1611: A Conversation with Bolanle Awe
Toyin Falola
Nigeria: A meeting of the minds
Good Friday, April 14, 2006
"Our people need fresh ideas, fresh perspectivesŠa new vision of and
for Nigeria. A Nigeria of which people can be proud."
Professor Bolanle Awe in conversation with Toluwanimi Olujimi
Professor Bolanle Awe, the Pro-chancellor and Chairman of Council,
University of Nigeria, Nsukka (UNN), and professor of History
(D.Phil.Oxon) at the University of Ibadan, is one of Africa's leading
Historians and academics. She was born on January 26, 1933 and attended
elementary school at Holy Trinity School, Omofe -IIesha and St James
Primary School, Okebola Ibadan between 1939 and 1945 respectively.
Between 1946-1951, she attended the prestigious St Anne's School,
Ibadan where she obtained the Cambridge School Certificate. Afterwards,
she gained admission to Perse School for Girls, Cambridge for an 'A
levels' course in English, History and Latin between 1952 and 1954.
Professor Awe then attended St Andrews University, Scotland, graduating
with a Master of Arts (MA) degree in History in 1958. In 1964 she
obtained a D.Phil. (History) from the University of Oxford England.
Professor Awe has been a lecturer in the Department of History,
University of Ibadan, 1967-1980. At the time of her appointment as
Lecturer at Ibadan, she was considered one of the youngest academics on
the African continent. She has been Senior Lecturer University of
Lagos, School of African and Oriented studies where she was also a
Senior Research Fellow of the Institute of African Studies between 1969
and 1976. She was appointed Phelps-Stokes Fellow African Lecture series
in the United States of America in 1973, and a Professor of Oral
History Institute of African Studies (University of Ibadan) in 1976.
Awe became an Associate Fellow, Centre de Salvador Bahia Brazil and a
visiting Fellow, Queen Elizabeth House, University of Ibadan in 1982.
She was also the Director Institute of African Studies, University of
Ibadan between 1983 and 1991.
In 1986, she represented University of Ibadan as the Penn/University of
Ibadan Exchange Lecturer in Philadelphia. She is the Founding
chairperson, Women Research and Documentation Centre, University of
Ibadan (1987). Between 1988 and 2002, Professor Bolanle Awe was a
member of the Advisory Board Africa Journal of the International
African Institute London. She is a member of the Founding committee,
International Federation for Research in Women's History; has been a
member of the Advisory Board, Gender and History, London. She has also
been on the Board of African Gender Institute, University of Cape Town,
South Africa.
In 1995, Professor Awe was a visiting Fellow, Harvard Centre for
Population and Development, Boston, USA. Awe has also served on the
Council of International African Institute, School of Oriental and
African Language, London between 1999 and 2002 and as Nigeria Country
co-coordinator, John D and Catherine T. Mac Arthur Foundation between
1994 and 1999. She is today on the Boards of Director and Trustees of
many Non-Governmental Organisations [NGOs], particularly those focusing
on Women.
Prof. Awe has held several public appointments, notably as the First
National Secretary, Nigeria Association of University Women
(1962-1963); Commissioner for Education (1977-1978); and Commissioner
for Trade, Industries and Co-operatives in Oyo State (1977 and 1978).
She was a member of the Governing Council, the Nigerian Institute of
International Affairs, [NIIA] (1978-1984); member of DAWN's
(Development Alternative for Women in a New Era) (1988-1994);
chairperson, Nigeria National Commission for Women (1990-1992); Awe has
been a member, Negotiation and conflict Management Group since 1999.
She was chairperson, University of IIorin Teaching Hospital Management
Board (2000-2004), member, Governing Council, Ajayi Crowther
University, Oyo (since 2004) and member, Governing Council, Adekunle
Ajasin University, Akungba between 2001 and 2003.
Professor Awe has written a total of 15 Journals/Articles and is the
author of many books on history and women's issues. Among those
awaiting publication include The Impact of Colonialism on Nigeria
Women; The Feminist Saga in Nigeria: The Story So Far. She is married
with children
ABOUT TOLUWANIMI OLUJIMI
Toluwanimi Olujimi is a Lagos based journalist. She has considerable
experience in the print media and has written extensively on Nigerian
politics, education and women's issues.
THE INTERVIEW
Nigeria's history of political ineptitude is typically blamed on poor
leadership. What is your assertion?
Nigeria is in the predicament that it finds itself today, because we
have not made a concerted effort to elect the right people into
leadership positions. And this is a mistake of long standing. By the
late 1950s and early 1960s, when Nigerians [of my generation] were
coming back home from various parts of the world, particularly from
Europe, we had a clear vision for Nigeria and for nation building. One
way we thought we could achieve our goals was to contribute, through
our different callings and professions, to the development of Nigeria.
If you were an academic, you tried to excel in the academic community
and your chosen vocation. Some of us who returned home from Europe
thought that if we worked as hard as our colleagues abroad, everyone
would be successful. And so, we left politics to the politicians.
Could the point not be made that by leaving politics to others many
believe were, credential wise, not up to par, the so-called "best minds
of your generation" are partly to blame for what followed - a tragic
failure of leadership?
