.edu/39426282/Developing_Universal_Ogboni_Philosophy_and_Spirituality_My_Journey
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/developing-universal-ogboni-philosophy-spirituality-my-adepoju/
On the History of Western Witchcraft Beliefs
1. The Wikipedia article on witchcraft, which I expect leads on to detailed studies on the Western context
2. Stealing Fire from Heaven: The Rise of Modern Western Magic by Neville Drury
A rich and easily understood exploration of Western magic with a powerful section on modern Western witchcraft.
3. The Spiral Dance: The Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess by Starhawk
An amazing book of Western Goddess spirituality at the intersection of the feminine, nature and the divine.
4. The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft by Ronald Hutton
A superb study of the emergence of modern Western witchcraft in the context of the history of Western magical beliefs and practices.
5. Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today by Margot Adler
Described as a classic of Western witchcraft scholarship, situating it within the development of other modern nature centred Western spiritualities.
6. The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley
A magnificent novel, dramatizing the inspirational force of modern Western nature and female centred, magical spirituality, in relation to the English sacred site Avalon, a centre of modern Western Pagan or nature centred spirituality and the legends of King Arthur, a primary literary dynamic in Western culture.
Image is of a drawing of Aunt Zelda, Zelda Zanuba Heap, one of my favourite female magical figures, from English novelist's Septimus Heap series.
She embodies for me the creative and destructive possibilities of the feminine principle represented by the iyami/aje concept and the varieties of modern Western witchcraft, unified by her motherly wisdom, within a life of creative independence.
Image from https://septimusheapmagyk.fandom.com/wiki/Zelda_Zanuba_Heap
Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Compcros
Comparative Cognitive Processess and Systems
Comparative Cultural Studies of "Iyami/Aje" and "Witchcraft" Concepts
What is meant by the terms "iyami" and "aje" in Yoruba origin Orisha spirituality and do they have any relationship to the idea of the witch in Western cultural history?
Correlations Between Two Complex Terms
The terms "iyami" and "aje" are complex ideas in the history of Yoruba thought, a complexity correlative with the complexity in the development of the idea of "witch" in Western history.
Aje as Irrationally Evil, Bloodthirsty Creatures in Ese Ifa
In some ese ifa, the literary forms constituting the central information system of Ifa, the central Yoruba knowledge system, aje are irrationally bloodthirsty creatures, as exemplified by a story in which, on a journey of Orunmila, embodiment of divine wisdom, from orun, the zone of ultimate origins, to Ile, Earth, he gave the aje a ride in his stomach, but, instead of the aje to travel peacefully and gratefully in Orunmila's stomach to their mutual destination, they commenced feeding on his intestines.
Some other ese ifa project a similar image of these creatures as irrational flesh eaters, blood drinkers, deadly creatures who can never operate in mutual harmony with other beings.
Aje as Creative Cosmic Power Embodies by the Goddess Oshun and all Human Women
But, another ese ifa exists that declares "Osun is aje as all women are aje".
It depicts the Goddess Oshun 's role as strategic to the smooth running of the universe in a story that tells how the primordial sixteen Odu- divine messengers who also act as the organizational matrices of Ifa-along with Oshun, were sent to Earth by Olodumare , the creator of the universe, to organize the workings of the world but they ignored Oshun, the seventeenth Odu, upon which nothing they did worked, in spite of how hard they tried.
They returned to Olodumare to enquire what the matter was and he asked why they ignored Oshun, declaring that, without her help, nothing else could work.
The powers she embodied represented the fulcrum of the universe, the pivot on which the universe turns, enabling all other possibilities, a summation concluding in the assertion " Oshun is aje, as all women are aje", thereby elevating the aje concept from irrationally evil creatures to feminine potencies of fundamental power.
Reconciling the Contradictions in Aje Depictions in Ese Ifa
How does one account for the discrepancies between these varied ese ifa, one depicting aje as irrationally bloodthirsty creatures, figures repaying good with evil, anti-social entities who cannot be trusted, to creatively powerful personas embodying the essence of female identity, divine and human, exemplified by the Goddess Oshun, exquisite beauty and mistress of magic and divination?
Akinwumi Ogundiran's The Yoruba:A New History argues that those discrepancies suggest developments in the history of Yoruba thought, in which ese ifa functioned as vehicles for the projection of diverse ideological orientations at different points in time.
The current complexity of ideas on Iyami and aje projects these diversities.
