Cheikh Anta Diop

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Today is Cheikh Anta Diop's birthday - some of the Diopists have been
celebrating that in Stockholm!

https://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&tok=ILstxByuwc-SlnwPzA8Tzw&cp=16&gs_id=9z&xhr=t&q=Cheikh+Anta+Diop&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Cheikh+Anta+Diop&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=fc7fe2b45ce62c75&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614

[OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU]

Cornelius,

Have you read Diop?

What do you think of him?

I have not read him yet. 

He is much lionised by Africa centred thinkers but he does not seem to feature much in the little exposure I have had to readings in African history.

I was struck to see a description in the Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge of the ancient Egyptians as Black. I did not know that idea had gained the level of acceptance reflected in such a museum.

In all, though, I get the impression that Egypt has little significance  for many Africans and that its significance is much stronger for Diaspora Africans.

What do you think?

toyin

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Compcros

Comparative Cognitive Processes and Systems

"Exploring Every Corner of the Cosmos in Search of Knowledge"

[Jaye Gaskia]

Toyin,

I am responding as myself, and not on behalf of Cornelius to whom you addressed your questions. I have read Diop, and i am a little familiar with him. Encountering him and his body of works was one of those moments that turned us into what we then called 'scientific Pan- Africanists' as opposed to what we saw as utopian pan africanism in the late 80s and early 90s!

However that is not the point of my response, the point of my response is on the bit about the relevance of Egypt to Africans. I get the impression that the very different character of ancient Egypt in contrast to its present Arab character maybe part of that reason. And it was to the unravelling of this dichotomy that Diop partly devoted his life and work!

Warm Regards,

Jaye

[Abdul Bangura]

My Most Honorable Mwalimu Toyin Adepoju, if I can humbly add my two cents, having been dubbed by the great Samir Amin and his colleagues at his institute in Dakar as a "Diopist," I am happy to share with you the following URLs to my essays that are online and also appear in print on the great Cheikh Anta Diop and his work. I also have many essays on him and his work that are in print but not available online, and I am working on a book manuscript to be titled Turning the Colonial Library on Its Head:  A Pluridisciplinary Analysis of Cheikh Anta Diop's Work,  Insha'Allah.

 

(1) Abdul Karim Bangura. 2012. "Fractal Complexity in Cheikh Anta Diop's Precolonial Black Africa:  A Pluridisciplinary Analysis." CODESRIA Bulletin 1 & 2:10-16.

codesria.org/IMG/pdf/CODESRIA_Bulletin_1_2_2012.pdf

 

(2) Abdul Karim Bangura. 2012. "The Nexus among Democracy, Economic Development,. Good Governance, and Peace in Africa: A Triangulative Analysis and Diopian Remedy." Africa Peace and Conflict Journal  4, 2:1-16.

www.apcj.upeace.org/issues/APCJ_Vol4_Num2_WebOnly.pdf

 

(3) Abdul Karim Bangura. 2012. "From Diop to Asante: Conceptualizing and Contextualizing the Afrocentric Paradigm." Journal of Pan-African Studies  5, 1: 103-125.

www.jpanafrican.com/docs/vol5no1/5.1FromDiop.pdf

 

(4) Abdul Karim Bangura. 2010. "From Cheikh Anta Diop to Ali Al'amin Mazrui: A Pan-Blackism Conceptualization of Black Power." Proceedings of the Black Power Conference in Trinidad and Tobago.

www.trinidadandtobagonews.com/news/BlackPower-Panels2010.pdf

 

[OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU]

Thank you very much, Jaye.

I would like to understand the difference between " 'scientific Pan- Africanists' " as opposed to "utopian pan africanism [of] the late 80s and early 90s!"

Can you sum it up?

On your point about Egypt, but the African-Americans have eagerly embraced ancient Egypt ad even modern Egypt defines its tourist image in terms of ancient Egypt.

Even more striking, at the heart of the history of the body of knowledge represented by Western esotericism is the undisputed and openly visible influence of Egypt. 

Central to Western esotericism is the work of Hermes Trismesgistus, whose ideas seem traceable ultimately to Egypt. Hermeticism is very significant too for the work of Isaac Newton as evident from even a casual glance at modern Newton scholarship.

Also, at the heart of the most influential magical school in the modern Western history, The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, is a fantastic reworking of ancient Egyptian ritual and cosmology, an approach taken forward magnificently by Aleister Crowley, one of the most significant religious figures of the 20th century, in my view. 

Yet, Africans do not seem to take to heart the iconic Egyptian Book of the Dead, Akhnaton, the famous revolutionary pharaoh, the awesome   Egyptian architecture,which the Western esoteric Rosicrucian school of AMORC uses as its central architectural  style at its US headquarters  or to the the art of Egypt,  whether  in scholarship, the arts or even on platforms like Facebook, while Diaspora Africans are using ancient Egypt as a centre  of identification, along with the Yoruba origin Orisa tradition and Voodoo, as in this superb voodoo group-Supreme Voudun-African Cosmology-Hathor Centre for Massive Metaphysical Research ( note that Hathor is an Egyptian deity) and the mother site Supreme-Voudun and the wonderful Facebook page Ayibobo Nan Ginsen M'soti .