That is a bit harshŠwe rightly or wrongly believed that the
politicians were the people to effectively stir the ship of the state.
I think that was where the problem first began. We believed then that
those in leadership positions were up to the task, and because of that,
left the work of government, of directing the fortunes of this country,
in the hands of people who really did not have the competence, the
understanding, and the heart. They also did not have the political
savvy to see that Nigeria excelled among the comity of nations. They
were often not sophisticated in the affairs of politics, both
international and national, and yet they came into power anyhow;
unfortunately, they ended up making a mess of things. And by the time
people realised what was happening, it was almost too late.
Many pundits suggest that the military's series of interventions in
Nigeria's history, created the culture of political ineptitude you have
alluded to; the "cults of mediocrity" at various levels of government?
I agreeŠinitially, we were running a kind of democratic government
right after Nigeria's independence. And in some cases, leaders existed
who were sensitive to our needs; however, the advent of the military
worsened the situation. At a stage, the military believed it could
effect a change, and I must also say that there were some of us who
also agreed with the notion. Very soon, however, it dawned on us that
this was a mistake; of course, things turned out to be even worse than
with previous administrations, because the military possessed firearms
with which they got what they wanted, or didn't have. And this made
those in the military feel that they were not responsible to the
people. There were civilians working with them; technocrats and
professionals who were commissioners, and so on. But in the final
analysis, whatever decisions that were made, were essentially made by
the military.
Ethnicism is another factor that appears to have derailed Nigeria's
progress. What is your opinion about this political scourge?
It is my contention that ethnicism is another factor that has been
responsible for the nation's decline. Increasing ethnicism became the
reason for the first coup, and of course, that coup bred even greater
ethnicism, which eventually resulted in the civil war.
The painful truth is that people of my generation have fueled this
problem in the country. When we were attending school, especially those
of us who studied outside this country, nobody really thought of 'X' or
'Y' as Igbo, Yoruba or Hausa. I remember that most of my friends with
whom I schooled in Britain were not Yoruba. They often spoke Igbo to me
or in my presence, and I had to remind them that I didn't understand
their language. Once they knew that, they stopped, and apologized, and
that was the end of it. But when I came back home just before the civil
war, or around the time it broke out, it became apparent that a major
issue up was the way we had begun to distinguish ourselves as Yoruba,
Hausa and Igbo. And gradually, our thinking processes became
conditioned by political opportunists. Our (non)acceptance of other
people's points of view was also conditioned by the civil unrest in the
country.
For instance, whenever anyone puts forward an idea, the general
thinking becomes, 'Ah ha! he or she is saying this because s/he is a
Hausa man, and is thinking in terms of his or her own groupŠ" and not
because such a person has reasoned out the idea intelligently. We
always feel that the advantage of his or her tribe is always the
foundation of anyone's ideas. And because of that, the openness to
objectively examine the substance of what anyone is saying; the
acceptance of general principles, becomes more and more difficult. This
has always been the dangerous trend in the country, meaning, in some
cases, that whenever a person brings up a good idea, we are unable to
accept it wholeheartedly, because we tend to think that there is a
catch -'he is thinking of his people.'
Or when somebody does something wrong, what we hear is -- they are
persecuting him, because he is a Yoruba man or an Igbo man, rather than
a candid examination of the nature of his sin, and the need to make him
pay for it. So, gradually, we have developed different yardsticks for
different people, and this is a most unhealthy practice. It is not good
for the development of this country where what we want and need are the
best people, the best possible brains to work for our country's
development. Our parochial way of thinking has demoralized us to a
great extent.
Mixed into this murky ethnic milieu, is the issue of Federal Character.
Some believe it was designed as a system to foist mediocrity on the
rest of the nation. What is your take on the issue?
I disagreeŠone must first understand the historical underpinnings of
what we refer to as "federal character" and "catchment area." Federal
Character as a policy came about because of differences in levels of
achievements and education among the general populace. We felt that
since we had a democratic society, the impact of this must be through
equitable and equal participation. One way to achieve this lofty goal
was to make provisions for those with lower levels of education to
equally have an opportunity to become involved in development of the
nation. This Nigerian style Affirmative Action is being practiced in
different parts of the world, notably the United States and India, with
great success. As a remediation measure or policy, it is designed as a
temporary intervention. It is set up to make it possible for
disadvantaged states or areas to catch up, to feel that they are part
of the system. It is not, however, meant to be a permanent thing.
A concern is that in the Nigerian case, Federal Character may undergo a
"political metamorphosis into an entitlement program" - and a tool to
entrench power in certain areas or peopleŠ
Well, it was not designed to create a situation whereby people relax
and feel that because they happen to come from one 'X' ethnic group or
'Y' ethnic group, they have the right to leadership. I mean, it is a
situation where those who have not caught up to the rest of the nation
must make a serious attempt to do so, and should always bear in mind
that they are enjoying a concession. The nation should also emphasize
this so disadvantaged groups are moved to buck up.
I also realize that this concession could be abused, and it is being
abused. But then it is important to understand how this situation now
affects the younger generation; for instance, in the case of entrance
examinations into secondary school. A boy writes an examination, scores
grades that are above average, but does not gain admission, because he
is from a particular state or ethnic group. It does not require a great
deal to see how demoralising this state of affairs can be for the boy.
It also sends the wrong signal to the boy. He begins to feel that he is
a second class citizen in his own country, and for a young child, it
could be very destructive to his attitude and to the country whose
future he is.
Lives are not lived in a vacuum; somehow, in time, that boy's rage will
tell on the nation...like is happening now. And so, we have to find a
way to make giving certain groups concessions a temporary thing. Still,
I would argue that "Federal character" has its benefits. For instance,
I know that children often come home on holidays from federal
government colleges to say to their parents: "Oh! I never knew that
people from 'X' group go to school; I thought they were all beggars!"
You know, Federal character can be a good educational experience for
all children. For those who become enlightened as to the actual state
of our people, and for those who may not have gotten into federal
government schools if these concessions were not made available to
them.
Nigeria is currently beset with the political conundrum of
"Godfatherism." Some believe that it is a Nigerian political
idiosyncrasy that we must get used to. Others believe that is one of
the greatest threats to Nigeria's burgeoning Democracy. What is your
assertion?
Our so called 'Godfatherism' is an aberration and a danger to the
development of our democratic system; it should not in any way be
encouraged or tolerated. Its common feature is the overbearing
influence of an individual or individuals who, because of the often
questionable wealth that they control, are able to dictate the choice
of political leaders in the country. Their action makes the voters'
role in the electoral process irrelevant, and negates the idea of the
people having any input in their governance. It makes nonsense of any
claim to a democratic government as moneybags have hijacked the
political machinery at all levels.
These Godfathers have also contributed, in no small measure, to the
political conflicts that have characterised this fourth republic. They
are akin to 'area boys' and are a distinct breed from political
advisers who, because of their experience and knowledge of the
political terrain, are in a position to advise political aspirants.
These 'Godfathers' are, in reality, thugs who see politics only as a
financial investment from which they hope to profit, often denying the
populace, in the process, the social benefits which a responsible
government should provide. Certainly, for democracy to have a firm root
in this country, we have to ensure a fair electoral process (no rigging
absolutely) with the full backing of the law. Touts and hoodlums will
become scarce in a polity that consciously eradicates poverty and
provides jobs for able-bodied men and women whom these 'Godfathers'
press into their service.
What role has oil played in our morose economic condition? Many believe
that this resource has become some sort of curse; what is your opinion?
Yes, the period of the oil boom - a period that should have been a
source of great strength to us actually became our weakness. We
concentrated so much on oil and neglected other sources of revenue
throughout the country. Yes, oil was yielding much more money than the
leaders could handleŠto the extent that our Head of State [Gen. Yakubu
Gowon, rtd.] was quoted as saying that money was not our problem, but
how to spend it. And looking back now, I think that was a most terrible
statement, because even with all that was coming in then, we were still
generally poor as a country. Not enough development had occurred at the
time.
Technocrats might have offered the proper advice; however, I'm not sure
the military was listening. So resources became mismanaged, and the
outside world shared the proceeds, as it were, with them. Gradually,
then, corruption crept in with the presence of the military until it
became endemic. And it was not just at the highest level. Today, our
children subscribe to corrupt practices, which is the saddest part of
it. Children now believe that it is not possible to get into schools
without the aid of bribes. Where does that thinking get us? No need to
work hard, or even at all. Bribes will do the work, the talkingŠand
pretty soon all we have is a nation of corrupt illiterates. When all
the oil money is gone, I suppose every one of us will abandon our
destroyed nation, and troop off to live abroad!!! So, this is the state
we now find ourselves in; getting out of it is going to be very
difficult.
You paint a dire and gloomy tapestry of the scale of corruption in this
country. Is there any hope of containing this beast?
It's not going to be easy to be rid of it, because the mess now has so
many faces, it has become a hydra-headed problem! Even so, I think that
if we have a leadership of example, then we shall have begun something
good. I think the bad leadership in the country has encouraged
corruption. But if there is a strong and determined battle against
corruption, and anyone behaving wrongly is dealt with, the leadership
will succeed in mobilising the people. That is more than 50 per cent of
the problem resolved.
The degree of pessimism and apathy is quite crushing among the Nigerian
polity. How do we instill hope in the public?
I have spent a long time pondering the same question: how do we
mobilize our people to believe that there could be a better world?
There is a great need to cure ourselves of our deep skepticism that
nothing is likely ever to be right in Nigeria. And it's a tough job
that has to start on all levels, beginning with the schools. We have to
create a new vision of Nigeria. The people need a new vision of
Nigeria; a Nigeria of which people can be proud, and which allows us to
raise our heads in the comity of nations. Then, people will realise
that it is possible to turn things around. The situation of Nigeria for
now is really desperate. We are a despised people in the comity of
nations. Whether we like it or not, people look down on us, they don't
respect us. I mean, how many of our leaders are asked to speak to
gatherings of intellectuals; how many of our leaders does the world
really listen to? You have to travel out of this country to realise how
little respect we have. When we go through foreign immigration, one
look at our Nigerian passports and we are subjected to all kinds of
humiliating questions and even searches. It is assumed that you are
fraudulent, merely because you are a Nigerian.
I almost do not like to travel out of the country. And when I must, I
prepare myself about having to go through humiliating experiences
again. "Condition your mind to the inevitability," I tell myself, "And
be patient; don't become annoyed, don't become upset because of it." So
we should let our people realise that this is how bad, how low we have
gone. This is not good for us, and it is not going to help us in
anyway. That's why, for instance, all kinds of fake items, including
fake drugs are brought into the country. Of course, our people
collaborate with the foreigners who do this. The worst second hand,
even tenth-rate cars are imported into the country, because the world
feels that anything goes in Nigeria.
So you have pirate copies of books, tapes, and so on; is it because we
are not entitled to the original, to genuine goods? These are things
that are not allowed to happen in other African countries much smaller
and poorer than we are. And if people commit wrongs, they are severely
punished for their offences. Nigerians have to begin to respect
themselves, and demand the best not only for themselves, individually,
but for every other Nigerian; and then the rest of the world will begin
to respect us.
You have, very clearly, articulated the depth of the pathology, the
magnitude of the problem. Where do we go from here?
We need to begin with the children. Particularly, we have to let our
children understand that the present situation does not have to exist;
that there are other countries where people look up to the leadership,
where people aspire to be like certain individuals in leadership
positions. We have to mobilize the whole country for this, through
education, and awareness and reorientation programmes. But it's not
going to be an easy task. It's been tried before. But without the right
points - the right leadership, continuous planning, determination, it
might end up a lost cause. It also has to be a continuous exercise.
The administration's anti-graft crusade has been greeted in certain
quarters with great fanfare. Many Nigerians, however, appear cynical
about the war on corruption believing that there is a great deal of
rhetoric, yet a seeming absence of commitmentŠ
I think I have to believe that the war is sincere, because (laughs) as
things are, I will really become depressed. Very often, when I talk
about the situation in the country, my husband, for instance, tells me,
'Don't get hypertension because of Nigeria.' So, I have to look at the
bright side of the situation. And the fact that various government
agencies are trying to do something about it, even at the risk of their
livesŠyoung men and women in NAFDAC, EFCC, and so on; these people are
sticking their necks out, and that gives me a lot of hope. But I am a
skeptical optimist. I'm not sure that government can do as much as it
may want to do, because there are obstacles constantly working against
it. And these may even be forces within the government itself. There
are vested interests outside the government, as well, and all this can
sabotage the efforts of government, if it is not fiercely determined.
The good thing is that change can come about in a day, a week, or a
year. As long as one is determined, one can bring about change. This is
the reason why one has to be hopeful about our situation, but one also
has to be cautious; one cannot afford to become over-excited. Change is
an effort that must be sustained. And one really hopes that this
government, this leadership wants to effect change. Because, this
ailment known as corruption is nothing you can cure overnight.
One of the reasons there is skepticism about the resolve of the
anti-corruption crusade is the fact that the most corrupt Nigerians
have not been probed or arrested outright. What is your perspective?
Well, this might be so, though I don't have all the facts. But I've
also heard of people who have been accused of one thing or the other,
and after a time nothing is heard anymore about their cases. And this
has bred a lot of skepticism among Nigerians -- that 'X, Y, Z' did
something wrong, and we all know this for sure, but they are never
penalized. So there is a problem here. The situation has become so bad
thatŠremember the assassination attempt on the life of Mrs. Akunyili?
It is as bad as that; her life was at risk! Someone trying to achieve
something for the good of the country... And it would almost have to be
an irresponsible government that would carry on as if nothing happened.
And I'm sure it has its feelers; it has its information about the
counterforce to know how to get around it. Still, that the former
Inspector-General of the Police could be arrested, that a man at that
level can be brought under trail by the EFCC; I think, perhaps, there
is a new lease of life.
The most prosperous nations on earth have made great strides in terms
of gender equality. Can one surmise that Nigeria's poverty in some ways
lies at the feet of its deplorable treatment of women?
I think this country has not been very fair to women because of our
history. First, we have to understand that traditionally, women have
had an input in the development of this nation. They have always had
faith in what goes on in their country.
But with the colonial experience, a very different idea of the position
of women evolved. That experience put women in second class positions
as citizens in their country; it took a long time before women could
gain hold, before they were allowed to attend higher institutions of
learning, and a long time before they were even allowed to earn degrees
from those universities. The British came here with a particular
mind-set, transferred it here, and the women lost out in the process.
For instance, one of the signatories to the first agreement the British
people signed with the people of Ibadan was the Iyalode of Ibadan. But
when it then came to establishing the local government administration,
she was left out, and that happened in very many other occasions.
By independence, the number of women in leadership positions was very
few. Women's political party wings have been very much ghettos for
women - who want to be part of the action, but are pushed to the side -
"you can do your own thing there, but you do not belong in the
mainstream." So, our thinking could not really affect what went on in
the mainstream, was not considered important for policy making. This is
what has been happening. But there have been attempts to abolish women
wing practice in Nigeria. There are a few women participating in the
mainstream, but we have not fully arrived, yet.
Increasing access to educational opportunities for oppressed groups is
often a key strategy in developed parts of the world for addressing
past discriminationŠ
Women have, and continue to suffer set backs education-wise, because
the emphasis has always been on educating the boy-child. For a long
time in Lagos, there was only one secondary school for girls while
there were four for the boys. There was therefore greater opportunity
for boys; you had a higher number of boys in schools than girls. And of
course, people became used to thinking that boys would grow up to work,
while girls would get married, bear and rear children. So, girls were
very rarely trained.
Even, if they had the opportunity for exposure, for participation in
development, many women did not have the qualifications to do so. That
was the problem; but this issue is gradually being addressed. I mean,
in the Western Region, we have secondary schools for girls alone,
federal government schools; and then there are secondary schools where
you have both boys and girls, so it is apparent that more spaces for
girls have been created in secondary schools than even for boys, in a
real attempt to redress the situation.
But, of course, there were other problems influencing the kind of
professions girls could go for. In schools, they were not being taught
the core sciences, or even mathematics, so they couldn't delve into the
technological field. It's only now that we are seeing a lot of women in
science and technology fields.
It appears from what you are saying that there was a deliberate attempt
to stifle the growth of womenŠ
Yes, there was the belief that women must perform the traditional roles
of child bearing, child rearing and teaching, perhaps as civil
servants; of course, that was what most of the women in Britain were
doing at the time. It was much later that provisions were made for
women interested in the sciences to go across to male institutions like
CMS Grammar School for science lessons.
If one examines the issue of reproductive health which is extremely
important, one finds that the provision of facilities for women is
inadequate. I'm referring to the areas of ante-natal, post-natal,
obstetric, and gynecological care, in particular. Often, women in a
labour have to be carried physically since there are no available
stretchers or ambulances. There are bad roads, and lack of proper
transportation services. Some women who develop complications die in
the process of being moved to better clinics with the specialist
doctors.
So you see the problems in the area of reproductive health and
procreation where women play a very significant role, yet are not very
well provided for. The proper facilities ought to be provided for them
to carry out this important responsibility without undue difficulty.
There is the general belief that women can manage somehow, even where
there are not enough provisions for them, and that is not right or
unfair.
In what arenas do you believe women have made their presence felt?
In the economic field, in most parts of the country, women contribute
greatly; they are the majority buying and selling in our market areas.
But what are the conditions of the markets? Some of the big markets,
until recently, did not have the basic facilities expected to make life
in the open air market bearable. These women are there from morning
till evening; sometimes there are no toilets, there is no water, and
there are no proper facilities for child care. Women and their children
sit under the scorching sun, or rain, all day. And for some of them who
want to go into big businesses, there are no loan opportunities; they
may not be able to get credit facilities as the banks tend to demand
collateral. More has to be done for women, I believe. I really respect
the fact that our women achieve so much despite what they have to put
up with.
Unfortunately, women seem to have accepted their situation; but in
spite of their societal handicap, they are determined to make it, and
they do make it. They educate their children and they themselves
provide for their needs. They tell you that it is not about the men;
they are going to make it possible for themselves to succeed.
So, I admire them a lot. When you go out early in the morning to Bodija
(Ibadan), for instance, you will see women with loads on their heads,
moving in and out of traffic; I always say, 'Look, our women are
hardworking.' Even on their own, they somehow are still able to bring
up their children.
Women are more than half the population of this country. Does it now
make economic, political and strategic sense to galvanize them to play
a more crucial role in the political affairs of the nation?
At the National Assembly, I think there are a few women; in the House
of Representatives, there are a few, but still insignificant in number
compared to the men. In some State Assemblies, you find that there are
no women representatives at all, which demonstrates that politically,
women are not faring well. They do not have the input necessary for the
role they want to play in government, to making decisions that affect
their lives. They have no say in that. And the saddest aspect of this
is that when it comes to voting in representatives, the majority are
for men coming from women who campaign for them, as well. But I think
part of the problem of course, is that our women are not organized
enough; that they also do not understand yet, the amount of power that
they have. I don't think they have that understanding of the enormity
of power that they wield. When women do recognize that, there will be a
change. But without an organized platform, women are used and later
dumped by men in politics.
What is responsible for the negative reaction to female politicians in
this country, particularly at a time when women in such diverse parts
of the world such as Liberia and Germany are taking up the mantle of
leadership?
I think that when women who have the ability to deliver pursue
politics, they are not likely to be put in the spotlight or advanced by
their political male peers. I mean, what are the women already in
politics doing? What impact are they making in any debate of national
significance, in any debate, at all? It means that merely having
numbers is not the point; we need women who have the ability to
articulate problems, to make their own stand known, to argue, to debate
and to be well informed about the issues that come before the National
Assembly. It is my impression that not enough of the women are kneeling
in that direction. Again, I think those who have the competence are not
coming forward in enough force.
And of course, for elections, women do not have access to the kind of
money usually spent in politics. It is an enormous gamble; they may
spend all the money they have, and still not be voted in, and then they
are in trouble.
Isn't part of the problem male and even female bigotry and the
entrenched patriarchal traditions in most Nigerian ethnic groups that
is making it almost impossible for Nigerian women to emerge as leaders?
One can make the controversial statement that the Nigerian female
achiever may very well not have the understanding, the co-operation and
support of the men in her household -- father, husband and the
generality of men folkŠ
Well, some of the women who are into politics have their husbands'
support; their men do not necessarily work against them. But I know
that women usually have strategies for gaining the support of their
spouses or other men in their lives. These men eventually come to
accept the fact that the women in their lives are going into politics.
But the generality of men may be skeptical about the capability of
women. If a woman shows that she can deliver the goods, however, they
will accept and toe her line. We can see this in women who are leaders
in various institutions of government and various corporate
organizations today.
If a woman knows her job, nobody is going to say, 'She is a woman; I'm
definitely not going to listen to her." Once a woman can deliver the
goods, in the local government administration, for instance; improving
the state of the markets, making sure that there are drugs in
dispensaries, and making sure that roads in the rural areas are
motorable, making people realise that she is doing all this because she
regards it as her mission, people will respect her and they will accept
her.
We need women at all levels of government, in order to affect
government policies in our favour. And I think that since women are
more affected by these policies, they would be more relevant at local
government levels. Now that more money is going to be made available at
the local government level, they should be able to do much more than
they are doing at present, to alleviate the suffering of people.
Apart from the oil and banking sectors, Nigeria's economy can be
described as moribund. What prescription do you subscribe to revive the
economy?
I'm not an economist, but I think our local industries are suffering;
the government is not giving them enough support to survive. I really
don't understand what the owners of these local industries are doing,
because I see some of them abusing privileges given them by government
regarding foreign exchange. There are certain infrastructures that
government should really provide -- water, electricity, good
road-networks reduce overhead costs at the end of the day, and are
still lacking.
Also, government encourages the importation of goods that really should
not be imported. And I definitely object to the way we import textile
materials; at present, it's the silk scarf and the damask that is all
the rage!!! These materials come from some where in Asia, and what this
means is that we are keeping those people in jobs, supporting their
manufacturing sector, while our own people have no jobs, and our
manufacturing sector is destroyed.
I have had on occasion gone to the 17-day market called the 'Oje'
Market where traders come from all over with their wares. It is
basically an Aso-Oke market; but it's now a ghost-town, because people
now go for the damask and silk head-ties from Asia.
I went to church during one of the festive seasons, and later, counted
the people wearing Aso-Oke headties; I think there were about six or
seven people, in all! And all because of our excessive lust for things
that are foreign. I do not know why that has to be encouraged. I think
it should be the business of the government to educate the people about
some of the reasons people at home have become jobless. This preference
for imported goods is an excellent way of making that our very own
industries, and therefore, our own people are continuously out of
job!!! There is a need for us as a nation to cooperate with the
government to make sure that foreign items do not continue to flood our
markets.
Also, we should take great pride in our own products; for now, we have
little pride in what we produce in this country. And if people are
desperate for damask material, perhaps our local industries should
start looking into producing them. It may not start off being the best
quality, but demand will ensure improvement, and we can wear whatever
we have produced here. The point is to decide to support our own. Are
we ready to do this, or do we continue to ape the rest of the world, is
the question. We must understand that we can never be as good as the
original, only second rate. Our permed our hair has never looked like
that of people whose hair is naturally straight. Our own styles are
beautiful. We should be proud of what we have, who we are, and other
people can ape us!!! This is what developed countries have done.
Nigerians are often the first people to deride "made in Nigeria"
products, preferring foreign made products insteadŠ.
Yes, I've been to places like India where they had only two types of
cars, both made in India. These cars were not particularly attractive;
they were ugly, but our Indian friends told us, "the Prime Minister
drives one of those, and anybody who dares import cars pays so heavily
in duties that they think twice before doing it. And they had
television sets in those days, black and white, when we already had
coloured television sets here in Nigeria. My friend said: "Until we can
produce coloured television, we are not going to have coloured
televisions in our homes. You know, we have to train ourselves to
accept that we don't have to imbibe western things when we cannot
produce western products ourselves." I think it's a question about
doing much more to educate us about these things.
The other day, a Chinese market was opened in Lagos, which is part of
what I'm talking about. What led to the opening of a Chinese market in
Nigeria? What are they producing that is so attractive to us. If we are
producing something and the quality is not good enough, let's keep on
working on it. We will improve on it, and nobody will deride us for not
getting it right.
The quality of education in this country may account for this; clearly,
it has taken an incredible dive. What can be done to save this sector?
The basic problem that I see is that we are not encouraging those in
the field of education. Some of us in academics have children who have
sworn never to come into it, because they have seen what a struggle it
has been to survive in education. So, there is a lack of encouragement;
even when the impression is created that our salaries have increased
manifold, it's never enough. But much more than that, I think, are the
poor facilities in our institutions of learning. We have extremely poor
facilities; very poor. The classrooms are overcrowded, there are no
books in the libraries, some of the schools are in dire need of tutors,
and these are not conditions that are satisfactory.
Teachers are over-stretched. You talk of general under-funding of
education in Nigeria? Well, teachers/educators are the hardest hit. And
those are the basic problems we have. When there is a lack of
facilities, it means good quality output is impossible. There was a
programme we were involved in with teachers, and a woman stood up and
said: "I have over 100 students in my class. How am I expected to
teach, and then attend to each student's problems, deal with them on a
one-on-one basis?"
What do you say to this situation? I heard of a medical school where
even microscopes which should be one per student, became one to two
students, then one to three students, one to four, and finally one to
five students. Then, the teachers realised that they were not really
teaching.
The Tertiary Institutions are probably the hardest hit by years of
mismanagement and neglectŠ.
My sentiments exactlyŠour tertiary institutions are over-populated;
the lecture rooms are over-crowded to the extent that students have to
peep from the windows to listen in to lecturers. There is also scarce
accommodation; students are squatting, and there are non-students, as
well, squatting in the rooms with them. There are also the tragic and
dangerous incidents of cultism. Then, we have the problem of inadequate
government allocation to education that even the National Assembly is
not taking seriously. If this situation is taken seriously, the
ridicule that we had of late over the Prof. Steve Osuji N55m bribery
scam would not have taken place.
And I would have thought that the members of the senate would have
realised that it would take even one government action to turn around
the situation. They should also see beyond the issue of bribery in the
case that I mentioned, and try to appreciate the seriousness of the
problem. Bribes should never have to be given before allocations due
our educational institutions, any institution are distributed.
And then we now have the tradition of sending our children abroad for
an education; well, it is the right of anyone who chooses to do so. But
rather than regard this situation as an example of one's high
socio-economic status, we should realize that sending children outside
the country for a good education is really a result of our failure to
be successful on our own. Even parents unable to afford this, go to all
lengths, and try all means to send their children abroad to school.
Again, we are helping countries that are already developed to develop
their country the more. It does not say much about us, and we lose the
respect of the world when our every need, even education, cannot be
met, except outside out own home!
Somebody went to a party, I think in the US, and the place was full of
Nigerian professionals with very high qualifications, all living in the
states. And he said to himself -- these people should be back home
helping to rebuild our country. But where are the opportunities for
them; what can tempt them back? It is not a matter of telling people in
the Diaspora that it is their duty to come home. The reasons they fled
the country in the first place must be fully addressed.
Even those who may be willing to come home, do so, but go back again,
because the environment here is not conducive for them. The facilities
and resources are not available, so they return where they came from. I
recall convincing one young man a doctor to come back, and he did. But
each time he saw me, he said, you persuaded me to come back, but there
are no available drugs in the hospitals if my baby needs it! This man
is a pediatrician; I think his parents eventually advised him to go
back, and it is not likely that he will again return home. But this is
only because of the lack of facilities here.
What is your assessment of government's University Autonomy Bill?
With autonomy, we can achieve many things. If it has to be with the
governance of the universities, if it has to do with the ability of
people in academic communities to appoint or choose their own
candidates as their leaders, then, I think the bill is right. We don't
have to keep on canvassing, to keep going round government circles to
make sure we receive our due appointments. But I think it will be good
if government allows universities some autonomy in this sense. It
should not be a case of whoever pays the piper dictates the tunes, all
the time. Everywhere in the world, the government has the first
responsibility of supporting education.
The government should not say -- if you want to run your institutions,
and choose those who will oversee your affairs, then you will have to
be ready to fund yourselves, including paying the salaries and
allowances of your appointees. I think that is wrong. The autonomy
should include the freedom of universities to teach what they want, to
be able to express opinions freely, without fair or favour, and to
examine issues objectively, without pressure and persecution and
otherwise from any quarter. Universities should be allowed to choose
those people it is felt will exercise constructive leadership based on
insider knowledge of these people and their academic capabilities.
This should be in recognition of one's contribution to knowledge and
recognition by one's peers, not just in Nigeria, but all over the
world. People should agree that an individual has made such and such
contributions to knowledge, and should be recognized for it. Autonomy
should revolve around that, and it should be the responsibility of
government to provide a platform for this. But I will like to add that
in other nations of the world, institutions don't just depend entirely
on the government. They also go out to source funds. They may have
special programmes set up in areas of excellence, and they will go out
to source for funds from industries, foundations, and so on. They might
even embark on projects that will generate money for them as a back up.
It's not a question of sitting back and folding arms, and expecting
that government will do everything. The universities must also go out
and see in what ways they can meet some of their needs.
Let me steer the conversation in the direction of intellectual freedom:
There has been an outcry amongst university lecturers that Democracy
has not yet fully brought forth or restored the intellectual and
creative freedoms that were crushed under the kleptocracies of the
pastŠ.
I think within the conference of universities, intellectuals cherish
the ability to speak their minds on myriad issues. There have been
cases, unfortunately, where some professors have been victims of
censorship, and worse - intimidation, harassment or outright
persecution - because they have taken a particular position concerning
government actions. Many in the intellectual community are repulsed by
this development.
Š.And on standards and quality: Some institutions had the
accreditation of certain programmes withdrawn; the Medical School of
the University of Ado-Ekiti was closed down, for instance. The welfare
of students was not taken into consideration, many critics allege, when
that decision was handed down. What is your view on this development?
I think that in the case of the Medical College, it seems they were not
really prepared for the programme; and I think, in all honesty, that
they couldn't cope, because money was not available to them. Though it
was run for two or three years, nothing much was accomplished; the
administration could not cope. But the interests of the students have
to be taken care of. Places should be found for them where they can be
absorbed, especially if they are qualified by JAMB, and were on proper
admission. It may be decided that additional tests be given them to
ensure that they are able to cope with the resultant academic load. The
university should not neglect their needs.