The term "Iyami" means "Our Mothers" but it does not refer to motherhood in the conventional sense of the maternal, but a kind of motherhood that may be both maternal and deadly, feminine in a caring way yet embodying potentially destructive powers, hence in Gelede, a central institution for veneration of these arcane mothers, they are celebrated as " one who kills her husband while pitying him".
Karen Barber's I Could Sing Until Tomorrow, a book on the Yoruba poetic genre Oriki, describes the aje concept as a means of negative description of women, which is one way it has been and may still be used.
Its also used colloquially to reference a person who has capacities difficult to understand.
The Development of the Concept "Witch" in Western Cultural History
How does this complex map of ideas relate to the idea of the witch in Western history?
Pre-Modern Western Witchcraft Beliefs
The term "witch" once meant "a woman with magical powers" often associated with evil, as evidenced by European fairy tales and the executions of women for witchcraft in Europe across centuries.
This belief is exemplified by the book the Malleus Maleficarum, the "Hammer of Witches", which described the qualities of a witch and which an officer known as the Witchfinder General used in hunting witches.
The bloody history of pre-modern Western witchcraft belief marked by such infamous episodes as the Salem Witchcraft Trials in the US, which led to the deaths of so many women, eventually came to a close with such events as the announcement of the Witchcraft Act in England, which forbade anyone, under pain of persecution by the law, of referring to anyone as a witch or of referring to oneself as a witch.
The Emergence of Modern Western Witchcraft
This Act was repealed in the twentieth century, upon which Gerald Gardner in England founded Wicca, understood as a form of witchcraft, describing it as a religion, which he promoted through books and through forming a coven where rituals for this new religion were practiced.
As of today, witchcraft, as inspired by Gardner's initiative, is one of the major religions of the West, characterized by various branches defined by the ideas of particular prominent witches, such as Gardnerian Witchcraft and Alexandrian Witchcraft and those associated with ideas beyond individuals such as Satanic Witchcraft, Satanism in modern Western thought being different however, from the evil creature of the Christian Bible.
Relationships Between the Development of Iyami/Aje Conceptions and of Western Witchcraft Beliefs
What is the relationship between pre-modern and modern Western witchcraft beliefs and the history and totality of Iyami/aje beliefs?
The description of aje in some ese ifa as irrational, bloodthirsty creatures is correlative with pre-modern Western witchcraft beliefs.
The idea of iyami/aje as pivotal to cosmic order and well being and as embodying a feminine principle in its divine and human expression is conjunctive with modern Western witchcraft ideas, in which women and men are described as embodiments of divine power, while some witchcraft schools emphasize the feminine dimension of this identity, relating it to menstrual cycles as demonstrating female attunement with cosmic rhythms.
Newer Developments in Iyami/Aje Theory and Practice
Yoruba origin iyami and aje beliefs may need to be better organized in terms of theory and practice.
Diaspora Olorisha are working hard on this.
One of such is Ayele Kumari, who is developing her own iyami/ aje theories as evident from her school.
Another is Mercedes Morgana Bonilla/Reyes, who built a rich iyami/aje body of ideas and practices using dedicated Facebook pages but closed them and her practice on accusations of plagiarising the writings of Theresa Washington on iyami/aje and of scamming people by inadequate service given for the iyami/aje initiations she did and follow up training which was described as not forthcoming or inadequately provided.
Morgana, however, was a great synthesizer of diverse material in building an Iyami/aje school and it would have been great if she had honestly and publicly addressed the accusations and reworked her presentations and practice as necessary instead of shutting down the way she did.
Do Iyami/ Aje Really Exist?
What do I think of the factuality of Iyami/aje beliefs?
As with belief in God, or Olodumare, as known in Yoruba thought, whom I pray to, in Odu, in Ile, Earth, understood as a self conscious entity, in Ori, the immortal essence of self and embodiment of a person's ultimate potential, in Orisanla/Obatala, who shapes the child in the womb, in Orunmila, the wisdom present at the creation of the universe, ideas from Yoruba thought, which I employ in my spiritual practice, I don't know if they exist even though I pray to them or meditate on them, even as I acknowledge what ultimately small progress I may have made in understanding the spiritual world.
Need for Continuous and Expansive Study Within and Beyond the Orisha Oral Tradition in Orisha Spirituality
Why am I writing this and at this time?
This piece is motivated by an olorisha admonishing me with the observation that one needs to be deeply grounded in Ifa before one can talk in depth about Ifa, as suggested by my using the term "witch" as correlative with the iyami/aje concept, which the person proceeded to describe in a manner that suggested inadequate sensitivity to the complexity of the concept in its development in Ifa and Gelede and the relationship of these to Western ideas of witchcraft.