Ayi Kwei Armah did publish Osiris Rising but I wonder if African writers and artists  show much, if any interest in Egypt.

I am also curious as to why Egypt's advanced civilisation does not seem to have influenced other African civilisations.

I understand there are small pyramids in the Sudan. What could the significance of that be? 

I am puzzled as to why writing was not developed to greater level in Africa, beyond Egypt and Ethiopian Geetz script  if I am correct, in spite of the achievement of Egypt  

Was if the difficulty of crossing beyond Northern Africa?

I would like to share some fantastic Facebook images that indicate this fascination with Egypt in the African Diaspora-

toyin

[OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU]

Thank you very much, Bangura.

I have accessed the two unlinked PDF files but am sorry to say the linked ones did not open.

I will look quickly through the accessable PDFs, holding off a detailed reading till later,  and distribute your response as a guide to Diop.

I see from Googling Diop that his study seems to a small industry and that anyone who wants to be informed on his work has ready resources for that online. 

How would you place Dop in relation to Martin Bernal? Are they making a similar pint? Does Bernal extend Diop?

I experienced a reminder of your interdisciplinary scope in seeing your essay   discussing Achebe's work in terms of fractal geometry "Fractal Complexity in Mwalimu Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart : A Mathematical Exploration"

Biko Agozino also adapts this interpretive view to Achebe's There Was a Country "There Was a Country develops in cyclical or fractal patterns with self-similarity, infinity, recursion, fractional dimensions, and non-lineal geometry in the sections found in the four parts of the book rather than follow a chronological historical timeline in the structuration of the narratives. "

 thanks

toyin

[Abdul Karim Bangura]

Mwalimu Toyin Adepoju, not to give away too much, in Turning the Colonial Library on Its Head: A Pluridisciplinary Analysis of Cheikh Anta Diop's Work in progress, I discuss how Martin Bernal was influenced by and sought to extend Diop's work. He was also influenced by his grandfather, eminent Egyptologist Sir Alan Gardiner. But because Bernal discombobulated Mary Lefkowitz's perfunctory Not Out of Africa, he was later vehemently attacked, even though he is the grandson of the great Gardiner and a distinguished professor of Near Eastern Studies.

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Toyin,

My half a kobo's worth ( if that currency is till in existence):

http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/2012/12/30/re-cheikh-anta-diop/

On Dec 29, 7:42 pm, OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU <tva...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Cornelius,
>
> Have you read Diop?
>
> What do you think of him?
>
> I have not read him yet.
>
> He is much lionised by Africa centred thinkers but he does not seem to
> feature much in the little exposure I have had to readings in African
> history.
>
> I was struck to see a description in the Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge of
> the ancient Egyptians as Black. I did not know that idea had gained the
> level of acceptance reflected in such a museum.
>
> In all, though, I get the impression that Egypt has little significance
>  for many Africans and that its significance is much stronger for Diaspora
> Africans.
>
> What do you think?
>
> toyin
>
> On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Cornelius Hamelberg <
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> corneliushamelb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Today is Cheikh Anta Diop's birthday  - some of the Diopists have been
> > celebrating that in Stockholm!
>

> >https://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&tok=IL...

>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa
> > Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
> >    For current archives, visit
> >http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
> >    For previous archives, visit
> >http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
> >    To post to this group, send an email to
> > USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
> >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
> >    unsub...@googlegroups.com
>
> --

> Compcros <http://danteadinkra.wix.com/compcros>

[OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU]

Thanks, Bangura. 

Great congrats on your Protean cognitive metamorphoses, transforming into various disciplinary identities while integrating all these possibilities within a dynamic whole.

 Will also check out the other PDFs you were so good as to suggest. I  expect they will open in a browser.

On the reception of Bernal, it would seem that general scholarly opinion might have reached an uneasy accommodation of him.

What do you think?

The essays you recommended motivate me to commence building a Bangura, a Falola and a Paul Tiyambe Zeleza section of my library at Compcros. This will comprise all the works by these writers, books and articles. Such a collection will help in navigating the multi-disciplinary cognitive map/s represented by their works.

Hopefully such a collection will also be digitised like the wonderful Oxford Scholarship Online, although, in this instance, the online archive will also be organised in terms of cognitive maps that demonstrate correlations between various disciplines represented by each work of these writers in dialogue with other works of theirs, each writer's oeuvre being depicted as a cognitive cosmos, an effort to grapple with the multifarious expressions of existence in terms of dialogue across disciplines. Each of these cognitive forms will also be correlated with the universe of discourse beyond them, from which they feed and to which they belong.  