The government recently announced plans to license up to 100 private
universities in the country. Are we further eroding the quality of
education with this measure? Is the answer to Nigeria's political,
economic and social development not lie in improving the quality as
opposed to the quantity of institutions?
Well, one way of looking at it is this: if there are more universities,
qualified students who could not be placed in universities today will
certainly gain admission. That's one way of looking at it. Also,
universities are not all the same standard. In a place like Britain and
America for instance, you have the elite universities - the Ivy Leagues
-- that are at the top. Then you have the mid level, and then third
level, and so on. There are about four, five levels; all good
universities, but when the employer looks at your certificate, he
immediately knows where you have come from and what your worth is.
That's the second thing that is likely to happen with an increase in
universities.
I hope, however, that if there are more universities in the country,
standards will not degenerate to the degree that graduates then become
unemployable. This is dangerous for the nation, because if someone who
has gone through a lower-level school enters the civil service and
becomes a permanent secretary, even if he is transferred to the federal
service with a reasonably good case, he still might under perform those
he meets there who are from higher-level schools, simply because of the
wider range and exposure they have received. The new appointee might be
senior to his new staff, and this would instantly create problems.
Nigeria imports most of its food. What can be done to rejuvenate the
agricultural sector?
I think it is important that we encourage people to return back to the
land to farm. But we cannot do that unless certain infrastructures are
provided. The roads must be motorable so that produce can be brought
into towns and sold. The various tools required for farming have to be
provided, such as fertilizers and extension services to improve
agricultural methods. Government should also make it a top priority to
help farmers improve their production technique. It is necessary to
talk to farmers to understand what other problems they face, and what
further measures are required.
Government should also guarantee a good price for farmers' produce so
as to encourage continuous production. If produce is not bought at
reasonable prices or there is a shortage, farmers become discouraged
and may decide to give up farming. There are various ways these useful
people can be helped to dispose of their goods. A central depot may be
established where all farmers can bring their goods, and rather than
let abundant produce rot away, transport arrangements should be made
available to help with their disposal
They should equally be shown ways goods such as tomatoes can be
preserved. We used to have factories producing tomato puree. Now,
tomatoes rot away on the farm. We should look into ways of transporting
them to the factories to be preserved and put to good use, also oranges
and other fruits and perishables. Similarly, various agricultural
institutes should be encouraged to establish a link with the farmers to
ensure the quality of their produce. Farmers should be encouraged to
realise that produce is not only for direct consumption, and that
oranges and other fruits can be processed other uses.
A particular state governor's answer to developing the agricultural
sector, at least in his own state, was to "import" white farmers from
Zimbabwe to fix things. Some met the news of the relocation of the
white Zimbabwean farmers with curious fascination. Others were
outraged, calling it yet another example of our "colonial mentality."
What is your assertion?
The particular case of Kwara State, and I have tried to understand
it.... I certainly feel uneasy about bringing Zimbabwean farmers here,
particularly when we know of their history of racism in Zimbabwe, their
unhappy relationship with African farmers, farmers of African descent
in Zimbabwe. But, perhaps, the idea is that their farming methods might
be useful to Kwara State. However, I hope the government is aware of
the experience of Zimbabwe where the indigenous people were
dispossessed of their lands. The methods expected of the Zimbabweans
will be of setting up farms as examples of how we can develop what we
have here; there is, perhaps, a need for them in that sense. But the
Zimbabweans should not be allowed to come here and set the stage for
our people to become unprotected land-wise and fall victim to
large-scale farmers. So, the government should really examine what is
happening in Kwara state, very closely.
There is the case of the tobacco farmers, as well; I think what I
understand the British American Tobacco Company as saying is that they
are helping our own tobacco farmers, particularly in the long run, to
improve on their farming methods. But I have uneasiness about the fact
that tobacco is a dangerous product in its use for cigarette
production; tobacco companies are getting a great deal of flack in
Western countries, and it is not really clear to me how they became so
well established in Nigeria.
Nigeria is blessed with an energetic, talented, but, alas, restless
youth. Many of my generation have lost hope in this country. How can we
look forward to a better and brighter future?
I think we should begin with the fact that everybody has the right in
this country to contribute to the process of governance, of development
at all levels. This brings the realization then that everybody has a
right to question government, beginning from the local to the federal
level; to inquire into the disbursement of allocations. How were the
monies spent, and on what? I think the fact that allocations to states
and local government are published now is a good thing. Elected
officials can then be made to account for their activities. The essence
is for the ordinary man and woman to start asking questions.
I don't know how we are going to be able to do things so that everyone
is given the sense of belonging, that we all have a right to be
whatever we want in this country. Also, it is in line to think that
those who feel marginalised at the moment should be given an
opportunity to exercise leadership. I believe that this will give them
a sense of belonging, and make them feel that they are part of the
nation. Two, it will be a learning experience for them; they will
realise that governance is not all that easy. And those who have been
exercising it should also realise that this world is not made just for
them alone; others want to participate in the leadership. But beyond
this, I think merit should be the watchword, which is not usually the
case.
Achebe Inter...@KWENU.COM
www.kwenu.com: Simply surprise yourself yonder!