What do I take from this person's assumptions, which display their need for better grounding in the subject?
Olorisha, babalawo, onisegun and all categories of Orisha enthusiasts need to make expansive self education within and beyond the oral tradition a primary goal.
This involves not only learning what is orally communicated but what is written, writings emerging from decades of wide ranging exploration, recording and analyzing the oral tradition by scholars.
Its also vital to explore relationships between Orisha thought and practice and other schools of thought.
Such explorations as between the iyami/aje concept and the history of Western witchcraft beliefs and between these and the Tibetan Buddhist image of the Dakini and between these and the image of the Hindu Goddess Kali and between these and the Ten Mahavidyas, a cycle of Hindu Goddesses, open one's eyes to relationships between varied bodies of knowledge, demonstrating them as diverse parts of the same tapestry, distinctive threads of the same cloth, woven by humanity in trying to make sense of the universe, with particular reference to ideas about the feminine, in terms of relationships between humanity, nature. the spiritual, the divine and the cosmic.
Suggested and Annotated Further Reading
Books, some of which I have read in full or read part of or not read at all but read about.
They represent the limitations of my knowledge of the literature and are not meant to be representative
On Iyami/Aje
1. The Gelede Spectacle by Babatunde Lawal
The chapter on Yoruba philosophy of existence is fantastic on conceptions of the feminine in terms of spiritual power in the divine and human realms
2. Our Mothers, Our Powers, Our Texts:Manifestations of Aje in African Literature by Theresa Washington
3. The Architects of Existence by Theresa Washington
Expensive quotes of oral texts dealing with Iyami/aje, analyzed in a manner cetring the feminine principle.
My problem with the first book, part of which I have read, is that she uncritically accepts the bloodthirsty characterizations of aje in the oral literature, interpreting them in terms she understands as positive, an argument I find unsustainable.
I have not read any part of the second one but it promises to build on the more positive depictions of aje represented by the depiction of Oshun as aje.
4. Knowledge, Belief and Witchcraft by Barry Hallen and Olubunmi Sodipo
A study of the concept of aje across gender. Not read it but im intrigued by the account of an interview with onisegun- a class of Yoruba herbal and spiritual practitioners-who describe themselves as aje but cannot tell it to the general public for fear of being misunderstood.
5. The Yoruba: A New History by Akinwumi Ogundiran
Has a powerful section describing the implications of the "Oshun is aje as all women are aje" ese ifa as a turning point in the history of Yoruba conceptions of the feminine.
6. Yoruba Art and Language by Rowland Abiodun
Has a powerful chapter exploring Yoruba conceptions of female power in relation to the figure of Oshun.
7. Gẹlẹdẹ: Art and Female Power Among the Yoruba by Henry Drewal.
A magnificent book on the mystery and meanings of the feminine principle in Yoruba thought. I've read a small section of the book and Drewal's very sensitive essay on Gelede.
8. Developing Universal Ogboni Philosophy and Spirituality:My Journey by Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju
Examines various dimensions of Yoruba conceptions of the feminine in relation to the sculpture of the Yoruba origin Ogboni esoteric order, centred on veneration of Earth, an ultimate feminine principle in Yoruba thought.
Accessible at https://www.academia.edu/39426282/Developing_Universal_Ogboni_Philosophy_and_Spirituality_My_Journey
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/developing-universal-ogboni-philosophy-spirituality-my-adepoju/
On the History of Western Witchcraft Beliefs
1. The Wikipedia article on witchcraft, which I expect leads on to detailed studies on the Western context
2. Stealing Fire from Heaven: The Rise of Modern Western Magic by Neville Drury
A rich and easily understood exploration of Western magic with a powerful section on modern Western witchcraft.
3. The Spiral Dance: The Rebirth of the Ancient Religion of the Great Goddess by Starhawk
An amazing book of Western Goddess spirituality at the intersection of the feminine, nature and the divine.
4. The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft by Ronald Hutton
A superb study of the emergence of modern Western witchcraft in the context of the history of Western magical beliefs and practices.
5. Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today by Margot Adler
Described as a classic of Western witchcraft scholarship, situating it within the development of other modern nature centred Western spiritualities.
6. The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley
A magnificent novel, dramatizing the inspirational force of modern Western nature and female centred, magical spirituality, in relation to the English sacred site Avalon, a centre of modern Western Pagan or nature centred spirituality and the legends of King Arthur, a primary literary dynamic in Western culture.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages