The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Edited

I understand the Taliban says women will now be allowed to work and to go to school.

I also understand they are guaranteeing press freedom within limits defined by the aviodance of character assassination.

From within my admittedly little informed mind, I then asked, if they are going to adhere to those two pillars of liberal society, if I'm using the right term, then how are they different from the Western civilization I understand they see themselves as an alternative to?

Instead of this perpetual fighting to force yourselves on people, why not present your beautiful visions for social development and persuade people to vote for you?

People are struck by the 

Taliban's resilience, but resilience to what greater good of the Afghan people?

The guns they are using, the communications systems they employ, the vehicles they drive, are all products of Western ingenuity, enabled by hard won changes in Western society that enabled those innovations.

People paid with their lives and their liberty for the freedom to think and create that took Western societies from the religion encased world of the Middle Ages to its current scienitific and technological dominance and general position in the global knowledge space as well as the social and economic freedoms and empowerments that makes the West the most advanced in all indices of human development, in spite of their inadequacies.

None of the structures that define modernity in a global sense is the outcome of non-Western societies talk less Islamic cultures.

True, Africa and particularly Asia and the Arab and Persian worlds have played strategic roles in the foundations of science and it's relationship to technology, as well as developing sophisticated learning systems and complex writing well before 

Europe but it was in Europe  that these global possibilities, in harmony with Europe's own native achievements,  achieved the highest synthesis humanity has reached so far, achievements taken further  by Europe's North American cultural satellites, particularly the US.

Human history is best understood as the development of a single group of people, demonstrating qualities that define humanity as different from other species on Earth, qualities mediated by diverse cultures, yet fundamentally the same.

All peoples have religion. How does it contribute to quality of life, is the question.

I'm not impressed by claims of superrority of value over Western societies  as defined by secularism and liberal democratice culture as these claims of superiority may be advanced by advocates of Islam.

The groups fighting globally to advance their Islamic visions are uniformly  savages, massacerers of innocents, throwbacks to the more barbaric periods of human existence when power is won by force rather than by persuasion, people unable to convince others of the quality of their vision and persuade people to give the Islamic devotees a chance to lead them but insist on forcing compliance through fear, making people fear for their lives by killing those who don't see things their way, from Africa to the Middle East to Asia, Boko Haram to Al Shabbab to Al Qaeda to the Taliban to ISIS, they are all the same-"accept us or die."

Most human beings don't want to live like that. It enhances people's sense of worth if they are allowed to decide who leads them. It strenthens the sense of life's value and encourages cooperation towards the common goals that unite a community.

The West first developed this vision of common decision making about community leadership to it's current levels.

 It was also in the West that, to the best of my knowledge, women were first allowed to vote and generally participate in running public society at the scale of participation seen today, an achievement won largely by generations of self sacrificing struggle by Western women, struggle even unto the sacrifice of their lives.

Are visions of Islamic society offering something better than this model of choosing one's leaders through opportunities open to all citizens?

There is much talk in Islam of divine revelation, of commandments from God about how human beings should live, ideas mediated by Muhammed, the founder of Islam and presented in the Koran and collections of Muhammed's sayings.

Claims of divine revelation and guidance are widespread across the world.

The Yoruba origin Ifa system of knowledge claims the world began at Ife, and have their own scriptures, ese ifa, representing wisdom mediated by divine sources. 

Judaism references the Garden of Eden as the beginning of humanity and the Talmud, among other scriptures, their own compilations of divine wisdom, which, in turn, provides the foundations of the Christian Bible, another book described by it's devotees as divinely inspired.

I'm not aware of any foundational religious texts, except perhaps the ese ifa,  more extensive than those of the Hindus, from the Rig Veda to the Mahabarata, the Ramayana and the Upanishads. 

Most, perhaps all societies have claims of divine wisdom and texts, oral or written, believed as embodying this wisdom.

The question is-how do these beliefs advance the quality of human life?

Is human life improved by the Islamic law policy of cutting off the hands of thieves? Are the thieves ' life circumstances thereby improved, making them less likely to steal?  

In being dettered from stealing by losing a hand, are they thereby more productive members of society or are they now handicapped and less likely to benefit society?

In stoning to death two married people who commit adultery, as I am informed is enjoined by Islamic law, are the reasons for that adultery thereby addressed, the psychological, interpersonal and physical issues and drives that inspired the act in the first place thereby examined and acted upon?

Does that stoning to death assist any soul searching on the part of all parties involved, leading to better understanding of questions of compatibility, mutual responsibility and individual needs?

I see Muslims can be particularly sensitive to their beliefs being addressed in ways different from their approval, leading in numerous cases to killing others for those views the Muslims find abhorrent.

Such Muslims thereby persist in attitudes it's sister religion Christianity has moved on from.

But really, what are religious beliefs if not ideas no one can prove, no one can validate, referring to realities beyond the reach of most people, an alternate universe claimed by believers to be the source of reality?

If God exists, how does killing or brutalising people who don't believe in him going to improve his own existence?

All the ideas depicting centring of human well being I have described above are represented by Western liberal culture and represent the most advanced understanding of human possibility yet reached, in my view.

Islam is centred on the prophethood of Muhammed, described as the last prophet.

What are we to say of the head of the US based religious group ECKANKAR, described by the group as the only direct representative of the Creator of the universe, a position established by the group's founder Paul Twitchell, a US citizen who made this claim for himself and the others following in leadership of the school. Their beautiful books written by Twitchell, described as divinely inspired, advance this view.

It's great to have a faith, but it's only one of many, and no more necessarily valid than all the others.

The question is- how does that faith improve human lives?

Can you convince others to share your faith through the quality of your own life and it's impact on other's lives?

What is the response to this question by  the Taliban, Boko Haram, ISIS and other Islamic groups trying to force others to live by their faith?

Until such questions are taken seriously in a sustained manner accross generations in world societies, the West, which has long built itself significantly on such questions will remain the cultural point or gravitation for most people, regardless of the system of government in their own countries.

Thanks

Toyin

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

In stoning to death two married people who commit adultery, as I am informed is enjoined by Islamic law, are the reasons for that adultery thereby addressed, the paychological, interpersonal and physical issues and drives that inspired the act in the first place thereby examined and acted upon?

[Harrow, Kenneth]

toyin, i wish you'd be more modest in your claims, even though you modestly described your mind as "little informed."

you include too much for anyone to really want to respond in detail, but i hope i can say just a few small things. (you are hardly little informed, either)

i have no reason in particular to want to praise the west at the expense of the rest of us, so to speak. but even trying to do this backwards, defensively speaking about other regions, i don't quite see things as you do here.  if a stirrup is invented in one location, and other people see it and knowledge about it spreads, does it make sense to give credit to the initial place where it was invented for its technological or inventive superiority?

i don't really think it makes any sense. all technological or intellectual knowledge always spread, from multiple locations--and either was stymied by narrow minded people, or grew despite them.

if i invented a new way to interpret cinema, am i a representative of some group that gets the credit? so far, almost everything i feel capable of writing about is african cinema, and in the past african literature. i read the novels and poetry and drama, i saw the films, i get immersed in that culture. i learned film theory, literary theory; i studied my mbembe and mudimbe, but also my foucault, without whom mudimbe would make much less sense. but foucault didn't invent the wheel, and if you want to push back, you have a whole lot of people before him who speculated on society and reality, leading to those whose thought he used.

i am a fan of glissant who argues against notions of origin, who uses models of rhizomic thought, who likes the roots that spread out, not that focus down.

 my point is that i can't write a word about, say Yaaba, which i am looking at today, without dozens and dozens of africans, frenchies, americans, belgians, etc., having shaped how i actually can see the film, and think about it. i am trying to use a book on world literature, and works on Time in science, to understand how age functions in that film, and the world lit book was written by pheng cheah. is he asian? he teaches in berkely. am i supposed to be what my grandfather in russia was, or am i american, or a michigander. all these labels are far too narrow and limiting.

i am struck by how scientific knowledge spreads and is collectively created. how did einstein work out his theories? how did quantum develop, unless you count an ENORMOUS collectivity of brilliant scientists from england-u.s.,.-russia-india, etc, who worked out the math. who today is peopling those grad programs? certainly more asians than westerners.

it wasn't western liberalism, but human brilliance, period. we are in it together, and i hope we can understand knowledge as a shared enterprise, not one that works better when pitting the muslims against the west. that didn't work for me when i tried to understand the sufi implications in Une aventure ambigue or in laye's Le regard du roi. i learned and learned the beauty of muslim cultures. should that be forgotten because of fanatics. what culture doesn't have its fanatics today? none.

it won't work in today's world of shared culture either. we are in it together.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 9:48 AM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>; Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin....@gmail.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfPYyB5ag%3D72_U33gY%2BhwApVct-OdoeKi3Nvtc%3DiJcvp-Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

a small footnote. i read an article this morning from the israeli newspaper, ha-aretz, describing how women's images are blacked out on public billboards or images. not by muslims, my friend, but orthodox jews in israel. no doubt brooklyn would inspire similar thoughts.

is there anyplace on earth where some equivalent is not blacked out? how about, for instance, trump's messages on facebook? not that i disagree with barring anything from that maniac; but just to remark that the taliban's censorship has its equivalents in all societies, even if it takes different forms.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 9:48 AM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>; Yoruba Affairs <yoruba...@googlegroups.com>; Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju <toyin....@gmail.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Ken,

I stated that all peoples have contributed to the development of science and technology but these developments have been synthesied by Europe and taken to heights no other people have achieved.

It's a long road from Chinese invention of rocketry to the German development of the V2 to the US space programs and Elon Musk's company being the first private company to take a payload into space.

Could Musk, Branson and Bezos achieve what they are doing now in space exploration if they were in Asia, South America, Africa or the Arab worlds?

If not,  why?

Is Elon Musk's decision to move from South Africa to the US justified, in his dream that the US is where things happen for an aspiring engineer such as himself?

Musk  was s student at Stanford, same as the founders of Google and Yahoo. The synergy between Stanford and Silicon Valley is well known, leading to various countries trying to replicate that model, as represented, for example, by Trinity College, Cambridge setting up Cambridge Science Park.

Environment, enablement and ability must come together to maximise human possibility. Those efforts at social engineering in the name of scientific and technological creativity are based on that understanding.

How can you develop scientific ingenuity if your focus is on enforcing religious dictates?

Netwon's achievement in physics, the basis of the modern scientific world view, was gained at the cost of concealing the scope of his religious orientation.

Galileo, one of those whose work Newton built upon, was placed under house arrest for daring to advance the Copernican view that the Earth revolves around the sun, all bcs the Church saw the idea as anti Christianity.

The Muslim world achieved well before the  West the the levels of polymathic creativity the West later celebrated in the Renaissance but while the West took this culture forward into what we now call multidisciplinarity, the Islamic world has not sustained a similar momentum.

Well before Leonardo da Vinci and other Western polymaths, we had Muslims like Ibn Arabi, great medical researcher, great philosopher and more.

Why is the Islamic world no longer a leader in the world of knowledge?

Why is the West the current centre?

Is it not possible that the Islamic world could not sustain that momentum beceauase religious fundamentalism became too constricting?

The medeival Western Church  was almost, if not as repressive as the Islamic extremists, but through such struggles as the Reformation, the West moved on.

A good no of Islamic socities have not moved on. The extremist Muslims are insisting that moving on is anti-Islam.

Religion is based on faith, not knowledge.

You cannot run human socities successfully on faith beyond a particular point.

The human being is an embodied creature for whom the senses and the intellect, complemented by imagination, are their primary cognitive faculties.

Without developing systems of knowledge that people can readily employ using these faculties and base their socities on them, the society is in trouble.

Religion is helpful as inspiration but no more.

When people start insisting on running their society based on the revelations, described as coming from God, that is the seed of backwardness.

God, whose existence is unconfirmed and unverifiable. Revelations whose source is untraceable. 

Any society that bases itself on these questionable even if inspiring orientations is likely to be faced with a crisis of identity because the Western modernity they often rely on to live in the modern world was enabled by moving beyond such inadequacies.

It's not hard to trace the emergence of what defines today's world from that of 4 centuries ago.

It's knowledge and social organisation.

The one group of people who have moved farthest from their beginnings are Europe and it's cultural satellites in North America.

The Saudis are still monarchical and religiously governed. Europe left that behind centuries ago. Iran is operating a largely religious system which it mixes with the inescapable Western component. I'm not aware they are known to have any new knowledge to share with the world although I admire their nuclearisation program as an expression of self definition in a world of mutual deterrent.

The Islamic extremists have jettisoned the philosophical struggles in the Islamic world between the sacred and the secular, faith and intellect, represented by such figures as the philosophic conflict between Avicenna and Al Ghazali and the insights of an Ibn Arabi who sought to unify all faiths within his person as a Muslim and have instead gravitated to the crudest, most inhuman possibilities of Islam.

Elements of the inhuman fanaticism especially developed by the Abrahamic religions, being religions with roots in self execeptionalism and the denial of the legitimacy of others' views, a stance Christianity has moved furthest from, may be seen as demonstrated by the influence of the religious right in Israel and perhaps in the savagery of Israel towards the Palestinians, but there is a world of difference between such Jews covering up images of women and insisting women must be covered from head to toe in something that impedes movement and communication, which I understand had been Taliban policy.

I'm shocked a scholar such as yourself is equating the Twitter ban of Trump with Taliban censorship.

You are working too hard at the cultural equality perspective, a non-factual position not even shared by Islamic extremists whom you are trying to relativise and who are driven by a warped sense of their superiority of values.

All cultural values are not equal.

Cultural values that required the killing of twins, as was once done in a part of Nigeria, that legitimised human sacrifice, as  described as once done by the then highly publicly respected Ogboni in Nigeria, of burying people with a dead monarch as described as  was once done by the Benin and Yoruba of Nigeria are barbaric cultural values because the sigficance of human life has never varied across time, it only grows in appreciation.

What is the Taliban censoring?

Are they censoring abuses to human rights, unjustified attacks on people, racist comments, and other forms of behaviour that fall below the generally understood standard of human well being and dignity?

Are they censoring anything against their efforts to complel others to live by their faith defined by constricting human development?

Why was Trump sanctioned?

Was he sanctioned bcs the social media networks were trying to prevent him from revealing the conspiracy that saw him losing the last elections?

Were they trying to prevent him from enlightening the world as to why even in states with Republican govts he lost decisively in spite of his efforts to "correct" the democratic process in the spirit of regiimes elsewhere where the ruler's will is paramount?

Were the social networks being sensitive to the danger of their networks being used by a fanatical demagogue to further inspire his supporters as he was able to do in mobilising them  in commiting the desecration of their own democracy in the attack on Capitol Hill after the armed forces had insisted that it was loyal to the nation not to any individual, indirectly referencing the megalomaniac ex- President?

Let's be careful of the dark side of liberal culture, where all values are equal, all actions are relative.

The violent Muslims are largely primitives, confused about the future of Islam in a world which has left them behind but which they are trying to pull back.

Thanks

Toyin 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB51912F4F2AF309D121B251DBDAFF9%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

toyin, it is the middle of my working time, so i shouldn't take time off to respond. i will try to do justice to your thoughts later, though i suspect i am in agreement to a large extent.

i read rovelli's account of the development of physics, have you? it's really brilliant. the christian period after rome really impeded scientific thought till gallileo. i have nothing to object to in this, that is, in charging religion, in certain periods of history, in impeding other forms of understanding. the christian impediments were incredible, not least because, like trump supporters today, dumb enough to shoot themselves in the foot.

anyway, i think you need to refine your arguments somewhat. what happened after world war one, in the developments of science, specifically physics and math? the centers were in germany, and secondarily in britain and  france and a bit here and there elsewhere. with the rise of hitler and ww2, it all ended for germany, and the u.s. and ussr took the best brains, or the best brains migrated. some of those best brains were already in russia, and in the u.s. but it took scientific centers and money to push the work of science forward. there are outposts in places like waterloo in canada, but it really was the money and ultimately prestige of einsteen oppenheimer and all those russian geniuses that drew the smartest students to princeton and then cal tech mit you name it. without tons more money the labs wouldn't have been possible, and the sciences followed not just the environment as you put it, but the investments that were necessary.

that's now shifting with the money. china has investments and the science is shifting. the europeans maybe have some more to invest. but unless you put that into the equation we are too simplistic in simply assignment religion the role of impediment.

and of course, religion in afghanistan has nothing to do with religion in morocco say, where scientific institutes function perfectly well, where advancements are possible now. i don't see jews who embrace science being tied to the orthodox idiocies of the fundamentalists, and many muslim kids are also embracing science. you can't have boko harem unless there is boko to complain about, and between modern scientific knowledge and religious fervor it is clear which will win.

great scientific minds have no problem with a sense of some divine aspect to the universe: they just don't waste much time on it, or any time. it's like a beautiful work of art, an aesthetic that lifts you, but has nothing to do with the equations that make the science work. even the afghanis will have to yield to that imperative, as i suspect is happening now in iran and saudi arabia. after all, who is building the nuclear labs? not the imams.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 3:42 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfMd7y8CJ9AtrsTxdqL1njs4OTAq5HnpC%2BPUFeSFOkBVCA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Thanks, Ken.

I'm trying to understand the refinements you think I should make.

Money is used to fund what people value.

The US and USSR founded technological research and reaped the rewards.

But underlying all contemporary science are foundations laid in Europe between the 17th to the 20th centuries, which, in turn built on previous European and non-European  advancements.

All Islamic societies are not identical. 

What, however, is the most prominent face of Islam since the closing years of the 20th century?

As for China, I'm not able to understand how such a tightly controlled system could  achieve maximum productivity.

When last did any fundamentally new development in science and technology, as different from using Western  inventions, emerge from China?

If any such has emerged, what is the volume and momentum of such achievements?

On science and religion, Newton and Kepler, two foundational thinkers in scientific cosmology, might not agree with you on a disconnection between the practice of science and religious faith.

Newton's conclusion to his Principia is classic in celebrating the inspiration of religious belief, depicting religious cosmology in relation to scientific cosmology, describing a relationship between faith and reason in terms of how much human beings can know and describing the techniques used by a scientist in developing knowledge of the physical universe to the scope available to humanity.

Immanuel Kant, philosopher and scientist, explores the scope of human reason in relation to faith as he celebrates the glory of the material universe in terms evoking spiritual identity.

Kepler correlates the creativity of the human mind with that of divine creativity.

Aristotle, father of Western science, is described by Jonathan Lear in Aristotle: The Desire to Understand, as seeking a synthesis of knowledge in divine mind, if I recall correctly. 

Hindu yantra theory is a description of the underlying mathematical structures of the cosmos in terms of both exquisite mathematics, as in the Sri Yantra, and ideas of divine identity.

It's possible for a scientist to be deeply inspired by religion.

Religion can inspire a critical quest for knowledge.  It can also obstruct it.

Thanks

Toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB519129E46D3A9A2E1C1619D0DAFF9%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[OLAYINKA AGBETUYI]

Religion inspired modern western science yet is criticised by such science by a process of ratiocination and displacement ( open ended religions like Ifá, and to some extent Christianity do this well, but Islam lags behind in this functionality, perpetually seeing religion inscribed on an immutable tablet of stone- hence the atavistic Sharia law.)

What is called religion over the ages involves a critical look at the universe by a community of specialised knowers who shroud their discoveries from the commonality by the concept of God(s) to exert control on the commonality of human societies.

That is why religion is the first political party invented by humankind.

OAA

Sent from my Galaxy

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfPsbjAzRObv8LrH4rX1Esi2L%2BfnwsmfJOjhm%3DKE79ddqA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju the alchemist,

I suppose that it's alright for you to be either sitting in the NEPA darkness over there in Lagos, contemplating the cosmos, thinking about Newton, trying to find your computer keyboard by candlelight or alternately luxuriating somewhere outside your study, washed by some moonlight, contemplating moving covertly or not so covertly on some big booty, in the darkness of night or blessed by moonlight – not war booty, but big, beautiful booty...

Seriously, if not, and reserving big booty for later, you could start here with this piece by Pound for your special contemplation as it covers what Professor Harrow has been getting across to us or at least to me in this thread - so far.

Today, Ashura, the 10th of Muharram is the saddest day in the Islamic calendar. You may well imagine how it is being observed in Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, all thoughts on the significance of Imam Hussain's sacrifice – as pivotal Islamic idealism and chivalry, and in the eternal battle between good and evil. an exemplary lesson on the sacrifice that's sometimes necessary when standing up to tyranny.

War is hell. Remember the Iran - Iraq War …

Who can predict what the Middle East will look like in 2041?

I guess if you had for some reason or other been in Afghanistan a few days ago when the Taliban took over and declared, not martial law but Sharia Law you would have been one of those ones scrabbling for a place in one of the big bomber planes hoping to get airlifted the hell out of Kabul - and ditto you would also be one of the ones scrambling to be airlifted to the United States should the Nigerian Taliban eventually sweep across the country and miraculously set up a new government in Abuja.

I'd just like to partly clarify one thing that needs clarification and leave it to Ken to explain what he meant by “pakistan is the key to afghanistan”

Just see what you get when you Google “ Pakistan is the key to Afghanistan “

The Taliban were mostly educated in Pakistani Schools, by which token Pakistan is the ideological headquarters of the Taliban. Pakistan itself cannot be accused of any of the excesses of the earlier Taliban rule in Afghanistan and therefore let us hope, and pray that Pakistan will exercise a restraining hand on their Taliban students now in power in Afghanistan....

Let us pray as you continue your philosophical ruminations about the meaning of history and thank your lucky stars that you are not in Kandahar just now...

[Harrow, Kenneth]

so, my first point would be that the word "religion" is being too loosely to be useful here.

if it is the belief that there is something besides the immediately material realm we inhabit, we can say, ok, that seems easy enough, and so what.

or we could say, as i would want to say after reading a plethora of recent physics books, that there is no adequate vocabulary to distinguish the material realm from a spiritual one in any way that makes sense. it is perfectly reasonable for an einstein to admire the beauty of the workings of the universe, that he describes in the equations that define relativity, special and general. if he, or you, want to call that entity spiritual or divine, what is lost? and nothing particularly is gained, except some comfort. i read about the attempts to understand and describe the basic building blocks of the universe, and the forces. we get down to the tiniest elements, which might be strings so small that nothing smaller in the universe is possible. and they vibrate. they form combinations; those in turn move and interact so as to produce forces, waves, particles, etc.

their structures might have come about w the big bang. no one knows. their forces seem to collapse in black holes. their existence can be tracked over time. all this is based on observations, and then equations to describe what was observed.

i will say truthfully i cannot imagine such an extraordinary set of discoveries, such incredibly brilliant work that resulted in contemporary physics--relativity, quantum--placed in relation to the theologies of historical religions. it makes no sense to me, so i believe that the religious beliefs should be compartmentalized into some other location where explanations for existence are not at all taken seriously.

we want to live with each other in a decent world. we want to have ethical behavior as the foundation for our relations with others. we want a moral code to define our behavior. if some people prefer to derive these codes from sacred texts, sacred stories in which they want to believe, that seems fine to me.

but in the end, the authority of religions, all religions, should stop there. let people hear the stories, believe what they want, and accept the moral lessons to frame their lives. but it is inconceivable nowadays to imagine that this side to belief has anything to do with the physical sciences, the world we inhabit. or our intellects and means of acquiring knowledge.

when humans tried to understand the world, and some times framed their beliefs in the form of  spiritual beings and their histories, why call that religion? why prioritize any of those beliefs over any others, the way missionaries do?

what distinguishes religious belief from scientific knowledge? why suspend our rational thinking process, our abilities to interpret either texts or observations, in the name of religion or science? the real challenge for us is to frame our understandings and beliefs not as working in opposition to each other, but as supporting the sense we can make of the world. those who dismiss science have no excuse for excluding a branch of knowledge that should only help frame their beliefs into sensible forms. that does not mean being christian or jewish or muslim or a believer in a traditional religion; it means working out a universe with values that are decent and not dogmatic. beyond that, the theologies and their texts formed over the ages have wonderful depth, value, worth, that we could ponder and comment on forever.

but the minute those interpretations become science lessons, or metaphors for science lessons, they become worthless since they can't function within the rationalities of reasonable knowledge given our current understandings of the forces of the universe.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 6:55 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>; usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/DB6PR04MB29820A3637E54491634B46EAA6FF9%40DB6PR04MB2982.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

so, my first point would be that the word "religion" is being too loosely to be useful here.

if it is the belief that there is something besides the immediately material realm we inhabit, we can say, ok, that seems easy enough, and so what.

or we could say, as i would want to say after reading a plethora of recent physics books, that there is no adequate vocabulary to distinguish the material realm in any way that makes sense. it is perfectly reasonable for an einstein to admire the beauty of the workings of the universe, that he describes in the equations that define relativity, special and general. if he, or you, want to call that entity spiritual or divine, what is lost? and nothing particularly is gained, except some comfort. i read about the attempts to understand and describe the basic building blocks of the universe, and the forces. we get down to the tinest elements, which might be strings so small that nothing smaller in the universe is possible. and they vibrate. they for combinations; those in turn move and interact so as to produce forces, waves, particles, etc.

their structures might have come about w the big bang. no one knows. their forces seem to collapse in black holes. their existence can be tracked over time. all this is based on observations, and then equations to describe what was observed.

i will say truthfully i cannot imagine such an extraordinary set of discoveries, such incredibly brilliant work that resulted in contemporary physics--relativity, quantum--placed in relation to the theologies of historical religions. it makes no sense to me, so i believe that the religious beliefs should be compartmentalized into some other location where explanations for existence are not at all taken seriously.

we want to live with each other in a decent world. we want to have ethical behavior the foundation for our relations with others. we want a moral code to define our behavior. if some people prefer to derive these codes from sacred texts, sacred stories in which they want to believe, that seems fine to me.

but in the end, the authority of religions, all religions, should stop there. let people hear the stories, believe what they want, and accept the moral lessons to frame their lives. but it is inconceivable nowadays to imagine that this side to belief has anything to do with the physical sciences, the world we inhabit.

when humans tried to understand the world, and some times framed their beliefs in the form of  beings and their histories, why call that religion? why prioritize any of those beliefs over any others, the way missionaries do?

what distinguishes religious belief from scientific knowledge? why suspend our rational thinking process, our abilities to interpret either texts or observations, in the name of religion or science? the real challenge for us is to frame our understandings and beliefs not as working in opposition to each other, but as supporting the sense we can make of the world. those who dismiss science have no excuse for excluding a branch of knowledge that should only help frame their beliefs into sensible forms. that does not mean being christian or jewish or muslim or a believer in a traditional religion; it means working out a universe with values that are decent and not dogmatic.

 i'd recommend reading carlo rovelli's Reality Is Not WHat It Seems, to get this story on physic's development (and what impeded it over time).

[Harrow, Kenneth]

i agree with cornelius onhis points, except that pakistanis pretty hard on those who do not hoe a pretty narrow religious, muslim line. if you dare depart from basic muslim beliefs, in a narrow fundamentalist sense, you risk being punished or killed. remember malala.

i don't think that is enough to explain a whole society. pakistan is no doubt rich in a number of wonderful ways, from the arts to culture, and probably learning. but they are too rigid when it comes to offering critiques of religion. remember malala.

cross the border into india, and the same story, reversed. if you are muslim and wish to marry a hindu person, you will be punished and forbidden from doing so.

they are nuts. and the people who wish to live by their hearts and souls instead of dogmatic faith pay the price.

remember malala,

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 7:00 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/6b97d9ff-bf91-4f9b-ac9b-261224918e79n%40googlegroups.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

a last point on toyin adepoju's attack on islam.

toyin, you seem to be saying that all muslims share the same beliefs with regard to modernity, to western thought, to the sciences, to progress, etc.

you wrote: "The groups fighting globally to advance their Islamic visions are uniformly  savages, massacerers of innocents, throwbacks to the more barbaric periods of human existence when power is won by force rather than by persuasion, people unable to convince others of the quality of their vision and persuade people to give the Islamic devotees a chance to lead them but insist on forcing compliance through fear, making people fear for their lives by killing those who don't see things their way, from Africa to the Middle East to Asia, Boko Haram to Al Shabbab to Al Qaeda to the Taliban to ISIS, they are all the same-"accept us or die."

i remember when the ALA conference was held in alexandria, on the eve of the war in iraq. our speaker, who had to replace edward said who was ill with the cancer that took his life, was an academic in egypt. he said, if you (americans) invade and impose a regime on iraq, you will only lend credence to the fundamentalists who claim that westernization and modernization are inimical to islam. you will make it impossible for us, who are liberal minded muslims, to speak to the people with credibility.

the muslims you are describing, toyin, represent a piece of islam, just as i would say trump represents a group of americans. in both cases, the real victims of these militant fundamentalist types are the less dogmatic, more progressive, more liberal, more open minded people. often, the muslim militants' real target is other muslims. consider the sahel, for instance, or even afghanistan. the target of trump's hatred is liberals (in the american sense), and he uses hatred of others to fuel the flames. the islamic fundamentalists similarly use xenophobia, hatred of others, of "non-believers") as reason to attack those liberal or modernist muslims.

who is in the majority, in the muslim world? by far the non-fundamentalists. that should be obvious in nigeria, where boko harem hardly represents the majority, even in the north. where their targets are often muslim people, who don't succomb to their views. the extreme views you describe do not fit the vast majority of people in almost any muslim country i know, unless they are at war, like yemen. it doesn't describe any country in north africa, or even in the middle east. i would argue it doesn't describe iran, even. itsleadership is revolutionary guards, its people are not.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 10:46 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: The Return of the Taliban in Afghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

 

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Ken,

What aspects of my writing give credence to your view that I see all Muslims as sharing those inhuman ideologies?

You quoted me as referencing "groups fighting globally to advance their Islamic visions...from ...Boko Haram to Al Shabbab to Al Qaeda to the Taliban to ISIS.."

How does that quote imply or state I'm referring to all Muslims?

I stated the value of the Islamic extremists persuading other Muslims of the value of their extremist vision.

Does that not suggest a recognition that violent extremism is not shared by all Muslims?

In the light of these questions about my writing, what do you think justifies your describing my views as an attack on Islam?

Perhaps you were referencing my description of the Islamic world generally as not having moved beyond particular limitations.

The more liberal Muslims certainly exist but what is the dominant force in Islam generally?

That does not suggest that all Muslims are violent extremists. The violent extremists represent a heightening  of tendecies already present in Islamic history and thought, tendencies some Muslims choose not to identify with, but which some insist on identifying with.

Muhammed was a warrior and empire builder, a person described as forcing people to accept Islam or face the consequences.

Today's Islamic groups are following the same vision while some other Muslims choose not to live that way.

What is the level of critical interrogation the Koran and Islamic law have sustained at the hands of Muslims?

How free has Koranic commentary been?

Why is Sharia law still represented by such short sighted inhumanities as cutting off people's hands for theft or stoning them to death for adultery?

Those are clearly the dictates of a less sophistcated age, in which understanding of human nature was less complex.

To what degree has Sharia law undergone reform?

My argument is that Islam as a whole seems stuck in relatively uncritical approaches to it's spirituality, an orientation sustained by the muderous tendencies of those Muslims, terrorists and average citizens, who make themselves killer enforcers of Islamic purity  as well as the more extreme ones who organise themselves to force others through sustained fear of death through their terror to submit to their rigid forms of Islam.

In the midst of this crisis, how loud are the voices of Muslims condemning the inhumanities of their extremist brethren or in calling for reform within their religion?

I'm making statements as well as asking questions.

Thanks

Toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB51915530C19C234FA4EEE813DAC09%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Thanks Ken. Rich food for thought.

But the religion/science combination has been advanced by various scientists, early modern and contemporary.

Newton, early modern.

Erwin Schrodinger, 20th century, in his deriving inspiration from Indian thought.

Ramanujan, 20th century, described as seeing his mathematical discoveries as inspired by his family goddess.

Fritjof Capra whose Tao of Physics correlates modern science and Asian religions.

Various approaches to this question.

Thanks

Toyin

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, 10:00 Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB51912DE70EAD1A19662AB64BDAC09%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

toyin, you bring in so much to chew on

i'd want to distinguish between a literal relationship between specific religious doctrine or thought, and more vague, general ones. let's say i say, i see the fingerprint of god in the universe. does that really bring religion and science together? does anything newton saw in religion bear on f=ma? before newton thinkers in the middle ages postulated that angels held up arrows in flight. after newton they spoke of gravity's force as inversely proportional to distance.  they forgot about the angels.

the equations made them forget about ether later on. let's finally admit it: nietzsche was right about it, in his Zarathustra.

nobody here (meaning me) has anything but love for buddhism and hinduism. although i hate the formalist injunctions of religions, all religions, but their incredible metaphysics are inspiring. like air, breathing in.  they give the mind life; but they are not the same as science, not the life it gives.

i love the sufi tales; but i hate the laws/rules/injunctions that judeo-christian-muslim religions seek to impose on the world. the sufi tales enrich our lives; the laws enrich the powerful rulers, and enable them to impose their will and laws. that's the whole drama of camara laye's Le regard du roi, a beautiful novel about these two impulses in religion set at odds with each other. the rigorous salafis of saudi arabia banned sufism; the looser models of morocco or turkey or iran, egypt, sudan, or afghanistan gave them a home. now the taliban will tear down the remaining beautiful statues of buddha and burn the sufis at the stake or stone them to death.

think of The Conference of Birds. then contrast it with the good vs evil injunctions.

another place where you see those two tendencies at war with each other is in Sissako's powerful, beautiful film, Timbuktu, where the beauties of life before the islamists arrived are celebrated over and over. love is stoned to death after they arrive.

the same pattern of sufi dance and beauty in tayeb salih, especially in The Wedding of Zein, with the feeble minded protagonist as touched by the divine--the exact same figure in erasmus's In Praise of Folly, with jesus as the figure of the fool.

religion as inspiring, religion as strict lawmaker. two sides at war with each other, as in life....

i do not see religion as having the single face those dogmatic types believe in, but as having two sides. i love the side that lets us celebrate eshu; not the side that burned his statues and banned his worship.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>

Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 7:09 AM

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfO%2B8V%3DfgvB_OQwWjXVU2o2ht_ubb_2y3RJhmk%2BHZFe-pQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

toyin, your questions are good.

my understanding is that the fundamentalist, strict, militant version of islam you describe is not only not the only version, but not the dominant, not the version most muslims in most muslim countries support. i'd bet my hat on that.

the tradition of commentary and hadith represents one side of the religious branches, where study and thought continue, even if, as in christianity and judaism, orthodox branches overrely on frozen texts.

. but more relevant is the modernist tendency everywhere in the muslim world since the erly 20th century, w figures like  mohammed ali in egypt or ataturk. the modernizing dominant tendency was in iraq, under the dictator sadam. it is certainly dominant throughout north africa, and lebanon. well, practically everywhere in the muslim world. i don't know why you'd want to focus on the extremists, who are, i agree, horrible, as if they themselves represent the whole of islam.

so, i'll give a jewish equivalent. we have orthodox, or what are called ultraorthodox. they hold beliefs and practice social ways like the islamists. no one would say they represent or encompass judaism, or all the jews, or the dominant tendency that defines the religion. same with boko haram or the others. i see them oppressing other muslims in their neck of the world; kidnapping other muslim children, holding them for ransom.

in some places islam and christian sections are at war, like the c.a.r. but the real work of islamists is not jihad but power and money.

there are islamist parties that are not violent or extreme: the ruling party in tunisia, and the brotherhood in egypt.

you want to argue that violent extremism represents all muslims. to be sure, liberal muslim voices have been stifled by circumstances: the threats from the extremists, and the islamophobia on the other that would make intra-muslim critique appear to be traitrous. but the violent extremists are a minority, even a small minority. examples could be drawn from the muslim communities in europe, where the small minority of extremists has given a bad name to all and fed into the rightwing islamophobes.

best

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>

Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 7:00 AM
To: usaafricadialogue <USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfNRcFsCNwydQgENsXP82nN%3DvYcUSPpjgp2zQGaHiftYag%40mail.gmail.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

fine writing and beautiful ideas Ken.

you are one of my initiators  into reading about Sufism, Islamic mysticism.

the art on the first page of your RAL essay ''A Sufi Interpretation  of Le Regarde de Roi''[ The Radiance of the King]  remains indelible in my memory as commemorating an early encounter with the study of Sufism in an African context. I also have your two (?) books on Islam in African literature. 

thanks

toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB519100C8DDBC89DBAC6C9ABCDAC09%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

thanks for those clarifications, Ken. ill be more alert to such contextualizations.  

could you clarify this-what does Islamist mean in this context-''there are islamist parties that are not violent or extreme''

im not describing the Islamic extremists as representing Islam. 

my view is closer to this from you-

to be sure, liberal muslim voices have been stifled by circumstances: the threats from the extremists, ...  the muslim communities in europe, where the small minority of extremists has given a bad name to all and fed into the rightwing islamophobes.

On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 at 16:14, Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB5191F36339595493D787BCF0DAC09%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

i think the muslim brotherhoods have been generally, broadly defined by the western press as islamist, throwing together moderate and more extremist groups. the Ennahda tunisian "muslim" or islamist party has also been described as democratic. it functions in a multiparty, plural party democracy. in egypt the muslim brotherhood, where Sissi finally got elected after the arab spring began, was also like that. i would certainly distance those parties from al qaeda or boko haram or the alqaeda parties of the maghreb or function in the sahel, which are very militant.

i know there were several such parties at play when timbuktu was taken, back some 20 years ago; and that the various parties were very different.

everyone nowadays is speculating on what colors the taliban will fly today. i haven't a clue. but isis in syria was monstrous. between them and ennadha is a day and night difference.

the most interesting for us might be the muslim brotherhood in egypt, which nassar and sadat succeeded him, they tried to parlay their turn to military dictatorship on the suppression of the brotherhood, which they unjustly painted as violent fanatics.

that's all. we need to be very cautious in this arena about throwing all these groups into the same hat, when in fact they might be not only different from each other, but much closer to humanist values in many important ways.

an equivalent in this country was when the black panthers were demonized, while they were, like the brotherhood, concerned with actually getting food into poor neighborhoods.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>

Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 2:07 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfOB8ms1S2N8ESC2NHfJoVw3ML_YwF8ThQ4%2BX4wOuErePQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

thanks toyin. feels like a million years ago.... but i admit having fallen in love with sufi islam thanks to the openings those novels and stories gave me.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>

Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 1:59 PM
To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfO%3DQ97M-vWNCxVKn_eZFfwvnvyf0e10wEM%3DCXLyrVs3gw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

striking summation ken and a moving comment on the black panthers 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB519130A71CD47956088BE53FDAC09%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

I'm just an observer.

As the book people dem say, “all's well that ends well” - in this thread the denouement to what started off as denunciation, condemnation, critical disagreeableness verging on Islamophobia and disdain for the underachievers among the non-Westerners wound up in amicable reconciliation with Adepoju moving full cosmic circle and now in full cosmic embrace and essential agreement with Don Harrow who among other achievements can count his induction of Adepoju into reading about Sufism! Alhamdulillah!

If we should substitute comic for cosmic, we get another picture.

I thank Almighty God, the Omniscient & Omnipotent that this discussion is over, at least temporarily the old man has died - the death of those nafs, until Adepoju's resurrection and next resurgence when he reverts to conflating his arch-enemies with peaceable Islam - his arch-enemies, namely paranoid apparitions and apprehensions of “Northern Hegemony” the malevolent & violent intentions of Boko Haram, the supportive role of Miyetti Allah with regard to Fulani Herdsmen and what in a less sober state of mind Adepoju refers to as Brother Buhari's “terrorist Government”

Of course, in the final analysis we could endorse Adepoju's universal mission, and alchemy the means whereby the nafs (in human nature) are crucified, transmuted to gold – to goodness and humility in the name of peace and love!