One could interpret these cognitive cosmographies in terms of the development, across time and space, of efforts to encapsulate the totality of being in terms of the necessary finitude represented by exploratory, expressive and  communicative forms-myth, religion, philosophy, literature, art, scholarship, science. 

Bangura, please could you help me with this question-in what way is the concept of the pluridisciplinary different from the multi-disciplinary and the interdisciplinary  even though I wont pretend to know how those other two are different from each other in the first place. Any enlightenment on that too from anyone would be deeply appreciated. 

Thanks for obliging. Please forgive any sense of seeming to want to be told what can one could find out for oneself, beceause the presentation by an expert provides a distinctive flavour that might not be available from more general presentations and suggests the ideational platforms of the expert's cognitive world, thereby potentially expanding one's understanding well beyond the original subject.

toyin

[Jaye Gaskia]

Toyin,

Thank you. Let me attempt a summation. What was refered to as 'utopian Pan Africanism', is the strand of Pan Africanism, that expresses a moral desire for African unity, including even arguements of economies of scale; but whichis silent on the class nature of that unity, and therefore on how class, class interests, and class struggles [particularly those of intra-class character] would inevitably affect the potential for and possibility of such Pan African unity in the age of capitalist imperialisms!

On the other hand what we sought to do with Scientific Pan Africanism was to situate the drive for Pan African unity in the context of class exploitation and class struggle; to derive from this, the possibility of actualising this potential within the context of a Pan African Class victory of the exploited and surbordinate classes. It meant that Pan African Unity would only be achieved within the context of a Pan African Revolutionary struggle, which may win its first tentative victory in one or a few countries, but which will only become definitively successfull in the context of continental victory of the revolution or political process [and revolution is only a concentrated political process].

This strand contended that the intra class rivalries among the African ruling class, not only among themselves with respect to control of national state power; but also with respect to competitive relationship with the ruling classes of the dominant countries; was of such a nature and dynamic that it would make the goal of a real Pan African Unity with integrated political and economic systems and structures almost impossible and unacheiveable.

Furthermore we took from history, the notion of the African origin of Human civilisation propagated by Diop, the derived analysis that if Human civilisation originated in Africa and among people of colour [which by the way is in synch with the theory of evolution of the human species in general], then it stands to reason, that factors other than pigmentation and race were responsible for the current state of Africa and the African.

 

One notion that i have found quite interesting, is the fact of the ease with which the African diaspora could embrace pan africanism, compared with africans back at home. It is probably largely due to the blunting of primordial cleavages by the common experience of slavery, deportation and the attempt to erase the African identity from the slaves.

 

Let me explain this with a recent development. In the Niger Delta struggle from the mid 80s onward, and particularly from the mid 90s; among those of us who found ourselves in the braod leadership of the then emergent resource control struggle and movement of the peoples of the Niger Delta; there was almost a neat divide with respect to prioritisation of Niger Delta identity over the ethnic identities within the Niger delta between those of us who were not nominally from the Niger delta and as such had no primordial attachments to any of the constituent ethnic groups of the Delta, and those of us who were from the Niger Delta, had primordial ethnic attachments, and were therefore in most cases [except for a few] were more likely to think and act in ethnic terms.

This was why for example the Ijaw Youth Council gained hegemony over the Chikoko Movement [a deliberately established Pan Niger Delta Resistance Movement]; and whose activities gave rise to and birthed the Ijaw Youth Council.

 

I am not sure how much i have been able to satisfy your quest.

 

Warm Regards,

Jaye Gaskia

[Abdul Bangura]

Indeed, Mwalimu Toyin Adepoju, pluridisciplinary, multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary approaches are different. I have made the distinctions among them in our book on African peace research methods published by the United Nations University for Peace Press and my book on African-Centered research methodologies published by Cognella Press. I also baptized an overarching method for all three in the first book: i.e. Multiplex Methodology. The UNUPP book is in hard and electronic formats and free of charge, and the CP book is in hard and e-book formats. The following are the URLs for the books:

 

Erin McCandless and Abdul Karim Bangura, Peace Research for Africa: Critical Essays on Methodology,  Geneva, Switzerland: United Nations University for Peace Press, 2007.

www.africa.upeace.org/documents/Peace_Research_for%20Africa.pdf

 

Abdul Karim Bangura, African_centered Research Research Methodologies:  From Ancient Times to the Present,  San Diego, CA: Cognella Press, 2011.

https://titles.cognella.com/downloadable/download/sample/.../1577/

 

Thanks, Bangura. 

Great congrats on your Protean cognitive metamorphoses, transforming into various disciplinary identities while integrating all these possibilities within a dynamic whole.

 Will also check out the other PDFs you were so good as to suggest. I  expect they will open in a browser.

On the reception of Bernal, it would seem that general scholarly opinion might have reached an uneasy accommodation of him.

What do you think?

The essays you recommended motivate me to commence building a Bangura, a Falola and a Paul Tiyambe Zeleza section of my library at Compcros. This will comprise all the works by these writers, books and articles. Such a collection will help in navigating the multi-disciplinary cognitive map/s represented by their works.

Hopefully such a collection will also be digitised like the wonderful Oxford Scholarship Online, although, in this instance, the online archive will also be organised in terms of cognitive maps that demonstrate correlations between various disciplines represented by each work of these writers in dialogue with other works of theirs, each writer's oeuvre being depicted as a cognitive cosmos, an effort to grapple with the multifarious expressions of existence in terms of dialogue across disciplines. Each of these cognitive forms will also be correlated with the universe of discourse beyond them, from which they feed and to which they belong.  

One could interpret these cognitive cosmographies in terms of the development, across time and space, of efforts to encapsulate the totality of being in terms of the necessary finitude represented by exploratory, expressive and  communicative forms-myth, religion, philosophy, literature, art, scholarship, science. 

Bangura, please could you help me with this question-in what way is the concept of the pluridisciplinary different from the multi-disciplinary and the interdisciplinary  even though I wont pretend to know how those other two are different from each other in the first place. Any enlightenment on that too from anyone would be deeply appreciated. 

Thanks for obliging. Please forgive any sense of seeming to want to be told what can one could find out for oneself, beceause the presentation by an expert provides a distinctive flavour that might not be available from more general presentations and suggests the ideational platforms of the expert's cognitive world, thereby potentially expanding one's understanding well beyond the original subject.

toyin

 

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 4:29 AM, Abdul Karim Bangura <th...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Mwalimu Toyin Adepoju, not to give away too much, in Turning the Colonial Library on Its Head: A Pluridisciplinary Analysis of Cheikh Anta Diop's Work in progress, I discuss how Martin Bernal was influenced by and sought to extend Diop's work. He was also influenced by his grandfather, eminent Egyptologist Sir Alan Gardiner. But because Bernal discombobulated Mary Lefkowitz's perfunctory Not Out of Africa, he was later vehemently attacked, even though he is the grandson of the great Gardiner and a distinguished professor of Near Eastern Studies.

Thank you very much, Bangura.

I have accessed the two unlinked PDF files but am sorry to say the linked ones did not open.

I will look quickly through the accessable PDFs, holding off a detailed reading till later,  and distribute your response as a guide to Diop.

I see from Googling Diop that his study seems to a small industry and that anyone who wants to be informed on his work has ready resources for that online. 

How would you place Dop in relation to Martin Bernal? Are they making a similar pint? Does Bernal extend Diop?

I experienced a reminder of your interdisciplinary scope in seeing your essay   discussing Achebe's work in terms of fractal geometry "Fractal Complexity in Mwalimu Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart : A Mathematical Exploration"

Biko Agozino also adapts this interpretive view to Achebe's There Was a Country "There Was a Country develops in cyclical or fractal patterns with self-similarity, infinity, recursion, fractional dimensions, and non-lineal geometry in the sections found in the four parts of the book rather than follow a chronological historical timeline in the structuration of the narratives. "

 thanks

toyin

On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Abdul Bangura <th...@earthlink.net> wrote:

My Most Honorable Mwalimu Toyin Adepoju, if I can humbly add my two cents, having been dubbed by the great Samir Amin and his colleagues at his institute in Dakar as a "Diopist," I am happy to share with you the following URLs to my essays that are online and also appear in print on the great Cheikh Anta Diop and his work. I also have many essays on him and his work that are in print but not available online, and I am working on a book manuscript to be titled Turning the Colonial Library on Its Head:  A Pluridisciplinary Analysis of Cheikh Anta Diop's Work,  Insha'Allah.

 

(1) Abdul Karim Bangura. 2012. "Fractal Complexity in Cheikh Anta Diop's Precolonial Black Africa:  A Pluridisciplinary Analysis." CODESRIA Bulletin 1 & 2:10-16.

codesria.org/IMG/pdf/CODESRIA_Bulletin_1_2_2012.pdf

 

(2) Abdul Karim Bangura. 2012. "The Nexus among Democracy, Economic Development,. Good Governance, and Peace in Africa: A Triangulative Analysis and Diopian Remedy." Africa Peace and Conflict Journal  4, 2:1-16.

www.apcj.upeace.org/issues/APCJ_Vol4_Num2_WebOnly.pdf

 

(3) Abdul Karim Bangura. 2012. "From Diop to Asante: Conceptualizing and Contextualizing the Afrocentric Paradigm." Journal of Pan-African Studies  5, 1: 103-125.

www.jpanafrican.com/docs/vol5no1/5.1FromDiop.pdf

 

(4) Abdul Karim Bangura. 2010. "From Cheikh Anta Diop to Ali Al'amin Mazrui: A Pan-Blackism Conceptualization of Black Power." Proceedings of the Black Power Conference in Trinidad and Tobago.

www.trinidadandtobagonews.com/news/BlackPower-Panels2010.pdf

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jaye Gaskia

To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

[OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU]

Fantastic!, Jaye.

Truly a journey through time and ideas.

This speaks volumes from a significant degree of African experience but I wonder if it is still universally accurate for all African countries:

"This strand contended that the intra class rivalries among the African ruling class, not only among themselves with respect to control of national state power; but also with respect to competitive relationship with the ruling classes of the dominant countries; was of such a nature and dynamic that it would make the goal of a real Pan African Unity with integrated political and economic systems and structures almost impossible and unachievable."

What do you think of the notion that some African countries like Botswana and Kenya are demonstrating a real sense of direction and quality leadership?

Is the South African situation not too complex to be encapsulated by that summation, for example?

I understand the emphasis of the centrality of class as very insightful. Its not possible to discuss political social formations in many contexts, particularly in terms of relative scope of access to resources as represented by economics and politics without reference to class.

Your points on the Niger Delta struggle is so moving and recalls Mobolaji Aluko's  account from his work there of of how villages/ethnicities/communities in that challenged region are keen to define themselves  as distinct  groups. 

May I ask how your educational and public history enabled you to link such a sophisticated understanding of and commitment to  what I would call political and economic development and active involvement in the Niger Delta struggle? Education in Nigeria? Ife? Abu?

Your observation on the Diaspora and the Pan African idea is striking. They have little  identification with any location in Africa-most of  that is long lost.

I also wonder if a good degree of the most innovative developments in the pan-African religious system of Ifa/Afa/Fa/Afan is from the Diaspora and its non-African enthusiasts.  To what degree is it fashionable for the better informed people in Nigeria for example to be seen practising such archaisms  which may be respected for their cultural value but are no longer in mainstream favour?

Does Diop's idea of the African origin of civilisation predate the archaeological(?) conclusion to that effect  which I understand is the current consensus? 

Did his work influence that consensus?

  He seems to be a blank spot in terms of prominent histories of people who contribute signally to reshaping global thought, to which class he would belong in pioneering  such a fundamental understanding now widely confirmed independently of him. 

My Google mail  spell check, for example, will not recognise his name and will flag it but will not do so for Foucault's name. That is one index of the degree of penetration of a person or idea into global consciousness.

Please forgive my peppering you with questions. One is eager and happy to learn.

toyin

 but I get 

On the Pan 

[OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU]

Thanks, Cornelius.

'I find it incredible that you are not familiar withCheikh Anta Diop. What and who else are you not familiar with? And mind you, reading his stuff is more important than reading some of the cockroach houses that others have written about him or built around him. So you had better get started.'

Truth to tell, bro, there is much I am not familiar with.

That is why I am keen to know what I need to know. 

Beautiful-'reading his stuff is more important than reading some of the cockroach houses that others have written about him or built around him'.

Thanks for addressing this-

" You are puzzled by how little influence Cheikh Anta Diop seems to have had in the English speaking world and of course  he continues to be better known in Francophone Africa and Diaspora. 

Of course it’s because he wrote in French and about an area that has little to do with British history and as to his methods which are still in dispute I intuit that once again it is the rigidity or simplicity of the logical positive approach, in contrast with the flowery kinds of French / continental philosophy we are treated to by the French speaking world  – which does not mean to say that Cheikh Anta Diop did not have an extremely tough time in getting his thesis approved as PH.D. material – it is now popularly believed that the reluctance in acknowledging his contribution to original knowledge was due to Euro-centric racism"

When I first entered the Blackwell bookshop in Oxford,the sight hit me hard, like a blow in the solar plexus. "Has my youth been wasted?!" was the question that flashed through my mind. 

This kind of sight, for example, of that bookshop, convinces me I really need an education and need to find one that will maximise me:

It is vital to be exposed to the universe of knowledge in which what one knows is an island.

So, thanks, Cornelius, and thank you very much for the links on your blog. I clicked on those links and had to gape in wonder at luminaries like Falola, Appiah, Harrow, like a child finding himself in a vast cathedral and wondering how he could ever belong within such a magnificent wonder.

Particularly memorable from the Google Appiah search you led me on .

Unforgettable-

"There’s the poetry of several spiritual traditions about God being a treasure that the seeker must find or a mystery that the seeker must solve. Some traditions say that He is to be found in the heart of the seeker, some others say that He is closer than the jugular vein of the believer and then there’s the whole cosmos out there, the starry dynamo of the cosmos & galaxies also to be found inside – and to be found more plentifully in material time out there."

....

Thought about these things some more as I skimmed this morning’s Dagens Nyheter which reports that Higgs’ particle is the greatest find out there, this year.

...

Finding Higgs’ particle is slightly different from digging in the bowels of history, although the motivation is the same: “ Seek and ye shall find” I guess that that’s what Cheikh Anta Diop did, with the tools available to him – and one of those tools is the imagination’s capacity for the interpretation of the material evidence and the more mystical elements – including language communications.

...

How far can we test the limits of rationality without talking about miracles? 

Fantastic:

'If we examine the matter even more deeply and discover that the very core of the human project as understood by our civilisation and its history, the philosophical discourse has itself been severed, and in its place a deliberate set of pseudo-sciences which stand in for critical thought , assuring that those who desire to think will not challenge the moral foundations of the society but simply while away their time in meaningless debates, about linguistics, literary textual post-mortems,, and hermeneutics....;

from the introduction of Shaykh Abdalqdir al-Murabit’s  “ For the Coming Man”

Do you have any idea where this happened:

 '...one occasion a student of a distinguished French University submitted a doctoral thesis which contradicted the new world view and found that his examiners accepted the validity of his thesis, and thus, by implication , his scientific methodology had demonstrated his case, only to be stunned by the decision of the French government to revoke his degree, something unheard of in a thousand years of French intellectual history.'

from the introduction of Shaykh Abdalqdir al-Murabit’s  “ For the Coming Man”

thank you very much for taking this trouble, Cornelius.

toyin

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Dear Oluwatoyin Adepoju;

What a very nice guy you have turned out to be ! I say that because I
had thought that you were going to lambast me for asking a Cambridge
man an such an impertinent question: “ What else are you not familiar
with?”

That was my own reaction when you asked “ Have you read Diop?”
I wondered, “ What kind of question is that? Next he'll be asking me “
Have you been circumcised?”

Well, a mortal man cannot know everything and when I go to the main
public library that's when I feel really little, small and mortal,
suffer a little anguish and panic looking at the shelves and then I
hear “Time's winged chariot hurrying near” and know that it is not
possible for a mortal to read all those books, not even if he lived as
long as Methuselah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_Public_Library

For twenty three years I lived a five minute walk from there and spent
considerable spare time there.

Same feeling every time I glance at a title on one of my shelves “
1001 Books you must read before you die – Ed. Peter Boxall”

You know as well as I do that there are Mw-alim-isismus who you simply
cannot ask that kind of question and not expect some whiplash. Could
even make you a permanent enemy. That's the sort of question reserved
mostly for The Omniscient - only HE can ask that kind of question.
You hear some heavy Ogun thunder & behold the naked wonder of sky
cracking with lightning from East to West and next thing you hear the
voice of thunder: “ Oluwatoyin ! Who told you that you are naked?
Have you been eating from the tree which I commanded you not to eat?”

Fact is we would all like to obtain the secret of eternal life if we
could. That would be real knowledge, wouldn't it?

I'm sure that the beginning of this video will bring a smile to Oga
Falola himself ( “One day for Africa”):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvLWF0hxoow

As I heard one of the greatest contemporary Talmud scholars say here
in Stockholm

- his exact words : “We all came from Africa”

So about knowledge I guess we've got to get our priorities right.
Quoting the Igbo's Bible, “ For what shall it profit a man, if he
shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”

As for me, I'm a softy. I was mostly brought up by my beloved Yoruba
grandmother and she too knew many of the psalms of David by heart and
used to quote him profusely. Cleanliness was a major concern.

About Cheikh Anta and all that you take a look at the continent and
you see spiritual warfare going on - the battle for the souls of
Africans and now it's mostly a proselytizing battle between
Missionary Christianity and al-Islam. The cultural unity is under
threat and may be subsumed by one or the other, peacefully or by force
of arms.

The continent has lost its unity of spiritual identity – assuming that
there was ever such a unity.

I believe that one of your contributions could be in unearthing this
thing known as
“ witchcraft” - demonised by both Islam and Christianity - just as
Judaism is also distrustful of all spirituality from the East:

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=Faith+and+Folly+-+Rabbi+Hillel&oq=Faith+and+Folly+-+Rabbi+Hillel&gs_l=hp.12..0i8i30.3424.3424.0.5015.1.1.0.0.0.0.80.80.1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.MEl0-rvM3ms&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=da51af1112b196c&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614

God willing, I look forward to meeting you in the UK this coming
year . I'm sure that things would happen then.

Sincerely,

http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/

On Dec 31, 2:31 am, OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU <tva...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Cornelius.
>
> 'I find it incredible that you are not familiar withCheikh Anta

> Diop.<http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=C...>

> What
> and who else are you not familiar with? And mind you, reading his stuff is
> more important than reading some of the cockroach houses that others have
> written about him or built around him. So you had better get started.'
>
> Truth to tell, bro, there is much I am not familiar with.
>
> That is why I am keen to know what I need to know.
>
> Beautiful-'reading his stuff is more important than reading some of the
> cockroach houses that others have written about him or built around him'.

> *
> *

> Thanks for addressing this-
>
> " You are puzzled by how little influence Cheikh Anta Diop seems to have
> had in the English speaking world and of course  he continues to be better
> known in Francophone Africa and Diaspora.

> *
> *

> Of course it’s because he wrote in French and about an area that has little
> to do with British history and as to his methods which are still in dispute
> I intuit that once again it is the rigidity or simplicity of the logical
> positive approach, in contrast with the flowery kinds of French /
> continental philosophy we are treated to by the French speaking world  –
> which does not mean to say that Cheikh Anta Diop did not have an extremely
> tough time in getting his thesis approved as PH.D. material – it is now
> popularly believed that the reluctance in acknowledging his contribution to
> original knowledge was due to Euro-centric racism"

> *
> *

> When I first entered the Blackwell bookshop in

> Oxford<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwell_UK>,the sight hit

> me hard, like a blow in the solar plexus. "Has my youth been wasted?!" was
> the question that flashed through my mind.
>
> This kind of sight, for example, of that bookshop, convinces me I really
> need an education and need to find one that will maximise me:
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> It is vital to be exposed to the universe of knowledge in which what
> one knows is an island.
>
> So, thanks, Cornelius, and thank you very much for the links on your blog.
> I clicked on those links and had to gape in wonder at luminaries like
> Falola, Appiah, Harrow, like a child finding himself in a
> vast cathedral and wondering how he could ever belong within such
> a magnificent wonder.
>
> Particularly memorable

> <http://www.princeton.edu/admission/whatsdistinctive/facultyprofiles/a...>from

> the Google Appiah search you led me on .
>
> Unforgettable-
>
> "There’s the poetry of several spiritual traditions about God being a
> treasure that the seeker must find or a mystery that the seeker must solve.
> Some traditions say that He is to be found in the heart of the seeker, some
> others say that He is closer than the jugular vein of the believer and then
> there’s the whole cosmos out there, the starry dynamo of the cosmos &
> galaxies also to be found inside – and to be found more plentifully in
> material time out there."
> ....
> Thought about these things some more as I skimmed this morning’s Dagens
> Nyheter which reports that Higgs’

> particle<http://www.google.com/search?tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Higgs'+particle&o...>

> >http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/2012/12/30/re-cheikh-...

>  image.jpeg
> 7112KViewDownload

[OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU]

Thanks, Cornelius.

Just  seeing this.

On the knowing or not knowing issue.

There is too much at stake. There is therefore no room for false dignity.

As it is,  I know  I am not educated.

I need education.

I am hungry. 

Moving:

"That was my own reaction when you asked “ Have you read Diop?” I wondered, “ What kind of question is that? Next he'll be asking me “ Have you been circumcised?"

By the way, circumcision might not be as taken for granted as you might assume. Some people see it as a  form of cruelty and denial of the right of the male child who is not in a position  to  give informed consent. 

”What made you mention witchcraft?  Very interested in your take on that.

Thanks for the film. It was fun.

I had to go that Stockholm site and was again challenged:

I need to live in a place like that Oxford bookshop. Nothing less than such a thing will do. 

Thanks for the evocation of the starry spaces within which the flame burns and the soul is luminous, pulled forth to the cosmic centre.

God bless you and yours and all the best for a great new year for you all.

Looking  forward to meeting.

Toyin

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

Dear Oluwatoyin,

Thirsty man and hungry for knowledge ( By the way, last night I
dreamt that Basher al-Assad and I had been captured and were being
held in captivity.... long dream)

As you say “ There's too much at stake” : Comparative Cognitive

Processes and Systems
"Exploring Every Corner of the Cosmos in Search of Knowledge"

As for me, I'm still at the very periphery of the beginning, will soon
be in kindergarten...

Consider this line from page one of Martin Buber's “The Way of Man”:

“Finally he asked : How are to understand that God , the all-knowing
said to Adam: Where art thou?”

( Cat Stevens//Yusuf Islam, nice guy, I attended some of his classes
at 146 Park Road, London,some time ago and he's a good Islamic teacher
but he too in one of his televised interviews betrayed the same kind
of fundamental misunderstanding of Torah – in his case he expressed
the conviction that (Heaven forbid) the Torah had been changed or
corrupted because according to his Islamic understanding the
Omniscient could not possibly ask or have asked a question such as “
Where art thou?”.

Since then it's possible that Cat has come to a better understanding
– as explained here on pages one --- onwards....