After all our agreements and disagreements there is still one outstanding matter in today's world of Islam the matter of blasphemy and how it's viewed by Sharia Law. It is an area in which we do not expect any trouble in Afghanistan since, as one of the Taliban spokespersons informed us on BBC today, “99.999%” of the people of Afghanistan are Muslims (all kinds) none of  whom is going to blaspheme that Muhammad salallahu alaihi wa salaam is not a prophet, or that Allah is not God or - like that egomaniac Christopher Hitchens who wrote a book that “ God Is Not Great”

In his “ An Afterword” to the 1994 edition of “ a rabbi talks with Jesus” the rabbi in question, Jacob Neusner had this to say on page 149 of that book:

 “ I cannot imagine a Jew who grew up in a Muslim country writing such a book about Muhammad.( or surviving its publication for very long”

I'd like to add that

1. The gate of Ijtihad has not been closed in Shia Jurisprudence ( as eloquently discussed in Ashk Dahlén's seminal Islamic Law, Epistemology and Modernity: Legal Philosophy in Contemporary Iran – and also some of the perambulations to be found in the blog and writings of one Abdolkarim Soroush

2. The perception among some of the notable Shia Scholars that Shiism incorporates “sufism”

Virus-free. www.avast.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/usaafricadialogue/G3Yv_SyM_MU/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfP6vOd0YmX4xpFwgtKPSCEpf4uzOYrJBXc_j%2Bibj1XxAA%40mail.gmail.com.

Virus-free. www.avast.com

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

old essay and long ago projects but a scholar's oeuvre resonates in different ways with different people 

On Thu, 19 Aug 2021 at 20:06, Harrow, Kenneth <har...@msu.edu> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB5191448B95568324ED7D7A84DAC09%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

In response to that Pound poem that I posted, my most preceptive Igbo Bro sent me this message, a fitting ( laudable) rejoinder for one so immersed in genocide studies :

What was his reward for flattering evil? : Coming to terms with Ezra Pound’s politics

(That was some real food for thought, about the journey from gladness to madness )

I could only reply that I/we /some of us are well aware of Ezra Pound's reputation in that regard and the whole purpose of some provocative postings, in this case Pound's satirical venture, another can of worms, was to provoke some reaction from General Adepoju, the connoisseur and mighty devourer of modern poetry in general and Pound's Cantos in particular with a special interest in insurrectionist lines like these.

In another thread, my most respected Bro Biko recommending that “They (the Taliban) should now join states in the US by legalizing marijuana because it is known to be medicinal and therefore should not be forbidden as Haram. Legalization of marijuana will bring in wealth and employment opportunities for many families as they recover from the war and the government can tax their profits.”

I have no choice but to take him to task for saying this. In the name of the alchemy whereby base copper is transmuted to gold – to goodness and humility in the name of peace, love and harmony, I can only remind my Dear Bro that Tony Blair ( or B-liar if you will ) once said that the UK military was in Afghanistan in order to stave off the flooding of the streets of London ( and Glasgow?) with cheap heroin, since long ago, giving rise to songs like this: Needle of Death

I first met Harvey Tristan Cropper in the autumn of 1976, shortly after returning to Stockholm from a few months in Upper State New York and that very first time I visited him at his studio and up to now, I'll never forget how serious he looked when he told me, “Cornelius, I know that you're a scholar and a curious muthafucker and that's why I'm telling you this and you had better listen good: There's a thing called he-or-in and it's so good – you should never go near it!” Up till today, I have never seen this thing ( apart from once, when I saw it in the movie “French Connection” ) and I have never been near it. And I will forever be thanking dear Harvey...

In 1979 when I walked through Kungsträdgården with Brer Soyinka, on the way to his hotel (The Grand Hotel) maybe because of the enormous Afro he was sporting then and his casual wear ( safari) we were approached by one of the layabouts who plied the area. “What does he want?” - Some expensive shit. 1985 someone tried to sell me some “ brown” What's that? It's good, I was told, about 100 times stronger than hash. Now , my deputy rabbi had told me " it's a commandment to be happy", but who in his right mind would want something like that? Better to be like Mujahid Dokubo here

Bottom line: We should listen to Professor Gloria Emeagwali – just as the Almighty told Abraham: “ Listen to Sarah!”

Virus-free. www.avast.com

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

For the past four days, al Jazeera's Inside Story has been about the latest developments in Afghanistan

99.999% of the proud people of Afghanistan identify as Muslims and all of them are probably familiar with Surah Al-Ma'idah Ayat 51 which reads

“O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. “

From that point of view, many of those who worked with the West as translators, interpreters etc could be regarded as traitors, albeit , according to the Taliban , these people will be granted “amnesty”...

It has just been announced that Uganda is the first African country that will be receiving refugees from Afghanistan, 2, 000 of them...

How should confirmed Europhiles and Islamophobes respond to these views of

George Bernard Shaw on Islam and Prophet Muhammad :

1 “If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam.”

2. “I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him – the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity.”

3. “I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”

Sir George Bernard Shaw in ‘The Genuine Islam,’ Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Cornelius,

Al Jazeera, a Middle Eastern network, which cannot be accused of Europhilia, is also running an investigative film titled Afghanistan: No Justice for Women of the consistent series of assassinations of women in that country simply for going to work, bombings of schoolgirls for being in school,  a no-work-for-women and no-school-for- women policy that is described as having been a staple of Taliban policy, leading to conclusions that those assasinations  were carried out by people of such crazy persuasions, inflaming fears of such inhumanities continuing under the Taliban.

Al Jazeera is also running a report stating that the UN reports that the Taliban is going from house to house flushing out in revenge attacks those who worked with the US and NATO.

Al Jazeera is also running a report from Amnesty International about a recent massacre carried out by the Taliban.

As for Muhammed, I would like to  be better educated as to why he is admirable.

Thanks

toyin

On Fri, 20 Aug 2021 at 22:21, Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cornelius,

Al Jazeera, a Middle Eastern network, which cannot be accused of Europhilia, is also running an investigative film titled Afghanistan: No Justice for Women of the consistent series of assassinations of women in that country simply for going to work, bombings of schoolgirls for being in school,  a no-work-for-women and no-school-for- women policy that is described as having been a staple of Taliban policy, leading to conclusions that those assasinations  were carried out by people of such crazy persuasions, inflaming fears of such inhumanities continuing under the Taliban.

Al Jazeera is also running a report stating that the UN reports that the Taliban is going from house to house flushing out in revenge attacks those who worked with the US and NATO.

Al Jazeera is also running a report from Amnesty International about a recent massacre carried out by the Taliban.

As for Muhammed, the little I know about him does not impress me deeply, particularly when compared with Jesus and the Buddha, who were pacifists who had no desire to control anyone while Muhammed was significantly a person who modeled the current prominence of Muslims trying to force others to live according to ridiculous and inhuman Islamic laws.

I am also unimpressed by his theft of the childhood of the little girl he insisted on marrying while there were mature women to choose from, a stance possibly feeding the destructive culture of marrying female children in Northern Nigeria.

The Koran certainly contains much that is sublime and Islam is magnificent in many ways, but so is Judaism with its origination of the theory of divinely inspired genocide. You are not going to find Jews enacting such horrors today, but the negativities of the founder continue to re-emerge  in Islam.

I'm interested in serious engagement with these issues. I'm not interested in sweeping claims of Islamophobia, the uncritical liberal approach when one at times points out the limitations of Islam.

If you disagree with my views, please present a personal point of view, justified by logic and evidence. Please don't direct me to any links to read. It's also good if you are able to sustain your own views and not rely on Ken for help.

Thanks

toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/cb6a7cab-b977-4412-9df2-99e7bce97182n%40googlegroups.com.

[Harrow, Kenneth]

cornelius knows more about islam than most anyone i know. let me just butt in with two quick observations:

first, i regularly read aljazeera now since it has the best africa coverage of any journal i know. i can't say i see any real glaring biases that make the coverage unreliable. it is very convincingly thorough; they care about all the regions, they give the stories, say, on the latest in the sahel, which is ALWAYS disturbing but so regularly terrible no one else bothers if a mere 37 people from niger get slaughtered. they care.

there is nothing particularly "middle eastern" in their approach that i can see. anyway, i recommend it.

secondly, just for myself: i do not regard the accounts of religions that are ancient to be realist,historic accounts to be read literally as if it were reportage. they are narratives forged over many centuries, to be read hermeneutically. all other readings i find reductive and useless.

as for the genocides carried out by the israelites when they entered canaan, they are read today as models for something we are not, something we do not countenance, something part of our tradition we need to come to terms with, but in the end to find some way to surmount, an obstacle to any decency in our faith.

overcoming obstacles is maybe the best a religion can demand of its adherents.

in a sense, these historical figures of moses, jesus, mohamnmad, are equally valuable to us when read not as literal historical figures, but as locations for us to probe and speculate and reflect upon. i.e. to interpret, not to accept as real or literal. that is the only way i could imagine even talking about them.

what is most profitable about these religions is how people took the biblical or quaranic accounts as occasions for interpretation: talmudic, hadith, commentary....all occasions for fabulations and reflections that can be endless and very enriching.

ken

kenneth harrow

professor emeritus

dept of english

michigan state university

517 803-8839

har...@msu.edu

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com <usaafric...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 5:55 PM

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/CAGBtzfOPP67GX%3DC-iCe2s69KMKRh-Fi95YwHzDXD0LhCDAH7kA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju,

From me, it's Salawat : Allahumma Salli ala Muhammadin wa ali Muhammad !

As your own friend and your own enemy, you don't have to read or quote any book on or off the internet, nor do you have to click on any links because neither your reading or not reading and understanding what you read, nor your clicking or not clicking on any links, not even this one, is going to change my reality or that of Prophet Muhammad salallahu alaihi wa salaam

I'll address your other concerns, after the Sabbath. 

[Oluwatoyin Adepoju]

Beautiful-

''secondly, just for myself: i do not regard the accounts of religions that are ancient to be realist,historic accounts to be read literally as if it were reportage. they are narratives forged over many centuries, to be read hermeneutically. all other readings i find reductive and useless.

as for the genocides carried out by the israelites when they entered canaan, they are read today as models for something we are not, something we do not countenance, something part of our tradition we need to come to terms with, but in the end to find some way to surmount, an obstacle to any decency in our faith.

overcoming obstacles is maybe the best a religion can demand of its adherents.

in a sense, these historical figures of moses, jesus, mohamnmad, are equally valuable to us when read not as literal historical figures, but as locations for us to probe and speculate and reflect upon. i.e. to interpret, not to accept as real or literal. that is the only way i could imagine even talking about them.

what is most profitable about these religions is how people took the biblical or quaranic accounts as occasions for interpretation: talmudic, hadith, commentary....all occasions for fabulations and reflections that can be endless and very enriching.

ken''

how would you define or describe ''reading hermeneutically?''

thanks

toyin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/usaafricadialogue/BL1PR12MB519152C1789805E2EC62CA8EDAC29%40BL1PR12MB5191.namprd12.prod.outlook.com.

[OLAYINKA AGBETUYI]

Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------

From: OLAYINKA AGBETUYI <yagb...@hotmail.com>

Date: 22/08/2021 14:01 (GMT+00:00)

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: The Return of the Taliban inAfghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

The reason Muhammed is admirable is that his genius instantly recognised that religion is hegemonic politics writ large.

Prophet Muhammed learning from what happened in Coptic Egypt and Ethiopian knew it was a matter of time before Christianity overran his country and subordinated the intelligentsia to the erstwhile centres of Christianity in Rome, Constantinople, Egypt and Ethiopia, hence the need to pre-emptively institute a parallel faith of similar structure ( that was also why a detachment of about 100 early Muslim converts were sent as advance guard by Prophet Muhammed to Ethiopia, as I learned in a radio programme during this year's Ramadan.)

This was why Prophet Muhammed was accommodating to Christianity & Judaism in particular.  The UAE in particular are in this regard following in the footsteps of the Prophet in the accommodation they granted their 13% Christian minorities a situation that has turned Dubai into the foremost global centre of interfaith pilgrimage. ( many of my adult learner undergraduate students do not feel they are full undergraduates until they have fulfilled this self- imposed obligation)

An extremist section of Northern Nigerian Muslims with the murderous interpretation of Islam need to learn a lot from the national orientations of Dubai and that was why I said northern Nigerian leaders should send such extremists to such countries for debriefing and de- doctrination, provided they have not murdered due to Islamic religious excess, in which case they should be subjected to the full rigour of the penal criminal code as provided in the Nigerian Constitution. 

  Such extremist Northern Nigerian Muslims would have regarded UAE nationals as fake and inferior Muslims-in their inexplicable arrogance- if they were from South West Nigeria, in view of their religious moderation, except for the fact the Dubaians are of lighter skin colour, in view of which such extremist northern Nigerian Muslims know they would be the laughing stock of the whole Muslim world.

OAA

Let those who believe in majority rule ensure that it is practiced at the centre in Nigeria come 2023

Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------

From: Oluwatoyin Adepoju <ovde...@gmail.com>

Date: 20/08/2021 23:05 (GMT+00:00)

To: usaafricadialogue <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: The Return of the Taliban inAfghanistan Amidst the Inescapability of Western Civilization

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (ovde...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule | More info