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Martin+Buber+:+The+Way+of+Man+&oq=Martin+Buber+:+The+Way+of+Man+&gs_l=hp.3..0j0i7j0j0i30.2474.20256.0.20654.36.31.1.4.4.1.405.3289.22j5j2j1j1.31.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.sVGWQBc_BjM&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=da51af1112b196c&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614

I have great respect for you Toyin Adepoju – you should have heard me
blowing your trumpet yesterday - but I'll explain when we meet, God
willing later this year. I'm free to roll in any direction at a
moment's notice to the East - the Middle East or the West but have
to spend some time in London before I take off on a long journey ----
As Ambrose Adekoya Campbell croons, “London is the place for
me” ( Part 3)

http://www.google.co.uk/#q=Ambrose+Adekoya+Campbell+:+London+is+the+place+for+me++%28+Part+3%29&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ei=hErjUPftJoOn4gTCm4HoCw&sqi=2&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=3c718fb4f51e84cb&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614

This knowing and not knowing business - which title would you prefer:
Oga or Mazi or Mwalimu
(from the Arabic root Alim which means scholar/scientist) Professor or
Algaba Adepoju ?

From my humble point of view 1000 Ph.Ds. is not much closer to
infinity than just one or even one half of a quarter of the knowledge
stored in the colonial archives of the British Museum.....

It's strange that you should ask me,”What made you mention
witchcraft?”

May I please, politely remind you that there's reason to believe that
investigating Witchcraft is one of your major concerns. If you don't
believe me, just take a look at this :

http://groups.google.com/group/usaafricadialogue/search?q=Toyin+Adepoju++-+witchcraft&start=0&

You're not the only one that's ambitious Toyin. My new resolution is
summarized in one word : Devekut :

https://www.google.se/search?q=Devekut+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

After I get “The Naipaul in us” off my chest, you won't be hearing
much from me in this forum, for a while...

A Happy New year to you Toyin and I wish you all the gifts that the
three wise men and the three wise women may bring to thee..

Sincerely,

http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/

On Jan 1, 5:08 am, OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU <tva...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Cornelius.
>

> >http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=F...

> ...
>
> read more »
>
>  image.jpeg
> 2201KViewDownload

[Cornelius Hamelberg]

PS. Sorry - very sorry :

Toyin, this link (a better link) answers the jailor's query about the
Almighty asking Adam :
" Where art thou?"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0415278295/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1/278-1295091-1996818?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_r=00YJEHY3KKXJXD0E6600&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=103612307&pf_rd_i=0806527897#reader_0415278295


On Jan 1, 9:46 pm, Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Oluwatoyin,
>
> Thirsty man and hungry for knowledge ( By  the way, last night I
> dreamt that Basher al-Assad and I had been captured and were being
> held in captivity.... long dream)
>
> As you say “ There's too much at stake” : Comparative Cognitive
> Processes and Systems
> "Exploring Every Corner of the Cosmos in Search of Knowledge"
>
> As for me, I'm still at the very periphery of the beginning, will soon
> be in kindergarten...
>
> Consider this line from page one of Martin Buber's “The Way of Man”:
>
> “Finally he asked : How are to understand that God , the all-knowing
> said to Adam: Where art thou?”
>
> ( Cat Stevens//Yusuf Islam, nice guy, I attended some of his classes
> at 146 Park Road, London,some time ago and he's a good Islamic teacher
> but he too in one of his televised interviews betrayed the same kind
> of fundamental misunderstanding of Torah – in his case he expressed
> the conviction that (Heaven forbid) the Torah had been changed or
> corrupted because  according to his Islamic understanding the
> Omniscient could not possibly ask or have asked  a question such  as “
> Where art thou?”.
>
> Since then it's possible that Cat  has come to a better understanding
> – as explained here on pages one --- onwards....
>

> http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Martin+Buber+:+...

>
> I have great respect for you Toyin Adepoju – you should have heard me
> blowing your trumpet yesterday -  but I'll explain when we meet, God
> willing later this year. I'm free to roll in any direction at a
> moment's notice to the East  - the Middle East or the West but have
> to spend  some time in London before I take off on a long journey ----
> As  Ambrose Adekoya Campbell croons, “London is the place for
> me” ( Part 3)
>

> http://www.google.co.uk/#q=Ambrose+Adekoya+Campbell+:+London+is+the+p...

>
> This knowing and not knowing business  - which title would you prefer:
> Oga or Mazi or Mwalimu
> (from the Arabic root Alim which means scholar/scientist) Professor or
> Algaba Adepoju ?
>
> From my humble point of view 1000 Ph.Ds. is not much closer to
> infinity than just one or even one half of a quarter of the knowledge
> stored in the colonial archives of the British Museum.....
>
> It's strange that you should ask me,”What made you mention
> witchcraft?”
>
> May I please, politely remind you that there's reason to believe that
> investigating Witchcraft is one of your major concerns. If you don't
> believe me, just take a look at this :
>

> http://groups.google.com/group/usaafricadialogue/search?q=Toyin+Adepo...

>
> You're not the only one that's ambitious Toyin. My new resolution is
> summarized in one word : Devekut :
>

> https://www.google.se/search?q=Devekut+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=or...

> ...
>
> read more »

[OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU]

thanks, Cornelius.

will be back on thew witchcraft stuff.

please give me some time to respond to the rest of your rich post.

happy new year bro

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